Talking Real Money - Investing Talk
Financial talk radio veteran, Don McDonald and former host of Serious Money on PBS, Tom Cock, join forces to talk about real money issues. In each episode, they solve real money problems, dole out real investing (not speculating) advice, and really explain the financial issues that effect all of us. Plus, it's actually fun! Talking Real Money is a podcast designed to provide the real help we all need to enjoy a really great future. Call in with your questions anytime at 855-935-TALK (8255).
Talking Real Money - Investing Talk
The $315K Fork
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Fresh from passing the CFP exam, Roxy Butner joins Tom to work through a classic retirement fork: take the richer lifetime teacher pension, or accept a $315,000 lump sum and invest it. The math matters, but so do longevity, survivor benefits, liquidity, investing temperament, and the temptation to spend the pile.
Next comes a clever tax-payment question: can IRA withholding replace quarterly estimated payments during Roth-conversion years? They explain why paying conversion taxes from taxable money usually preserves more long-term value.
The show closes with a 5.25% mortgage-versus-investing decision and a portfolio x-ray that finds a dividend-heavy international fund missing small companies, value stocks, and emerging markets.
00:58 Roxy passes the CFP exam
02:46 Teacher pension or $315,000 lump sum?
08:36 Rolling a pension lump sum to an IRA
09:33 IRA withholding versus estimated taxes
13:48 Pay off a 5.25% mortgage or invest?
17:34 Fixing an under-diversified retirement portfolio
21:50 Living—and spending—with a sound plan
Underneath the parrot sky. One little franc won't multiply. Mona me don't keep it in one town. Spread it round the whole world round.
SPEAKER_05La la la la la-da-la-da-da-da-da-da-la. Ooh la la, don't stay in parish belly. Spend real money across the roxy will show you how talking real money global now. Talking real money for global now. Talking real money.
SPEAKER_04Avec Tom and Roxy's television.
SPEAKER_05Diversify money. We are talking real money.
SPEAKER_03Wow, what a great intro to another exciting episode of Talking
CFP Celebration and Questions
SPEAKER_03Real Money. Hi, I'm Tom Cock. As you may have noticed from the open, we've got uh well, somebody that doesn't get by as much as we'd like her to, and we'll tell you why now. Because she's been studying and working and reading and writing, apparently a lot of stuff, because Roxy Butner, one of our advisors here and the infrequent uh uh host, if you will, hostess of Talking Real Money, has uh just completed her CFP exam and it was thumbs up. So congratulations on passing that. That is a huge milestone for you.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, thank you. I'm very excited to have studying behind me for at least a little while.
SPEAKER_03Yes, I imagine. It's hard to get back into as you well, you're still very young, but it's still a little hard to get back to.
SPEAKER_01But it's been like 10 years since I studied for something like that. So I was like thinking to myself, do I still have it in me? But I did.
SPEAKER_03So you did. Congratulations. A huge, huge deal. And uh we're super excited for you. So it's uh a great ticket to have, as we say, in this business. I think it's the the best designation available to advisor. So uh you've got that now, and uh not that you didn't have the expertise before you certainly did, but it's a good one to have. So Roxy is along today to help us uh kind of wade through the pile of questions that have been coming in the last few months, which has been great. Keep them coming. We love we love hearing from you, we love talking about them. We do the best we can to answer them all. You just go to talkingroomoney.com, you'll see it right there. Ask a question. We're happy to do so. And without further ado, our CFP uh fiduciary advisor. Is I'm missing anything here? Uh Roxy Butner joins us with these questions. Go
Teacher Pension Choices
SPEAKER_03ahead, Roxy.
SPEAKER_01Okay, our first one here is from Mark in New Lennox, Illinois, and he says, Thank you for taking my question. This might require a Tom phone call for the podcast. I am married with adult children, maybe a seven to eight thousand dollar monthly burn rate, and am one year from retiring with an Illinois teacher pension. I have been offered two options, age fifty-eight to sixty-one, I can receive nine thousand twenty-eight dollars per month. Then at sixty-one, I will receive nine thousand nine hundred and ninety-nine dollars per month.
SPEAKER_03So if he waits a little bit, he gets a bigger amount, that makes sense.
SPEAKER_01Well, no, so it's saying I think the first three years, so he'd retire at sixty-eight, he'll receive a smaller amount, but then at sixty one, they'll bump it up.
SPEAKER_03Okay.
SPEAKER_01And receive a cost of living adjustment of three percent per year.
SPEAKER_03So that one has a cola in it of three percent, which is less and less usual in today's world.
SPEAKER_01So and starting at the 61 years old. Okay. And then the second option is at age 58 through 67, he'll receive that same initial amount, $9,028 per month. But then beginning at age 67, they'll receive $9,163 per month and a 1.5% cost of living adjustment. It's kind of confusing.
SPEAKER_03There's a lot there.
SPEAKER_01It is kind of confusing. It's basically similar, the the uh longer term amount will be smaller than option one. However, this is interesting, we don't see this often. With option two, he will receive a lump sum payout of three hundred and fifteen thousand dollars at age sixty-seven.
SPEAKER_03Aaron Powell And does it say anything about his marital status and whether or not this has a uh a spousal survivor benefit? Trevor Burrus, Jr.
SPEAKER_01That's one of my big question marks, because I think he did say he is married. Yes. So he is married.
SPEAKER_03Aaron Powell Because to me that uh and I know we're gonna get more into the guts of all this, that oftentimes in most relationships it makes sense to if you're gonna take the uh the the the annuity, if you will, to have it for the spouse. Because people get used to getting that amount every month, and then when that person uh sadly leaves us, uh here you the other person has they've gotten used to having that amount. So I oftentimes recommend getting the spousal benefit, but go ahead.
SPEAKER_01Yeah. At least the 50% spousal. Most of times with these pensions, they give you a hundred percent spousal where they would get a hundred percent of what you got, but uh you could also do 50% or 75% where it'd be a smaller amount.
SPEAKER_04Yep.
SPEAKER_01Um okay, so he asks question one, which option is more optimal, considering I could invest that lump sum and draw down maybe two percent annually to make up the monthly difference while investing the rest, maybe 65% stocks, 35% bonds to make it last 30 plus years.
SPEAKER_04Okay, yep.
SPEAKER_01This option will ensure I can gift significant money to my kids in the event my wife and I both pass, which my pension would not allow.
SPEAKER_03That's right. So, but I mean some of this comes down to your personality, right? Uh and you've heard me say this previously. If you're an investor and you're comfortable investing, remember that money, that $300,000 needs to be properly invested. You know, a certain amount in stocks, certain amount of bonds, wide diversification, et cetera, et cetera, for it to work. But generally, if you take that route, yes, you do end up not only paying yourself out more, you end up with something at the end. The pension, there's no uh when it's gone, it's gone. Um however, if you're not an investor, if you're not used to stock market up and down, if you're not uh dealing used to dealing with volatility, then I often tell people, you know, while it might be a good financial decision to take the lump sum, emotionally it might not. But uh, what's your take on all this?
SPEAKER_01I agree absolutely. I mean, when you look at the math, it's almost nine times out of ten, it makes more sense to take a lump sum option if you can assume it can be invested properly. Um so in this case, I think I kind of ran some some chicken scratch numbers. I think you'd have to earn at least five percent or so in the portfolio of sixty-five-35, as you mentioned, um, in order to kind of break even. So if you think, you know, when we look back historically, 60, 40 portfolios, 7% average historical return, you could be in a lot better position by taking the lump sum. But again, you have to know how to invest it or work with someone who knows how to invest it.
SPEAKER_03Yeah. And the longer haul, I by the way, this came up in the car last night because I was reading through these on the way to the film, and uh my wife said, Well, what if he spends it all? I uh that that could happen, right? Because you get the 310 and all of a sudden something looks great, or I need a new roof. Well, I mean, all that's not gonna cover that's not gonna take 300,000 unless it's a very large building. But something comes along where you spend all that money, now you're not in a great place. But I personally think most of these decisions are down to who you who you are as an investor, your emotional makeup, and frankly, your partner's emotional makeup plays a role there as well.
SPEAKER_01And also you mentioned you only need about $8,000 per month for your expenses, kind of at the high level. So maybe you don't need to draw and you have more tax flexibility where your income's a little bit lower, you just take, you know, the $9,000 they give you for the pension, and then you can save this lump sum for, like Tom mentioned, the larger expenses that come up in retirement, like a new roof or you know, whatever it is.
SPEAKER_03Trevor Burrus, Jr.: It's nice to have both of those things because the liquidity, as you correctly point, is a nice thing, not just for your kids, but for you as you're going along in your life, because something comes along that is an added expense and you don't have the liquid assets to do so, now you have that money in place. So there can be some advantages to that as well.
SPEAKER_01Aaron Powell And you also kind of want to consider the longevity in your family and your overall health, too. Because you know, I talk to clients who aren't in the best health, and they always want to do the lump sum because they want to make sure that their beneficiaries will benefit from something.
SPEAKER_03Trevor Burrus, Jr.: Because if you don't live very long after you file for that pension, that turned out was a bad decision. Yeah. So great one. That's a really good question and uh terrific answer from our new CFP. Yes.
SPEAKER_01He did ask one additional kind of point here. He did ask the lump sum, if he takes it as cash, will be taxed at 20 percent. And if he rolls it into his IRA, can he uh avoid that? He can roll over typically a pension lump sum, tax-free, into a traditional IRA.
SPEAKER_03The money can go right from the pension plan into his IRA, no taxes.
SPEAKER_01Yes.
SPEAKER_03The only time you're going to pay taxes, I think he did ask about rolling it into a Roth.
SPEAKER_01Yep.
SPEAKER_03You wouldn't want to do that all at one big you could move it to the IRA, and then if you want to do some Roth conversions along the way, that would be possible. I think just rolling it into an IRA and then paying whatever percent your tax rate is as you go along. Yeah. When you take it out. So great question. Thank you very much. Hope things are well in Illinois these
Tax Withholding Strategy
SPEAKER_03days.
SPEAKER_01Okay, this is from James in the Colony, Texas. It's kind of a two-parter here. Um, and he asks, hello, Tom and Don. Love the show, looking for your feedback. This won't be the best idea you've heard, but can you assure me it isn't the worst?
SPEAKER_03That's not a great open, just so you know, by the way. When they come to me with those, I think, oh, this does not sound good.
SPEAKER_01Yeah. The background here is we are living in Texas, married, ages 66 and 69, fully retired. 1.8 million in traditional IRA. We're doing Roth conversions to stay in the 22% bracket.
SPEAKER_04Yep.
SPEAKER_01Our situation, we're being fully retired. We pay quarterly estimated taxes as the government expects these throughout the year. I hate paying these. I pay using monies from my brokerage account. However, if I withdraw money from my traditional IRA and withhold the full amount for taxes, the government considers this as being paid throughout the year. No estimated taxes necessary. At the end of the year, I have a very good idea of what my taxes are versus estimated in April and June. So let's say I still owe $20,000 for the year. I can withdraw $25,000 from my IRA as a gross distribution, have them withhold the entire amount for taxes, and I consider $20,000 of that towards the taxes that I owe, plus an extra $5,000 for the additional IRA distributions and therefore income from the withdrawal.
SPEAKER_03And then he added Well, so okay, so but I'm trying to make sure I'm understanding a question there. So is that should I pay now or should I pay later? Or is it should I pay from my brokerage or the IRA? If you're just taking income from your IRA and spending it, I'm okay with the withholding. If this is money for a conversion, I would I would rather see it come from the brokerage account. And you're right, the government has figured out that uh gosh, if we don't get our money till next April, it's not worth as much as it was last October. So um I don't see any way around the doing that one way or the other. So I and I would much prefer always with any conversion. In fact, I don't like any conversion where you're taking money from the retirement account and using that to pay taxes. Um that's but what's your read on that one?
SPEAKER_01Yeah, and uh you know, the question here, my thought was maybe he doesn't have a lot in his brokerage account, and so he doesn't want to draw that down. But he did follow up by saying that, you know, following up uh regarding this question, he didn't indicate why this may be an option. Uh let's see here, to consider. And he says it's all psychological because it's painful to write out a $4,000 check four times a year.
SPEAKER_03Rather than just having it deducted.
unknownYeah.
SPEAKER_03Yeah. I mean, this is one of those things about all things financial to make them automated and disciplined is much easier, as you say, than having to sit down and write the check. So that sounds very personal to me. Uh I I again, if it's a conversion, I don't want that money coming out of the retirement account. If it if it's not, if it's simply income, then sure, have them withhold the 20, 22 percent and uh g send that to the government, everybody would be happy.
SPEAKER_01It's a cyclical issue here because the more you take out of the IRA to pay taxes, the higher your income is. That's right. And it's not always a straight line, too. There might be certain deductions that you might not you might disqualify yourself from because of different, you know, modified adjusted gross income phase-outs, like for example, the senior deduction.
SPEAKER_03Sure.
SPEAKER_01So if you take an extra $25,000 out, you want to make sure it's not putting you in a different bracket. But also that's the earning potential of that $25,000 could have been in the after-tax you know Roth account, growing tax-free for X amount of years. So if you have the funds in your brokerage, as painful as it is, we'd recommend paying the taxes out of the brokerage. Trevor Burrus, Jr.
SPEAKER_03It's never fun. I I mean we this this comes up uh one out of three questions, it seems like. How do I do this without paying tax? And the reality is unless you move to, you know, the Bahamas or some tax-free haven, I don't know. There's no a lot, there's not a lot of tricks to all that. But I love what you just said about the opportunity cost, because that's something that should be paid attention to. Um it should be watched, but write the check and get on with your life.
SPEAKER_01Yeah.
SPEAKER_03Sorry. It's a great country. We live in a great place, right? You know, there's a lot of advantages.
Mortgage Versus Investing
SPEAKER_01So yeah.
SPEAKER_03Go ahead. Next one. Yeah, please.
SPEAKER_01Alrighty. This is from Eric in Albuquerque, New Mexico, regarding paying off a mortgage early. Since you're short of questions and the Pacific Northwest is still overrun with trees.
SPEAKER_03Good point to both, by the way.
SPEAKER_01Here's a classic conundrum. I am 52 years old and single. Purchased a home with a 30-year mortgage in 2022 at an interest rate of 5.25 percent.
SPEAKER_03Okay, so 5.2 is the interest rate. Okay. And and I've said this previously that I find 5% to be kind of the break point. If things are above five, I want you to pay them off a little more quickly. If they're below five, I'm okay with them.
SPEAKER_01Yeah. I have a pension, a healthy 401k balance, and savings rate, and no other debt. I can pay off my mortgage by the time I'm 60. Rather than making extra payments on my mortgage, I am putting that money into a brokerage account that is 50 percent AVGE.
SPEAKER_03That's the Avantis Global Equity Fund.
SPEAKER_01And 50 percent VTEB. I think almost forget which is the tax-exempt bond.
SPEAKER_03Oh, okay, so municipal bonds. Yeah, okay, yeah.
SPEAKER_01I contribute money each month and use the contributions to rebalance. I use my mortgage interest, charitable contributions, and pre-tax 401k contributions to lower my marginal tax bracket from 32 percent to 24 percent.
SPEAKER_03Okay, so I'm gonna stop you right there. So at 24 percent, I don't know that you need to be buying municipal bonds which pay a lower interest rate. You get that tax free. You're probably okay just using a more general bond fund like a BND, but okay, go ahead.
SPEAKER_01Since I'm itemizing my mortgage interest, it seems my effective interest rate on the mortgage is less than the actual 5.25 million. It makes sense.
SPEAKER_03Yeah.
SPEAKER_01And investing this money makes more sense than tying up the money in my home at the same time.
SPEAKER_03You said it all there. Yep.
SPEAKER_01What are your thoughts?
SPEAKER_03I think you're right on it. Uh, this is something that comes up all the time. Back to the pension question. Much of this is emotional. Sometimes I think about it because I think if if something were to happen to me soon, it'd be more comfortable for my wife not to have a mortgage, because just like one of those things like uh I don't have to think about it anymore. But financially, yeah, I think you're making a really good decision here. I don't I don't see any reason to hurry it up. Um 5% is not outrageous, and now we're back into the I think the high sixes for people trying to borrow money today. It is certainly not the COVID rates of you know two and a half or three. Uh sorry, I don't know if those days are ever coming back, but um no, I think this is a good strategy, and I love what you just said there, that people have a tendency to forget about liquidity. When the money's in your house, hard to get to, yeah, you could do a HELOC, yeah, you could do a reverse mortgage. There's other ways to get at it, but they're expensive. Uh they're not very convenient. Um, and I think staying liquid for people in retirement is way more important than paying off the mortgage. But uh, what's your overall take on this?
SPEAKER_01Aaron Powell I agree absolutely. And I love that he's considering his taxes and all this because it does have a pretty significant impact here. I mean, he's saving 10% on every additional dollar um in taxes, which is great. So take that same approach and make sure you look at your investments in the brokerage to see if you really need those municipal bonds.
SPEAKER_03Yeah, that would be another look because I think last time we looked at it, you really got to be pretty much in the 30s to make up for the fact with those municipal bonds that the interest rate is lower on those than they would be on more of a general type of bond fund. Yeah. So um, but overwhelm, overall, you're you're being very thoughtful about all this. It's really good. Sounds like you've got some great planning in place for your eventual retirement. I I this is really good work. Wait, you haven't even disagreed with me today. This is not like you. You must be still tired from taking the CFP exam or something.
SPEAKER_01I never disagree with you.
SPEAKER_03Oh, yeah, okay. This is this is not the typical Roxy, but uh we're still getting warmed up here. What else you got?
Portfolio Diversification Check
SPEAKER_01Okay. Uh this is from Anderson, South Carolina from Stuart. And it's a portfolio question. And he says, Hi, I just discovered your podcast and I'm enjoying it immensely. I am 61 years old, working part-time with full retirement in two years.
SPEAKER_03Two years? Wow. What are you gonna do with your time? Man, retire that early? Come on. Okay, sure. Why? Why not?
SPEAKER_01I never heard of Avantis funds until your show.
SPEAKER_03Yep.
SPEAKER_01My stock portfolio, which is okay, this is a little confusing. So my stock portfolio, which is 65% of it, I think he's saying, consists of 47% in VTI.
SPEAKER_03That's the Vanguard total US, yep, okay, yep.
SPEAKER_01And 18% in VYMI, which is an international high dividend yield fund.
SPEAKER_03Okay, let's stop you right there. So um all good with the the global or the U.S. stock fund. That's fine. That's an index fund, that's low cost, that's wide diversification. But let's talk about the international side. There's no reason to focus on dividend payers there. If you're going to just use an index approach, then well, by the way, you could just do one fund, you could just do VT and take in the whole thing. I always forget the Vanguard International uh index. Did you did you find did you look into that or not? No, that's okay. Um shaking her head. Yeah, here's the thing about the podcast shaking your head really doesn't work right on television, but uh not so much with the recorded. But here's why are you focusing on dividends, especially internationally? I don't understand that, other than, oh, I'm getting a free lunch. There's no free lunch with dividends. When when dividends are paid out, the stock price adjusts to reflect the payout. Um and by the way, when you own dividend payers, high dividend payers, you just own fewer stocks, you're less diversified, and you don't have much value in the portfolio, right? Because which is really where you want to be. And my guess is you probably missed out a lot of the rise in emerging markets the last year, which has been the best performing market. There's a lot of reasons not to focus on dividends that way. But so I'd rather have so you just have an i the U.S. fund and the international fund, the portions between those two are okay, but I don't like the fund choice. But what's your take, Roxy?
SPEAKER_01Yeah, I mean, as you said, you could you could totally do just VT in place of those, or you could do A V G E. I mean, the difference there is right now you basically have no small cap.
SPEAKER_04Yep.
SPEAKER_01Um, you have no emerging markets, and so it's mostly large, you know, North American stocks, about 75% of your stocks, and then the rest is in large, uh concentrated uh high yield, high dividends.
SPEAKER_03High dividend payers. Yeah. Again. It's reducing diversification, it's eliminating parts of the market that you should definitely be exposed to. And again, both U.S. and internationally, you're not in the smaller companies. You're not exposed to value firms. These are the places that have had the greater returns. We're not telling you to get rid of the rest of the stuff, but you want to hold large companies, you want to have small companies, you want to have growth companies, you want to have value, you want to have all those parts of the market, and by limiting that to uh to the dividends, you're you're you're you're reducing your exposure to those places you really should be.
SPEAKER_01Yeah. There's basically it's good, but you need to just add to it, right? You're missing certain assets, and just through that diversification, you can go from good to better and reduce some of that risk that you can diversify out of the portfolio. And then you do have, he says the remaining 35 percent is in B and D.
SPEAKER_03Yeah, which is the Vanguard total bond fund.
SPEAKER_01Yep, which is perfectly fine. I mean, I just looked up the trailing 12-month yield on that is like 4.2 or something like that.
SPEAKER_03Basically, by the way, everything is paying, whether it's short, long, et cetera, is paying around that 4% right now. And we're kind of at a uh might be changing our interest rate approach here, right? The Federal Reserve indicating that they may have to raise rates if inflation stays high. So we could be seeing some adjustment there. But we're fans of the Vanguard total bond. If you really wanted to get tricky, you could add in BNDX to have some international bond exposure, just a little more interest rate variation there. But BND is fine. That's a cross section of all the debt in the United States. It's it's a very fine fund.
SPEAKER_01Yeah. So VT or AVGE, I think AVG, you would get a little bit more factor tilting towards those small companies stocks, as Tom mentioned, value stocks, um, and a little bit more emerging markets. But I think either one of those would be good in place of what
Market Worries and Life Updates
SPEAKER_01you have.
SPEAKER_03Aaron Powell And so okay, those are the questions for today, but uh you talk to a lot of people every day, and we're getting ready to see our clients here in a few minutes. What are they asking about? Is it the AI bubble? Is it the interest rate conundrum? Is the continuing war in a round? What are people asking you about when you talk to them on the phone?
SPEAKER_01Aaron Powell I think everyone has this sense of, wow, it's just been such a good few years in the market and everyone's kind of holding their breath, right?
SPEAKER_03Because things could get bad because it's been so good.
SPEAKER_01Right, exactly. So it's just reminding folks that if you have a plan, we plan for downturns in the market, that you need to just stick with it, that we're going to go in a rebalance when we need to. But other than that, just live your lives. And right now, a lot of my clients seem to be buying houses and buying new cars. So maybe there's maybe they're fairly. I guess so. So it's so it's been good.
SPEAKER_03I asked all my kids recently when they were all together, do you think I spend enough of my money or too much of my money? And they all said too little. They're like, no, you should spend more of your money. Like, I'm spending it. I just got back from a European vacation. I'm doing the stuff like that, so I don't feel like I'm cheating myself. And frankly, after I get back from one of those trips, all I really want to do is go sit by my lake and read my book. Like I don't need all the the vibration of all that. So okay, but before we let you go, what are you doing to celebrate passing the certified financial planner? I think it's exam is what they call it, correct? So what what are you doing? What do you got to get out and do something fun for that? No?
SPEAKER_01Yeah, I don't know.
SPEAKER_03I guess um not doing the podcast. That's not that's no reward.
SPEAKER_01That is fun. Okay. I'm just having my time back is gonna be nice and enjoying the summertime in Seattle because it's so gorgeous out here. And some of my friends want to take me out to drinks this weekend to celebrate, so we'll probably do that.
SPEAKER_03I think you should do that. I think you should get outside every one of these days that are nice like this in Seattle. I woke up the other day and told my wife, if we got 200 days a year like this, this would be a great place. But the challenge is we only get 25. So it doesn't quite work out. But uh but listen, Roxy, thank you for doing this. We're gonna do another one of these because we had a lot of questions. Congratulations again on passing the CFP exam. That is a huge deal. Just adding to your knowledge base and um your I think I said in the description we sent to the company, not just your hard work, your dedication, but your kind nature that people really appreciate. So thank you for all those and thank you for being on the podcast.
SPEAKER_01Thanks, Tom.
SPEAKER_03And if you have more questions, go to talkingrealmoney.com. You want to meet with Roxy? Yeah, you just go there and click on guess what? Meet an advisor. It will get you right in touch and you can sit down and chat with her. We do a wonderful free portfolio review. We're kind of like we just did there, we kind of give you an x-ray of the funds you own, how much you're paying for them, how diversified you are, mistakes you might be making, and then you get to talk to one of our advisors. So you know what's gonna happen though, here every day. We're gonna be uh we're gonna be on the podcast. Talking real money.
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