Safegaurding Jamaica's Biodiversity for a Climate-Resilient Future

This episode reflects on Jamaica’s natural heritage, ecosystems, and biodiversity by examining how development has transformed the landscapes over time. It explores the implications of biodiversity loss for livelihoods and culture while highlighting the urgent need to protect and restore the remaining natural ecosystems for current and future generations.

Produced by the Environmental Foundation of Jamaica with funding support from Global Affairs Canada.

This podcast was recorded at Harry J Studio, Kingston, Jamaica. 

Producer: Reneiquca Walker-McKnight 

Transcript

SPEAKER_04 0:06

Hello and welcome to another episode of the Resilience Naturally Podcast, where we dissect issues about environmental sustainability and climate change and how you can help to make a difference in these areas. The podcast is produced by the Environmental Foundation of Jamaica as part of the Jamaica Urban Solutions for the Environment or J Use Project. My name is Carol Narcis, and I'm the gender and social inclusion specialist with the J Use Project. And with me for this episode is Renika Welcome at night.

SPEAKER_01 0:42

And I am the special project officer on the J Use Project. And in this episode, we will be taking a more forward-looking approach where we will be talking about the old-time Jamaica from nature perspective. So, in a holistic context, the biodiversity of the island while examining how development and urbanization has transformed the landscape.

SPEAKER_04 1:05

That's right, Ren. Just to share a little bit of background information. When you look in, you know, you search for words like biodiversity Jamaica, you will find information like Jamaica is a global biodiversity hotspot. And uh the information says that we rank fifth in the world for endemic species, which means it's species of plants, animals, etc., which aren't found anywhere else. Our island is home, we are told, to 82 different endemic ferns, 60 orchid species found nowhere else, 22 types of bromeliads that are found nowhere else, 830 plus flowering plants that don't exist anywhere else, 28 species of birds that are unique to us, uh reptiles, um frogs and snails, and and so on. And so to help us to learn more about this very interesting world, this natural world of ours, what's in it, um, how it helps us, what's what's how it has changed over time, and what we all can do, you and I, every single person who is listening, what we can do to help to protect it, preserve it, um, encourage it, especially those of us who live in the towns and cities. And so joining us for this discussion is Dr. Melissa Kemp, and we really are very excited to have Dr. Kemp because you know, sometimes if you're in the right place at the right time, magic happens, right? And so uh Dr. Kemp um is conservation paleobiologist and evolutionary biologist. She's an associate professor in the Department of Integrative Biology at the University of Texas at Austin. And we just happened to cross paths with her, said to her, We're doing this podcast, will you join? She said, Of course. And so here we are. We also have as our guest Patrick Lewis. Mr. Patrick Lewis is a botanist, and he's the former curator of the University of the West Indies Herbarium at Mona, um, at the Mona Campus campus. And as well, those of you who are on social media, you will have met Roosters World, because that's the handle that uh he goes by. Damien White, uh, he's an assistant lecturer at the University of the West Indies, and by profession, he's a terrestrial biologist. Welcome to the podcast Resilience Naturally, uh, everyone. Thank you.

SPEAKER_00 3:55

Thank you.

SPEAKER_04 3:56

Can I start with you, Dr. Kemp? How long have you been doing work in Jamaica? What's a paleobiologist and an evolutionary biologist?

SPEAKER_00 4:07

Yes. Well, thank you first of all for having me. Um I've been working in Jamaica since 2021, but I've been working in the Caribbean more broadly uh since 2010, uh, when I started graduate studies. Um and I am a paleobiologist, um, and I can go into more particulars about the type of paleobiology I do because it's a subfield called conservation paleobiology. But uh backing up, uh paleobiology is a study of ancient living systems, uh, particularly fossils. So fossils are the remains of ancient organisms. Sometimes it is the actual bones or um shells of those organisms that have been modified. Um they go through a process called mineralization, so they turn into stone, and therefore we have preservation of them. Um more recent fossils haven't always gone through that process, so they still have some of their natural bone from when the organism was alive. Um, but they can also be traces of an organism. So some really famous examples of trace foot trace fossils are like footsteps and things like that. But these fossils allow you to understand what forms lived in the past, and that is what my research has focused on.

SPEAKER_04 5:13

And you know, we we the what existed in the past is is is so important for us to know, to be aware of. Absolutely.

SPEAKER_00 5:23

Why? Yeah, so uh understanding the past helps us contextualize the present and prepare for the future, and that is what the field of conservation paleobiology is um really trying to tackle. So conservation paleobiology uses a fossil record and other types of data that are often referred to as geohistorical records, so geological records that tell us about the history of the earth. This not only includes fossils, it also may include archaeological data, which is distinct from paleontology because it's uh ancient, it's information about ancient human societies, um, but that does tell you about how humans interact with the environment. But then there are also um data such as sphaleothems, which are formations that you find in caves, uh tree rings, um, and other types of data that allow you to reconstruct not only the organisms that have lived in the environment in the past, but also the climate. So we utilize all of that data to get a picture of the past. It can provide something called a baseline, which is a historical reference of what biodiversity at a place looked like um before humans arrived or at early stage of human occupation or during a particular climate regime, and then we can collect data serially at the same place or a few places and look at how species are responding to changes in their environment through time.

SPEAKER_04 6:38

Are you able to determine the pace at which species loss, for example, is occurring?

SPEAKER_00 6:45

Correct. Yes, and that's something that we've been very interested in, particularly with the Caribbean. So we can not only figure out the pace of it, um, but potentially the causes of it. And then that is really important when thinking about conservation and the species that we still have today. Another thing that we can do with this type of work is look at species who persist during all these uh changes that are happening. So you can have two species that maybe look very similar to one another, but one survives, one goes extinct. And you can start to ask why, what may be different about them? Maybe one is adapting to these new changes, maybe one is doing really well in an environment dominated by humans compared to the other one. So um by having this long-term perspective on how species are responding to changing environments, we can better plan conservation efforts for species who are in um who are facing uh threats today, but also start to model how they might respond in the future as climate changes continue, as well as um different human impacts increase because some of the climate changes that we've experienced in the past, particularly the recent past, are things that we may expect to see in the future.

SPEAKER_04 7:52

And so, of course, it it also helps us to learn enough to know how we as humans might want to modify our behavior. Exactly, yes. Um so that we are less harmful uh or less destructive of the various species. You before we started the recording of the podcast, you were saying you've worked in Westmoreland a lot.

SPEAKER_00 8:16

Yes, yes. So I actually got uh my start in Jamaica in Westmoreland, and something that's been really important to my research, and I would argue to the field of conservation paleobiology, is to not just do your work in isolation. Um, sometimes you think of scientists as people in the lab, and then they communicate to other scientists. But because this work is supposed to be applied to actual ecosystems, it is extremely important that we're talking to various stakeholders. So the work that I first started in Jamaica actually wasn't uh the scientific research component of my group, it was the educational outreach component. Um in 2000 or in 2021, um, a number of students from my university and I received a fellowship from our university to support educational programming in Jamaica. And we partnered with a uh nonprofit in Negril, the Negril Education Environment Trust, to develop STEM camps for primary school children with a focus on science, technology, engineering, and mathematics, but particularly biodiversity. Uh, the goal being to um increase awareness of the environment in Jamaica, uh, more appreciation of the environment, the you know, great endemicity that you have in Jamaica to really empower young students to become um stewards of their environment here. Um, because I think it's really important that we start that process young uh very early.

SPEAKER_04 9:33

You know, Damien White, you have an approach to educating and engaging the public that's really been very important, very, very effective. Um, talk to us a little bit what's a terrestrial biologist, and why do you expend so much effort in trying to help people to learn about uh flora and fauna?

SPEAKER_02 9:56

So a terrestrial biologist, I just start off. Um most people are talking here know about marine biologists, the people in the water. Yes. And now you have people that are on land. And I'm one of the land-based biologists to make it easier.

SPEAKER_04 10:11

Yes.

SPEAKER_02 10:12

So in general, I do um I'm an ecologist, meaning I study the plants, the animals, how they interact. I save the crocodile, I look for the iguana, I look for the lizard, you name it.

SPEAKER_06 10:24

Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_02 10:24

So one of the reasons why I do a lot of stuff in trying to educate the people is that my grandfather, while growing up, I would normally spend a lot of my holidays with my grandparents. And one of the things that I learned, if you want people to value something or to find it important, they have to get information about it. And um, I believe in providing information so people know what we have, then people start putting value to what is there and we start caring. And then after a while, I had to learn now how to change the the information of how we are thought in an academic setting and try and make it simple for everybody to understand. So it started there, and then people start asking questions, and then I find out that there's a lot of things that we believe everybody know that people don't know. This is true. And before you go out there and say that people don't value something, don't love the environment, do they know um why why plants is important, why this list that we have is important? And I believe in finding a way of bringing this information out that you bring a change to the public. And the last one and why I'm doing it, we were working on this project where we're asking students in some of the rural areas who's a scientist, and many other people answer was very interesting. You heard I was somebody in a lab coat, or it was uh non-people looking like us, and I thought that you know, show you know, just highlighting the work that we do, show people that you have scientists out there that is like you, out there doing the job, um, that you could aspire to be one. So I use the media to showcase that and also to put a value to what we have here.

SPEAKER_04 12:21

Let me let me go to to Patrick Lewis. Um, Mr. Lewis, you're a botanist, so as um uh Damien and and Melissa have helped us to understand what they do, what do botanists do? And you were the former curator of the herbarium at the University of the West Indies, Mona. And for many people, what's a herbarium?

SPEAKER_03 12:46

Well, first let me start by saying what a botanist is. Yes. Most people know botanists is a plant scientist, and there are various different types of botanists. Um plant breeders who develop new varieties are botanists, there are botanists who do natural products research, yeah, botanists who are taxonomists who study how different plants are related to one another. Well, I at the University of the Western is herbarium. I was a plant taxonomist basically. So I was in charge of the herbirum that is in managing the herbarium, collecting specimens to put into the herbarium. A herbirum is a collection of pressed, dried specimens of plants which are mounted on archival paper, and there's an identification to the specimen. So you'll have the botanic name, if there's a common name, where it was collected, who collected it, and the date it was collected, and so on, and also any interesting information that you might collect in the field about the plant, or any special feature that will change on the specimen that uh when it's dried. So in the plant might have a pink flower, but when it's dried, it might be light gray, it might turn to gray or color, it might turn brown or whatever. So that's basically an herbial specimen. So we had collections of about 36,500 specimens at the U. Herbium. And um the collection was mainly Jamaican specimens, but we also had collections from outside of Jamaica, so other Caribbean islands, and even specimens from North America, Honduras, and a couple of other years in the Caribbean. The purpose of the Uherbury, one of the main uses made of it was for plant identification purposes, purposes. So people from chemistry department might go out and collect specimens and want to do natural products analysis of it, or they need to know what the plant is, or they may want to go and collect a particular species, but they don't know to identify. So you call on the herbarium curator, somebody else who knows the plant. And uh also as the as curator there, I was also responsible for helping with some education in terms of dealing with lab courses that involve plants and so on. So basically, herbariums that's a place where pressed dried specimens of plants are kept. Um and it's supposed to be in the indefinite collection, that's the aim. So there are herbia that have been around for about 500 years.

SPEAKER_04 15:28

The largest herbium in the world is actually the one at Q Q Garden in the U.S.

SPEAKER_03 15:38

Well, yeah. I visited it in 2018, and they have the largest herbarium. They have collections from all over the world, and they have about more well, I don't know exactly, but it's in the millions.

SPEAKER_01 15:49

So for Dr. Kemp, I wanted to ask since you are doing an educational outreach with the kids, um, to understand what is the Jamaica biodiversity landscape and how it was before, I want to understand from a long-term perspective, how has Jamaica's biodiversity evolved based on your research?

SPEAKER_00 16:10

So that's a great question. Um, and as Carol said earlier, um, Jamaica is a biodiversity hotspot. There are so many species that are only found here today. But if you look at the past, then you don't even have to go that far into the past. You don't have to go in millions of years. You can just go 1,000, 2,000 years ago. You can see that today's biodiversity in Jamaica, as well as throughout the Caribbean, is just a subset of what used to be here. In other parts of the Caribbean as well, there were more reptile species, more of everything, really. Um, so some of the most interesting species that used to live in Jamaica until the recent um past was a monkey. There used to be a monkey um in Jamaica. Um it's called Xenarthrix McGregor, I believe. Um, and then there also was a uh a type of ibis, a very large bird. I don't remember the estimates for body size of this bird, but um, based on the anatomy of the bones found in the wing, they believe that this bird uses wings as clubs, which is quite amazing. Um in other parts of the Caribbean, there were um sloths uh throughout. Jamaica did not have a um lineage of sloths based on what we currently know from the fossil record. But I think the fact that there are certain species you find um in Jamaica or certain lineages, I should say, that you find in Jamaica that you don't find elsewhere, and certain lineages that you find elsewhere in the Caribbean, but not Jamaica, also points to the uniqueness of Jamaica from not only a biological perspective, but a geological perspective. So Jamaica was submerged underwater for periods of time when other islands in the Caribbean were emergent, meaning those islands were colonized first and they had more time to generate biodiversity. Um, Jamaica came out a little bit later, but even though um it didn't have the head start some of these other islands had, it still has amazing biodiversity. Um, a really interesting example is that of the Celestis genus of lizards. So you may have heard of these referred to as galley wasps. Yeah, so um there's actually been some really interesting work um on them recently. A paper came out um last year, two years ago, I think, um, where they did some genetic analyses of some of these specimens that are in museums across the world. And uh previously there, you know, I think were maybe nine species, and now data suggests that there are 14 species, and those species are only found in Jamaica. This whole group is endemic to Jamaica, which is quite amazing.

SPEAKER_04 18:29

When I was growing up, golly wasps or ghollywasps were common things, right? In the city. Um we would always see them. No, we weren't afraid of them at all. I well, I was one of those out indoor kind of thing. Um but but they were common. Right. Uh um fairly easy to spot and see and so on. Damien Wright, they're they're rarer now, uh as far as I can tell, unless it's because I'm older and I'm not out there out in the, you know, outdoors as much as the children might be. But am I correct? Is I are species like the gollywasps uh in the urban space um fewer?

SPEAKER_02 19:15

Yes, you um species like the the gallows and our amoeba, the one that we call ground lizard, which is one of the easier ones that most um Jamaicans can talk about in the urban area.

SPEAKER_04 19:30

Well, they're all in my backyard, right?

SPEAKER_02 19:34

But interestingly, our amoeba or ground lizard is um is endemic and it's now on the IUC and threatened species. Yeah, and one of the things about our ground lizard is that it likes to um to borrow a little ground, it does not like hard surfaces. So in in urban areas now where we are um converting a lot of the area um concrete or hard surfaces like um asphalt. Yes, and another thing that we also add to while you're not seeing um the galley was as much as you're talking, even though they're a bit secretive compared to the ground lizard, is that there is a number of animals that we have as pets and we forget about them, such as the cats, the mongoose, who was brought in here during the 1800s, who are doing pretty good in urban areas, eat a lot of our native animals and put several of them, umes that are not got extinct on the brink of extinction in Jamaica and the wider Caribbean. So our our cats, chickens that running up and down, uh mongoose have played a role in getting several of our enemy creatures, including the Celestos that have been doing a hard, hard job in telling people that it is a lizard, it is not poisonous, it won't sting you, and if it does bite, you're not gonna die before it's there's a lot of myths here about it.

SPEAKER_04 21:06

But people tell you that they run you down, and some people are afraid of them because they say, Oh, they'll chase after you.

SPEAKER_02 21:13

Yes, our folklore have made a lot of people afraid of most of our um, I should say, reptiles. Yes, so people still believe that the ghaliwas um will sting, yes, and some people still believe that the ground lizard will call all its friends and decide to run down your humans.

SPEAKER_04 21:35

And people think that our snakes are poisonous, right? Um, talk to us about that.

SPEAKER_02 21:41

Well, in the last well, I would say the last month, um there's have been a lot of snake activities who have been getting reports.

SPEAKER_04 21:50

Is that because we have a hurricane?

SPEAKER_02 21:53

No, it is because it's the nice season where majority of them are breeding season. So we have about um, if I remember, between eight and nine species of snake, our biggest is the Jamaica ball, or what we call yellow snake. Um they can get up above eight feet or more, and a number of people from the see a snake, the first thing that comes to mind, it is going to sting or it's gonna kill you, and because of that, a number of our snakes have been persecuted. I should state now that all our snakes are endemic.

SPEAKER_04 22:30

All our snakes, yeah, endemic meaningful nowhere else in the world, and all of them are not the none none is poisonous, none is not none is poisonous, none is seeking to get you, none is going to harm you in any way.

SPEAKER_02 22:45

They are just trying to be alive, they are scared of humans, they don't want to be harassed. So we normally ask people if you see them in the forest in a tree, let the snake be. It's not really troubling you. However, if it has to be moved, call the experts. Please don't chop, don't show bleach, don't harm them. I mean, most of these snakes that we have, yes, um, the numbers are low because of um some of the animals like the mongoose, and even our cats that have been um doing a what I would say a pretty bad job. Yeah, but in the sense of the job they are doing good, but from the biology side, it's it's a very bad job, and they're killing off a lot of our snakes. And our snakes, we have um the yellow snake, which is uh uh bulk constrictor, and we have a smaller one, the trophy dofis that we call the thunder snakes. We have about two species of them. Um they just go in in the garden looking for lizards and small frogs, and they won't harm you.

SPEAKER_04 23:54

So to so to to take that point, uh for a lot of people, the question they have in their heads is the how does this all help us really? I mean, what's the point of uh of snakes and bats and lizards and all of these things? Really and truly, let's just pave everywhere and build everywhere and let's be gone with them. What do they do that is beneficial?

SPEAKER_02 24:18

So let's start with the the snake that we that a number of people uh we talk about our um Jamaican boar. So the the Jamaican boar is one of the largest, what should say, native land animal that we have. Um where they compare it to like maybe the crocodile, and they and they're also a predator. And predators play a very important role in an ecosystem, meaning that they keep several other species in check. So imagine you have um you're in a office, you have one colleague that comes in there with a flu. After a while, if that person is there, everybody catches it. In nature, we have things like that. So with the bats, um, the snake would normally catch the bat that is sick compared to the healthy ones. So they play a very important role in keeping the ecosystem in check. Now, somebody might ask, yeah, get rid of the snakes. And get rid of the snake. If you think about an ecosystem, it's like an engine. You might go in an engine and take off one screw, the engine still working. But after an hour, that engine might just stop working. You might take another screw off, it stops working the same time. Now, when you go into the ecosystem of life and you start taking out predators or predators or animals that are playing a role in the ecosystem, you might not see the impact of what you do today. But give it maybe a couple of days, a couple of weeks, or a couple of years, it will show up. Some of these animals we are not even sure right now all the role that they play because when we do studies, we're taking a snapshot of what's going on in the environment at the moment. So snakes play a role. Crocodiles that people don't like, they they're like engineers in a wetland. Wetland is what we look at to protect our coast during the hurricanes, or when a lot of water comes in the wetland hole, hold the water like a sponge and take time releasing it so the place don't flood, and that wetland also provides food for us. It also provides a nursery for fish. Now, crocodiles now they go in there, and while a lot of people don't know, they dig and form these water channels. Wetlands need water like how our body needs blood. So if you don't have water flowing through it, then the wetland will die. During the dry season, some of these holes that the crocodile engineer and dig provide a home for fish, crab, source of birds for all sorts of animals. Things that we humans indirectly depend on. So I'm just giving you two examples of two animals that that might not be charismatistic or look cute to um a number of people, but they play a very important role in our ecosystem.

SPEAKER_04 27:22

Thank you for that.

SPEAKER_01 27:23

So, as you stated, the interconnected net with connectedness with the human and the the animals overall, it's rich and we have to preserve that at all costs. Um, Mr. Lewis, I wanted to touch base with you regards. So we've talked about the animals, we also want to hear about the plants regarding our native species, the native Jamaican species of plants, what has happened in the past? Are you seeing more less than what used to exist here?

SPEAKER_04 27:52

And what are some of the the ways that um our plant life have been have have been utilized for the benefit of all of us?

SPEAKER_03 28:03

Well, as Damian mentioned, firstly, plants in general provide food for humans through fruits and other type of vegetable matter, vegetable products. They provide habitats for various other animals, frogs, like in frogs in some of the brominards. A lot of the brominads have some even some endemic crabs that only live in certain brominards. You have um lizards, of course, live on trees, birds, birds get their food from the trees. Um, the trees in general are also important for the watershed management of the watershed resources of the country. Also, the potential for undiscovered medicines. In Jamaica, we use a lot of herbal remedies, so we never know what we'll get from the forests, so we don't want to lose anything. In fact, there was a this isn't a last case, but um there was some research was being done in the chemistry department at the University of Western occlusia species. They were doing in general just prospecting for interesting compounds, and they found a compound in one of these clues that grows in the cop in not copper country, in the Jung Crow Mountains. Is there a common name for the clues here? Uh tarp that might not say the tar pots. They have thick um fleshy leaves. Okay. Um the closest thing I can read it to is something called mammy, uhmy apple. Oh, it is a clue, it's in the same family. So they have thick leaves and big trees in general. Anyway, this clues I'm telling about they discovered an interesting compound that was showed activity against HIV virus. So we never know. Maybe a plant could be useful in dealing with the next if there's a next global epit um pandemic or something. Also, there's a general it is well known that if people are isolated from greenery, they tend to be more depressed. So just having the plants around are useful for the psychological benefit of people. And of course, oxygen. Plants provide the oxygen, basically.

SPEAKER_01 30:16

Mr. Lewis, in terms of our transition, Jamaica's transition, um, from the plants we used to have to now, have you seen a big shift in terms of the the population of endemic species that we have now compared to before?

SPEAKER_03 30:32

I haven't done the detailed research or even any detailed literal research, but in general, I mean the all the housing developments going on, um, they're taking a lot of places where plant trees would have been that would support orchids, even in the dry areas, like areas of the elsewhere use. Um, those are habitats for a lot, some orchids, especially protonia sanguinea, which is for the endemic orchid, although it is using orchid hybrids all over a lot over the world now. That's that little red orchid you see people selling on the roadside.

SPEAKER_04 31:08

Oh, yes.

SPEAKER_03 31:09

Um, right. So orchid population generally falls when housing developments. Grameliads also suffer. Uh but um other than endemic plants, I would mention that some things usually see to be common, like even as a child. Like even the plant called stinking to the fruit, I mean a cover. Yeah, there used to be a lot of more trees, and it used to be more well-known when we were children. It's part of our heritage for children to break it and eat the food, eat the the fruit. Um other than the fact that the plants might be lost, also I need to mention that people might might forget the uses of some of the plants.

SPEAKER_04 32:00

We're talking about a whole system, a connected, interconnected, mutually supportive system of which humans are one part, right? But clearly from all that you've said, the system is vast.

SPEAKER_00 32:18

Right.

SPEAKER_04 32:18

It's got lots of elements, each playing distinct roles, um uh and and each helping the whole system to work. And when you start, as as you had, um, as you had said, Damien, when you start to move elements of the system, uh, either because we've now we're developing quote unquote, and we are losing some of the elements of the system, um, it may take a while, but is it possible for the whole system to collapse, Dr. Kemp?

SPEAKER_00 32:54

Absolutely. Absolutely. Um, and you know, that's one of the things that we really worry about uh with biodiversity loss is that the system will collapse. And because you know, Damien mentioned earlier, there are so many things that we do not know about ecosystems, we don't know about the functions and the roles that different species play. And once you lose it, you can't necessarily get that back. So it is really important that we um try to preserve as much as we can and allow for things to um stay um and nurture them because once you start taking certain components away, the system can collapse and we are going to feel the brunt of it.

SPEAKER_04 33:29

You you do work not just here but in the Caribbean. Um what's the state of things Caribbean wide? And are you finding lots of commonalities in the in the species across countries, or is it that each country is it's its own unique space?

SPEAKER_00 33:54

Yeah, that's a great question. I I definitely think there are some commonalities, but each um country and you know each island, um, but you know, even with islands that have multi-um governance, there are differences. And I think one thing that's really stood out to me is the importance of humans in shaping the biodiversity of the Caribbean. Um, sometimes people refer to the Caribbean as a natural laboratory. I don't always like that terminology, but the idea is because you have all of these islands that have been populated by a variety of organisms. They're endemic species, but they are closely related to one another. And then evolution plays out, and you have all these different um sort of case studies in terms of like uh when humans arrived, what are humans doing on the landscape, and then the results are a bit different. So each island can kind of serve as a case study for learning about uh biodiversity change. One thing that we see throughout the Caribbean is that there's been non-random extinction of uh different vertebrate fauna, and most of my work has focused on vertebrate fauna. So the Caribbean has had a significant loss in mammals, um, and it's interesting because it looks like it happens in two waves. So the and both of those waves, I should say, appear to be associated with human colonization events. So when humans first start to arrive in the Caribbean, we start to lose a lot of the bigger species, these are the things like the monkeys, the sloths that used to live here. Um, but then when Europeans arrive, we start losing the smaller organisms. And we think that maybe well, so backing up really quickly, one of the reasons why we think we lose a lot of those bigger things first is because uh there is a lot of direct exploitation of those organisms as food sources. Um, and then when Europeans come, there still is some exploitation of um mammals, but we also are starting to see introduction of competitors and smaller predators. So, as Damien mentioned, the mongoose was introduced by Europeans. Um you have cats and rats and a lot of uh rats. There are a lot of smaller rodents that used to live in the Caribbean that seem to have competed with um the introduced ones. There may have been some disease transmission as well, so you started to lose smaller things. Um we are left with a mosaic of taxa um across the Caribbean, um, particularly for the mammals with reptiles, particularly lizards, which has been a focus of my research. We lost a lot of large-bodied lizards. The data are not always as good for lizards in terms of figuring out the timing of those extinctions, but a number of those species went extinct after Europeans arrived. And we think again, a lot of those extinctions may have been due to interactions with introduced species.

SPEAKER_01 36:33

So our listeners might be wondering, and I am kind of sharing the same sentiment. We are the problem, humans are the problem. One of my lectures, previous lecturer at the University of the West Indies used to say, his name is Eric, Dr. Eric Garraway. He used to say the natural systems aren't the problem, it's really the people, and we have to manage people, not really the system. So I agree with that. What can we do going forward using nature-based solutions to help to restore, preserve our natural biodiversity?

SPEAKER_04 37:06

And and just connected to Ronico's question, and I'd like to hear each of you events like hurricanes, um, naturally occurring events, they have an impact on the environment. Um talk a little bit as as you're taking Ronico's question on board about the natural return of of um what has been removed by the hor the winds or or or so on. You know, so people look at the landscape and the trees are down and so on and so forth, and for some of us we panic, oh dare no trees. Um so talk about how nature restores itself, um, as well as what can we do um to encourage that restoration. So perhaps Damien start with you and then we'll we'll whip around for each of you to take that.

SPEAKER_02 38:05

Okay, so so one of the first things with hurricanes. Um when you have an event like this, it is supposed to be a learning event for the country. And what I mean like that, the hurricane comes, but it's important for us to document what happened after the hurricane. One of the problems that we have in general is that we don't really have long-term data collection here in Jamaica. So when the hurricane happened, we had challenges in having some information of how things were before. And I can start that off with when you heard about the junkers or the turkey vultures. So one of the complaints, I am not seeing a lot of turkey vultures in an area after the hurricane. But the question was were you seeing turkey vultures in that era before the hurricane? Yes, yeah, every area has a certain so the turkey vultures are in an area that can sustain them. And what do you mean sustain provide enough food? So in an area where um during the best of time, it can only support 10 turkey vultures. So you will find 10 turkey vultures there. So even though the hurricane, as you say, there's a lot of animals that have passed and all of that, you'd expect more. If the area does not normally sustain that more, that number, then you won't find them after the hurricane. So that what answered one of the questions that people are asked. They do move, but we were just trying to get information overall on what we have. So that deal with one. Now, when a hurricane comes, certain trees will um fall, certain trees come back. Which local trees come back? What do I mean that? So we start with the local palms. So when we went in some of the parishes that were hit hard um after the hurricanes, some number of our native palms, um, when they are stressed, they start doing something, they start flowering. When they flower, these were the only trees standing up there that was providing food for our birds, birds like the ball plate, doves. It was the only place that you saw a lot of bees. It was so much activity going around these trees because when they go at the majority of the trees, all you were seeing was stick. So there were no leaves. So that provided the food source at that time. And then after all, nature has a nice way to heal itself. We start to leaves coming back, we start to flower and all of that. So the learning lesson from that part now would be looking at which native trees that I plant compared to some people who bring in some of the palm trees that we see overseas because they look pretty in Florida. We carry them, come here, but they don't do well with hurricane when they breathe it, they fall over. So those are stuff that I said important of documenting. Another aspect, when a hurricane hit, um, especially wildlife, we we did some studies after the hurricane looking at some of our bats. One of the most common bats that we have that some people might be unhappy that they leave fruits at your home, it's our fruit bats. And we are pulling our information showing that a couple months after the hurricane, we find that the the weight of the bats decrease. So when a hurricane hit an area, it goes it affect the wildlife in two ways. One, it directly hit and several of them might die. Two, after the the the hurricane hit, they might be having a hard time finding food. And that will affect the population further on. So you might come out and say, Oh, I didn't see much um birds being affected, not much dead birds or something like that. But in a couple of months or a year, it affects their breeding, reproducing, or some of them might not survive because they can't get food, or might be weak and are easily seen by the predators because they don't have the foliage hiding them, which is a leaf. So to sum it up, the hurricane have both direct and indirect impact on the animals. And what we should learn from this is the trees to plant after the hurricane, how do we help these animals? People reporting on social media, white crown pigeon, which is a ball plate that never came on the ground, was on the ground, scavenging with other birds for food. The parakeets were there, as a result, people were catching them, trying to sell them, which you need added enforcement. How do we help the birds? How do we help the bees? How do we help the plant? So when the next hurricane comes, which we know will come, what we need to do to improve. So, what I'm saying is this is important to get the information, it is important to learn the lessons, and it's important to document so we can do it in the planning process.

SPEAKER_04 43:09

I'm gonna come back to the planning process in a bit, but Mr. Lewis, your thoughts on on the question, um uh you know what what goes, what stays, what replenishes itself, and what we do.

SPEAKER_03 43:25

What I would say is that after hurricanes, that uh a bad thing that happened is that invasive species um increase. Well, first thing uh especially a high force hurricane is an opportunity for uh material from plants and from other areas to come, like seeds and so on. Um also clearing the filling off big trees. Also encourages opportunist species that look for gaps in the forest to grow, like um or secopia peltata, trumpet tree as well. Trumpetry, okay. That will there will be a lot of it in um growing up and an increase in size in try the forest after after hurricane. So invasive species is one thing you have to look out for.

SPEAKER_04 44:32

And so and in in in invasive species, can we just unpack that term a little bit for listeners? What do you mean by invasive species? And I'm imagining that that's not only plant life but also animal life, correct?

SPEAKER_03 44:49

Yes, there are invasive animals or invasive plants.

SPEAKER_04 44:53

What do we mean by invasive animals?

SPEAKER_03 44:55

Well, uh invasive species is basically one that is not native to the area, and more than that, it is in the island, and more than that, it is reproducing um aggressively. So it might be trying to force out or make competition for some native species, especially other species that are not so aggressive in their reproduction. Um try to think of an example. Well, Lucina Lucosephala. What's that? It's a plant. It's called lit, it's uh it's a relative of um Guango tree. Oh, yeah. But it's a smaller statue of that sort of feathery looking leaves. So in dry limestone forests, it spreads a lot inside. And as far as I know, there m there should be a team, one or two native, but the Lucina Lucas is not native to Jamaica. It I think was brought in to do um what do you call it? Um bio by biomass production, you know, growing things to make charcoal.

SPEAKER_04 46:07

Damien many people bring in plants and animals. They bring in exotic pets and and so on. There is a parrot, for example, that I am beginning to see. It's got very long tail, um, and it's very different from our our native parrot. What's the issue with people bringing in species and why should people be careful about that?

SPEAKER_02 46:39

Yes, so you are you have hit the the jackpot with the the big question following up what Patrick said with with invasive.

SPEAKER_04 46:47

Yes.

SPEAKER_02 46:48

So major so normally when somebody is bringing in uh a particular both animal and plant species in Jamaica, there's certain precautionary stuff that has to be done at the wharf. So one, you check to make sure it's okay. You check to make sure that it don't have any disease. And disease could come off from a ticks on that animal to it having something like a coal to something bloodborne, to even if the animal gets where itself it can reproduce fast. So all of that is done at the port. The same thing is done with the plants, they check to make sure the plant is okay, and that there's no other pest or fungus that might come on the plant. So all of this are done at our port. People might say take long, but different experts have to check on it. No, a lot of these exotic species, people are carrying them illegally in, and one, they have not done any of those tests to check to see what it has. Now, when these species get away, one of the things is they fit good in our environment because our environment on the island is normally good conditions for a lot of these species. So one we have right now that is driving us crazy, the Cuban tree frog that might have happened in a container. Yeah, the birds that you're talking about is the ring the park kit. It is one of the top invasive birds in the world. It is creating problems in Europe, in other Caribbean islands. And one of the things about this bird, they reproduce fast than ours. Second thing, they don't normally like to build their nest cavities, so they use other bird nest cavities. So like the woodpecker nest, they would use it. When the woodpecker builds its nest, other native birds, like the what we call um cash trail or some people call the small chicken hawk, all of those use those nest holes. Now this bird uses it. And they reproduce fast and farm big flocks that can be up to 800, and then they will go in a farm now and eat. Now the normal Jamaican not going to differentiate and say, boy, this parrot have a long tail or it's different from our green ones. So you know what they will do? They will persecute all. And we have three Amazonas here, and the two of them are on the IUCN. That's the yellow bill and the black bill part. These birds can also have disease that they can pass on to our endemics. And when they get these diseases, then it will hit the population. Now, some of these diseases can affect us in terms of agricultural crop, and it can make us sick. So, like the people who carry the monkey on the boat, there's several diseases that a monkey can have, and it might look cute, but you get scratched. And we have heard cases already of somebody child got scratched and had to get the shots. And the last one I want to talk about is the green iguana, which is which came on island to spend over millions of US dollars to try to control it. Over a year, they kill about a million of these wizards. I remember I was working on a project, and one night they got about 80 of these iguana off one mango tree. So this is why we preach and we beg people please don't smuggle in. It might look cute. Don't smuggle in. Follow the process. It will affect you, your neighbor, and the whole of Jamaica in time.

SPEAKER_04 50:21

And and that balance in the ecosystem that we talked about before, right?

SPEAKER_02 50:26

Yes, it throws it off.

SPEAKER_04 50:27

It throws it off. One to zero in now on urban contexts and how we can respond to um a consequence of urbanization, which is the risk of biodiversity loss. So in the urban context, what uh what what are some of the impacts on biodiversity in in urban settings, and what are some of the interventions that can be done to support, preserve, and encourage uh greater biodiversity in in cities and towns, and why does it matter? Start with you, Dr. Kemp.

SPEAKER_00 51:14

Okay. Um, so we're gonna start with this. So um I would say that um one of the biggest issues with urbanization is just the habitat destruction. You know, you're uh clearing away natural areas, the vegetation of natural areas, often replacing it with non-native uh vegetation that native tax native species do not have these long-term interactions with. You know, species, both plants and animals have co-evolved on Jamaica for millions of years. So when you start to introduce non-native species, particularly invasive ones, invasive species will tag along together and they will encourage one another. So a lot of times when we are developing areas where we're moving native vegetation, that's going to lead to declines in native animals, and we're creating conditions where all types of non-native species, both plants and animals, are going to thrive. So that's going to be a major issue. Um, it also has negative impacts on health potentially, a human health. Um, you know, creating these concrete jungles as opposed to these natural jungles. Uh, you create these what are sometimes called heat islands, where temperature is also just a lot hotter. So it's also a lot less pleasant for us to live there. But then again, that affects native uh animals as well and native plants too, who may be temperature sensitive. So I think one, there are two things I would say that we really need to think about when we are um conduct when we're developing. We need to think about where we are developing first and foremost, you know, uh as human populations increase or as um our socioeconomic statuses change and we want to develop, um, we need to do it smartly. So thinking about where we are putting developments. Uh, there are some areas of the island that have more biodiversity than others, uh, partially due to past instances of urbanization or just habitat modification. And we need to be cognizant of that. So, you know, developing in the Hellshore Hills may look, it may not be as smart as developing, you know, somewhere else, for example, because of the species that are there. So I think it's really important for us to have an understanding of the biodiversity of a place and not just what is there but what it could do, but we also recognize that we don't always know what roles a species may play yet. But just knowing that this area has a lot of species and particularly species that maybe are not found in other parts of Jamaica, that might mean we shouldn't develop this particular area. And then if we do decide to develop certain areas, maybe because they do have less biodiversity, we should be very mindful of how we're developing and if we're in develop in a way that can encourage biodiversity. So utilizing native plants, having to strategically placed green areas in those urban areas so that it benefits both people and plants and animals that are all utilizing this earth together.

SPEAKER_04 53:49

Awesome. And uh Damien, your thoughts?

SPEAKER_02 53:52

So, what are the impacts of urbanization? And I've always told people that we we we have to live, we need a place to live.

SPEAKER_05 54:01

Yes.

SPEAKER_02 54:03

So we need to find the balance between development and protecting um biodiversity. So from an urban setting, we we have to think about how we're building the place. So you you just go in an area, we have this thing where we just cut down the trees, and we said, okay, we cut down some big trees. This might take a hundred years, we plant some seedlings and they will go back. You don't know how much plant trees that um, how many seeds are how many seedlings were there to get that one tree. And when you cut down that tree, that tree provides um you know cooler temperature for you to park your car to shade from the sun, it put it provide a home for the birds, it provides for the lizard, the bats come out. So when you take all these trees, it affects the whole ecosystem. So you need those services to get the ideal place that you need to live in. So right now we hear talking, you know, the gas price going up. Energy, I when I'm stressing my office, I walk them up, go to a tree, look at a bird, you know, to get that that peace of mind. So the thing is we just have to understand that when we're doing this developmental stuff now, that when it just it's not just removing a tree, there's a big value to a big tree, and that big tree creates the environment that will make you feel happy, provide um source of food, provide home for the animals. So when we are doing this now, we we have to incorporate and don't think about ourselves individual or think about humans, we have to think about the whole ecosystem.

SPEAKER_04 56:00

Yeah, and and when you come in your commenting, Mr. Lewis, you know, people think, well, tree is tree. So if I remove certain kinds and I plant palms, then I've solved the problem. Um is are trees true just trees, or do we need to be mindful and thoughtful about how much we remove and what we replace them with?

SPEAKER_03 56:23

Trees are not just trees. Every tree is a unique. Well, it has to be its own species, and then um depending on what the species is for a part of the area, it will feed certain insects, certain birds, certain reptiles will live in those trees. So a reptile might not want to live in a path of tree. A reptile that lives in a mountain pride tree might not want to live in a palm tree or that that you just bought at the industry and brought in. What I wanted to say though, I live in Longville Park, which and I live in the face, well, thank God I got a home here, but I live in the phase tree, which is the most recent part of Longville Park. And since I came here, when I came here, which was about 12 years ago, in the nights you could see fireflies around the place.

SPEAKER_04 57:17

Yes.

SPEAKER_03 57:17

And again, sometimes sometimes developers will go and clear out the part behind us and they're flying some load or something. And nowadays, because of some clearing of indiscriminate clearing of the bush, you don't see fireflies. Again, so they will remove the it's even just the act of going over the ground because fireflies tend to stay in the ground during the day, and the whole disruption of their environment, I'm sure that's what decreases the population. They need to consider what they're doing. Yeah, they need to at least think about leaving green spaces when developments are the plan.

SPEAKER_01 58:06

Right. You know, Carol, what I've been gathering throughout all our discussions in quite a few of our episodes is this word. It always comes to the fore. Intentional. You have to be intentional with everything you do, planning, how you put the parks, where you put it, the different species you're trying to attract for the biodiversity element, what you're doing, and how it impacts other others. Sorry, I've seen that come through for all of our episodes.

SPEAKER_04 58:36

As we conclude the discussion, um, for every episode, I ask, we've talked a lot, we've said a lot, and sometimes, you know, listeners may say, okay, what what's my takeaway? What's important for me to remember?

SPEAKER_02 58:54

So, one of the first things I would just tell anybody listening here, we we we explain a lot of things, but I would just leave one thing with you. Just take a time, take a little break, go outside, breathe in and out, and just start looking. Yeah, and when you start looking, that's the voyage where you might reach where we are now. Where you start see that we have a lot of interesting stuff in there, and everything plays a role, whether you like it or not, whether it's ugly, whether it's pretty, whether it's not, it is there. Whether it have a function, whether it have a value that we don't know, it is there. And we all play a role, they all play a role just like us in that ecosystem there.

SPEAKER_03 59:42

Yeah, Mr. Lewis. I would say that we need to remember that ecosystems like forest beaches and so on are often not recognized as providers of a might call it a spiritual service. That in people, when people when people are in such places, they feel a connection to something or someone greater than themselves, whatever you want to call that someone. This reconnecting to God might as well introduce social turmoil and providing peace to families and inner peace to many individuals. Right. So let's let's not put let's not dismiss the value of our wild spaces in connecting us to ourselves and to some big other. Dr. Camp.

SPEAKER_00 1:00:30

Yeah, I I think it's really important to remember that we, you know, this is a system that we are part of. Biodiversity is going to be here to stay. It was here before us, it will be here after us. And humans have always been ecosystem engineers, meaning that we have restructured biodiversity, and we see it here in Jamaica, we see it all over the world. Um, we have done bad things of biodiversity, but we've also done good things. And I think we should all remember that as ecosystem engineers, we have the power to good, to do good. Um, so I think we need to keep that in mind uh to you know nurture the biodiversity that we have for ourselves, but also for future generations of humans and other organisms that live in this world with us.

SPEAKER_04 1:01:10

Absolutely. And so, you know, listeners, um, as we talk about how we can um operate within urban, the urban context, you've heard from our guests that preserving our tree cover and not just any tree, but being thoughtful and mindful and intentional about planting and preserving and planting the the trees that attract the bird life that we have had, because not every tree does that. Being intentional about the plants that we have we we remove and the ones we have replaced, being intentional about what plants are those. Are they plants that are are endemic or found in Jamaica? Or are we bringing plants from elsewhere because that's gonna determine what what your bee life and butterfly life and all these other things might be? And those things, your bees, your butterflies, all the insects, have a role to play in our food supply. Um, and and so it it has that impact. But you've also heard that preserving our natural world as much as we can, incorporating it into the design of our urban spaces, preserving it in our urban spaces is important not just for the food benefits or or other, but also important for our sense of well-being and our connectedness to something bigger than ourselves. We hope that the conversation uh in this episode has um been inspiring, been edge informative, and we look forward to having other conversations and ask you to join with us. And so we really want to thank Mr. Patrick Lewis, botanist and former curator at the University of the West Indies Mona, uh curator of its herbarium. We're really uh thankful to have had Damien White, uh aka Roosters World, on social media. Look for him on pretty much all platforms because what he posts is very informative and educational. And he's assistant lecturer at the University of the West Indies and a terrestrial biologist by training. And we have had the pleasure of having Dr. Melissa Kemp as well, conservation paleobiologist and evolutionary biologist, an associate professor in the Department of Integrative Biology at the University of Texas. We thank you all very, very much for uh sharing in this in this episode.

SPEAKER_01 1:03:47

And so when Yes, so for me, we're leaving with a full belly here, and I hope our listeners are leaving with a full belly as well. So you can keep up with the Resilience Naturally Podcast and everything the J Use Project and the EFJ are doing by following the Environmental Foundation of Jamaica on social media, on Facebook and LinkedIn. Just search for Environmental Foundation of Jamaica and on Instagram it is the underscore EFJ. That's the underscore EFJ, and visit our website at www.efj.org.jm.

SPEAKER_04 1:04:26

And you know, we we are really thankful not only to our guests but also to the Harry J Studios where we are recording the podcast. Um Harry J Studio 10 of McKinley Drive, although previously known as Roosevelt Avenue. You can come to Harry J Studios and record just about any and everything: music, jingles, podcasts. Um, and so we thank our studio engineer who helps us with both the production and post-production work for this podcast. And so until our next episode, I'm Carol Narcis.

SPEAKER_01 1:05:03

And I'm Renika Welcome at night. Take care.

SPEAKER_04 1:05:06

Take care.