Squirms!

Ever heard of squirms?  

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Transcript

SPEAKER_02 0:04

This is the Ryan Love show.

SPEAKER_03 0:08

I don't know. I don't know that I'm in a place for to get real deep on your cancer thing right now.

SPEAKER_02 0:14

I think it's just coming off the the worms.

SPEAKER_03 0:17

Yeah, the s yeah I can't go for squirms.

SPEAKER_02 0:21

No no no not squirms.

SPEAKER_03 0:28

You can't even do it.

SPEAKER_02 0:29

Courtney, I'm here the side. I can try.

SPEAKER_03 0:32

It wasn't fin. We were having fin the fat squirm. Nobody likes the swerm. Nobody likes the fat squirm.

SPEAKER_00 0:39

Yeah, you're the old fat squirm. Let's let's hear yours again, Chen's.

SPEAKER_02 0:43

I got to the computer. I'm glad we're not really live. Oh my god.

SPEAKER_03 0:47

Yeah, what's your squirm sound? Squirms! That's the that's the gay, happy squirm. And when I say gay, not sexual, I'm talking like that's a happy fucking squirm.

SPEAKER_00 0:59

I wish I had that pitch tone.

SPEAKER_03 1:01

What wouldn't what would mine be? What would mine be, Chaz? Squirm! I actually kind of want to see the squirms come to life. Is that bad?

SPEAKER_02 1:10

No, it's not. In fact, it it it came about. Okay, now that we've got the music out of the way, I can actually talk. Okay.

SPEAKER_03 1:15

So I love the music.

SPEAKER_02 1:17

You know, that was okay, by the way, just side note, I made that.

SPEAKER_03 1:20

I don't know if you knew that. It wasn't that good though.

SPEAKER_02 1:22

Yeah, I know. It's not my best. And even I'm willing to accept that. You know what?

SPEAKER_03 1:27

By by the end of the show, I do want to hear it again. And maybe the last 30, 45 seconds, let us listen to that as we end the show. Can we do that? Whatever you want, man. Because if that's your work, I would like to I would like to give it some terrible. No, I no. Anyway, what were you saying?

SPEAKER_02 1:45

Oh, about the the squirms? Yeah. Yeah, so I had this idea, like, because Courtney and I have been, you know, we've been together for like almost two years now. So one of the jokes that we had was like, you know, just in our playfulness. And Corey, if you're Courtney, if you're listening, oh my god, I called her Corey. Oh my god, I just called her Corey.

SPEAKER_03 2:08

Yeah, and he just called her the wrong name.

SPEAKER_02 2:10

Whoa. That's alright.

SPEAKER_03 2:11

I called him Chase the other day. That's okay.

SPEAKER_02 2:13

I forgive you on that. That's okay. You're good.

SPEAKER_03 2:15

So what's her name? Um who are we talking about? Well, you said Courtney, and you got mad at yourself.

SPEAKER_02 2:22

Oh yeah, Courtney. Yeah, okay. No, so we had I don't know where I'm going with this. We we just had this cute little idea in her playfulness. We're like, you know, just you know, poker. And she goes, Don't you jerk worm me. And I think she said that, and that's where I was like, oh, I can make a whole universe out of this. So this became a GPT caterpillar worm with boxing gloves. And they giggle, me, me, me, me, me, me, me, me, me. They just they just fight you all the time. That's all they do.

SPEAKER_03 2:50

I think we're getting a sense of Chaz's foreplay.

SPEAKER_02 2:53

Oh my hey. I might be getting a sense of that, and I don't even know, man.

unknown 3:00

All right.

SPEAKER_00 3:00

So in the I'm I I I have to say, anything around the idea of like playfulness, like I'm loving this, honestly. Like, I I want my being and my humanity and my mind to take me into these fun, playful moments a lot more. Like, there's plenty of opportunity to be serious, right? Like, I I have definitely been one that has taken myself way too fucking serious. So true. You know?

SPEAKER_01 3:23

Yep.

SPEAKER_00 3:23

Um, like I really enjoy when people just make silly videos when they're dancing, when they're floating through the air, when there's just like no real sense of like who's watching or how it looks or anything. Like, God, that's so epic, so beautiful. And it's sad that we're even uh that I'm even saying it that way because it ought to just be fucking normal. You would think, right? Right.

SPEAKER_03 3:50

But the older you get, the less normal it is. You know, we were gonna we were gonna end the last podcast on doing this, and we we didn't get to it because you had one of your thought-provoking moments. Caught us all off guard. But if if we were going to say what we thought the other person was reincarnated, what would it be? And Chaz, I want to start with you and I guessing what do we think Ryan Lef would have been if he was reincarnated to his current form form, if reincarnation was such a thing, what was he before? Any ideas?

SPEAKER_02 4:29

I got a good one. You're not gonna like Ryan, you're not gonna like this.

SPEAKER_03 4:32

Oh, I'm gonna love it. Hold on, hold on. I got a good one too. But but Chaz, I'm I'm I'm anxious to hear yours.

SPEAKER_02 4:37

Yeah, I want Chaz to go first. Okay. A liger.

SPEAKER_00 4:42

A liger.

SPEAKER_03 4:43

That's like a that's like uh something and a tiger. What is it? Have any of you people seen Napoleon Dynamite? Yeah, but it's been so long.

SPEAKER_00 4:53

It's been too long, bro. It I don't even remember anything of the colour.

SPEAKER_02 4:55

That's a cross between a lion and a tiger. Come on, guys, I can't believe you don't know this. Barlow, you of all people should know.

SPEAKER_03 5:01

A liger. All right. I was gonna say an obese squirrel.

SPEAKER_02 5:05

Oh, that would have been really good.

SPEAKER_03 5:06

Yeah. Yeah. I was gonna say an obese squirrel.

SPEAKER_00 5:09

So you guys were thinking something completely different than a human being. I was thinking of like what kind of human being would have I been before?

SPEAKER_02 5:16

Oh, he would have been fat Albert.

SPEAKER_00 5:23

That's good. That was three lifetimes ago.

SPEAKER_03 5:26

Yeah, that's actually really good. So you actually you think if reincarnation was such a thing, you think in the in the human form.

SPEAKER_00 5:35

I mean, why not, right? Like, I mean, if I can if I could have been an animal, why couldn't have I been a different human before?

SPEAKER_03 5:42

All right, let's go to Chaz.

SPEAKER_00 5:44

I have a friend right now that I really enjoy. He actually 1000% believes he is currently incarnated in another human that he met, and that he's actually in his body and her body.

SPEAKER_03 5:59

We gotta have him on the show.

SPEAKER_00 6:00

D. Miles from Oklahoma City.

SPEAKER_03 6:02

We gotta bring him on. Let's do it.

SPEAKER_00 6:04

No, seriously. Oh, he is a fascinating human.

SPEAKER_03 6:07

What a great conversation. He truly believes that.

SPEAKER_00 6:10

He, dude, with every fiber in his being.

SPEAKER_03 6:13

And has he convinced you that that's true?

SPEAKER_00 6:15

He hasn't convinced me it's not.

SPEAKER_03 6:17

That's a good point. So, what do we think Chaz would be if Chaz was reincarnated in his current form right now? Don't get it wrong. What was he before this?

SPEAKER_00 6:26

Don't get it wrong. He was probably like the Dalai Lama. He was probably the freest thinker you could ever imagine. No guardrails. No guardrails. He probably allowed anything and everything. He was a sexual goddess. I mean, women traveled from all over just to be given an orgasm by Chaz. What a beautiful soul decided that he needed the complete contrast of the exact opposite in his next life.

SPEAKER_01 6:59

Thus, Chaz. Thus, Chaz. I was gonna say a piranha. I think you think your story's much better than my. You can't tell me that doesn't make sense.

SPEAKER_03 7:09

It does. Perfect sense. I mean, right? I was a squirm. She was a squirm.

SPEAKER_00 7:19

All right, what about me? In my past life, I know. Yeah. You were you were like an accountant. You followed all the rules.

SPEAKER_02 7:26

Oh, that's terrible.

SPEAKER_00 7:27

Yeah. And he's just going with the contrast. Yeah. Yeah. And you um like lived in like um um like a a three-bed. No, no, no. You're gonna say horse. No, no, no, no, no. No, I was not. No, no, no. You lived in like the typical, perfect, exact traditional home with like the white picket fence, and you dotted all the I's and crossed all the T's and travel. You and your wife looked perfect to everybody outside. You had two and a half kids. Only had missionary sex. Absolutely. Yeah, like and it was just and and you actually like really genuinely told people like your life was amazing. You really thought it was.

SPEAKER_01 8:05

Barla, did you just say you were a missionary? But I couldn't and your soul was like, Man, I gotta send him back. He has no idea what real amazing is. I buy into that theory. I buy that's good. Jazz, what about you?

SPEAKER_02 8:24

I don't know, man. I'm a squirm.

SPEAKER_01 8:26

Squirm. I don't know. I think when he's uncomfortable, he squirms. He squirms.

SPEAKER_02 8:31

Ew.

SPEAKER_01 8:32

Ew.

SPEAKER_03 8:33

I was gonna say something else, but I won't on this podcast. Maybe some other time. Interesting concepts.

SPEAKER_02 8:40

This is the silly episode.

SPEAKER_00 8:41

Isn't it fun though? No, it really Like why why is it that the subjects like this can't be talked about if we can't know for sure? Like, I just who made up that idea? Like, why can't we just be silly?

SPEAKER_03 8:55

Well, yeah, and it is. It's it's very fascinating to think that what I mean because there's a real possibility that that that might have have been the case. And I'm just coming back in in my creative, innovative form. And let me tell you, this is much more fun. So you believe.

SPEAKER_00 9:12

So I think right, right, right. But remember the part about what I said, when you were incarnated as the other guy, you genuinely thought that that was the best. Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 9:22

So maybe the secret is to recognize that whatever form you're in, be the best and the happiest in that form.

SPEAKER_00 9:30

Yes, and getting it, Barlow. How great is that? It's only episode like 14 or something, man. I tell you, I you are a quick damn learner. It's Chaz you gotta worry about. Chaz is the problem. I'm worried about him. He's the problem. No, he's not. I'm loving him.

SPEAKER_03 9:46

He's defiant.

SPEAKER_00 9:47

Plus, he's got like, you know, what is he, 47 years younger than you are or something like that?

SPEAKER_03 9:51

Jesus. Here we go.

SPEAKER_00 9:52

He's got like what, five decades to catch up?

SPEAKER_03 9:55

That old.

SPEAKER_00 9:55

I mean, he's already this open. Like he hasn't ran out the back door. Crying. He didn't look for another job. Not yet. It didn't scare him before he actually got to know me. He does cry too. He sat and listened to five or six episodes of me. He's got a choice ranting and going up. He does have a choice, right? Well, he probably doesn't because he probably needs the money because he's getting ready to get married. Get married. Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 10:16

And then he's going to Cancun.

SPEAKER_02 10:18

Yeah. Just remember. He's paying for that. Just remember, Ryan. In another life, you were fat Albert.

SPEAKER_03 10:25

That's right. In another life, you were fat Albert, and I was your accountant. Because fat Albert did make a lot of money.

SPEAKER_00 10:31

Man, and you know what? I bet I absolutely enjoyed every taste and bite of the massive amount of food I consumed. Gosh. Speaking of which, wouldn't it be great? And I bet I didn't have any guilt either. No. I bet I ate fucking sugar cookies and cinnamon rolls. And laughing the whole time. Dude, like. Didn't give a shit. Man. And how good actually feels kind of nice. I wish I could just have that for like one day a month. You know what I mean? Like where you could just really enjoy it all and not have your mind or brain tell you any of the oh, it's bad. Oh, you shouldn't do that. Oh, this is gonna happen. Oh, you're gonna get cancer again.

SPEAKER_03 11:13

Well, you know, it's what sucks is when you're young. You don't realize that you should be enjoying your food and your drinks because it's at that time that your body can just consume anything and just release it, and you don't ever have the accountability of gaining any weight from eating whatever you want. And then when you get older, you really learn to enjoy food, but you can only have a very little of it unless you lose control of yourself.

SPEAKER_00 11:31

So here's a fascinating thought. We're really fascinated right now in 2025, in this time in humanity. Like, I feel like we're really fascinated with the idea of longevity. Yeah. But if you don't really enjoy your everyday life, do you really want longevity of that? Correct. Like, I don't know, man. Like, sure, I'd like to be here for a while, but I'd like for whatever time I'm here to be good. Yeah. But like, you know what I mean? Like, like, sex is good, but like good sex is good.

SPEAKER_03 12:06

And will good sex be good when you're 75? I don't know the answer to that. If I'm still alive, it better be. Boy, and I, you know, I have that debate in my head all the time. It's like, I do, I am trying to like I do the whole NADA or NAD treatments uh through uh uh IV therapy. Uh oh, longevity effect? Yeah. And then I do I love longevity effect, right? Yeah, and I also washatkas. Yeah, and then I also do the breathing techniques, and I I have this whole ritualistic thing that I do four to five times a week to try to give me longevity. And I knew I liked you, but you just keep aligning with more and more things that I'm into. This is so cool. Well, and and then but here but here's the debate in my head though, is like, you know, do I really want to live past 80? Because you know, the the rumor is if you can get, you know, if you can live another seven years, you can live another if you if you're alive in seven years, you can live another 20. So let's just let's just do the math on that. If I live 14 years, more years, then there's a chance I could add 40 more years to my current age, which is 106. Yeah. So so like, do I want that? Like, because I think it's quality, I think. Right, because I like I enjoy sex, I enjoy athleticism.

SPEAKER_00 13:15

I don't even know that like I I I wouldn't even necessarily have to be having great sex all the way to 106. Like as long as I like I'm really genuinely able to do a lot of cool things, and I mean it's gotta be within reason, right? But can I breathe without laboring? Oh, for sure. That's like a given, dude. So I'm saying, but like, like there's a lot of things that could still be bringing fulfillment, connection. Maybe it's a season with grandkids, maybe it's um bingo night every Thursday. I don't well, I mean I mean, and listen, like, you know, none of us know how this is gonna work or unfold, right? Like, I don't know. Maybe getting it on with your 80-year-old partner is just different because you think different, you see different, you feel different. I don't know. Or like, what if you were here and your life partner wasn't here? Like, what if I'm here, but Caroline doesn't make it that long? And what if there's like a 35-year-old chick that, you know, decides they're into me? I don't know.

SPEAKER_03 14:07

Like, I mean God, now I'm now I'm listening. Like, what if I mean what if now you're listening? Yeah, like what if I mean yeah, you're 75 and you know, I'm not married right now.

SPEAKER_00 14:18

Hey, I'll tell you this right now. Like, all I'm doing is making it clear. Do not resuscitate me, do not take care of me like I'm some fucking vegetable. Like, I'm happy to be here as long as there's some quality of life. Otherwise, like, dude, see ya. See ya. Leave me alone. Yeah. Yeah. Hey, since anything goes on this show, I can't think of the exact terminology right now, but I want to ask you, Barlow, what do you think about people who are like have end-of-term disease or you know, don't really have a whole lot of hope and they don't have any real will to try to figure out how to overcome it? Like, what do you call it when like a doctor or someone would like assist you to go ahead and pass on?

SPEAKER_03 15:05

Assisted suicide. Okay, or but there's another term for I feel like I don't know, but Dr. Kavorkin was very do you remember Dr. Kavorkin, very controversial back in the day?

SPEAKER_00 15:13

I mean, just the name alone just jumps out at you.

SPEAKER_03 15:15

Well, and now I think, and I don't know what country it is, but it was rumored that the uh, oh, the the rock and roll guy that just passed away, Osborne, uh Ozzy. Ozzy Osborne. The rumor is that that him and his wife, Sharon, were supposed to, when things got really rocky and in doubt as far as his health, they were gonna fly to this country and you go into this chamber that looks like a little tanning bed, enclosed tanning bed, and that's the way you close out your life. They feed you oxygen or uh not oxygen, but oxygen night uh do you have any personal problem with that? No, neither do I. In fact, I I've I thought I don't I don't want to die like I've watched many of my.

SPEAKER_00 15:58

I mean, do you want to burden your family members for five years or a decade or 20 years? Or plus my kids will just say, see ya, love ya, thanks for the the memories. Why have we made that such a deal though? Like, why is it so hard for people to just be like, let them go? Why do I mean I'm I'm I'm not genuinely asking? No, I don't know because like it's a question that comes up for me.

SPEAKER_03 16:18

Like, well, and I think that I think that's kind of silly. Well, and I think it's a great, I think it's a great conversation piece, number one, but number two, I think because we live in a society that's so religious based and it's been embedded in us that suicide in general sends you to hell. Sends you to hell. And so assisted suicide is still suicide, it's just assisted. So nobody wants to go to hell, right? So, but I mean, what what a what a humane way to pass away if you're looking at passing away in a very inhumane way.

SPEAKER_00 16:49

What is the real benefit to humans for believing that them? Well, I I've never really met anybody who believed in hell that thought they were going. Right. Right. Isn't that interesting? That is so interesting. You know, a lot of times the things that we cling to as truth, there's like a payoff. You know, it protects us, it keeps us safe, it makes us feel this way or whatever. Like, I've really asked myself, like, what is the what is the payoff that human beings believe they're getting by believing that there is this hell? And that, like, how do you ever totally have complete inner peace that you're not going when no two people, no two denominations, no two anybody, anything, nothing, can ever absolutely 1000% agree that this is what you got to do? And then how many people can even actually do that, even if they could agree? So, first of all, they can't even agree. Second of all, no one can do it. And then third, what happens if in between you asking for forgiveness again or going to confession or going down and doing your prayers or whatever? Like, what if somehow you you pass away before that happens? Like, it just seems like you're screwed. You're like, damn it, I was I was going to do it. Like the hoops you have to jump through. Yeah, yeah. You know what I mean? Yeah, to ensure question here. Hold on, Chaz. Okay. Wouldn't that be enough right there to just throw the whole damn thing out and think, that's just stupid.

SPEAKER_03 18:25

Yeah, like is God sitting up there and he's like, oh well, here comes here comes Ryan and what he's good, wonder what he's gonna say. Hmm. He's awful, he's walking awful slow. Zap, dead. Oh, hell. Didn't make it. Holy shit. But wait, I was coming to confess. Didn't make it. Sorry. Yep. See you later. Down there. Down there. You're going there. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 18:49

It doesn't it just doesn't add up. Critical thinking is required. It has to be. Well, actually, no, critical thinking is not required if you want to keep believing in hell.

SPEAKER_03 19:01

Yeah. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 19:02

It's required if you like, if you like. Once I started like examining stuff like hell and putting it under the microscope, it was like, whoa. Yeah. Like that scenario you just gave. Damn.

SPEAKER_03 19:20

Well, and to answer your question, I think I think it boils down to manipulation. I think I think we have a manipulation problem with religion. And I think that's why, you know, then it's funny to hear you say that you have you ever heard someone that who actually thinks that they're going to hell believe that there's a hell? And the answer is no. Everybody that believes in it doesn't think they're going. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 19:38

Promise you.

SPEAKER_03 19:39

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 19:39

All right.

SPEAKER_02 19:39

And Jazz, and so those are some of the worst people. Well, I was going to ask you, why do you think it is that we can't really seem to find I not common ground, but why is it that we can't find what what we believe is, you know, correct? We can't all agree. Why why do you think it is that we can't all agree? Because we do have history. And you, you know, we have perceived history. Well that's the the the real question though is what do you mean by perceived history? Because the way I understand history, there was a real Jesus, you know, and I'm not the only one who believes this. There's millions of people like me that believe this.

SPEAKER_00 20:16

And billions of people who don't.

SPEAKER_02 20:17

Right. But that's the point, though, is that we do have lots of people who do believe there was a real Jesus, there was a real Messiah. If, and this is the thing that most Catholics stand on too, either Jesus was real or he wasn't. And if he wasn't, you should all go home because everything that we're doing here is pointless. Right? So if we do have history, why are we not looking at it? And if if if it wasn't real, then what are we all doing?

SPEAKER_00 20:50

I mean, I think the the real answer to your question is it always is gonna have to go back to if I think there is a way for me to get this thing wrong, and if I get it wrong, there is a massive consequence. There's no way for anyone in that framework to ever be in alignment with someone who's concluded that you can't get it wrong. Now, I think objectively, I would say I would rather be out of prison during my time on earth than in prison, and I'm acknowledging that there are consequences and cause and effect. If I kill somebody, I'm gonna be behind bars. I would prefer not to be in a limited experience. I'd like to be able to freely roam about the earth and do all the cool things you can do when you're not in prison. You know? Plus I happen to believe that we're all one. So if I kill somebody else, I basically killed myself. That's the way I see it. So that's That no amount of anger is going to push me to some place where I'm going to do that. But if I see another human as a threat or as an enemy, or I think that they're the reason that's causing me all kinds of suffering and pain, then it would make total sense why I might kill them or I might do something. But then if the only reason I'm not doing it is not because I don't want to, but because I'm afraid of the eternal consequence, well then that's not morality integrated in the first place. Morality integrated is I have a clear understanding that I'm completely free to kill people, do whatever I want. Just none of the consequences. I have zero, I just have zero interest in that. Yeah. Like I can kill someone tomorrow and I don't believe in hell, I don't think it exists. It's not going to change anything as far as once I leave my body. What it is going to change, though, is the kind of experience that I'm getting in the here and now right here on planet Earth.

SPEAKER_03 22:58

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 22:59

That to me is clear. So what if we lived in a world where everybody understood that if you do certain things, it affects you right now? Like that longing to be in an intimate relationship with a woman or a man and have like an incredible romantic partnership? Like, what if you realize that who you show up as would impact that right now? But when we're too busy thinking about what may or may not happen in an afterlife that we can't absolutely determine, all it does is continue to take us out of the present moment. So I just think back to what Chaz asked is like, why can't we all agree? Because the fundamental thing we can't agree on is a large percentage of people think that there is a God who's basically got a notepad and a pen, and he's keeping track like a scoreboard, and he's determining whether or not you are good enough. I mean, to me, it sounds like Santa Claus.

SPEAKER_03 24:04

I mean on the naughty list. And isn't it crazy to think to, you know, I always have that visual of, you know, if you die and you're you're ascending you're ascending to the heavens, and you know, he is he there? Is he there looking at your body of work and going, hmm, wasn't good. Sin here, sin there, or oh, that was that was really good. You're a good person, you did all the right things. You know, like like that just can't, that's not realistic to me. Like that's not that's not God in the form that I choose to see.

SPEAKER_00 24:35

Well, that's why I say it all the time. I believe all gods are made in the image of men. It's not that we're made in the image of God, it's that all gods are made up in our image. Because then what about all the people that go, well, but that's not God. He he's not looking to see if you did enough good deeds. He's wanting to know if you believed in his son or not. He doesn't, he doesn't, it's not about good works, it's about beliefs. Yeah. Okay, faith, yeah, right. Well, I think that's a whole nother topic. And I'm not sure how we went from silliness and fun back to serious again.

SPEAKER_03 25:14

This it's this show, this show you're gonna love this. The Ryan Lelf show. Chaz, are you with me?

SPEAKER_02 25:21

I'm here.

SPEAKER_03 25:22

Has no guardrails. Are you with me? Yeah. So if we want to go from squirm to sex, to worm, to eternal hell, we can. God. And I think we just did.

SPEAKER_00 25:38

This is the show, baby. The Ryan Damn Lelf show.

SPEAKER_03 25:42

We're gonna add the word damn in that. Make that on the make that comment on the logo. I need to insert the word damn. It's coming. It's coming. New renor a new iteration yet? I'm hoping by the time you leave today.

SPEAKER_00 25:54

Boom!

SPEAKER_03 25:55

But yeah, I've I turned in my my illiterate my version of the illiterate partner.

SPEAKER_00 26:02

Cannot come up with a type of logo or brand at all. Sucks. I'm not even sure why we hired him, or her, or them.

SPEAKER_03 26:10

He he she or she her. Yeah. I don't know. What is a squirm? I don't know. It's this thing that you made up in the middle of the podcast that we all make sounds to now whenever things get awkward.

SPEAKER_00 26:21

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 26:22

That's a squirm.

SPEAKER_00 26:23

Anyway, back to what we were saying. I think it I think it's the foundational piece is that probably the conversations that that that would maybe potentially be more beneficial is if you come from a place of thinking that you can somehow get this life wrong, and that if you get it wrong in one fashion or another, there is a massive eternal consequence. What does it feel like in your body? What is the underlying way in which you exist always wondering if you've done enough, if you've believed right, if you're getting it right? Like what kind of low-level chronic stress and anxiety do those people carry that they may even be oblivious to? Because I don't see how how can anybody say they're really existing in total inner peace and freedom when if I ask you, so how do you get it wrong? What what is it that you could believe incorrectly or do incorrectly or say incorrectly or live incorrectly that might send you to there? I mean, who's going to even be able to answer that?

SPEAKER_02 27:46

You said there's no guardrails, then that would effectively change everything, you know?

SPEAKER_00 27:54

But what if what you think you believe in is not something eternal and not in some afterlife or not in some realm, but is really more about optimization for the human life. Like, I feel like as soon as someone realizes that I don't believe in hell, or that I don't need to be tethered to the idea of a God in the sky or a certain religion, or to call myself a Christian, you know, like just by the way so many people act when they hear that, it's like, oh man, he just must be out here stealing and cheating and murdering people and doing this, that, and whatever. And it's like, so that is the life that you really actually want to be living. You're just not living it because you're afraid of going to hell if you did.

SPEAKER_03 28:46

Like, think about that. Yeah, that's like that's kind of what they're implying. Yeah, it's a very interesting thing. You know what I mean?

SPEAKER_00 28:51

And I'm over here going, uh, I feel completely free to do all of that stuff. I don't even believe in a fucking hell. I don't think it's gonna change one damn thing when I leave my body and go into any type of afterlife or the next realm, and yet none of that looks interesting.

SPEAKER_02 29:07

So I do have a follow-up to that. Do you feel like you have a moral compass? Because you just said the idea of, you know, being restricted by that framework, you're saying, oh, I'm not gonna steal, I'm not gonna kill, because of the idea that if I do, I'm going to hell. Would you say that there is no moral compass for you in that sense?

SPEAKER_00 29:30

My moral compass is you and I are one. If I hurt you, if I steal from you, if I harm you, if I'm violent towards you, I believe that the reason it feels so horrible and so nasty on the inside is because I just did it to myself.

SPEAKER_02 29:48

But Ryan, isn't there a part of you that actually believes that stealing is wrong? Because someone else's gain you basically profited off of just by way of just nah it's mine. Like if I took a Hershey bar out of the store, I would feel pretty bad that I stole a Hershey bar out of the store because I didn't pay for it. I'm supposed to pay for it. Right? That's the kind of moral compass I'm talking about.

SPEAKER_00 30:15

Okay, but you can take that in a lot of different directions. But do you believe that um the government taxing us the way they do is right?

SPEAKER_02 30:33

I don't think everything about the government is perfect, no.

SPEAKER_00 30:36

But Okay, so where's the line between if you don't think there are certain elements that are right and that you don't think you're being treated fairly, and if you found a loophole or a legal way in which you could lower that because of the fact that you don't feel like it's right, who gets to determine who's in the wrong or whose moral code are we gonna go by? Like I used to sit in circles where Christians would argue about whether or not you were supposed to pay um your tithe at church on the gross or the net. I've had Christians tell me What's the answer? There ain't no fucking answer. It's just do whatever the hell you think you want to do. Like, I mean, you're never gonna agree on that.

SPEAKER_02 31:19

But then you risk anarchy. If you if you could do exactly what you just said, that would risk anarchy. So is that what you're proposing or no?

SPEAKER_00 31:27

What is anarchy?

SPEAKER_02 31:28

Well, anarchy's destruction, essentially. You the the belief that Defiance. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 31:34

Are you awake? Have you looked outside? Do you pay attention to anything going on in the world? Isn't that already occurring? Like, isn't that kind of silly to be in denial that it's not already happening?

SPEAKER_02 31:47

I'm I'm confused at what you're getting at. Because I'm trying to get at the idea that each one of us has a moral compass, that there is a sense of right and wrong, even when we don't understand why, right?

SPEAKER_00 31:58

Yeah, I'm saying the same thing. Okay. But I'm just saying they're never going to be the same. Everybody's got their own moral code, whether they want to acknowledge that or not. Nobody's got the exact same one. They don't.

SPEAKER_02 32:10

I think people can bypass it. I think that's the difference we have. I think people can bypass the moral code.

SPEAKER_00 32:15

Okay, but make sure you include yourself. We all know it's not a they, it's not an us versus them, it's not those people over there, but I'm different. No, we're all fucking human.

SPEAKER_02 32:24

Right. But it is because of free will, and that's what I'm getting at is there is a sense of morality.

SPEAKER_00 32:29

Yeah, but I can't accept that it's just because of free will, because we talked about this on an earlier episode. Free will is based on the level of awareness that I have.

SPEAKER_02 32:37

I thought free will was just the idea that you have the ability to do whatever it is you want to do.

SPEAKER_00 32:41

But you don't. Because if you're sick, and the only file that comes up in your mind is that anytime I'm sick, I have to go to the doctor and then do whatever they prescribe.

SPEAKER_02 32:52

Okay, and this is going back to your story then.

SPEAKER_00 32:54

Right. I'm just saying, right? And it and you don't have very much free will if you're living under a belief system that says if I do this or that, then I've got literal hell to pay. That's not going to show up as the same free will as someone who recognizes that I don't have hell to pay in the afterlife, but is this the kind of world that I want to put forth energy into? Like, what if we all looked at it as everything we contribute creates the world we live in? So do I want to that is true. Do I want to live in a world of chaos? Do I want to live in a world of cheating, lying, stealing, um, you know, fighting? I don't.

SPEAKER_02 33:36

And that's what I'm saying. And that goes back to my point from another episode, which is that we do know there is a sense of morality because the world is in a place of chaos, whether we believe it or not.

SPEAKER_00 33:44

But don't you think it's a lot different to decide to not participate in something because we've determined that we don't believe it serves ourselves and the collective well versus out of, well, I really want to fuck that guy over, but I don't want to go to hell, so I'll just not do it.

SPEAKER_02 34:00

Can you say that one more time? I think I I the way it went over my head, I felt like was a little bit like I don't know, just it felt convoluted. I don't confuse that.

SPEAKER_00 34:07

I don't particularly care for the way in which I feel like people say they're motivated to live a certain way. Okay. I am motivated to live well and be in harmony with all people, not because of what I think would happen if I don't, but because of the benefit of the world I get to live in because I do.

SPEAKER_02 34:28

See, so many Christians believe that is, you know, the the framework that they believe out of is there is that's not their framework. But the but the framework that is there is if you don't believe Jesus is the Son of God.

SPEAKER_00 34:43

Which I don't.

SPEAKER_02 34:44

Well, and that you don't have to, but I'm saying I, in my perspective, and forgive me if this sounds a little bit like poke the bear, I in my perspective, I I think that is a little bit foolish. And I'm not saying you are a fool by saying that.

SPEAKER_03 34:59

I feel like I feel like you are that's okay.

SPEAKER_02 35:01

No, no, no. I like this. This is good. But here's but here's what I mean by that.

SPEAKER_00 35:04

If you say I'm going to to deny Jesus, in in my understanding of history Well, first of all, just because I say I don't believe it doesn't mean I'm in denial of it. I stand at the point of there's no way to prove it, so I don't need to either believe it or deny it. I can accept that. No, there's not.

SPEAKER_02 35:23

Have you seen the Shroud of Turin? That is a real artifact. That that's probably the most real artifact that we have to conclude. And this is what I mean by history.

SPEAKER_00 35:32

Okay, but what do you do about the people that believe that you know they have proof that the world's existed for a couple of billion years? It might have. And so maybe the story of Jesus, it might be real. He might have been a real person. Right. None of us know. So I don't believe in it, I don't deny it, I say I don't know. Well, so that's that seems like the most honest response to it is that I don't know.

SPEAKER_03 35:59

That a person with critical thinking skills, that's the most honest response from someone that can think on both sides of the table.

SPEAKER_00 36:06

And yet, what are always people then saying to me? Well, I'd rather believe and be wrong than not believe and then be in hell. I'm like, oh my God, wow, that's attractive. Man, I can't wait to sign up for that. So I I the most honest answer is I have no fucking clue if this happened or not. But because it's full of fear and terror of what might happen to me if I don't act like I do believe, even though deep down I know I don't really know, then I'm just gonna go along and play the game of pretense because if I'm brutally honest, I have to also say I don't know, but I'm gonna act like I do know only because of fear.

SPEAKER_02 36:50

So do you think a lot of Christians act out of fear more than they do?

SPEAKER_00 36:53

Every single one does. Well, because I don't.

SPEAKER_02 36:56

That's that's what I'm getting at is I don't operate from a place of fear. I operate from a place of you you talk about coming from, you know, being present. I do believe there is a huge aspect to being present and staying grounded in reality, right? We've talked about this before. But the the the place that I operate out of is not coming out of just simply the present. It's coming out of a place of hope, freedom, future, right? And from that framework, I see, you know, eternity, heaven. I don't try to super.

SPEAKER_03 37:24

I think that brings up an interesting point. What do you do when you have someone like Chaz who's just as convicted that he's on the right side of things, just as convicted as you are that it's possible that he's right, but it's also possible that you're right. And neither one of them are, you know, there might be heaven, there might be hell, but but he's just as convicted as you are.

SPEAKER_00 37:46

What do you do with that person? Because I wouldn't call my stance conviction. What would you call it? Honesty.

SPEAKER_02 37:55

I think that's the same thing.

SPEAKER_00 37:56

No. Conviction is I think I'm right. Honesty is I don't know. This is what I currently lean towards, but I really don't know.

SPEAKER_02 38:08

So you know what I think conviction is? It's not am I right. It is this is what should be right. And that's where I go back to this idea of a moral compass.

SPEAKER_00 38:18

This is what should be right. So now I don't know that that's convicted. Now now that's interesting because you're the one that's always afraid of saying that I am God, and yet that sounds like someone who thinks they're God if they know what should be in order or be in the right. Here's why that's interesting. Here's why that's interesting. So maybe, maybe what's actually being reflected back when all these people are triggered, and I say, we are God or I am God, is it's actually triggering the fact that they don't want to own the fact that that's actually the place they live from. They live from a place of I know what should be, I know how things should go, I know what you should be doing, I know how to live, I know what's right or wrong, and I get to judge. And I'm gonna keep saying that I'm not that because I know deep down at an unconscious level, that's exactly the place in which I live from.

SPEAKER_02 39:11

I want to go back to that word judge for a second. When we talk about judging as Christians, there's two aspects to it. There is a sense of judging what is right versus wrong by what I think it's Paul that tells us to uh to test what's good and what's evil by way of asking the Holy Spirit. So there's that level of judgment, and there's a second level of judgment, which judgment is not rendered unto man but unto God. Right? So what I think you're hearing when you say judgment is this kind of third tier, which is not really something that the Bible even, Jesus himself says should be a place. Let he with who is without sin cast the first stone. That's an impossible task. You're basically saying if you have no, if you are completely perfect and justified in everything you do, go ahead and judge someone else. How many of us Christians listen to that story?

SPEAKER_00 40:13

How about just any human on the planet? How many people on the planet know that story? From any framework. Well, they all know it. None of them live by it.

SPEAKER_02 40:21

Well, okay, hold on. I'm gonna I'm gonna I don't live by it. You don't live by it. Well, I'm gonna I'm gonna go back to what you said in the last episode. Not everyone knows that story because not everyone has heard the gospel.

SPEAKER_00 40:34

Remember how one episode or that that that's a that's a 28-year-old ignorant statement right there, because these stories are weaved into almost every religion, every spiritual framework, and every ideology across the globe. And what they did come from. Go go take a couple of years. They didn't all come from the Christian story, I assure you that. Sure about that? 100%. Yeah. Like you can throw that meme in there. You sure about that? You can go find all kinds of history and stories of things that basically sound like the Christian story that even claim to have existed prior to the Christian story.

SPEAKER_02 41:11

Yeah, but historically the timestamps there. So what do you say to history?

SPEAKER_00 41:16

You're you're pretty limited in your understanding of history, Chaz. Come on, be honest about it. Like it ain't like you've spent any real significant amount of time. Like you haven't dedicated years of your life.

SPEAKER_02 41:29

And that's where I'm getting my claims.

SPEAKER_00 41:31

Wow. So you're gonna stand on a hill based on a telephone game of what you perceived, you heard, and understood from others that you've not been able to verify firsthand.

SPEAKER_03 41:42

By others.

SPEAKER_00 41:42

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 41:44

Except it's not telephone at that point. If it's written down and recorded, it's not telephone, it's not hearsay at that point.

SPEAKER_03 41:49

But just because it's written down and recorded doesn't make it fact.

SPEAKER_02 41:51

If it's written down and recorded.

SPEAKER_03 41:53

I'm gonna, you know what? I'm gonna write this down. I'm gonna have you record it as I'm writing it down. I can I can spew any kind of bullshit that I want. That doesn't mean it's fact.

SPEAKER_02 42:03

So what would you say is fact then when it comes to Christianity?

SPEAKER_00 42:06

Okay, let me let me ask you this, Chaz. Let me ask you this. Okay.

SPEAKER_02 42:09

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 42:10

Because we have to be we have to be cognizant of like where's this conversation going? Who who wants to listen to too much of this at some point? If you if you could just and and do your best, because I know you like to analyze and think and qualify and justify and all the stuff, right? Which is fine. I get it, you know. But like, if the only reason you wouldn't entertain believing that there is no place of hell in the afterlife is because you're simply just afraid of making sure you don't go there. I mean, isn't that like the first major red flag that it really doesn't have a whole lot of ground to stand on it? Like, truth sets you free, not bound you up.

SPEAKER_02 43:00

I would agree.

SPEAKER_00 43:01

Okay. And what what are people really most afraid of? I think it comes back to more of inclusion in their family, social status, what they perceive will happen to them if they don't have that label, how they might be treated. I mean, all you have to do is go on my Facebook profile for the last couple of weeks. And to me, like these human beings out here are basically just showcasing exactly what my post is talking about. They're mean. I literally had a Christian guy that I know that I've seen in the pickleball world here in Tulsa. Pray for your demise. He literally said, I hope you move to Ecuador and don't have any peace.

SPEAKER_02 43:51

Yeah, that's not no, that's not the fruit of the spirit. But what seriously.

SPEAKER_03 43:55

But what he's suggesting is that's more common than not from the Christian base.

SPEAKER_00 44:00

Oh, yeah. Or I've got people coming on there like, I'm just sick and tired of reading this stuff for the last four or five years on your Facebook.

SPEAKER_02 44:09

Well, then they can't.

SPEAKER_00 44:10

I've never even met you. You know, I didn't even know you existed. Unfollow. What in the world keeps you interested? What's kept you curious?

SPEAKER_02 44:19

The same thing that's kept me curious, which is you're getting back to a lot of the same points that most Christians do. And by the way, I think a lot of Christians have to learn from what you have to say, which is why it's so intriguing that to your point, we can't really come into agreement. For some odd reason, we we can't come into agreement. And uh this is what I find really fascinating to because to me, I mean, again, I'm I'm not trying to be rude or anything, but to me, it's just so common knowledge. It just makes so much sense that it it it almost baffles me to think you would want to deny history, and that's that's the hard part of the Chaz.

SPEAKER_03 44:54

I can go, I'm gonna go to Thailand in two weeks, and those people there will say the same thing about Buddha.

SPEAKER_02 45:00

Yep. Are they gonna call Buddha the son of God?

SPEAKER_03 45:04

They stop in their tracks. There there are hundreds of millions of Buddha statues throughout that country and probably other countries as well, and they stop in their tracks anytime they pass by a Buddha to give it honor and respect.

SPEAKER_00 45:20

And that's great, except for You know what's a lot easier to believe in is that whether it's Jesus or Gandhi or Mother Teresa or Buddha or whatever they call the Hindu god. You know what's a lot easier to believe is that these were human beings that awakened and remembered their true essence and stood out amongst all humans as people that embodied the spirit, the the the Christ, the Christ consciousness, the energy.

SPEAKER_02 45:54

But again, we're going back to Christianity. If you say Christ consciousness, you're going back to the fact that Jesus was.

SPEAKER_03 45:58

He's just using it as an example.

SPEAKER_02 46:00

Okay, but you're saying Christ consciousness.

SPEAKER_03 46:01

But it doesn't matter, it's just an example.

SPEAKER_02 46:03

Yeah. Well, how does it not matter? That's what I'm saying.

SPEAKER_03 46:05

Because it's just a word, it's just a noise. It's like we talk about it.

SPEAKER_00 46:08

Okay, the Buddha consciousness, the Muhammad consciousness, like in other words, people that lived so differently and big than most human beings from observation are living, that they stood out, that they had tapped into a place in consciousness, an elevated place in their minds, like whatever you want to think about. That was revered. Yeah, absolutely. That like you could not match it, or you couldn't, you just it blew your mind.

SPEAKER_02 46:40

So let's go back to this example of Jesus, then. Why do so many people revere Jesus?

SPEAKER_00 46:45

Is it na naturally because deep down inside they want to awaken to their own Jesusness inside of them because they're they whether they can name it or or give language to it or whatever, like the reason that they feel like their life sucks so much is because they're not living like Jesus. Okay. I would agree with and I'm not talking about the external, I'm talking about from a place internally. I would agree with you. Jesus didn't live in fear, Jesus wasn't worried, Jesus wasn't thinking about other people, Jesus wasn't in self-doubt, Jesus didn't think he wasn't good enough, Jesus didn't uh concern himself with any of the bullshit that 99.9% of all of us are constantly living in in the container of our minds. So wouldn't it be that's what we really are revered about him.

SPEAKER_02 47:37

Well, so wouldn't it be natural then to say, like, why not try to live like him?

SPEAKER_00 47:42

But it's in the attempt to try to live like him that you never will. That's what people don't realize. Because in order to try to live like him, is to think that there is separation between who he understood he was and who you think you are, and that you've got to try to try to close the gap. It's not an effort, it's a realization. But he was accepting of the fact that it's not work to do it. It's a, oh my God, I thought I was this, and I now realize I'm actually that.

SPEAKER_02 48:17

Well, he's the son of God. He says he is the son of God, not I am God. He is, I mean, you could you could relate the Trinity.

SPEAKER_00 48:24

He's the ocean water that understands he's still the ocean water and that he never become a big thing.

SPEAKER_02 48:28

That's the difference, though, is not just he is God. It's that because through the Holy Spirit he would conceive that makes some difference.

SPEAKER_00 48:45

That's my goal. But that's the point. It's not a goal. Like a goal reinforces you're not that.

SPEAKER_02 48:50

Because we're not. And I think that's my framework.

SPEAKER_00 48:53

You'll never get it because you don't believe you are that. You just confirmed what the hell I'm fucking talking about on the whole damn show.

SPEAKER_02 49:00

Well, I I believe I'm not Jesus, is the point.

SPEAKER_00 49:03

So then you'll never, you never there's you'll just strive and strive and strive and reinforce I'm not him, I'm not good enough, I fall short, I'm a sinner, therefore.

SPEAKER_03 49:13

And you're never you're never gonna be able to live your life in the abundance and the truthfulness and the realness and the rawness that you potentially could because of all those parameters that you already have around yourself. If you want to be that, be that. Don't be that because church says so. And I just want to take a different direction here. Okay. Isn't it a shame that as I was growing up, if we didn't go to church on Sundays, we were frowned upon as a family.

SPEAKER_00 49:37

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 49:38

You didn't want to tell people that you you weren't going to church on Sunday. But I think it's far different now.

SPEAKER_00 49:42

I think I heard a guy say recently that left Mormonism that they now call Sunday their second Saturday.

SPEAKER_03 49:48

Love that. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 49:49

Yeah. Anyway, sorry, psycho.

SPEAKER_03 49:51

But no, I mean, I but I just think I I just think that I think there are more people kind of coming to the reality of there is a perceived tag about being labeled Christian, going to church, having to do good things. In reality, and Chaz, I hope you buy into this. I have a heart and a passion. Like I want to help people in the most genuine, genuine of ways. I want to, like, in the most organic, real ways, I have a heart to help people. Whether they have a flat tire on the side of the road, whether I see someone eating by themselves at a diner early on a Wednesday morning, uh, whether I see someone walking down the street that looks like they're just struggling and needs some help to cross the street. I've I have always for some reason had this passion just to get out and help. There was a couple weeks ago I was a witness to a car crash, two people collided. I hell I ran over to the side of the car and I pulled this lady out, and her ankle was completely snapped. Like this was no longer straight, it was snapped into a perpendicular uh angle. That's true. And and and so, but but but I have this, I have this drive to just assist and help when I can. And I think that was inherently born within me for some reason because I've always had it, and I don't label it as being Christian.

SPEAKER_02 51:17

But it is Christ-likeness, and that's what many Christians are according to your perception.

SPEAKER_00 51:21

That's not anything just my perception. No, no, it's not fucking anything.

SPEAKER_02 51:25

What do you mean it's not anything?

SPEAKER_00 51:26

It's the perception of- only whatever if you want to call it that, then own that for you, but that you don't get to throw that on everybody else. Like a spoon is not a fucking spoon. They're making it. That's just what we've all basically agreed to call it. But if they don't call it a spoon in Japan, it's still the same damn object, but it's not a fucking spoon to them. It's chopstick. No, I'm just saying.

SPEAKER_02 51:51

That's kind of like an eclipse somewhere.

SPEAKER_03 51:54

Sorry, I try to say it in the squirm thing. I don't remember what it is.

SPEAKER_00 51:58

But he's not extended perfect, thank you. We we call something something, and then we almost demand, not almost, we demand that everybody else see it the same way.

SPEAKER_02 52:08

It's like, I don't demand, I just try to influence everyone.

SPEAKER_00 52:11

I mean, you do demand.

SPEAKER_03 52:12

I described it, and you're like, well, that absolutely is perfect.

SPEAKER_00 52:15

And I'm like, no, I don't see it that way. And you're like, no, no, no, that's what it is. No, that's what it is to you. And to millions of people. And billions.

SPEAKER_03 52:22

And to billions of people, it's not.

SPEAKER_00 52:24

Yeah. So that's the difference, is you accidentally assume that when I use language or words, that I'm doing the same thing that you're doing to everyone, and I'm not.

SPEAKER_02 52:34

Because that came out of the precept of Christianity.

SPEAKER_03 52:36

And Chess, would you would you be would you be upset if I told you I would, I, I would actually, and I'm I don't, I'm not easily offended. Yeah. Um, but I don't like being labeled Christian, or I don't like my essence being labeled Christ-like, because I don't like being associated with the tag or the reality of my perception of how Christians actually treat other people that aren't at their level intellectually.

SPEAKER_02 53:02

This is where many Christians need to flip the script. And I think that's been the call for, I mean, I'm speaking for a lot of us here when I say this. I think that's been the call for us is that because of how the I ran away from you people because of that. Here's the thing: I hate that for you.

SPEAKER_03 53:16

I do know I do. It made me a better version of myself.

SPEAKER_00 53:20

But here's the projecting his feelings into other beings.

SPEAKER_02 53:25

I mean, I'm just speaking from what I understand. He does it effortlessly.

SPEAKER_00 53:29

He was it. He does.

SPEAKER_03 53:30

He's very good at this. And if you're not, and if you're not careful, he could persuade, and this is, I think, really the Christian playbook. You have someone convicted like him, yep, passionate, lovable, likable guy. Yep. Communicates and articulates fairly good, yep, debates well. Yep. But it's it he could almost be a preacher to a church. Yeah, for sure. Without a doubt. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 53:54

That's high praise.

SPEAKER_03 53:56

It is. And listen, one of the best men, best men I know. It's a pretty lucrative business, too. Very lucrative, especially if you're not. I don't want to make it a business. Especially if you if you tithe gross, not net.

SPEAKER_00 54:06

Yeah. True. Absolutely. Yeah. And if you've got any marketing skills, run ads on social media.

SPEAKER_03 54:12

Run ad on social media. Create a big concert during Christmas.

SPEAKER_00 54:15

Yeah. Like, or have like a section during the summer where it's called at the movies. And you make people feel like you're just going to a movie and skip free popcorn. Yeah. Donuts and coffee on the mornings. So I'm gonna uh have a lot of different times, like Saturday nights that make it easier for people.

SPEAKER_03 54:29

Oh, but I thought church was only on Sundays. Uh, you know, I mean But if there's more money to be made, it can be Saturday nights.

SPEAKER_00 54:35

Just just disguise it. Don't actually like say it that way, you know. Got it.

SPEAKER_02 54:38

So the way that you guys are describing church is the typical American mainstream way, like the like the most stereotypical way of doing church, which is at the movies by life church. Thank you for calling it out.

SPEAKER_00 54:50

And listen, I've I've But I'm like I'm not like calling it out. Like, oh, how about all the little churches that have the same seven people still coming and the pastor doesn't even have any money? And yet, because they can split hairs on every fucking little interpretation, they can't have community or merge with another group of people where it could be more fruitful because they stand on the fact that their exact way of seeing it is more accurate and more right, and so therefore they'll just keep meeting as their little seven-person group that isn't really working on a practical level or common sense level.

SPEAKER_03 55:26

Or really affecting any positive changes.

SPEAKER_00 55:28

So I mean, we can go to both extremes. Like the the the you know what? Here's the reality, in my opinion. I want to make sure that's clear. It's my opinion. Oh, I got you. You know what's beautiful about church is gathering together.

SPEAKER_03 55:42

Communion.

SPEAKER_00 55:44

Like if you remove the need to be right, if you remove that our denomination and our interpretation is more accurate than yours, if you remove the bickering, and if you remove the emotional manipulation, yeah, and if you remove all of the financial nonsense that goes on in there, and you just get back to what is at the root and the beauty of it. It's coming together, it's the community aspect, it's the gathering in one place at one time, it's the common threshold that we're all human. We were all human, by the way, before we could call ourselves Christian. We were all human before we could call ourselves American. We were all human before we could call ourselves Republican. We were all human before we could call ourselves anything. What if we got back to the true essence? Huh. Our true essence might lead us to the true essence. What if it became again about community and gathering and sharing and commonality and we set down all that other stuff that we cook up. All the guardrails that create defense, that create war, that create arguing, that create separation, that create people splitting, that create animosity, that create I don't want to see you over the holidays, that create I don't want to do business with you, that create I don't want to play pickleball with you. On and on and on and on. Like this guy that told me he didn't want me to have peace in Ecuador, he paid me to teach him about pickleball.

SPEAKER_03 57:16

Oh, did he really?

SPEAKER_00 57:17

Like a month or two ago. And then he wrote that on my Facebook the other day.

SPEAKER_03 57:21

Oh, I didn't know that. Yeah. Yeah. Isn't that and I think that and I think that tells a really giant big story is I think I love my people that that I'm I have relationships that go to church. Like I I love them for who they are and what they stand for. And if they want to go to church every Sunday and they want to tithe, I that's cool. That doesn't affect me.

SPEAKER_00 57:42

And what's going on inside of a human being to even be at a place that you would say that to another person?

SPEAKER_03 57:48

Well, and that's what I was gonna say.

SPEAKER_00 57:49

It's like, but and how does that simultaneously work with your message of but God loves you, Jesus loves you. I mean, I don't, but but but God does. I mean, I don't, but Jesus does.

SPEAKER_03 57:59

And I follow God, so Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 58:01

And I mean, I speak on their behalf. Really? So which half is it that I should be listening to right now? Is that God loves me or that God doesn't want me to have peace? I'm kind of confused. It's kind of a difficult God to believe in. See, guys like that are setting the bar really.

SPEAKER_03 58:18

But it's but listen, Chaz, it's way too it's way too much. It's more the norm than not.

SPEAKER_00 58:24

But but Chaz isn't seeing that he does the same thing, but he just doesn't believe he does the same thing. He may not say, I hope you don't have peace right when you live in Ecuador, but he deep down believes that I'm going to hell. But he also tells me that God loves me. And he's got such a fucked up idea of what God's love is that he thinks trying to follow some perfect list and getting it right or believing a certain way is somehow love.

SPEAKER_03 58:53

You buy into that, Chaz?

SPEAKER_02 58:55

Well, you want to know yes or no? No, no, I don't really buy into that.

unknown 58:59

Okay.

SPEAKER_03 58:59

That's fair.

SPEAKER_00 59:00

So are you gonna uh if when you and Courtney have kids, if they don't follow your belief and your rules and whatever, are you gonna dam them to some eternal place?

SPEAKER_02 59:09

No, I'm still gonna welcome them with loving arms.

SPEAKER_00 59:12

Oh, so you're gonna be different than the God you believe in.

SPEAKER_02 59:16

No. I'm I'm I'm gonna do the same that he's done for me.

SPEAKER_00 59:19

No, no, no, no, it's it doesn't work that way, buddy. Sorry. But you're out. Like you either have to send your kids to hell if they don't align, or then you don't actually believe in hell.

SPEAKER_02 59:30

Here's how I relate this. You've you've heard this before. And I I know both of you probably heard this, and many viewers and listeners probably have heard this.

SPEAKER_03 59:38

This has to be the final story. We gotta wrap it up.

SPEAKER_02 59:40

It'll be the final story. So if you if you were to say, Hey Ryan, why don't you come on to my house? You're welcome anytime. And you said, Oh, that's awesome. But then you just decided to treat my house any way that you wanted, do you think I would want to welcome you back? Yes or no?

SPEAKER_00 1:00:02

That's different than giving me a chance to do it. No, no, no, no, no, yes or no. No, no, no, no, no. Very different. No, no, no. That's different than telling me that that if I do something to your house, you're gonna give me eternal torment and consequence. It's not the same. I know, but it's not the same to say, hey man, um I I can't keep having you over to my house if you're gonna destroy it. Like, that's not the same as you destroyed it, and so now let me tell you what your fucking consequence is. He's reframing the stories with manipulation changes. 100%.

SPEAKER_03 1:00:33

Guys, let me ask you this. If you're on your way home tonight and five miles down from your house, you get a flat tire on the side of the road, busy highway, highway 169, and there's two there's four people passing you. One of them is me, one of them is Ryan, and the two other people are people that you go to church with. And you had to put you had to spend a thousand dollars on who was gonna stop, where would you put your money to help you?

SPEAKER_02 1:00:55

I would say probably the people from my church, likely.

SPEAKER_03 1:00:58

Interesting.

SPEAKER_02 1:00:59

Seriously. The the I'm serious, the community that I have, if I were driving by the highway, and I've had this happen before. Not like that I've gotten in an accident. I've had people from my church. Like I was at a stoplight one time, and some, you know, some I don't know that you teed him up very well, Barlow.

SPEAKER_00 1:01:12

I I failed on that one. Yeah, because like you put him in a tough spot. Like course he's gonna say. Well, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no. What I'm saying is let's ask him a second follow-up question. Fair enough. I have no issue. In fact, I'm actually glad that he picked the church members because he spends a lot of time there. And that that truly, like, I love that. Like, if he feels that they genuinely are those kind of people, because again, I'm not against framework, I'm not against anything. So if if where he's pouring his life and his energy and his time and maybe even his money, if he feels like that, or whatever. The question is, Chaz, if you didn't have to bet, let's remove those two people, same scenario, and it's just me that passes by. Do you think I'm stopping? Sure. See, that's what I that's why I think you didn't set it up perfectly. He he feels the same way about me and you as he does them. And I think that's beautiful. And that's because I'm not I'm not asking him to not feel that way. In fact, I'd want him to.

SPEAKER_02 1:02:06

So anyway, go my my whole encouragement with being here on this show is to set an example of that. Because not you're right, Ryan, not many people do. And that's that's really unfortunate because given the framework, they are coming out of a place of, oh, you are wrong. How dare you? I mean, Barla, you ask me all the time, am I triggered? No, I'm fascinated. You know why? Because fascination leads to asking the questions why do you believe what you believe?

SPEAKER_00 1:02:30

But I think help me understand. I think there's always way more to the story. So now Chaz is on the side of the road, he needs help, I'm coming by, but I had just gotten a call that my oldest son may have just been killed in a car wreck. You need to deal with him with his head in there. You need to deal with him. So, what I'm saying is, like, how often do we make assumptions? Do we judge a situation? Do we determine what we think is what we know about a human being, and yet we didn't have the whole story. We didn't have the whole context. And I want to bring this back as we wrap up this episode. There's not a single subject matter that we ever have the entire context to. The full story. Because we weren't there. And we're not privy to it. And the fact that we tell ourselves the story that somehow that doesn't matter is a complete denial to the awakening and the freedom that I believe when we transcend our own ego and our own misidentification with the form of who we think we are as a human being, that's what awaits us in the silence. That's what is on the other side of being so attached. Listen, if I thought that I could show up to a church and be in a community of people that I could be myself in, that I could not walk on eggshells around, that would just be open to questioning and curiosity and all of the different ways in which I would want to show up as a human being. I mean, I'd love that. I just don't really think that actually exists. Not in the realm of the church. There might be other community groups that are set up differently, but I don't think there's a church in Tulsa, Oklahoma, that can handle my questions. I don't think there's a group of people that call themselves Christians that would be able to freely allow myself to bring up my concerns, my apprehension, my ways of thinking without telling me that I'm going to hell and I'm wrong, which is not the same as I'm not doing anything to their house. And if I was, of course they should have a boundary. There's a difference in having a boundary and telling someone that something horrible and evil is now gonna happen to them because you don't agree with what they did or what they believe in. Massive difference.

SPEAKER_03 1:05:04

And that'll conclude the Ryan Lough show.