Nature-Based Climate Solutions and Jamaica's Climate Crisis

This episode examines how NbS deliver tangible benefits, including cooling, flood control, and contributions to food and water security. The discussion also incorporates engineering and construction perspectives, highlighting how NbS can complement traditional infrastructure, as well as addressing implementation challenges, scalability, and the limitations of nature-based approaches.

Produced by the Environmental Foundation of Jamaica with funding support from Global Affairs Canada.

This podcast was recorded at Harry J Studio, Kingston, Jamaica. 

Producer: Reneiquca Walker-McKnight 

Transcript

SPEAKER_03 0:04

Hello everyone and welcome to another episode of Resilience Naturally Podcast. The podcast that brings climate change conversations front and center. This podcast is produced by the Environmental Foundation of Jamaica as part of the Jamaica Urban Solutions for the Environment or J Use Project. My name is Carol Narcisse, and I'm the gender and social inclusion specialist with the J Use Project.

SPEAKER_04 0:31

And I'm Renika Walkham at night, special project officer with the J Use Project. Over the last couple of weeks, we've been taking you on a journey exploring issues surrounding how climate change, climate action, and gender intersects. And how working closely with nature can help us solve some of our problems we are facing. Coral noisies? Can you believe we're almost there? We're halfway through season one.

SPEAKER_03 0:56

I cannot. I cannot, because we were just conceptualizing and here we are. But this is how it is. Time moves fast when hopefully you're having fun and great conversations. And we're really pleased that this week's conversation again promises to be informative, eye-opening, and of course, solutions are um oriented because we have really special guests with us this time. Um who is here? You want to introduce our guests?

SPEAKER_04 1:24

Yes, I would love to. So here with us to help us go through the discussion, we have Professor Carol Archer. She is an expert in urban planning policy, and she's also a professor at the University of Technology within the Faculty of Built Environment in the School of Building and Land Management. Also joining Carol, we have Dr. Layton Ellis. He is the regional chair of the Institute of Civil Engineers, America's, and the President elect for the Jamaica Institution of Engineers.

SPEAKER_03 1:56

Welcome so, so very, very uh we're so very happy to have you both join us for the conversation, Carol Leighton. We've taken the listeners so far on a journey that has included what we mean by nature-based solutions, as well as we've talked about food security as one of the issues that climate change is is creating, and therefore how can we how can we um do our backyard gardens and other ways uh uh and and so on. And we've also talked about uh disaster risks and how nature-based solutions help with that. And so we've we've had lots of interesting conversation today's discussion is how practical are what's known as nature-based solutions, really. We want to explore a little deeper as to what we mean by nature-based solutions and then what how how practical are they? So let's let's start off with the how practical, because that's one of the ways people push back, right? We say we're gonna incorporate nature into the solutions design and the solutions functions, and people say, Yeah, yeah, yeah, but you know, that's not practical. Practicality. Why is that important?

SPEAKER_00 3:15

All right, so as a means is that I'm a practicing academic. So I'm not just in the classroom, you know, regurgitating the theory in that sense, but I'm also on the side of doing and building out the solutions of which we speak. The lecture that I did last night to my master's students was on problem solving and decision making. And one of the key things there when you look at what a problem is, it's that there's a desired outcome for which we have not yet attained. And once there's that gap, we have a problem. And so if we're saying we're gonna now bring about solutions, we have to first know what the problem is. And in many cases, we have ill-defined problems.

SPEAKER_03 3:52

Yes.

SPEAKER_00 3:53

And as a result of that, we can't arrive at the solution. And that's the challenge. Or many don't see the problem, hence the solution for them is not applicable.

SPEAKER_03 4:03

Or we think the problem is only what we see occurring at the moment that we're there. Yeah. So the streets are flooded.

SPEAKER_00 4:09

Yes, the symptom.

SPEAKER_03 4:10

Okay. And that's the problem. When in fact, Carol, the problem this this the flooding is a symptom. Right.

SPEAKER_02 4:18

Because there's something else that is that is happening. Yes. So um, so I agree with um Leighton and endorse what he said fully in terms of how we should approach the issues, right? We expect an outcome, the outcome is not achieved. Let us understand why and how, right, and how what what kind of response we now need to put in place for that desired outcome to be achieved. Simple, right? Um, so when we look at uh take for example the heat in the city, because for the past at least three years on record, it's been higher than the year before. It's been higher than and that is scientific, the data is showing. Why? So we're not getting cooler, we're getting higher, hotter, the temperatures are much higher. In certain places in Kingston, when you look at the temperatures in the last two, three years compared to elsewhere in the Caribbean and in some places worldwide, Kingston compared to other cities, much hotter. One of the contributing factors is that we have the types of developments that is being so 20 years ago, 10 years ago, five years ago, these developments were not. We had not the the extent to which we had paved areas, the extent to which we have removed trees in certain areas. Um you can look back at pictures that along um constant spring it is constant spring road, barbecue, massive, massive loss of trees. And it's in those spaces that you find the heat. All right. So nature-based solution, the types of trees that should be planted or replanted, and if we were to do that systematically, strategically, we will see because again the science is there, we're we're in other uh cities where they have strategically replanted trees, and we Paris is a good example.

SPEAKER_03 6:44

So before we before, so we're gonna get into more of the what do we need to do. I want to stay a little bit on the how do we understand what the problem is, right? Um, and so so heat is increasing in our urban spaces, flooding is increasing in our urban spaces, and it's directly tied to how we have changed, how we have developed the things that are being built in the city, and in particular um Kingston, if not the urban spaces throughout Jamaica.

SPEAKER_00 7:17

I I would want to draw physics into this whole equation for me, and and even the whole word that we use is equilibrium.

SPEAKER_03 7:24

Yes.

SPEAKER_00 7:25

So I believe that the world started in equilibrium, right? Everything was in its right place, and then man decided to get involved in the process. And for every action coming to the laws now, there's an equal and opposite reaction. So if I've removed something, it has a direct relationship in that sense with that removal. Or if I add something, or if I add something, right? So if I've removed trees or added something concrete in this case, it's gonna have an effect. So what am I doing to maintain equilibrium? If the world was functioning quite fine before I decided to move this thing, it's not gonna function the same way after. And if I'm aware of this, then I have to find a way now to balance back that equation. And what we're seeing is that there's a lot of removal or addition without a balancing effect of that, and that now leads to what we're seeing now, which is more flooding, more rainfall, more heat, more all the drama that we're seeing now is a direct correlation to man's advancement in quotations in that sense. And we're not maybe policy-wise, maybe action-wise, but there's there's clearly still a gap there that we could we need to look more at.

SPEAKER_02 8:30

And and I want to also pick up late on this whole question of how we define advancement, development. That that is key because you know I shudder the first time I heard Dubai.

SPEAKER_03 8:44

The shuddering was because you were understanding what?

SPEAKER_02 8:47

An assumed definition that Dubai is now the development. Benchmark. The benchmark of development.

SPEAKER_03 8:54

And to come back to Late Nellis' point, um, if you take certain characteristics, increased concrete, higher heights, greater densities, um, more paving of your surfaces, removal of trees, etc. Um, in order to make way for these more, you know, the these physical structures. If you say that that's what constitutes progress and development and so on, you have to think about well, how are you going to keep a balance?

SPEAKER_00 9:24

Right.

SPEAKER_04 9:24

Right. Equilibrium.

SPEAKER_00 9:26

So that's the catch now. And and and it is possible because there are many other cities across the world who have higher rise buildings than we do, have more paved roads than we do, but yet still they seem to have found a balance between the two. Right. So it means that as much as we're moving forward in one area, we're leaving an aspect of that behind. And I think that's where the catch comes in. So as I'm saying, we're looking at the problem through one lens, and that's the issue. So if I've identified that traffic is my issue, so I need more roads, then I've not really identified or analyzed the problem. Could the issue really be that we have too many cars?

SPEAKER_03 10:03

But also, do we understand who is using the road? And if we ask that question, we would understand that it's mostly pedestrians. So perhaps public transportation should be prioritized over private individual car ownership. And Ellis, you were telling us how you are preparing your students for taking a particular approach to decision making, to determining what is the what are the issues, and therefore how do we respond? And so just elaborate a little bit on that because one of the things you said was you take them into the community, you say what you see, and then you say what to them.

SPEAKER_00 10:45

Exactly. So, for example, we're when doing a site visit um or field trip with the students, and one give one particular example. Took them to a land that was recently procured, and the developer wants to do something on the land. Now the land is in a low-line area. It's for me, it's obviously that it floods. But you take the students for them to observe and say, okay, what are they gonna pick up? And then they're now they're looking around, they're walking around on the land and they're observing everything. And you say, All right, so what's our first step? And of course, everybody runs to the calculations. And I'm like, No, you're missing it. The first step is to look at those who have lived in the area around the reconnaissance, find out from those who are here and has the greatest level of historical knowledge who has lived here 50, 60, 70 years, they are the experts in the area, not you who bought the land or the engineer. So now when you invite um little grandma down the road and you ask her about the land, and she says, Oh, this land, it always floods, it floods 20 feet high. You wouldn't have known that because you don't have enough data. We don't have the rainfall data, we don't have all the things that we need to know exactly the issues on the land. So if as an engineer now you're running to design and you go with a hard solution without understanding that you're most likely not gonna solve the problem, or rather, because of an ill-defined problem, you now would have an ill-defined solution. And that's the case that you're gonna see happening there as well.

SPEAKER_03 12:04

And the importance then of talking to different groups of people in the community. So the seniors would be one, they have a certain historical experience and knowledge. Yes, but the youth in in the community as well are probably engaging with that environment in a very different way and have some different stories to tell you.

SPEAKER_01 12:22

Very true.

SPEAKER_03 12:22

Um, women with children and and so on probably are experiencing issues in relation to the topography of the area that you have to bear in mind, right? So so um the idea that people matter, yes, and people's knowledge and experience differ, and that those differences have to be taken account of initiative.

SPEAKER_00 12:47

And I would say even beyond the people.

SPEAKER_03 12:48

Yes.

SPEAKER_00 12:49

For example, if I'm having a coastal project, yes, um, the the the immediate thing to think is okay, they're fishermen, they are um persons who are are living on the land and near beach area. But what about the fish? Giving consultation for who's the voice for the fish? Who's the voice for the coral? Who's gonna give that voice? Because the truth is they're impacted as well. Of course. And so whilst I might, in my idea, oh, a nice beachfront property would be excellent here. What's gonna be the impact if I damage all that coral that's there and build all these hard structures outside? Remove all of that because this is prime land. Yes, and I don't stop to understand the ecosystem, which is the equilibrium, yeah, that everything is interrelated. If I move one thing, it has an adverse or positive effect depending on the movement.

SPEAKER_02 13:38

Unfortunately, yeah, most of these um developments, there are no play areas, and then the local authorities is some something that I know most cities have done. They've said, okay, developer, you can do this, but look, we need um five blocks down, there's a space that we're now going to develop as a park for the green area for the community, and that's what we're talking about in terms of the nature-based solution that allows for that balance. A couple other things to bring to the table.

SPEAKER_00 14:13

It's not too hard to design a green roof, and so let's use Pokemon for example, and this is a study that I want to get one of my um potential PhD students to look at, and because it's a large area. What if we were to turn a lot of these slabed roofs to green roofs? What major impact would that have upon our environment?

SPEAKER_03 14:33

Now, for the listener, what are you meaning by green roof?

SPEAKER_00 14:36

I'll find a nice lush area, and I'm saying I'm gonna put a housing development here. Normally, to do that, I'm gonna remove the greenery to put in this hardcore concrete. But what about the replacement? Talking about at equilibrium. Now I've transported that entire green space to the roof of my building. So from a, if you were going a bird's eye view, it would appear that I still have mostly green on the ground, but it's now at varying elevations. At that elevation, now we can design or engineer the structure to carry the weight of the soil and and the type of plants that you'd have on the roof. Because there are certain types that can work and certain types don't work, some borrow into the concrete. Right. So you have those different types, and as a result of that, that's gonna control the amount of flooding because some of the water is retained at the site. Then I'm also having the green lush on top. Now, what if I also use this coming back to the gardening? What if I now have my roof as a second garden? So, because I don't have any grown areas, which we know most persons don't have anymore, and now on my roof, I have my tomatoes, I have my lettuce, I have the general basic stuff because the price is going up. So now I have multi-purposed my entire structure, which I didn't do before. You have cooled the idea of cool.

SPEAKER_03 15:47

You're adding to a cooler.

SPEAKER_00 15:50

So my my heat gain is significantly reduced. So I don't need as much passive cooling. Well, active cooling in this case, the AC. I can know the building will naturally keep itself cool because of what I've done to the roof. So I am reducing my energy bill. I can build larger windows, and you have other cases where now the walls could be green walls too. Yeah, so the little fern or what some might see as little um grass growing on your wall. Let's just use that for the colloquial language, and that now creates even a nice view because the brain works so well when it sees the natural green, the natural blue, the natural brown. So you get peace when you come home. Yeah, and all of that could be designed. Yes, it's not haphazard.

SPEAKER_02 16:32

No, well, um and that is it's very common. It's really in in terms of academic term, biophilic design, which is a common um architectural engineering, planning approach, which has been explained a little bit.

SPEAKER_04 16:47

What is biophilic?

SPEAKER_02 16:48

It's a it's a concept um coming out of Asia, in particular Singapore, um, given consideration to balancing the the the built and natural environment. So when you are, as Leighton explained, when you are taking away, it has to be uh because a void will create and avoid creates, and that's when you have the problem. But if you can address it through, you know, um roof gardens, where you are able to manage how the water coming from the roof is used, you can use that too to cool the the the the um the building and contribute to our um social um and and physiological and sociological benefits. Then so it it is very widely appreciated and part of the the architectural and engineering training in um throughout Asia, in particular in Singapore. It is something that is uh and it has gone beyond Asia. I've actually experienced and you know, in in Paris when you you go up to um one of the major opera of this, they have roof gardens. Uh and it and address food security because you have all the vegetables and herbs and so forth.

SPEAKER_04 18:11

I'm happy you mentioned that because many of our listeners, whether in residential areas or developers, would probably argue the point of what can we do with the limited space? So I'm happy you have alternative NBS or nature-based solution that could also be a good idea.

SPEAKER_02 18:25

That is the that is the benefit. But I think one of the issues for me is that our how we train people, and especially those generation before that group before, who are not as um exposed, which is why continued professional development is so important.

SPEAKER_03 18:49

But I would I would argue that we have we have a big gap in the preparation of the current generation as well, because we're not seeing the things you're talking about being built into the design of what's going up all around us in our urban.

SPEAKER_02 19:07

Yeah, because again, the whole concept of the what is see as seen as development.

SPEAKER_03 19:14

You're listening to the Resilience Naturally podcast, a podcast that brings climate change conversations front and center. We're talking with Carol Archer, Dr. Carol Archer, and we're also talking with Dr. Leighton Ellis about how we can maintain the equilibrium, how we can maintain the balance by utilizing nature and nature-based solutions in this context. So to come back then to the the the conversation.

SPEAKER_02 19:54

Yes.

SPEAKER_04 19:54

Um, is really why we're seeing how development is taking place. But do you think then it's now for us to shift the mindset and transition it more to thinking of natural elements as natural assets? So these are green infrastructures rather than grey infrastructure that we can utilize for our own benefit.

SPEAKER_02 20:16

Yes, yes. And I think one of the things we need to be very mindful, and certainly I am in terms of you know, when I do my my delivery to the students in terms get them to see the the the varying definition of development and then contextualize it for the the community because for example you will have and let's see I'm working with um a group in in Port Royal, it's it's prime real estate.

SPEAKER_03 20:50

It's not just prime, it's ecologically sensitive real estate. So how you gonna balance those two realities?

SPEAKER_02 20:58

So it has to be culturally, ecologically contextualized.

SPEAKER_03 21:04

So context matters. Context matters, people matter. People and context matter and also future matters. If we're just thinking about what we need now and not think about what the spin-offs might be tomorrow, next year, 50 years, 40 years down the road. And in fact, we're we're we're developing results that are occurring faster and faster. So we're we we have certain kinds of developments and flooding is happening very quickly as a result. Um loss of biodiversity in our urban spaces is actually approaching an urgent point. So how can we if you take the whole thing? How would you if you had to? plan our urban spaces and keep equal equilibrium. What are some nature-based features, solutions that you would want to ensure are designed into these urban spaces?

SPEAKER_00 22:16

So for me, um I've seen cases where persons have built with the tree directly inside of the structure. So rather than feeling the need that I have to cut down the tree, I've now decided that I need to work with the tree. And so one of the things I would want to see is where we're trying our our utmost best to work with rather than against let's take Constant I'm gonna take a particular road, Constant Spring Road.

SPEAKER_03 22:41

Yeah. Having widened it, several properties on one side of that road now flood.

SPEAKER_00 22:47

Yes.

SPEAKER_03 22:48

Right? Including schools and and so on. How could we retrofit in in a situation like that to mitigate that flooding using a nature-based approach.

SPEAKER_00 23:02

Alright so now we're talking about swales possibly as another option in that sense, right? So that's like an earthen gully that allows the water to filter through the soil rather than run on the surface. Right now one could argue that our drains are our roads. And why we could argue that because you don't see drains besides the road. In most other countries you will find that there's a drainage path for the water to flow. Another way would be to do earthen swales. So you have the soil but of course we need the bioswales we need to also have more trees to help absorb a lot more moisture from the from the earth in that sense and you do have some that absorb more than others. So we just need to figure out that one and put those be cognizant of the ones where in terms of the root network and how they impact the structures that are in close proximity because if we put in certain trees like a nice massive Aki tree that's gonna dig up the whole road and everything around it. So we have to and this is known information none of this is a surprise to us we have ecologists we have agriculturists we have all these persons we notice so we just ask the right people the right questions one of the things that I would say as a problem is that we are trained in silos. So engineers are trained by engineers sociologists are by themselves everybody's in a department all by themselves but our problems are interdisciplinary and and human and humanity doesn't care what your gender or your your whole training is it's a problem for everyone.

SPEAKER_02 24:30

So we need all hands on deck to come up with a right solution this is what had happened in Medellin where the the the folks said look you know let that you know things can change this is when you know medaiin was the murder capital of the world yeah um similar things occurred in Johannesburg right high crime rate areas of the city run down but a group of people came together and said you know we can do things differently what vision you have to be purposeful and intentional we need to ensure that the space where we live that the voices of the people are adequately reflected before we in the design and then share that vision.

SPEAKER_03 25:18

Yes before we we started the conversation on on on air you gave us an example of what has been done in a certain part of of Queens New York which would be which to my mind is an example of how you take a space it's having certain issues and problems you reimagine it re-en you you envision it differently including bringing nature back into it and having certain kinds of results.

SPEAKER_04 25:54

So tell the story tell the example before Miss Archer tells the story I wanted to add that the way she explained it as well it was more so of not having isolated solutions that integrated system which I really appreciate.

SPEAKER_02 26:09

Right so it it happened this is a section of Brooklyn um Canarse near the area referred to as Jamaica Bay in um New York New York City and Hurricane Sandy destroyed a significant part of that um section of Brooklyn and so they both this that this is the federal level so the flesh the feds had to come in to you know normally emergency disaster they provide the funding but it required the city through the various departments but leading it was the New York Parks department at the time headed by um uh someone who I'm quite familiar with who is a trained urban planner landscape architect and such and they they they met with the community they saw what was happening as a result and they knew that this was not a one-off given the climate change impact it will continue so they came together the engineers the architect the planners residents and they envisioned yes right um and they brought these various nature based solutions so you had the biosrails you had the rain gardens what does what's that for those who are listening so the rain gardens um it's similar to sort of a bioswale but it's a um it collects the water and it the water is then allowed to percolate into the drip but at a plants and rocks and rocks and use very beautiful so you you're walking but you you know you wouldn't know thankfully the parks department actually put up a sign this is a rain garden um do not throw garbage here you know clear signage um that explains the importance of rain garden and how it contributes to the biodiversity the ecosystem of the city and so there's a series of rain gardens that lead into um a sort of a uh a drain a catchment area and then that floods to the end near Jamaica Bay they have parks and the parks um Canarsi Park there is Chirley Chisholm parks and these parks are designed as water catchment area that then allows the water to go into um Jamaica Bay so you have um where they would have it it looks like a um a pond where you can do little row you know rowboat on and that sort of thing but it's actually um a water catchment it's lower than the the rest of the land but because it pulls the water from the area that is normally flooded the water is retained and then percolates out to sea at a rate that you know control that is controlled. Now one of the problems it's also interesting that um and the the the the literature speaks to it when you have these nature based solutions you also have some nature based problems so in um in cities like Shanghai where you have the sponge city where we use nature based you have mosquitoes but in New York what they've done is the animals the the insects and so that are there help to balance out you know which again someone thought about somebody thought about what kinds of trees plants insects are we trying to uh reintroduce etc so it's a thought out it is intentional yeah for me it was an engineered and and engineered yeah and then so you set the intention and then you use the science yeah to um effect the the I just wanted to add for listeners so placing nature based solutions strategically in different spots holistically the impacts that it creates so you have the bioswell here you have the rain garden here you have the pond holistically the the impact is greater than if you should have one solution in one spot one spot and they are connected so you can see for me it it is just because not only you have and you see the beauty and of course you know as Leyton had just mentioned psychologically the the impact that you have when you when you're out in nature it is it is and I can well documented it is it coming well known very well known so you you're walking and you're seeing the and oh why is it that they have all these beautiful flowers all over it's intentional these are rain gods and they are connecting and it goes into the park and they you it's also um because how it was done with signage and um you know information interestingly enough you do not see garbage being disposed and again the science speaks to it if you have gardens if you have areas that are so um designed and maintained it is highly unlikely that people will dispose of their garbage there.

SPEAKER_00 31:29

And and I think what ties to that is the buy-in you see when you just bring me a solution yes which I do not fully understand nor was I involved in the process I will abuse it. Yes anytime and that's the definition of abuse if you don't know the purpose for which something was designed up abuse is inevitable. So you have to know why something is there and how it influences my life and then know I'm now shared in the buy-in yes to what this thing is going to be bringing to me and it may be different to everyone but there's some intrinsic value that I get from it and as a result I will now treat it in a particular way. So we spoke in on the co-benefits of the solution but I wanted to understand what's the value proposition what's the cost of these interventions because many would ask yes we have them but how would we maintain them the cost of maintenance compared to like a green infrastructure like a drainage system that you would normally have what's what would it specific cost per se but but if we were to do a comparison now how a project ought to be developed you look at the cost versus the benefits that one could derive from it some benefits are tangible easily quantifiable and some are non-tangible and or intangible and those are now more on the social side of things. So for example doing the garden if you're gonna look at the direct tangible one it's to say all right how much did it cost me and how much it's gonna cost me to physically hire someone to go and maintain it. But intangible maybe now I reduce stress which now would have translated into my health sector I may have reduced crime which now transfer into another sector. So so if I'm not aware and I'm I won't be aware unless I bring the other stakeholders in. So if you're only talking to engineers we're gonna talk from the engineering standpoint and we're gonna give the hard facts which is this how much it costs this is what a direct benefit is but when I bring the social scientists now I get a very different perspective as to the whole thing. So it depends on who you're asking. So my thing for that would be bring all the right people to the table and now we get the true benefit that could be derived from the proposed solution at that point.

SPEAKER_03 33:31

And so from a policy perspective now what are some of the policy gaps that we currently have or some of the policy needs that we have that would accelerate the adoption of nature based approaches alongside the other known and and tried approaches?

SPEAKER_02 33:49

Well I can speak definitively to um for example the urban renewal policy I was I participated in that the the um IDB had you know provided funding and I was one of the consultants to prepare because we Jamaica well it's in the draft stage we just need to move it to where it is now um enforceable fundable and all of that and of course the key to that policy is to ensure that um nature based solution is featured prominently especially in the infrastructure social infrastructure the physical infrastructure I'm hoping that um as we are talking about rebuilding our cities those that have been it in in um increasingly affected by Melissa and those that are you know in need of urban renewal that the principle or if not the policy in itself because the policy was informed by the principles of universal urban design um engaging universal urban design universal urban design um speak to the notion that as we design our urban space it must give consideration to all everyone who everyone who make sure it's inclusive and accessible. Yes so it has to give consideration who are the residents um persons who are disabled how they you know children um how this would impact them so where it is placed how it is placed what it's what's used in the design those considerations are taken on board we have a construction policy or construction industrial policy of Jamaica one was drafted before it was needed of revision and we're now in that process so I currently still serve on the the steering committee of that whole movement.

SPEAKER_00 35:45

So it's it's really being developed right now so now it's ideal because with all of the disasters that we've had all that's been filtered in as to part of the transformation with that document it does almost sometimes feel like a catch-all because the one or the sector that truly influences the end process would be the construction sector right so we have the design and the planning that now feeds into the execution which is a build out and now everyone has to suffer through what we have built. So we we are at a phase where now we can't we're able to catch that. Now whilst it was mentioned before that we have we don't want to look at it from a projectized standpoint but when we look at it from a solution oriented aspect my industry really works project to project it's a very projectized industry. If there are no projects we have no work we have no money there's nothing happening so it's all about projects. So from that level we have a lot of control one of the strategies with one of the procurement approaches we use is what we call fitic documents that's what we use as a document for deciding what the parties are for the conditions of the movement between the client which meaning government in this case or the the the contractor there is a suite aspect to that that's called a PSM the project sustainability management aspect which I'm the only one that talks about this regionally but but but it is there. And what that looks at are the three arms of sustainability which is the environmental the economic and of course the social aspect of it so built into that before the project starts you look at all these parameters and the benefits that could be extracted long before you even start.

SPEAKER_03 37:20

Which policy then would would ensure that say the construction policy that things like green roofs green buildings pocket parks but you know building amenity as well as just structure right so you're doing structures but you also have to think of amenities and amenities that are specific to the development but also perhaps amenities that would be accessible to the wider community.

SPEAKER_02 37:47

Does that get into that it would also it ought to be captured in the development orders as well so if you look at the policy statements before you start billing before yes so those policies the the development orders they they guide the development to take place in a particular area the local planning area for that parish yes and it is a um uh a legislative document based on the Town and Country Planning Act the piece of legislation that says east parish must determine how development is taking place in that area right and it's typically broader because it might say how many habitable rooms you may have in that area but it may not specialize or specify how and if we need a green roof or another green roof right and so right it doesn't just specifically so that is where now the community development plans which we don't have that's what I'm saying that's why the construction is so broad because we realize that there are so many gaps.

SPEAKER_00 38:56

And so now this one is trying to tie in the existing framework and now add it to that framework in that sense.

SPEAKER_03 39:02

So will there be any con cons is there a consultation process that oh yes it's already it is and that is exactly what's happening right now.

SPEAKER_00 39:10

So there have been those in Montego Bay in Kingston and I think somewhere in the south as well.

SPEAKER_03 39:15

Which entity is responsible for the construction policy? MegJC so that's that's the the Ministry of economic growth and job creation always one wishes one had has more time for for for the conversations um so far this one has covered a quite a wide ranging um ground uh in which we have talked a bit about some of the types of nature-based solutions so you've heard mention of green roofs you've heard mention of green walls buildings we've heard mention of rain gardens and bioswales and retention ponds and parks and pocket parks and intentionally designing spaces so that you bring back um a diversity of life form you know insect life plant life etc because all of that improves our collective well-being yes as we wrap the conversation I want to ask each of you folks have heard a lot in this conversation if there's three things you want them to leave this discussion bearing in mind and remembering what would what would those three takeaways be for you people matter and we have to give centrality to how people use the space and design culturally socially economically relevant to the to the people you can have and they talk about say the 15 minutes or the 10 minute city so I can leave my house um access by walking um healthcare park recreation um commercial in a manner that gives based on the you know the whole principle of universal design that I talked about that you know my my psychosocial emotional and and and physical well being is considered and I can I can access that readily so it's not where I'm if I I can sleep one place so that's residential and I have to get in my car and drive you know 10 miles to access the beach or or a recreational facility. The consideration is given to the total so designing our urban spaces with the whole human being born in mind and the life cycle because yes you're talking people are different ages different genders different life responsibilities that have to be factored in in how we're gonna design the spaces etc etc yeah so okay people matter important um uh point is there any other one that you would and how we how we design it how we design and we design not just for today yes we have to design way normally we think about what would this place look like for the next generation and late nails all right so for me I I'll try and throw a couple words now I one of my favorite books is without vision the people perish right and it also suggests that you should write the vision and make it plain now I think in in our nation and globally but let's focus on Jamaica I think that we we don't have the vision or rather we have been adopting the visions of others and trying to copy paste them here.

SPEAKER_00 42:55

And that's a big problem. So I could either sit and look at it as a national issue or I much prefer localizing where I have some control. So my recommendation would be that persons look within their community could be my street it could be my my my my wider community where there may be a few more avenues or a development and we sit together as the people who are experiencing the issue and write out a vision that we want for that space. And having done so get as many stakeholders as we can involve in the process hear all the views and then now we work that vision. Yeah now the next step in that process would be education. So now that I have a vision the next step would be education. So I may have a vision but I don't have the knowledge to execute that vision. So I wanted two ways I can acquire that knowledge myself which may take me a long time or I can import it. So I can find those who have that knowledge that may share the values that I do and may be willing to do it for free if I don't have the money because others may have that same philosophy that I have and they'll come and be a part of it. They know the steps involved in the process they want to see the change That I'm desirous of the city. So partnerships.

SPEAKER_03 44:03

Communities partnering with stakeholders.

SPEAKER_00 44:06

Then removed from the next word which I was talking about was a silo. Because once I've done that, then I've now eliminated the silo. Because now I brought all the key persons to the table. And now together we are trying to enact this vision. And in many cases, I truly believe it's not as expensive as I was thinking it is. It's much cheaper than we think it is. If we're all involved in the process. Then now the last word that I would want to come back with is equilibrium. Because I am a firm believer that the whole story started one way. And if we are wise, we would try to replicate what was originally here as far as it's possible. Yes, we have done a lot of foolishness. But there are ways that we could try and reverse the order in that sense. Or find a way where we could work in harmony with what we call now development in the context of what's needed. Because we need housing, we need roads, we need all these things. We're not gonna act as though we want everybody walking up and down now. We're not going back to that. But there is a way that we could now work in harmony with what we need to achieve now, along with nature and now bring about a true solution to the problems that we're experiencing. And I think we have the collective wisdom locally. Yes, getting some international experience is also nice, but I do believe the wisdom exists locally, and it may not necessarily reside just in the classroom. And so we may have to go out to our regular citizenry and ask them how we would go about solving this. I think one of the brightest amongst us are actually children.

SPEAKER_03 45:35

This is a wonderful note on which to end this conversation that the vision that we're seeking is closer than we think, but people matter and understanding and working towards keeping balance and equilibrium between the things we're doing as humans, either taking out of our environment or putting into our environment that are or can cause us challenges. But if we think equilibrium, if we think nature, what was there, how do we keep that balance? That that future is closer than we think, with lots of co-benefits. And so, Ren, just to remind those who have been with us in this conversation listening, who have been our guests.

SPEAKER_04 46:19

Okay, our guests have been Carol Archer, Professor Carol Archer, that is, an expert in urban planning and policy, as well as a professor at the University of Technology in the Built Environment faculty, as well as Dr. Layton Ellis. He's from the Jamaica Institute of Engineers, as well as the regional chair of institution of civil engineer. Am I right, Mr. Ellis?

SPEAKER_03 46:46

Yes.

SPEAKER_04 46:47

Americans? Okay.

SPEAKER_03 46:48

So regional chair and president-elect of the Jamaica Institution of Engineers. So we're looking forward to bigger, better things emerging from your respective fields. We thank you so very, very much for taking the time and joining us for this conversation. And so, everyone, you've been listening to another episode of Resilience Naturally Podcast, a podcast produced by the Environmental Foundation of Jamaica as part of the Jamaica Urban Solution for the Environment Project, otherwise known as the J Use Project. I'm Carol Narcis.

SPEAKER_04 47:25

And I'm Renika Walcam at night, and you can keep up with the Resilience Naturally Podcast and everything the J Use Project and the EFJ are doing by following the Environmental Foundation of Jamaica on social media, on Facebook, and LinkedIn. Just search for Environmental Foundation of Jamaica and on Instagram, it's the underscore EFJ. That's the underscore EFJ and visit our website at www.efj.org.jm. Until next time. Thank you.

SPEAKER_03 47:59

Take care, everybody.