SPEAKER_01 0:09

The Coaching for Life Podcast with Monty Williams and Will Davis.

SPEAKER_00 0:17

Welcome back to the Coaching for Life Podcast with Monty Williams and Will Davis, a conversation that we pray encourages you to pursue the Christ Center Life. And it's always a privilege to spend some time with my good friend and co-host Monty Williams. And today, Monty, before we get into our conversation, I wanted to get your thoughts on the NBA Finals. And you coached the Phoenix Suns in the 2021 finals against the Milwaukee Bucks not that long ago. So you know kind of what the coaches and and the players on the Spurs and the Knicks are are going through right now as we head into game four tonight in New York. And the media often talks about pressure. And the pressure changes. It might be on one team and now it seems to have shifted to the other team. So as a head coach, how do you navigate and manage the perceived pressure and the real pressure? Not only with your your coaching staff, but also with your players. How do you try and shut out all of the external noise and instead focus on the task at hand, winning the next game?

SPEAKER_02 1:45

It was it was a moving target for me, if I'm being as uh honest as I can remember about that time. Um I don't think I handled it perfectly, not even well, because there's times where your mind can go places that it doesn't need to go. And no matter how many times I prayed, how many times I talked to um a mentor on the phone, um you you still forecasted things that you didn't need to forecast. Um the things that helped me um was praying. Um was my my my morning uh devo time. Uh I can remember it vividly um back at home and on the road. That was just my routine anyway. It was when I allowed um perceived circumstances or what I thought somebody was thinking about a loss or a decision that bothered me. That created more pressure. The game wasn't hard for me because as a coach, you know that you have to make decisions well, you try to, but it's typically going to come down to how the players execute and and are they doing their best and can you help them in the moments where they need help? The pressure came when I got outside of that thinking. Right. You know, it's you know, what is, you know, this and and that was for me, was it was cool because I wasn't on social media, so I didn't hear it from that perspective. Now I would hear from the coaches when because they they were on social media. So I I don't know if you for me anyway, if I if if I handled it well or not, I know I think I lost like four or five pounds. Um I remember it pretty clearly. Um after the finals, I I was like a little thinner. Um and I had a a a good friend of mine, Doc Rivers, uh, call me during the finals and he just said, Look, my pressure is a privilege. And it is in those moments. That kind of pressure is a privilege. Um the pressure to pay the bills when you're just working as hard as you can, that that's not a privilege. That's that's a bit different. And so I think we always have to identify what is um, you know, a privilege and an honor and and and what's like real, real life, you know, pressure. You know, pressure is being a nurse or a doctor and taking care of kids at at a children's hospital or at St. Jew. That's pressure. Playing in the in in the finals um can be pressurized, but that that that pressure is nothing like, you know, the people at the San Antonio food bank who are trying to feed so many families who are struggling to put food on the table. That's pressure. Right. And so I I think God has given me somewhat of a perspective on how to differentiate like what's real pressure and what's pressure that I've invited into my life. And I totally invited that into my life to to be in the MBA and and coach and play.

SPEAKER_00 5:08

Yeah, that's what you've prepared for. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 5:11

For sure.

SPEAKER_00 5:12

That's why you're in it. And it's it's going to be interesting to see kind of what happens tonight. Can the Spurs tie up the series or can New York take that commanding three-to-one lead? Yeah. And every finals has its own unique storylines, and so it's going to be fun to see how this series shakes out. Well, we're going to take a hard right turn now and talk a little bit about suffering. It's something that we all have in common, suffering, and everyone has their own unique journey of suffering. And often what sets us apart is how we handle the suffering, and that's why we're calling this episode Seeing Christ in the suffering. Because that's really the key, keeping our eyes on Christ and His Word in the midst of the suffering. And a scripture we want to start with today is from the Old Testament book of Lamentations.

SPEAKER_02 6:09

It's a scripture that you actually hit me with that allowed for me to kind of dive into. I want to read it from the NASB. It says, Remember my misery and my homelessness, the wormwood and bitterness. Like that, that's a tough place. My soul certainly remembers and in and is bent over within me. I recall this to mind, to my mind, therefore I wait. The Lord acts of mercy indeed do not end, for his compassions do not fail. They are new every morning. Great is your faithfulness. The Lord is my portion, says my soul, therefore I wait for him. The Lord is good to those who await him, to the person who seeks him. It is good that he waits silently for the salvation of the Lord. And these verses are such a reminder of the person who's going through it, but it's also and and this is where our um affection, attention should be, it's a reminder of his goodness. Um we live in a world where uh bad things happen. Yes. And um we also live in a world where it's it's almost become a social construct to blame God.

SPEAKER_03 7:26

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 7:27

Um, the the questions are if God were good, why is this happening? Um, why do good people suffer? Um, why do we have the poor and why why are injustices happening to people? And and that's a you know, a bit of a slope in terms of identifying people as good. Because we we we can't pick and choose what scriptures we want to like hang on to, because Jeremiah 17, 9 is pretty clear about the heart of man and the wickedness of man. Um and and throughout the scriptures we see uh this woven love that holds it all together that comes from God, that He is faithful, that He is loving, that He is kind, and a clear understanding from the Scriptures is that we live in a broken uh world. And so I uh the scripture that stuck out to me, the words that stuck out to me, it says, Surely my soul remembers and is bowed down within me, this I recall to my mind. But then it says, Therefore I have hope. The Lord's loving kindness indeed never cease, for his compassions never fail. It didn't say the world. Yeah. It didn't say my money could bail me out of this, my status could bail me. It talks about the Lord's love in the midst of um my soul, my mind remembering this really tough time. So I think this verse is pretty uh foundational in terms of you know how to deal with suffering, not to minimize what people go through. I think it's important that we um establish that. We we never want to minimize um, as you and I have been through some tough times, we kind of know um how our suffering and our tough times can be minimized, especially with people with good intention intentions who just throw scripture at you and tell you just trust God, you know, you better believe. And it's like, well, I'm trying, you know. And and this this verse is one that reminds us that God is loving, he is sovereign, and he is holy. And in that we see a power that's bigger than our finite minds can comprehend. And in that um, we see a God that we can trust because he is holy, because he is sovereign, um, because he is loving in a way that we can understand, he is one that we can trust. If he wasn't any of those things in the way that he is, then we could question it. But we know that he is based on our history with him and what his word says and how the Spirit draws us back to these particular verses when we're going through a tough time.

SPEAKER_00 10:19

Yes. Seeing God for who he is, um, that can be so helpful. And I will add to that. God is also right there with us in in the midst of the suffering, and he even seems closer the greater the pain and the greater the hurt. And I'm sure you sense that in these last 10 years, you know, since Ingrid's homegoing. And Kara and I found that to be true uh 26 years ago when her older brother Clay, who was also my closest friend, went to be with the Lord on April 8, 2000, after an Osprey helicopter training accident in Arizona while serving with the Marine Corps. And we had just been married for three months, and and suddenly our world was turned upside down because of this tragedy. And now, 26 years later, when we think back to those first moments when we received the call about that accident, you you remember bits and and pieces of those first days with family and friends as we as we grieve this wonderfully gifted Christian young man that we still miss every day, but a lot of it was a blur. You know, you're just trying to make it another day, you're in survival mode. And there are those days when when the grief seems almost too much to bear. I mean, the the suffering feels like a weight on your chest and and you can't breathe. And and I was a first-year student at Dallas Seminary at the time, and I remember that it was a year later during my second year, and I was walking on campus. It was a a beautiful spring day when I finally felt like the weight was starting to lift a little. You're never quite the same, you never move on, but you move forward. The joy of the Lord is my strength, Nehemiah 810, on those days when you don't feel like you have the strength to carry on. And I know you've shared on a previous pod that in the aftermath of Ingrid's homegoing, you felt like you wanted to check out, you wanted to go off the grid and take the kids to Idaho or or Wyoming. But as you felt that urge to escape from it all, God was speaking to you. Yeah. And God was very kind as he walked through that valley with you all, and and you realized that okay, the best thing uh at the time was to move to San Antonio back to be with some some some family. And and you talked about how you know the Lord brought close friends uh that that helped you during that time, but that may not be how most people typically handle suffering.

SPEAKER_02 13:18

Yeah, I think it's it's an interesting um deal, time, um, season when when the unspeakable, the tough, tough phone call, the diagnosis, the thing that we probably fear the most in our lives happens, um we struggle to trust God in those moments. You know, I don't think we admit that enough. I think everybody wants to come off like we have this perfect faith. And I'm like, well, you know, the more I get into the word and the more I see the Psalms, the more I I listen to people like David, uh faithful people in the scriptures, you see a level of anxiety, depression stuff when they're going through it. And um there's moments where you you might even get angry with God, you may blame God. Um I I can vividly remember um feeling a tangible grief in my life. Um this this will sound strange, but I remember um living in San Antonio after we settled here, I had a bit of a routine with the kids and taking them to school and going to meetings and going to doctor's appointments and doing all this stuff I had never done. I I I relied on my routine more than I relied on God. I can I can say that with uh but he was carrying me through it. But I remember waking up every day with a tangible grief. I couldn't see it, but I felt it in front of my eyes for a long time. Um it was about a year and a half into it where I felt like it lifted.

SPEAKER_03 15:00

Yes.

SPEAKER_02 15:00

Um, where God had kind of brought me through it, but it it was tangible. And I I did a a class called uh grief share um here in town. It's a Christian-based counseling counseling class where you go with other people who've been through tough stuff, and Janice Young was the the leader of that class, and she told me something that I I had not even considered. She said, Monty, you have to give yourself a break. You you're dealing with PTSD. And I was like, What? You know, I had no idea. I thought PTSD was for people who had gone to war and dealt with like violent stuff in combat. And she said, No, no, you're you're dealing with something. Your brain has gone through some things and it it just needs time to heal, and God will bring you through it. And it taught me, you know, as I dove into it even more that we are to expect suffering in in this life. Um The Bible is pretty clear in 2 Timothy 3.12, indeed, all who desire to live godly in Christ Jesus will be persecuted. Um Philippians 1.29 says, For to you it it has been granted for Christ's sake not only to believe in him, but also to suffer on his behalf. And I I think that that brings up, you know, probably another pod in terms of, you know, as we walk this thing out with the Lord, um the misconceptions of our faith. Yeah. Um many people may come to know the Lord and and think it's gonna be a lottery ticket to bliss and nirvana. Um there may, and and more than likely, there's going to be many, many blessings that go with this. Sometimes we don't recognize them. The greatest blessing is relationship with God, and one day we're gonna be in heaven. Yeah. But when you read the scriptures, um it's pretty clear that we are uh to expect suffering um in this world. And and and that that's something that um we just don't hear taught enough. Um we don't hear that. We I think there's this I wouldn't say movement, but I I think we both have seen enough in in the church and in different ministries. Um unfortunately, we're where it's not being taught enough that we are to expect it. And I think people struggle when it's not taught, especially when they're going through it. Yeah. Because then they feel like they're isolated and they think it's just me and it's not a part of my journey. That that's a tough place to be.

SPEAKER_00 17:37

Yeah. We read in 1 Peter 4 12, do not be surprised at the fiery trial when it comes upon you to test you as though something strange were happening to you, but rejoice in so far as you share Christ's sufferings, that you may also rejoice and be glad when his glory is revealed. So we identify with Christ when we suffer, and we can take encouragement when we look to the examples of men and women in the Scripture who face suffering. I like how Chuck Swindahl talked about the lessons that Job teaches us. And number one is what we've already said: don't be surprised. Trials don't announce themselves. And then two, don't be fooled. Be careful with the counsel that we receive from others. Even Mrs. Job gave her husband some bad advice, and so did his three friends. So make sure that the counsel we receive aligns with the scripture. Yeah. You have something like grief share, like you mentioned. The word is to be our guide and our anchor. And then number three, don't be disillusioned. Our God is sovereign. His blessings, as you just mentioned, far outnumber the tests. He's preparing us, he's sanctifying us so that on that day that we do stand before him, we will be more like him because of the testing that we have endured. And these tests are all a part of the refining process that God wants to accomplish in our lives. And that's why we must be daily in the word, daily in prayer. Job reminds us that readiness isn't built in that moment of crisis, but rather in the quiet, ordinary days before it arrives. Job never blamed God. He famously declared in Job 19, 25, For I know that my Redeemer lives. Joseph is another character that we have referenced that provides us an example of how to face suffering.

SPEAKER_02 19:49

Yeah, he's he's a dude that embodied trust in God despite going through unreal stuff, suffering and loss. Um he was sold into slavery by his brothers, he's thrown into prison unjustly. He's he was separated from his family. Um he endured these particular circumstances with, and I say with um with emphasis, a a dependency on God for strength. Um I think it's also important to point out, like, Joseph wasn't a perfect man. Yes. You know, he he should he showed, as we all do, uh showed some immaturity early in his life. Um, but we see later on um in the life of Joseph, um in Hebrews 11, 22, in a New Testament account, the Bible says by faith Joseph, when he was dying, made mention of the exodus of the sons of Israel and gave orders concerning his bones. Like he he knew that God had a plan for it all, um, to use him in what he allowed, not caused, to be a benefit to his family and to the nation of Israel, God's chosen people. And in the end, you know, Joseph learned that his suffering was a part of God's plan to bring about a greater good. Um, in Genesis 50, 20, the Bible says, You intended it to harm me, he told his brothers, but God intended it all for good. He brought me to this position so I could save the lives of many people. And I don't think he said I in a arrogant or selfish way. I think he just said I because it was him. Um God did it all. And and I there's so many examples that you and I could like point to in our own lives where we just thought, like, you know, I've I've I've I've had this phrase, when something pops up, I'm like, God, what is this? You know. I did not see this coming. I I remember um I was in Denver back in the the ear the late nineties, and um I I was in a situation, the the circumstances and and what was going on at the time didn't matter. It was the first time I got cut at anything.

unknown 22:08

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 22:09

And I had no idea what was going on. We had just had um Lael, my oldest child, um, and we had lost, had just lost a baby um here in San Antonio before I left for Denver. And then I go there and I get cut. And I'm just like, man, like what is up? Well, God was working it out and teaching me during that time, and I ended up signing with Orlando. I got to play for Doc Rivers, which resurrected my career. I learned so much about the business, about um trusting the Lord in in a shallow way, most likely. And God was doing stuff that I just didn't see. And then I signed with Philadelphia after Orlando, and I got a chance to be around Coach Larry Brown. Uh to this day, is probably the most brilliant basketball mind I've ever been around. Now, when you're going through it with him, you don't think he's that brilliant. You think he's you think he's nuts. Um, but he he became a really good friend. Uh I still text with him uh to this day. I text him last week actually and told him I was using a drill called called Explosion. And he he texted me back. He said, Matt, that just made my day. Um and I just said, Coach, I love you, and uh just kind of kept it moving. Uh another situation that happened to me uh when I played for Coach Brown, um, it was the first time in my career that I was gonna be a starter from the beginning of the season. Uh in the NBA, I don't think I ever started the season as the starter. I ended up becoming the starter or getting starting moments after the season progressed and I earned it, or the coach made a decision. Um, well, I was with Coach Brown in Philly and I was the starter. And the next thing you know, I tore my knee up pretty bad, um, tried to rehab it for two years. Turns out I should have sat out and had microfracture surgery. I didn't even know it. Um and in the midst of all of that, um, when I was in Birmingham talking to the doctors, I called Ingrid and told her what was going on. And they said, it looks like your career might be over. And I made one more phone call while I was there. I just didn't know what to do. I called Pop and just told him what was going on, and he says, Well, you know, what are you gonna do? I said, I like I don't know. I I felt like the dog on the on the Jetsons, yeah. I was like Astro. I was like, I was like, I don't know. I was just I was in a really tough spot. And he said, Well, you live here anyway in the offseason. If you want, you know, you can come by the gym and and you know, just be with us. And I was like, okay, pop. And that was the beginning of my coaching career. Um, and so in the midst of all of this stuff that was happening, God didn't do it, but he was in it. Yeah. And he was certainly teaching me another step of trust that I had to put in my bag, if you will. I had to put it in my my mental spiritual Rolodex and and and refer to it because you tend to think like that's gonna be it, and then life stuff, your own decisions continues to bring stuff that causes you to struggle. And so I what I learned and and what Joseph learned and knew is in it all, God intended it for good, and he just works it out in a way that I didn't understand. And his goal, as you alluded to, um, is a Romans 828-829 thing. His goal is to work it out for good, but his his main goal is to conform us into the image of his son. And that process um is an all-encompassing encompassing life journey that we just have to trust, surrender, and allow him to work out.

SPEAKER_00 26:08

Yeah, that's a great testimony. I mean, you couldn't see what God was doing at the time. No. But he used men like Doc Rivers and Larry Brown and Pop. And you realize, okay, God, you're working in all of this and you intend all of this for good. I like how Charles Stanley wrote that the dark moments of our lives will last only so long as is necessary for God to accomplish his purposes in us. We may not see what that purpose is, this side of heaven, but we can trust and rest in God's faithfulness for today and for tomorrow. And as we approach July 4th, you know, I can't help but think about those families who lost so much a year ago, July 4th, 2025, as 25 young campers and two counselors were swept away by the flooding at Camp Mystic, just 82 miles from here. And as I was listening recently to some of the parents share about their suffering, one father said something that stuck with me. He said that this suffering wasn't going to define them as a family. Yes, they still hurt deeply. We can't imagine what they have gone through this last year. They still live in the suffering, you never quite move on. But you move forward. And many have started nonprofits to keep the memories of their daughters alive and to help other families and various important causes. And I also recently heard Pastor Matt Chandler talk about how the Christian life is more like a tree than it is a light switch. The tree is still a tree, even though you go through droughts and dry spells and storms and barren seasons when it doesn't seem like there's any fruit or green on the tree, but you're still a tree. You're still a child of God with roots that are deeply planted in Christ and in his word. The Christian life is not like a light switch that you can just flip on whenever you just want to be done with something and get over this trial as quickly as possible. And that leads me to a word of application. You know, don't let anyone tell you how it is that your unique journey of suffering should go and how long it should last. And here's that quick fix formula to move on. No, God has you where he has you for as long as he has you for a purpose, and we can be still, we can rest in his promises, and worship him in the waiting and know that his compassions never fail, as we talked about from Lamentations 3. They are new every morning. Great is his faithfulness. So as we wrap things up, Mani, what are some other words of application? What are some other words of encouragement that we can give to the listener on this topic of seeing Christ and the suffering?

SPEAKER_02 29:24

Yeah, I uh one, I'd I'd love to just share how God has used this pod in my life. Like I I've I've gone through some things, yeah. Um, things that I wouldn't wish on anyone in terms of, you know, life changes, things that I didn't see coming. I've also made decisions that have caused some things that I I didn't see coming. Um when we got into this, um I I think for me I have to establish the fact with our listeners that I am not a theologian. Um I don't have uh the credentials of one. But that doesn't mean um I shouldn't study, I shouldn't dig in to find out as much as I can about the Lord and about these topics that you and I pray about that we should um discuss in in in terms of this particular one. I I I wanted to make sure that I was grounded in the word. And one of the compliments um to my study time, I I've I have a number of commentaries at home. I found myself collecting too many of them. Um I I'm in the Wearsby one right now. Um Pastor B gave me one. I don't know the the name. They're usually two-volume, Old Testament, New Testament. But another compliment um to my study has been this uh Holman illustrated Bible dictionary. And it was pretty interesting when I looked at uh the definitions from a biblical perspective on suffering. Yeah. Um it talks about the causes and talks about um sometimes God uses it when we're in a sinful state and we need to, you know, check ourselves. Um nonetheless, um anyone who's listening, um, take the time um to get in the word and study. Take the time to um grab a commentary and look at the people that have gone through tough stuff. It it not only will build your knowledge base, but we we we don't want to just gain information. I think Steve Ramser says it best. This is not about uh information, it's about formation. Yes. And we we are to continue to be formed and conformed into the image of um our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ. And my encouragement is someone who did not graduate from Dallas Theological, who a place that I have so much respect for because so many people there have impacted my life and my family's life. But just because we didn't graduate from seminary doesn't mean um we are to uh not get in the word and dig in and and and study. And I and I I believe, I know that God does something with that by his spirit, where he encourages us, he directs us, and he allows us to um become more like his son and and and get closer to him in these particular studies. And I think, real quickly, I think it's really important that we don't do it again just to gain information. Yeah. It is to grow closer um to our Lord, our Father, uh Yahweh. It's it's an opportunity, it's a privilege to grow in that relationship, but it's also um a way for him to grow us as he continues to process us into what we are to be, which is more like his son.

SPEAKER_00 32:56

Yeah. No, suffering again is not something that we pray for, give us more suffering. Um it's again, it's not something we wish on others, but we realize that it does play a part in conforming us into the likeness of Christ. And again, if there is a topic that the listener wants us to address, you know, please let us know. And and again, as Monty said, we prayerfully talk about, okay, what what is something that is on our heart that that we want to communicate and we pray that it uh prayerfully ministers to others. And so you can email us at will at coaching4, the number four, life.us, and let us know if there's something that you want us to address, or if you have a prayer request, we would love to go to the Lord on your behalf. And let's pray for the listener now. Lord, I do pray for anyone who might be hearing my voice, who might be going through a season of suffering right now. Would you speak your loving promises to them? Remind them of your loving kindness, uh, reassure them in the midst of the fire that you are right there. You are walking beside them through the valley of the shadow of death. We read in Psalm 23 that we walk through the valley, we don't stay there, and you lead us out into the light of your presence. So, Lord, refine us. And when we are weak, would we find our strength and our power in you? Make us more and more like your son. We ask this in the name of Jesus. Amen. Well, thank you for spending time with us today. And remember, whatever it is that you're facing, know that God loves you, He's for you, He's got a good plan for you, and we'll see you next time.

SPEAKER_01 35:12

Thank you for joining us at Coaching for Life. And please subscribe wherever you receive this content.