Can Christians not want kids? (Ep. 24)

With the rising cost of living, more and more people are choosing not to have children. How should Christians think about this decision? Is choosing to remain childless a matter of Christian freedom, or does Scripture offer a different perspective?

Join Pastors Chris and Tony as they explore the Bible’s teaching on the single life, marriage, children, and the proper use of birth control. Together, they discuss how Christians can approach family planning faithfully in a culture with changing views on marriage and parenthood.

Transcript

SPEAKER_01 0:01

With inflation on the rise, with the piling up of student loans, with many other considerations and the desire to travel, experience life to its fullest, there are many young couples or young people who are saying I don't want to have children. Is this an approach that a Christian can or should have? Could a Christian approach life and say, I don't want to have children? In today's episode, we're going to talk about this idea about having children, how Christians should approach such an aspect of life. My name is Chris Flugheft. I'm joined by my brother Tony Flugheft. We are pastors in Southern California, Lutheran churches. I serve at Grace Lutheran. Tony serves at Christ the Vine Lutheran. And this is Double Portion, a podcast in which twin Lutheran pastors discuss Christian living and studying the scriptures. But if someone told you, Pastor, I don't want to have children in my life, how do you approach that situation?

SPEAKER_00 1:44

Well, this is a topic that comes up when I do kind of pre-marriage counseling. I intentionally bring it up. What is your plan about children in the future? And then I bring it up in my new member class as well. Once we get through the Ten Commandments in my new member class, we do one lesson just on the sixth commandment, and then I'll talk about other things that relate concerning marriage, family, and the roles of men and women. So spend a whole lesson talking about that. And so this is a conversation that I'll have, and and I've even put up this question at the end of the lesson. What do Christians say about birth control? And so I I've had this conversation with young people before, and there are people who are interested. One of the issues we need to fight against as Lutherans in particular is narrowing the scope of the law to just what we would call the second use of the law, the convicting of sinfulness. And I every once in a while when we get into these more nuanced issues, people will say, Well, are you saying that they're gonna go to hell if they don't do X, Y, or Z? And so then it's like, Well, are you saying if they don't have kids, they're going to hell? And and uh kind of just push back that that urge to automatically jump to that and say, Well, we're we're talking in the realm of of Christians pursuing a life of holiness and service to God. And so we don't need to automatically jump to the like, well, are w am I saying that they are damned if they don't do this? And and then that's an automatic avoidance of the conversation. Saying, no, we're Christians who want to serve God with our life, so let's talk about it. What does God have to say about this? So it's a conversation that is worth talking about. And I and I might even start in that way of saying, like, we don't need to automatically jump to are you damned if you do this or saved if you don't, like and start talking about like salvation through our works or something like that. But let's talk about how do we please God. And so let's look at some of the passages and and the call to call to serve God with our life, and then how that specifically plays it out in issues of marriage and family.

SPEAKER_01 3:55

Yeah, just as the psalm says, your word is a lamp to my feet and a light from my path, we as Christians want to use God's word for guidance in all that we do. And so the law it it always convicts, but it does not only convict. It guides the Christian. So if a Christian young person wants to approach a life to glorify God, uh they can use this law to guide them in what how they are going to do this. Going to this scenario of a young person saying, I don't want to have children, or if they can even have that conversation, I think part of it needs to be what state in life is this person in right now? It's a different thing if this is a young couple in premarriage counseling with their pastor, as opposed to a young person who is in college and does not have a significant other. So those are different circumstances. So we want to talk about that. I think it would be helpful to consider what the apostle Paul writes in uh 1 Corinthians chapter 7 as he addresses this state of singlehood and how one can use such a life in glorifying God. So this is what Paul writes starting with verse seven. I wish that all of you were as I am, but each of you has your own gift from God. One has this gift, another has that. Now to the unmarried and the widows, I say it is good for them to stay unmarried, as I do. But if they cannot control themselves, they should marry, for it is better to marry than to burn with passion. At times this is called the gift of Paul, the idea that there's someone who could continue on in their life without that burning for passion and lust, and such a person could use that life to glorify God. Not that it's a higher calling, but it is a different calling in life. So I I've used this scenario before. As a pastor with a wife and five children, there are certain callings that I have that do hold my back, hold me back from potentially going out into the community further, being more available to people in my congregation because I I'm a dad, because I am a husband, and I want to fulfill those vac vocations faithfully as well. So there is a scenario where you could think about the freedom for service that a single person would have who is not married and does not have children. So if someone has such a gift that Paul is talking about here, that would lead them to not burn with lust in the single state, and they say, I want to use my life to glorify God, whether that is directly in the public ministry or not, I can totally see that scenario. And it would be good and God pleasing to say, I'm going to remain in this single state and I'm going to use my life in service to the Lord. So if such a person would come up to me with that thought, this is how I would respond. That could be a scenario. However, what I would encourage is sometimes people will maybe make that decision too young in their mind. I could imagine someone in high school who is not really thrilled with the dating prospects in their high school, and then they think, oh, maybe I am just one of these people with the gift of Paul. You don't know. There's more people you might meet. As you mature and grow older, your view on these things might change. This is actually why it in Martin Luther's writings, uh, when he writes against the forced celibacy on uh on priests and the oaths that they'd make them take in his day, he speaks against it, especially when they'd forced that oath on someone that was very young.

SPEAKER_02 8:24

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 8:24

Before they've had the ability to mature, before they've had the ability to really think through this, then they make this oath about celibacy. And he talks about that being an illegitimate oath. So kind of bringing that together, if the there is a person who says, I don't have this desire, it seems to be a spiritual gift that I have from the Lord that I want to use my life in service, that can be a good and pleasing approach to life.

SPEAKER_00 8:56

Yeah. One of the things I want to note about this section, I can't find the specific verse, but I remember leading my church through Bible studying this section, is he talks about like this present circumstance. And people are talking about what exactly is going on here. And some hypothesize that he he's talking about like we're in the end times. I don't think it's specifically that we're in the end times because like that's the time we're in as the church, but rather it it seems there's some sort of persecution going on in Corinth. And he's saying because there's this persecution, it might be better to just not get married. He gets a little more specific beyond the point that you were reading, and and saying there's this these problems going on. So that's a little bit of a different context of the immediate persecution than maybe what we're facing in America today, and and what someone in our context might consider. The other thing that I wanted to bring up is uh verse let's see nine of 1 Corinthians 7. But if they cannot control themselves, they should marry, for it is better to marry than to burn with passion. And so this is the person who can live their life without burning with passion. And so I don't know what exactly what degree that looks like. Someone makes that dedication to to live a celibate life. But this obviously means you're not sleeping around, you're not watching pornography, and and if you're constantly burning with passion and you're constantly saying no to the point like you're always, not always, but you're regularly falling into sin, this might mean you don't have that gift. So we we need to make sure that we're actually speaking of people who have this ability to not burn with passion who are going to make this decision for their life. So that that's one one category that we need to make sure to consider in this conversation. That person that's gonna make the first Corinthians 7 decision to serve God with their life isn't to be the person who burns with passion. Another consideration with this is Paul's not talking about the people who couldn't get married because they have not been able to find someone in marriage. Like we need to rightfully understand that someone who desires marriage but can't find someone to marry, that's a tragic situation, and often it's because there's sin involved, whether it's the sin of the people around us or the the sin of the themselves as well. I mean, we need to consider that. And so you can comfort the person who desires marriage and say you can serve God, but if that person does not feel like they are called to this life of singleness and they desire marriage, that is actually a tragic thing. And and we maybe as a church we can help them find someone to marry that they desire. And that's where I would say, like, we see a lot of this happen with young men is they want to be married and they just haven't been able to find someone. So, how do we equip them to find someone for marriage? How do we um bring up different opportunities for them to marry a a Christian woman? So those are two points that I wanted to say, kind of taking out of this consideration. The person that desires marriage but can't find marriage is not what 1 Corinthians 7 is talking about. And the person who maybe says they don't want to get married, but they burn with passion and give into those sinful lusts, that's not what 1 Corinthians 7 is talking about either.

SPEAKER_01 12:32

Yeah. I I think in connection, there's something else that Jesus had said in Matthew 19 that can be helpful for this consideration. So Jesus is talking about marriage and divorce and the seriousness of marriage, and the disciples respond to him in what seems to be a little bit of an immature way. And this is what it's written. The disciples said to him, If this is the situation between a husband and wife, it is better not to marry. And Jesus replied, Not everyone can accept this word, but only those to whom it has been given. For there are eunuchs who were born that way, and there are eunuchs who have been made eunuchs by others, and there are those who choose to live like eunuchs for the sake of the kingdom of heaven. The one who can accept this should accept it. So Jesus is talking about some who can choose to accept that single state. Well, maybe some who choose to for the sake of the kingdom, similar to the ideas of Paul. But the the people who are born eunuchs, I think that would be an interesting conversation to ask about. Like what does that mean to be born a eunuch? But either way, this this person who then being married and having children isn't really an option. And then Jesus uh Jesus.

SPEAKER_00 14:09

Whether it's physically or if it's just not like they're born without that desire.

SPEAKER_01 14:13

Yeah. So then Jesus gives them that encouragement. Like that that can be a difficult thing to take on, but it certainly is an option of something that a Christian can take on. And I just want to underline those who choose to live like eunuchs for the sake of the kingdom of heaven. So God's kingdom, the kingdom of heaven is his ruling activity in the hearts of believers. When we pray your kingdom come, we talk about the the gospel ministry. Yeah. So people who are not forced into celibacy as happens in the Roman Catholic Church, but people who choose to for the sake of the gospel, that can be a good and God-pleasing thing. Jesus says it's a hard thing, but it can be a good thing.

SPEAKER_00 15:01

Yeah, that I mean that's interesting. We could go down all sorts of roads about like what would that look like choosing to be eunuchs? Uh I would assume that this is a life of of single singleness. And I don't even know if we want to go down this road, but like the the married couple who chooses to for the husband to get a vasectomy or whatever it might be so that they don't have children, because they're like, Oh, free us up, but then they're still able to enjoy the the sex of marriage. Like that's where it maybe gets into a little bit of a more nuanced conversation. But this context, I I would say like choosing to be eunuchs is talking about like someone who's obviously not not married, they're not having sexual relations, and so we can get into like more birth control stuff in a little bit, but right now we're talking about people who decide to stay single, decide not to marry, not to have a family. And so there's a legitimate reason that someone might say, For service to God, I'm going to stay single. But my caution there is again, know yourself. In our world today, this is maybe more difficult than ever because of access to things people have on their phone. This does not mean that you're watching internet pornography or lusting after women on on social media and gratifying your own desires. Like that that is a that is not what this is talking about.

SPEAKER_02 16:28

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 16:28

And so you're gonna flee from sin and temptation. And so I just if someone's using that defense, they probably aren't using it themselves. Maybe their parents are talking about like, well, they're they're staying single, but Paul talks about that. Well, is that actually what's going on?

SPEAKER_01 16:46

Yeah, what Jesus said at the beginning of this, not everyone can accept this word, but only those to whom it has been given. That is a challenging thing. It is a challenging thing to for the average person to go forward in that life of singleness and to avoid that lust of temptation in our world where uh social media even brings pornography before before someone's eyes. Like they don't need to go seek it out. The algorithm will have that pornography find them. And we don't need to get too graphic with these things, but maybe sometimes our social sensitivities cause us to not say things that we should say, such as masturbation is sinful, watching pornography on your phone is sinful. Yeah, doing these things regularly is sinful. So then if you are living in a life where you choose the state of singlehood, but you are engaging in these sinful things over and over again, you do have to ask very seriously of where is your heart? Yeah. Because if you just continue to fall into this sin, at a certain point you're gonna have to ask, is this now willful, yeah, malicious, intentional sin?

SPEAKER_00 18:12

So I think we've established that there is a legitimate road, biblically speaking, for someone to say, I choose not to have children because they're choosing that life of singleness and service to God, and that can be a wonderful blessing you talked about before. There are how do I say complications at times serving as a pastor because I've got a family. And there there are many blessings that also come up because I've got a family, which we're not talking about that right now, but the fact that I don't have the same amount of time to dedicate towards my ministry as someone who's single is obvious. So there is a legitimate road for someone to say that. Uh, we could also talk about the maybe just briefly, the the person who desires marriage and desires children and they're not able to have children. So whether it is the person who just like can't find someone to marry, or it's the person who struggles with like that inability, that physical inability to have children. I I I guess I just want to say like ultimately, in a lot of ways, this conversation is not about them. And and we could have a whole separate conversation about those situations, but we're talking about the vast majority of people who are able to have children who maybe just don't want to. And so this isn't about the person who's struggling with infertility. Yeah. This isn't about the person who so desperately desires to find marriage, but they can't find a good and godly spouse out there in this world that we live in. So there there is maybe some points to consider when it comes to the person who desires marriage. Like, are you are you discrediting good and godly people for sinful reasons? Is that why you're not able to find a spouse? Like, is it that you're being shallow? Is it that you are not or maybe maybe the problem is like you're not even putting yourself out there? Okay, like there's there's other things that we could talk about, but when we're saying there's a person who legitimately desires to be married and they just can't find someone, or there's someone who struggles with infertility, this conversation isn't about you. We're not intending to keep guilt on someone who who biologically can't have track.

SPEAKER_01 20:38

And what we would all add to that, and again, this could be a whole nother episode. What God ordains is always good. Yeah. And one one verse in the ham, what God ordains, is always good. It talks about the the bitterness of the cup, but the the Lord is the one who who allows it. So then you can recognize like this is difficult for me. This is not what I desire. But God is the one who's in control of all these things and then rest rests there. I think to talk now about the Christian couple who looks at the world and says, because of I don't know, environmental concerns, because of overpopulation, supposed overpopulation, because of expenses, because of desire to travel, because of a whole host of other things, we have decided we don't want to have children. We don't want to bring children into the world. How would you have addressed that as their pastor?

SPEAKER_00 21:43

I I think there's some different Bible passages that we could go to that talk about the the blessing of children and God's design for for marriage and family. And so I probably take them back to Genesis chapter one, verse twenty eight, and that's where we really have that institution of marriage after God creates. Humans. So this is the kind of the expanded account versus Genesis 2 is the more zeroed in. But at the end of that, this the days of creation, it says verse 27 first. So God created mankind in his own image. In the image of God, he created the male and female, he created them. God blessed them and said to them, Be fruitful and increase in number, fill the earth and subdue it, rule over the fish in the sea, and the birds in the sky, and over every living creature that moves on the ground. And so this is a command that God has given to humanity. And I think it's it's interesting to note that it is not specifically saying to Adam, he said, which I think you could still apply to all humanity then, but it's it's talking about he created man and woman and says, be fruitful and multiply. This is how God has knit man and woman together. This is why we have these desires. Part of the reason we have these desires for sexual relations is that God has created us as people who are to get married and have children. And this is an ongoing command. Now obviously it's not every single person must therefore have children. We talked about those exceptions, but overall, this is like a general principle of be fruitful and multiply. And so we pit God's command against human thoughts and desires. And so God says be fruitful and multiply, but you're saying, oh, maybe the world's overpopulated or whatever. There's uh environmental concerns. Well, what does the final say? God's word. God's word guides us. And so I'm going to follow God's word and trust God to bless our following of His Word. And so that it's pretty simple in that way that the the Christians going to desire what God commands of us. That would be one place that I would I would point someone. There are other sections I would point someone. Is there anything you want to do? Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 24:08

I would think about the fact that children are simply a blessing from the Lord. And if we recognize that our God is the good giver of all gifts, every good and perfect care b gift comes from the Father of the Heavenly Lights. If we recognize that a God gives us good gifts, then our disposition as his children is to gladly receive the good gifts that he gives. There are psalms that talk about the blessing of children, such as Psalm 127, which says, Children are a heritage from the Lord, offspring a reward from him. Like arrows in the hands of a warrior are children born in one youth one's youth. Blessed is the man whose quiver is full of them. They will not be put to shame when they contend with their opponents in court. So children are a heritage from the Lord. They are a good gift that God gives. And as his children, we want to look at the gifts that God gives and and joyfully receive them.

SPEAKER_00 25:07

Yeah. So so far we're saying this is God's command. I mentioned Genesis 128. You could also look to the command re-given in Genesis 9 to Noah and His Sons, fill fill the fill the earth, have children. We see that children is a blessing, so that's another another dynamic. So command of God, blessing of God. I think maybe a third component is kind of just this, and maybe it's similar to the command, but this just reality of humanity in Genesis chapter 2, verse 24. And so, and we'll read that for you now. That is why a man leaves his father and mother and is united to his wife, and they become one flesh. Right before that, this is now bone in my bones and flesh in my flesh. She shall be called woman, for she was taken out of man. Man and woman were created for this relationship of healthy and interdependence. And so man and woman created for one of one another to be together as one flesh. If you look at that creation account, Adam is very much aware that he's missing something when he doesn't have Eve. And so God has created man and woman for each other. And so this way that we're created, who we are as men and women, is intended to be fulfilled as God gives this blessing of marriage. And then a natural blessing from the way that marriage works will be children. So when uh humans fulfill follow through with that desire for sexual relations, and they live as husband and wife, unless they're doing something artificially to stop that, they're going to have children. And so it's very much involved in the way that we just are knit as humans, our our nature of being one flesh relation with with a spouse is going to lead towards having children. So I think you can kind of talk about maybe three different angles here. That command of God, God told us to do it, that blessing of children, it is a wonderful blessing, and and and this like ontological argument of being, like this is just what it part of being a man and a woman in God's created order.

SPEAKER_01 27:29

I think connecting to some things that you said here, this requires the conversation about birth control.

SPEAKER_02 27:38

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 27:39

So part of the reason that a married couple who is enjoying the gift of companionship that God gives to them could potentially not have children is because of birth control.

SPEAKER_02 27:54

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 27:54

Right? So what what would happen in previous ages is if a married couple who was fertile didn't have children, then it would say, well, they were not coming together. The Apostle Paul gives a warning against that. That you can do so for a time of prayerful, prayerful consideration, but then join again together. So then you you need to ask about birth control and what what do we say uh about it? In the history of conversation about birth control, there was at one time a teaching about the distinction being the the natural versus the mechanical or chemical methods. There has more recently been a transition from that. In the history of all of it, I think it's the Lambeth Conference of the Anglican Church. They were the first church body to accept any form of birth control. I think that was around 1932. Now, when you have a conversation about birth control from a confessional Lutheran perspective, typically the distinction is not natural forms of birth control are okay and chemical, mechanical are not. Usually it's saying we need to have a conversation about motivation and method.

SPEAKER_00 29:22

And and I suppose a major one is is this an abortifation term?

SPEAKER_01 29:27

Yeah, so that would be under the conversation of method. So motivation is you could sinfully approach birth control with natural methods, right? Like you could follow the menstruation cycle of your wife and sinfully disdain children and not have children by following a natural family planning method. So it's not just the method, uh the method, it's also the motivation. What causes you to not want to have children at this moment? There could be good and God-pleasing ways to talk about it. Martin Luther wrote about how, uh and St. Peter wrote this as well, how the woman is the weaker vessel and talks about this physically speaking. And if a man were to approach continuing to force his wife to get pregnant over and over again, and her body just can't take it, then there that could be a an inappropriate approach to this, of saying, I have no care for how you are doing physically in this approach. So the husband would want to approach having children and planning the family in a way that says, I want to love my wife. So motivation is going to be a big thing. We talked already about God's design, we talked about already about God's gifts, and then there's going to be a very normal circumstance where you say, God, give me these gifts. But then if you say, No, I don't want this, that motivation is going to be the issue.

SPEAKER_00 31:10

Yeah, I remember talking about this with my church one time, and we were talking about the blessing of children, and just brought up this point. On one hand, we have children that are speaking spoken of as a blessing, a heritage of the Lord. Children are never spoken of anything but as a blessing from God. On the other hand, often what people are choosing is money, which is described as a root of all kinds of evil. And so when we get into the motivation, often the desire to not have children or to severely limit the number of children someone has, to say we're just gonna have one child or whatever, the motivation often is because of money. It's we want to be able to buy a bigger house, we want to be able to buy nicer cars, we want to go on vacations, we want to have a path to go to Disneyland, and the reason isn't out of love for spouse, like can my wife handle this? It isn't how can we serve God in the best way? It's often we want to enjoy this life, and it's all about being able to have more money. So, what is a bigger blessing for God? Money or children? Well, children's the the greater blessing. That that is biblical, and and so that's one thing that I think is just worth considering when people think of their motivation. We're experts at justifying our own actions and our own thoughts and desires. And so someone might say, Well, I'm gonna choose to have no kids or just a small amount because I want to care for this child the best way of my best of my ability. And this world's just so expensive, so less children's gonna help me care for this child. But then where are you putting your trust? Where are you putting your your confidence? Is it in God who promises to provide and or or is it yourself and and money? And obviously you need to like consider stewardship things in life, you can't just like be foolish. But when God gives us the command to be fruitful and and multiply, and he talks about the blessing of children and and how it's like having arrows and a quiver to to say, well, he he's not gonna provide for us, is actually just a sinful attitude of of doubt.

SPEAKER_02 33:28

Mm-hmm.

SPEAKER_01 33:28

Yeah. And then on the other end, there could be situations where people are then I mean testing God. I think there's the the stereotype of the the person who has no means. And I mean, in this scenario, we'll have other sinful situations, but the single mother who has a bunch of children and is very much dependent on social welfare programs. And then you can have that conversation about the other end of having children and having no plan to care for them on your own. So this is why we typically avoid the conversation of how many children that you must have, because there isn't a biblical mandate on how many children a married cut couple must have, but instead we want to have that heart that approaches it and says, these are children are always blessings from the Lord. We are thankful for this. God gives children within the bounds of marriage, and we will gladly receive this gift that God gives to us. And when if whenever we're approaching the idea of family planning, then to say, I want to approach this in a way that's going to glorify God without falling into some of the false reasonings that might be presented in society today.

SPEAKER_00 34:58

Yeah. One of the things I do want to just encourage people is I think a large family is a wonderful testimony. Like I just think of I I've been getting a lot of random churches or pastors being put into my uh Facebook algorithm, like not even people I follow, just like random things. And whenever I see like a pastor's family that has a lot of children, that that's always an encouragement to me because being a pastor's family, they're not making a lot of money. So then they're they're making sacrifices to to go forward with that blessing of children. And and you just think of the blessing to a congregation it is when there's a lot of children, and then when these children grow up and and are trained up in the Lord, then they go and have children, and and their children have children, and you get to see just like a wonderful group of community, group of believers who came from from that couple, and and how tremendous a blessing that is for different congregations and for um their neighbors when there's more Christians in this world, and and it's because that family said, maybe we don't need to go on as many vacations, maybe we don't need to have as much money in our retirement account, but we think having children is important, and we want to receive, thankfully, receive this blessing from God. And so, like there's no thus saith the Lord, thou shalt have ten children. And and I don't even know if that's I I I've even seen that many, but when I see a family and they've got five, six, seven kids, it's a tremendous encouragement to say, well, there are people who are valuing the things of God, and and and we we can do that too.

SPEAKER_01 36:46

Yeah, and there there can be a false premise out there that in order to have a child, you need to have them signed up for all of these different things.

SPEAKER_00 36:56

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 36:56

And there there could be room for conversation about actually pushing back on that.

SPEAKER_02 37:02

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 37:02

That limiting the amount of things that the your child is forced to do could be very good for them to add gaps into their schedule. Yeah, kids need time to be bored. Yeah, kid they need time for creative thinking, they need time for meditative reflection. But if the thought is like, no, I need to have them in in this instrument, in this sport, and this thing, and this is going year-round, it might be better to actually say, you know, it would be both cheaper and good for them to have less of those things that are taking up their time, to have more time for us at home. Okay, you're you you have more children, so you cannot afford the travel baseball team for your child. But now that means your ch your child is at church every single Sunday. It's a wonderful blessing to them. They it gives them the the freedom to be at home and to explore various different interests. Not to say that baseball is not a good interest to have, but you to recognize that if your child cannot be in every extra curricular because you can't afford it, that's not a bad thing.

SPEAKER_00 38:24

Yeah. I also have to say I I know of a family that does the travel sports, and and they've kind of been kind of given me this thought, and I thought it was very helpful, is that you can do both church and the travel sport. And like you said, maybe you can't do everything, but one of the thoughts that kind of gets out there is like that the travel sport gets to call the shots, and you just get to do you have to do everything they say the way that they say it. And this family was saying, no, you can kind of test the market and see what's out there. There are a lot of Christians involved with these things, and and you maybe the the group that says no, you have to be here for every Sunday, like then just find a different team. So like I thought that was that was a good perspective of like, no, you can advocate for yourself in this. There are Christians involved in these things. I mean, if you think like just professional sports, there's a lot of Christians involved in these things. So that was one thing. But then yeah, maybe it's you can't be involved in all the different activities, and that's that's okay. You're uh actually maybe because you're not going to all these activ different activities, your t your family has more time to do stuff together. And this is like a uniquely, I don't know, within the last 20 years issue. People used to just do everything as a family all the time. And now we send them off to school all day. Maybe they're in childcare after that, and then they've got their different sports, and then different activities, different clubs, and the family's not spending time together, and then the parents are running themselves so tired because they have to drive them from here to here to here to here, and they're just so busy. And the reality is like this is a problem you created for yourself. And so one of the things is like, will your child be a well-rounded individual without this activity or club? They very much can be. Will your child be able to learn leadership skills and teamwork without that extra club? Yes, they can. And one thing I think is worth asking is like, what's the odds that a kid's gonna go professional in sports? Like, is this the end goal? Well you're most likely they're not. I mean, most likely they're not, and there's a really, really good chance they're not gonna earn a scholarship either. And so maybe having some perspective on this is helpful as well.

SPEAKER_01 40:58

Yeah. And then when you think about children and if cost is the major concern as you approach raising your children, there are many very good and beneficial things that you can do within a church that are a very minimal cost that will benefit your children, right? So you imagine your church has a choir, and often churches will allow that maybe preteens to join the choir. There is something that they can through intergenerational relationships uh learn as a skill. Or you can think about volunteering at the church. You can learn good things there as well, whether it's cleaning or it's as your child gets a little bit older, volunteering to help out with Sunday school and things like that. Good things that you your child can learn, and these things are going to be free, then you can add other aspects to it of just facets of that church community, which can be a tremendous blessing to your child, which are not a huge cost. And then if this is something that's a concern as well, I I think something we can hold out to older Christians is to say, are there skills that you can help pass down to the children of your congregation that can help their parent the parents from feeling like this is a huge financial burden? Like maybe you know how to garden and now you're the child from your church does not need to be sign up for gardening club because you're just going to help them. Like maybe you know how to do something and you can help pass this on to the next generation. So this doesn't need to become a another paid activity for the kid in your congregation.

SPEAKER_00 42:59

So we've talked about kind of motivation. I think the big motivation that comes up is that desire to enjoy this life and and not have the cost. I think we we've addressed that pretty sufficiently. Um, just that encouragement to to trust God. When we do things according to his will, we we trust in him. Not that we're foolish in the way that we spend and all of that. And and understanding this might require sacrifice. Uh, maybe you don't get to go to the Brazilian steakhouse for dinner all the time, or uh maybe you need to pack sandwiches for your road trip and you're not flying and stopping at restaurants at the airport or whatever. So, like there are gonna be some conscious decisions that you make, but also think of the rich blessing of of children and and how I mean, we've talked about this. How taking our children to the beach is actually maybe more fun than going to Disneyland because There's just like that freedom for them to be creative versus like standing in line for a ride. And how much our children who are little love doing something like the beach. And the beach can be free. Sorry to people who don't live by the beach, but the beach can be free. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 44:21

Or the hiking trail.

SPEAKER_00 44:23

Or the hiking trail. My kids love that. And so there are also sorts of really fun things that you can do for free and create these great memories. And so you might feel like you're sacrificing. I don't get to take my kids on all these different trips, but that doesn't mean that they're having a less fulfilling life. Actually, they might even be having a a better experience because maybe they're not going on the cruise ship, but the cruise ship was the reason that the person chose the cruise ship is because the cruise ship has child care and they they get to go and enjoy their drinks and the kids go off to some child care. They want to be with you anyways. And and so that the motivation, I think, is one thing that we want to consider, but maybe we want to also talk about the method before you have to get to something else.

SPEAKER_01 45:09

I think when when we talk about the method for birth control, that is something that's really important for us to consider. You might use the term abortifacient. I I think we need to be careful with terms because terms are be are redefined. Yeah. So what is conception? Not everyone agrees what conception is. For conservative Christianity, we're going to generally define conception as fertilization.

SPEAKER_00 45:43

Yeah. So it's been redefined by money to be implantation.

SPEAKER_01 45:47

Implantation, yeah. So we're gonna say as a general rule, birth control that does not allow fertilization would be much, much better than birth control that does not allow implantation. Because Psalm 51, 5 says, Surely I was sinful at birth, sinful from the time my mother conceived me. And w we we just we wouldn't think like, okay, sin doesn't happen until the fertilized egg is implanted. But instead it would seem that life begins with fertilization. Now I know there's gonna be people who are gonna have their pushback and say, like, there's there's fertilized eggs that don't last all the time.

SPEAKER_00 46:37

How do I say it? A high percentage.

SPEAKER_01 46:39

Yeah, at a at a fairly high percentage. And that's where we're just gonna say, well, we're gonna put this into God's hand. Yeah. When it comes to our decision making, we would rather s m err much further on the side of caution to say birth control that stops fertilization is going to be the far superior choice from the Christian perspective than something that would stop implantation. So then you would you as a Christian would want to approach birth control methods and say something that would end the life, now I'm using the term that we would all use of the conceived child, no matter how small, we would say that causes a lot of uncertainty. That's that we we recognize that murder is a big deal. Yeah. We put it in the hands of a good and loving God, but this is a child who has not yet heard the gospel or been baptized. So we we want to err on the side of caution and not make forms that are going to create all of that uncertainty in your mind. Like, what just happened? What did you just do? And even if that's not the first level of defense, yeah, that is something that a Christian needs to consider. Not every form of birth control has the first level of defense of stopping implantation, but sometimes that is a secondary. And I think an IUD would be an example of that. Yeah, and that that's where something you would say, read up on it, learn up about it. My my wife, we we had our fifth child, and the doctor was talking to her about birth control methods, and my my wife said to her, Well, how I want to approach this is I want to learn from you about options that uh stop fertilization, not implantation. And the doctor's response is like, well, that really limits your opera options there. So I'm not an expert on this, but my encouragement would be Christians, you really want to learn about what you're using.

SPEAKER_00 49:02

Yeah, that would be my encouragement too, is do your research. And this is what I will tell couples, do your research on this. There are certain things that would be like obviously the Christian's not on is not comfortable, like what's called the plan B pill. Yeah, obviously, we're not comfortable with that. Obviously, using abortion as birth control is not something a Christian can be okay with. Obviously, we want to be very con concerned about if an ab if it's abortif if it's an abortifacient at uh at all. And so telling Christian to do their research and and and consider how can I do this in a God-pleasing way if this is gonna be my my decision. I And so I don't know how much we want to get into the weeds with that. I mean, this is maybe more of like at this point you talk with your pastor. Like, is this something that we we are comforta we should be comfortable with at all? We could also get like we also don't want to get too graphic about like the different different methods or whatever, but uh to talk to your spouse, to talk to your pastor, to pray and ask for God's blessings as you consider how can I do this in a way that is God pleasing? But the answer is not anything's fair game. I mean, I mean, so like we're even talking about whether like whether it's legitimate to do family planning in that way, then to take that another step, like is this even an okay method of doing it? And so like first I have that question, like, how can we serve God by having children and and in our relationship? And then the next step is okay, what's the what's the best way that we could do this if this is our choice? And one of the things that I I think often happens is like people think, well, we need to be well, we already kind of got into this, but we need to be ready and stable to have children, but okay, well, we we also have God's command and we trust in God. So addressing the first the desire to have children question, and then the family planning comes after that, I think, and then it's like, well, how can we do this in the best way without ending life?

SPEAKER_01 51:12

Yeah. And I think then to wrap up this conversation, if you have that young couple who comes to their pastor, or somehow the information comes to the pastor that they're just they're not planning on having children. I mean, let's be realistic. More often than not, that couple who's made that decision is not talking to pastor about it.

SPEAKER_00 51:30

Probably isn't going to church often either.

SPEAKER_01 51:33

Uh, but it's they they come to that that's decision. What's the best way to address it? Well, I mean, we we go to God with go to people with God's law, but I think the best way to address it is long before that decision's ever made. And it's how do we talk about children? Children are a blessing from God. How do we talk about our families? Uh, extol this as a gift, show other people like this is a good thing, and I'm so thankful. I I've said this before, and people from my congregation know my family. I don't know to what extent I should say their names on a podcast. But God has given me five wonderful children. Is it ever hard? Yeah, it's hard. Is it ever challenging? Yes, it's challenging, but it is a wonderful blessing. And often things that are worth doing, like raising a family, aren't always gonna be easy. Yeah. So some of the greatest feats in your life, some of the greatest blessings in your life uh require hard work.

SPEAKER_00 52:39

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 52:40

And I that's how I would talk about having children with people, is to say, like, just as it's not easy to climb a mountain, but it's fulfilling and fun and invigorating. It's not easy to raise a family, but it's fulfilling, and it is fun, and it's a wonderful uh way of life.

SPEAKER_00 53:00

And I think the results will show themselves later often when you put in that hard work. So think about it like you play football, you put in the work in the ho off season and in practice, and you see the results when when you get to win those games. Maybe it's not that fun in September when you're running these sprints and doing the hard work, having long days, two-a-days. I don't know if those are legal anymore, but having long days of football practice, maybe it's not that fun right then, but then the rewards come later. Let's say you don't put in the hard work. Well, you don't put in the hard work, and then you're gonna feel the pain of that later. And so things in life, like you said, that are worth doing aren't always easy. And we need to push back that natural laziness that doesn't want to put in hard work. Put in the hard work, there's a lot of blessings on the way. And and this isn't even biblical, but this is a a Jordan Peterson quote. He talks about like you only have little kids for three to four years, and that's such a special time in life, and it it really is. And you the joy that little children bring to your life, yes, they can be complicated sometimes, but no one in my life loves me the way that my three-year-old son loves me, and my five-year-old daughter, and and now my one-year-old daughter is becoming a little more like aware, I guess. No one no one loves me in this life the way that they do. And and the the simple joy that we have each and every day is such a wonderful gift from God. And so, one of the points I've really been highlighting in on my teaching and preaching these days is that God does not just arbitrarily give us laws to tell us what to do. His laws are his law is his eternal will for our lives, and it's for our good. And so when we live according to God's design for our lives, it's gonna be a blessing. It's good, it's good to have children. And so let's hold that up and and teach that to the next generation so they know it is a wonderful privilege to be able to have children, and and this will be enriching and fulfilling to your life.

SPEAKER_01 55:04

So, yeah, I think extolling the blessings that when when God gives you children, he's giving you a good thing because we have a father in heaven who loves us so so deeply. I mean, he loves us so much that he'd send his son to die for us and give us the confidence of eternal life. Children give you a blessing in this life, but then also you can be the instrument that God gives them his wonderful word to so that they can have that confidence for eternity as well. So then, children, unlike a vacation that ends after the week, these are blessings that can go on for eternity. Because you will they will be with you surrounding the the throne in heaven, singing God's praises. So what a blessing to have children. Thanks for joining us for today's podcast episode.