Investing in Capacity with guest expert Brenda Herchmer

We invest in roads.
We invest in buildings.
We invest in infrastructure.

What if we treated capacity the same way?

In a province where one person can be the CAO, economic development officer, planner, grant writer, and crisis manager all at once, capacity is no longer a “soft” issue. It is core economic infrastructure.

In this episode of Paths to Prosperity, Crystal Froese has a conversation with  Brenda Herchmer—community builder, systems thinker, and founder of the Campus for Communities of the Future.

Brenda has spent decades working across local government, post-secondary, and social purpose organizations, helping communities move from siloed thinking to connected ecosystems. She’s led national-recognized initiatives, co-chaired global networks like CatalystNow, and authored multiple books focused on leadership and systems change.

Brenda Herchmer will also be speaking at the Saskatchewan Economic Development Alliance Summit: “From Silos to Systems: Connecting the Dots to Local & Provincial Prosperity”
📅 October 27–28, 2026
🔗 https://seda.ca/2026-provincial-summit/

In this episode they unpack:

Why good ideas stall—even when funding exists
The real reason communities are stuck in “heroics” instead of sustainable delivery
And what it actually looks like to treat communities as ecosystems, not silos.

Paths to Prosperity is a platform for exploring how communities can build resilient, inclusive, and future‑ready economies.

Through thought leadership, practical insights, and conversations with leaders from across Saskatchewan and beyond, Paths to Prosperity examines the forces shaping local and regional economies—and the choices communities can make to navigate change with confidence.

Our focus is on what works, what’s emerging, and what leaders should be thinking about now.

To go deeper on the ideas shaping Saskatchewan’s future, https://seda.ca/about/paths-to-prosperity/ for more podcasts, thought leadership, and resources from the Saskatchewan Economic Development Alliance. 

Transcript

Crystal Froese 0:04

Okay, well, Brenda, thank you so much for joining me the today on this podcast. For listeners meeting you for the very first time, you could tell us a little bit about what the work you do and what kind of has drawn you to the idea that communities need to function as ecosystems.

Brenda Herchmer 0:22

Well, that's that's a great question. Because as you as you have covered in the introduction, my background's pretty eclectic. You know, I've I'm now a self-employed entrepreneur, but yeah, I've worked for corporations and local government, and but a lot of it has been with what we're starting to call social purpose organizations rather than nonprofits, nonprofits or charities or businesses with a primary social purpose. That's kind of the the uh when the federal government is using that term too, and I kind of like it because it really describes more about why we're important. But so I you know, I think I think what what got me to thinking more about ecosystems and whole communities is that I think over the last 25 years, every single community meeting I went to, someone in the room said, Yep, the systems are broken. This is not working, right? Like that's and I so you know, I you know, I think like a lot of other entrepreneurs and innovators, I just didn't want to be reacting to symptoms. I wanted to get into the the root causes and and pay more attention to what was causing the symptoms and the problems. And so that's ultimately why I ended up focusing on systems and the need to encourage and support others to get out of their isolated silos or you know, the isolation of being in a small community and and see what see their communities more as an ecosystem. Everything is inter-interconnected, you know. It's more about, I always say so like seeing the puzzle, the the picture on the top of the puzzle box. You know, I think most of us just have a couple of pieces of the puzzle. We don't we don't really know how to put it all together. And if we see the big picture, it really does help. And so that's the you know, that's the ecosystem is that that bigger picture. And so ultimately that kind of led to my focus that if, hey, if we're really going to make this work, we have to connect economic, social, environmental, and cultural well-being. That we can't we can't treat them separately. So it's it's been really worthwhile and meaningful, but I'll tell you it's a long, hard, and often lonely road. But I remember one of the first communities that I worked with in Alberta, the uh someone spoke up in the room and and he was kind of excited to be in the community meeting that was called because he said, you know, this is the I've lived in this community for 40 years. This is the first time we've ever come together and talked about the kind of community we want to be. Wow. Yeah. So that was pretty that's then I thought, okay, I'm on the right path here. My biggest. Yeah. Yeah, exactly.

Crystal Froese 3:12

And you know, we're all kind of obviously organizations, government across the board, we're all in the moment right now we're we're we're we're sort of tight budgets and and the rising of expectations and and that. So why why do you think that that makes capacity even more important than ever?

Brenda Herchmer 3:31

Well, you know, in the in the work that we're doing, you know, the the the solutions that came forward were the result of observing what was working, not what not necessarily looking at that the needs, which is quite often what we do. And we really saw ultimately that there was a need for leadership capacity, organizational capacity, and the overall community capacity. But the most important of those, that was leadership capacity. And it was, in fact, the only the only common denominator that we saw of communities that were doing well. It was that local leadership. And, you know, I think I think that you know it's really important right now because the the challenges are so complicated and complex and all interrelated. You know, it's like we're living in this world where where it's change on steroids. It's kind of like we've got our foot cemented to the accelerator, it's not going to change either. So it, you know, that that kind of that that speed of change and the complexity, it it really needs a different kind of leadership. And that really is about systems leadership. That's really what we're seeing is missing. And if you do you want me to talk about what we what surfaced as a result of that?

Crystal Froese 4:53

Because absolutely, yeah.

Brenda Herchmer 4:56

Because I think what we would it when we first started doing this work, we were kind of looking for an assessment that would help us determine the kind of leadership that was required for systems collaboration. We couldn't even find an assessment tool because most of them were more corporate-oriented. And so we this this is actually when I it started when I was teaching at Niagara College. And so we every meeting we ever had there, and then when I moved to Alberta, we we asked people, what do you what do you see in a leader that you want more of, or what is missing, or what is it you're doing that you think is is working? And so we just gathered all of that that raw data, and it's really not it's it's warm data, you know, it's not hard, cold, cold data. It's it's you know, a lot of it is intuitive, I think, more than anything. And then we just kind of organize them into eight different competencies. And so that's the kind of leadership that we've been focused on facilitating and supporting and coaching. And so that it I don't think this is really going to be a surprise, and we find this always resonates that the the competencies are things like how to mobilize collaborative approaches, how to utilize strategic foresight, you know, looking into the future. There's a, I mean, there's a whole field of futurists out there that we don't often pay a lot of attention to, promoting systems work, serving as a catalyst for change. And I I I really found this one was so important, but but people who live in communities, they're they're talking about the need for us to promote citizen responsibility, to engage them. You know, they get the fact that, you know, I well, I think my generation, I think we taught, we taught our our kids that they have rights. I that they have rights, I don't think we did as good a job as teaching them that with those rights come responsibilities. So, you know, that's that is a competency unto itself. Advocating for balanced development between economic and community development, that's one of the competencies. And, you know, the the last one, I think this is especially important for social profits and social purpose organizations, is to be able to employ entrepreneurial approaches so that it's not just about government funds, it's it or or philanthropic donations. It's also about, well, how can we generate revenue with the strengths and the assets that we have? So that's that's you know, I I think all of that collectively kind of came to leadership capacity for change. And and you know, it was really interesting. One of the first things I learned about change, I met this futurist and who's based in North Carolina, and in one in one of our first meetings, he said to me, Brenda, you do realize that there's two kinds of change. And and I I didn't. So he said he went on to say that where we're really most focused in terms of leadership is change that reforms. So change that makes what we're currently doing more efficient and more effective. And he said, that's what you know, it's kind of I I think that's really what we've been trained to do. But he what he said is that, you know, this the systems aren't working because this the system isn't its fault. The system has been designed to become to do things more efficiently and more effectively. So you think about the industrial era era, it was all about efficiency and effectiveness, but that's not working anymore. So what he what he what he talked to me about was the importance of systems change. And that is different, you know, and I I think because we're still kind of stuck in this change that reforms, it's you know, it's often there's a tendency to dismiss, you know, indigenous learnings, which are quite different, but so relevant, so relevant now, and the importance of community-led development because we kind of professionalized everything. And so it's like we have to really think about a systems leadership and get away from that top-down leadership that's kind of been embedded in us and get to more transformative kind of innovation. And that's that's quite that's quite different. It's a different set of competencies. It's the these all the combination of all of these different competencies. So yeah, that's the that's the leadership piece that's surfaced.

Crystal Froese 9:32

Yeah, that's really interesting. And and I think that's still very relevant to, you know, talking about capacity, you know, in rural and our small urban communities, you know, the thin capacity, you know, the day-to-day decision making or delivery. Can you can you share a story where you can kind of see, you know, that a good idea couldn't scale up because of the human system wasn't built to carry it because of capacity?

Brenda Herchmer 10:00

Well, you know, I think it's everywhere. Stories are everywhere. Yeah. Yeah, like I don't know how, you know, and and you know, the the statistics show that we're we're declining in terms of productivity as a country. We're declining in terms of innovation. And I think it's really because of the leadership that we've been conditioned to embrace. It's it's more about, you know, like what I just talked about, those competencies, those are competencies for working outside of your organization. You know, like like how do you connect with others and collaborate and work together to transform and innovate? And I think what we've really done is focused more. I mean, we were trained to focus on the internal capacity. So it's internal leadership versus external leadership, different sets of competencies, different kinds of capacity. And we need to do more because that's why we can't, you know, that's why we can't scale. Because the system isn't built for scaling. It's not built for transformation, it's built for change that reforms. So it has been a challenge, for sure.

Crystal Froese 11:11

And and I think we're seeing too within within our leadership areas that we're having turnover and maybe struggles with overlapping and unclear authority, you know. People are kind of stuck in that area. Even if you are a leader right now who has that entrepreneurial outtake, you're doing three, four different things in three to four different areas, particularly if you're in a small urban community or rural community. You know, how do we how do we how do we move out of that, out of that? And or or even more so have a proper expectation around capacity on what on what our leadership and what our organizations can actually accomplish.

Brenda Herchmer 11:57

Yeah, I I think it is like I I think you're probably alluding to the thin capacity that is out there and the reluctance to even try to change because we're all stretched, we're all stretched so so thin. But I think it's just really important to understand that we have to do things differently. And when I talk about the external competencies that are needed to work more collaboratively, not everyone has to be that person. You know, it's a different set of competencies. And I'll tell you, I think that it is often about the way people think. You know, you we are wired differently. I I think the world is kind of controlled right now by very very linear thinkers, more left-brained thinkers. And I think we have to understand that we absolutely need them and they're really important, but we have to also pay more attention to the right brain thinkers, you know, the the the big picture thinkers. The I I I know I was once called a positive deviant. And it first I was kind of a little insulted, but then I thought, oh, maybe that's a good thing, you know, like you entrepreneurs or the lateral thinkers are often dismissed. And I think if we don't do anything else, like let's just be receptive to someone who is in the minority. I mean, I even think the way we make decisions is is on the basis of democracy. And and I think some that even that is a challenge because we've been conditioned to do that, and because it's the people on the fringe a lot of times, you know, the positive deviance that we need right now. So let's invite them in and make sure that we're listening. You know, I I found in the work that we did in communities, the it's really hard for those who have formal titles as a leader to make change these days. There's red tape, you know, there's elected officials that you report to. The the um the most impactful leaders we saw in the work that we did with over 16 different communities came from the people, the residents who cared about their community, the people who lived there. They weren't necessarily attached to any organizations, they just got stuff done. Yeah. And you know, they were able to get things done too, because there was a real consensus for what the community wanted to do and what was important. And so they all came together and just got things done.

Crystal Froese 14:28

And a real strong sense of collaboration. Well, in in our in our upcoming May blog, we're talking about leadership with Saskatchewan being Saskatchewan's hidden infrastructure. And and and what are some of the warnings when like key leaders are leaving work? I just wanted to know in your expertise, like what does distributed leadership look like in practice?

Brenda Herchmer 14:53

I think it's really critical right now, especially because what is so clear that is that I don't care how good anyone is or how good any organization is, you can't do it by yourself anymore. You know, so so distributed leadership is really about sharing that power and that leadership. And it is often informal leadership, you know. I I think we just gotta embrace the idea that distributed leadership doesn't require a formal title. You know, it's really how you behave. And I think, you know, because we think leadership is about a title, we've kind of dismissed people. Like them, you know, the impactful leaders I saw, you know, were people who didn't have a formal title, who a lot of women who got things done, a lot of young people, a lot of indigenous peoples, you know. So I think that that part is really important. But but I think it's it's it's very much needs to be about distributed leadership because that increases engagement and ownership among those who live in a community, especially if they're involved at the beginning. So it empowers them just to be involved in those decisions. They own it, and that's why they get things done. You know, they come up with different experiences, that's and different resources, different assets, and that's also why it's more innovative, because I think innovation is social. That's that's really what we saw. And I think, you know, you look at their diverse, you know, their diverse experiences, their their their the different assets and resources, the context, the networks that they have, when you bring that all together, like that amplifies the efforts. And and I think it also leads to less burnout. You know, I was at one, we had one workshop in a rural community, and at the end of the day of the workshop, I asked people for one word that described how they felt at the end of the day. And one elected official said, therapeutic. And so I thought, I had to ask him, what did you mean by that? And he said, Well, you know, I've been tasked with a very short timeline to develop a community center, and I've been so stressed about it. And what my takeaway is, is that I don't have to have the answers. I just have to call the meeting. And and I thought, okay, see, that's a good that to me, that's kind of what collective leadership is. I think that's, you know, that's how you avoid the burnout. I know that that's how how he felt too. And I think the the other thing, it I think it really does contribute to, you know, the whole innovation piece and and it's more more, I think, freedom to experiment, you know, because it's uh it's not on anyone's shoulder as a formal leader, you know, who's who can't fail. You know, it's like when it's a group that comes together, a smaller group and tackles an initiative, you know, I don't there isn't a lot of failure. And even if there is, there's a lot of learnings. So it's okay, it's a good thing, I think.

Crystal Froese 18:20

Yeah. And speaking of workshops, you've got one coming up here in the fall with us the past the Prosperity and Provincial Summit. And you're gonna be speaking on strategies like leadership for systems collaboration and collective knowledge sharing. What would you say are the simplest ways that communities could start building those muscles? Yeah.

Brenda Herchmer 18:39

Yeah, that's a really, really good question. I think the most important thing that I learned, my background was community-led development. And um, and I thought I mean that's what I was teaching. And so I understood it. I know from an academic point of view, but the boots on the ground experience really taught me that the importance of engaging people before you plan anything. And that that doesn't, you know, that rarely happens, you know, it's just so important to engage people in community and economic development before you do anything. And I think of all the time and energy we waste, you know, around, you know, you know, whether it's you know, housing or health, where the experts make a call to just a decision to do something, and then there's major pushback, you know, about the housing development or where it's built or how it's built. And and you know, you think about all the the time and energy in that. Whereas if they had gone to the community first and say, here's the here's the issue, or if the community had said, I think that's even more important, is just the community decides what the issues are, you know, what you know, what what are the assets we can work from, but also what what are the issues we need to be addressing as a community? What are the priorities? And I know in in one community, that just became so another, this is another community, it just became so clear because when they come to when they plan differently, when a community plans differently, they come together, it's really about what kind of community want we want to be. So they really come together and talk about their values as a community, they talk about the outcomes they want to see, and they map their community. So we're gently nudging them to plan differently by first doing a community report card, like a community check up, and it's a and it's that's one of the tools that I'll be able to share in at the conference. But I but I think what ends up happening with with that is that they there's consensus. It's not a democratic vote, there's consensus for where they should start and what is important. And in this particular community, they they what they were looking for were opportunities to utilize the beautiful environment around them and the river that ran through the air by the edge of the town. There was very little access to the to the to the river, and this beautiful environment was they felt that was so important, but also important as a tourism opportunity. And the second thing that they were looking for were family-oriented activities because there was a lot of young families and they just felt that was a that was missing. And you know, within six months, the sit the the town council there said they kind of looked at one at one another because they were at the meeting and said, We're not doing much of that at all. Within six months, they had prioritized those two things. So it's a different kind of planning. It's not, you know, and and I just it's it's uh I don't think it's difficult that there are tools and techniques, and we were able to, as a result of our work, kind of end up with a a planning framework that and and a way a way to do that that worked and it was just by observing what was working and then we gathered many many tools and the so the framework and then the tools and the resources be for each step so it's kind of like a recipe book there's a step and then there's a number of different tools that you can access to use.

Crystal Froese 22:22

So yeah so planning yeah yeah so that's wonderful and I'm just wondering if we have someone listening here today who's in a small community and they they're just their capacity is so stretched and and their their systems are really to have turned into heroics what what would you say that could be like one way for them to shift from that heroics into a sustainable delivery.

Brenda Herchmer 22:51

Yeah I think they the most important thing is having the someone responsible for calling the meetings. And you know who those people are there's there's a there's probably one or two people in your community already who are influencers who can call a meeting and people will show up. You know I think I think that piece because you know even my in my own community I've asked well it's Navrix so there's 12 communities but I've been asking politicians for for a while about about how are we doing and what you know to so we could get to what needs to be done. And my even my my own mayor he said I wish you had asked me about economic development he said I could tell you exactly how we're doing quality of life he said I haven't got a clue. So it's that you know the it's the systems catalyst so this one person who's the influencer who can call a meeting and people will show up they're the neutral systems catalyst catalyst who brings people together from from economic and the community the social side brings them together and and that's because that that we don't it's not anybody's job right now. And you know even when I challenge a politician on that and say well whose job is it they the typical answer is it's everybody's job to to call that meeting and bring everyone together but you know what when it's everybody's responsibility it's nobody's responsibility. That's what we learned. And it doesn't get done. So if there's a way to kind of of of to call together that kind of a small cohort of you know of of influencers of systems catalysts change agents there's a lot of different names for them some of the foundations are calling them systems orchestrators. We're doing a certification process now and hope to develop more of that of those those skills within individuals. I think it is I think systems catalyst is a whole new discipline that doesn't currently exist. And and and I think we're also trying to get that into all the colleges and universities because we need we need the young people they already get this they don't understand our sectors and silos and they don't care about our sectors and silos. They just want us to get things done. So I think that that piece is important.

Crystal Froese 25:22

Yeah a hundred percent and so we're going to talk a little bit about like what high capacity in Saskatchewan could actually look like you know we have various levels of government that are maybe are they are they built for control not collaboration? And and are we are we as a result just experiencing the failures and or just friction and and you know where should Saskatchewan adapt our governance first to sort of address this so we can begin to build high capacity?

Brenda Herchmer 25:52

Yeah. Well I think there's I think it is about elected officials being able to make informed decisions. So so a lot of that is about what we've just talked about in terms of of listening to the people you serve and gathering information. And it's much simpler now with technology to be able to do that. You can do it online you don't have to worry about being getting to a meeting or finding someone to take care of your kids so you can free up some time. So I think that's important. But I but it is ultimately about collaboration. It it has to be about collaboration. But I think there's also some trends in emerg and kind of early signals that we're seeing emerging that I think would speak to what a successful Saskatchewan would look like. I think I think you're ahead of the pack right now the fact that you're having this discussion is really unusual and but I think it's such a positive indicator. But one of the movements that we're starting to see is the whole concept of community wealth build wealth building and the the regenerative economy and really what that means it's a model for it's directing wealth to stay in the community. And I think that's what's really essential for a a lot of smaller communities. It's interesting because the the majority of the resources in Canada the natural resources that the that we and the world need are in rural communities and yet we don't take care of our rural communities. They're kind of an afterthought I've never really understood that that part of it but so it is more about the placing the ownership and the control and the benefits in the hand of local businesses. So it like that means more things like um local ownership and co-ops employee owned businesses and and and local control over the assets that exist within the footprint of that community. So that's one thing that community wealth building that would to me really flag that yeah that we're being successful here in Saskatchewan because we get that part of it. I think the other thing that is missing we talked about this a little a little bit but this needs capacity it needs leadership organizational and community capacity and what we're seeing and I think our federal government is starting to they're using the term intermediaries and I think that's what a lot of my work has been has been about being in an intermediary that is it's kind of an in-between the organizations so it's about supporting the local leadership and you know the capacity building and sharing information about what we should be paying attention to and making sure that you have you have trained and capable systems catalysts who can call the meeting and help with that part of it. So it it really I mean the intermediate need to be those who know how to bring together local residents businesses social purpose organizations and government you know it those there's those are really we don't even talk about local residents or citizens as a fourth sector they need to be part of that that process too but they may need support to do it because it's new and it's it's a different way of doing things. And I think I think you know in terms of economic development as well I I I think there needs to be and what would to me flags and indicates success is more of a transformation in the market. So it's not just helping one business or attracting a new business to your community it's more about shifting in in in the the rules the the habits the support that we provide for for businesses in general we're finding the the small and medium size entrepreneurs are some of the most resourceful and innovative we've seen but they are not being supported and they're not getting funding. A lot of times the fund the funding comes from their own pockets and then it's difficult to scale because you've spent so much time and energy you know to ensure you've got a great product or service but it's difficult to scale it. So they're changing the whole the the market system you know where you're so the support is different. So and I think you know it's more fair it's more local the support it's low carbon you know that becomes a normal way of doing business instead of what we're the the majority of of of economic development is focused on right now. Yeah that cleaner greener low carbon economy that's really yeah but I think it also has to be done with you know with a just transition so that those who are impacted they're not left behind. They need to be supported in you know when we're phasing out fossil fuels and we still need to help workers and families and and communities find new opportunities. So you know that's that's where the intermediaries are going to be really important and they're a lot of times they're missing right now. I think CETA to a certain extent is an intermediary as well and with more funding think about what they could do as well with the uh you know with a focus on that kind of support and I think in I I I do think that we need more you know multi-stakeholder placed based governance like I I just think that it's we've got to flip the paradigm and make this grassroots up because grass tops down it hasn't isn't doesn't work in this era. We still need cross top grass tops but we need grass grassroots and we need to be able to meet in the middle a lot of times you know move horizontally move vertically and sometimes even diagonally I think we we need to to work together. You know there's so many things that we could do you know prioritizing shared data and joint strategies and you know getting communities to work with other communities in the same region that's going to be really important in instead of focusing on one off kind of standalone projects. So if we if we started to do that if we if we started to work in our ecosystems rather than silos and and and we started to see you know readiness kind of beyond the the typical shovel ready infrastructure type system you know with clear roles and accountability and as you said having somebody actually you know leading the meetings with collaboration like if we did that like what would change in Saskatchewan what what do you see that would that if Saskatchewan adopted that what would change I'm pretty sure we'd see the values of of the majority of of people who live in Saskatchewan being met you know so it is about a different kind of well-being that is balanced and focused on you know the the social side the environmental side the cultural side in well as well as you know as the economic side it's got to move away from being a monoculture I think we would see more inclusion that you know everyone feels values and has greater opportunities more respect for diversity and you know and I think I think one of the big things that I see you know when we start working with a community we never really talk about their needs because if we talk about their needs first they figure that it's our responsibility to fix them. So it's more about having an asset-based mindset you know what what do we have that we can work from to address the values of our community so that mindset I think and then you know that all of that leads to more sustainability and more self-determination as a community you know the things we talked about in terms of community wealth building that's really what will I think that's really what will change and I like to think that one of the things that will change is that people in general will be willing to embrace the messy like to really you know because I think sometimes this is so much about change. I think we just kind of ignore it because it's tough and we don't really know how to do it. But I don't think our job, you know, I think we were trained to think that our jobs as leaders is really to solve problems and that doesn't work any anymore. And I we learned this the hard way because whenever we put a group together all they wanted to do was define a problem and solve it. And we don't have all the information that we need is to to make an informed decision. But I think the j the job of leaders these days is to design a process to make sure ever sure to make sure that every voice is heard. Yeah because they're all important right and that's the planning piece.

Crystal Froese 35:16

Yeah exactly and it's interesting that you say about the kind of change being tumultuous I was at an event at 15 Wing that was a town hall that was led by Brigadier General Denis O'Reilly and he was speaking because of course they're going through ample change through the Department of Defense and through Canadian Air Force and he talked about being comfortable with being uncomfortable. Yes and unlearning yes when you're going through change get comfortable with being uncomfortable and I think from a leadership perspective in any community that is so important to to grasp because that that concept itself makes it easier for you to move through with some pushback and you know some of the the the turn that might happen the tumultuous part of it. Yeah that was that was a great that was a great little bit of advice.

Brenda Herchmer 36:06

It's kind of like and I wish I could remember the name of the book but there I oh but what what what they what I heard from it was or got from this book was that it's about also about parking your ego and moving from egos to ego system ego eco ecosystems to ecosystems.

Crystal Froese 36:28

Oh yes yeah perfect because that's exactly your topic is ecosystems. I had trouble get getting that one out but yeah I anticipated leaving your ego behind which really speaks to what you said about collaboration and and coming together laterally with your community and bringing the ideas and working together understanding your capacity but that you're you you don't have to solely do it yourself. The vision should be from those within the community within urban rural organizations nonprofits all of those fall under that category for sure.

Brenda Herchmer 37:05

I think a lot of times the um I heard this from another a futurist who said you can't be a futurist unless you're willing to be receptive to something that you don't have a bucket to put in. And I thought that was really interesting too because I think none of us really like change because it is messy and it is chaotic but and it's a we'll we'll often resist it but I I remind myself every time that I think oh yeah no I don't want like that like I don't get that I don't think that's going to work but then you kind of go okay well tell me more and you'll end up finding a piece of this puzzle that makes a lot of sense that you had never thought about before yes stay curious yes yes yes that's it exactly that helps with leaving the ego at the door if you can stay curious in a situation you might learn something yeah along the way it is really true.

Crystal Froese 38:02

It is really true. Yeah so we're just getting a little bit closer to the to the end of our conversation and and I know Brenda we want our listeners to have a connection point and kind of a key takeaway from our discussion. So I've got two questions and uh I'm just I just want you to just give me your reaction. So start with the first one. So based on everything you've seen what is one concrete connection point Saskatchewan should prioritize to build capacity.

Brenda Herchmer 38:31

A connection point I'm not sure if this is a connection point but I would say it is that together is better. That's if I had a mantra that's it's yeah yeah perfect.

Crystal Froese 38:45

And if an individual leader or or an organization wanted to strengthen capacity in their own work what's the first move they should make in the next 30 days? Call the meeting call the meeting don't wait till you have the answers just call the meetings.

Brenda Herchmer 39:05

I think it's really embracing the idea that we don't always need external experts and resources. I found in so many cases when a community started to collaborate and build trusted relationships they found that they had their own Ruby slippers.

Crystal Froese 39:25

Yeah they had everything they needed that's that's a beautiful metaphor so in closing we're gonna just do a little rapid fire reflection. I've got a couple questions so just whatever kind of pops into your head what's one thing you wish more people understood about capacity as economic infrastructure. You know I think it's the I one of the and we haven't really talked about this but I think it's the importance of infrastructure that is focused on digitization and AI.

Brenda Herchmer 40:04

I think it's also really important it's important for people who live in a community to talk to one another and then the communities to to share and and transfer their knowledge. But then I think we we resist a lot of time especially in we've we resist it a lot of time especially in rural communities because it has been hard but I think a lot of a lot of it is getting better and easier. So I think that yeah the yeah the digital and and ai optimization is going to be really important. It's an infrastructure it's a different kind of infrastructure yeah and we're and people need to to learn about that yeah absolutely yeah and what's the most common myth leaders believe about collaboration and capacity yeah I it is kind of kind of what I just talked about was that we think we need outside expertise and resources and it's so much more about the people who live in a community because they care about their community. And I think when we work collaborative collaboratively it's just amazing. There's I think it's like the universe helps us out too when a community and I saw that so many times when a community decides on what it is that is their priority it's amazing how fast things happening and the the universe kind of helps you out along the way too I think yeah sort of relights a fire amongst people especially when they know they're not alone and they have help. Well isn't that what community is supposed to be isn't it truly yeah yeah community is about feeling that you're not alone that you're part of something bigger than yourself and somebody else has got your back and I think that's you know that I think community and economic can be structured to do more of that to get us back our sense of community because we have lost a lot of that you know buried in our little silos.

Crystal Froese 42:03

Absolutely and lastly fill in the blank capacity is the new capital because? Yeah I'm probably repeating myself but but we can't do it alone like that's that's really what it's about.

Brenda Herchmer 42:23

That's the it you know it's just not and it's not about capacity around everyone thinks it's about money but it's we found in a lot of our work that confused things. So it is really a you know it is about networking and understanding that we can't we're better for that networking yeah and engaging the community together.

Crystal Froese 42:47

Brenda this has been just wonderful your insight and expertise is just amazing and I really thank you for spending time with us today and and sharing this with us and I really look forward to to our summit this October for your workshop and thank you again so much for spending time today with us appreciate it. Well thank you Crystal you made this painless I really do appreciate and I'm looking forward to coming to Saskatchewan too so thank you so very much.