What do you do when the Bible doesn't tell you what to do? (Ep. 15)

Should a Christian abstain from alcohol? Is fasting necessary or forbidden for the Christian life? Can my kids go trick-or-treating on Halloween? There are many questions that Christians wrestle with. Not all of these questions are answered directly by one Bible passage. Many times, a number of passages speak to the topic. Other times, there is freedom for a Christian to choose what to do in that circumstance.

In this episode, Pastors Chris and Tony talk through the question, "What do you do when the Bible doesn't tell you what to do?

Transcript

SPEAKER_02 0:00

Spare the alcohol for those who are suffering in the in the Proverbs. But then Paul gives the encouragement for this sake of personal health to to drink some alcohol. Jesus blesses a wedding by giving them alcohol, and he he uses it as a vessel for bringing his blood to people. Picture of heaven in the home and welcome to Double Portion, a video devotional tool presented by two Lutheran pastors in Southern California. My name is Chris Flugeft. I serve as a pastor at Grace Lutheran Church in Yorgalinda, California, joined by my brother, Pastor Tony Flugheft, who serves at Christ the Vine Lutheran Church in Temecula, California. Tony, you wanted to uh lead us into our topic today.

SPEAKER_01 1:04

Yeah, so on Sunday during our church's Bible study, I'm not sure exactly how this came up, but I remember that I was making the point to the congregation that I don't always like the way that pastors talk about what they'll call root words or Greek root meanings, actually, the root meaning of the Greek, because language has meaning in use. Sometimes I think there's this temptation for people to take a word and they they try to detach it from the use in the sentence, and they'll say, Well, here's the root meaning of this word. But I said, maybe that's etymologically true, but is that actually in anyone's minds? And now this can be complicated because I also don't want to over-isolate the use and say that there isn't baggage outside of the use, because there are meanings that are brought in from use. And so it is a delicate balance when it comes to language, and a lot of this is just intuitive. But I think as humans who communicate through words, we need to think about this at least a little bit. Maybe someone doesn't want to overthink about overthink it. But I think at the very least, what we can say is that we can't just determine meaning on our own. We communicate in a in a society, and these words do have meaning outside of ourselves, even outside of the way that I use it. So maybe speaking away the point that I was making originally, because there is meaning in youth, of course, but there's also meaning in context.

SPEAKER_02 2:49

Yeah, so what you're kind of getting at is we can't just grab a uh a Greek word and say, well, this word could mean this because it has that potential meaning in other uses. You have to consider the use that we're currently looking at. Uh in exegetical fallacies, D.A. Carson says uh words are stupid things outside of their use. I wouldn't quite go as far as he's saying because uh other uses certainly come into this current instance, but what you can't say is, well, this word means something in that time and in that usage, therefore uh that changes how we interpret it here because there is a dynamic use potentially of certain words, and uh you you have to recognize this context is gonna dictate my understanding and determining which definition to use.

SPEAKER_01 3:50

Yeah. And so connecting with this idea though of talking about our context in a society, the word does have meaning based upon how the receiver understands that word. So I can say something and intend one thought, but if the word is used a different way, well, of course that impacts things. And I don't know if YouTube is upset with this word, but the word gay would be an example where you've got the old Christmas songs where it means happy. Well, obviously, in context, that means something different, and maybe that does connect to that original point was just because that word can mean happy doesn't mean that I can insert that meaning today, or it would be unwise to insert that meaning today. So communication is more than just the words the way you want to use them. I can't say, like, take someone else's words, completely redefine them and use them in the way that I want to use them and think that's clear. It's not. And and so um I wanted to connect that with this thought about adiafra. Um, adiaphra is a word that is maybe every Wells high schooler's favorite word, these gray issues, there's no right or wrong, no thus saith the Lord, uh, indifferent is maybe not the right word, but is the idea people talk about indifferent matters, middle issues, um, where we've got freedom to go one way or another. But when it comes to matters of adiafra, one thing that we need to consider is what we were just talking about words, your context, how this action or decision would be received. Just because I intended something doesn't mean that others would receive it that way. And it does matter what other people think. No matter how much we want to be individuals, it does matter what other people think.

SPEAKER_02 5:50

Yeah, much like when we look at a text and we want to understand it, we have to understand the intentions of the writer, but we also have to understand the times of the writer too, because that's going to uh help us understand better his intentions. Uh so then what you're drawing out for that is what we can't do is take a practice that is connected to what other people are doing or saying, and then disconnect it from them and say, I'm going to do this thing, but it has nothing to do with what they're saying over there. This probably means a lot in the church world, as uh what might be one of the pitfalls of uh talking about Adi Afra is we so often just talk about church governance, we talk about uh worship, but it it speaks to more than that. But what we need to recognize is there are so many other facets to it in regard to our confession of faith, in regard to the context that we operate in, that maybe we can say, this is my intention behind that, but your your intention can't be totally divorced from the use of everyone else.

SPEAKER_01 7:08

Yeah. And so I think when we get into the obvious examples of Adi Aphra and how we've made decisions in the past, it might help to make it more concrete, and then we can just quickly give a couple of those examples and then move to the more personal examples of Christian living. So, one obvious example is that we sprinkle water for baptisms, we don't immerse. There is a reason, there is a context that has kind of dictated our examples, and it's not just the practicality of not having a dunk tank in our worship settings. Um, there is the context of those who have commanded that we do these things. So, biblically speaking, we are free in this matter. There is no thus saith the Lord. Some people will point to Jesus' baptism and they'll say, Well, Jesus came up out of the water. Technically speaking, doesn't have to mean that he was immersed in the water. It means that he was standing in the Jordan River and stepped up out of the water. Some people who are more familiar with the Jordan River and geography and all these things have indicated to me that actually the flow of the Jordan River wouldn't really be that much to immerse, anyways. I don't know if I really want to get into that because I'm I'm actually ignorant as to the flow of the Jordan River at different seasons of the year. But no matter what, we need to understand that we're not recreating an event. We're taking the principles and applying it. And so, what are the principles about baptism? Uh, we need the water, the word, um, and and we we apply it. We apply the waters of baptism, speaking that baptismal formula through which God promises to work, to create, uh, to give new birth, uh, to to drown and make alive. So there is no specific command about the form and how you do that. Obviously, you need to apply the water to someone, and it can't uh I I was reading something recently, and it was talking about like there there obviously are some more specifics about this. Like, um, you can't just apply it to a kid because like a kid could be a goat. So, like, there is like a proper receiver of the baptism, but there's no um command about the form. Uh can you immerse? Can you sprinkle? Either one's fine. I might actually contend that immersing's a better picture, but we live in a context where there are people who put the emphasis on the wrong syllable and they make baptism all about the thing that you need to do for God, therefore you need to do it properly, and therefore they say you must immerse. There's some faulty exegesis about miss um bad understandings of the word baptismo um in Greek, and they say you have to immerse. And and if you don't immerse, your baptism is not legitimate. So we would say actually, at that point, it really doesn't become an a diaphragm anymore. Um some people might disagree. I do know people who have like done immersion baptisms, um, but it really isn't an adiafra at this point because there are people who are demanding, they're adding laws to the Bible, demanding that we immerse. And so um, as Article 10 of the Formula Concord says, there is no um adiafra in the case of scandal confession. It is now a matter of confession of faith. And so that's a concrete specific church example of how we think through some of these things. It is originally indifferent, but context helps to determine our action. And so we're saying Adi Aphra is not indifferent. We have a context that we need to consider that does help to determine our course of action.

SPEAKER_02 11:01

Yeah, so although the the German would be like Middle Dinger, uh, these are middle things, it doesn't make mean they're totally indifferent things. The our practices have confession to other people. And although there may be more beauty in the practice of immersion, baptism, uh, there's a beautiful testimony in saying, where is the true power? The true power is not in how much water or what I am doing, right? So often when people push for baptism by immersion, it's about how big of a show can I make it, because this is my declaration to God of my dedication to him. But when we read scripture and we see that baptism now saves you, it's what God's doing for us, and God can use as much or as little water as he wants in baptism. So when you baptize by sprinkling the water, there can be that wonderful testimony in we know who's doing the work here in baptism. So we're looking at uh the fact that a diaphragm or the singular a diaphragm, these are things that are not totally indifferent, but instead we then approach scripture, which will help us better understand what will be the best practice in this moment.

SPEAKER_01 12:27

Yeah. And so I think that example helps as we think through these things, and we wanted to make sure that we didn't just talk about church matters, because we could talk about worship practice, and I I think the matter of worship practice being an Adi Aphra has been beaten to death in our circles, and I think many people understand that um it's not a specific law. I think sometimes there's a caricature uh that it that these things don't matter at all, which obviously they do. It's it's our worship, it's the biggest thing we do as a church. So we can't just say it doesn't matter. Um, but I don't think we really wanted to talk about that today. Um, we didn't really want to talk about church polity, um, the way that we structure our congregations, our constitution. These things are matters of a diaphragm, but we really wanted this to hit home to the Christian, uh, to talk about your life. There are indifferent, not indifferent, middle issues where you're trying to make a decision. What's the best course? God doesn't have a specific you must or must not do this. So we came up with some suggested thoughts about different matters of adiyah from the life of the Christian that maybe we wanted to talk through and then um consider some of the biblical principles, the questions to ask, and the pitfalls to avoid. But maybe before we go through the examples, we should get to the biblical principles, the question, and the questions to ask. So, do you want to provide some of the biblical principles?

SPEAKER_02 14:05

Yeah, so I think if you if you want to look up, uh the apostle Paul talks about meat that's been sacrificed to idols, and that's one of the primary sections we're going to go to in scripture to talk about uh these uh things that are neither commanded nor forbidden in scripture. So kind of painting the picture, there there were these sacrifices that would be made to false gods, and then what they would do with the meat afterwards, it seems, is they would actually take that meat from the sacrifice and sell it in the marketplace. Uh so then uh God-fearing Christians were in a difficult position. Uh, do I buy this meat and eat it that had been sacrificed to an idol, or do I abstain from it? And the the problem came in when people said there's a decision you must make as a Christian. As a Christian, you can't eat this meat that's been sacrificed to an idol. So then Paul, in talking about this, he puts forward some uh some principles to consider in the application, and one of them is uh care for the the weaker brother. So you're in the situation, someone has recently come out of idolatry, and this would really prick their conscience. Well, how could I I eat the meat that's been sacrificed to that false God I used to worship? And they they don't feel firm in that area, and the freedom in the gospel to say, you know, these idols aren't anything. I uh it's okay if I eat the meat. So then he says to care about those individuals, and then that may even dictate how you interact with each other in that area. I think that's probably one of the primary sections in scripture we might go to.

SPEAKER_01 16:01

I this is definitely the go-to, and I think you highlighted a lot of what it says. Um he talks about in verse 4 of 1 Corinthians chapter 8, so then about eating food sacrificed to idols, we know that an idol is nothing at all in the world, and that there is no God but one. For even if continuing on, for even if there are so-called gods, whether in heaven or on earth, as indeed there are many gods and many lords, yet for us there is but one God, the Father, from whom all things came and for whom we live. And there is but one Lord, Jesus Christ, through whom all things came and through whom we live. And so he's basically saying, some people are gonna be comfortable because they know there's just one God. Those idols are fake, anyways. But as you talked about the people who came out of idol worship to them, that's it's very real. Um, and they wouldn't feel comfortable doing this. So then Paul gives that advice. Um, he says, but food does not bring us near to God. We are no worse if we do eat, or no better if we do not. So it's it's an indifferent matter. You can choose one way or another. But then he gives that advice for the one who's dealing with their weaker brother. Therefore, if I if what I eat causes my brother or sister to fall into sin, I will never eat meat again, so that I will not cause them to fall. So the stronger Christian will concern themselves for the sensitive conscience Christian, maybe better than the weak Christian, the Christian with a sensitive conscience. Um they're gonna concern themselves and do the thing that doesn't harm them. And so Christians approach adiaphra with the principle of love. I don't want to scandalize my brother or sister. I want to act in love towards them. Uh, the next chapter, Paul also addresses another matter of adiaphra or a right that you can or cannot exercise about whether he's gonna receive payment or not. So he says he has the right to receive payment for preaching the gospel, but he exercises his right to not be paid. And why does he do this? So that people don't think that he is just doing this to make money. He does does it for the sake of the gospel. So another principle is for the sake of the clarity of the gospel, we're gonna choose the course of action that helps to uphold the gospel for others to hear and believe. So those are two principles that we would consider when addressing a matter of a diaphragm. How does this affect my brother or sister in the faith? Does this scandalize someone with a sensitive conscience? And how does this communicate the gospel? How does this impact my witness of the gospel? Are there any other principles that you might want to address?

SPEAKER_02 18:53

Yeah, I think there are aspects of uh examining yourself too. Uh I think we always look at ourselves and say we're the stronger brother in the situation. Uh but uh that means we need to consider is this something that maybe I've had a past with that would cause me to struggle with it? Could this lead me to sin? Although another Christian could partake in this, does that mean I necessarily should? So I think there's personal uh care and saying to watch out from temptation in that situation and say, is this something that could cause me to stumble? So I'm not gonna say other Christians can't do this, but as for me and myself, I'm not going.

SPEAKER_01 19:40

Yeah. So maybe I won't do this because I see a weakness in myself or I have a history with this. Here's another thought from 1 Corinthians. This is from 1 Corinthians chapter 6. Paul is shooting down um sayings from Christians as to why they might be able to do something sinful specifically. And he says, I have the right to do anything. He's quoting that, and he says, You say, but not everything is beneficial. I have the right to do anything, but I will not be mastered by anything. And so I think that's a good rule to consider. Is this mastering me? Yes, maybe it's not sinful, but is this beneficial? Is it good? Could this master me? And so those are maybe two thoughts that are in that section. Is it beneficial? So is what I'm doing just wasteful? Um, maybe it's not exactly sinful, but it's like, is it actually good? But then also this idea of like, is this mastering me? And I I think that's a good conversation for things where it gets a little muddier. Um something like smoking. Um so it's there's a lot of Christians in the history of our world who've smoked, and um, I don't think we would like or we wouldn't say that that's damning or or even necessarily completely sinful. I don't know, it's hard to say, and then it's judging off of our context and our views, but that might be an example, like, well, if I can't get through the day without using this product, is this mastering me? And you could make that same call case about coffee as well, I suppose. Um, is this mastering me? Um might be a good question to ask as well.

SPEAKER_02 21:34

Yeah, and I think another thing we want to consider in connection to audiofering is that we do not operate as people on ourselves by ourselves who can purely think about our intention. Right. So going back to how we began, this words aren't uh devoid of context. Words have meaning in context, uh not only the context of its use, but the context of its culture that it's used in Um so what we can look at here with uh audiofron is my practices and the decisions that I make are are made in connection to this community of people.

SPEAKER_01 22:13

Maybe using smoking as an example of that, where once upon a time, if a pastor was smoking a cigarette, people wouldn't even really have batted an eye at that nowadays. That might be a little shocking, it might be a little jarring for them to see their pastor smoking. And and so there is the causing offense scandalizing someone, that would be a consideration, even if we're saying like it's not like even if your argument is that it's not as stewardships and that's harming your body. Um, and and so that that's one thing that we could use as an example.

SPEAKER_02 22:53

And that's why I think it'd always be good to say in these considerations uh to apply it, uh, or or rather to seek the uh advice and consideration of other spiritually mature Christians, either by looking to the history of the church to see what they've considered, or by talking to other people, uh, so that we're not just always making these decisions and saying, well, I'm free to make this decision. But how does this uh impact other people? Are there other things I'm not considering? Yeah, and this isn't just for the church case, but this is uh even in the Christian life.

SPEAKER_01 23:32

This is one of the things that came up in my church yesterday or on Sunday. We were talking about clothing and modesty, and these things are culturally determined. The garb of people changes over time. So you and I have talked about this. Um, we're we're about the only people at our churches that wear a suit and tie. Um, once upon a time, all the men wore a suit and tie. Once upon a time, most of the pastors wore a clerical collar. Um, and context changes, then it became less common. You see a little bit of that making a re-emergence even in our synod of some guys wearing clerical collars. So these things change over time. Um, even like head coverings and worship. We were talking with some of the older women of the congregation, uh, or I've talked to some of the older women in their 90s who remember when there was a time that women, even in our synod, wore head coverings to worship when they were really little. Uh, that has changed. These things are contextual. Um, the standards of dress here in America is different than Africa. And so just because we used to wear a shirt and tie to church doesn't mean you have to wear that today. But one of the things we were asking is at what point is it just that we're being we're the the we're the frog in the kettle that doesn't realize it's being boiled to death?

SPEAKER_02 25:10

Yeah, I think that's really important. We live in a society that tells us that other people shouldn't get an input on what we wear, and we have this liberation. Uh, but then a lot of times people are actually just lying to themselves, they're following the trends, they're and they're doing the things that would catch someone else's eye. Uh, but uh this idea that the opinions of other people in regard to what I wear matters is is difficult in our society, but it's true. Yeah. Uh so uh I'll first apply it as a pastor, and then I'll apply it as um uh as a general Christian. So as a pastor, I generally speaking wear a uh suit and tie on Sundays, and then I vest during the worship service. And then I could ask the question, is this my personal preference? Oh well, when it comes to the tie, no. I think ties are a little uncomfortable, but I do have care for my members that uh what I don't want to do is communicate uh just this idea of things constantly changing. Uh I want to present to them the stability in the pastoral office. So the things that they were used to seeing their pastor do. So I I there's importance behind these things. Uh I don't want to create scandal or questions that are needless just because I think it's more comfortable to wear a hoodie. Yeah. But I I also at the same time don't want to communicate that my clothes is what's the most important thing that they should be considering, but instead the word of the Lord that comes from my mouth. Now, bringing this into the average Christian's life, the truth is that the clothes that we wear is not what defines us, that's not what makes us worthy to come into God's presence. Uh, and but we do want to consider what what is the general perspective of other people? Uh, there's nothing in the Bible that says elastic is a sinful material to wear. But uh, am I doing something that could uh cause my brother or sister to sin? Am I doing something that could cause someone to be scandalized by how I'm dressed? These things actually do matter.

SPEAKER_01 27:38

And so I I couldn't find the specific reference, but there's the um do not even give a hint of sexual immorality command in scripture. And and so it's even if something you're doing isn't specifically sinful, if you're giving the impression of sin, then it becomes wrong. And so applying this to these matters of Adiafra, um, could this give the impression of sin? What does this communicate to others? Because we are not just individuals, we're part of a group, we're part of a body, and so we do want to consider these things. And and obviously we don't want to be legalistic and say it must be this way, and we we do need to be careful about someone who's gonna make a law where there's not to be a law, and so that gets back to that in the case of scandal or confession, and and so if uh there it is being careful, like, okay, are people at your church demanding that you do something specific? Well, that's that's where we get a little uncomfortable and and don't want to give the impression that that they can add to scripture, but we must consider our fellow believers and how they're gonna receive our actions. It would be selfish not to.

SPEAKER_02 28:54

So, uh, what we're gonna recognize is that as an individual, uh there's really nothing in the Bible that would say I can't go to the store and sweatpants. There's nothing that says, this is how far my sleeves need to go, this is how far my my pants need to go. Although there is a general discretion of just saying, why am I wearing these things? What attention am I trying to bring to uh to myself? Uh so we we recognize these things are not going to be commanded nor forbidden in scripture. So we are gonna have to make some hard dis decisions, and that's where I think it is going to be really important to to depend on the wisdom of other Christians. Yes. Uh to talk to someone who um doesn't take the perspective of you do you do you, you do what you want, empower yourself, but someone who uh says, I I want to honor the Lord too, and then ask them that question what do you think about this shirt? What do you think about how I'm presenting myself when I go out into public? Yeah, and then they can give you some godly counsel on these things.

SPEAKER_01 30:09

And I I think this is obviously a lot more complicated for young women, and so encouraging Christian mothers to talk with their daughters about this, and and Christian fathers to to also um lead their families in this regard, because um this is where specifically was addressed in my congregation is where when are we the frog and the is it frog? Yeah, the frog being boiled and not noticing it. Because um just because our culture has really moved far from modesty doesn't mean that we are free to do that, and so that might be one of the difficulties too about the considerations of others that we've talked about. Um sometimes a culture is just guilty of sin. Yeah, and and but then there's other context considerations, and and we are kind of hinting at that. There's a difference between going to the store and going to church, there's a difference between going to the beach and going to the mall. And so there are cultural context considerations when it comes to to dress and approach. And and so the one of the things that like when we're talking specifically about like clothes and how you dress the church, because this is like the question people like to ask um, would Jesus wear jeans to church? I there's a Mayfair Mall had a sign like that from one of the non-denominational churches, if you remember that. And uh the I think their implication was like Jesus wouldn't care, I think is what they meant. Um but here's the way that I kind of explain it to people at my church. There's still a sense of elevated dress for weddings, the way that you dress for a wedding. Even if some country weddings, you're gonna wear your blue jeans and a bottom up. But there's still like a sense that you don't wear your sweatpants and Jaws t-shirt to a wedding. And if we're going to church, where it is the foretaste of the heavenly banquet, uh the foretaste of the marriage supper of the Lamb and his church, and Jesus is truly present here. Well, shouldn't we give this as much respect as we would a wedding here on earth? And so um not saying that you need to wear uh a tuxedo or something like that, but I think there's still levels of propriety in our society. Um so if you're gonna name it well, men um maybe it's khakis and a polo or a button up or a tie if you want. Maybe in Southern California when it gets 100 degrees, it's like, well, you wear you do wear shorts because people wear shorts everywhere, but you're still wearing a um a polo shirt. I mean, I I there's there's still respect communicated through your dress in our culture. That is not something that's gone. So it's worth considering.

SPEAKER_02 33:04

Yeah. So rec recognizing that there's levels of subjectivity to this, right? Uh the the clothes that an impoverished person wears to uh church in a third world country is going to be different than a wealthy person in uh a wealthy suburb of California.

SPEAKER_01 33:24

And that's something biblically speaking, there's very clear guidance as well. Don't flaunt your wealth through what you wear at church. And um, like Paul gives that guidance about like not wearing all these fancy jewelry to draw attention to yourself. So that that would be on the other end of things, like um, if you're wearing, I don't, I don't know, fashion, I don't know, whatever the expensive pose is, um, because you know that it draws attention, that that can be problematic as well. So clothing is certainly one area but so I I guess before before we get to the personal level, I think we're still we still wanted to hit we we're hitting home biblical principles and using that as an illustration. So then I wanted to talk a little bit about um, I think we've got biblical principles down, but maybe some questions to ask ourselves before addressing uh more specific examples, because I think that might help us to talk about the specific examples. So, do you have any guidance of um questions you could ask about?

SPEAKER_02 34:24

Yeah, I think uh one of the important questions is whose will am I looking to follow? Is this my will or God's will? Right? So even in situations where there isn't a thus saith the Lord, there is still an avenue that you're going to say, who am I trying to glorify? Whose desires am I trying to fulfill? And if it is just your own, then you might need to take a step back and say, uh, could my self-desire cloud my decision making here?

SPEAKER_01 34:59

Yeah, so who am I trying to serve? Uh, one of the questions, maybe even before that, is just checking yourself and saying, is this actually Adi Aphora? Um, I think sometimes we like to oversimplify things and people will say, Well, there's no specific Bible passage that addresses this. Well, there's no specific Bible passage that addresses a lot of things. We're making application based off of biblical principles. And just because the exact wording is not addressed, that's when when people start to say, like, well, the Bible doesn't actually say anything specifically about abortion. Well, that's a lazy argument.

SPEAKER_03 35:36

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 35:37

So questioning yourself, is this actually an Adiafra, or are there biblical principles that do address this matter?

SPEAKER_02 35:43

We need to recognize that there are explicit and synthetic doctrines within scripture. So ones that you can have that Bible passage that just says that you shall not murder, explicitly stated. But then there are other ones that it's pieced together throughout scripture that you see um pornography use is wrong. Okay, pornography did not exist at that same level at at that time. But there are Bible passages that say, flee from temptation, the marriage that is to be kept pure by all, and then you synthetically bring this together and say that is sinful or wrong.

SPEAKER_01 36:23

Yeah, so um that's another good guiding question. Is it actually Adi Aphra? Um, what is my context? We've talked about that quite a bit already, but I I think one of the things that we can get lazy with context is saying that my context is just whatever I want it to be. And so you get, well, I don't know how much I'm gonna get two churches in the same community that say that they're making decisions based off of their context that are drastically different. And it's like, well, your context is is the same as each other. Um which again, then let's just talk about well, what where's the disagreement coming from? Um and is there a disagreement? What's the why is the approach so different? Um, but sometimes we just like to say, well, my context is what I what's expedient for the decision I want to make. And and so the context is um your community, your age, the world we live in. There are multiple levels, um, our Lutheran tradition, um, the tradition of Christianity um throughout history. And so there's multiple levels of context. So not just like what's historical, but what's been passed down to us. And so really considering all of these different facets of our context that help to inform our decision.

SPEAKER_02 37:46

Yeah, I think that's really important that we can't just say, well, my context dictates this and allows it. Okay, what about your context makes you say this is the the better decision to be made?

SPEAKER_01 37:59

And another one, which is kind of maybe hard to define, but like what's wise. People will disagree about what's wise, but I I use this example at at church. Um, maybe we could use the prof the sainted Professor Tiefel's example, but the one that I use at church is uh when it comes to Christian worship, we are free to use different styles of instrumentation, but there is a question of what's wise or not. So should I play the accordion for the entirety of the service? Or should I replace all of the organ and piano pieces with myself playing the recorder? And then people obviously know. Well, why? Well, first of all, I don't know how to play the accordion or the recorder, but even if I did, like um the recorder, I don't know if it's a a strong enough instrument to actually carry congregational singing. Some people, I'm sure, can play it pretty well, but a lot of people, when they hear the recorder, just think of the second grader bringing it home and kind of annoyingly blowing on it. Or when you think when you hear an accordion, you kind of think of like polka, and and I think of like people drinking beer at a in a beer hall or something like that. So um there is a question of what's wise. Uh what and and we can apply that to our questions about the opera as well.

SPEAKER_02 39:23

Yeah, and sometimes and as you approach that of what's wise, to make sure that the history that you're parroting is true. Uh sometimes people can say, well, you know, Martin Luther just took uh uh he took bar songs and put Christian meaning to that. That's a pretty sh large caricature of what Martin Luther actually did. Martin Luther was in a society that was uh much more communally uh uh singing than ours, and he took well-known tunes. So to boil that down and say that Martin Luther took bar songs and uh just uh put Christian words to it wouldn't be a fair representation. Yeah. Uh it's not like he he took the local country radio station song and just changed the words and said, let's sing that at church on Sunday morning. So make sure that when we're making those decisions based off of wisdom and standing on the shoulders of giants who went before us, we are accurately representing what they actually went through.

SPEAKER_01 40:30

Yeah. So maybe now we can get into some of these examples of our own Christian life and and talk through some of the considerations uh what a Christian might do in this situation. Uh, is there one of them that you'd like to talk about?

SPEAKER_02 40:44

Yeah, I I think uh for for me, uh maybe we could jump onto the festivals one just because there's a Bible passage that comes to mind where uh we're regarding new moons and Sabbaths, don't let people judge you by these things. Uh so then uh there's different festivals where we would say these are neither commanded nor forbidden in scripture, but it would be proper for us as Christians to not participate in them or to indeed participate in them. So Christmas would be a big one. There's nothing in the Bible that says that a Christian needs to celebrate Christmas on December 25th. However, when we put ourselves into our culture and our context, we would say it would seem to be a fairly unwise thing for a church to say, well, we're not gonna do that.

SPEAKER_01 41:38

We're gonna do Luke 2 on October 15th.

SPEAKER_02 41:42

Like we're going to go, we're gonna push back against that. That would seem to be an unwise thing. That's probably not the controversial one. The the bigger one's probably Halloween for people. And they'll say, uh, because of pagan roots and origins, Christians shouldn't celebrate Halloween. And I think that's a good opportunity to have a conversation and say, even there may be Christians who end up on different sides of this. Yeah. You must be careful not to say you are you are sinful and wrong because you allow your kids to go trick or treating.

SPEAKER_01 42:21

So there's two different perspectives. I think this works really well with the meat sacrifice um to idols, and I use this as an example for Bible study at church. So you have one person who maybe they legitimately did flirt with the occult, and they were uh a Ouija board user and tarot cards, and they were very spiritual but not religious, maybe even practiced um like Wicca. And then they come out of that and they become a Christian, and they're like, I can't celebrate Halloween. Like that, that's that was our big sacred holy day that that that I'm not comfortable with. They would be that one with the sensitive conscience, and so they are free to not celebrate Halloween. Whereas someone like me, I grew up celebrating Halloween to an extent. We went trick-or-treating and um dressed up and ate candy. And to me, it's like, well, this is the one day a year that neighbors talk to each other and they give each other free stuff. Like, that's pretty cool, actually. Uh, we get together with our neighbors, we have a fire in the driveway after our kids are done trick-or-treating and and we spend time with each other. That's great. And so to me, it's like, well, what's the problem with this? And so it's two different um experiences and approaches, and so um, this does influence my actions. So I can celebrate Halloween, but maybe I'll be sensitive about it, or I will be sensitive about it. And so a lot of churches have more or less Halloween parties, but they don't call it that. Maybe that's a wise thing to not call your fall festival uh Halloween Palooza or something like that, because uh there are people who are sensitive to Halloween. Now, there is a certain point where some Christians become demanding of it and say you can't, and that's where it becomes a little more complicated. But I think Halloween's a good example of that meat sacrifice idol, because someone like me is well, that's not what it is to me. And and um, yes, demon activity is real, but um God's in control, God's the only God.

SPEAKER_02 44:31

Yeah, so then uh even as you approach it though, and you would say, I I feel comfortable participating in Halloween activities, uh, there would still be certain guardrails you would want to put up.

SPEAKER_01 44:44

Here's a question similar. Um sorry. Yeah, no Ramadan. Uh because I saw a church, well, you shared a church that said something about Ramadan and like a Christian church, and it connected with a similar thought of um people, Christians I've seen like wishing other uh wishing people from other religions like happy Diwali, I think was one of the examples. Or um even someone asked during Bible study, what about saying happy holidays instead of Merry Christmas? So are you wishing them like a happy Kwanzaa or a happy Hanukkah by saying happy holidays? That actually gets to the original point about um language. That's how we got into that conversation. Because I said, well, an inappropriate response would say, Well, when I say happy holidays, I'm referring to the 12 days of Christmas, because language has um meaning outside of what I am saying it means. Like this has meaning in context. People know that when you say happy holidays, they mean Christmas, Kwanzaa, Hanukkah, and New Year's. Um so that's actually the context now that I remember it. But what would you say about that? So you're not celebrating Diwali, Ramadan, or um Kwanzaa or Hanukkah, but this idea of acknowledging it for others.

SPEAKER_02 46:06

Yeah, that's a that's a tough one to consider. I think it's something that uh we we always want to be uh careful that we are not just kind of bending the knee to a current current cultural uh fads. Um I I don't think we as Christians should get super upset when a secular society doesn't wish us Merry Christmas. But I uh I think we can have the opportunity to to profess the the truth, right? So uh connected to that, I saw a football team uh uh wished a happy Ramadan. And and then uh there were Christians who were commenting and saying, Oh, well, are you going to wish us a Merry Christmas? Uh because you said happy holidays last year. Yeah and I would say let's be careful that we don't just get overly upset and offended about about things. Um as to what you say, know that your words are important, uh measure them and make proper decisions.

SPEAKER_01 47:13

So, I mean, if you're giving advice, I I would say I I just I don't think I could in good conscience wish someone a happy Ramadan. Well, yeah. I mean, like because I was speaking towards happy holidays. Yeah, okay. But and then yeah, the happy holidays one specifically. Um I I said if if someone's gonna make that decision, like their work says you have to say happy holidays, do they have to demand Merry Christmas? I don't, I'm not sure. But what I did say was like I would discourage from the redefining of terms and say, well, I mean the 12 days of Christmas, because well, that's not what that means in our cult in our culture and context. Um, but I do think it it is a wonderful opportunity to profess Christ and say Merry Christmas. And I I actually don't know if that's really a thing. I don't know, maybe it is, but I feel like workers say Merry Christmas all the time. So um maybe you can just say Merry Christmas. And and so I I think with you're not gonna celebrate the other holidays, but I do think it's a good thing to consider about Adi Aphra. It is an Adi Aphra, whether you're wishing someone a uh a happy celebration of their religious festival. I I just don't know if you can if you can do that uh because it's it's worship of a of a false god.

SPEAKER_02 48:33

Yeah, yeah, that's I think that's something that's important for us to consider uh and to say each decision that we make uh uh it it does mean something. The words that we use and they mean something. Uh so then uh what as we go forward and and talk about these things to uh to um evaluate our words, uh I I wouldn't say that it's a sinful to say happy holidays, uh, but what I would say is just as you speak, consider what that does communicate to other people.

SPEAKER_01 49:11

Um as we think about some of the other Christian life ones, maybe some Christian discipline discipline practices. Uh we're in the season of Lent, it's Ash Wednesday today, so some Christians are gonna um receive the imposition of ashes. We do that at my church. Uh, we some Christians are gonna give things up for Lent. I'm giving something up for Lent. Um, some Christians are even gonna fast. Um, I've um I the Bible says you're not supposed to talk about it, but I I have fasted before for religious purposes, not just as an intermittent fasting diet or something like that. And so uh what's some Christian guidance when it comes to a diaphragm, um, the adiafra of Christian discipline practices?

SPEAKER_02 49:55

Yeah, I I think what we would want to be to be careful about is that we are not just totally just ragging on other people because they do something or because they don't. That seems to be what I notice more often is if someone if someone gives something up for Lent or they fast, we kind of make fun of that. Yeah, and it's like, well, we're Lutherans, we don't do those Catholic things. Um but then then on the other side, people can get so pious about their um their Christian discipline practices that they're talking about it all the time and they're looking down on other people who haven't chosen to fast during that time or to give something up for Lent. Uh but uh to use these in the proper perspective that scripture advises, and these are opportunities to to reflect on God's word and to pray. Uh and uh if you're if you're covered in uh in ashes and fasting to to actually wash your face off and move forward and continue. We don't do these things to bring attention to ourselves. Uh so I would say it's a good opportunity to think about these practices and then make a decision that is as proper and fitting, uh, but not to look down on another person who's not fasting or to look down at another person because they are.

SPEAKER_01 51:33

Yeah. So what's your intention? Are you doing this to draw attention to yourself? Jesus is very clear, don't do that. Um, that's even one of the gospels for Ash Wednesday in our series of readings, um, that you're not supposed to be drawing attention to yourself with your with with your religious um acts. So don't do that. So, like we talked about this last time, maybe you don't um get the ashes imposed at seven in the morning and walk around uh all day just so people can see it, and you take a picture and post it on social media. At the same time, um also remember that this is not a meritorious act towards salvation, it does not make me uh more righteous in God's sight through my Christian discipline practices, but to understand that there could be benefit, and that's why when people will automatically dismiss something like that, that it's like, well, be careful. There is actually biblical precedent for ashes and for fasting. Jesus even says, when you fast, don't do it in this certain way. So he kind of presupposes that there is going to be fasting done. And so, what am I doing this for is a major question. And and then also, what is this communicating to others, like we've talked about? And so um if I am choosing to fast and I tell someone, um, maybe it's just as a pastor who's indicating like that, hey, this is a possibility, or giving something up for Lent, not to brag about it, but just to communicate this is a possibility, and there can be a positive witness towards others. Um, but I I think it's too quickly we can fall into like Gnosticism, and then I think that's what really a lot of this connects with that we've talked about with Adi Aphra, that the um physical doesn't matter, but it does. And there are beneficial physical practices for the faith. And so um, if you're doing it for pro positive reasons, um go ahead and do it. If if um you don't feel like you need to fast or give something up for Lent because you're always reading the Bible and and like you're already on top of these things really well, okay. Well, that's wonderful as well.

SPEAKER_02 53:58

Yeah, maybe connect to the another one. Uh I was thinking uh just in regard to things that we consume, food and and even alcohol. Uh I think those are big ones to consider for Adi Afrin. Um and maybe going specifically to alcohol first, that we live in a culture in which there are Christians out there who say you can't drink alcohol. Um and maybe I've even heard from some Baptists that's a little bit of a caricature of what they actually teach. Uh but they then you hear you hear it said pretty loudly. So uh there seems to be Christians who say you can't drink any alcohol, that drinking alcohol is.

SPEAKER_01 54:47

Yeah, no, I know I know for a fact that that is a position. And the argument that you'll see online is that they'll say biblical wine was so much less potent than what we have today that it doesn't compare to what people are drinking, and they diluted it, so they're like, it was basically like drinking cleaned up water.

SPEAKER_02 55:09

So then what we want to recognize is that scripture talks about alcohol in a variety of ways, uh, and sometimes saying like spare the spare the alcohol for those who are suffering in the in the Proverbs, but then Paul gives the encouragement for this sake of personal health to to drink some alcohol. Jesus blesses a wedding by giving them alcohol, and he he uses it as a vessel for bringing his blood to people.

SPEAKER_01 55:42

Picture of heaven in the Old Testament is um a place flowing with wine, or even just the picture of blessing, like my cup overflows. I'm pretty sure the idea of wine, I mean that's often the picture is like the the grapes uh are gonna be a great harvest, and and your cups are gonna overflow. And so God uses wine as a picture of abundance, as a and that abundance is a picture of of heaven, and so I he wouldn't pick something sinful to be a picture of heaven.

SPEAKER_02 56:12

So then a Christian could approach alcohol and say, I can use this in a godly way. Uh, but they're gonna have to understand that because there is a lot of potential harm that can come from the overuse of alcohol, and you always want to know where's where's my limit? And that might even be the wrong question to ask. Yeah, it is. Uh rather than saying where's my limit, just say how far away from the limit can I stay. That doesn't mean to total abstinence from drinking alcohol, but saying I want to always use this in a way that I'm not losing my control of myself and I'm not being mastered by it.

SPEAKER_01 56:56

Yeah. So I I think that's good guidance for alcohol. Um, am I being mastered? Am I going too far and sinning? How can I serve God with my drinking of alcohol? There can be a serving God with your drinking of alcohol. If I'm getting a beer with a friend and uh we're we're enjoying a good, godly friendship, and I'm building up his spirit in the small s, like not even religious sense, but more of just like his his spirit helping to make him happy and enjoy his life by us spending time together. That's good. God has given us relationships and friendships. And so you're drinking a beer to the glory of God. Um, so am I doing this to God's glory or not? I think it's a good question to ask with alcohol and with really any of these. Um, one of the things that we didn't note that I think would be interested to briefly talk about is um birth control. Uh do you have any thoughts that we could maybe talk about like the adiafra of birth control? Um, this is something I actually started, I put as a question in my Bible information classes because I think it's worth talking to people about.

SPEAKER_02 58:04

Yeah, I think it's something that requires uh a lot of study and learning, and it shouldn't be something we totally remain quiet on. Uh so it's become a taboo topic to talk about because of the amount of people that struggle with infertility. So uh rather than potentially uh offending or hurting someone's feelings because God just didn't bless them with children, we avoid conversations with young couples about why are you not having children. Um but it with birth control, uh, I I don't want to create like too far, and I don't want to get into it and say some things that are incorrect about uh whether or not that's that is a secondary level abortifacient, even though that's not the primary purpose of it, right?

SPEAKER_01 58:55

I I would have to do a little bit more study and it's hard with that too, is that the definitions are changing and and so pregnancy gets changed from um fertilization to implantation, and then so something is an abortifacient because it uh prohibits implantation, but then the companies who label such things don't call that an abortifacient because they don't think that that's pregnancy yet, and so that's where it gets a little muddy as the water.

SPEAKER_02 59:23

Yeah, so I would encourage a Christian uh to say uh we recognize that children are a blessing from the Lord, and we want to, in marriage, what readily receive these. There are obviously other uh biblical principles at play. Um uh, but sometimes when the thought is, well, this is a stewardship of money question, I can't afford to have children, then the answer might be uh perhaps you can't afford to live the way you do with children. And and there's actually a different approach that needs to be considered.

SPEAKER_01 1:00:00

This is an interesting point I'd brought up that we had brought up in Bible study. So children are called a blessing, children are always a blessing from the Lord, they are a heritage of the Lord, like arrows and uh and the quiver are many children in a man's youth. The Bible speaks so well of having children, but then money is spoken as a root of all kinds of evil. And yet, how often don't Christians choose the money over children? Something that's root of all kinds of evil over children. Like that just shows that our mentality towards this is backwards. And so um encourage a Christian to do their research. If it is an abortifacient, we can't be comfortable with that. Even if there's a chance of that it's an abortifacient and it might not be its primary purpose, I would still advise a Christian to consider other means because there are things that you can do that are not abortients, that don't even have that risk. But then it's just completely changing your mindset on this and saying children are a blessing from the Lord. And so that goes back to that question about like, is this really an Adi Aphra? To some extent, it ceases to be when the question comes from how can I prevent this blessing from God come to me so that I can empower my sinful nature and my greed? Like, that's really a problem. And so there might be like there are legitimate reasons that someone might space out having children uh or wait for a period of time, a season in their life. Um, but I think it is really important to question like, is this actually indifferent, or am I intentionally um ignoring God's guidance on this?

SPEAKER_02 1:01:52

Yeah, so we'd encourage Christian, do your research in these things, uh, learn about the birth control methods that you want to use. Uh, seriously consider is this something that I as a Christian should feel comfortable with doing? And if one of the functions is uh that it's going to stop a fertilized egg from implanting, then you're gonna th that should be some red flags rising up as a Christian. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 1:02:25

So then if this if this results in a fertilized egg not implanting, I think is a good thing for people to think about.

SPEAKER_02 1:02:34

Yeah, so think about that when you choose the form of birth control. But then uh we also want to think about the heart behind all of these things. Uh so is my heart behind not having children uh improper and impure in these things because of selfishness, because of greed. Um I I I've said this in in Bible study format before. Uh there could be a person who doesn't use uh birth control and they're sinning against the Lord. There could be a person who does use certain forms of birth control and they're honoring God. So just uh really you you you you need to think about these things. Like if you're in a situation where uh you've been you've been told it it's it would be very unwise uh for the sake of your health to have any more children, uh then it would seem that would be a godly decision to say we're going to use birth control here.

SPEAKER_01 1:03:38

Yeah, because is this gonna take the mother away from like by trying to have more children? Would this take the mother away from the children who are here? Okay, well that like that's a little different. But one thing that we do often as Christians today is we always go to the exceptions instead of the norm. And the exceptions distract us, but we should talk about the norm first and and establish that truth. We maybe have one time to talk about one more. I wanted to talk a little bit about education. So the Christian has kind of three different, four different choices, I guess. Um public school, their Lutheran school if they have one, other Christian school or homeschool. Uh how does a Christian go forward with this where there really isn't a specific thus saith the Lord? How do they go forward making the best decision in this regard?

SPEAKER_02 1:04:34

Yeah, so we we recognize that the Lord has called them to uh proclaim the truth to their children. And uh whatever decision they they make, they should do this with an understanding that the the Lord has first and foremost entrusted the spiritual well-being of these children to me, and I need to take an active role. So uh a Christian could make an improper decision by sending their kids to public school and then having them never hear about God's word, or sending them to a Christian school and saying, well, that's the teacher's response. And they never teach their kids about that.

SPEAKER_01 1:05:12

And they don't go to church on Sunday.

SPEAKER_02 1:05:13

So to recognize that there are uh ditches on the decisions that we we make, but to take into consideration how can I best accomplish the goal that the Lord has put forward before me, and that's to train these children up in the way they should go.

SPEAKER_01 1:05:34

The indifferent matter is not whether the children will be taught the faith. That is a command from God. So, how does this get accomplished? There's different ways. And and I think as you look through the different routes, um, it is worth considering the dangers um or the pitfalls or the problems from each route. So um it's interesting. I was reading an essay from John Schahler from 1910. Um And uh Schaller kind of makes the case that the fight for the Christian school is the fight for the Christian worldview. And in nineteen ten, he was like, it is unthinkable to send your kids to to a public school because they're gonna be taught from a a non-Christian worldview that's all about the law and that denies God as creator. Or no, it was his the one about God denying God as creator. That might have been a sacred becker one. Doesn't matter. Um, but this idea that like it's a fight for the Christian worldview, and you you want to um like then he's saying how like how could they think that they can keep their kid in the faith with um having them handing them over to the world the majority of the week and then just bringing them to church once a week. And so uh he was very strong in his wording about like you should send your kids to one of our Lutheran schools in 1927. Our synod resolved, and can or there's a recommendation for a resolution and convention about all of our Lutheran school or all of our Lutheran churches having a Lutheran school, and that was a Lutheran day school. It wasn't Sunday school, it was Lutheran day school. And so I think we could look back at our forefathers and say maybe they're a little harsh about this. Um it it's probably a little more nuanced than it was being presented. That was the spirit of the age, though. Um, the pastor just got kind of got to tell people what to do, it doesn't really work that way anymore. Um, and and so maybe they were being a little too um stern about that, but I think it is a good question to ask like, who is forming our children and and in what perspective are they being formed in? Um because the public schools haven't gotten better since 1910. Um, like there's a lot of anti-Christian worldviews that are being being being presented to them in that situation. So like it's worth considering these things. Um, but you talked about the the possible pitfall of the Lutheran school. Like, am I just going to hand my children over and I don't play an active role because it kind of I'm like, well, they're getting it getting it there, and it empowers my my laziness. Um the other Christian school, like non-Lutheran, that to me, that's like my least favorite of the options, which might sound backwards to some people, but um I just I I think it would get so confusing for the kids if they're at a um non-Lutheran school and they're being taught things about the Bible that are not from our perspective, not our perspective, but are not biblical, and I think that would be really net tough to to navigate. Um but as we see in our world today, homeschooling is taking a rise, and and I think that's something like when we were kids, we made fun of the idea. But I I actually like am starting to say, think like, you know, there's a lot of blessings that could come from that. So um I I think no matter what, a Christian can do it in the right way. But um, if you're going to send your kids to public school, you need to think, well, how am I going to combat this anti-Christian worldview that's being presented to them? Um if you send your kids to the Lutheran school, how am I going to combat my my sinful, lazy, sinful nature that doesn't want to take an active role in the training of my children? Uh if you're going to send your kids to the other Christian school, like how am I going to combat the false doctrine that's being taught them and how am I going to navigate those conversations with children? Or if I'm going to homeschool my kids, like there's difficulties about like just cultural reasons of uh how am I going to uh socialize them and prepare them for um citizenship, uh and and there's gonna be some like needed intentional steps towards that. So I think there's just you're gonna have to strongly consider these things which way, depending on which way you go.

SPEAKER_02 1:10:01

Yeah, there's a lot of different things that can be taken into consideration. So if you uh if you uh live in a state that does not have a voucher program uh to pay for a Christian education, we can advocate for making sacrifices and potential financial aid that can be available. But some people will will look and they'll just say, you know, we can't afford it. Yeah. And then they need then they make that decision to say we're we we can't afford to send our kids to the Christian school.

SPEAKER_01 1:10:33

They make the decision because they want the mom to be able to stay home and therefore they can't afford the Christian school. Are we gonna say that's wrong?

SPEAKER_02 1:10:39

Yeah. So they might make the decision financially, just as uh the cost of private education is is uh is increasing significantly. Um they might make the decision for social reasons on a few different realms. Um so what happens when uh the sinful kids at a Christian school do what sinful kids do, and they they they bully a kid, and then all of a sudden now you have a kid who's associating uh constant bullying with church. That can be a problem. So a Christian family could make the decision to remove their child from that, and we wouldn't say that they're doing something wrong. They're making a decision to say we want, we think this is gonna be the better uh road for our child long term for their connection to God and his word. Um or socialization, uh, as you pointed out with with homeschooling, small Christian schools, maybe they they just see there would be a benefit to having further connections. I think it's worth considering the evangelistic effort, but remembering that our children are first disciples before they are evangelists. So if we're gonna think about, I'm gonna send them out, but what before I send them out, are they ready to be sent out? Uh I think there's something to be considered. Uh are there schools, Christian schools in my community? Uh, is it can my family handle that long of a drive? Uh would it would it be better for us to just be in the community we live in instead of having to leave constantly for school? So there's all sorts of decisions. Uh so what we can't say, I I don't think, I don't think we can say it's sinful and wrong, Christian, to send your kids to public school. We can firmly say that's not true. Um, we cannot say you, Christian, have to send your child to the Lutheran school or you have to pull your kids out of other schools and uh and homeschool them. What we would say is uh make a decision that's informed off of scripture with a recognition that God has given you an important task, and that's to train up your child in the way that he should go.

SPEAKER_01 1:12:59

And so maybe to wrap this up, the biggest pitfall to avoid, I think, when it comes to Adi Aphra is thinking that there's some slam dunk, easy answer all the time, and that we don't have to do our own homework and our own thinking guided by scripture, but we do. That's just the answer. Sometimes it's easier to have a black and white answer, but it doesn't work that way all the time. Um, there are many things to consider, and this is your encouragement is to be guided by God's word, be saturated in God's word, so that as you are constantly in God's word, hearing God's word, reading God's word, it's going to shape the way that you make decisions as you approach these different matters of a diaphra.

SPEAKER_02 1:13:37

So to wrap up our conversation on a diaphragm, maybe perhaps consider this. Uh, those are words we said a lot, yeah, but we recognize that we have uh decisions to be made in a sinful world and decisions that we want to make to glorify God, to give thanks to Jesus Christ who gave uh gave us eternal life in all of these things.

SPEAKER_01 1:14:03

God bless.