Giving to the Needy (Ep. 19)

In this episode, Pastors Chris and Tony sit down for a candid and thoughtful conversation about what it really means to give to the needy. Drawing from Scripture, pastoral experience, and everyday encounters, they wrestle with questions many Christians quietly carry: How do we give without enabling harm? What about when generosity is taken advantage of? Should giving be spontaneous or structured? And how do we guard against pride—or guilt—when we give?

With a mix of theological depth and brotherly banter, they explore the tension between wisdom and compassion, law and gospel, and the calling to love their neighbor in real, tangible ways. Whether you’ve hesitated at a street corner, questioned where your offerings go, or simply want to grow in faithful generosity, this episode invites you into an honest, Christ-centered discussion on caring for those in need.

Transcript

SPEAKER_01 0:00

Imagine you're driving down the road and you see at an intersection there's an individual with a cardboard sign that says, Any help will do. Do you roll down your window and give that some person some money? Or do you try to not make eye contact with that person until the light turns green and then quickly go on your way? This is something that Christians really struggle with. On one hand, uh we know that there's many facets of what's called panhandling that are not allowed in certain areas. There are municipalities and counties that make panhandling asking for money at the corner of the street illegal. And then there's also the question about if they're claiming uh these uh funds that they make in their taxes, and then people wonder if there's truly legality to it. And then there's other reasons to wonder if you should really give money to the people who are asking for it, such as, well, maybe there's other organizations they should go to instead of just asking for money. Some will actually just rather callously look at them and say, Well, that person looks like he can work a job, so he should probably apply at the McDonald's down the road. Other Christians, however, will give them the money. How do you approach these things? Uh today we're going to address this question and all things on giving to the poor and needy, almost giving, here in our podcast, Double Portion, where twin Lutheran pastors discuss the intersection of studying the scriptures and living on our faith. My name is Chris Flugeft and the pastor of Grace Lutheran Church in Yorbalinda, California, joined by my brother Tony Flugeft, pastor at Christ Divine Lutheran Church in Temecula. Tony, do you want to kind of get into our topic a little bit, talking about almsgiving? How how'd you think about talking about this today?

SPEAKER_00 2:19

Yeah, I think it's a legitimate struggle for the Christian because we see calls throughout scripture, especially we see in the minor prophets, these calls to care for the poor and the needy. And then we have these people in front of us who are in need. And the Christian wonders, well, what am I supposed to do? This is something that uh I've done a Bible study on in my church before. We did a um, we were going through Christian living, different topics on Christian living, and specifically I used uh a little tract from Martin Chemnitz on almsgiving to kind of guide the conversation. Uh, I think he gives some practical, really common sense, Christian advice about giving. Um, because you're really trying to find that narrow middle road. Um, because there are bad actors who are taking advantage of others as they ask for money. Uh at the same time, um, Jesus freely gives to us, even though we are sinners and and we are called to give and support others, and and so trying to find this this in-between. Uh, this in-between, between on the one hand hand, like the pull yourself up by your bootstraps idea, and on the other hand, just give to anyone no matter what, because they asked. Like you said, there's very real difficulties about this. I remember in Milwaukee, there was signs that literally said don't give money to panhandlers, and the um the government's saying we've got different programs, support different programs. Here's a list of charities you can support. Uh, these people have uh programs they can sign up through the government to receive support. They don't need your money. If they're getting it this way, I think the suggestion is essentially um they are going to use it for probably bad purposes. I remember when I first moved to Temacula, I had met with a number of different city council members and the mayor, and I don't remember s who specifically I was talking with, but this uh I I would ask them all, well, what's the biggest need in our community that a church could help with? And one of the individuals told me, everyone's gonna say the homeless problem, uh people struggling with uh homelessness, people who are de-housed, and he said, That's what everyone's gonna tell you, but they're wrong. And and his perspective, and this was a person either city council, mayor, someone in um local government, uh, who would his perspective was we have done all we can do to help these people? Uh there's all of these programs available. The people that are here now want to be in this situation. That was his perspective. Now, what do I as a Christian do? Do I listen to this um city government worker? Do I um help people? Do I give the charities? Well, the struggle with the charities is how are they using the money? Do you hear about these scandals all the time? Um, and I I think of a prominent one, but I don't want to say because I don't want to say it wrong, uh, where they're not really giving that money to anyone in need. They're actually just kind of paying salaries to a lot of workers, and so every time the money passes through another hand, a little bit gets taken away, and it's not directly going to those people in need. So it's really hard to think of this as a Christian. What are we supposed to do? But we see this clear call in scripture to help those who are in need. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 5:55

Well, I think maybe we need to establish that that there is a clear call in scripture to help those who are in need. Because that the mindset of many is going to be something like uh in you you shouldn't give to the person, you should teach them how to do something. And if they're not willing to learn, well then it's out of your control. Uh so let's establish from scripture that there is a call to help those who are in need. I think uh going to the Proverbs would be a great place to start. I'm thinking particularly of Proverbs uh 19. So uh that's and it's the 17th. So uh as we look at the Proverbs, it's always important for us to remember that these are general truth statements. Saying these things are generally true. It's always good to remember Proverbs are not promises like if this happens, this is uh is always going to happen. That's just a general reminder for all Proverbs as you look at them. But uh here's what it says is whoever is kind to the poor lends to the Lord, and he will reward them for what they have done. Right? So this is generally true saying that in life, if you are kind to the poor, you are being kind to the Lord, because the Lord loves the downtrodden, the Lord loves those who uh are lowly and he wants them to be uplifted, and then this even talks about rewards of God's grace in response uh to the generosity that one shows to the the poor and needy. Now, this is something we might struggle with as uh free grace theologians, right? That what do you mean God is gonna give because I gave? But uh that that is something scripture talks about on a number of bases uh a number of times that God is he gives a reward of his grace uh to those who in faith uh give to others. Do you have another message you want to look at here?

SPEAKER_00 8:07

Yeah, uh maybe this one's more of a rebuke of those who think they can um ignore those who are in need. So James chapter 2, when it's um when James is really warning these these Christians about the folly of thinking that you can have faith without works, faith devoid of works, uh he uses giving to the needy as an example. Uh so maybe I'll start with James chapter 2, verse 14. What good is it, my brothers, if a man claims to have faith but has no deeds? Can such faith save him? Suppose a brother or sister is without clothes and daily food. If one of you says to him, Go, I wish you well, keep warm and well fed, but does nothing about his physical needs, what good is it? In the same way, faith by itself, if not accompanied by action, is dead. But someone will say, You have faith, I have deeds, and and I don't need to get into all that. He just uses the example of um if you kind of just ignore the person and don't help them, that's not a genuine reaction of faith. Now, of course, um we need to understand James within the context of the rest of scripture. He's warning people who think that they can have faith without deeds. Uh, good works naturally flow from a heart of faith. Um, he's not saying that you saved yourself by your good works, but what he is saying is if you lack those good works, that's a problem. That's a cause for concern. And one of the examples is that you see someone in need. Now, I do want to highlight here, he does say a brother or sister, and that seems to be a pretty specific um phrase, actually word in the Greek, specific word, um, especially highlighting fellow Christians. And when we're talking about those who are in need, the Bible, especially the New Testament, especially highlights um helping those who are in need that are of the family of believers.

SPEAKER_01 10:00

Well, and you'd think the Old Testament would have this assumption because of their various ceremonial laws that really divide them from the rest of the society.

SPEAKER_00 10:09

And so there's the there's the foreigner and the stranger that is specifically um talked about in the Old Testament. Uh, but especially in the New Testament, we see uh the responsibility for caring for your brothers and sisters in the faith. Uh, you see it in the early church, the example of how they cared for one another. Uh Acts 2, they they sold what they had, and and it's almost this communal living, and they they cared for one another. And and so when we talk about the poor and the needy here specifically, um, there is this extra level of responsibility for our fellow believers. So this is a little different than that circumstance with the someone just standing outside. Um, if that was your fellow believer that was standing outside, like you better pick them up and like like if this someone that goes to your church, pick them up, like, hey, let's go and get this figured out. Um, when it's a stranger, um, maybe they do share a Bible passage, but they might just know that Christians are supposed to care for others, and so it might be disingenuous. There's some other stuff going on there. Um, but especially your fellow believers, to see your fellow believer, your fellow member of the church struggling and just ignore that, uh, that is not compatible with the life of a Christian.

SPEAKER_01 11:24

Yeah, and in our last uh episode, we had talked about uh performative righteousness. Um go so going back to one of those main passages for that, which is in Matthew chapter six, uh about not doing things for others to see, uh, what Jesus says is, but when you give to the needy, yeah, do not let your left hand know what your right hand is doing. So Jesus is saying, This will happen. When this happens, this is your approach. So we're not to make a show of it. We're not to give so that uh people may see that we are giving, but this is something we do as his people. We have this care for the poor and the needy. And this one, there isn't any um kind of uh framing around it. Jesus simply just says, the needy.

SPEAKER_00 12:19

Yeah. Yeah, there's another passage I wanted to share that gives this and it really roots it in um our love modeled after the love of Christ, 1 John chapter 3, uh starting with verse 16. This is how we know what love is. Jesus Christ laid down his life for us. So uh Christ gave so freely of himself. Um with no concern for his needs, he gives up himself, he lays down his life, and then it then speaks of our action based upon this motivation. And we ought to lay down our lives for our brothers. If anyone has material possessions and sees his brother in need, but has no pity on him, how can the love of God be in him? Dear children, let us not love with words or tongue, but with actions and in truth. This then is how we know that we belong to the truth, and we set our hearts at rest in his presence whenever our w whenever our heart condemns us, for God is greater than our hearts, and he knows everything. And and so uh there's just this natural outpouring of of love, of service to others, uh, when when you know of the truth of Jesus' sacrifice and and his love, we will love. And so we will see our brother in need, and again, here this is speaking of brother, fellow believers, especially when we see our brother in need, we are to care for that individual, we are to help them. Uh, how dare you not have pity on this person, this this fellow believer of yours, this family member.

SPEAKER_01 13:56

Yeah, so uh we we know some other Bible passages that we might often uh connect to tithing or giving to the church, uh, but they do speak generally to these truths, like God loves a cheerful giver. Uh so uh we don't want to give under compulsion necessarily all the time, but instead look at this as a wonderful opportunity. God has been so gracious and kind to me. Now I have the ability to be gracious to other people. Uh so this is something that is really important for us as Christians uh to uh to think about as we move forward. I heard you talk a little bit about kind of different groups that we should consider giving to. Um maybe you want to lay that out uh a little bit more clearly, just so we can say, like, is there an order? Because we we all have well, hopefully we all have budgets, but we all have money and we only all have only so much money. So there there probably needs to be a priority as to who we give to first.

SPEAKER_00 15:06

Yeah. It's been a little bit since I read that Martin Kemnetz uh tracks, but I'm I I'm pretty sure this order comes from him. So when it comes to the way we use our our gifts, uh obviously the the church serving God, high priority. Uh but then when we're talking about specifically like almsgiving or caring for the needs of others, uh your family members are the highest priority. Um there's a Bible passage that I can't think of off the top of my head that says, like, if you won't care for your family, how could the love of God be in you? Um then we have our fellow believers, those in in our church. Um, and and I think in these in the epistles, Paul's writing to churches. So it's a little different than our American context where there's um a lot of people, 60% of our country calls themselves a Christian. Like, oh what does that actually mean? Um, but specifically, someone who goes to your parish, I think you could put in that the in that category your fellow believers. Um so then this would diverge from communists, but then maybe you could expand that to um other Christians as well, um after maybe on a secondary level after that. Um after fellow believers in your family, then it's kind of more of the general public. Uh your and then and maybe even like your your neighbors, those in your community. And then after that, the rest of the world. Um, we have a specific um responsibility to my next door neighbor in a different way than someone who lives across the globe from me. Not saying that you don't you don't care for those people, but there is a special relationship that you have with the people who are quite literally in your path. Um, it makes me think of maybe the pro parable of the um not prodigal son, the parable of the good Samaritan. Um, and and so there's some different debate about how exactly is the best way to interpret the parable of the Good Samaritan. Um Luther looks at the Good Samaritan and says, that's Jesus' love for us. Um I think as you follow the flow of that text, I will agree that certainly seems like Jesus' love for us, but um that doesn't seem like that's the point that Jesus is trying to make. Uh that you have this expert in the law who's trying to justify himself, and then he asks, Who's my neighbor? And it seems like he's looking for some sort of excuse as to why he doesn't need to love everyone. And Jesus tells the story, the parable of the good Samaritan to kind of communicate him, communicate him to him that your responsibility is to love your neighbor, um, and there's no ifs, ands, or buts about it. Um, the good Samaritan could have had all sorts of excuses of why he didn't need to love the person, uh, this uh this man who was beat up half dead. Uh he had could have had all sorts of excuses, but he loves. He he goes above and beyond to care for this person. Um he was on that road from Jerusalem to Jericho. That's the way of robbers. He's foolish for even traveling that road by himself. Um he's a Samaritan, he's a Jew. The Samaritans, the Jews hated each other. The Jews were uh maybe not not a um a proper term for that day and age, but are essentially racist towards the Samaritans because they're the uh innerbred descendants of the enemy nation. And this would have made him ceremonially unclean. Yeah. And and to do that, and and that's where you have the priests and the Levite who ignore the man, uh, and they could have had legitimate excuses not to help this man. And you'd make a sacrifice, it'd make me unclean. I need to go make a sacrifice. I can't deal with what appears to be a dead body uh laying over there. And so Jesus tells this, and his parables are often shocking on purpose, to say, you have this responsibility to love your neighbor. There's no ifs, ands, or buts about it. Who's your neighbor? The person who's before you. So he asks that man after telling the story, who's the one that was the neighbor? And then Jesus says, Go and do likewise. And so we have this responsibility to care for the person that God puts before us. The reality is you can't do that for everyone in the world. That's just not possible. We do not have that capacity, and so there is a limiting factor of um responsibility for people around the world versus the people who are at your front door, the people who are in your community, the people who are around you. Um, it's just a a natural ability limitation because we can't we can't help everyone. Um, there's seven billion people on this planet, but you've got people who are in contact with you that you can help and support. And this is one of the things that I I think is a shame. Often in our politics and our news cycle, we spend so much time thinking globally, and I really wish that we would shrink this and think more locally. Um, because there are people who you can actually directly impact. When you think about these global issues, often they are just things that are out of your control and they just rile us up, they just get us angry. But I have people here and now in my community that I can help, I can serve. So you're upset about this. This is a little bit of a tangent. You're still upset about what schools are doing in your communities. Well, you can impact that in your community. Um, when you're talking about like this is what all the universities out there are doing, and you can get enraged, there's not much you can do about that, but you can help to impact the schools in your community. And so when it comes to alms giving, giving to charity, giving to the poor and the needy, there is an elevated responsibility to those who are in your community, your direct neighbors. So if I'm gonna give an ordering, your um your family, your fellow believers, um, your uh your direct neighbor, those in your community, and then everyone else.

SPEAKER_01 21:14

Yeah, I think those that's really important for us to consider. Uh it makes me think about back when I served in the Phoenix area. There were two service organizations uh that we would like to take uh use from our congregation to serve at. Well, one was really fun, but sent everything to Africa. One wasn't quite as fun, but uh they gave food meals to people directly there in our community. And I always had a preference for that one that gave uh food to the community because it's saying, like, hey, this is these are people who need what we're doing, and they need it right here and right now, and we can have this directly. Connection to them. Now I know sending food to Africa was actually cheaper because it wasn't the same quality food that they were sending. They're just sent rice rather. And then sending off to Africa, you can have this big mission idea. But it it's just a challenge. It's important. There are people with needs all over the world. But say, hey, when there are people right here in front of me, it seems that I do have that stronger call to go serve them.

SPEAKER_00 22:35

So it's interesting that you bring up the Africa versus your local community. Because there's a kind of a growing trend online to critique things like mission trips. Because they're saying you you send these high schoolers or college students or whatever, even adults, over to help and they dig a well or something like that. And there's all of this cost in flying them over there and and um housing them and all of this. It's quite expensive. Uh and the help some would argue is negligible. There's they're not doing that much. That's at least the opinion of people online. And so then they're saying, well, why didn't you just use that money to pay someone locally to do it? That wouldn't that be a better use of that money? Um a better better for the people in that community. And there's uh that's even what some will say about like when you donate all of these goods to people in need, actually, it would be better for them to have the money received um in their community so that there's kind of um that that flow, the strengthening of the economy in their community. Um, and actually, when you give all this stuff, it hurts their economy because um they're getting this stuff for free, and then the people who are trying to sell can't compete with free. And and so that it actually gets quite complicated. Uh now I I think that this is maybe a bit of a simplistic view because um there's benefit for the students who go and serve or the people who go and serve. Um, but it is worth considering. And there's another issue though with the the students who go and serve. I think you unintendedly communicate this idea that many have that real service is going elsewhere. Yeah, real mission work, real um social care is going elsewhere when we have people in our own communities that we have a responsibility to care for.

SPEAKER_01 24:42

Yeah. It's interesting that you brought this up because I had a fascinating conversation in my previous context with a woman who was doing her uh doctoral studies. Uh, and she she was from Africa, she had adopted uh children from Africa because of a tragic situation, and we got connected with them at our school and uh took her and uh her husband through Bible information class. Um, and then had a really interesting conversation with her uh about this very thing. Uh and based off of her studies and the things that she was working in, uh she had a pretty strong opinion that things like this were more harmful to those in Africa than they were helpful, although well intended, because uh it it does throw off the supply chain. So rather than uh like buying the rice from that local farmer, you are actually just putting more supplies into um uh into their economy. And now I'm not well versed in the economy of every African country, right? It's a huge continent, so we should be careful to not make large sweeping statements, although people do that about Africa all the time. Large sweeping statements about a very diverse continent. Uh but uh what we want to be careful is that when our helping actually starts hurting people, and that's what her concern was. Uh and that's what can happen when you have some of these mission trips is it becomes more about the experience than the actual helping of those people. I think back to when we were in uh in high school, uh not that there was anything wrong with mission trips, and I think there was a lot of good personal motivation that I had going on a mission trip. Uh, but it look back at we we lived in the northern suburbs of Milwaukee, and there are lots of people uh in northern Milwaukee who need help.

SPEAKER_02 26:52

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 26:52

Uh there there would have been a mission field right there in front of us. Or when you come when you go beyond the uh just the physical help, but you know, when you go to the gospel need the uh even in the the suburbs of Milwaukee, there would be people who need that mission as well.

SPEAKER_00 27:08

The one way I would maybe push back against someone who would say, like, not sending goods or whatever. Uh one of the issues with that is the reality of the human condition is that people like to use their money to buy something to say this is what I gave. They like there's like they like there to be something tangible. Um, then they know exactly where their money's going. And and so we know this from a church perspective. Uh, when you say, hey, give money to support the budget, versus hey, give money to support this building project, people are more inclined to support the building project because there's something tangible that they can in 20 years point and say, hey, we helped to to bring this about. Or when they're giving something specific, like we've had different drives to give for um maybe the new hymnals or something like that. And and people like the idea of, hey, there's something specific. I know exactly how this is being used, and and versus I don't know where that money is going. Now, churches were very transparent about our our budget, our members vote on the budget. Uh, if anyone wanted an update, we regularly give updates. Um, but even with that, people like seeing something tangible. I I like to say, hey, this is what I gave. And so when it comes to giving to the poor and the needy, um, some people, and and rightfully so in some cases, don't want to just give money because where's that money going? Um, who's this paying? Am I paying a bunch of salaries for um I like this the way someone might talk for a bunch of bureaucratic positions, and and they're just gonna skim off the top, and what 20% of the money I gave is actually going to help someone in need? And so I I know we had something similar to this at my congregation where we were um my my daughter had spent time in in the hospital a couple times in the hospital, and my family had personally benefited off of the Ronald McDonald House charities where we were able to uh go across the street from the hospital and get food for free. My older kids were able to play in the playground. Uh, we just really appreciated what the Ronald McDonald House charities were doing. And so it was coming to Thanksgiving, and we're like, hey, it would be really nice if we could do some some charitable giving as a congregation. So we thought, well, let's sort of support the Ronald McDonald House charities. I don't really know how Ronald McDonald House uses their monies, their money. I I have some suspicions that there might be some causes we might not necessarily always um agree with. And uh there's also just like the worry that people had about like, well, what where's the money going if we do give money? So then like, can we give supplies? And from our experience, we know that they use supplies to give directly to the people who are there. Um there are moms who are there with their baby that need to shower, and and so there's shower supplies that are donated, there's snacks for kids, there's all sorts of uh of just like toiletries or whatever else. And and so we're like, well, we can collect that type of stuff, or even diapers, because they're um people are leaving and and maybe they didn't have time to go buy diapers or whatever. And so that was an opportunity where we could say, hey, we're gonna because we don't know that much about this charity outside of what people have received, um, and it is run by a billion dollar company. Um, if we give these suppliers, we know they're gonna go directly to the people who need them.

SPEAKER_01 30:44

Yeah. I think we have two facets, and it'd be good to kind of approach the two different facets to this almsgiving. We have the avenue of giving it straight to the individual, and we have the avenue of giving it uh to an organization that helps individuals. Uh so uh you had spoken a little bit about the organization, so maybe let's pivot first to straight to the individual, and even put ourselves in that very common situation. Again, you're driving down the road, you see a person, they have a sign that says, uh uh, I believe in Jesus, God bless, get any money that can help. What are what are the reasons that a Christian should think about not giving to that individual? Or why should they? Yeah. Um so maybe I'll take I'll take the why not. You take the why they should. So the the why not situation is if you if you're going through and then you you've read the studies and you've heard the reasons that there's a big percentage of professional panhandlers, and this is just their job, and they're making money off of doing something, and this is uh ill-got gains that they're not claiming taxes on you, and you are aiding and vetting them doing something sinful and wrong, and you say, I don't want to play a role in them doing something sinful and wrong. Or you live in a municipality that says giving money directly to these people is is something we don't want you to do, and then I remember in Scottsdale, Arizona, they even had recommendations, give to St. Mary's Food Bank or something instead. So they would tell you directly where to give instead. So if you live in a municipality that says, like, hey, we recognize that giving directly to people who are on the corners of the streets doesn't help, it'd be a good idea to probably respect the government on that one and say, I'm gonna help in a different way. Or perhaps you look at someone and you're like, this person is bottomed out because it's apparent that they are using drugs. Maybe you can see the track marks on his arms, or or you can just kind of see like due to the lack of because of his skin complexion and losing teeth that he's using meth or something like that. You might say he's not in the position to properly receive this money right now, and this would not help him. Uh so then you're saying, I I want to actually help him, I don't want to aid in this person's problem. Uh so I could see those would be reasons why a Christian would drive by and say, I'm not gonna give any money to this person right now.

SPEAKER_00 33:38

Now, here's maybe reasons that you would think to do it. When it comes to alms giving, um, giving to the poor and the needy, I I I think there's a Bible passage about this. I remember Kemnitz talking about this, but basically, this guidance to just not consider why. Um, there's at least that historic guidance. Like it's not your job to be the judge here. Uh, there's a person in need, support the person who's in need. And so if you play this game of being the judge, uh this can become a very dangerous game because you can your sinful nature can easily use that as an excuse to never support anyone who's in need. And and I think that's part of this. There is a legitimate heart problem, agreed, a covetous problem that is behind all of this, that our sinful nature wants to justify not supporting those who are in need because we want that money. We want to keep it for ourselves. And and so when I play the judge, it's very easy to say, like, well, you know, they have X, Y, and Z as problems. Well, of course, someone who's in need has problems. How else would they get in in need? I think there's also a lack of empathy in a situation like that. Um, uh the what's the phrase, uh, wherefore, but by the grace of God go I? Like that that could be me. Now it's very easy for me to think, no, it couldn't, but it legitimately could. It is by the grace of God that He has made me who I am, that I'm not in that position. And there are very um real things outside of my control that have put me into the position that I am now. Um, I have loving family members who have supported me uh in in times of difficulty or in youth when I'm going through college and seminary that are outside of my control. I didn't pick what family to be born in. Uh, and and so God has put me in this position, has given me resources, and calls me to serve and love others. And so to put myself as the judge is putting yourself into kind of dangerous territory. And then the the problem with going to the either the government solution or the um charitable organization solution is some of the things that I've been hinting at. Um, the charitable organization can sometimes be difficult because it's like, well, where is the money going? That that's always the concern. Is this paying salaries or is this directly going to people who are in need? The other issue with like kind of the government one is government support and mean getting government support is very complicated. It is a very complicated system. And there are people who just whether they're um intellectually it's it's confusing for them or or whatever it might be, that getting what they need um requires a um a lot of processes to go through, persistence, and and so someone might say like it's just too complicated for some people, and and maybe it is. Um just from knowing people who had to apply for different levels of support in different ways, there was a lot of difficulty, or I I've even heard in circumstances where someone's on like state insurance and they they need to still appeal to get things covered, and so uh there's a lot of complicated processes when it comes to getting government support. And so then it you look at that person and and say, you know, like they should have done X, Y, and Z, but I understand why they didn't. And and so there are some of those reasons why giving directly to that person, hey, that that could be a good idea. Uh now, uh maybe maybe you're like, I don't want to give them money, uh, but I know many many people are saying, like, hey, you know, I can I can give them food. Like if I go and talk to that person, uh, let's say they're standing outside of a store, and and they s and then they're asking for money, and it's like, hey, I'm not gonna get your money, but I'll I'll buy you food, and they say, sure. Well, for me, what harm is it? It was five bucks. And for them, it was food uh that they need to live on.

SPEAKER_01 38:01

Yeah, this doesn't happen as often in my current context as in my previous context. My in my previous context, uh, very often if I'd go to Circle K or if I would go to Walgreens, there would be a person sitting outside. I obviously a homeless person, and very often people would be asking for help. They're like, Can I have a few dollars? I need a bus ticket. Um I I I know a lot of times you can buy bus tickets at Circle K. So sometimes I would ask them, Hey, where do you want me to like get this ticket for? Do you want to go in with me? And this is where the challenge is, is uh sometimes people are lying. Yeah. And once you offer that specific help, unfortunately, it it can get declined.

SPEAKER_02 38:50

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 38:51

And that's what ends up probably creating more frustration amongst people. Like you have the person sitting out wall outside of Walgreens, they want they want a few dollars because they're gonna uh uh buy a 40 when they go inside. Yeah uh but uh they say they want a few dollars, and you're like, oh, I I'm not gonna give you money, but um do you want me to buy you a butterfinger or something like that? Yeah. And then they decline it because uh the unfortunate thing is that you are still dealing with sinful people. Sin people sinful people lie, sinful people do things that they should not do.

SPEAKER_00 39:27

Yeah. Um so what we're dealing with is Jesus gives instructions to be as innocent as doves but as shrewd as vipers. And so uh yes, we don't want to be put ourselves up as a judge, but also we don't want to be taken advantage of. God has been giving us brains. And and I think one of the things that can be difficult is as a pastor of uh of a congregation where um maybe the pastor is the one doing a lot of the administrative behind the scenes type of work is you become frustrated with bad actors where there because there are people who just call through the list of churches and they uh they you can like you can kind of tell that they're lying. Um and like you've heard that and there's people where you've heard them call your church three or four times and they get into that the their like they have a script and I'm sure you've heard stuff like this before. And and then you get jaded and it's like, well, they're clearly just taking advantage of people. Um and and so then that's where it gets complicated. And as an individual Christian, you you've seen it before. You've seen these people. That person's been on the street for so long. I this person stands in front of Walgreens and and I asked I offered I offered to they said that they needed to buy food for their family, and uh this is a real story. They said they needed to buy food for their family, and I said, Oh, like what are you making? And and they said, Well, uh, I want to make burgers. And I said, Hey, you know, they actually have all of the stuff inside of here for burgers. They even have ground beef, I know they do. They sell uh they sell those cases of ground beef. I'll go and buy the buns, the burger, uh the ground beef, the cheese, um, and and some chips or something, and then it gets declined. And so that that's where it gets frustrating. So it's finding that balance of being as innocent as doves and as shrewd as vipers to be giving, but also be wise. And and that's where it gets really frustrating and very complicated as Christians.

SPEAKER_01 41:34

Yeah, and going back to that uh Chemnitz track that you had referenced, one of the points that he gives is to avoid prodigality. So you know, like the word prodigal. Like, we don't want to knowingly support people wasting their money. Uh so then if if you know someone is just not taking good care of their finances, there is there is a per certain uh point in which you can say, like, hey, I can't give to you anymore, or I will give to you with these strings attached. Uh, this is something we did in my previous congregation. If someone would ask for help with rent or something like that, it was typically uh you need to sit down with one of the pastors and we're gonna walk through your budget with you uh because uh we want to make sure that we're we're not just giving you the money, but we're helping you move into a sustainable future with these things.

SPEAKER_00 42:36

And and I think the the difficult thing is there are people who don't like that idea. And and this is a trend online recently where there was that those people who were just calling random churches trying to expose them for their lack of generosity, and and I didn't really watch a lot of them because I just thought they were annoying. But it maybe it did expose some churches, I don't know. But a lot of people just think a church should just give no questions asked. But I I don't think people understand that a lot of churches do really have limited budgets and they're making decisions of what to do with it, and then you're talking to like maybe their secretary or a pastor who's like, I don't have control of our finances, and we we don't have a lot of the setup means to support someone.

SPEAKER_01 43:27

Um, and so maybe a church does, but it's like, well, we need to be wise about um who we are supporting and what we're doing with this money because we have limited funds and we don't want to waste a baby's crying in the background on the phone and they're asking for formula, you can probably say, Come on by, we'll help figure something out.

SPEAKER_02 43:44

Exactly.

SPEAKER_01 43:45

Uh yeah. The although it might not be popular to say that there needs to be wisdom in approaching these things, uh uh so that we can help these people in the greatest possible way in ways that we Actually, can help. So that's the individual. I think it's also good to think about wisdom and discernment in regard to organization. So here's a common situation. You're checking out of the local grocery store and says, Do you want a roundup to the nearest dollar to give to children in need? Or you're going to Taco Bell and then that it says you want to roundup to give to the LiveMoss fund or something like that. Or Ronald McDonald charities. I think that's like the classic example. Yeah. So then you have all these things. And um I I think there's a lot of people, I'll I'll even add myself there, who kind of out of annoyance at this point just say no right away. It's like people are sick of being asked every single time they they get something. Um and maybe it's greedy greedy, maybe it's wrong because they're they're annoyed because it's like, well, McDonald's is so much more expensive than it used to be, and now you want me to round it up to an extra dollar.

SPEAKER_00 45:04

Uh yeah. So and there's also like a a cynical side of this where it's the corporation wouldn't be doing this if there's no um advantage for them. And I don't know if this is true, but I had heard at one point that basically um there are tax incentives for the the donation to funnel through them that they're giving this money, and um, and then they're tax they can claim these deductions. I like again, I'm not educated enough on corporate tax accounting, but that's something I had heard. And it made like it makes sense.

SPEAKER_01 45:41

Yeah. So then here's my first encouragement that I would give to uh considering giving in in this realm is following that instruction of of Christ to be as innocent as doves and as shrewd as serpents, uh, is that we want to approach giving and have knowledge about who it is and what it is we're giving to. Um because this is kind of my challenge. Uh and one time I I was going through the Taco Bell drive-thru. Uh, this was back when I lived in Tempe. I haven't gone to a Taco Bell drive-thru in a while, but uh they had asked, like, do you want to give a roundup to give to the Taco Bell uh scholarship fund? And then I said this was my response. Uh that sounds interesting. Could I get some materials read more about that? Uh and that's not something they had available to me at the moment. Uh, because it was just rounding up 30 cents, I didn't look into it further. Um, but with all of our money, we do want to make sure that it's being used in as godly of a way as it can be. And so I I do know when I would go to the gas station, there would be a a change dropping area. And I I usually like to drop my change into those because it does go to charity, but then um I also didn't like carrying change on me. Um but then the problem happened is when they started to having having rainbow-colored stuff above that. So then all of a sudden it's like, well, I don't want my money to support something that's sinful and wrong.

SPEAKER_00 47:34

Or you have the ringers outside of a store around the Christmas season for the Salvation Army, and a lot of Christians don't realize that the Salvation Army is a church that is anti-sacramental. Like, not only do they not believe in the power of baptism in the Lord's Supper, if I remember correctly, they don't just don't even do them. No, they they do water instead of wine in the Lord's Supper. And then they don't, I think they don't do baptisms. I I would need to double check that. But they like it it's beyond like what like what we might call like uh the sacramentalists, like those who don't believe in the power but still do them. Uh they they are anti-sacramental and and they're they're a church. So when you're supporting them, like I don't know how the dividing of the money works, but like that should give you a pause for concern.

SPEAKER_01 48:22

Yeah, so asking the question about what is the money gonna do, if it's going to support a charitable cause that is actually just sinful and wrong, uh such as supporting the whole gambit of LGBT things that would be talked about, then we're gonna say, I don't want to give money to that organization. If that money is going to go to a false teaching church, then you're gonna say, I don't want to give money.

SPEAKER_00 48:52

I don't want to support their uh them leading people away from the truth of God's word. That's where it gets complicated. And I know churches often look for charities partnership to partner with. So many charities are connected with churches and that or they are vaguely religious, because uh by the grace of God, God works through Christians to to be charitable and support others, and and we uh thank him for that, even when um fellow believers who are part of the invisible church but not our not part of our church do support others uh the for the good of their neighbor, that's wonderful. Um, but it does become a little more complicated with uh for us, and and that's where you're saying, like it's directly part of a church, a branch of their ministry, um, that might be like where you're saying, hey, that's supporting a falsely teaching church versus the one that's a little more vaguely religious, um, and uh that that might you might be a little more comfortable with, and so that that's where you kind of get um we don't need to necessarily get into weeds about fellowship, but you get this this complicated conversation. Do you give to the um Christian organization who believes differently on a handful of issues, or do you give to the um the secular organization who disagrees with us on almost every matter of morality? And and that's and and that's where it gets a little more complicated. And and so um I'll you like encourage someone. Am I directly supporting a church that teaches falsely? Then I I might not want to do that. Uh once you talk like charitable organizations that are Christian versus not, that's where it gets a little um more difficult.

SPEAKER_01 50:34

Yeah, and I think as looking into the organizations is uh always going to be helpful if they have Christian roots, uh, but at this point they're not engaged in uh evangelizing, proselytizing, and they're just doing it.

SPEAKER_00 50:51

Or it was never their purpose.

SPEAKER_01 50:53

Yeah, it was never their purpose.

SPEAKER_00 50:55

Maybe they'll throw a Bible passage in with their food packet or something like that. But it was never their purpose was never to proselytize.

SPEAKER_01 51:04

It would seem that we would feel less uncomfortable with partnering because what if they're not going out and actively teaching, well, it doesn't seem we're supporting their heterodox ministry, but instead, this is what we we sometimes call cooperation in externals. We have joined together to help out in this greater cause. Um I I I think of in my in my previous setting uh there was a uh charitable organization that had a name that was very Christian. And then we had this conversation amongst the pastoral staff. Like, how how do we talk about this if we're gonna encourage people to uh volunteer here? Because what we don't want it sound like we're telling them to go volunteer at another church, uh, because we we've done clearly to talk about the importance of uh mark and avoid, right? We don't want to uh mix together with false teaching and support it in any way. Um, but then the the history of the organization shows that although they had a Christian name uh and Christian roots, at this point, all they did was serve people. Um now what we always have to be careful about though is every action we we make, although people shouldn't draw an application from that, people can draw an application from that. And this is something that looking back at it maybe could kind of started to happen. It's like, well, if you guys are fine doing that there, we're fine doing this here. And it's like, well, we can't we can't make this an apples apple situation. This one organization is not uh doing rebaptisms, that organization is doing rebaptisms, so it it becomes challenging as we approach organizations. The encouragement as a Christian is to just look into what it is you're doing, uh to do so with a heart to glorify God in everything, holding true to his word and glorifying him by helping those who are in need. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 53:22

I I think one thing we just need to maybe hammer home is this heart problem that I referenced earlier. Because we've had this long conversation um about the difficulty of helping those in need with the responsibility, and what I think the the issue can be is that this just turns into an excuse to to do nothing. Um we are um so concerned that the money is going to be misused that we're just not gonna give to people who are in need, and I I think that is problematic in in multiple ways. I I think first it downplays the sinful nature. Um we are born dead in sin, we are baptized, we are believers, but we still have that that sin waging war in us, that that simulustis epicator, Romans 7 type thought. We have that sinful nature that that hates God and wants to do the opposite. And we can't downplay that, uh, especially when it comes to how it might trick us into being selfish and to lack a generous heart and lack a caring heart. Uh, and then to think about the power of money. It is a root of all kinds of evil. Um, there is some allure that money has in a different way uh that that causes us to to really become um self-concerned. And and so I think we really need to to think about the heart issue behind this. I am just venturing to guess that the average American is probably more inclined to to explain away why they shouldn't give than um to accidentally give too much to bad causes. I don't know. Do you have any thoughts about that?

SPEAKER_01 55:19

Well, I I think there's there's people who make more money than I do, uh uh, or they have different tax situations than I do where there's uh greater tax advantages to giving. Um so then like I I know that in the state of Arizona, uh if you were if you had a s you could use a certain amount of your state income tax to make donations. So uh that made giving kind very common uh in the state of Arizona because people would just give and then it would it would offset their state income taxes. So I but there still is that question of the heart behind it. Like if the if it's the heart of saying, hey, I get to choose where they get this gets redirected, awesome. If it's just like uh who cares? Well, this is something I can do anyway. Uh not really, God loves a cheerful giver situation, not a desiring to help other people because God has been so gracious to me, there can be an issue. Uh and yeah, I I think that is something that we want to think about is uh do we as do we as Christians uh take those opportunities to help those who are in need? Um one thing I would want to tie it to uh in the conversation of stewardship, we've talked about money pretty much the whole time, but we will often talk about time, talent, and treasures. Uh so then to say uh in this helping the the needy, there is room for using your time and your talents to help them as well, to say go and volunteer at that organization. And maybe this will be what flows from that heart of of faith. Uh say, oh, I don't have the financial resources right now to give, but I do have a free Saturday to go help serve in that food line. Yeah. I do have a uh I do have the ability to volunteer at my local uh senior center, which uh uh helps these people out. Like I do have time, I do have talent, and I can use those to support those in need as well.

SPEAKER_00 57:45

And it doesn't need to be helping an organization specifically, it could just be helping your neighbor. Um, there's a good chance that you have an elderly neighbor who needs help with tasks around their house. Uh, there's a good chance that you have people in your community that need help in various ways who can't afford the help. Uh maybe maybe it's your daughter-in-law who needs help with babysitting because they can't afford childcare. And and so there's different ways that you can help someone who is not necessarily in our normal idea of poor and needy, but who is um in need of support, and you can use your your time and abilities to help that person, and it doesn't necessarily need to be an organization either. And if you feel like you don't have any time to help people who are in are in need, um, there is a a certain point of considering our priorities. And I was listening to a podcast where a Lutheran pastor was kind of saying how your your time really does a better job of reflecting um what you believe than what you say. And he was talking about how Facebook um when they they first um added the news feed feature of Facebook, all these people complained about it. And they said they don't we don't like this. And the investors are like telling Mark Zuckerberg, we need to pivot away from this, people don't like this. And they looked at the metrics, and Mark Zuckerberg was looking at the metrics and he said, People are saying this but engagement is drastically increased. And and so their their actions communicated something different than what their words were saying. And and that might be an opportunity for reflection. I say that it's good to help the poor and the needy, but I never can find time to do it and I I don't have the money to to do it. Um there's a point to reflect and say, well, uh maybe my my actions are are reflecting what my heart really holds to be the truth.

SPEAKER_01 59:46

Yeah. So uh and it doesn't need to be anything huge, right? Uh just start small. That's our encouragement with so many things. Um maybe you find the the one neighbor who you can help out, maybe you find the one organization where you can help out once a month.

SPEAKER_00 1:00:04

Uh maybe you find uh that the nice uh wells organization that you can make donations to maybe your church, maybe you can uh spearhead an effort at your congregation to do something a little more charitable, and and that can be beneficial as well in an evangelistic purpose. Not that we do um acts of love and service merely for um evangelism purposes, I think that actually can have the opposite effect where it looks disingenuous, but maybe you can um be the person who spearheads a campaign at your local congregation to do some of this.

SPEAKER_01 1:00:39

And as um as a pastor who has been in a variety of of settings now through serving as a student pastor and now being in two different situations, uh one encouragement I would always give in regard to that is going to the pastor or the church council with the recommendation of not saying you guys should do this or pastor you should do this, saying I think we should do this, and how can I help make this happen? Um because if it's just I'm gonna give it a task to someone else to do, that's gonna make it harder and harder. Yeah. No, we we're recognizing that we're gonna have this sinful struggle over it, but one thing I do have to say is I have seen the generosity of God's people. Like I I know some of the things that my members do, the people who have retired and ha have now seen this as an opportunity for God to use them to serve other people. And they they do wonderful things out of acts of faith. And I've been the recipient of the generosity that people have shown. So we are thankful for how the fact that God moves his people, and it's moved by the gospel of Christ Jesus that Jesus lived on and rose for us, and uh he gave us the greatest treasure of heaven and now moves us to share our treasures with others.

SPEAKER_00 1:02:00

Um we we thank God for his people who are so generous in so many different ways, and we are motivated by the truth of and and love of Jesus. And so we talked about 1 John 3, Jesus as an example, but he's more than an example, he's far greater than an example. He is our substitute and and savior, and he is the one who died for all of our sins, even including the times that we are selfish, self-concerned, uh, and and greedy. Jesus died for all of those sins, and now he uh he moves us to live for him in all that we do, to to do all things to his glory. And one of the ways that we do this is by uh caring for those who he puts before us. God bless. God bless.