Readi or not hurricane a come!

This episode explores risk and resilience at the national, community, and household levels. Using disaster risk frameworks, we'll examine how vulnerabilities develop over time, who bears the greatest risk, and how nature-based solutions can reduce exposure and strengthen preparedness before disasters strike.  

Produced by the Environmental Foundation of Jamaica with funding support from Global Affairs Canada.

This podcast was recorded at Harry J Studio, Kingston, Jamaica. 

Producer: Reneiquca Walker-McKnight 

Transcript

SPEAKER_02 0:09

Ready or not, Orikeena Comb. Hello everybody, you are tuned in to Resilience Naturally Podcast. This podcast is produced by the Environmental Foundation of Jamaica as part of the Jamaica Urban Solutions for the Environment Project, otherwise known as J Use. My name is Carol Narsi, and I'm the gender and social inclusion specialist on this project. With me, as my wonderful co-host, uh is Rashini Clark Randall. Hi Rashini.

SPEAKER_00 0:43

Hello everyone, and I'm Rashini Clark Randall, the nature-based climate solution specialist with the JUSE project. Over the next few weeks, we will be taking you on a journey to explore issues surrounding how climate change, climate action, and gender intersects. And how closely we're working with nature.

SPEAKER_02 1:05

Yeah, to help us solve. To help us solve some of the problems. Yeah. And so on that note, can you believe it's almost hurricane season again? Yes, I can believe.

SPEAKER_00 1:19

Who needs it? It's a yearly occurrence that we need to pay some attention to.

SPEAKER_02 1:24

Yeah, and to help us pay attention is our guest for this conversation, uh, former head of Odd PEM, the Office of Disaster. Come, you were there.

SPEAKER_00 1:34

Office of Disaster Preparedness. Preparedness, that's it. Emergency management.

SPEAKER_02 1:38

Right, Odd PEM. And also for many years, he was the uh executive director of Odd PEM. He also served for a number of years. He went from Odpem out into the wider Caribbean and served at the Caribbean Disaster Emergency Management Agency, aka Sedima. He was there for seven years. He helped set up the whole Caribbean systems for responding to hurricanes. He's currently at the United Nations Development Program as the head of disaster risk reduction and recovery based in Geneva. He is, by training, an urban planner and also natural resource management is his background. Ronald Jackson is our guest for this first conversation that we're having around the fact that hurricanes are come, ready or not. And so we want to talk a little bit, especially with Melissa still fresh in our minds. We want to take a closer look on how hurricane preparedness, what we have to do, because here we are come June, is it Rashini? It starts in June, correct?

SPEAKER_00 2:54

Yes. Hurricane season goes from June to November each year.

SPEAKER_02 2:59

And so we want to talk about what are the things that go into our being prepared? How do we understand risk and all this buzzword about resilience? What does that really mean? What does it take? I want to ask you first, Rashini, what do we mean by risk?

SPEAKER_00 3:16

In looking at risk, I think we need to first define two other terms, um, being vulnerability and exposure. And to make it simple, I would want to give an example of what we mean by the difference between vulnerability and exposure. So let's paint a picture of a scenario where I am an elderly female. I live in an isolated, remote area on the hillside in Jamaica. Um and it's hurricane season in this scenario. Um, and so we hear that a hurricane, let's say Hurricane Erin is coming to Jamaica. So in my position as an elderly female living in an isolated, remote area, I would also want to bring in context that my my shelter, my home, my dwelling is uh not the most prepared um structurally for what comes with a hurricane, the winds, the potential land slippage, um, the fact that the materials of my structure are not the most sound.

SPEAKER_02 4:46

Um, and so then in hearing about this impending hurricane and knowing my innate vulnerabilities being my age as one factor, where I'm living as another factor, and my gender as another factor, um therein would define what is vulnerability because I love the I love the scenario you're painting, and I'm gonna hold you on that note and that point and just bring Ronald in. Because Ronald, is there anything you would add or take away from the the way Rashini is explaining? She's explaining it from people, right? How how risk operates with us as individuals, families, communities. And then there's also risk for the physical environment of the country, risk to the economy. So, how would you um respond to Rashini's example? And then what else would you want to add?

SPEAKER_01 5:51

Well, let me say, I think you know, she is really boiling it down for broader understanding. And I think that's important, right? Because for the scientists within us, we you know, we we we speak to the sort of higher-level uh scientific definition and we talk about probabilities. Um, and and and so what Rashini is doing is really clarifying what that means and making it real to the individuals. All I would add to her point is this this question around capabilities or capacities. You know, in that definition around looking at risk, um, there is what we call the C capacity. Uh so yes, all the variables around being uh an elderly female potentially single, living on a hillside in an infrastructure, housing infrastructure that is not made of the best material is a part of it. But also what's available in that community can also determine the level um of risk, quote unquote, right? Uh the extent to which you will you will struggle as a single female elderly living in the context described.

SPEAKER_02 7:08

When you say what's in the community, Ronald, what what are you meaning?

SPEAKER_01 7:12

So you're talking about whether you have access to um an emergency shelter, you're talking about whether you have access to um you know heavy equipment that can also clear the pathways so that you can get support in or individuals can get out, um, adds to this. It talks about whether or not you have a family member close by who can lend a hand in the circumstances where you're threatened by this type of event. That's capacity, it can mean different things depending on if you're looking at it uh as Rashini said at an individual level, or it can also be looking at institutional capacities. Um, if you're looking at uh you know a local law authority, a parish council, uh, a government institution, a government sector, a school, etc. You know, what knowledge do you have, what resources you have that can help to reduce the level of suffering, disruption, the dislocation that you could face by this threat, which you know you've spoken to as the hurricane or the tropical storm that might be coming to face you. So I wanted to add that as well too.

SPEAKER_02 8:29

Yeah. I want us to unpack a little bit the idea of disaster. We talk about natural disaster as if it's natural, that it must happen, that once you have a storm, you will have a disaster. Should we be understanding it differently? Does natural phenomena like storms or and so hurricane, does that always equal disaster? Or is there something that if the phenomenon happens and certain things are not there or not there in sufficient ways? So unpack the concept of disaster, both of you.

SPEAKER_00 9:11

Okay.

SPEAKER_01 9:12

And then that's not very important. So go ahead, go ahead, Rashid, and then I'll come back in.

SPEAKER_00 9:16

So I think you touched on it, um, being that by capacity, um, I would put it in another term that's also relatable and say readiness. Um and why I would put it that way is because where disaster happens is where there's a breakdown in that interaction of a natural phenomena and the social structures or social systems that are in place. So if I go back to what is defined as vulnerability and then lead into exposure, which is that being vulnerable does not always mean that you're exposed, um, so to speak. But it's likely that there's a positive relationship between being vulnerable and being exposed. Um, and so no, I don't agree with the thinking that natural disasters or natural phenomena occurring equals disaster. But I'll allow Mr. Jackson to qualify that um in his expertise.

SPEAKER_01 10:30

No, I I think you're spot on, and you know, credit to both of you. I you know, it's it's really you know wonderful to hear the the I would say the language you use in our context. You would say the risk language. We we share a common risk language. You talk about natural phenomena, or we say natural hazards, right? Um there are natural there's no such thing called a natural disaster, right? They're natural hazards and natural phenomena. They occur naturally as part of the Earth's process. Uh, depending on where you are in the world, you will face these types of cyclical phenomena that comes through. How well you face them depends on uh you know the types of uh investments you make um at an individual level. So you know you you spoke earlier around the quality of your housing, you know, your ability to shelter in place. You know, that will determine uh to what extent these natural phenomena leads to outcomes that overwhelm your ability to be able to cope with them. And that's the that's the definition of a disaster. A disaster is is is any adverse event, natural, man-made, man-induced that exceeds the capacity of an individual, a community, a community or a country ability to cope using their own resources. Once you get beyond your ability to cope, you have a disaster.

SPEAKER_02 12:23

I want to just stop here because I can feel the brains on the listening side of this conversation doing a oh, you mean there's no such thing as natural disaster? We've always heard about natural disaster. Um so so I come again. What how how do we how how should we understand this in as plain a way as possible? If we all right, what would we need to have in place for there to be hurricanes that don't have the result of completely disrupting our lives and destroying everything and we we're homeless, shelterless, and everything shut down and we're lost? Or is it that those things that those kinds of impacts can happen, but you can, if some things are in place, you can bounce back from them more quickly than if they're not.

SPEAKER_01 13:30

Correct. And there you're going into you, you know, when you talk about if those things are placed, you can bounce back. I think you're you're you're touching on the other side of risk, right? Um, which uh Rashini was describing, which is resilience, the ability to face these occurrences and to reduce the length of time that you are caught up in this sense of discomfort, this sense of dislocation. And to and to get there, it means we have to look at a number of things. We have to look at how we coincide with nature. What do I mean? We have people who reside on the banks of rivers or within close proximity to a river. You the closer you get to these natural systems, these natural waterways, or even uh you know man-made waterways can determine the extent to which your discomfort, your dislocation uh you know, um extends. The quality of the housing, and here now I'm not talking about you have to be living in block and steel with a slab roof because we recognize there are different income levels in our country. It's really about how well you observe the design requirements, so how you design the house so that it can withstand those um you know windshares, how well you fortify the uprights of the house, so the the columns, whether it's wooden wooden columns, how well you secure them to a foundation, right? And the quality of the material that you use. And oftentimes what we see is that in in you know informal communities, there's a lot of self-help housing that takes place. And a lot of talking to someone in your country, especially if you're elderly, you know, you need to put on a roof, someone in the community, a neighbor may say they'll help you, and they get on the top and they're nailing the zinc sheets on and putting on the lumbo. It doesn't mean they have the know-how. Yeah, the know-how in terms of how you put these things on. That can be the difference between how long you stay in that period of discomfort and dislocation. So these are some of the simple things we can do to either ensure, and you saw it in Melissa, you know, there were a number of houses in communities affected, right? Beside one, the roof is gone, and another beside it's on. The roof stayed on. You know, a next instance, the entire house has collapsed, and beside it, there is a house standing. Why did that happen? Right? What can we learn from individuals as to why this occurs? That's the difference between a disaster for one and what might not be a disaster for another. It might be an emergency, but not a disaster.

SPEAKER_00 16:30

Yeah. So, so thank you, Mr. Jackson. Thank you. Um, and it's interesting because this is all now relatable. I think Melissa has brought to light um a certain awareness of what we mean by contextual risk. Um, not everywhere that was affected by Melissa was impacted the same way. If we can even reflect on some of the facts. Montego Bay, for example, was able to bounce back much faster than Savannah Lamar. Um, and then there's more ways we can deep dive that. But what I would want us to explore is the way that we have looked at natural disasters, so to speak. Um, if we should flip the lens and then look as nature as a solution to hazard events, that's flipping the script completely. Absolutely. And that's where we enter nature-based solutions, which is where we really want to shed some light on what these are and how how they can play an important role in reducing risk and as such help us to reframe in our minds that concept of natural disaster or of nature being uh a hazard, a hazardous place. I mean, nature is wild, but how can we use nature to solve some of these problems that we're facing time and time again? So, Mr. Jackson, I don't won't know if you want to debunk with us that theory.

SPEAKER_01 18:11

Absolutely. I'm really loving the way you're you're flipping the script. Um, and I think this is part of what we need to do, and credit to you, right? I think it's we need to we need to sort of deconstruct some of the the things we've we've we've grown up to believe uh and and to think and how we communicate, right? I mean, how can something that is you refer to it as wild? Um, you know, I see it as more intrinsic to our own survival and who we are as a people. We we derive our health, our well-being, our economic prosperity. It's uh it's a source of our our own um entertainment, you know, we go to the beach, we go to the river, it's part of who we are as a people. Um, you know, and you know, we one side of it is we talk about good environmental stewardship. Now, how could something that is so kind to us and give us all of these things be something that we we we see as being inherently bad, so we call it a natural disaster. It it doesn't compute, right? What it what I see nature as is as you know, um, because it's the source of what sustains life, from time to time it has to clean and to renew and to refresh um its its itself. Um, and all of what you're saying is then how do we lean into this belief that nature is about protecting us, is about providing this well-being, it's about providing um opportunities for prosperity, and it is then how we preserve the balance between the natural systems and the buffers it provides to us. And that's what we've been doing wrong, right? We've been encroaching on and encroaching, you know, meaning we're we're we're we're building into a lot of these uh buffers that nature provides us, that protects us from the harmful elements um associated with the cleaning and the renewing and the refreshing of natural systems so it can continue to provide what I said before, the health, the well-being, uh, and and so forth.

SPEAKER_02 20:35

So I want us to for our listeners to come away from this conversation with knowledge and in and facts and information that they can uh use to look at their world in a different way, to look at their life circumstances in a different way, and to interact with the natural environment in a different way. So the um the project that this podcast is part of, right, the Jamaica Urban Solutions for the Environment project that the Environmental Foundation of Jamaica is implementing with support from Global Affairs Canada, is going to be enabling the Environmental Foundation of Jamaica to continue to provide support after we have kind of introduced the program, to continue to provide support for what's called nature-based solutions. So I want us to talk then now a little bit about um, Ronald, you've been referring to the ways that nature provides a buffer against some of the potential hazards that come from natural phenomena like storms, etc. What are we talking about when we mention natural buffers as one example of the things, the assets that we have, the way nature protects us, and the way we can work with nature? To reduce the risk that we live with. So what are we talking about? Both yourself and Rashini, because this is Rashini's area as well. What are we talking about?

SPEAKER_01 22:11

I'll let Rashini the experts start. I'm chomping at the same time. So what's this natural?

SPEAKER_02 22:17

What are we talking about? When we say natural buffer, what's that?

SPEAKER_00 22:20

Okay. So my role here today is to ensure that the listeners understand what we mean by certain terms at the highest level. And so I will try to break it down with again an example, right? So in a literal sense, a buffer, as what Mr. Jackson is referring to, would be, for example, we know what a river is. We need no definition for that. But the way how nature was originally designed is that around a river, there is a plane, a space in which when that river is replenishing itself and renewing and regulating and cleansing, there's a space that is meant to contain these flood waters and these overflows. But let's now introduce the social context and our settlement patterns here in Jamaica, which is that because of our the nature of our livelihoods, um because of access to an important resource such as water, we find that now there are a lot of residences, a lot of settlements that have formed within these areas that was originally designed so that nature could replenish itself, clean itself, renew itself. And so then we are now occupying a space that served as a buffer, but is not functioning as a buffer and is now functioning as homes to families, in which case therein becomes the development of vulnerability and exposure for these people living within these areas. Um, and so in that context, that's what we mean by buffers. Also, the mountains play a role, the hillsides play a role. Um, so in that, not everywhere is ideal for homes for residences. And so by introducing nature-based solutions, I would first define it so that people know what we mean. And what we mean are design implementations that utilize natural elements such as rocks, stones, vegetation, different species of plants that have multiple benefits in implementing these solutions, so to speak, or these interventions. So, for example, if we have an issue of flooding, there's a way we can use nature to solve that.

SPEAKER_02 25:07

Can I just pause you a little bit before you go on to uh how how we can intervene in a flooding situation? I wanted to get Ronald's take on buffer. Okay. Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 25:20

So there are other buffers. I mean, you know, the and and we can appreciate that many Jamaicans will know because we we go to the beach, some of us are fishermen, or coral reefs, or coral cover, and the beach that we often see are also part of nature's buffer. Uh, they reduce the energy of the waves that come ashore during a storm. It cuts the energy, the forces with which these waves come at us, um, therefore reducing the level of impact that could occur to your home, your community, your road infrastructure, and so on. Other buffers include or mangroves, or mangroves, or seabed, right? And I'm pointing these out because you know, we have seen over time where we've encroached, we have moved into these natural systems, these uh nature-based solutions and systems that are given to us to protect us, right? And we disrupt them. So your your mangroves, your morass, your seabeds, your coral reefs, and I want to touch on something Rashine said when she talked about rivers. Nature thinks about everything in its in its grand design. So when the waters come from the mountains, there's something we call the upper morass, right? You have the upper morass and the lower morass. What nature has designed for us is that it has a way of holding these flood waters and ensuring that our rivers are able to flow into the ocean more efficiently and it slowly releases these flood waters that are stored first in the upper morass, then to the lower morass. But if we start to build into these spaces, what we're doing is disrupting those natural systems.

SPEAKER_02 27:37

I can hear people who are listening saying, some people might be saying, Yeah, but man have to live. So what he's saying to me, how do, how can I live, have a livelihood, right? So I go into the the mangrove because I'm catching crabs and selling crabs. You know, I'm taking people on a boat ride into it, and I'm using um an oil-leaking engine on the boat and taking oil through the mangrove. I'm cutting some of the mangrove trees because we use that for coal and so on. So people have to live. It might be one way in which people are hearing this conversation. So, how do we respond to the need to live and the need to protect, the need to interact with um without doing it in ways that so destroy what we have that we no longer have the buffer? How do we create that balance? Or or is it impossible to have a balance?

SPEAKER_01 28:47

Oh, that's a that's a very, very important uh question and a very important conversation for us to have. Um, not just in this space, but as a collective, because you know, once upon a time uh we we were able to achieve that, you know, this balance where many of the folks who depended on going into the mangrove to harvest crabs, etc., did so in such a way that the mangrove was able to continue to provide sustainably or continuously, let me use those words, um, you know, the the resource they went into the mangrove to harvest. What we have what we've seen happening over time is that we are exceeding that balance rather than seeing the fact that our wealth is our nature-bound ecosystem. One of the things we have to begin to do as a people is to begin to reframe what prosperity means, what prosperity looks like, and in that way we can then begin to preserve the balance. And preserving the balance could mean if we have to harvest some trees, we are planting back equally uh the amount we harvest or additional, right? So that you have a better chance of of you know sustaining that resource so that it serves you uh more in the future. If you have to disrupt the mangrove, you are ensuring that you are putting back additional species. The big question is are we are we as individuals seeing the value of that mangrove to our own economic well-being and therefore seeing the need for us to sustain that mangrove so that we can continue to earn, not just in this one instance where we take the tourists on the tour, but for four years, five years, ten years, fifteen years, because I have children I have to send to school, I have to send them to university perhaps, and they will have children which will become my grandchildren. And so we need to start to think like that, to say, okay, one day of putting the boat aside to ensure that I repair this leak or two days is a loss income for one or two days. But if I am ensuring that I have income for 5, 10, 15, 20 years, that's the kind of thinking that will get us back to that balance that we used to have.

SPEAKER_02 31:25

So I know Rashid has been trying to come in.

SPEAKER_00 31:29

Well, it's all because it's very interesting, actually. Um, but I noticed that we're we're we touched on the mangroves, the coral reefs, which are naturally existing nature-based solutions. Um, but I think we also need to look at nature-based solutions as a part of our development um structure and patterns, in which these are intentional, man-made, sort of hybrid-engineered designs, and to also give mention to those nature-based solutions that are not necessarily naturally occurring, but ones that we can intentionally put in place when we so when we're thinking of building an apartment or thinking of building a house with risk in mind, um, we can intentionally put in these features that help us to cope, in which those nature-based solutions look a little different. So they're utilizing those elements that nature naturally provides, um, but putting it together in such a way that we can measure the impacts that they provide. So, for example, there is a nature-based solution that is a bioswale. Um, some professionals would know about it, but for the general public listening, this is something you can research, have a look at, and get deeper understanding. But we know what a gully is and what that looks like. So that is using concrete, um, hard infrastructure to basically channel flood waters to where we want it to go. So whether that's uh detention pond, etc., we know those features. So where a bioswale would compare alongside that is that this is a linear feature. Um, by linear, we mean it looks like a straight line that runs adjacent to, for example, a streetscape. Um, or let me break it down. It runs adjacent to the street, and it's comprised of rocks, vegetation, um, and this the vegetation in this feature, they are plants that have roots that hold water. And then what it does is that it is connected to our hard infrastructure system or our gully system or drainage system, and it would help to also add that capacity to what the drainage network can formally cope with. Um, and so we don't always have to think of where we can replenish nature in its natural state, but then we can think of how we can redesign nature in such a way that it it helps us to cope with some of the problems we're facing.

SPEAKER_02 34:33

So redesign our spaces and utilizing things we can find in nature.

SPEAKER_00 34:38

Things we can find in nature. And then there is, I mean, this may be a discussion for further episodes, but there is a cost benefit to that in that hard infrastructure is expensive and it's not as adaptable as nature. So nature learns as it goes along. And so, for example, if we cut down a forest, when that forest is coming back, it grows back thicker, denser, and it grows back having that experience of being cut. And so it learns. And some of those benefits are what we really want to leverage by looking at nature as a solution rather than something that is meant to cause us harm. And so I think we just need to flip the script and do our research as to how nature can be of benefit to us, even in hazard or disaster events, which will occur from year to year.

SPEAKER_02 35:39

And so, with that wonderful sort of wrapping summary that that Rashini is giving, Ronald, in the few minutes we have left, what would you what would you want to single out as takeaways for listeners from this conversation? Um, if they don't remember anything else, what are say three things that you want uh people to come away from this conversation, ready or not, hurricane come, but we can be more ready and we can understand the natural phenomenon in a better, in a better way. What would be three things that you would want people to just hold at as takeaways?

SPEAKER_01 36:18

Well, I I think I think the three things we will we will single out here is the importance of how you build and where you build, right? I think that's one of the very important takeaways. And you know, you you you reference the proximity to river, uh hillsides, um, and so forth. The second would be the value um inherent in in natural systems, natural capital, green infrastructure, whether it is naturally occurring or whether we we put it in, it brings tremendous value to protecting us as we we get ready to face the hurricane system. So the message there is protect these um natural systems. Um, you know, do not destroy them as we now see them springing back from Hurricane Melissa and nurture them, encourage them because they will be the buffer. Clean them. You know, I saw in some of the coastal areas a lot of debris, household debris in some of the mangroves. Clear those out so they can, you know, they can prosper and protect us as we come close to the hurricane season. I think that would have been a second, a second takeaway. The third is that we need to um disabuse our mind. We need to take out of our mind that you know there's this thing called natural disasters. Why? It tricks our mind into thinking that we're powerless uh to be able to do something about it because nature is doing this to us, right? That we need to change the mindset. So the third thing is we need to understand that it is, you know, it is this is not natural, it's not natural, it is a socially created problem, and if it is socially created, then we can do something about it. Socially created, meaning we are the ones who have created the extent to which we are facing these challenges. So we do have some power, we do have some agency to be able to determine to what extent uh you know the hurricanes, the tropical storms, or any form of natural catastrophe or hazard event will impact us. Those would be my main my main messages from the conversation.

SPEAKER_02 38:47

You know, there's never enough time for good conversations. But we're gonna bring this one to a close and we thank you so very, very, very much, Ronald Jackson. Everyone, you've been listening to this podcast, Resilience Naturally. And in future podcasts, we hope we will be able to share more of the insights of brilliant experts, sons and daughters of the soil, like Ronald Jackson, like Rashini, who are co-host and expert in her own right. We want to thank you, Ronald Jackson, head of disaster risk reduction, recovery and resilience building team, as part of the crisis bureau at the United Nations Development Program in Geneva.

SPEAKER_00 39:34

You can keep up with the Resilience Naturally Podcast and everything the JUSE Project and the EFJ are doing by following the Environmental Foundation of Jamaica on social media. On Facebook and LinkedIn, just search for the Environmental Foundation of Jamaica and on Instagram, it's the ath e underscore EFJ. And you can also visit our website at www.efj.org.jm.

SPEAKER_02 40:05

This podcast is produced by the Environmental Foundation of Jamaica as part of the Jamaica Urban Solutions for the Environment Project, otherwise known as JU. My name is Carol Narcy.

SPEAKER_00 40:18

I'm Rashida Clark Randall. Until next time, take care.