Cinema Social Club
A weekly discussion on all things moving pictures. Join us in Season One as we review every Academy Awards Best Picture winner.
Cinema Social Club
S01E06: Cavalcade
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Join us this week as we discuss the merits of the 1933 (melo)drama Cavalcade, winner of the 6th Best Picture Academy Award. We also talk about some bad casting choices and some wonderful actresses.
Hello, and welcome to another episode of Cinema Social Club. I'm Cameron, and joining me on this episode and skewing the demographics wildly upward are Glenn and Elisa. Sarah is away on an excused absence. And on this episode, we visit the sixth Academy Awards best picture winner, Cavalcade. And we have a question posed by Glenn, which we will come to in a little bit. But first, some entertainment news. And what's that in the sky? Is it a bird? Is it a plane? No, it's Supergirl. And also it's not in the sky anymore. It's crashed and burned. And DC Studios is expecting a $100 million loss on one of their first pictures in the newly rebooted DC universe. Meanwhile, in an interview promoting Minions and Monsters, Jesse Eisenberg spoke about turning down the sequel to this social network, saying not doing it and being able to perform Aaron Sorkin's words feels, quote, almost like you're letting America down, end quote. I don't wish to speak for America, but on behalf of this podcast, Jesse, don't worry about it. Totally forgiven. And finally, on behalf of Cinema Social Club, I'd like to wish a very happy birthday to Mr. Mel Brooks, who turned 100 years old. Yay. He really seems to be aiming to make that 2,000-year-old man a reality. And now, a quick look at this past weekend's box office top five. At number five, and just about to drop out, it's Steven Spielberg's latest alien flick, Disclosure Day, starring the hardest working man in show business, Josh O'Connor. On a side note, I've made a recent discovery that one of the most Googled things in regards to Josh O'Connor is why is Josh O'Connor's ears like that? No amount of success can heal those kind of scars. At number four, it's a new entry, which I think because I'm just reading the name of the title, I'm skirting the podcast language guidelines. It's Jackass, Best and Last. As this has been, by a wide margin, the lowest box office opening of any of the films in the franchise. It may not be the best, but it probably bank on it being the last. And at number three, and now sneaking into the top five grossing films of the year, it's the horror film obsession. At number two, despite predictions of a future overall box office loss, it's Supergirl. A $37 million domestic box office take is not exactly chipping away at the approximate $180 million budget. And finally, at number one for a second week and already in the top five box office earners for the year, it's Toy Story 5. And with your entertainment news wrap-up out of the way, and before we move on to our review for this week, I will turn it over to Glenn, and he's going to introduce our podcast discussion topic for this week. Glenn.
SPEAKER_04Thank you, Cam. I have been thinking this past week about I saw a movie that what had an actor in it who was, I thought, badly miscast, and I thought it would be a nice topic to discuss if we can think back on all the films we've seen over the years and films we know about where you had any actor in it who really should not have been cast in that role, and possibly who would have been better cast in that role. The movie I had seen was because it's on TV constantly, um, Jack Reacher, with Tom Cruise as the title character of Jack Reacher, who, if you are aware of the character at all from the novels, he is described as a giant, uh, a behemoth of a human, like six six foot seven inches tall, two hundred and eighty pounds of pure muscle. And little Tommy Cruz, not exactly a giant of a man, but cast as Jack Reacher.
SPEAKER_02I mean, this seems very cruel that this podcast uh contains one of Tom Cruise's biggest fans on the face of the planet, and she's not here to defend him.
SPEAKER_04I want to I want to hear her defend him as Jack Reacher. That's what I want to hear, because that's just not a good casting job. That's that's Tom Cruise, you know, who I think maybe possibly had a producing credit in that as well, basically doing a vanity project. Now, did he uh do a bad job as a tough uh character? No, he didn't. But he should not have been Jack Reacher. Specifically, Reacher is supposed to be a monster of a human being. And they did a much better job with the limited series that's been on, starring Alan Richson, who is actually like 6'3 or 6'4 and quite muscle-bound. So he looks more like the character did. So I was wondering what you what you thought. I know there's one that always pops up that everybody can think of, but some of your thoughts on you know who is badly miscast. I've got a few more in mind, too.
SPEAKER_00I think this is a hot topic. And when I watch films, I constantly say they were miscast, and it should have been so and so. It's hard for me to pull one right out of a hat right now, but the first thing I think of is Liam Neeson as the Leslie Nielsen character.
SPEAKER_02I mean, that just shouldn't have been made full stop, but yeah. Yeah, well, yeah, he was miscasting.
SPEAKER_00But he was and I like him in a lot of things that he does, but but that was horrible.
SPEAKER_02I mean, I've liked him in funny roles, but that's not one of them.
SPEAKER_04I think I waited at least an hour into that movie for a laugh.
SPEAKER_00Right.
SPEAKER_04And I couldn't find any.
SPEAKER_00No, it wasn't funny. Yeah, and I hate to see him, you know. He's very funny in the Lego movie.
unknownYeah.
SPEAKER_02Is he just a voice? But he's a voice. Good cop, bad cop.
SPEAKER_00Yeah. Okay. All right.
SPEAKER_02Um and he's he's good in love, he's one of the better sort of vignettes in love, actually, although not one of the funnier ones. Correct. But a nice one. Correct.
SPEAKER_00And I like him in love, actually. I like him in all the taken's, even though I don't think I mean they're not great films, but they're any.
SPEAKER_02Uh the uh The Conqueror. I would argue that John Wayne is kindly kind of miscast in anything where he's not a cowboy.
SPEAKER_04A cowboy or a military manager.
SPEAKER_02Well, even in some of the military worlds.
SPEAKER_04Well, that's true. Yeah. I think the in the longest day he was never miscast. Yeah. But yeah, John Wayne. Um, I'm gonna go to also Mickey Rooney as Mr. Uh Yunioshi.
SPEAKER_02Oh, yeah.
SPEAKER_04Well, actually, that shouldn't have been a role, period. Correct, yes. I mean, that was just no matter who was in that role, it was just a racist stereotype.
SPEAKER_00In what movie?
SPEAKER_04In the Uponies. Mickey Mickey Rooney was cast as the upstairs neighbor, the Asian neighbor.
SPEAKER_00As an Asian neighbor.
SPEAKER_04He plays a Japanese neighbor, and it's just and it is as racist as you could possibly have. Big round coke bottle glasses, buck teeth, everything. It was it was pitiful. And it sh even at the time, that was racist. Like it was it's racist in any time, but I just can't see how that one flew. Yeah, they just should have not broadcast that role. Period. Um and and speaking of that, Audrey Hepburn in Breakfast at Tiffany's. Wrong for the role. Um you've said that before. Well, it's it's Truman Capote, right? Correct, yeah. Who wrote the novel and she's she's a prostitute. She's a sort of a lower class kind of well, I guess uh escort, I should say.
SPEAKER_03Yeah.
SPEAKER_04And they cast like the most, you know, striking young you know, woman in the world.
SPEAKER_02It's like my fair lady meets pretty woman. Yeah, basically, I just don't think she should have been cast.
SPEAKER_04And I think they they could have found an actress that was, you know, still had some dignity to her to her bearing and demeanor, but not, I mean, it's Audrey Hepburn. You know, you think of her wearing just diamonds and white gloves and a cigarette and a, you know, well, what she did in that with the cigarette holder and all that. But she's yeah, I think she's miscast.
SPEAKER_02I mean, I think hot take. I think if Audrey Hepburn was a better actress, she could have pulled it off. I don't know that she's the best actress in the world. That's a good point.
SPEAKER_00Yeah.
SPEAKER_02Um, she did some interesting things sort of later-ish in life.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, but I has she ever won an Academy Award for anything?
SPEAKER_04She won. She must have won. Did she win for um oh gosh, she blind. Um the night the night. Wait until dark. Wait until dark. Was that what it was?
SPEAKER_00I think it was called. Was it called Wave?
SPEAKER_04Or something about it?
SPEAKER_00I love it.
SPEAKER_02So I'm that's a very good film.
SPEAKER_00Surprise I can't remember the name clearly. I'm pretty sure it is.
SPEAKER_02Um, that's a great she won one uh best actress. Oh, for Roman Holiday. Roman Holiday.
SPEAKER_03Oh, okay.
SPEAKER_02Which is a film, again, not my favorite film, but I don't really like the pairing of Gregory Peck and Audrey Hepburn don't work for me either. But uh my first thought randomly as this topic is actually uh Kevin Costner in Robin Hood.
SPEAKER_03Oh my god.
SPEAKER_02I mean, really Kevin Costner in most things, but Kevin Costner and Robin Hood would be on my list.
SPEAKER_00That's horrible.
SPEAKER_04I just don't know why you would ever cast anything but a British actor in that role, period. Because Americans are no good at doing the accent.
SPEAKER_02They cast Russell Crowe, he's not British either.
SPEAKER_04Okay, well, you know, but uh we're Americans, we can't tell the difference between Australian and New Zealand and a British accent half the time.
SPEAKER_02Or South African at that rate. But yeah.
SPEAKER_04So, but yeah, to cast an American, also who is a kind of a wooden actor to begin with.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, you know, yeah, really.
SPEAKER_04And whose accent comes and goes mostly goes.
SPEAKER_02You know, I mean Kevin Costner is another one of those that at his peak, I thought he was the worst actor. Like when he was the most successful, I thought is when he did his worst acting. He's gotten better, much better.
SPEAKER_04Interestingly, I liked him in um Man of Steel. He didn't have a man of steel. Really good in Man of Steel.
SPEAKER_03Yeah.
SPEAKER_04Um I think this is this is a hot take, too, but you have to know a little bit about the novels. Um, Tom Hanks as Robert Langdon in any of those movies, Angels and Demons. Yeah, but they're not great books, yeah. But he just he doesn't fit the what the character was described as very well in there. And I don't know, it I don't really buy him. I think somebody like Sam Neil or somebody else would have been more familiar.
SPEAKER_02Although I feel Tom Hanks was sort of playing a Sam Neil in that film.
SPEAKER_04Yeah.
SPEAKER_02They had the weird wig on him. Well, it probably was his hair, but it looked like a wig.
SPEAKER_04It looked like a wig.
SPEAKER_00It did. It did. It did.
SPEAKER_04Um, yeah, I don't know. There's there's been so much over the years where you think, why did they put this person in this role? Or and again, a lot of times it'll be they'll put somebody who is supposed to be uh from a certain country, or even if it's British, they'll put an American actor in there. Or they'll put how many British actors have now played Superman? Yes, who's an American actor? Basically all, yeah, except for the Lakers. It's like, you know, wow, but now haven't they done a good job? I think so, but it's weird that I think it's funnier that the British can play Americans so much easier than we can.
SPEAKER_02Strictly speaking, Superman is not American.
SPEAKER_04He's he's well, he's an alien. Correct. I mean, so really he could be whatever. But he's for truth, justice in the American realm. Grew up in Kansas, you know, Smallville.
SPEAKER_00Yeah.
SPEAKER_04Um, so it's funny when they cast people from other countries or you know, whatever.
SPEAKER_02Uh I mean, uh, there's uh I know you have issues with the casting in like I mean, there's some well beloved film apocalypse. Now I know you have problems with some of the casting. I have problems with I mean, I like Martin Sheen. Yeah, I don't know that he's the right person for that role.
SPEAKER_04Yeah.
SPEAKER_02Um, and actually Marlon Brando in that, I think, is a a bad casting choice. A waste. Well, a waste and also bad casting choice. Agreed.
SPEAKER_00But is Marlon Brando in later years even that good anymore? Because didn't we talk about him?
SPEAKER_02Well, yeah. Uh he can be.
SPEAKER_00Yeah. We talked about him being miscast in um Are you thinking The Freshman?
SPEAKER_04No. Because I thought he was perfect in the freshman, obviously.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, but the freshman, he's just playing one of his other characters. Yeah. So he's doing it. You couldn't really make that movie without casting him.
SPEAKER_04Yeah, but he did it with such great comedy chops, I think. He he walked a fine line on that one.
SPEAKER_00He was he was in a Roman bath in his house somewhere. Was he in the departed? No.
SPEAKER_02Could have been.
SPEAKER_00No.
SPEAKER_02No, you are thinking of the departed, but you're not thinking of Marlon Brando, you're thinking of Jack Nicholson.
SPEAKER_00No, but but he had a cameo role as a bad guy. Um, in and I'm not saying it was the departed. I can't remember.
SPEAKER_02Well, he was dead by the time he made the departed.
SPEAKER_00But but things I've seen him in as an older actor, I think he's often doesn't do a very good job.
SPEAKER_02I mean, he was well, he wasn't older than The Godfather. He was made made to look older. Well, he wasn't young, young, but he was 48 years old.
SPEAKER_00I mean, I like him better when he was younger, but I think he's miscast in in roles later in life, just because he's who he is.
SPEAKER_02Well, I mean, I think I think there's a lot of act. Robert De Niro suffers from that from time to time as well. Yeah. I think Robert De Niro suffers from the fact that he's thinks he's a comedian. They keep putting him in comedies. He's decided he's only doing comedies now, and he's not very good at them.
SPEAKER_04No. Um, I find Dustin Hoffman to be uh miscast a lot of times in films, too, where he's well Dustin Hoffman's a tricky one because he's a very unique looking and sounding and acting person.
SPEAKER_00So you do think he was cast well in Tootsie, right?
SPEAKER_04In Tootsie, yeah, because he was he was playing himself just about.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, I thought he was playing a neurotic actor.
SPEAKER_04The other actor that could have done that, well, except for uh the way he looks, is Richard Dreyfus. They're both insufferably you know self-important actors. Yes, yes, interchangeable really.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, yeah. Although I much rather see Dustin Hoffman than in in that movie. I'm glad he he did get it.
SPEAKER_04Yeah. And and there's always the ones where they'll they'll put somebody who with no acting ability in a major role. And I I look at Wonder Woman when it came out with Galgadote. Yes, who looked, you know, looked fine. Yeah, and the movie did really well and was a I thought it was a good movie, but my gosh, there's nothing there. No, and the more you see her in films, the more you realize she's not an actress.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, agreed completely, completely.
SPEAKER_04So I don't know. Lots of good. Although she must have acted before then. She did.
SPEAKER_00She was mostly a model, but I don't think she's that great.
SPEAKER_02Um, yeah. I mean, it's I there's a lot of like personal takes on my part that I don't like them in the roles, but but they people like them in the role, like I sure I don't think Joaquim Phoenix is that great as Johnny Cash, but everybody else does, so I'm clearly in the minority there.
SPEAKER_04I agree with you. I didn't I thought he was miscast there.
SPEAKER_02Yeah.
SPEAKER_04Yeah.
SPEAKER_00Well, I even think Reese Witherspoon was miscast in that. Yes, I definitely agree. They both for Mark in that one.
SPEAKER_04Yeah.
SPEAKER_00I could have thought of a lot better. And that happens a lot of times.
SPEAKER_04They'll just go with who's the, you know, who's the hot topic or who's the hot person right now. We get it, we have to find a vehicle for him.
SPEAKER_02Talk about miscast Napoleon. Yeah, well, yeah.
SPEAKER_00Yes, okay, yeah.
SPEAKER_02Maybe the worst casting choice I've ever heard of.
SPEAKER_00Correct.
SPEAKER_02Yeah. Not only is he poor in it, he's also about 30 years too old.
SPEAKER_00You are correct.
SPEAKER_04Yeah, so it happens quite a bit. I don't know. And there's no there's no end to it. It's always happened.
SPEAKER_00Yeah.
SPEAKER_04Um, I mean, Gary Cooper got cast in roles he shouldn't have been cast in, and that was a long time ago.
SPEAKER_02I have my problems with Gary Cooper.
SPEAKER_04Don't we all?
SPEAKER_02I mean, he does stoic very well, but that's about his only note. Uh I think there was a point where he could have potentially been a comedic actor.
SPEAKER_04Yeah.
SPEAKER_02But for some reason, they said, no, you're this role. And he he that's just what he played for the rest of his. And I there's a hint there that he could have potentially been. It's a bit like Clark Cable. Clark Cable could have been a comedic actor and was in some things, as we'll find out in a future episode.
SPEAKER_00Yeah.
SPEAKER_01Uh yeah, so there's, I mean, there's a there's I mean, tons of endless.
SPEAKER_00I like to hear what's feel like I'm a I'm a casting director on the couch saying, nope, nope, you gotta go.
SPEAKER_02Well, you must be a joy to watch movies like this.
SPEAKER_00But usually I will, if I'm gonna oust you from your role, I will replace you because I always can think of someone right away that I think would be better at it.
SPEAKER_04And I think we all kind of do it, especially if it's an actor we don't particularly like to begin with, um, and they just seem wrong for the role. Yeah, I it happens quite a bit. And funny enough, I mentioned Sam Neil as as Robert Langdon. I actually did, I mean, I like Sam Neil as a as a probably as a good human being and as an actor. And as a winemaker, and as a winemaker, I did not think he was the right person to be in Jurassic Park playing that role. I th he was absolutely the wrong person to be in that role, in my opinion.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, but see, you're probably basing that on the book. I am. Whereas 99% of the people who saw the Jurassic Park film probably never read the book.
SPEAKER_04Never read the book and just saw that.
SPEAKER_02And he's very good if you take away the book.
SPEAKER_04Yeah.
SPEAKER_02Because he's not like the character in the book, right? But he's very much like the character from the film.
SPEAKER_04Right. And of course, they made another character in the movie.
SPEAKER_02Well, also Richard Attenborough's character is nothing like he is in the book.
SPEAKER_04Horrible, horrible. He's like the hell with my grandkids.
SPEAKER_02But actually, I find that difficult in the film. Yeah. Because his character's never well developed enough. I know. So you're never quite sure whether he's supposed to be like super greedy, but he's also like very avuncular. So is he a good guy?
SPEAKER_04But and because he used to basically run flea circuses, you know. And then you've won the book, yeah. And then you sort of in the movie, he talks about flea circus. He tells the story about the circuses, but then you sort of feel bad for him in the end, yeah, which you don't in the book. No, no, you can't wait for him to die in the book. Yeah. He's horrible in the novel. Yeah.
SPEAKER_00Well, and Cam, we know that you thought that the wife of Chief Brody and Jaws was miscast.
SPEAKER_02So I don't, I never said that. I don't know.
SPEAKER_00She looks a thousand years older than him.
SPEAKER_02No, no, that's the that's the woman whose son was killed in. Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah. That's right. She is miscast. She is miscast. She is true.
SPEAKER_00Sure, sure. Yeah. Yes. Yeah.
SPEAKER_02No, I have no problem with the wife. She seems fine.
SPEAKER_00My mistake.
SPEAKER_02She's barely in it, but she seems fine. Although they did leave a part out of the Jaws movie as well, because in the book, the Richard Dreyfus character and his wife have an affair.
SPEAKER_04Yeah, the Chief's Chief's wife and Bruce.
SPEAKER_00Seriously.
SPEAKER_02Yep.
SPEAKER_00Wow. Yeah. Okay.
SPEAKER_02And I guess when they cast Richard Dreyfus, they're like, well, that's not believable. Yeah. Probably got that out of it.
SPEAKER_04Yeah, that was that was a good trim. That was that was worth trimming that.
SPEAKER_02Well, there's a lot of stuff in the Jaws book that's I mean, the Jaws book is sort of a dime store pulp novel. Yeah. It's a bit like psycho, really. Movie better than book. A movie better than book. And The Godfather, actually, I would argue. I agree. Um, that's a topic for another day.
SPEAKER_04Yes.
SPEAKER_03Yes.
SPEAKER_04Um miscastings in there?
SPEAKER_02In The Godfather?
SPEAKER_04Only in Godfather Part Three, I guess.
SPEAKER_02Ton of miscastings in Godfather Part Three. And actually, you sort of accept a lot of them because she's so badly cast. Yeah. That the other one's sort of skirt on. I would argue Andy Garcia's probably badly cast in that film, but compared to her, he's okay. Seems fine. Yeah. And actually, I think, I mean, there's a lot of people. And and the people who were fine in the first two really don't bring like Diane Keaton's not great in Godfather Three. I would argue Al Pacino's not. I mean, he's doing the best in three, but he's not that great in three. Yeah. And yet there's parts of three I really like. I do too. But it does not for a filmmaker. No?
SPEAKER_00No, it's worth it.
SPEAKER_02Well, number three is one of those things where compared to the first two, it's terrible. Compared to the films made in 1990, it's one of the better ones. Like it's a really good film. It the problem is that it's two older brothers are two of the best American films made.
SPEAKER_00But I know you both have talked very highly about three, as opposed to.
SPEAKER_04I I think it's a good movie.
SPEAKER_02I think it's good. I don't think it's great. I think it's good.
SPEAKER_04Yeah. And when he did and God he went back and fixed the ending, though. He did he did make changes. Coppola went back, fixed a terrible ending to that movie. And his daughter, Sophia, is just not a good actress in it. I may have only seen it with the I have the uh I have the the fixed ending version of it with uh I don't want to give it away.
SPEAKER_02Oh, are you talking about the very, very last show? Very, very ending. Okay, yeah, yeah.
SPEAKER_00Okay.
SPEAKER_02Spoiler. No spoiler alerts here. And with that discussion out of the way, we move on to our review of the evening. And our film this week is the 1933 film Cavalcade, the sixth best picture winner, directed by Scottish director Frank Lloyd, who, for deep-cut film trivia nerds, became Scotland's first-time Oscar winner for this very picture. He won Best Director. The film is based loosely on a play written by incredibly English Noel Coward. The film takes place in London and features an almost entirely British cast, but as the film was made in Hollywood by Fox Studios, it escapes being the first British film to win Best Picture. The film is a slice-of-life drama which follows the ins and outs of a family from New Year's Eve 1899 to New Year's Day 1933. It would also, unfortunately, be noted as one of the favorite films of a certain Austrian corporal who ended up in a position of power in Germany around the same time period. But we can't let that affect our opinion of the film, which I will now call upon my co-hosts to share. This this I go into this one probably least knowing what people's views on it are going to be. Is all right of the six films we've done so far. Because I suspect I'm going to be on a slightly different wavelength, as at least at least one of the units.
SPEAKER_00I think you might be. Well, but now I'm not sure. I I I will start by just flat out saying I enjoyed it. Um again, I think it was, I know it was supposed to be over a period of time. I think there were some very slow points that could have been sped up a little bit. And I know we've discussed the older films and how you know people went to the theater and were glued and wanted to be there for however long to really be immersed in it. Um I I would have liked to have seen more of the families clash with the um You want the upstairs downstairs at all. Kind of, yeah. I think that would have been a better plot than to to cover all the ground that they covered. But that's just kind of in a nutshell. I did enjoy what I watched.
SPEAKER_04I might have enjoyed it a little bit less. Um in fact, for the first the first almost half of the movie, I was I was bored. Um I kept getting care. Well, we all got characters confused. That happens sometimes. But I I was terrible trying to keep track of who Joey, Bobby, Robert, you know, were like who they were talking about. And the one woman who always showed up with um the the the rich lady, I guess, which it was her just her neighbor, her friend. Like I couldn't figure out who she was, and did she have any kids, and we or was she just the lady next door kind of thing? So I was having trouble keeping track of people, didn't really understand what they were trying to go for until almost the end of the movie. It it really took me till nearly the last two scenes of the movie to grasp what they were going for with this.
SPEAKER_02Well, and see, I had the benefit of going into it and knowing it was Noel Coward. Yeah, and Knoll Coward is basically it's all about class system. And this film is basically a critique of the class system, yeah. And also England's involvement in the sociopolitical war things of the early.
SPEAKER_00See, I felt I I felt like it it focused way too much on the wars than the socioeconomic classes. And I and I thought that's a good idea. I was more interested in in a character study. Well, you would be interested in all of Noel Coward's all of the rest of his stuff that he's I don't mind the war as a backdrop to the whole thing, but I I feel like they didn't, if that was their intention, I think they missed it. Well um deep to to be more deep about it. Yeah. I was looking for more deep study.
SPEAKER_04I was I didn't think there was very much of the class clashing that happened. It was there. Now, I also you probably would have had, I mean, again, audiences in 1933 going to be much more familiar with what's going on. Well, I was still young then. I was I hadn't figured it out.
SPEAKER_00Um but it's especially Bob's age.
SPEAKER_04Especially British.
SPEAKER_02I'm heavily outnumbered by the AARP crowd on this episode.
SPEAKER_04It's right, Sunny. Watch it. Um, so I think people would have understood better what they were what they were watching. I was, I think what I ended up liking about it was that they did put the class issues in the context of going from period to period to period, including through wars, and seeing how upstairs, downstairs dealt with life, war, ups, downs, good, bad, good luck, bad luck, all that, and doing it and and uh highlighting it every other year. Yeah. So I kind of like the way that was done. That was a really smart thing to do. Yeah.
SPEAKER_02Seems very play like there's also something to be said about the fact that it did sort of highlight, and I'm assuming this probably was true in real life, that the class system part of it is really emphasized in the interwar periods and drops away during the war periods, which it probably would have more or less. I mean, there's always going to be a class issue in, but the fact that it they they go everyone goes through these wars together, but then it automatically goes back to this is our rigid class system that we have to snap back into as soon as conflict is resolved.
SPEAKER_04Yeah, the uh the thing that kind of made it strike home to me was one of the scenes at the very end with Fanny and I can't remember her name. No, the mom.
SPEAKER_02Oh, Fanny's mother's name.
SPEAKER_04Um not Fanny's mother. Uh oh wait, not Fanny. Uh not Fanny. Oh gosh. The woman whose husband got run over by the uh Oh, Fanny's mother. Fanny's mom. Yeah. So when Fanny's mom was talking with Joey's mother mother at the end.
SPEAKER_02So Fanny's mother used to work for Joey's mother. And then the class, they sort of slightly jumped up in class. Even though we never really move up in class.
SPEAKER_04Oh no, you're never gonna if there's peerage involved, you're never gonna get to that same level.
SPEAKER_02She made they made some money.
SPEAKER_04Yeah. So it didn't it didn't really sink in for me until until then, until she sort of rejected her.
SPEAKER_02Yeah.
SPEAKER_04Um until Joey's mom really rejected the case.
SPEAKER_02Well, she kind of rejected her. She sort of passively or aggressively rejected her. Yeah, but she's like, it's not my decision to make, you have to talk to my son.
SPEAKER_04Yeah, when they when their two children were thinking about getting married, and then of course they didn't have to worry about it after a certain point.
SPEAKER_00But I thought she passively rejected her throughout. I mean, even when you think so. Well, even when they the mother, uh Joey and Robert's mother, or not Robert, the her son.
SPEAKER_04Uh Edward. Edwards.
SPEAKER_00When she went to the quote recital at the house, I mean, she was like just I think there to be polite, but she couldn't wait to get out.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, there was tension there too, right? But the problem there was that uh Fanny's mother, we should probably figure out these people's names. But Fanny's mother's character was really trying to act above herself. She really was. Well, I think she was like she was really putting on sort of this.
SPEAKER_00She was, yeah.
SPEAKER_02But I think I think And that's probably what rubbed her the wrong way. Right.
SPEAKER_00But I think she always sort of was not real nice to Ellen.
SPEAKER_04Ellen Bridges. Okay. Yeah.
SPEAKER_00Ellen.
SPEAKER_04Um and they were such good friends.
SPEAKER_02I mean, they made a point of saying at the beginning they were very good friends when they when there was a employer-employee relationship.
SPEAKER_04It was interesting.
SPEAKER_00Uh but I think once that relationship was broken, and she was trying to move up.
unknownYeah.
SPEAKER_00Especially at the end.
SPEAKER_02Well, I think I think what what's what's the mother's the main character's name?
SPEAKER_04Um, that was um Jane Marriott.
SPEAKER_02I think Jane's character is of the old British afraid of people making money and overtaking them who don't necessarily by that period, the aristocracy of England was only powerful because they had positions that had been handed down to them. Most of them were money-wise, the money had gone. Yeah. So when these when these up-and-coming people were starting to challenge the class system by making loads of money, but weren't of the same class background, right? It became fairly personal to them because this is a danger to their sure to their existence, yeah. And and new money did come across uh like the way that Ellen is portraying herself in some of it. New money became almost as sort of elitist and dismissive and terrible as more in fact, more so than old money, which is actually still true.
SPEAKER_04Yeah, it is well, they don't they didn't like the fact that old money was based on no merit whatsoever. It was, you know, it was just passed down from one generation to the next. That was a good thing.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, well, well, it was based on merit from about 500 years ago.
SPEAKER_04Exactly. Yeah, also I've realized why I really liked Ellen. I kept thinking of all the actors and actresses in the movie. I liked her so much, and I was just realizing I've seen her in so many things. Bride of Frankenstein, The Invisible Man, The Adventures of Robin Hood. I mean, she's gonna say I thought the actress Una O'Connor, I was like, but she's always playing a much more over-the-top character. Oh wow.
SPEAKER_02I mean, she's pretty over at the top in this.
SPEAKER_04She's this is way restrained compared to like, especially in The Invisible Man, where she's just literally running around screaming her head off the whole time.
SPEAKER_00It's not about the old the original Invisible Man, yeah, yeah. Not the new one.
SPEAKER_02Claude Rains. Yeah. Okay. It's so good. That is the that is the best version of that film. Uh so I realize I like her. But he's not in this. Um, yeah, I think, and I struggled for not quite as long as Glenn. I would say the first 15 minutes for me were pretty rough because there was a lot of stage acting from from one character. Well, from Jane in particular. Everybody else is fine. And Jane, weirdly, the actress, was fine for large swaths of the film. But there were certain periods where well, no, it was it was when she was playing Distraught that she would really go into this sort of over-the-top, stage acting, melodramatic, looking off into the distance, putting her hand on her forehead, sort of Diana Winyard. I've got the vapors acting.
SPEAKER_00Yes, yeah, I need a fainting catch.
SPEAKER_02Which which sort of very silent movie kind of broad acting.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, and kind of no one else was doing that.
SPEAKER_02Right. Correct. Like certainly her husband, uh, he was playing it relatively straight.
SPEAKER_03Yeah, yeah.
SPEAKER_02Um, and actually, I thought he was one of the better characters in the film. I think he was one of the better actors in the film.
SPEAKER_04He needed more screen time. Okay, he did.
SPEAKER_02He did wander off through large periods. But again, I think that's pretty true to life. I mean, the the father of the house would have been pretty hands-off in that time period. Um, but it's unclear that he he must have had a job. Well, like he didn't necessarily have to have a job. I mean, if he was a very old aristocracy, he probably didn't have a job, but he did leave for periods of time. Well, and he was a military man, he was a full-time army guy. So um, yeah, in terms of there was some interesting camera camera work, some interesting cinematography. I actually thought the part that I thought was going to well, how could I have thought it was going to be bad because I hadn't seen it yet? The part that I was for the first like seconds or so, like the war scenes, I'm like, this is a weird way to do this. But then, like when it became increasingly more psychotic, I'm like, oh, this is actually a really interesting way of doing this. Yeah.
SPEAKER_00So if it's if you're speaking about what I commented about, the superimposed the transition through World War One. Right. And I thought it was terribly distracting. Um, I know that it must have been very interesting to be able to do that cinematography-wise, but um, I thought even though it caused anxiety uh the way it was filmed, I didn't care for it at all. Yeah, I mean, it did get across anxiety, yeah, but it annoyed me. Sorry. That's fair.
unknownYeah.
SPEAKER_02Uh yeah, I thought it was brilliant. Um it sort of reminded me. I fall somewhere in between. It bizarrely reminded me of the Willy Wonka's scene with when the Gene Wilder character going through the tunnel and all of these crazy images are flashing before you, which is sort of what they were going for here. Yeah. And there was like very subtle, like the crucifix starting the part of it as the war got further and further along, and and the changes in people's visual facial images as it went along.
SPEAKER_04Right. Even the changes in the faces of the three women who were singing the recruiting songs got more and more like psychotic as it went on.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, it was really interesting. Yeah. Uh I arguably that was some of the best filmmaking in it, I felt.
SPEAKER_00But I feel I feel like just in general, if I could sum it up, is that I think it didn't this, I know you don't integrate. I think it didn't pick a lane, and I think it didn't go deep enough into what I think it should have. So I was left feeling um, feeling down, like I was cheated.
SPEAKER_02But I also feel this movie has similar parallels to Grand Hotel, whereas it is literally just you're dropped in the these people's lives, and this is a slice of their life. And this is, you know, for better or worse, probably what it was like to be in one of those households in and it's a very specific yeah, it's a very specific level of society that you're dropped into. Right. You're not dropped into like the east end of London.
SPEAKER_03Right. Yeah.
SPEAKER_02You're dropped into sort of slightly fading upper middle class, upper class aristocracy. They do, and they even mention about things changing, things are changing and well, and and that and again the mod they do a second montage at the end of the film, yeah, where you really start to realize that this is sort of the the I'm thinking it's the characters, because they they have their they're their goodbye where they're talking about the past of England and the future of England, and then they have this model, this montage of things that's right where you you can see how crazy things change in such a short period of time. Yeah, and these two poor people, this old couple on the couch, and how they're just basically gonna be steamrolled over by what's coming in the future, yeah that that they're thankfully probably not gonna make through.
SPEAKER_04But and and interestingly for us, so we see that ending even differently than audiences then did because we know we literally know what's coming in just two years.
SPEAKER_02Literally, the last scene of the film takes place during the year the film is made. So to them, it's current day.
SPEAKER_04That's like the year Hitler came to power. Yeah. And but people then watching that film didn't know what was coming. Nope. Um, we do, and so like it's much more powerful them not knowing what the future's holding, but the holding on to the future. It's just weird that we get to see.
SPEAKER_00And they're looking forward to a bright future. Future, yeah. And and things are over now, and things are gonna get back to normal.
SPEAKER_02Although in that montage, it's clear that the filmmakers are saying this is all gonna happen again.
SPEAKER_04Yeah, yeah.
SPEAKER_02And by 1933, it was starting. You could sort of start to I mean, if you were prescient, you could see the writing on the wall. Right. There were problems, there were problems, and you and one would hope things had not been resolved the way to make that mistake again. Incorrect.
SPEAKER_04Yeah, but now we're starting to realize well, yeah, because they were talking about politicians and everything, and now yeah, you had the different people uh soapboxing talking about the different uh ways we could go.
SPEAKER_02But there were also people in 1933 who honestly thought what the couple did was that it I'm optimistic and things are gonna be fine. And yeah, it's interesting. 2026, yeah, you absolutely knew things were not going to be fine, and really things were not gonna be good for England uh again for for another 30 years. I would say not even like the 60s were kind of a rough period for England as well. I mean, it's when they sort of gave us a lot of cultural things, but it was still uh not not great, and the 70s certainly were pretty dark period for England into the 80s. Yeah, I mean it's been a it's been a it's been a long time. At least they weren't rationing food in the 70s and the 80s. That's well, yeah, except they weren't also they also weren't picking up garbage in the 70s, so and they were closing the mines in the 80s, so it was uh it was a rough place. Anywho, we could probably move on to our uh uh four main categories of rating to figure out where we're going to live this film as a reminder. We have four categories which we rate out of five, so the total film can have a total out of 20, and those categories are visuals, story, acting, and rewatchability. And we will we have to collectively decide amongst ourselves, and we will start with visuals. Obviously, some of the visuals worked better for some of us than they did for others, but yeah, go ahead. Although you did like the costumes.
SPEAKER_00Uh God did I love the costumes. How did you know that?
SPEAKER_02Because you said it while we were watching the film. Yeah, I didn't take a Sherlock and heard you say the word.
SPEAKER_00I loved seeing the presentation of the Victorian era. I loved then seeing the presentation of the 20s through the costumes.
SPEAKER_02But you hated the Edwardian era.
SPEAKER_00No, but I liked that too. But but just through the costumes I thought were absolutely stunning, through the music, uh, through uh the homes that they lived in. I I just and I and I absolutely agree that that cinematography was probably amazing. I just didn't care for it. So visuals for me were pretty high.
SPEAKER_02Um it also just looked good.
SPEAKER_00It did look like it. It looked good. It did look good. I I'm gonna go with a three for visuals.
SPEAKER_04Okay. I'm I was less impressed overall uh by the whole film visually, but parts of it I thought were gen genuinely.
SPEAKER_02I mean, some of it is just staged like a play, yeah. And they literally went and filmed the play in order to take ideas for the film.
SPEAKER_04That's that's I maybe some of that bothered me that I thought they could have done better because they did do some beautiful camera movements in certain segments. When they went to whatever that ball was, yeah, um that was fantastic. But it looked like it to me, that looked like it came from a different movie from a lot of it, because they spent a lot of it in that room. They even talk about so much has happened to us over the years in this room, and and that's very stage play-like, where they're gonna sit there and face the face the audience and do their thing. So, in that regard, I thought, man, they could have done more visually with this.
SPEAKER_02And that's sort of still true to this day. You can always kind of tell when a lot of people have expenses thought the same thing.
SPEAKER_04Um, but then they would go and they'd they'd be aboard the Titanic, or then they'd be talking about the war and going to different places. And again, it was good. But I mean, so you gave it a three.
SPEAKER_00I did.
SPEAKER_04I I don't know if I'd I don't know if I'd give it a three or a like a two and a half. I'm I'm gonna be generous and give it a three. For the time, I gotta put myself in the time period. It it did what they wanted to do. It's a three.
SPEAKER_02Um, I'm probably a little hotter on the visuals, but uh I don't know that I'd go four, but I'd probably go three and a half.
SPEAKER_00Okay.
SPEAKER_02Uh, but we can do three. I will say the one nitpick. Okay. Okay. Okay, we'll do three and a half. I will say the one nitpick I have about it, which I'm just remembering now, uh, they misidentified the uh uh Titanic uh registration location because they had uh I think it said Southampton. It did a Belfast? No, it's it was registered Liverpool. It was not built in Liverpool, right? But the headquarters of Whitestar was in Liverpool. It was actually, I think, built in the Southampton. But the ship itself said Liverpool.
SPEAKER_04It left from Southampton.
SPEAKER_02Yes. Yeah, okay.
SPEAKER_04But it did.
SPEAKER_02Uh and I think it actually stopped in Liverpool before it went. Might have. But the ship itself said Liverpool on the back because South because White Star was a Liverpool company.
SPEAKER_03Okay.
SPEAKER_02Um, anyways, nothing to do with it, I think. One nitpick. Story. I w Another thing I would point out, which is kind of related. To the story, which I found interesting, is the musical number at the end where she sings the song in the 20s.
SPEAKER_03Yeah.
SPEAKER_02Is because they have they have musical numbers scattered throughout. Because Noel Coward famously also quite a good songsmith. But the fact that the the tone will shift in the musical numbers as the movie goes along subtly to the her last song being really kind of dark, even though it's bookended by this band that's playing like 1920s jazz, like dance, dance, jazz. But her song is quite melancholy.
SPEAKER_03Yes.
SPEAKER_02Compared to even the first musical number they had, which was all sort of upbeat, kind of. I felt that was an interesting bit of storytelling as well.
SPEAKER_04Yeah.
SPEAKER_02Uh story. Again, you have to consider the fact that this is like the Grand Hotel. It's kind of it is what it is. You're following a family, for better or worse.
SPEAKER_00I think for for what they did. I think the plot was good. The storytelling made sense to me. I liked how it went over a series of years. Um I like I said, I just was a little disappointed, and maybe I'm thinking, you know, I would have liked it just a completely different movie about something the same. And I I should grade it on what I watched. And I I would probably give it a two and a half for a story. Or I could push a three if anybody wants to push a three.
SPEAKER_02Uh you may have to, because I'm giving it a higher than that. Uh the forest the forest Gumpian element of it, I like too, how it introduced sometimes relatively subtly, events that were historically very important into their lives. And it sort of was the reason that the vignette shifted in some cases.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, I like the nod to the Titanic to the death of Queen Victoria. Yeah. Uh they they helped.
SPEAKER_02They helped.
unknownYeah.
SPEAKER_02Official declaration of war.
SPEAKER_00Yes.
SPEAKER_04I think the story is a good story. I don't know if I liked the execution so much. So just story alone, I mean, it's Noel Coward. I mean, you know he's gonna do a good a good story. I'm just not convinced they executed it effectively for me, just watching it. So, like, I I didn't love the story the way they presented it to me.
SPEAKER_03Okay.
SPEAKER_04I understand the meat that's on the bones there that and and the the work that Noel Coward did to put into it. I just I don't know. I honestly it's a it's probably the weak weakest point for me.
SPEAKER_02And probably would have been better as a stage play.
SPEAKER_04Yeah, I mean, I wouldn't go higher than a two and a half on the story, uh on the way they presented the story. I think it's a good story badly told. Okay.
SPEAKER_02Uh I mean, I'm probably a three because I probably like the story better than my two elderly co-hosts who lived through it. So I would have thought they would have liked it a lot more. But um but we can go two and a half. It makes the math easy. Uh acting. Now, again this is much like Grand Hotel in this there's one main acting role that I felt was not as good, but everyone else quite good. Yeah. So how how do you judge that? And actually, unlike Grand Hotel, I thought there were parts where she was very good.
SPEAKER_04I agree.
SPEAKER_02And parts that were where she wasn't. Whereas in Grand Hotel, I thought that acting was bad basically throughout the film.
SPEAKER_04Yeah. I think the actress who played Jane was hit or miss, like much like you. Times where I thought she was quite good, and and in particular, just facial expressions, watching other characters talk, or even interacting with them, when she would almost go on like monologues, she lost me completely. Because she just about turned to the audience.
SPEAKER_02Well, it was real again, it was really any time she was worked up where she was she was stressed out or angry about something, right? Is when she lost the plot acting-wise. But like her scenes with her friend, her neighbor friend, yeah, were all quite good. Her scene at the end with the husband. Yeah. I mean, she's those she was good in. It's just there was like two or three scenes where she's doing the full-on, sort of over-the-top hammy.
SPEAKER_04Most of the other acting was good. You don't get um a lot with Edward and the other the woman who drowned the uh on the Titanic with his wife.
SPEAKER_02I guess I thought that's but I thought the one scene they had together was convincing.
SPEAKER_04I like them. Yeah, I thought that was that was good acting. I thought I thought uh Mr. Marriott was great throughout the entire film. Yeah, you know, every time.
SPEAKER_02And by the way, the age acting, quite good as well.
SPEAKER_04Yeah, I I agree. So I I thought the honestly, I thought the acting was pretty good, except for one person in parts. Yeah, I would give it at least a three and a half. Yeah.
SPEAKER_00I have to agree with both of you. Uh, I thought the acting was really very well done. I thought even the two young boys did a really good, good job as children. Yeah. Yeah, but then I also liked them as grown-ups. But yeah, mom, mom, for the same exact reasons you guys have pointed out. Um, I even liked the quote downstairs staff. I liked the people who was killed, I liked.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, me too. And I thought he did a good job acting his downfall. Yeah, so to speak.
SPEAKER_00I think acting overall, I I would definitely do three and a half. I I could again push a little further.
SPEAKER_02Uh yeah, because I'm I'm probably at a four. I do, I would have liked more of sassy joey. Yeah. We had like one scene of sassy joey, yes, and then it became sappy I'm in love, Joey. Yeah. I would have liked more of sassy joey.
SPEAKER_03Yes, yes.
SPEAKER_02Uh because I think the sassy joey in that one scene is basically gold coward. The rest of it is kind of um, uh, but I would I would be willing to give it. I was convinced by everyone, so I would I'm probably more of a four, but I wouldn't go three and a half. Okay.
SPEAKER_00We don't we don't do three point seven five, right? No. Oh, okay.
SPEAKER_02That would make the maps very tricky. We just round up at that point, yeah.
SPEAKER_00Okay. Are you okay with three and a half?
SPEAKER_02Uh no, because I already typed in a four. Yeah. I'm okay with it. Glenn said round ups.
SPEAKER_00I'm fine with four because I think so as well.
SPEAKER_02Uh and rewatchability. I think this is an interesting one because I I think I probably would re-watch it. Yeah. Because there's stuff in it that I probably missed because you're spanning a large period of time.
unknownYeah.
SPEAKER_02Um, and there again, there are scenes that I quite liked, and there are character developments that now I know about them. I want to see how they I'd be more interested in seeing how they played out once you knew the direction it was going in. Because if it's your first time watching it, you may not even realize that this is the relationships these people have, and this is how they're supposed to be. And like the class thing, I didn't really quite appreciate until about a quarter of the way in when I realized it was an old coward play. And then I'm like, oh, this is probably more class-based. I should be paying more attention to the subtleties of that. And I think a lot of the front end of the film was probably about that, but in a subtle way that I wasn't paying attention to. Because that's when you get the relationship between their the workers and the agreed.
SPEAKER_00Yeah.
SPEAKER_02And we were probably too busy with her over overly dramatic acting that we weren't paying attention to the more so what do you give it at?
SPEAKER_01Um reach of watchability. I'm probably at a I'm between a three and a three and a half. I'm gonna go three, I think.
SPEAKER_00I also am going with a three. I would probably re-watch it at some point for the same reasons you would. Um and I like I said, I really did enjoy the whole thing. I know of not a soul that I would recommend this movie to.
SPEAKER_02Well, I think not a soul. I think for these early films, I don't think you can really judge it on that because I wouldn't show any of these to anyone because it's just not the type of movies that people are going to be able to appreciate in this day.
SPEAKER_00But we've said about it. Unless you're a film nerd, in which case you've already seen them. Yeah, if you're a film nerd. Yeah, but they would have already seen them. You might have missed something, you know. But if you're not, you're not going to appreciate it. Um, and yeah.
SPEAKER_02These are not films made for a modern viewing audience. The masses are not. Yeah.
SPEAKER_00So did I say three and a half?
SPEAKER_02You said three, I think.
SPEAKER_00You said three.
SPEAKER_04I I can't, I'm I have a lower re-watchability than either of you on this one. I I can't, I mean, for me, I wouldn't go higher than a two and a half on it. If if I say that I want to re-watch it so I can pick up on things I missed the first time, I'm not re-watching it for the right reason. I'm not re-watching me watching it because I liked it. I'm re-watching it because I missed out on some stuff.
SPEAKER_00I want to study it a little more.
SPEAKER_04And that's not that's not just for this film, that's not working for me. So I'd say a two and a half, but that's you guys both gave it three, so we're gonna bump that up to a did you give it a three and a half?
SPEAKER_02I gave it a three.
SPEAKER_00You gave it a three?
SPEAKER_02Oh, I was between a three and a three and a half.
SPEAKER_00Okay.
SPEAKER_02Yeah.
SPEAKER_00So you go with three? Yeah.
SPEAKER_02So that places cattle pretty high at 13 out of the 20, which which is a sort of middle ground. Okay. It is higher than two of the films and lower than three of the films. So and much higher than one in particular.
SPEAKER_04Becoming the film we've got to do.
SPEAKER_02Yes, the inside joke there is uh the Broadway melody has a grand total of 1.5, which is remarkable, seeing as it's out of four categories and then managed to get a 1.5.
SPEAKER_00Could ever do worse. Oh my god I can't imagine.
SPEAKER_02Well, we've got a long road ahead of us. Uh and finally, with that out of the way, we turn to our fun and game segment. And in honor of the World Cup, which at the time of this recording has just gotten into the round of 32, we will be doing a bracket. Bracket, bracket, bracket, bracket. Okay, because everybody loves a bracket. And this is a relatively straightforward and easy one. And in fact, we've probably done it on previous incarnations of the podcast. Yeah. And we're sort of uh we're lucky Glenn is here because he would have been around for all of these.
SPEAKER_00So that means he's gonna win. I should just go.
SPEAKER_02Well, it's not a competition, it's a bracket. So you're picking who you like better out of the two, and then we'll have a finale.
SPEAKER_00A finale with fireworks and stuff.
SPEAKER_02In your own mind, I'm sure there's always set them off. Uh, so the categories here are it's the top 16 females and top 16 males of the AFI 100 stars list. Oh boy. And having looked at the 100 AFI stars list, I realized how very skewed it is to early Hollywood. I bet it is because there is, well, I will say this in the because there's I think it's like the top 50, it's 50 males and 50 females. I think on the list of the top at least 20 of both, there's only one person who's still alive. Wow.
SPEAKER_00Wow, so super skewed.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, and then and I think it's Sophia Loren.
SPEAKER_04Holy moly.
SPEAKER_02Uh, so that gives you some idea. So some of these names go way, way back.
SPEAKER_04Way back.
SPEAKER_02So we're we're we're gonna do 16 females against each other, and then we're gonna sorry, women, and then 16 males against each other, and then whoever wins for both brackets will put those two up against each other, male versus female. Oh, and I think we've done this before, and I suspect I know what the outcomes are going to be, but you never know because the seeding is different. So um, some of them may skirt through. I think the first one I could probably do by the way, do you want to do females first or males first?
SPEAKER_00Females.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, okay. Uh I in that in which case I suspect I know who's going to just manage to get through on the first round here.
SPEAKER_04Can we just give it to her now and then go to her against Jack Lemon?
SPEAKER_02Uh potentially. I think that's what happened last year. It is. But Jack Lemon is not on the male. It's not on there. Oh. He's too young. Okay. Um, so and by the way, these are seeded in the order they are listed in the AFI 100. So number one seed, if you know how to bracket works, number one seed goes up against number 16 seed in a bracket. So number one on the list goes up against number. It's unfair in the first round, but that's how brackets work.
SPEAKER_03Okay.
SPEAKER_02Uh, so in the first round, we have Catherine Hepburn against Vivian Lee. It's Catherine Hepburn. You're allowed to have opinions, at least.
SPEAKER_00It's just your opinion. Yeah. We're not saying who's who's better, who's yeah.
SPEAKER_02No. I mean, AFI has already decided that for you, apparently, but but it's your own personal judgment in this case. AFI says Catherine Hepburn is the greatest female star of all time. But that opinions vary. Because I know a lot of people who don't really like Catherine Hepburn that much.
SPEAKER_00I put Catherine Hepburn on equal standing as Julie Andrews.
SPEAKER_02Oh, okay. Well, we have one on the podcast. Vivian Lee. Okay.
SPEAKER_04You're a tiebreaker.
SPEAKER_02Well, was not expecting that curveball. Thank goodness I'm going with Katherine Hepburn because I've already written her name in. Also, to be honest with you, Vivian Lee, she's okay.
SPEAKER_00I she's fine. I'm not sure.
SPEAKER_02There's a reason she's 16, and that's probably high for me. But uh next up, we have Marlena Dietrich, who is number two on the YAFI list.
SPEAKER_03Okay.
SPEAKER_02Uh no, sorry, she was number nine. Okay. Number C and number nine. Up against number eight on the list, which is Judy Garland.
SPEAKER_00Oh.
SPEAKER_02Vastly different characters.
SPEAKER_00I'm gonna go with Judy Garland. Vastly different talents. Yeah.
SPEAKER_02Um well, yeah, different kind of talent. Different kind of talent. Although they were all sort of all they were both sort of all-arounders. I know. They both sang, they both danced, they both acted. I think they're both excellent. I think they were both better at everything than acting.
unknownYeah.
SPEAKER_02I mean I think they were both better entertainers than they were. That's what I'm trying to think.
SPEAKER_04Like, okay, so they were both really good as entertainers. Who did I like as an as an actor, like acting?
SPEAKER_02And I guess we didn't really specify, but I guess we are basing it on acting rather than overall.
SPEAKER_04I mean, I I know she was a child star that grew up into an ad almost she died young, an adult star, but well, young-ish.
unknownYeah.
SPEAKER_04I actually prefer Marlena Dietrich as an actress.
SPEAKER_02Yeah. I'm sort of with you on it.
SPEAKER_00I mean, I So did you already write that?
SPEAKER_02No, I haven't written anything. And you you said Judy?
SPEAKER_00Uh-huh. Yeah. Judy. Yeah, it's probably a judge.
SPEAKER_02Okay, well, A, that's from a film that she's not in, and B, he never said it. Uh next up we have number five seed Greta Garbo, who was in a previous film that we've reviewed on the story podcast. And I don't think any of us particularly cared for her in the film. But again, that's just one film.
SPEAKER_00The It Girl.
SPEAKER_02And in fact, I did No, she's not the It Girl. Clara Bow is the It Girl.
SPEAKER_00Oh.
SPEAKER_02And in fact, I did mention Greta Garbo, the fact that we watched Greta Garbo in Grand Hotel. Yeah, she did. She's in Grant. Oh, you were in Grand Hotel. She's in Wings. Clara Beau.
SPEAKER_00Yeah.
SPEAKER_04Oh, I thought she didn't see Grand Hotel.
SPEAKER_02You didn't see Grand Hotel. But I didn't see Greta Garb.
SPEAKER_00Yeah.
SPEAKER_02So I mentioned to somebody that we watched Greta Garbo in the Grand Hotel, and they're like, oh, that's not the role you need to see her in. Did you see? Right? Ninochka? Yeah. Yeah. And I said, yeah. That's that we didn't watch that. They're like, oh no, that's the one you have to watch.
SPEAKER_04Yeah.
SPEAKER_02So Greta Garbo up against number 12 seed Claudette Colbert.
SPEAKER_04I like Claudette Colbert. I do as well. Yeah. She's I think she's better. Oh, and she's she's got good, she's funny. She's good.
SPEAKER_02She's got chops, as they say.
unknownChops.
SPEAKER_02Greta Garbo, I feel, was more of a I can't even say entertainer. She was more of a symbol. Symbol. She was an icon. Icon. Yeah.
SPEAKER_00That's why I'm picking her.
SPEAKER_02Okay. Boy, you're not having much luck getting people through on this. Uh next up. Well, one day you'll agree with us. Next up, we have uh 13-seed Grace Kelly up against four-seed Ingrid Bergman.
SPEAKER_00Oh, that's a no-brainer.
SPEAKER_02Ingrid Bergman also. Ingrid Bergman.
SPEAKER_00Yeah.
SPEAKER_02Yeah.
unknownYeah.
SPEAKER_00Grace Kelly also icon.
SPEAKER_02But although I think Grace Kelly was a good actress. She's a good actress. She just left early. Yeah. Ingrid Bergman had some very interesting roles later in life. She did. Which kind of boosts her score a little bit. Yeah. I would argue almost unrecognizable roles.
SPEAKER_03Yeah.
SPEAKER_02Where she's really not the Ingrid Bergman you're expecting. Uh next up we have the number three on the list, Audrey Hepburn, which I think is wildly wildly high for Audrey Hepburn. Uh up against number 14, Ginger Rogers.
SPEAKER_04Oh, I I'm Ginger Rogers all day long. I think she is phenomenal.
SPEAKER_02Yes. Well, I think she's a phenomenal dancer. Oh, I think she's a very good actress. Yeah.
SPEAKER_00See, I you say her name, and I just think dancer. I can't even think of a movie she was in where if she wasn't dancing.
SPEAKER_04She acted in every movie she was in, but as well as dance.
SPEAKER_00Predominantly then dance. Like she didn't act in a movie and not dance, did she, in anything? When she was older. Yeah, I think she did.
SPEAKER_02Yeah.
SPEAKER_00Okay. I I probably didn't see it.
SPEAKER_02I mean, it wasn't like Gene Kelly, where Gene Kelly had a career, a separate career that was just him as an actor versus him as a dancer. Grace Kelly is predominantly known as a dancing actor. Ginger Rogers. Ginger Rogers is predominantly known as a dancing actress. Yeah.
SPEAKER_00And and I love Audrey Hepburn.
SPEAKER_04See, I think and I think of Audrey Hepburn. I think she's wonderful. I think she's classy, all that stuff. Again, sort of like an icon.
SPEAKER_00Yeah.
SPEAKER_04I I tend to find her quite boring in a lot of ways.
SPEAKER_00I'm gonna go with Ginger Rogers.
SPEAKER_02Okay. Glenn? Yeah. Ginger Rogers.
SPEAKER_00For that reason, she is a little boring. I just always like her.
SPEAKER_01Because she's in, isn't is she not in charade? Oh no, no, no, wait. Yeah, charade. Cary Grant. Yeah. I can't get through that film. I just find it so tedious. And I get it. People love that movie. They love it. Yeah. And like Walter Mathow's fine in it, but it's I just find it she's so dull in it. Um, next up, number 11, Barbara Stanwick.
SPEAKER_02Up against number six, Marilyn Monroe. A Stanwick. Now it's a better one. Again, Marilyn Monroe slides in, I guess, under the icon. Yeah. Not to say that she wasn't a good actress. Decent actress when she when she when she bothered to do it.
SPEAKER_04Yeah. Yeah. And she actually had good comedic skills.
SPEAKER_02She had good comedic skills. She had decent dramatic skills.
SPEAKER_04Yeah.
SPEAKER_02It's just, I think, the personal side of it kind of.
SPEAKER_04But Barbara Stanwyck was just, she was Powerhouse. Powerhouse. Yeah, absolutely phenomenal in everything she did.
SPEAKER_00Agreed with everything you said about Barbara Stanwyck.
SPEAKER_04She was, I find I always found Barbara Stanwyck both the type of character. She played characters who allured me and also could scare the crap out of me. Like she was really good.
SPEAKER_02It just sounds like she played women.
SPEAKER_00So I go for Barbara also. Okay.
SPEAKER_02Next up we have the number seven on the list, Elizabeth Taylor, both actress and icon, I would argue. Correct. Up against number 10, Joan Crawford, who we just recently saw in the Grand Hotel.
SPEAKER_04Who's good in the Grand Hotel?
SPEAKER_02Good in the Grand Hotel, better in other things, much worse in other things.
SPEAKER_04Here, I run hot and cold with Elizabeth Taylor. Same.
SPEAKER_02I mean, Elizabeth Taylor was also in a lot of bad things. She was. But I later in life.
SPEAKER_04But I have I have a hot take on her and Richard Burton in um Cleopatra? No, who's afraid of Virginia Wolf? And when I see them in that, all I all I see when I see her performing in that is look at me acting.
SPEAKER_02Yes, I don't like her in that. I do like Richard Burton in that. I think he's doing a great job. I think she's and she wins the Oscar for it.
SPEAKER_04Yeah, I just think that was so bad. So she runs real hot and cold for me. I thought she was really good as Cleopatra. She is very good at Cleopatra. I thought she was a good young actress. Yeah.
SPEAKER_00Um she runs cold and cold for me. So I definitely forgot who she's up against.
SPEAKER_04I know. Joan Crawford.
SPEAKER_00I think Joan Crawford is amazing in everything I've seen her. Elizabeth Taylor is more iconic.
SPEAKER_04I think Joan Crawford You've obviously never seen Trog thanks to the couple. I was gonna say right up until the end, Joan Crawford's career was well, she's not gonna win Best Mother Award, but you know.
SPEAKER_00There's a movie called Trog that she's in.
SPEAKER_02Yes, she plays an evil scientist who's creating a sort of Troglodite.
SPEAKER_00Oh god. The whole storyline already sounds hideous. Yeah, she's real bad in it.
SPEAKER_04Yeah, she was horribly miscast. It should have been Audrey Hepburn. Oh god. Um, I want to go with Joan Crawford. Okay. Sorry, Liz.
SPEAKER_02You're also Joan Crawford. Oh, yeah. I probably actually would have gone Elizabeth Taylor on this one.
SPEAKER_04Yeah. Paul Newman's rolling over in his grave right now because he loved the heck out of her. I did not like her.
SPEAKER_02Um don't like the fact that she basically ended Richard Burton, but two marriages to Elizabeth Taylor will do that. That'll do it too. Uh next up we have 15 Mae West up against number two ranked Betty Davis.
SPEAKER_04I think it's easy for me, but it's easy for me. It's Betty Davis.
SPEAKER_00It's Betty Davis. Yeah.
SPEAKER_04Mae West could do one thing well, and that's it.
SPEAKER_02And she did it very early.
SPEAKER_04Yeah. Yes. She tried to do it way late in her career.
SPEAKER_02That intro, yes, with about an inch and a half of makeup on. Uh so we move on to the final eight, I guess. Uh Catherine Hepburn is pitted against Marlena Dietrich.
SPEAKER_04I know what Elisa's gonna do.
SPEAKER_00Marlena Dietrich.
SPEAKER_04Yeah. And I'm gonna go Catherine Hepburn. And and she's somebody who bugs me in some movies. Like there's there's movies she's in where I don't like her.
SPEAKER_00Yeah.
SPEAKER_04But I look at her career and think, best of mine.
SPEAKER_02I don't love early Catherine Hepburn. Like even bringing a baby. I don't love her.
SPEAKER_04Well, that's I was thinking of that in particular.
SPEAKER_02Yeah. But like I love her. I think she's very good in the Philadelphia story. But again, I think she's sort of playing herself in the Philadelphia story more than she is in Britain.
SPEAKER_04I look at her later. Well, not even later. So you go, you go African Queen, good character there, and then you go later, where she's in uh Guess Who's Coming to Dinner, and then like Rooster Codburn with John Wayne.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, well, and on Golden Pond.
SPEAKER_04On Golden Pond.
SPEAKER_02Yeah.
SPEAKER_04Wonderful.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, she she ages well. Yeah. Catherine Hepran does.
SPEAKER_04And then that movie we saw with Oh, yeah, yeah.
SPEAKER_02With I mean, I can't remember the name of the film. It was James Spader. Yeah, it was like, no, it was not James Spader, it was somebody else.
SPEAKER_04It was made for TV. Somebody like that, though.
SPEAKER_02It was made for TV. She was great. She was very good. I mean, she was arguably the best thing in that film, but that's not really saying a whole lot. Uh next up we have Claudette Colbert up against Ingrid Bergman. If you're hearing a humming noise, that's something like interference in the studio. Sorry. It's keeping Glenn's beer going.
SPEAKER_04That's my college fridge still still going.
SPEAKER_00Repeat, por favor.
SPEAKER_02Uh Claudette Colbert up against Ingrid Bergman.
SPEAKER_00I just I just love Ingrid Bergman. Claudette Colbert is is great, but I just love Ingrid Bergman.
SPEAKER_02A bunch of foreigners.
SPEAKER_00So I'm going with Ingrid.
SPEAKER_04I would go with Ingrid Bergman as well.
SPEAKER_00I just like that one.
SPEAKER_02Uh well, there's already two votes, but it probably would have been my vote as well. Uh next up, Ginger Rogers up against Barbara Stanwyck. I don't know. That was wildly different.
SPEAKER_00Yeah.
SPEAKER_04For me, it's Barbara Stanwyck.
SPEAKER_02Yeah.
SPEAKER_00I I would agree. It's Barbara. Yeah.
SPEAKER_02Just because I want to write the initials BS again. Next up, we have Joan Crawford pitted against Betty Davis.
SPEAKER_03Oh.
SPEAKER_02Or Beth Davis, depending on who you're talking to.
SPEAKER_04I mean, and look at what they were able to do.
SPEAKER_02Um that that is that is a quite a pairing, the two of those. Uh-huh. This is probably the worst, the worst two people you could ask me to pick. Absolutely despised each other.
SPEAKER_00Fabulous. Oh my god.
SPEAKER_04I have to go with Betty Davis. Oh my god.
SPEAKER_02I have to go with Betty Davis. Do you ever watch the series that they did on the two of them? No. So the guy who does the like series on Hollywood sort of scandal things. I forget his name.
SPEAKER_01Like scandals and things, or yeah. Well, he does, he did this, he did.
SPEAKER_02I forget, I can I can't remember what the show was called. But he does, there were like maybe three or four seasons. The one was based on true Truman Capote and his swan.
SPEAKER_04Oh, and the swans.
SPEAKER_02And then the first season was based on Joan Crawford and Betty. I know what you're talking about. And it was so good. But they are so evil to each other. Yes. Just vicious.
SPEAKER_00Yes.
SPEAKER_02In the most sort of Hollywood caddies sort of love it. And even later, like at even to the end of their lives.
SPEAKER_00To the end, yeah, the bitter end. I'm gonna go with Betty.
SPEAKER_02Yeah. I mean, Jordan Crawford would not like that for that.
SPEAKER_00That was horrible to have to choose. Yeah, that's tough.
SPEAKER_02But I mean, whatever happened to Baby Jane is a terrifying film.
SPEAKER_00I that is one of my other favorite films.
SPEAKER_02I mean, first of all, it's good. Second of all, that speaks very highly about you. I'm gonna watch it tonight. But it is it is so bizarre. Yeah, um so in the final four, we have Catherine Hepburn up against Ingrid Bergman.
SPEAKER_04Alright, this this might change.
SPEAKER_00I'm still still gonna go with Ingrid.
SPEAKER_04I think last time, I'm I know last time I went with Catherine Hepburn all the way, but these two never came up against one another, as far as I remember. And boy, Ingrid Bergman, especially later in her career. And even watching her daughter now, who's well, you can't well into her.
SPEAKER_02But I'm just thinking, no, she reminds me of she had a daughter that was great.
SPEAKER_04She reminds me of what she did later in her career.
SPEAKER_02It doesn't hurt that she looks quite like her. Yeah, yeah.
SPEAKER_04Um, I gotta go with Ingra Bergman.
SPEAKER_02Okay.
SPEAKER_00Yeah.
SPEAKER_04I'd and I'd rather I'd rather watch her all day long.
SPEAKER_02Barbara would be quite proud.
SPEAKER_04Yeah.
SPEAKER_02Um, and Barbara Stanwyck up against Betty Davis.
SPEAKER_00Betty Davis for me.
SPEAKER_04I'm gonna make you break the tie. I'm gonna go with Barbara Stanwick. I'm on a Barbara Stanwyck kick, apparently. Yeah, I just I just re-watched um uh double indemnity.
SPEAKER_02Oh yeah, right with uh the world's most boring actor that that's in everything. He's literally like he's the Disney dad of actors, and yet he's in so many films and is quite good at all of them, but he is like he's sort of a Gary Cooper type. Yeah, where it's like we need an actor with no personality for this role. Uh and finally, Ingrid Bergman up against Betty Davis.
SPEAKER_00Oh man. How hard is this? This is horrible.
SPEAKER_04I think I got I have to think of who I would rather watch, whose movies I enjoyed them in more. Like when I think about them in various films, I I I think uh I prefer Ingrid Bergman.
SPEAKER_00If I think of it that way, I would too.
SPEAKER_04It's just like preferenced.
SPEAKER_00Yeah. If you had to had to binge one day, it would be one or the other, it would be probably Ingrid Bergman. Yeah.
SPEAKER_02So you're both voting Ingrid Bergman. Yeah. Okay.
SPEAKER_00Yeah.
SPEAKER_02Well, that would seal the deal then.
SPEAKER_00Yeah.
SPEAKER_02So the winner of the sweet 16, or the the sweet 32, not 32. The winner of the women. The women, the women 32 is Ingrid Bergman. Congratulations. And with that, we're gonna save the men for the next time. Very good.
SPEAKER_03Okay.
SPEAKER_02Uh and with that, I'm afraid we've reached the end of another episode of the Cinema Social Club. If you'd like to write in and I don't know, threaten us with never listening again, you could do so by emailing cinemasocialpod at gmail.com. That's cinema socialpod at gmail.com. Uh, thanks to my two co-hosts who could bother showing up tonight, and also to Sarah, who is probably doing something much better with her time. And uh join us next week when we'll be looking at another Osky Oscar winning picture, and I believe it's one that Glenn is going to especially like. But until then, on behalf of the rest of my co-hosts, it's a goodbye for me. Goodbye.