Communicating with and Supporting Fathers | Let’s Talk Kids

David Sims, Director of Stakeholder Engagement at Safe Babies Court Team, discusses Child Protective Services and how the system has been improved and can be further improved in its treatment of fathers; what initiatives exist for supporting fathers and how case workers can better communicate with fathers.

Learn more about FELLAS below!

https://pmch.org/fellas/ - FELLAS Fatherhood Program

https://www.njsafebabies.com/ - Safe Babies Court Team

 - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=itY28vyWt74

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Transcript

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Welcome to Let's Talk Kids. I'm Mary Coogan, president and CEO of Advocates for Children of New Jersey, and the host of Let's Talk Kids, a video podcast featuring conversations with policymakers, community partners and experts on issues impacting children and youth. And today I'm pleased to be joined by David Sims, who actually has retired after about 38 years, close to 40 years of experience in Child Protective Services. Both starting I guess as a caseworker, but also eventually becoming the area office director for both Union County at one point, and then Essex County. And also having done, four, maybe five years actually working in Trenton and in charge of program operations. So he has really worked in many parts of the state, but in all aspects of Child Protective Services in New Jersey. And currently, is the director? I wanna say stakeholder engagement. Is that your title, Dave? Yes it is. Okay. With Safe Babies New Jersey, which is Safe Babies Court team. Correct. Alright, welcome. Thank you. And I've also, I've known Dave for years because of cases we had here at ACNJ that I'd have to contact the division and also model court, and now as an ACNJ board member, which we were thrilled when you decided to join the ACNJ board. So today we're gonna talk a little bit about, or a lot about, fathers and their involvement in the child welfare system and maybe how it's different from moms involved in the child welfare system and some of the changes you've seen over the years. Maybe to start, could we talk a little bit about. How families become involved in Child Protective Services, just so that people understand basically how you go from being just, a family in the community to all of a sudden the state is involved in your life. Absolutely. Thank you, Mary, and it's my pleasure and honor to be here and share some of my insight about the child welfare system and about fathers in particular as we speak further. As we all know, State Central Registry is the hotline number for the Department of Children and Families, division of Child Abuse and Neglect. And a family or anyone can contact the hotline number and once they contact the hotline, their screeners identify who actually take calls and determine or assess whether or not the information that's provided reaches the level of abuse neglect. So initially, it's all allegations, and based on the screener and the assistance of his or her supervisor, they assess whether or not the information received about a family, about a child in particular reaches the level of abuse, neglect. Also, DCF has what we call child welfare referrals, so someone can contact the hotline and ask for support and services of which is not an allegation of abuse neglect, but it's considered a child welfare referral. Once that information received and there's no indication of abuse, neglect within that referral, then that gets assigned separately and not assigned as an abuse neglect report. So we have reports and we have referrals that come into the hotline. So a family, I could call the hotline for services for my own family if I'm in need, if I'm homeless or I'm just struggling. That is absolutely correct. You can call, the hotline, or a neighbor, a doctor, anyone else can call the hotline. Oftentimes, child welfare referrals are where folks are looking for supports to help them stabilize their situation within the family, and therefore the division is responsible for trying to assist them with a referral. And it could be done a couple of ways. One is called information and referral, so the screener can actually take the information. Contact and return back to the caller to say, here are some resources available to you within your community where you can receive counseling, for example. on the other hand, if anything is indicated within that information they received that reaches a level of an allegation of abuse neglect, then that gets assigned differently and not considered an IN R. How often do parents call on themselves? you'd be surprised. Parents call often on themselves because the state really only has one major number to call in order to, obtain services. Folks are sometimes fearful of calling the hotline because. The word is that this is abuse and neglect hotline number, and what may happen if I call this particular number. But once the community and others learn that DCF actually offers supportive services to families and not just investigate allegation, abuse, neglect, then they become more comfortable for reaching out to make that phone call. Wow. In all these years, I mean I, you hear people call, but that amount of people calling on themselves is sad. Absolutely. okay, so you have the child welfare, so I might have called him myself, but let's say my neighbor or the teacher of my kids has some concern about my children. That's the call to the hotline. That then goes to an investigator. That is the call, to the hotline, that goes to an investigator. And if it's determined that it gets coded as either abuse, neglect. Are the two major coatings that's provided to a report that comes in. Once the screening supervisor signs off, it is automatically transitioned or transmitted to one of the local offices within that community or catchment area of where the family resides, and it gets assigned to an investigator to investigate the allegations that are of abuse and neglect. And then does somebody come out from. An office near my house. Yes. an investigator or a child welfare worker is assigned that particular report from the community that you reside and come to your house to actually interview you in reference to the allegations that have been provided. They also continue the investigation by interviewing all other parties, such as the school, such as the doctor, such as anyone else who may be involved within the family, to try and get a thorough picture of what may be happening with this particular family, what the needs are, and whether or not there's some validity to the allegations that's presented. So let's say I currently don't live with the father of my children. How would he get involved in this process? Or would he even be involved in this process? A part of the investigation entails not only interviewing and assessing the situation of the home that the child or children reside, but to also reach out, identify and hopefully locate the father of those children to see if he is able to, assist with making a permanency plan, to assist with providing supports and to assist with. Bringing some stability to the family. So efforts are being made by the case worker or the investigator to reach out to the fathers, even if they don't live in a home. Sometimes children are residing with the fathers and the mother's not in the home, so the responsibility is to reach out to those mothers as well. So you mentioned what's a permanency plan? Good question. We're now taking this investigation further to the point where a child may have been removed from the home. There are times when the division, the caseworker, continues to work with families in home. And stability. Permanency is there because the children remain in the home. There are times when the abuse, neglect is so serious or severe, and the child or children are unsafe. And if that's the case, there may be a need to remove a child or children from their bio parent and place them in a foster home or a resource home. Foster home and resource placements are temporary placements. Once that occurs, the initial plan and goal is always reunification. The division is working with the parent and the children to provide supportive services in an effort to have the children reunited with their bio parent. If for some reason after a period of time that cannot happen, another permanency plan needs to be identified. It may be assessed that with all the supports and services, reunification is not feasible. Therefore, the law requires the division to come up with identifying another permanency plan for the children. Two major goals and permanency plans for children if reunification is not feasible are kinship, legal, guardianship, or adoption. Okay. So the permanency plan is really how we're gonna get to whatever the goal is of the case. That is correct. And then. Everybody's supposed to be working towards that. Everybody's supposed to be working diligently towards a reunification plan. in the beginning of the case, all efforts should be put forth, all services should be identified to support a reunification plan for children to be reunited with their bio parents. So let's say I have three kids and whatever happened is serious because from what you're saying is in most cases, kids are not removed from their parents. Correct? but let's say my kids have been removed. I'm not with the dad, The division has an obligation to go find him. And he's gonna be part of the permanency planning? Absolutely. Okay. Division has an obligation to try and find out first who the father is, if that information has not been shared or identified. And the division are, is currently using different techniques, not only the information from the parent, from the mother, but the division also initiates what we call a legal litigation search. In an effort to find that father and continue to utilize social media, Facebook to identify that father in an effort to. Assess whether or not that father is able to provide a permanency plan or participate in a permanency plan for his children. So what happens if I say he's just really a bad guy and I don't think he should have anything to do with our family? And that happens occasionally, and the division has an obligation to not accept that at face value. It is the division's responsibility to actually make their own assessment of the father and his ability to parent, or his ability to participate and provide a permanency plan for his children or child. In your experience, how well do we do that? Consistently, we have made tremendous. Progress and improvement with the searching of dads. Social media has come into play and Facebook that has contributed. Initially it was just a legal litigation search and occasionally we would locate the fathers. and unfortunately, some of the addresses were not correct, but it was the response, it is the responsibility of the vision to go out and assess each and every address that comes up on a litigation search. So with that in mind, the division has made tremendous progress and identifying and locating fathers and of course, have now begun to make tremendous progress in not only locating but engaging fathers, which is so critical to me. What you're describing seems so simple. Engaging fathers. But my sense when you're saying tremendous progress has been made, it's not always so simple. So you wanna talk a little bit about what are some of the reasons that make it difficult to engage fathers or to bring them in to the situation if they have not been part of the family on a regular basis? Absolutely. and it's not an easy process. It is a very challenging process for many caseworkers. And some of the reasons might be that there are some biases that still exist and have exist for years about fathers, fathers are not trusting. We don't know where this father has been and what he has done over the period of time, and is it safe to bring him back into the home? All these questions come up and make it challenging for caseworkers to actually believe that this might be the best opportunity to reach out and bring this father back into the child children's lives and back into the family household. There's some times when fathers can be very aggressive in their communication styles and can be some caseworkers become fearful of communicating with them directly. There are times when fathers are constantly moving around and it becomes very challenging to go from address to address. From what you may find from a litigation search to search for a father if you do not believe that he's committed or wants to be a part of the family or child's lives. And then there are times when fathers are fearful of the system as a whole. What will happen to me if I actually come forward and meet with the division? Will I get arrested? There's some bad history that may have existed within his life and it's fearful for the father to come back to the table to say, that happened in the past, but I am willing to be a part of my child's life in any way I possibly can. So those are some of the challenges that caseworkers face. They don't sound like simple challenges. It's not simple. So talk a little bit about, when you're saying fathers. Some are aggressive, right? I think you're being kind. I'm sure some of them are very angry, especially if, the father of my kids wasn't even living with me says, look, I didn't do anything wrong. It's Mary who did whatever hurt our children, and I'm just here to help. And yet maybe they're not viewed as helpful. So you are absolutely correct, and there are many fathers who are angry, and how we as caseworkers communicate with them can make a major difference. And they can. I did use, I used the word aggressive, but. When you're speaking to a father who feels that he's being accused of something when he was not even in the household or has been away from the family point of extended period of time, then he may be expressing himself in a very angry way to the caseworkers. And the caseworkers sometimes are having challenges of learning and understanding how comfortable it is to communicate or should I communicate with them. So what are some of the challenges or things that caseworkers have to do that maybe fathers might feel? Is affronting to them or unreasonable to them, and maybe it's just part of what the case worker's required to do, right? To check them out or to make sure they're okay or so, which can cause that anxiety or anger on the part of the father and the caseworks saying, I'm just doing my job. Caseworkers have to do the background checks. And of course, anytime you're asking for, information about social security number, birth dates and things of that nature. Fathers or others become very protective. And first thing is, why do you need that? And begin to feel as though you are now trying to dig into my business to cause problems for me. But caseworkers have to learn, and many of them have gone through some training within. I can talk about the fatherhood initiative that DCF initiated, whereas they have learned to communicate better with fathers, have more patience with fathers, understand that the fathers may present in an angry way because, and what? And how can I go about helping the father feel more comfortable so that he will communicate with me and realize that I'm not out to get him. And of course, everyone deserves respect. So if we can, as a caseworker, give that respect. And be very concrete and straightforward with the father. That is one avenue that may help. Another is to meet the father where he is and not be on the outside or leaving him on the outside, but having him become more comfortable with understanding why I am asking these questions. What I'm here for and my purpose is your children or your child first. Listen, we have to be willing to listen to fathers and allow them to vent, and that's not always easy to do and feel and comfortable for a caseworker, but it may help once the father has then communicated his way to now settle down and be more open to listening to you. We as caseworkers have to be willing to listen to that. Father as well. so those are some techniques. And the last one is everybody has strengths. So we have to identify the strengths and needs of the father and the protective factors of the father, and utilize those protective factors and his strengths to help him come back to the table to begin discussing a potential plan for his child or his families, or even being a permanency resource for his child doesn't sound like it's an easy job. And I know sometimes I say to people, one of the worst jobs sometimes, is it caseworker for the division of child protection and permanency?'cause everyone's angry at you. And you're still supposed to be calm, cool, forward thinking as you said, strength-based, it's hard. Yes. So you said something about some fathers initiatives. You wanna talk a little bit about what those are? DCFS Rec. DDCF, department of Children and Families. Thank you. Recognized that there was a need for the agency to work better with fathers, not only identifying them, but to get better at engaging fathers. So Department of Children's families initiated what we call the Fatherhood Initiative, and today there are several fatherhood initiatives in just about every county where they are providing support and resources to the fathers within their community to help them. Began to have more productive, healthier lives and to help them with their parenting skills and eventually help them become permanency resources for their children. So these particular initiatives started off by educating the entire department of children and family staff and getting them to understand the challenges that fathers go through and the challenges that we as an agency have exhibited in trying to get fathers back to the table. Once this training was provided, then training to the community was also offered as a part of the Fatherhood Initiative, department of Children Families took the next step and began to support financially some of the fatherhood programs that were coming up in different counties to help provide the support and resources to fathers. Very cool. So a couple things. In terms of, do fathers just join these community groups or do they get referred there? Or how does, how do they get involved? Most fathers aren't just stepping up to the plate and saying, I'm going. Oftentimes they are referred by the case worker or other community folks who are very much aware of the fatherhood programs and fatherhood initiatives. As a matter of fact, there's an excellent program right here in Essex County in Newark, called the FELLAS Program. Fathers Empowered to Learn, lead, and Achieve success. and I've been actively involved with the Fatherhood Initiative FELLAS Program, which falls under the partnership for Maternal and Child Health. What they have been successful in doing is actually reaching out to the fathers via phone email to try and tell them more about what supports and services that they have to offer and how their program can help the father become reengage, promote healthy relationships to actually provide parenting training. And once a father receives an opportunity to know that he can participate in a group setting with other fathers in his similar situation, they become more comfortable to actually become more engaged. Another great thing is the economic stability that is offered by the Fatherhood Initiative and the FELLAS Program. Fathers are challenged with trying to find employment, getting back into the employment field, finding jobs, and therefore, if they can be given the opportunity where someone and a group of folks are sitting down with them preparing resumes, giving them employment training, referring them two job programs, then that encourages the father to continue to participate in the full program where he is now not only dealing with economic stability, but learning how to become a better person, how to become a better father. How do I, why ensure that I can become a part again of my child's life? That's great. When you talk about fathers needing parenting, is. Is that because they haven't been around or is that they weren't the primary caregiver? Or do is it something that we can all benefit from parenting if we're parenting? there, it has been a, pet peeve of mine that, all fathers need parenting and that has been stated many times. So it's almost a given that whether a father was present with the child or not present with the child, he may be in need of parenting, training, parenting skills. As we all know, we've always looked at mothers as the primary care parenting person for children and fathers at one time was always going to work, didn't participate with all the activities of their child or children, and it was always the mother during the parent. Whether it's from infancy of changing diapers, defeating to as they got older, there are many fathers who were present and doing some of those same things. And the thought was that if he stepped away at all, he would be in need of parenting training. So at this point, fathers sometimes are resistant to having to participate in parenting training saying, I know how to parent and we have to find creative ways to get fathers into an effective parenting type training so that he can return back to the family. He can become a part of the child's lives, he can part become a part of the family time, if not become a permanency plan. And the parenting training and understanding can help. What is it they teach in parenting training? Parenting training is a big question mark in my opinion, not only for fathers, but for mothers. if you think about it, a new mother rarely does not receive any real parenting training unless she is with her own parents or families, and learning things along the way. The grandmother has shared some things and thought them along the way. So at this point, what is actually learned and received? I'm not gonna try to answer that with Mary Kay. I've not participated in parenting training, but I, as a father, believed from day one that I had the ability to parent, my child, just as well as my children's mother had the ability to do that, and I learned those skills. I would say. From my own upbringing and surroundings as I was growing up to become an adult and just trial and error. And trial and error. And you do better with the second kid and the third kid, absolutely. Than absolutely you did with the first kid. But do they, do you think they sometimes help people, or even through the father's initiative, how to, let's say, interact with their children in a more productive way? Maybe how not to be so combative, even with their own children? So there's some skill building Absolute. That I think happens. Or you hit it on the nose, right? Absolutely. But I struggle with what the, skills are. The skills are. But I do know that some of the father's groups that I've heard about around the state, which as you said, there's a lot more of them, some of them are trying to just enable dads to be more comfortable, being. interacting with their children because that, as you said, was not the traditional role that they had, right? Absolutely. It was ma, absolutely. But I do agree with you. I could see people resenting the fact that they've now been sent to parenting. And if they, on the other hand, there are some fathers who are receptive to a parenting class or parenting training because they may not have participated in that or seen that within their upbringings, particularly if they're the only child, and therefore can be helpful. I can share with you a situation of a father that I'm currently working with, and we are in the process of implementing an reunification plan. we're in court. All parties, judges', attorneys have agreed to reunification plan for the father. The good part about this is that the resource parent who has the child is very supportive of this father, and they're working together. So he's receiving training through the resource parent, but as the reunification plan is about to be effectuated, he said, I need a little more time with having overnight visits by myself short, not day after day, to ensure that I have the skills necessary to continue to parent my child. And so as a part of the plan, all parties have agreed that we will do just one day of an overnight visit for dad. And he's slowly but surely becoming comfortable with that. Prior to an official approval of a reunification plan. That's wonderful. But I also, because you're part of the Safe Babies Court team, I'm assuming that child is an infant or toddler. That is correct. That child is an infant. and unfortunately, the child's mother passed away. Oh. And the father had stepped up to the play, came back to the table, and wanted to make a permanency plan for his child. And he wanted to be that plan. However, this was the first child and it was a new experience for him, and he was one person who came to court. every month he came to the family team meetings. Every month he accepted the team supporting services that were provided and made it clear that I want my child reunited with me. And as it, we became closer to the reunification plan, he made it very clear that I need a little more time because I'm not. Comfortable right at this point. And everybody was very patient with the father and has allowed him to actually get to the point where with the additional parenting and the support that he's receiving, he's now ready for a full reunification plan, which will happen, end of the mother as a matter of fact. That's terrific. And it's so nice to hear everyone working together. Yes. it's very sad that the mother died, but the fact that everybody could rally behind this dad and make it work and one of the biggest piece is that there's a resource parent who's not related to the dad who made it very clear that I want to be a part of your support system as we work towards reunification plan for your child. Wow, that's terrific. Good things happen. Good things happen. So I wanna back up a little bit to when you first started talking about the father's initiative, and you said there was training for caseworkers and then there was training for the community. So I'm thinking that's the other, what we call stakeholders in Child Protective Services. Who else is part of that community? Is that the judges, attorneys? yes. That community, the Child Protective Service community is huge. It consists of. They're caseworkers, supervisors, casework supervisors, and local office managers in a local office. Every local office has those individuals. Also within the local office that works within the child protective system are domestic violence liaisons, child health nurses, and others. So every local office across the state has an array of individuals and a team that is responsible for the child protection for children. Okay. On the outside of a local office, we have of course the judges. We have the attorneys, the child's attorney, the parent attorney, the division's attorney. We have CASA Court appointed special advocates also involved. We have providers who are actively involved in helping the families resolve or improve the situation that they may have encountered to get to the point where they can reach a suitable level of stability. so it's a huge array of individuals who are actively involved with the Child Protective system. And most importantly, and we as DCF partner, children, families, stress over and over is the support system for every individual. It is so important for everyone to have a support system to help them get through, get over the hurdles. We cannot do this alone. Individuals cannot do this alone. So it's important to be able to have someone to help you as your support system. And we as caseworkers and DCP&P workers. Are actively trying to help parents identify their support system to help them manage the challenges that they're currently facing. It's my understanding that over in more recent years, the numbers of families involved with division is less than when you and I first got involved in the child welfare system, but also a significant reduction in the number of children living in foster care. Absolutely. That also to me, translates that we have been able to serve more families at home because we don't wanna cause the additional trauma of removing a child from their family. So that the families where a child is removed probably have more serious issues. And you, or complications, right? So you talked about providers. So what are some of those providers? What do some of them do? And you're absolutely correct. the division has made tremendous progress with working with in-home families and ensuring that the supports are provided, the services are provided to keep families together. Of course, there are situations where children or child has to be removed from their bio parent and placed in a temporary resource home or a temporary kinship home. The best scenario is to try and identify a relative akin if a child has to be removed from their bio parent. As children, fare better when they're with kin. At least my opinion and others may agree with that. but once the child is removed, then it is the division's obligation to connect and link them to the services to meet the needs that they have encountered. to meet the challenges that they have encountered. And there's providers such as we need to initiate a psychological evaluation to help us determine what the needs are for this particular family. It is extremely important that we get this child or children involved in trauma-informed therapy to help them deal with the removal and the trauma that they've experienced while with, as a part of the abuse and neglect, in many cases, there's substance abuse or substance use that impact. The family and the removal, and it is critical that we as the vision try to connect them and link them and get them involved into the appropriate treatment modality to handle and deal with their substance abuse use or misuse. Of course, another is the untreated mental health. There are folks and families who are challenged with having mental health issues and as a result, some abuse neglect may have, they may have encountered some abuse, neglect, getting the parent and the child or both, or individually into treatment for mental health. Concerns is extremely important. And to believe that a parent that attends or participates in mental health treatment is capable of continuing to parent, and children can be reunited with them as long as they can continue within their treatment. And if medication is recommended, then as long as they continue in their medication regimen, then the child could be safe in the care of the parents. So there's mental health, mental health treatment. There's, substance abuse treatment, psychological evaluations, psychiatric evaluations, parenting of course, parenting. Yes, parenting becomes a number one referral. But, it's important that the caseworkers work with the parents to try to get them connected to the most appropriate resource and support and treat. And not just any kind of provider, given the fact that moms and dads may have different needs. So I know for example, with the substance use, there are programs Mommy and me, where the mother and the child can live together while the mom is getting the substance abuse treatment. I don't know that there's dad and me programs in the state. and also we have such a diversity in our state in terms of language and ethnic backgrounds. Do caseworkers sometimes struggle with finding treatment providers who speak the language of. The parents, in addition to understanding the needs of dads, they absolutely do. It's something that the division has continued to address. Look into, try to find individuals who are willing to come on board and being under contractual agreements under the state. and it will continue to be a challenge, but, there is the language line of course, that okay, sometimes caseworkers have to utilize. To communicate with other families because they don't speak the English language. And that is a contractual, situation that has been arranged for all caseworkers. Whenever they encounter someone who doesn't speak the language, we can utilize it and it will help us communicate. It's always better, in my opinion, when you have someone who can speak their language, it makes it more comfortable for the parent to have someone who speaks their language as opposed to utilizing language line. But unfortunately, the state doesn't have enough. caseworkers who will actually manage the number of families, whether it's in home or outta home with the different language and bar and backgrounds. But we are utilizing what we have and try to ensure that we do what we call a buddy system a casework. If you have a caseworker in your office who speaks the language of that family, then that person usually goes out in pairs and try to communicate, of course, conduct the investigation and try to help service the family who speaks the different language. And I found that to be extremely helpful and beneficial. That's wonderful. I didn't realize they had that because I know schools struggle with language. Medical providers struggle. Hospitals struggle with language. Absolutely. We just, 'cause we have so many languages spoken here in New Jersey. What about some of the other, entities that you mentioned? So for example, are the attorneys helpful to dads? In my opinion, I think the attorneys are extremely helpful to dad. As I said earlier, there are times when children or child has to be removed from his or her bio home, and if that's the case, then it is responsibility of the division to initiate litigation. And therefore every parent, each parent must have an attorney representing them in the litigation hearings. So a father is assigned, an attorney to represent him, and this attorney is extremely helpful in advocating for. Father, there are times when fathers are very uncomfortable talking to anyone, and as we said, untrusting of anyone, but he or she may, he may become very comfortable with sharing things with his attorney and sharing his thoughts and feelings that his attorney can present in the court. His attorney can also encourage the dad to participate in the court ordered services, which is critical, and as the dad may be, resistant to listening to the caseworkers, I'm not gonna listen to the judge. However, the attorney being able to sit down with the dad and explaining to him the necessary steps that we must take in order to address. The trauma as well as address the reunification plan or the permanency plan for your child is A, B, and C. And therefore, there are times when dads are more receptive to participating in those treatment services with the provider once his attorney has sit down and reassured him that we're going to do everything we possibly can to represent you in the best interest of your child. So my sense is some of these attorneys through the Office of Parental representation, they're full-time involved in this case type. So they develop an expertise and relationship and they have a better understanding of some of the unique needs of these dads and the moms. Absolutely. They represent the moms too. And many of them know exactly 'cause they've been involved, what the division is expecting and looking for and communicate with the division's attorney to help make this a smoother process for the dads. And then you mentioned, so the judges, do you think over the years through training or just more experienced judges have more, a better appreciation for some of the struggles that these fathers have? I, truly do believe that there's been a tremendous change in the thinking that judges have about fathers. but that is no different than anyone else and what we perceived fathers to be in the past, but with the transformation of the child welfare system and the focus on the fatherhood initiatives and that fathers are important too, the judges have begun to have a different mindset and views of fathers, and that fathers can actually parent and be a permanency plan for their children. Therefore, we need to make sure that is a potential resource and plan on the table. And some, many of these fathers also have relatives, right? Absolutely. That I think in the past. The system tended to go to mom's relatives if mom wasn't able to take care of the kids, not necessarily the paternal staff. That's, absolutely correct. And sometimes in the past, some paternal relatives were not even pursued or search for in their efforts to become a part of the child's, permanency plan. But I think with the transformation, with the changes, with the Fatherhood initiative, communication about fathers as being potential caregivers and that we should be fair and equitable to fathers as well, everyone has now begun to be more, receptive to fathers and their relatives as well as potential caregivers. Can you talk a little bit more about what I understand to be the Father's Council at the Department of Children and Families? I can share a little bit. keep in mind I did retire, but, yes, the Fatherhood Initiative that was initiated by the commissioner, to educate the entire department of children, family, staff, and the community, and to embrace fathers. was successful in initiating and developing a father's council. So there are a number of fathers who came to the table to be a part of the council to take the fatherhood initiative to the next steps. These men, some have been in the system, many have been in the system and have successfully, transitioned out, successfully have reunification plans with their children and are now setting up policies to help the entire department of children and families, embrace the fatherhood initiative and the fatherhood concept, and that fathers are important too. So I would say the department has been. Very proactive. Very proactive in recent years. And I think you were part of a lot of that pro action when you were working in Trenton, right? and a bunch of different initiatives. That is true. And, that was, I am, strongly committed to try and help and work with fathers. And I was involved in the beginning of the Fatherhood Initiative and continue to speak up highly for fathers. Let's give them the opportunity and recognize that there were many things that we had failed to do as an agency and that we needed to learn and help others learn to do, to help engage fathers. So yes, I was a part of the initiation and development of the Fatherhood Initiative way back down in Trenton central office. I'm very proud to be a part of that and continue to support and. Fivers in, in every, venue that I can. That's terrific. And now with the Safe Babies Court team, you're actually getting a chance to work with individual fathers, it sounds Absolutely. as you know that I currently do some work with the Safe Babies Court team, and what happens is oftentimes we are reaching out to the parent, so the parent's attorney will give us the Okay, after the children are removed to actually speak to the parents. It's fairly easy to reach out to the mother and try to share information about the Safe Babies Court team and how the Safe Babies Court team can support, and work with them. But fathers continue to be a challenge. if we look at statistics in the beginning, we were having challenges bringing fathers to the table, so I had the opportunity to actually spend some time with the FELLAS Program, fatherhood Initiative here in Newark. We were successful in getting them to expand into the additional counties that I currently are involved in. Father, the Safe Babies Court team is involved in Essex, Passaic, and Hudson County, and they, we established a partnership whereas they were willing to accept. Fathers from Hudson Passaic and Essex via the Safe Babies Court team referrals. So what I would do is I would make the direct phone calls to the fathers, and I would explain not only the Safe Babies Program, safe Babies Court Team Program, but I would also give some information about the FELLAS Fatherhood Program and how beneficial it could be for them if they were willing to participate in this program. And what I found is that some of more fathers were more accepted to hearing and sitting down with me at the initial phase. my ability to actually listen and talk with them and explain the details of how this could be beneficial for them, not only Safe Babies Court team and how we would support them, but to be a part of. A situation where other fathers who are in the same situation are willing to talk and learn together and develop a safe space where you as a father can begin to grow, develop healthy relationships. We can talk about co-parenting if you're interested in that. And of course we can talk about economic stability and we can refer you to places where you might be able to get employment. We will give you resources to housing and these are some of the critical things that you are in need of. So come to the table with us and participate in the Fatherhood Initiative. And what I found is that with the partnership that I was able to develop with the FELLAS, they would call the father directly even before the cohort, their this cohorts that they actually participate in. And if they're unable to be there. In person. They do virtual sessions, individual as well as group sessions for the fathers. And by having that direct communication with the father increase their willingness and participation in the Fatherhood FELLAS program. And then once the litigation is over, can these dads stick with the FELLAS program if they want to? Absolutely. The FELLAS program make it very clear that we, you can continue to participate in the program even you can graduate and receive a certificate. However, if you choose to continue or return, the door is always open and they will place you into a different cohort. and you'll continue to become a part of the Fatherhood Initiative. You always have someone to reach out to communicate and obtain resources should you need them, even after litigation's over, because I'm thinking, given the fact that some of the stressors on these families, even when they're back together, having. a wraparound support system is really critical for the ultimate success. Absolutely. And that's what the Fatherhood Initiative and Fatherhood FELLAS Program will do for them. Provide that support system around them even. Even if reunification occurs or it doesn't occur, the fathers are still in need of having someone to talk to, communicate. Because what we are striving for is to ensure that a father at least comes back into a child's life if he is unable to actually provide a permanency plan or be a caregiver. So family time is very critical. So learning how to communicate with my child how to participate and increase family time is something that is continuous for the father. Within these particular programs, and this one in particular, would they help a dad that maybe was in prison for a couple years and is now coming back to a situation? That may be drastically different from when they entered prison. They absolutely will. As a matter of fact, they service, any father as long as he has a child from the age of zero to 24. Oh, so 18 and up. And it doesn't have to be a father, it could be a grandfather, it could be an uncle. But if you have a child from the age of zero to 24, you are eligible to participate and receive supportive services from the FELLAS Fatherhood Program. So how does a dad find the FELLAS program? You don't necessarily have to be, have your children taken away by the division, right? No. So how would they find the FELLAS program? Unless you wanna give your number Dave and No, referrals can be made by anyone to the FELLAS Fatherhood Program. And it's listed on the website that you go on there. You'll actually see, information about the particular FELLAS. Father's empowered to learn, lead and achieve success, and a phone number that anyone can actually call or have the father make the phone call to actually, become involved in the program. and it does, you don't have to, you involved in the child welfare system at all? It's any father. Right now, the particular FELLAS program is only able to manage the three counties, Essex, Hudson, and Passag at this time, hoping to grow further. But there are other fatherhood initiatives in other counties where there resources available for those fathers in need. A partnership for maternal and child health has a huge website. And, under that, our list of fatherhood programs, and this one in particular is the number one sponsored and supported and funded by them. So the partnership is the. Consortia, that's the northern part of the state. And my unders there is another one in the southern part of the state and one in the central part of the state. That is correct. Which at ac and j we'd always be happy to connect people with. Do you think some of these programs are interested in having other people support them? Like other dads people who are retired come teach skills, mentor fathers? I absolutely do. They're always looking for others to become a part of the implementation of the program. They're in the process of doing, community workshops out in the three communities, Essex, Hudson, and Passaic, to get the word out and get the message out about the Fatherhood Initiative, the FELLAS Fatherhood Program, to bring more folks on board to help expand and become a part of the initiative. it sounds like you have really been a critical person involved in spearheading a lot of this change that is really going to help a lot of dads and really ensure a lot of success for kids who unfortunately get involved in the child welfare system. So I really commend all of your efforts, and I've always thought you went out of your way to help people. Thank you. What would you like to see in place 10 years from now if this continues in the direction it's going? I would like to see everyone in New Jersey to look at the child welfare system and see that with the changes, the transformation of the child welfare system, that the system has become a fair and equitable system. And that efforts have been put forth to reduce racial disparity and disproportionality and to provide supports to families to keep them together. you just opened up a whole nother can of worms. When you say the system has transformed, what's transformed about the system? There's been a major transformation of the child welfare system as you, we started off, I've been involved in the system for quite some time and have been able to see some changes along the way. and I can commend the commissioner, commissioner Byer for coming in and implementing the transformation of the child welfare system, which meant focusing on things that were not working. Did I work in the past and how do we go about bringing about changes to support families within the child welfare system? We need to remove the stigma that we are here to just remove children and have children adopted with the number of initiatives that have been created and spearheaded by the commissioner to transform the system, we are beginning to see and understand that we're working with children, families, and the community as a whole, and that we all have to do this together to support families, and that our efforts will be put forth in working with families in home. Hopefully we don't have to remove children or less children will be removed and placed into foster care. And if we get to the point where child has to be removed and placed in foster care. Then we must focus on trying to ensure that child or children are placed with kin. So the focus and establishment of kinship, legal, guardianship and supporting those kin and relatives, requires some change in policy, requires some change in licensing to make it a lesser degree and more accessible, and for relatives to be willing to step up to the plate to and provide the temporary care to their kin. And the commissioner was instrumental in, making that happen. And of course, something that's dear to my heart is focusing on race and disparity within the child welfare system. Black and brown children and families have not been treated well and not fared well over the years in the past and oftentimes. Families were brought into the system due to poverty and classified and coded as neglect and had to go through full investigations when they may not have been neglectful, situa situations, but poverty existed. Therefore, one of the main focuses within the transformation is we must address poverty versus neglect. And there's a lot of work that has been going on within the system to address poverty and neglect, to address racial disparity within the system and to try and bring about a fair and equitable system overall. Do you think, based on what you said, that there was a perception. That if the division got called on or a family got called on and the division came to investigate, people were afraid their kids were just gonna get taken and given to another family. Absolutely. That was the thought process of many folks in the community whenever they talked about, child protection and permanency. And before that it was called fuss and folks really was fearful of s and continued to be fearful of Department of Children families because they felt that if they come out to my home, they're going to remove my children. And it will be such a challenge for me to get my children back. And therefore, it was important to get families to begin to have more faith and trust and the system willing to come and provide some support to your family in an effort to keep your family together in every way possible. Do you think foster parents, who we call resource parents in New Jersey, that they have a role to play in changing that attitude as well when kids are placed into foster care? Because I think there was a time when many of them became foster parents thinking they were gonna be able to adopt a child, able to adopt child. Absolutely. and you're absolutely correct. There are many foster parents who were looking forward to a child being placed with them, and this child will be with them forever and they would adopt. So it was extremely important to try and get the message and get the education out to everyone that foster care is a temporary arrangement, so that the plan should be to try and work towards this child who had to be removed due to the circumstances be returned. In a safe situation. And that is the obligation responsibility of the division and all the supports, the providers to help make that happen. And that foster parents, we need you to come on board and are, very appreciative and thankful that you are willing to provide the service.'cause it's not easy to be a foster parent, I must say, but to be able to work collaboratively with the bio parent is something that was new and different and became a part of the transformation. So we needed to find ways and creative ways that build up and create the communication between a foster parent and a bio parent, which would help make the reunification more timely. Which would help kids feel more comfortable because they know that their parents are still around and working towards a possible reunification plan. And the bio parents could provide things that the resource parent never knew or had no idea about the child, which would help that child become more comfortable and, handle the trauma that he or she has experienced being away from their parents. So there's one particular, initiative that is, and I'm hoping that it will go statewide and I believe called Comfort Calls. And it's something where the division is trying to bridge the gap between resource parents and bio parents. And I'm pleased to say that initiative. Was started here in Essex County. in one of the counties that I worked with for many years and was a pleased to be a part of and develop. And we are now trying to ensure that soon as a child goes into out-of-home placement, we're communicating with the resource parent about the importance of having communication with the bio parent. But keep in mind we needed to find ways to help the resource parent become comfortable with that call. as a part of training new resource parents and provided within the training process of, seasoned resource parents, we implemented a special bridge the gap for resource parents and bio parents to actually communicate and have regular calls, weekly calls about the child. That was not an easy process in beginning because, of course not only are the resource parents somewhat fearful, but there are some caseworkers who were somewhat fearful that this could not work. That if the bio parent found out where the resource parent lived, that could cause a problem. So a number of things continue to surface that create created barriers, but we began to work through those finding ways to make phone calls without the number of the resource parent being provided to the, bio parents. So that. Cover that piece of it, and to say, let's do this together, if you like the phone call, till you get to the point where you are comfortable having that phone call with the bio parent and the mother. So there were some specialists assigned to the resource units to help navigate that communication. And I'm pleased to say that it's working effectively. It has now been presented to central office and other counties and we're hoping that it will roll out and become, a part of the entire child welfare system and the process within a removal of a child. I think you're being a little modest'cause I think you gave the green light. I, when you are an area director saying this will happen in Essex County and I remember hearing training and I can't remember what state. There was another state that did comfort calls and they came to New Jersey. We had a virtual call. That's, and they explained it and they were just surprised that we didn't routinely introduce the foster parent with the parent. I think historically in New Jersey, foster parents here, the worst about the parents and think, if your child had to come into foster care, you must have done something horrible. And so they view their role as protecting the child. And then you have the parent thinking that the foster parent is trying to steal their child. So right from the get go, there's no trust. Absolutely. And I do remember them saying is the sooner you could have some type of conversation, even if it's about what does my child like to eat? Do they have a favorite stuffed animal? You can start to humanize people. But it, it was such a struggle Yes. To get people from their comfort zones to say, I'm even willing to engage in this. And I think, it's wonderful that it's still going on. I think it's terrific. Kudos to you for letting your staff say, go forward with my blessing and we'll figure it out. Because I think even some of the attorneys objected 'cause they were afraid someone might say something that, that is true. Could be used against them. Yes. So I think, the system has a lot of barriers built in to it for reasons of what the law requires or because you're in litigation and yet it does a disservice to parents and foster parents who actually probably would get along. Absolutely. If they knew each other. If they knew each other, yes. Yeah. So that is, and it takes a lot of com ongoing communication with the staff. With the resource parent and the myo parents. So it's not like you just throw it out there and let's make the phone call. We have to prepare people and help them become comfortable with, that phone call. And once they make that first or second phone call, then they begin to feel more comfortable and talk about the child and children and the care, what they like and what they don't like, and help ensure that this becomes one placement only for that child as we work towards reunification plan. Nice. And then we were successful in taking it to the next steps where the attorneys were em embracing the concept and took it on to say, let's make this a reality for just about any child that goes into out-of-home placement. So I'd like to thank the attorneys here in Essex County who embraced the concept and we've continued to move forward with it. it's just, it's interesting to me because I think it, it's so much better for the children involved who obviously are scared. Yeah. And need to feel comfortable, safe where they are, and that they will get to talk to their parents again. I'm sure there are plenty of cases in which it would not be appropriate given whatever happened to the child. And I also can totally appreciate the fact that a caseworker may be hesitant because maybe there was another circumstance where they took a risk and they got burned. Absolutely. Where it all fell apart and so they're hesitant to try it again. But to your earlier point, the system is changing in terms of attitude that we should be supportive of parents supportive. Absolutely. Yep. That's what makes it so challenging is that we have to be able to make an assessment from the early stage of removal that this is something that might work with this resource parent and this bio parent. So the communication and collaboration between all parties, the case worker who's involved, the investigator who's involved, the resource worker, who's involved, to come to the table to say, is this a situation that we might be able to work collaboratively together to bring and have a phone call between resource parent and mom. And once you have all folks collaborating together, then you have a better chance of making it a reality. That's great. So any last thoughts? Are there other ways that our listening audience might learn more about Safe Babies Court team or might learn more about the transformation of the Department of Children and Families? I will just share just a little bit about. My current involvement with the Safe Babies Court team, and I have a passion to work with children and families, and even after retire through retirement, I wanted to stay involved to see how I can continue to work to keep families together, or at least find timely permanency for children. And to have babies and toddlers from zero to three be removed from their bio parents. It is critical to find ways and be creative and get all parties collaborating together so that this child can be returned timely. A baby is transforming from the time he or she comes out of the womb, and we must recognize that there's a lot going on and to be separated from their. Bio parent can be traumatic even to a baby. So we have to ensure that we can get this child involved into the appropriate services. children need to undergo neuropsych evals to help them deal with the trauma. They don't adjust well to being removed from the home of bio family because all they touch and feel when they came out was their mother. So this has changed. So everything that's needed for their child is something that the Safe Babies Core team works with. The vision in trying to identify link and connect those families to the service, and even more importantly, is that the parent who now have had their baby removed from them, need to be involved in their treatment immediately. So our efforts and, Trial and tribulation is really to support the division. Division does a lot of work. They have a lot of things to do in trying to support families. So if you can have someone on the outside who is supportive of the division caseworker and help connect and provide and identify the services, then we are one step closer to keeping and bringing a family back together. And how do we go about doing that is with constant communication and collaboration. And what is most special is that a family that's involved in the Safe Babies Court team get to come to a family team meeting once a month. And we have community coordinators with the San safe Babies Court team, and we bring the parents, the attorneys, the resource families and all the providers and supports to the table to talk about plan and create goals. That the family wants to achieve in order to expedite a reunification plan or expedite a permanency plan. And then not only that, but all this information and all these individuals then have a monthly court hearings division, usually have every two or three month court hearings. But to be able to have all parties collaborating together to come to a court hearing and talk about the goals that have been achieved, and maybe adjust the goals if necessary each month creates an opportunity where there is a stronger op, stronger, plan that can be created, developed, and effectuated more timely. And that's what I'm very proud of, being a part of the Safe Babies Court team and working with the community coordinators, and especially the fathers and trying to bring them back to the table to be, become a part of the permanency plan for children. Your passion for this program shines through, as did your passion for helping families when you were at the division. I guess I could see some of the other stakeholders saying, the division does this anyway, or this is just more meetings. We have to have more court hearings. To your point that typically you have court hearings every three months or so and you're actually bringing everyone together for a month. But it sounds like you see a stronger bonds and the collaboration is stronger when people get together more often, right at the beginning. Absolutely. And what we can do and see is that every month we're talking about the child. Child is the focus of attention. The child's medical follow up, the child dental follow up. If not, can we get the appointment scheduled? Let's do this together. So the child was never forgotten about. And everything that child is in need of, we're working collaboratively together to make it happen. And then for the parents, it's very clear, spelled out what their needs are. They're involved in treatment. We have them with their permission, their provider come to the family team meeting to talk about the progress within their treatment programs. And if it's in a Mommy & Me program, we get immediate feedback about the progress and interaction between the mom and the child in a Mommy & Me program. So everybody who's involved with the family gets to receive immediate feedback and can come to the table and make an adjustments with the family's permission. I think that's the best opportunity that you can have to try and help us. I agree. My sense is, 'cause we met, I met DaVita Ford, your colleague, who is that community resource person, or she was, now she's statewide. And my sense from talking to her is that a lot of times the people in that position both have had what we call lived experience, meaning they have a better appreciation than let's say I would of what the parent's going through. But also they may have a better sense of the community resources. That's correct. Or the smaller mentors or just small, smaller mom and pop. Places in the community or other people, the neighborhood, grandma, whatever, who might then become a resource to the parent long term. Absolutely. And DaVita Ford, as you mentioned, is the New Jersey State Coordinator for the Safe Babies Court team. Phenomenal leader, but we also have a community coordinator that's assigned to each county and a part of that, their responsibility is to not only facilitate the family team meetings, of which they do a fantastic job and appear at court hearings, but to also go out into the community to seek and identify other resources that the division may not have or be aware of. And there may not be contract contractual agreements with those providers, but we try to find ways to bring those providers to the table via other insurance, Medicaid in particular as the first option. And eventually, hopefully the division may be able to. establish a contractual agreement if it's beneficial statewide for the family. So their job is to go out into the community and ensure that the community services supports are available right there where the family reside. That's great. And it's to supplement and collaborate with the division. It's not to take over. Absolute. And that's one point that I'm glad you said, shared that and stress. The Safe Babies Corps team is here to support and work with you to work with the family. I hope that fathers are feeling more respected and able to get more involved in cases where they've had their children somehow get involved with the division of child protection and permanency. And I thank you for all you're doing and I hope that your dream of 10 years happens in five. Thank you. I, hope so as well. Thank you. So it's my pleasure. Thank you, Mary. Thank you so much for watching. Visit the description. 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