Jason Moore

Jason Moore is a director known for his work across film, television, and theater. An alum of Northwestern University, he gained widespread recognition directing the hit musical film Pitch Perfect, which became a cultural phenomenon. He subsequently produced the 2015 sequel. Also in 2015, he directed the film Sisters starring comedians Tina Fey and Amy Poehler. In 2022, Moore directed the comedy film Shotgun Wedding starring Jennifer Lopez and Josh Duhamel. He is also tapped to direct the Jamie Lee Curtis led Murder She Wrote movie from Universal Pictures, slated to release in December 2027. His extensive background in television includes shows: Dawson's Creek, One Tree Hill, and Everwood. 

Before his success for the screen, Moore built a strong foundation in theater, earning a Tony Award nomination for directing the Broadway musical Avenue Q.  He also directed the musical adaptation of Shrek the Musical and Steel Magnolias.

With a career that spans mediums and genres, Moore continues to be a versatile creative voice, known for bringing wit, heart, and rhythm to every story he tells. Hear just part of his story and the journey he went through that has made it all worth it.

Transcript

SPEAKER_00 0:11

Hey, what's up, everybody? Thank you for tuning in to this conversation on Worth It with Nolan Robinson. I am sitting down with a very, very special guest today. Um, someone who I've known for a few years just through email, but we've never actually had a conversation until today. Uh he is a director, uh, an extraordinary artist. Um theater works he's done is uh includes the Tony Award nominated and winning actually uh Avenue Q along with Shrek the Musical and Steel Magnolias. Uh on television, he's done One Tree Hill, Everwood, and uh Dawson's Creek, and of course the film that we all know and love, Pitch Perfect. Uh so please welcome to the conversation, Jason Moore. Jason, so so uh so fortunate to have you here with me today. How are you?

SPEAKER_01 1:04

I'm great, thanks. Thrilled to be here with you, Nolan. Thank you.

SPEAKER_00 1:08

Thank you. Yeah, so um, as you know, and um hopefully, as the people listening know, that this conversation is just going to be about you and your career and some of the challenges and struggles that you face that have made it all worth it where you are today, and that if you could go back, you probably wouldn't change anything, but you would remember the struggles and say, yes, this is this is what made it worth it. Um, so I guess the biggest thing that I want to start this conversation off with is just asking you, how did you get into this profession? I know that you have been in it for a long time. So, where was the impetus of you wanting to be an artist?

SPEAKER_01 1:47

Uh good question. Uh particularly wanting to be a director. I mean, I was always a kid who loved movies and musicals, and I grew up in a small town in Arkansas, so I didn't have access to many theaters. There was like a children's theater in my town. But the I think particularly directing, what my mom would answer is that as a young kid, I used to produce my own birthday parties, and I would create different my birthdays at Halloween. So I would create skeletons and games in each room in a haunted house. And looking back to that now, I'm like, oh yeah, I was directing a theater production. Like each room was a different experience, and I wanted to tell a story and I wanted to entertain people. I wanted them to pay attention to me. So I like, I think I had this, and I and I liked being the school of plays when I was a kid. So I kind of had this sense of both wanting to be around theater and entertainment, but I also had a, I guess, you know, for lack of a better term, a bossy uh personality. Uh, but also, you know, at certain ages people want to be told what to do. So um, while I still had a captive audience, I made them all participate in my birthday parties and wear costumes. But as they grew out of that, I uh had to find other ways to um to uh get people to do what I wanted. So I became a director.

SPEAKER_00 3:10

Uh yeah, and you were getting so many people to do what you want them to do, from Anna Kendrick to Rebel Wilson to Tina Faye and Amy Polar. I mean, uh you just saw an opportunity and you seized it, and it all came from you, you know, directing your birthday party. Uh and it sounds like in that moment you wore a lot of different hats. I mean, you were the director, but I'm sure you were also the stage manager and you most likely the costume designer. Um, do you still wear many hats today, or are you really just primarily focused on being a director?

SPEAKER_01 3:42

That's a great question. I mean, I think I think directing is doing a little bit of everything. It's like knowing enough to talk about something, but you never know enough to actually do something. So you um so yeah, like those early days of whether it's making theater downtown or in your basement or creating a haunted house at age nine, you are kind of doing a little bit of everything. And it's helpful as a director to really understand what um or you know, uh what a uh a grip does, what a lighting designer does, what a costume designer does, what an actor does. And so kind of without realizing it, I didn't know that I wanted to be a director. I went to college, but I kind of was interested in all the aspects of theater making and filmmaking. So only did only when I finished taking classes and experimenting with all the different aspects did I realize, oh, I think I'm studying to be a director because I don't really want to concentrate on any one of these things. And I'm interested in all of them and really the the career that ends up encompassing that kind of purview of the process for making theater and film is the director.

SPEAKER_00 4:51

Yeah. And, you know, that's one thing that I don't think a lot of people realize about this profession and about the art of theater and film, um, is that all the parts work together, you know, they're cohesive. And it's like in order to really understand how to be a director, you need to understand what the stage manager is doing, or in order to really understand how to be an actor, you need to know what the writer's doing to craft those words. So, you know, they all go hand in hand. And that's something that I learned at Northwestern, which I know you are a fellow alum, go cat. Um did you study acting at Northwestern? Or like what was your I guess what was your journey there?

SPEAKER_01 5:30

Yeah, uh most of my friends were actors, and I went into the Northwestern program as a radio TV film major, and then I dragged around uh heavy film equipment in the dead of thought, this is not for me. Uh and so I became a theater major and I went into the acting program, which at the time was a three-year acting program. Uh, but I also took a lot of classes in writing, and I took design courses, which was part of the theater program, and I took adapting literature courses, which was part of another literary theater program. So again, I think I was always doing this sampler platter of different skills, funneling into I directed my first show, my junior year at Northwestern, and a second show that I wrote in my senior year. And um I think only then when I realized number one, I was not a very good actor and my friends, and two, that I did, I was sort of interested in what everyone in the room was doing as opposed to just my scene partner. So around junior or senior year, I kind of figured out oh, I think I'm being drawn into this more um, I don't know, leadership or like varied career of directing uh rather than focusing on any one element.

SPEAKER_00 6:49

I see. What was the first show that you directed in your junior year?

SPEAKER_01 6:54

First show, there was a there's a there's a a tradition at Northwestern where they do something called the Dolphin Show, which is kind of like they in their big theater, they have a one large theater, it's like a thousand people, I think. And they do a musical every year. And so I I directed a production of Big River, which is the adventures of Huckleberry Finn, an adaptation, a musical adaptation of that, um, that year. And I really sort of had no business doing that. I had never dropped anything before, uh, except my birthday parties. And so um it was a big, big musical um with a lot of effects and you know, 26 people in that company. So I kind of was like trial by fire, but I enjoyed it. I I played the piano, I don't compose music, but I understand music. So that kind of came naturally. Um and I had also always loved uh, you know, singing musical theater. I'm not a great singer at all, but um it just again, it was like directing was a natural extension of all the little things I had learned, and only we really only direct, learn to direct by directing. So I was like, well, why not? Uh and then I enjoyed it and I I think I was relatively good at it in the context that you can be good at anything in college. Uh and then on in my senior year, I I adapted a book that uh with a friend of mine that was a was a play. Um and that also taught me the kind of the writing component of creating new work. Uh, I mostly have only really ever done new plays and new movies. Once I've done a revival of a play, and then a couple times I've done like adaptations of things, like Shrek, the musical was an adaptation of Shrek the movie. Um, but generally I like to do things that feel original. So uh, you know, getting into the writing component in my senior year in that play was the kind of final piece of the puzzle. I'm not a writer, but I understand uh structure and how to talk to writers. So by the end of my time in Northwestern, I had really sampled all the different areas and I had directed something. So I finally kind of felt like, okay, I I'm starting, I have the beginning toolkit of how to be a director. And then, you know, it all changed when I got out of school.

SPEAKER_00 9:09

Gotcha. Thanks for saying that. I mean, there are a couple things that you just mentioned that I think are kind of powerful um in in terms of those who are starting off and even those who are continuing their um their careers. You said, you know, you're not a composer, but you do know music, and you're not a writer, but you do know, you know, how to um how writers do what they do. Um to me, you know, just hearing about your career so far, it seems like you've always put yourself in a position where you can learn about something because you know the knowledge, even though you may not do it, it will make it better. Is that is that correct?

SPEAKER_01 9:49

I think it's true. I think a big part of directing is knowing what you don't know. So you so let's say you, you know, it's set in, you know, is during the French Revolution, or you're you're directing something that involves circus acts, or you know, that's it's always kind of obvious, like, oh, I don't know enough about that period in history, or I don't know enough about tumbling and gymnastics. So you are always trying to supplement your base knowledge with what other people do. And it and it changes from project to project. And so, you know, there are things that you can transfer from one project to another, but I think directing is always a process of going, what don't I know? And that's what makes it exciting because that's where you get to learn something and you get to fill in your gap, or you get to collaborate with a circus choreographer, or you get to collaborate with the dramaturg to teach you about the French Revolution. So, you know, knowing what you don't know and then learning to get better at it is part of how you build your career and your skill set. I directed a movie a couple of years ago that was I did primarily primarily so I could build my action movie, helicopters and boats and exploding cars and things like that. And I did it because I didn't know how to do that. And so again, I kind of did that movie specifically to learn that skill set because you really can kind of always be adding to your charm bracelet of skills to be a right to be a director.

SPEAKER_00 11:14

I like that. It's kind of like you know, stepping stones. It's you know, I will say I'm guilty of this, and I know some of my peers are guilty of this too. But, you know, usually we're like, oh, you know, we have this this play in mine or this movie in mine that we really want to do, or you know, that we really want to write, and it's gonna have these elements and you know, X, Y, Z, this, that, the third. Um and yes, that it is okay to want to make that movie happen or want to make that play happen. But what can I do on the stepping stones leading up to that that will make sure that when I do get to that point, I know everything that I should know, or at least if I don't know it, I know who to ask, or I know where to find the answer. Um, so I think that's I'm gonna start using that a bit more. Um and you kind of explained it in how you just you know surround yourself with things that can supplement your knowledge as a director. What if it comes down to I don't know, you're filming something and you've directed so many times, you've done this for so many years, and it's a scene that should be easy for you, but it's not. Or it should be a focus that you that you should be so familiar with, but you just or uh that you just don't know what to do, or a way that you're lighting a scene, you're like, this isn't working. Someone in your position who has you know been honored, you know, with his work and you know, work that people love to see. How do you approach those moments when you truly don't know something that you feel like, oh, I should know how to do this? You know, how do you approach it? Who do you talk to? How do you get through it?

SPEAKER_01 12:48

That's a really good question. I think, I mean, for me, prepping is being a good director and having a plan going in, knowing where you're gonna put the trucks or the lights, knowing how you're gonna run technical rehearsals, where people are gonna do their costume changes, there's sort of all the logistic parts of being prepped. And then there's creative parts about being prepped, understanding the scene, understanding the emotional turns in the scene. But inevitably on the day, whether it's in rehearsal or technical uh rehearsals or in previews on Broadway or you're shooting something, it doesn't go according to plan. And, you know, I would say that's not most of the time, but it's it's a lot of the time. Um, because hopefully if you've planned well and everybody's on the same page, it does go a version of what you you hope will happen. But inevitably you get to moments, and sometimes it's logistical, but I think what you're really asking is more like where when you have a real sense of like something's wrong and I can't identify what it is. Um I think I would go always back to a couple things. One, the script, the writing. Like, okay, what was the scene about? Did I make a mistake by staging her cooking dinner while she's having this conversation because she needs to look somebody in the eye? And I've created a situation where she can't connect with them. Or is this um scene not funny enough? And therefore, maybe I haven't created an environment on the set that feels relaxed and comfortable. So then I might make go secretly tell the crew to laugh out loud a few times. I'll do, I'll do several, like, let's do one just for fun, let's do one where you improv. So part of it is part of it, and then the third, another big option is asking people around you, it's this isn't working. I can't quite figure out why. What's your instinct? Um, I think admitting what you don't know was probably my like that was when I became a director that I had more confidence, which is I used to think that I needed, because you're the director, you're in a leadership position, everyone's asking you questions. You sort of can get in this habit of feeling like you should know all the answers. And you know, we have healthy enough egos that sometimes we think that we do have all the answers. But part of it is realizing that, like, number one, you don't have to know everything and what a relief that is. Like, there's a moment you can think, like, oh, I'm falling short because I don't know all the answers. But once you admit I'm not supposed to know all the answers, then you're fine. And then you're like, oh, I just need help. And how fun to collaborate and ask for help. And then also once you've done that and you've gotten over the hump that you're supposed to know everything, then what you start to do is you trust your instincts and you trust the people around you so that you're prepared for things not to go well, but you're prepared to trust that when you get there, you will be able to admit what you don't know and you'll have the people around you to help you solve it. So I feel like it, I probably spent a good 10 years of my career pretending like I had all the answers. And I think that uh it I became a better director when I admitted that I didn't have them all.

SPEAKER_00 15:54

I like that. And there's an element of trust that you kind of spoke to in what you just said. Trust in the people around you, trust in what you can do, um, and just trust that that collaboration, you know, as long as it's worked on, you it will always be there. Uh, how old do you think you were when you kind of started to realize all of this? Like, was this a an early career realization or um after some years?

SPEAKER_01 16:22

No, I mean, it was actually after great success. I mean, I had I directed my first Broadway show and felt like I hadn't gotten to be a good director in the sense that like when I directed that, I thought, oh, I'm directing on Broadway. I'm supposed to know, have all the answers. And so I really like overplanned and I and I pretended like I had answers. And I look back at that now and I kind of cringe. It's during Avenue Q. I mean, I got a lot of things right, but I cringe because I think, you know, what opportunities did I miss by saying, hey, I don't get I don't know what to do here. Plus, I was a new career director. I'm not supposed to know how to do all that stuff. You know, you want to populate at any stage of career, you want to populate your team with people who are smarter than you because you're always gonna learn from them. That's gonna be fun, and they're always gonna improve your ideas. And so um, even if you have great ideas, they'll at least be able to execute them and make them better. So I wouldn't, I would say that I really only learned I mean, I directed uh I directed Avenue Q when I was 33. And I think about 10 years later, when I'd had a couple experiences where I was in over my head on certain things, and I was like, oh, it's better to just admit what you don't know. I mean, this is also true in life, right? Like it's better to admit when you need help or you need support because then people know how to help you and you feel less alone. And so uh, and then you yield a better results. So I would say it's probably about age 40, which is also kind of a life event, which is like, oh, I'm now halfway through my life. I'm old and I know more than 40 years of people behind me. Right. So it's also just kind of trusting the stage of life you're at, which is like it's okay not to know everything. I'm never gonna know everything. So that's only really something that I could have learned by having spent a couple of years thinking I needed to know how to do everything.

SPEAKER_00 18:21

Yeah, and I would say that's something that people my age do all the time. It's you know, I'm 26 and there are things that I feel like I should know how to do, but don't. And there are things that I don't know how to do, but really want to, and sometimes I pretend I do know how to do them. Um, but it's comforting to know that someone who has had such a you know the longevity of your career, being able to understand what you know and what you don't know, and being confident in not knowing something and saying, hey, I need help. You know, I I I need to figure out how to get through this. Um and uh ooh, I'm so sorry. The train of thought has left the station.

SPEAKER_01 19:04

Um but I think I was gonna add one idea onto that, which is that um okay, now I just lost my train of thought.

SPEAKER_00 19:11

Twins.

SPEAKER_01 19:14

What we were just saying, oh uh what we were just saying, Nolan.

SPEAKER_00 19:18

Uh just talking about the um how you learned what you learned when you were 40, you're halfway through your life, and yeah.

SPEAKER_01 19:25

Uh I'll have to come back to that too. What kind of thing?

SPEAKER_00 19:29

All right, great. Um but uh there is what was that? I'm sorry.

SPEAKER_01 19:35

All the stuff we don't know. We can't remember what we're doing.

SPEAKER_00 19:38

Exactly. It's very meta right now. Um but the so one question that I'm curious about is when someone hands you a script and you love it and they say I want you to direct it, and you know, you you sign the contract, whatever, you're directing the piece. What is the the first immediate thing that you do right after? I think that's redundant. First immediate what's it the the immediate thing you do right after?

SPEAKER_01 20:05

Um your question is what do I do after I've gotten the job? It sounds like that's what you when you find out you're um I I think it's a I mean there's a lot of things. I mean, I think that part of it is to sit down with a script and figure out what is it that I love about this and which areas do I want to amplify about it and what does it mean to me? Uh, like what's the story I'm telling within this script? Because the writer's written run version. And in theater, more often as a director, you're asked to help the playwright illuminate what their intention was. In filmmaking, you're more often looking at the script as a blueprint, and you're going to essentially put your version of that forward. Um, so things can change a lot based on how you shoot something or how you cast something. So you're a little bit more of an author as a as a film director. So, but either way, whether you're maneuvering inside a playwrights paradigm or you're kind of a little bit more of an autocrat in terms of deciding what you want to do as a feature director, um, is like what do what is this, what are the core themes of this that are important to me? And if as soon as I can identify that, then I can figure out how to organize everything. And then I then the next question I ask is what what who where is this? I mean, it's it's sort of a marketplace question, but it's like, who am I making this for? Is this a big four quadrant, you know, Marvel movie? Is this a small coming of age niche storytelling? Is this for musical theater lovers? Is this for um men, for women? Because what you're also looking to do is like, where do my instincts connect with an audience? Like, how is This is going to uh say something to an audience? If you can't you can't address every audience, so you have to kind of think like, who is this for? And I also believe that and a good example is something like Pitch Perfect, which is that was a very niche movie that we thought we were just making for a subset of people, meaning a cappella singers, but but it was so specific that it kind of spoke to everybody. So being as specific to your own self about what you're trying to say, and then also thinking about who you're saying that to um is a starting point that to me all the um choices that you make follow suit from that. So it's it's it's where do I fundamentally connect with this? And then from there, you can ask the questions like, so what's the budget? Who am I hiring? How beautiful does it look? How refined does it look? Um uh what sometimes one of the first questions you ask, honestly, too, is what changes do I want to make? Like if this is the script, very rarely do you get a script and you go, This is great. I'm gonna direct, you know, this is it. So another big question is the that can be the outgrowth of those. What am I connecting to is like, what do I want to improve on, or how do I want to shape this thing to make it um more distinctly what I'm trying to say? Uh and hopefully that doesn't go against what the writer was writing. Hopefully it's supplemental. Um, although sometimes there are cases where you want to steer a script in a new direction, it's not like reinventing it, but you just want to emphasize certain things.

SPEAKER_00 23:34

For sure.

SPEAKER_01 23:36

Yeah, where do I connect? What do I want to change? Where do I connect? Where do I what do I want to change? And then to me, like when you've made those fundamental decisions, everything else will follow suit from those.

SPEAKER_00 23:49

That's beautiful. And you you had talked about, you know, when you're making the script or when you're when you have a script and you're making something, the question is like, who are you making it for? And I want to ask you, do you think one of the people that you make things for is yourself? Like, are you a part of that equation as well?

SPEAKER_01 24:08

I mean, I think you, yeah, in a way it's inherent, right? But it's a good thing that you pointed out, which is like as I the way I answered your question was I first asked myself, what do I connect to about this? Because then that really means that if I'm the viewer of this, not that not only am I the director, but I'm the viewer. So what do I want the viewer to feel? And then also what am I responding to? And that that usually means this is something I would like. So you are the audience, and so it's a helpful way to think about it sometimes too, which is like um to get outside yourself a little bit. It's like thinking, like, well, what is what is the Jason who isn't a director? What is the speaking to? Because sometimes you get, I know I get caught in directing, you get caught in a lot of like the logistics and the I'm storytelling as opposed to like also, but what I'm trying to do is create a sense of wonderment and newness in my audience. So can I forget everything I know about lighting and story architecture and studio politics and think about what it would be like for this viewer to have this experience? Because ultimately, uh, I mean, you know, the the work that I make is definitely more like um wants to connect to an audience, wants to make them laugh, wants to make them feel something. Not all filmmaking in theater is that way. Sometimes people want to say something that's difficult and the audience needs to find their way in. It's more the audience's responsibility. I would say I make projects where I'm really considering the audience and trying to make them a part of the collaboration and make them enjoy it. So I think that also kind of like figuring out who you're making it for starts to tell you they're a big part of your collaborators, your audience. And so, like, what am I uh how do I make them feel something aside from all the least sort of like logistics of this filmmaking?

SPEAKER_00 26:00

That's awesome. And you had mentioned with like Pitch Perfect, it was so niche. Um, you thought you were just going for a particular um group of people, but it ended up being so specific that it just everyone connected with it. I do remember when I saw Pitch Perfect, um, I was in seventh grade, I was 12 years old. It was a Sunday. Uh my mom never takes us to see movies on Sunday, so it was already a special occasion. And I the only actress I really knew in the movie um was Brittany Snow, uh, and of course Anna Kendrick a little bit, but I was locked in and I was blown away by what was on the screen. You would you were able to connect with a 12-year-old when you you really were only trying to connect with you know the collegiate a cappella scene. So that is just a testament to your directing and the storytelling and just how powerful one that story is, but also just speaking to what you talked about before. It's like everything supplementing each other, you know, the the writing and the directing and um just the gaffing and everything that happens behind the scenes that people don't really know about is really when it all works together, you get something like pitch perfect, which ended up being a franchise. Um, so just wanted to congratulate you on that.

SPEAKER_01 27:19

Um you say that um like you weren't my target audience, right? A 12-year-old boy is not who I was. But who I was thinking about, and this is sounds like a joke because it is funny, but it's also was the truth. I was always like, I'm making this movie for 14-year-old girls and 40-year-old gay men. Because that's that's who I was at the time. I was a 40-year-old gay man. So, like all the kind of quippy, funny movies like Clueless and Bring It On and Mean Girls, those were um, those aren't only for gay men or or for women. They're for everybody. But that was my way in. And so the more specific I could be, like, who am I speaking to, then I think that's also where other people become interested because it's like, that's so interesting. What are those people doing over there? And the pitch perfect has enough that's very familiar, right? It's a competition movie. Everybody understands a sports competition. So there's a lot of easy points of entry. Everybody likes pop music in one in one fashion or another. Oh, sorry, my sorry. So uh everybody, so uh let me repeat that. So, you know, the form of Pitch Perfect is also very accessible, even though the the tone of it was kind of niche. It's a sports movie, it's it's a sports competition movie. It's got pop music, it's got a lot of very accessible things for what they call four quadrants, like you know, older men, younger men, older women, younger men, younger women. But there was something about the specificity of how they talk to each other um that felt really specific to uh women of a certain age, younger age at that time. And so, you know, it's it's like most things in creating art, the more specific you are, the more universal it can become. Not always, but it the more universal it can become.

SPEAKER_00 29:10

For sure. And I will say too that that movie got me into the a cappella scene at Northwestern, which I believe was one of the inspirations behind it, right? It was Northwestern and uh one other school.

SPEAKER_01 29:23

Northwestern uh was originally based on a book by a really great writer named Mickey Rapkin, who's now also a filmmaker, and uh it followed three real a cappella teams, and they were one of them was not Northwestern, but since I went to Northwestern, my point of reference were the Northwestern a cappella teams. But if if I'm being really truthful, it was based on um uh the BL BLZUBs of University of Virginia.

SPEAKER_00 29:50

Uh uh Yeah, they were on the the sing off, right?

SPEAKER_01 29:53

Yeah, they were.

SPEAKER_00 29:54

Yeah, uh-huh.

SPEAKER_01 29:55

Uh a couple of the Yale Wiffin Poofs, a couple other more sort of famous acapella people.

SPEAKER_00 30:00

Gotcha. Okay, well now I can put that to rest because ever since I saw that movie, I'm like, yeah, this is totally Northwestern.

SPEAKER_01 30:07

Um, I mean, I didn't I wasn't in college a cappella, so I had to read I was in musical theater, which is they were even the more nerdy people. Um uh so I didn't really know much about it, but um I actually my experience in theater kind of gave me a sense of what being an a cappella was like, which is like singing with your friends and being obsessive about songs and getting things right and bursting into song in the cafeteria and stuff like that.

SPEAKER_00 30:34

Yeah, it sounds like the dreams I have every night. Yeah. Um so we're getting you know closer towards the end of our you know, our uh time together. Um so I kind of just want to talk about some of the the difficulties and the challenges um that you probably have had to navigate getting to this moment that you know made it worth it. Um were there any moments along your your journey, especially when you were younger, um, where you were humbled or something happened that you didn't want it to and it kind of made you reevaluate something. It's like, oh well I'm gonna do this differently next time, or you know, I'm not gonna say yes to this because this just put me into uh a mental state that I didn't want to be in. Like, were there any of those moments where you're like, oh, that humbled me?

SPEAKER_01 31:24

Oh, so many. God, I mean a career in the theater is all about being humbled and it's about humility uh as well. Um and I think at some level, if you're if you're always learning something, that also means you're always failing at something. So if you stick to what you know and you you know, you only you're not putting yourself in a vulnerable situation, whether you know it or not, you you're not gonna really be that humble. Being humble requires you to be proud first. So I'm gonna have a lot of pride and think I know what I'm doing, or think I have the answer. And then the humility or the humbleness comes from, oh, I didn't have the answer, or I wasn't making the right choice, or I misread this situation. Uh so I've had many, many of those and will continue to have them. I think, I think some of the some of the mistakes I made early in my career that fall in that category were related to what I was saying before, which is like I thought I had needed to have all the answers. And so I wasn't hiring people around me that were smarter than me. I was sort of not that I wanted to be the smartest person in the room, but I was like, I wanted people to do what I wanted them to do. And then I was like, oh, wait a second. This person is a choreographer. I am not a dancer. Why would I think that I should hire somebody who's better at what you do to improve upon your ideas? Um, I think part of the reason we become directors, honestly, is because we aren't necessarily as good at one thing. There are many directors who that's an exception for. Some directors can shoot their own movies, some directors can edit their own movies, some directors can write their own movies. So some people can specialize, but I think more of us are probably a little bit like there's always going to be somebody better as the head of the department. So to me, I think I I think I was humbled. It's part of the same question, question you were talking about before, which is um humbled thinking I had to have all the answers, or that I did have all the answers, and then realizing, oh, I should have had humility from the beginning with from the beginning, and just said, I don't know what I'm doing here, or you're gonna make this so much better than I ever would. Why don't you take my idea and improve upon it? And that also requires a lot of confidence to go, hey, you know what? My idea is not the A idea. I'm gonna tell you it, and I'm gonna be embarrassed to tell you my B idea. But that is the journey to get to the A idea, to get the improved one. So it also requires, and also that's what you'd have less of at an early stage in your career, maybe less confidence in some ways, or you have overconfidence in others. Uh, I had a lot of early career success. Like my first Broadway show won the Tony Award for Best Musical. That's a pretty great thing. But it what it also did is it created, it put me in a situation where I thought suddenly everything had to win a Tony. And that's not a great place to create from. Uh, or people hired me thinking they were gonna get you know, a certain kind of result. And those are the exceptions to the rule, where it's just experimenting and making things is the way to move through your career. So sometimes being like I was a little bit overly confident after I had that experience. It was like, well, look, my first musical, one best musical. How hard could it be? By making other things that you know didn't uh they were also great shows. So it's they're they're just the result of your work is um is the reason you do for it. But eventually you get to a point where just like to have the opportunity to make things and to keep going forward and to be humbled is the process. Um, but yeah, there's there's plenty of opportunities for humility. I will constantly be finding them.

SPEAKER_00 35:22

Right. Yeah, and you had just mentioned it. I mean, it's it's really about the opportunity, right? You know, as it it doesn't even have to be with it performing arts, it's you know, with any profession that there is, it's like we all want that opportunity. The opportunity to of course show people what we can do, but the opportunity to fail, you know, to learn something. It's um I'm I'm young, um, but every day I I wake up and you know I I get to go into a rehearsal room or I even get to go work out at the gym, or you know, I get to do something, I get to write, or I get to do something different. It's like, okay, well, how can I maximize this time to the best of my ability? One, and two, how can I approach something that I don't know, but I at least have the opportunity to discover and understand and and grow from it, you know, and build from it. So I do appreciate your insight on that. It's it's incredible. And oh, sorry.

SPEAKER_01 36:21

I heard someone describe this is not a new concept, but it's like um, you know, most people, and especially directors or people who have visions, can imagine something in their head, what it looks like, but the hard part of the job is not imagining it, it's executing it. And what ends up happening at our early stage of a career is we imagine something sophisticated and beautiful, and then we try to do it, and it falls way short of that goal. And part of as opposed to being discouraged by that, understanding that closing that gap between what you see and what you're able to do is the journey, right? Like, and I I mean, I don't, I would have to ask this question a different way, but I'm sure Martin Screw says he thinks the same thing, which is like, oh, that didn't look like I wanted it to look. How do I get it to look the way I want it to look? Where you're always trying to improve on what your actual skill level is, or sometimes that's the reason people take projects and shoot them in the dead of winter in Antarctica, because they're like, I want to be challenged. I want what I imagine to be above what I'm able to execute. And therefore, I need people to help me close the gap of execution. I that was another point which I was like, oh, right, okay, so I'm always going to be in this place of trying to improve what I'm doing. That that makes doesn't make you feel like you're at a deficit. It makes me feel like, oh, this is the job. This is what I do. I'm I'm I'm I have a vision and I'm constantly trying to meet the vision and improve upon it.

SPEAKER_00 37:55

It's kind of like, you know, when I started becoming an adult, I I didn't think things would just, you know, click like that. I thought I would be able to get through things more easily. Like I have more wisdom, or you know, I've been able to gain this knowledge. Um but I'm like, no, it's not like that. The entire point of being an adult is that all of this will start to uh fall on you. You'll start to face more obstacles and more challenges, and it's not gonna go away. But the point is you find better ways to get through it, you find better ways to understand it because you're just getting smarter. You know, it's kind of like playing guitar. You know, when you learn guitar, you build up calluses, and then the calluses just you know help you with your playing further, even like lifting weights. Um so it's just uh it was just a you know like nice little connection there. And I do want oh, were you gonna add something to that?

SPEAKER_01 38:51

I agree with you. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 38:54

Oh, sorry, my Zoom just just did something weird. Um there is actually something I want to share with you that I I don't know if you remember this, but um for those watching and listening, um, when I was a senior in college, I completed a short film musical um during COVID. So just like Jason was talking about early about you know, kind of shrinking, you know, the gap um in your mind. That was my first instance of that. But a day before filming started, I emailed Jason and I asked him for filming advice, and I use that advice not only with that, but everything that I've done since then and will continue to use moving forward. Um and just one of the highlights of that, um, it was beautiful. First, um you said rely on those around you who know more than you, which you said a couple times in this conversation. Be transparent about what you need help with and lean on collaboration. It's how we feel less alone. Directing can be lonely, make a family. Know that it won't be perfect and rarely goes like you think. That is the process. It doesn't mean something is wrong with it or you make sure you stay the leader and get everyone working towards the same goal. Sometimes that's easy to forget when you're stressed. And again, have fun at every chance you can. Have a blast. Uh it was it was exactly what I needed. Um and I remember when I got into the set the next day, things were already going wrong. I'd lost my slate, um some actors were late, and I'm like, oh what is happening? Some glass broke. It was just it was just not what I wanted it to be. But I just remembered your words, and it's like, stay the leader, remember um you're making a family, get everyone on the same page, um, because what matters isn't exactly how the film gets made, it's that the film gets made. Um so to those watching and listening right now, um, just know that the pain and the heartache and the challenges and the struggles that you may go through to make a film, to write something, to act something, it will all be worth it because it will lead to something that you will be immensely proud of. And I'm sure Jason, you can speak you know, endlessly about that. Um so thank you for sending that email.

SPEAKER_01 41:17

Oh, good. Well, I I'm I'm glad I I I probably should post that on my wall because it's advice that I need to hear too.

SPEAKER_00 41:24

Yeah. Yeah, well, um just one more question, um, and then I will let you go. But what keeps you creating? It's a very tough time in our world, um, and we are seeing you know a lack of light in lots of places. Um, and you like to create things that make people laugh, that make people feel good. So in moments like this, what keeps you doing that?

SPEAKER_01 41:54

Um in moments like this, I mean, uh I guess the fundamental thing of like keeping creating is um to me, it's a life force. Creation is about curiosity. And so I'm curious, what would that person do? What would it be like to live in you know uh uh you know the first century in China? What would it be like to do? So curiosity is what life is, is like I wonder what that would be like, and staying engaged with life is being curious. So part of it is like sort of a parallel for being just a human, which is like if I stop being creative, it means I stop being curious, and that means I stop living. So that sounds a little like hoiti, but I do think I do think it's sort of ingrained in us to like want to be curious and create new things. And that can mean your annual gardening trip. It can mean the meal that you make for your family, everything. Rick Rubin talks about this in his book, which is everything is an act of creation, the the the route that you take to go to work, the route that you choose to drive. Um, so that creation is about curiosity and solving and observing. And so that is a just a part of being human. So the part of your question that's like addressing what is how do you keep creating now? Um I do create things that I I think that movies and theater um can create community. And so whether that's the audience in a Broadway show or the people who discover you know a movie on streaming 10 years later, that the sense of knowing that you're creating a community, both in the family that you're making, meaning the people that you went on set with and the that community that you formed, and then the community that you speak to, that is also a fundamental human value, which is connection. So, like really it's like the fundamentals of being human curiosity, connection, inclusion, love. know all those things kind of keep you creating and then look I also it's important never to make it all sound quite so lofty like you know my I'm lucky enough to say that my creating is how I put a roof over my head and so like you know part of it is sometimes like I need employment and what does that look like and how do I and that's that's a career it's a choice that you make all during your career. Sometimes you make it more at the beginning but choosing you know what how do I um I keep creating because I want to be able to keep creating later so I can pay my bills. So uh you know what what am I um part of it's also practical because I think most people want to have who create would prefer to make their living creating. And so also part of it is like how can I make things so that I can pay for my life so keep creating. So some of it's practical too it's not just all lofty ambition. Some of it's like I create creating because I need to for my soul and I keep creating because I need to for my bank account.

SPEAKER_00 45:05

Yep it's kind of like uh I see those red carpet answers especially with like Marvel actors and um you know the reporter asks you know what drew you to the script? It's like why did you want to do it? And there are some people like the money like I I have bills that I need to pay. I have to put you know put a roof over my head. So it's it's really it takes a lot of the glamour that you know supposed glamour out of you know a life in the arts uh because it is just like every other job you're just creating um to you know support yourself. And final thing I totally forgot to mention this. So Jason is one of the directors of the upcoming uh Legally Blonde prequel series uh what was it like being a part of that legacy? Because Legally Blonde as a movie as a musical as a franchise it's just it's just it's you know a tattoo on all of our lives. So what was it like to tap into that?

SPEAKER_01 46:06

Yeah legally blonde not surprisingly if you look at legally blonde mean girls pitch perfect you can see the through lines there. And so uh I was a giant fan of that movie. I know every word. So it was a real honor to be called in on it and to be offered it because it did feel like oh my God I get to be part of that legacy something that's really and I do love the musical as well. I think the story is excellent. So it felt really exciting and I had you know I'd been a part of Pitch Perfect sort of became its own like brand and franchise and I had been part of the Shrek franchise there is something that happens when you do work on a legacy project or project that's popular is that you don't have the benefit of no eyeballs on you. Like when we made Avenue Q and Pitch Perfect no one gave a shit what we were doing. No one was watching us so part of like being a discovery was um that no one was watching us no one expected anything. So suddenly we were offering this surprising thing when you work on a legacy project you have all a lot of eyeballs on you. And so suddenly there's like expectations and you have to make people happy and you have to deliver what they want and then improve upon what what they want more of so it's for look the the kind of again the red carpet answer is what a what a gift I got to work with Reese Murphy, one of my you know all time dreams it was an amazing collaboration it was found an amazing group of actors um but also when you ask what is it like to work on something especially something that you love and that other people love is it becomes a more of a tricky road to navigate because you're actually trying to satisfy people from day one. And that is um that's a weird place to create from because it sort of means like you're asking yourself well what would satisfy me but also what would satisfy five fans of legally blonde. So that can be both freeing and it can be inhibiting at the same time.

SPEAKER_00 48:08

For sure.

SPEAKER_01 48:09

Yeah well I I'm really excited about it. So that was the good news is like we navigated our way through that um and came up with something that I think feels both original and uh like a good homage to the um to to to the original movie. But um it you know when you work on a big thing like that that people know it comes with a a lot of it comes with a lot of complications.

SPEAKER_00 48:33

For sure. Yeah I mean because I mean in this day and age with social media I mean everyone everyone can create their own work but also everyone can be a critic. So it's like navigating those critics uh but being proud of the work that you did with the people you got to collaborate with. I mean that's all we can really ask for in this business. So I'm excited and I'm you know I'm wearing my pink today. I didn't even notice that was yes yeah well uh Jason I just want to thank you so much for sitting down and having this chat with me. Um it's very insightful um it's great to hear your story um to hear the the wisdom and advice that you've been able to cultivate and gather um in the years that you've been doing this um and giving some hope to people like me who are just starting off or even you know another fire uh in the belly of people who've been doing this for a while. Um so thank you for what you do it really doesn't go unnoticed. Um I know sometimes directing and just being an artist can be thankless um because you have all the critics but uh you have a supporter here so thank you and um yeah and thank you everyone for listening um I'll I hope you tune in next time thanks no