Episode 02: Leadership AND…Management & Followership

Why Most People Confuse Them

What’s the difference between leadership and management?

And why does that distinction matter so much at work, at home, and in the way we lead ourselves?

In Episode 2 of the Leadership, And… Podcast, Josh Donovan and Patrick Ibarra unpack one of the most foundational ideas behind the Lighthouse Institute approach to leadership:

you lead people, and you manage systems and processes.

From construction companies building massive AI data centers to conversations with spouses, kids, and coworkers, this episode explores what it actually looks like to create psychologically safe environments, empower feedback, and lead with emotional intelligence.

Josh and Patrick also dive into the dangers of perfectionism, why organizations often unintentionally silence honest communication, and how tools like Plus/Delta can radically transform relationships when used with humility and consistency.

This conversation is practical, deeply human, and full of tangible leadership wisdom that applies far beyond the workplace.

Because leadership isn’t just about titles.

It’s about how we show up everywhere we go.

In This Episode:

• The difference between leadership, management, and followership
• Why “you lead people and manage systems” changes everything
• How psychological safety impacts communication
• Why people stop speaking up
• The role emotional intelligence plays in leadership
• Why many organizations over-manage and under-lead
• How Plus/Delta creates healthier feedback loops
• Parenting, blind spots, and creating environments where people feel heard

Timestamps:

00:00 — Why Lighthouse gives ideas away for free

04:00 — The purpose behind the podcast

06:00 — Lighthouse clients and the construction industry

10:00 — AI, data centers, and interpersonal leadership

15:00 — Lighthouse offerings: Leadership Series, Lift, Coaching, and Team Facilitation

20:00 — Why Lighthouse wants people talking about leadership

26:00 — Leadership vs. management explained

30:00 — “You lead people and manage systems”

33:00 — Followership and speaking truth to power

35:00 — Parenting, psychological safety, and communication

42:00 — Hard on process, soft on people

48:00 — The Plus/Delta feedback tool

56:00 — Leadership roles at work, at home, and within yourself

1:03:00 — Bedtime journaling, emotional awareness, and growth

1:08:00 — Why the “compliment sandwich” often backfires

1:13:00 — Psychological safety and honest conversations

1:18:00 — Blind spots, humility, and feedback

About Lighthouse Institute

Lighthouse Institute exists to shine light that ignites connection, inspires hope, and transforms generations.

Through leadership development, coaching, facilitation, and organizational training, Lighthouse helps individuals and teams grow in emotional intelligence, ownership, communication, self-awareness, and leadership effectiveness.

The Leadership, And… podcast explores leadership through real conversations about work, relationships, parenting, conflict, growth, and the human side of leading well.

Follow along for future conversations about leadership, parenting, relationships, conflict, growth, and the human side of leadership.

Transcript

SPEAKER_01 0:01

Most importantly, leadership is relational and it's human. And then we'll hear yeah, but, right? Because we're kind of obsessed with that word but. Right? I hear you, but. I love you, but I'm sorry, but thank you, but you're doing good, but just deletes everything that was previously said.

SPEAKER_00 0:28

So we really need the word and. I hear you and I love you and I'm sorry and thank you and you're doing good and I'm Josh Donovan with Lighthouse Institute.

SPEAKER_01 0:42

And I am Patrick Ibarra with Lighthouse Media. And we're excited to dive into leadership through real conversations. It's all on the table.

SPEAKER_00 0:52

Work, parenting, marriage, conflict, friendship, personal growth. Because wherever you go, there you are. Leading yourself and leading others. So really, this is leadership and everything else. Hey everybody, welcome back to leadership and this will be episode two. And we recorded this episode in late February. So when you hear me say things like tomorrow or next week or next month, uh, we're still getting our groove here. Just know that this was recorded at an earlier date, and those terms are not real. That's not actually going to be coming up in those days. Uh as part of the intro into this episode, we're still introducing people to Lighthouse, um, giving people an understanding of kind of our scope of work and clients that we work with. As I was running through the list of clients, uh, I realized I said webcore construction. I think they actually go by webcore builders. You look on their website, it just says webcore. Uh Dome construction, I left off that list, and we love Dome. We're getting ready to start Leadership Series 16 with them. They have been an amazing partner. Um, we're really big fans of their organization. And uh Steve Long, their director of innovation and learning, he's been a thought partner for some of the curriculum development that we've done on our end as well. A couple others that uh missed when we were going through that list. As a result of our relationship with Meta and the data center builds that they're doing, uh, we got to work with Mortensen. Mortensen's a large general contractor, and they are out in that Eagle Mountain site in Utah. And we did a leadership series out there. We've also been uh had the opportunity to come back and do some of our team uh product, which you'll hear about in this episode in just a little bit. And then McLarney construction. I am a big fan of McLarney. I love the team over at McLarney. Uh they're in San Jose. Uh, they're getting ready to uh gear up for their fourth leadership series group. Uh they've also done some executive team coaching and uh most uh very recently uh did a stress workshop with Mr. Chris Vela uh because he has he has a new book coming out that you all will be be hearing more about. Um the other thing I wanted to mention in this intro as we get into to episode two is the the myth of multitasking. Uh talk a lot about like multitasking is not a real thing. And for some reason, I tried to do it while we were recording episode two. So you're gonna see a segment where um Patrick's talking and he's trying to ask me a question and I'm looking at my phone. And some of you are gonna be like, Josh, what are you doing? We don't do that. You're a hundred percent right, and I own that. Um so I I fumble in that area and I like am trying to pick up your thoughts. And I asked you about editing it out, and then I said, No, don't do it, because it's actually proof of the larger point, which is you can't multitask. I couldn't read the note on my phone and listen to Patrick at the same time. And you'll actually hear me at the end of the episode talk about having fumbled that, right? Um, so in those first couple that we recorded, I was using my phone to hold notes of things that we you know may or may not want to talk about as we were going through the episode. And I'll just say lesson learned. Uh so the recordings that we're doing now, I'm I'm not bringing my phone in and going back to the old school pen and paper. So um, again, continuing to practice what we preach in the progress over perfection, standardizing the practice of showing up. Uh, this episode two is going to be another conversation with just Patrick and myself. And then as we move into episode three and beyond, um you'll have a you'll see interviews of us bringing other people, other team members into the room and having uh deeper and more robust conversations. Anything that you want to add as we're getting ready to on-ramp into the second one?

SPEAKER_01 5:00

Yeah, no, I really enjoyed this episode. Um, because yeah, again, like you said, it's the probably the last episode so far that it's just the two of us just you know going deep into it. And um, but yeah, and then moving forward, super excited to bring next the the guests that are coming up that are just incredible content, guys. So um yeah, enjoy this one. It's gonna be a fantastic, fantastic. I mean, I learned so much just in this episode two, and so yeah, check it out.

SPEAKER_00 5:26

It's fun. Yeah, well, the primary topic that we'll be talking about today are uh roles. We we frame it as like organizational roles, this idea of lead, manage, follow, and understanding that we play all three of those roles. Uh so we hope you enjoy it. Episode two, leadership and all right. So I don't know if you've experienced this at all, but with the podcast idea, it's interesting. People kind of challenging or questioning like us putting content out there for free versus call it like intellectual property or business secrets or things like that. They're like, so are you just gonna put all of Lighthouse's material out there for people? And it feels like it comes with a little bit of like a scarcity mindset. I don't know. Have you experienced that at all?

SPEAKER_01 6:09

Or absolutely, yeah. And I think it it's just with anything that you start working towards, people always wonder the the money value of the things that we're doing. And so I think we're just used to that, right? Like they just give you something and you're expecting to pay something immediately for that, or like they're not gonna give me anything unless I pay. So uh I think it's just our culture.

SPEAKER_00 6:31

Yeah, it's super interesting because even when we had the previous podcast, All Things Atascadero, I mean, we were really just kind of using it as a community platform. It wasn't something that we thought about, you know, monetizing or charging for or anything like that. So it's it's really interesting now, kind of coming at it from a true like business angle. Like Lighthouse Institute wants to put together a podcast and we're gonna push it out through the Lighthouse media lens. But even just talking about that, I I had some people be like, Well, you know, aren't you worried about putting your material out there? And it it it felt almost disorienting for me because I'm like, no, kind of the opposite. I think more about abundance mindset, which we say is the opposite of scarcity, right? So abundance is there's enough to go around, like we want to create value for people. I mean, the most important thing is I would love more people to be talking about the ideas behind Lighthouse Institute and the Lighthouse model of leadership. So we're wanting to provide that info and get people talking about it. And I think that is not how most people approach things. So it it's rattling people a little bit. Totally. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 7:38

I I wonder if maybe you know, declaring that intent towards our audience of like, what are we trying to do with this? Like, we're not trying to just get you to buy the next thing or to, you know, like get you to sign up for this thing because this is not this is not where the money comes from. Like, this isn't we're not looking into making money out of this in any way. I mean, it may happen, may not happen, but this is not that's not the intention.

SPEAKER_00 8:03

So yeah, yeah. And so there's like different ways that people are probably going to find this or encounter, you know, this work or listen to our podcast, right? So, first and foremost, you've got this group of what we call lighthouse leaders, people who have gone through our leadership series experience. It's really, again, our flagship product, that the 65 hours of training where they spend a lot of time with us, and then they are looking for maybe more lighthouse stuff or ways to continue implementing the principles. And those people tell us all the time are there are there more ways for us to consume more lighthouse? This is in response to that, which I think is is super exciting. Uh, there's also, again, like people who have known that you and I have done podcasting before. And so even putting like a little teaser photo on my Instagram and people kind of hitting us, I'm like, what are you doing? What are you recording? Like, is it more things about a Tascadero? Uh no, sorry.

SPEAKER_01 9:00

Uh but no, totally. I I I think that um, yeah, no, I think you hit the head in the nail. Like, it's just this is totally different, um, different purpose for this podcast. It's not, you know, what we used to do in the past. And um, and yeah, just like you said, like our our participants, they're wanting more info, they just want extra after all that long training that they've done. And so this is just our answer to hey, do you need some more? Do we got more? Because honestly, at first, 65 hours can seem daunting to somebody, but once you go through the course, it is a lot of material, it is a lot of content, but you still leave the room with like, I need more. It's just kind of like an eye-opener of like, man, I'm so short on so many things in so many areas that you just want more. And I think that's what some people are saying in their rooms, right? Like, man, I just wish I had you in the back pocket because they can already see that there's gonna be situations where man, like, even this 65 hours that that's not enough to prepare me for life or other things that are gonna happen. So maybe here there'll be some some good nuggets that they can get through that.

SPEAKER_00 10:00

So, yeah, I like that. So, you know, we say, okay, we want to put this together and put some things out there because we want to provide value to people. What does that mean? Like, what are we really trying to? You said the intentions of the podcast, right? I think for me, I bring that back to just what's the core purpose of Lighthouse Institute. So, again, to shine light that ignites connection, inspires hope, and transforms generations. From my perspective, this podcast is just another opportunity to shine light, right? We don't know exactly where where that light's shining or who's coming and picking that information up, but our hope is that you'll be able to pick some things up as a result of listening to this that will help you ignite connection, inspire some hope, and transform generations, right? Leadership's not a title, a position, a thing. It's a set of skills that anyone can learn, develop, grow into, and we're leading all day long everywhere we go. If nothing else, you're leading yourself as you function and operate within the world. And then a lot of us are leading people in our homes, whether that's parenting or in a relationship or we're coaching little league teams and cheerleading and you know, Cub Scouts, Girl Scouts, and art and dance and everywhere in between. It's like it's leadership.

SPEAKER_01 11:14

So that that actually you kind of almost took the words out of my mouth because I was just about to ask you. I'm like, so who do you think our audience is? Is it just like leaders of the world? Is it just leaders in a company? Um, or do you think you know there's leadership in any other areas of our of our life, right?

SPEAKER_00 11:28

Yeah, I mean, I think there's opportunity for all of that and everyone and in between. Yeah. Um, but again, I think like lighthouse clients are probably people who are most hungry for some of this content. And so, like, who are we talking about when we when we say lighthouse clients? I think we mentioned last time, right? Tim started Lighthouse in the Pacific Northwest, Absher construction, and then made a nice reputation for himself within the construction industry, but we didn't necessarily speak to, well, who is that and and and who are we working with, right? Uh it's exciting. I think about like GLY construction up in Washington, who uh Chris Fela is getting ready to start a leadership series with them in about a month, and it is leadership series number 26.

SPEAKER_01 12:13

Wow. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 12:14

So 26 different cohorts of, you know, four, usually 14 to 16 people at that organization have gone through, and he's gonna be starting leadership series 26 up there.

SPEAKER_01 12:24

Wow.

SPEAKER_00 12:25

They're our longest standing, you know, most loyal client, which uh super awesome. It's a lot of fun. They've also been working with Tim for the last, you know, decade plus, and so now it's a transition to having Chris come in there and take that torch and run, which is gonna be really exciting. 26. 26, yeah. That's a lot. And then, you know, the the other side of that is Jared Davis is going to Cordy Construction in Washington tomorrow. And that's gonna, and it's their first leadership series at that company. And he's actually doing two back to back. So there will be two groups of 14 going through this 65-hour journey over the next you know, like four months. So you get someone, you know, someone like G O Y, who's been here a really long time with Cordy, who is just getting started, right? And that's just Washington. So you think about the Bay Area. The Bay we spend a ton of time in the Bay Area, you know, Webcore Construction. I think we just did Leadership Series 18 with them. They've been a long-standing partner. We're we're deep in that organization. Anvil builders just started leadership series 11. So there's 11 different cohorts that have gone through there. You've got Cahill, they're on group 7. You've got Ovra, they just did group 11, something like that. So these are these are our long-standing clients that we've been in partnership for a long time, right? And then also companies like BBI Construction, who's starting a little later this year with their first group. Uh, GPLA structural engineers, they are they actually got purchased by DPR, who's a really large national um general contractor. We work with them. We just started their first leadership series this year. So it we are pretty well entrenched in construction, but diverse within that industry as far as the amount of organizations that we're working with.

SPEAKER_01 14:12

Correct, yeah, because you're working with electrical companies and structural engineers and all of that. So now, since we're on that topic, maybe I might go a little bit off script here, but we're in the construction world pretty heavily. Are there any visions in the horizon of expanding outside of the construction world? Or I mean, how how does what let's say there's somebody, you know, listening right now, a different company that are like, man, we're not in the construction industry, but we'd love to get some leadership in our company. Like we we need this, we see the need.

SPEAKER_00 14:41

Yeah, again, from our perspective, leadership isn't specific to any industry, right? Or, you know, construction or a position or a title or anything like that. It's we we say wherever you go, there you are, right? Leadership comes with you personally, professionally, everywhere in between. We would love to diversify, you know, our portfolio and get some clients that are outside of the construction industry. And we just have such a strong foothold in the construction industry that sometimes it doesn't end up making a ton of sense for us to, you know, go pursue those those other industries and avenues. So um the the material we teach is not unique to construction. We have curated it and we have um put it together in a way that really makes it fit within construction. But yeah, there's absolutely an opportunity to take the lighthouse model well beyond you know that specific industry.

SPEAKER_01 15:35

Love that.

SPEAKER_00 15:36

Yeah. And I misspoke. Uh, Over is Leadership Series 14 that we just did with that. So nice. Very nice. And then most recently, I think this this is an interesting component. Um, you know, in the last two and a half years, we ended up in a really deep partnership with Rosenden Electric. They're the largest employee-owned electrical contractor in the country. Uh, and they have just been experiencing rapid growth. So in two and a half years, we have actually, by the end of this year, we will have completed 22 leadership series in an extremely short period of time. And they're continuing to uh advocate for and roll out Lighthouse to their whole organization, like wanting Lighthouse principles being the way that they lead, right? And they are kind of on the cutting, cutting edge, the front edge, the front line of kind of data data center builds that are happening all over the world, really, but uh the country specifically. Uh we are also Meta is a client of ours, so you know, Facebook, Instagram, Meta, that company, and they are building data centers all over. And that's really what's kind of pushing and driving the construction industry right now, are the the data center builds for, you know, as as AI continues to do its thing and grow and develop, it needs data houses and warehouses and stuff where all of that can can function from. And so those are those are the people we're working with. Where, you know, a lot of our clients are on out there doing those builds. And so through Meta, we've also gotten introduced to like Hensel Phelps and DPR and Fortis, the large GCs who are building those projects for them.

SPEAKER_01 17:21

Man, dude, you're dropping names like crazy.

SPEAKER_00 17:25

It is some name dropping, but I want I'm trying to help people get a sense for the scope of like what we do and who we're working with, right? Um, so like what are a lot of the common problems that you know these these clients slash people are having? You know, a lot of it is what they call uh cross-functional collaboration and integration, right? Of it's playing nice in the sound sandbox. It's I have this priority, I need this data center built this quickly, get it done. And they're like, Well, this, I don't know if you've ever built a building before, you know, this is what it's gonna look like. Here's our challenges. And there's some people that joke it's it's a lot like the race to the moon, where like people are really trying to be first in the AI space. And in order to be first in the AI space, you've got to have the data center built in order to be able to make that function. So it's highly competitive right now. Uh, they want faster, cheaper, you know, all those things. Um, and so for us, it's those interpersonal skills that's coming in and saying, like, well, how do you navigate uh opposing priorities? What are you gonna do when challenges come up? How are you gonna have these hard conversations? And at the end of the day, what we realize is they're all just people. Everyone sleeps at night, everyone gets up and has to eat breakfast, everyone has to put their pants on one leg at a time, and and everyone's human. And as much as as much as the conversation is around artificial intelligence and all the things that we're building, it's people who are getting the work done. And so it so much of our work just comes back to how are we going to interact human to human, what's conversation gonna look like, what are our tools, what are our tactics? And it's pretty basic at the end of the day.

SPEAKER_01 19:13

Yeah, and I mean, and I love it. And I mentioned the names just only because these companies have obviously done something to get to where they are, right? And the fact that they can see Lighthouse as a such an important component of the success that they're seeking, like you said, you know, they need to build these data centers, and you mentioned you know, like the space race, right? Like if we use that analogy, they're trying to build a rocket ship as fast and as efficient as possible. And so, what's the key to you know, making a team efficient, you know, and it's communication, and it's all all of the different lighthouse model um terms that we use, right? Like that's what makes everybody, you know, working together. And so I think the fact that these these companies are seeing Lighthouse as that tool that speaks volumes. I mean, that's not something that you can just go and purchase at a store. You can just buy, you know, maybe you can buy some books that kind of get you there, but you can't, you know, the the service we're providing is not just something that you can just come across as easily. And so I don't know, I'm just super proud of like the work that you've done, the whole team has done over the years. I mean, starting with Tim, with you, with Chris, with everybody. Like, it's so encouraging to see how these companies are seeing us as like, man, I mean, how many teams are they putting through our our our process, you know, our leadership series? And so to me, that's just huge. I'm like, man, like they just want more and more and more. And then we're here now, you know, recording a podcast because they still want more after those hours. So I'm just super encouraged. So thanks, man.

SPEAKER_00 20:36

Yeah, I love that. I think, and again, it just starts to help bring some understanding to Lighthouse Institute, uh, you know, in the local community, we're still gonna be kind of doing some of that brand identity, brand recognition. What is this company, Lighthouse, right? And we don't really have a lot of work locally. I think we mentioned last time specialty construction in San Luis Obispo, our first local client uh last year in the 805, and um was just talking with them this last week, and they're gonna be coming on board for a second leadership series group in 2026. They're also gonna be leveraging our Lyft program, which is uh leaders in field training. It's a small abbreviated version. I don't even like to say it's an abbreviated version of the leadership series because it's really not, it's more of like an introductory to leadership track specifically designed for field leaders. So, you know, Jared Davis comes onto our team with over 10 years of experience working for Webcore, a large general contractor Bay Area, and he's passionate about uh, you know, people who work in the field. And so developing this four series track, or I'm sorry, four session track, right? So just you meet four times over the course of a month, and it's really designed for those leaders in the field, and specialty is going to be taking advantage of that, which is which is really cool. And we've gotten to deploy at other places Anvil, Cahill, Ovra, uh, they've they've leaned in and and gone. Through that product, and we've gotten really good results with it.

SPEAKER_01 22:02

That's so exciting. Yeah, I keep hearing, you know, lift, and I'm like, man, I want to just sit in one of those classes, one of those series, too, you know, just to absorb more of that content, you know. And and speaking of Jared, like, man, he's so passionate, and the being in the room with him has got to be like just so cool. Um, like you said, you know, so knowledgeable, and just he's got a great personality too. But um, no, that's fantastic.

SPEAKER_00 22:24

Well, because I think a lot of organizations think about our leadership series product as an experience for call it more executive or senior leaders within the organization. And so having Lyft as an option for I mean, I'll be honest, a lot of organizations kind of sometimes forget about the field and forget about how important the training and development is in that area as well. And they can kind of just over-index on office personnel or people that are, you know, more visible on day-to-day. And so what we hear often in Lyft is just like, oh my gosh, thanks for seeing me. Thanks for inviting me to the table, that they had this opportunity to come and do this training and get some language. Uh, and they're usually really, really appreciative. So I'm excited to see that happen locally at specialty and and with the other clients that that are in the mix.

SPEAKER_01 23:12

Yeah, that's fantastic. I mean, so we have then leadership series, we have Lyft, what other series that we have?

SPEAKER_00 23:19

Oh, as far as offerings go, I mean, yeah, the other thing that we are often we're customizing what we call a team approach. So the leadership series in large organizations, it's not uncommon for people to come into the room and not be familiar with each other. They're they're from different sections of the organization. This person might work over, you know, here in finance, and this person's over here in marketing, and they've never like they've never actually communicated. And so you you're at some of these large companies, you walk in and you're like, Oh, I'm Josh, like, oh, Patrick. That's kind of wild. Um, and then other times uh clients will reach out and it's what we refer internally, we call it a homogeneous group. So a group that is actually working together on a daily, consistent basis. And that's usually project teams in the construction world. So, hey, this project team is uh if we can get it on the front end, like they're getting ready to start and they're kicking off, and we really want to, you know, set behavioral norms and expectations on the front end. Oh man, that's a win. That is that is awesome. We typically don't get that super often. What we get is hey, this project team's been rolling for a little bit, things are a little sideways, we didn't have super clear expectations, we're having some challenges, having some hard conversations. You know, could you come in and help us just kind of course correct? And when that's the situation, which is fairly common, we'll customize the curriculum track. So we'll sit down and say, well, what are you experiencing? What's going on? In a perfect world, they'll let us have maybe six to eight discovery session phone calls with key people on the team. What are you experiencing? What's working, what's not? Hey, if we're gonna come together for some team building level setting, what would be the outcome that you'd like to see happen? What sorts of things do we need to talk about? Uh, and then we we customize that approach depending on how many sessions they might need, and we and we partner with them to walk that journey. And we call that team.

SPEAKER_02 25:14

Mm-hmm.

SPEAKER_00 25:15

Love that.

SPEAKER_01 25:16

Wow. Man, there's so much, so much there.

SPEAKER_00 25:19

Yeah, there's a lot there. I mean, we and of course, then we have all our one-off stuff where we do we do one-on-one executive coaching, we'll take teams to off-site retreats. Um, again, it can depend. Is that an executive team just wanting to do an annual like strategic planning, or is there maybe a team that is more sideways and needs to really get out and away and spend some dedicated time together? We'll go as far as helping people navigate what we call mediation scenarios. Sometimes people can be really locked up in conflict, and oftentimes the organization will say, they're too valuable. They're both really valuable, can't lose either one of them, but we need them to figure it out. And then we'll come in and partner with, you know, getting to that outcome. That usually takes a lot of uh massaging, a lot of conversation. Uh, you know, I'll meet with this person, person A for a good period of time, person B, and hey, how soon are you willing to kind of go into the room for a conversation? And um, those ones can get sticky. But yeah, we I mean, as far as services or offerings go, there's a there's a lot of different ways that we can engage with people and clients.

SPEAKER_01 26:26

Perfect. Now, since we're on that topic, if somebody was out there listening and they're like, Man, I I need to, you know, I want to know more about this. I want to see if this is a good fit for our company, where can they find us?

SPEAKER_00 26:38

Well, my assumption would be if they found this podcast, they probably know how to find us. But that might not be true either. So um, our website will soon be a very reliable place to go for current information. We're in the process of overhauling that, and that's just lighthouseinstitute.com. This is new. Uh, we are now on Facebook, Instagram, and LinkedIn uh as Lighthouse Institute. I think on Instagram it's at Lighthouse Institute with an underscore on the backside, but Lighthouse Institute everywhere else. And we're gonna continue pushing things out so people know who we are and and what we do. Perfect. Love that. One of the things we joke about, like going back to that idea about like, you know, giving our stuff away or sharing information, or you know, is it proprietary? Um, I I I always make a joke when I'm in the room with people because they ask that question in the room, also, right? And I say, well, hey, the first rule of lighthouse is talk about lighthouse. And the second rule of lighthouse is talk about lighthouse, which if you don't know, it's a it's a fight club line, right? And it's a reverse of it. It's like they say, don't talk about fight club. We want people talking about Lighthouse Institute. We want people talking about the leadership model and the ways to show up with this, you know, service-minded approach of shining bright for people around you. It's like go talk about it, share it, take it. So that's really the spirit with which I'm coming to the podcast and wanting-I mean, if more people were talking about leading in the lighthouse way, that's a that's a win to me. I'm happy about that. So I I want to see more of that taking place, not less.

SPEAKER_01 28:16

Likewise, likewise. And I think that's where my mind is right now, where I'm like, man, like I love that we are in the construction world and in this um in this realm, but I I just want to see lighthouse and you know, everywhere, you know. I just want to see it in families, I want to see it at hospitals, at sports, like everybody that has to do with somebody. I mean, even you just talking about mediation, like that's that happens in every single scenario where there are two people in a room. Like somebody's gonna have a hard time maybe expressing themselves or anything. And so I think just going through the lighthouse model and having somebody like you and like our company um just at their disposal in any particular way, I just think that's just so helpful. It's such an incredible tool that you can't just find as easily, I don't think. You know, I mean, I've never heard of any other companies that do what we're doing. Uh, and maybe just because I'm not in that world, I'm sure there are some others, but um, just the way that we're approaching it, I've never seen that perfect, that beautiful marriage of the way that we're doing it. Because it's not just, you know, like like you said, it's not just proprietary to construction, it's not just for this particular purpose. It's so malleable to different ways that we want to use it.

SPEAKER_00 29:27

So yeah, that's a good point. And I do think part of it is part of the lack of visibility, I think could be because you're you're not in that world. It is also our area in like the central coast of California. We don't have a lot of like really large employers. Our largest employers are government agencies, right? And so that's unique. Uh it's funny as um family and I were playing pickleball over the weekend at the courts, and we met some people and you know, we're talking, and the guy says, So, what do you do in a tascadero? And I'm like, Well, I don't do much in a Tascadero. Um, and you know, we absolutely want to get back to a point where we can be investing in the local community and providing resources to the local community, but for the most part, the work that Lighthouse Institute does is outside of the local community. I mean, our facilitators and coaches are either traveling a lot to the places or working remote, right, and doing virtual coaching and sessions like that. So it is interesting as far as you know, tell people what we do. And they're like, here? Right. Who are your clients? Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 30:31

And not a lot here. Yeah, totally. So when you are talking about, you know, bringing it back to the community, what what what's what's on your mind about that?

SPEAKER_00 30:43

Yeah, I mean, you know, I mean, coming from the give fitness world and just having such a connection to the local community with the give foundation. And I mean, we were known as kind of this spot, the logo was a well, right? Like, come to this place because this is where you can you can get water, you can get relief, like you can count on it. And that was just amazing. It was amazing to be able to support the community, have those resources to give back, and we want to get back to that kind of an idea. Uh, so we intend to uh eventually have a foundation nonprofit component of Lighthouse Institute that can support the local community, ways like even maybe like a parenting class or a youth sports coaching clinic or you know, marriage retreat, just things that will help give people tools, language, skills to again lead themselves well and lead other people around them well. Um, and the hope is that through the a nonprofit component, we can do it in a way that that can offer that, you know, subsidized, lower cost, you know, that kind of thing.

SPEAKER_01 31:48

Love that. That's amazing.

SPEAKER_00 31:50

Yeah, I think we last time we touched on, I know we did, I it sticks in my mind. We touched on the idea of like leadership and management not being the same thing. And it's interesting because I think that's where we end up starting a lot with, well, honestly, when people call and are interested in they'll say leadership training, but then usually in the first conversation, they use those terms interchangeably, like our managers, our leaders. I'm like, well, which one is it? Is it leaders or managers? So I thought that that was something we could probably spend a little bit of time, I always say disentangling those two terms, maybe speaking a little bit more to like which what each one is. Uh, and for our lighthouse leaders that have gone through the program that come through, this will be reinforcement, uh, and and you know, repainting that bridge and reviewing it for them to continue implementing. And for other people, it might be the first time that they're wait, leadership and management are different? What do you mean? So, what do you think about that?

SPEAKER_01 32:49

Yeah, I I agree. I think uh for me it it kind of tends to play the same way where leaders and managers is I I used to put them in a group together also, um, where in fact, I mean, in in the workforce, you don't hear, hey, I'm gonna go talk to my leader. You know, you you just say, Hey, I'm gonna go talk to my manager, I'm gonna see if my manager can, you know, let me have the day off, or uh, you know, there's a manager and then there's a supervisor, but you don't hear the term leader. Um, and I wonder if maybe there's like a negative connotation in some ways that maybe we can like scrape off right now some of that negativity off of it. Because if I think about it, if I was to, you know, tell somebody, I'm like, yeah, I gotta check with my leader at work, I think that might sound a little like, oh, wait, hold on, leader? What does that mean? Like, are they whipping you out there? Like, what's happening? You know, those are the visions that come to me if I was to think that way. That's super interesting.

SPEAKER_00 33:41

So you're saying there might potentially be some negative connotations around the term leader.

SPEAKER_01 33:47

Say more. What do you mean? Um, I feel like if if we bring it back to like elementary school, right? Like this, like, okay, if you want to lead the line, you have to do this. And everybody, whenever there's the leader in that line, guarantee you that nine out of those ten kids are jealous to not being that line leader, yeah, right? And so you don't see it as like, oh, we chose this person. Like, I think from very early stages, a leader is just somebody that gets appointed, and then you just have to submit to that person that's been appointed. Whereas I think in our world now, as grown-ups, as adults, when you talk to a leader or when you're talking, speaking of a leader, it's somebody that you know they've done their work, they've you know gone through the process, they are they have earned that position. But I think more often than not, it's more of a position that somebody gave to that person. And I mean, even voting, right? Like we we those are our leaders, and somebody might say, Well, I didn't vote for them, so that's not my leader. And so I think that's where that negative connotation can come from. So what do you think? Super interesting.

SPEAKER_00 34:46

No, it's it's fascinating. Yeah, uh so leading, yeah. How do we how do we start the conversation of of disentangling? Okay, leader, manager, right? Um, there's actually a funny story. Uh it's in Covey's uh seven habits of highly effective people, right? Which great, great resource. Um, so there's a story in there that he uses to illust illustrate the difference between like efficiency and effectiveness. So here's the gist of it a group of workers, right? They're hacking their way through a jungle with machetes, working hard, they're clearing brush, making visible progress. The managers are behind them, sharpening blades. Okay, they're improving technique, increasing their productivity. Like everyone's feeling busy, everyone's feeling efficient. Then a leader, right, climbs a tree, he gets to get this tall perspective because from above he can see what no one else on the ground can see. They're in the wrong jungle. Okay. So he yells down, stop, stop, we're in the wrong jungle. And the workers yell back, shut up, we're making great progress. Wow. And so on one hand, you read that story and you're like, come on. But then you go, like, well, how often is that happening? All the time, right? And so, what's the point? Like, management is doing things right, but leadership is doing the right things. Say that one more time. Yeah, management is doing things right, leadership is doing the right things. You can be incredibly efficient and still be fundamentally misaligned. Right? So I love that story. And then you think about like our shorthand where we get to in the leadership series, is that the core difference is you lead people and you manage systems and processes. So when we talk about leadership, it's setting direction and strategy, it's empowering, inspiring, motivating, and it's aligning people, the right people, with the right resources, right? Whereas management is more like planning, organizing, staffing, budgeting, like those are all of your systems. So what do you want out of leadership? Leadership, you want change for better results. We talk about the intent of leadership, it's change for better results. Intent of management, it's consistency for better results, right? And that right there usually has people go, oh, you lead people, manage systems and processes.

SPEAKER_01 37:26

Wow. Wow. That gets me thinking in like in so many areas, right? Like as leaders of your family. Like, what does that mean, right? Like, does that mean you are you have to be consistent as the leader of your family? Right? But when things are not working in some other ways, you do have to adjust as a leader, right? Because you're the one that has to like kind of like that manager and that uh that leader in that story, like you have to give that direction when you see that something's not going the the direction that your family wants to go that you should be leading them to. You adjust that, but the processes that's what you want to be consistent.

SPEAKER_00 38:04

Okay, so there you go. So 100% we can apply these ideas personally, professionally, everywhere in between. So the way the way we frame it and talk about in the leadership series is these are professionally organizational roles, okay? But really we can take off organizational roles of lead, manage, follow. Okay, now follow, hmm, what was that right? Lead, manage, follow. And I'm usually in a room with a bunch of high-level leaders as an organization. And so I cheekily always say, like, hey, is there anyone in here who does not report to anybody? Right. And like they all kind of look at me phony, I'm like, oh, you all report to someone? That means that you are all also followers, right? So we have a role as leaders, as managers, as followers, and they're different. And the most important piece is that we understand and know the difference. When are we in each role? Right. So leaders need to be able to manage, managers need to be able to lead, everyone needs to be able to follow. What does that mean? I said leadership change for better results, management, consistency for better results. Followership, we say the intent of followership is actually critiquing for better results, which is typically a pretty big mindset shift because a lot of people think it's a leader's job or the person at the top or the dad or the mom to critique for better results. When in reality, you want to empower that critiquing at that lowest implementation level, right? So when we talk followership, we say, hey, you're implementing and producing, you're submitting, you use that word a second ago, right? And you're providing honest feedback. You're giving honest feedback to your leaders, to your managers about what's happening, right? Warren Bennis has this great quote, and he says, leaders who listen and followers who speak up make an unbeatable team. Leaders who listen and followers who speak up make an unbeatable team. Most people have dual responsibility in that idea. As a leader, what do you do to set an environment where people can speak truth to power, where they can, they can give, they can speak up, right? What are you doing to create that environment? And do you listen? And then as a follower, that's usually a pretty courageous act, right? Like I've got to deploy some courage, I've got to lean into some vulnerability to say, like, hey, I got to speak up, something's happening here. Now, organizationally, that's usually pretty easy to make sense of. Pull that over the way you just did into kind of a family dynamic or a family environment. And hey, as a dad, what kind of environment am I creating where my kids can speak up? Because this is the other part of Warren Bennis's quote that I think is super important in both both containers, personally or professionally. When leaders react negatively to problems that are presented, the team gets better at hiding problems. Or let me put that in the personal container, right? When parents react negatively to problems that are presented, the kids get better at hiding their problems. And as a girl dad, that scares me. That's the last thing I want. People we could talk for another four hours about being a girl dad and all the things that people say to me about being a girl dad, right? But I have said from the time my kids were really little, like my number one goal is to keep them talking. Because if I can keep them talking, then I know what's going on, I can provide support, I can come alongside. But the moment they stop talking to me, that's when I really need to worry. And I'm gonna be an active contributor to them not talking to me if I react negatively to the problems that are presented. I need to create that environment. Default answer, thank you for telling me. Thank you for telling me. And that's uh, you know, again, I mentioned Dr. Becky last time, parenting world, Dr. Becky Kennedy, check her out. But she says, Thank you for telling me, I believe you, tell me more. There's your one, two, three. Thank you for telling me, I believe you, tell me more. What's going on here? Professionally, if I react negatively to problems that are presented, team gets better at hiding problems. That should also scare me because I need to know those things. Right. And and this will often come up. A lot of leaders, managers, I don't know what term you want to give them, right? But you'll hear this, you'll hear this idea. Well, don't bring me the problem unless you're gonna bring me the solution. Or don't bring me the problem without the solution. You know what they just heard? Don't bring me any problems. And you better know how to solve them and you better know how to fix them. Correct. And that that that's I don't know that that's the right sentiment. I don't know that that's what we want to be communicating to people.

SPEAKER_01 42:55

Yeah, I don't think so, especially in a in a work environment where it's all up to everybody. Everybody's a piece of that cog, right? Like a different piece of that uh equation. And so if one if you're trying to delegate some of your tasks to somebody else, like then what what is your position for then at that point? You know, if you are say a manager or a leader in that company and you're asking them to just come already with a solution, then what's what's your role then? Right.

SPEAKER_00 43:22

Just to sign and approve? Well, and you've probably communicated to that person, just figure it out, right? So then they end up putting their head down, probably making mistakes, and then you're gonna get mad at them for that later, anyways. Exactly. Yeah, so how do I just see it all the time, right? And so how do we shift that? Yeah, and usually where people will get to is you know, what I want the the intent behind that is I want them to also think about the solution. Yeah, fully agree, but let's name that, right? So it's not don't bring me the problem without bringing me the solution. It's like, hey, I want you to know the door is open. And you have the safety and trust to let me know if something is creating a challenge for you, if there's a problem, if there's an obstacle, and let's talk about it. And when we do, I'm probably gonna put the burden of thinking back on you. And I'll say, Hey, like, how do you think we should handle this? What would you do if I wasn't here? Right. And then we'll talk about that decision. The very first one, you're probably gonna be like 60% of the way there. And I'll say, Good thinking, and what about this? What about that? And after a few reps, you're gonna get to a point where you're making that decision without me, or even better, as if I were there, right? So you can do that professionally and you can also do that personally. My number one favorite question to ask my girls is, what do you think? Yes, you know, Dad, what about that? What do you think? Right? What do you think the answer is? What do you think your punishment should be? What do you think should be? Like, what's the consequence here? You know, what's what's the reward here? Like, they're pretty smart. And if we equip them with the ability to think, that's how we grow leaders, right? Um, create an environment for thinking, whether that's at home or at work, and that is how people will grow in their competency and step into leadership. If we're giving all the answers, giving them directions, giving them instructions, then they just learn how to obey. And right in the parental bucket, then they just know how to listen to my voice, and they'll ultimately end up replacing my voice with someone else's voice. And they'll just be a little follower, just listening and doing. And I don't want that. No, right? I want leaders who can think, who can um strategically evaluate things and who can come to decisions on their own.

SPEAKER_01 45:41

100%. Man, there's so much good stuff in there. Like I can I'm thinking already of like the decision tree, and I'm thinking of like all these amazing tools that we've learned over, you know, the the leadership series. Um I love one of the ones that you also mentioned. Um let me see if he comes back to me. Um, let's move on. It'll come back to me eventually.

SPEAKER_00 46:03

But so we're we're still kind of talking about the three roles idea, right? Leadership, management, followership, understanding the difference in those. I mean, I have a pretty practical, real example of this. You know, I was early 20s and ended up in a I was managing a health club and I got the position I was given was general manager, right? So I'm the general manager of a of a large health club, but really I was leading teams of people, and I that was a complete oversight for me. I the the measure of success that was communicated to me was a profit margin percentage on the PL. It was, hey, you're gonna have your gross income, and then these are all the expenses to the club, and here's the here's the bottom line. And this bottom line needs to be 15% of that top number. And it was like, okay, mission accepted. I very clear, right? I told you my degree's in organizational management, so I just looked at all I looked at every expense, like it was just the number, line items. I'm looking at systems, processes, and it's like I got to do whatever I gotta do to get to this 15%. And I completely steamrolled people in the process, just didn't even have there's just no consideration for the fact that like this takes a team of people to make this happen. I mean, it was a train wreck, right? And and it ended up kind of coming to a bit of a bit of an explosion. So you go, okay, well, I I hit the 15 prop 15% profit margin, but I had no team that wanted to follow or be a part of any of it in the process. Is that a is that a win? No, it it definitely wasn't, right? So that was kind of learning the lesson the hard way of then having to backpedal and come back and go, oh, okay, this is my role is actually about people, not this thing. And and how do we get collective buy-in to accomplishing this goal together? I'm thankful to have learned that lesson like really early.

SPEAKER_01 48:02

Um, but it stung a little bit. Yeah. I mean, that makes me think of what do we say, hard on systems, soft on people. Yeah. Yeah. Did we talk about that last time? I don't know if we have.

SPEAKER_00 48:11

Yeah. So when we when we get to that idea of leading people, but managing processes and systems, uh, well, what do we do when things aren't going well? Because that that's often the the the choke point, right? The collision. And so what we say is, look, we can be we can be really hard on process, critical of the process, and we can be soft on people. Right? Um, that that concept was introduced to me. Oh, this will be fun, actually. Um, because I did the leadership north county in San Luis Obispo. So um people will probably be familiar with uh the leadership programs that the Chamber of Commerce puts out. San Luis Obispo got a lot of good traction with their program. The North County attempted to do one a handful of years back. Uh, Leadership North County. I was in the first class. So the first group, um, the chamber puts it on, and you get to go through this year-long program of going behind the scenes and looking at different industries and really fascinating. We got to go to Twin Cities Hospital and we were touring with the CEO. His name's Mark, I'm blanking on his last name right now, but he was taking our group throughout the hospital and takes us up to ICU and said that like the week prior, they had had a nurse administer the wrong medication to the wrong patient. Yeah. All of us are sitting there like, uh oh. And he's like, that cannot happen. This is life and death. Like, that's absolutely unacceptable. And we we have human beings working for us. He's I know for a fact that that was not her intention. She had no intention of giving the wrong medication to the wrong patient. And yet it happened. So what do I do? And I'm sitting there like, what do you do? And he said, I'm gonna be extremely hard on our process and soft on the person. So, where in our systems, where in our check and balance did we miss? How did this, how do we not be able to mitigate for this or plan for this? Clearly, she didn't mean to do this, but this can never happen again. And that permission to to direct some some hard energy, some critical energy somewhere, I think is really freeing for people. Because without that idea, you just want to direct it at the person. Oh my god, what's wrong with you? Like, how could you possibly, right? And so in the room, I'll just say, hey, like, raise your hand if you have never ever made a mistake, right? And they kind of smirk at me, laugh a little bit, nobody raises their hand. Like, well, raise your hand if you intend to never ever make another mistake, right? Nobody raises their hand. And so it's like, so team, you know this, but then why are we so surprised when the people around us make mistakes? Why do we have such adverse reactions to it? Because we don't know where to put that energy, right? So I think when we when we say it that way, like, hey, be hard on the process, soft on the people. Now, we work in construction, some people have a really hard time with that word soft, right? And so we can say it a couple different ways. One of the other ways we'll say it is, hey, be critical of the process, be curious with people. Or Doug Conant was a former Fortune 500 CEO. He's one of the few that went on to write a book. He went on Brene Brown's podcast and he was talking about his leadership story, his leadership journey. And the way he phrased it was you can be tough minded on matters of performance and tender hearted with people. Those aren't mutually exclusive from each other. And oftentimes we we think they are. Like I can either be tough-minded or tender hearted. And Doug says, No, you can do both be tough minded, matters of performance and tender hearted with people, right? So that's really a big part of how we unpack that leadership and management idea is we we know, especially in construction, you've got to bring some of that. Just direct that at your processes. When there is an undesirable outcome, then you look at it and say, Where'd we miss in our systems? I'm sure this wasn't your intentions, but we can't have this again, right? Now, what comes up there often is people will say, Well, what if you've been really hard on the process, you've been really critical of the process, you've told them the process five times, Josh, and they still just can't, you've been soft with the people, but they just still can't get the process. I say at that point, you might have a people problem, right? You might have the wrong person in the wrong seat if we're talking organizationally, right? You, yeah, if you've been really clear, if you've come back to the system, you've been patient with this person, and they can't get it together, you might, what Jim Collins would say is you might have the wrong person in the wrong seat on the bus. So, and we've got to be willing to have that conversation as well. Absolutely.

SPEAKER_01 53:16

Wow, man, dude, that was a beautiful way to unpack that. A little bit there. Oh, absolutely. If I can bring it back a little bit to um talking a little bit about uh opening those channels of conversation, and you know, we're talking about a little bit of our kids and uh just in leadership positions. If you are wanting to open that door for criticism, right? Because I think that's such an important component of if you want to get better at that communication level. Um, I mean, I know we talk about in the rooms, we talk about alphas and deltas. Can you give me like the really quick version of what that looks like to create that environment? To hey, like if you're asking for input, you're talking about a plus delta. A plus that's right, a plus delta, yes.

SPEAKER_00 54:01

Yeah. So great question. You're talking about setting the environment for being able to get feedback from people, right? So uh something that you just said that was really important, and it's I'm spacing on it right now, but you you made a comment when you were going through and just asking that question. You said, um, say it again. What did I say?

SPEAKER_01 54:25

Um, yeah, when you're trying to get Oh, I know what it was.

SPEAKER_00 54:29

You were talking about wanting to get better. So that's first and foremost. There has there has to be a desire and willingness to get better. And I believe that needs to be communicated. So, as part of the intentions, as part of setting the environment, it's like, hey, I really want to grow. I want to get better as a leader, whether that's organizationally or I tell my girls this all the time. I want to be the best dad I can be for you. And I need your help in order to do that. I actually can't grow and be the dad you need me to be without your feedback. Same thing professionally, right? When I'm talking to the members on the team, like, hey, I need you to tell me what you need from me in order for me to get better. So I think that's that was what it was. You were saying, like, if I want to get better, well, that's first and foremost. You have to have a desire and willingness to want to get better. And then you have to you you have you have to communicate in a way that people believe you. Right? So, plus delta, what's that? It's a small tool that we use. It's literally a T chart. You just draw on a piece of paper, just a line down the middle, line across the top, pluses on this side, delta on this side. And it's like, hey, I want you to give me specific feedback on how I've been showing up as a husband, dad, leader of this house over the last month. What do you got for me? If it's a plus, you'll just say, Hey, I I like the way you've been doing this, or you know, please keep doing that. And then the delta side, you'll just say, like, you might want to think about changing this, or you might consider this, right? That way there's some language, and I know if it's a plus delta. They don't have to say, Well, this one's a plus. Hey, dad, this one's a delta, right? Um, another really important piece if you're using that tool and exercise is to tell the people there's no balance required here. Like, you don't have to, for every plus you give me, give me a delta, or if you know, give me a plus and then a delta and then a plus. I'm gonna come back to that one. The the compliment sandwich. Yeah, I want to talk about that in a second. Um, so yeah, you know, you're saying, again, I want to grow, I can't do it without your feedback. So I'd be super grateful for you just just send it, right? Send it. Uh, and then when they start giving you feedback, right? Hey, you know, dad, I really like the way you've been getting us together on Sunday afternoons to talk about our week. Awesome, that's a plus. Like, thank you. Yeah, you might want to consider an earlier bedtime over here, right? Okay, right, whatever it might be that comes up. I can't explain it away right there. If I respond again, if I respond negatively to something that's being presented to me, what do you think is gonna happen to them? They'll stop. Boop, like the button is going on, they are locking that thing, and they're not gonna say anything else. So I'm in collection mode and I just say, Hey, thank you. Thank you. What else you got? Anything else? Thank you. Let me collect, right? And then I'll say, This is super valuable to me. Let me process this, let me think about this, and let me circle back with you. I'm communicating care, concern. I'm gonna steward this well. I don't want to just be like, well, yeah, you know, the reason that I do this, this, this, and this, and this, because that shuts down the environment for feedback. So we want to keep collecting it. I'll I have some people that do say the first time they tried to do it, they felt like the people around them wouldn't share, that they felt really nervous, that they, you know, uh I actually just did it yesterday with uh with my teenagers.

SPEAKER_01 57:56

Wow. And it was hard. It was a struggle. Um, mainly on my part, on trying to not explain myself. Man, it's so tempting. It's so uh, I think it's just so natural to, you know, how we talk about like our intentions, right? Like we judge others on their actions, but not on their, you know, we judge ourselves. We judge ourselves by our intentions, but we judge others by behavior. And so very, very quickly my mind went there, like, well, that was not my intention, right? And that's what my mind was telling me to like I just wanted to like express it, you know, because I could hear some of those deltas, and I'm like, oh man, they're they missed the point, you know, they missed the you know what I was trying to do, you know, like uh the impact that I had on them was so different than my intention.

SPEAKER_00 58:41

Isn't that funny? In the moment, like listen to this, because in the moment, I mean that's your ego, it's your ego popping up wanting to protect you, it wants to protect you, and so it says, Oh, they missed my intentions. When in reality, when you stop, you zoom out and you look at it, who actually missed? I do, right? You missed because you you didn't let your intentions be known. And so in that moment, yeah, it's defensiveness, it's our pride, it's our ego bubbles up, and it's like, Wait, you no, but if you do that in that moment, they're like, Oh yeah, I'm not telling dad another thing.

SPEAKER_01 59:18

It would have been done 100%. And I mean, in prior to this, like, you know, I've tried all kinds of ways to talk to them and to, you know, get them to talk and get them to express and how they're feeling, and all this stuff, and it's been a struggle. It's been like I'm doing like 80, maybe 90% of the talking, and they're doing like 10 and 20. Yesterday, they did the 90 because I turned mine down to five or ten to just continue to explore more, to be more curious, to like tell me more. Um, so anyways, an incredible tool, incredible tool. And at the end of it, I can just tell you this that um that ego was washed away by the feeling of man, I was able to make them feel heard. I think for maybe first time in a very, very long time, I I could see it in their eyes. I can see it, even though they were, you know, upset in some ways, you know, like because there was a lot of feelings being talked about. Um, I could tell that at the end of that, they walked away almost a little bit in disbelief of like, wait, there was no defensiveness, there was no like, well, I did this because of that. There was no like that talk about like this is a lesson, this is any of that. It was like, hey, thank you so much for sharing that with me. Wow, I need to process this. Uh, let's circle back next week. And they were both kind of shocked about it, like, oh wait, what? That's it. Like, yeah. And so, anyways, just wanted to share that. Super powerful.

SPEAKER_00 1:00:39

First of all, thank you for doing that. Yeah, courageous act that I'm sure is gonna give you some good data. Oh, yeah, to help find some one percent. Um, if we play that back in the specific roles, okay, so you were taking a leader role in the family, and you were saying, Hey, I want to grow, I want to get better, I want to ask you boys for some feedback, and they, in their followership role, were courageous enough, it sounds like, to what we say, speak some truth to power. So they spoke that truth to power, right? Because you created an environment that allowed them to do that. Now you thanked them, and you're in the processing window, and you're gonna come back around and you're gonna close that loop. Something like, boys, thank you so much. You gave me some things to think about. Here's here's some ways that I thought about these things, here's some actions that I'm committing to take. Um, here's some things I'd love to just kind of like brush up on real quick. You know, I I failed back here in letting you know about my intentions on this thing. So what you experienced and and felt as an impact was was this, and I'm gonna do a better job moving forward of working to declare my intent so that you know that at the beginning, right? And so that that process of coming back around, it's not a one and done thing. The the hope is that the next time you circled back around, they'd have they'd probably get into it a little quicker, right? Because they're like, oh, this is a pattern. Dad, dad asked for this before. I'm I'm ready to tee this back up. And you know what? He did kind of work on that thing after after we had that conversation. So I'm gonna give him a little bit more. That's that's to me the magic of the tool and coming back around and and continuing to use that in the in the family setting, and you might be similar. I don't know. I'm be curious to hear what you have to say. Roles, right? So lead, manage, follow. Uh one of the things we encourage participants to do is to say, hey, like, think about how much of your day you spend in each role. So, okay, at work, out of 100%, what percentage of your day are you leading? What percentage of your day are you managing? What percentage of your day are you like wearing the followership hat and following? At home, are those percentages different? Right? Like evaluated at home. And what for me, when I go through that exercise, that's the added bonus of facilitating the leadership series. I get to encounter this material every other week, you know? Um, when I go through that exercise, the realization for me every time is okay, I do a ton of leading at home. I do a lot of setting direction and strategy, inspiring, empowering, and motivating and aligning my family with resources. But my wife does almost all the managing, right? The day-to-day, the consistency, the the organizing, the staffing, the planning, the budgeting, the shuttling to school and practice and dance. And I mean, she does the the vast majority of of the managing. Does that mean I can't do it? No. And does that mean she can't lead and inspire them and empower them and motivate them? No, it just means those are the roles we fall into more, right? Um, and then we both have to figure out that followership piece and and how we're speaking truth to power to each other. And then the third kind of component of so we say at work, at home. And then what would it look like to apply these the idea of these roles to yourself? Which it starts to feel kind of like one of those in the clouds woo-woo things, you know. But but enough people have have gotten some some good stuff out of this that I think it's worthy. Is you say, okay, how well do I lead myself? Do I set direction and strategy? Do I inspire, empower, and motivate myself? Do I align myself with the right resources? What what are my systems for myself? Like what habits and systems do I have that produce those consistent outcomes that I'm wanting? And then this one gets a little weird, but how well do I follow myself? Do I have feedback rhythms and systems where I'm actually like speaking truth to myself about the things I said I was gonna do and how I was gonna do it? And am I providing that feedback? Like that's it's a pretty interesting exercise that that people spend some time in there.

SPEAKER_01 1:05:05

Would you think that there's a like a right or correct order in which to do those? Like, should you start, like if somebody was to want to start practically right now, like should they start with self and then with relationships, or should you start relationships and self, or just start where you are right now and just yeah, I don't know if there's a right, right or wrong way to go about it.

SPEAKER_00 1:05:27

I think those are those are three distinct buckets that most people could look at, right? Myself, my personal life, my professional life. And really it's it's to compare and and to see um, you know, some of the core questions we asked is as you look at your percentages. So, hey, you know, if I'm spending 60% of my day leading and 30% of my day managing and only 10% following, is that what I want? Do I want to be leading more than I'm managing or following? To be honest, in the leadership series, most people find that they are managing way more than they're leading. So they're back, oh my gosh, I'm actually spending like 70% of my day managing, maybe 20% leading and 10% following. And when we say, is that what you want? No. And I don't think that's what my organization wants either, which is why I'm in this leadership development training. And so then it's like, well, what's going to be required of you to move toward a little more leadership and less management? Right? What are the things that are causing you to sit in management longer than leadership? And so yeah, I don't think there's a right or wrong way. I think it's more about just evaluating those three buckets and then asking yourself, is this what I want? Am I spending an appropriate amount of time from my own perspective in each of these roles?

SPEAKER_01 1:06:41

I'd almost think that on a personal level, when you're assessing those buckets, you, you know, I mean, depending on your personality and what you're trying to accomplish in life, like you want those to be fairly balanced, right? Like you want to lead yourself as much as you want to manage yourself as much as you want to follow all of those things about yourself. So maybe it's I think that's a good point.

SPEAKER_00 1:07:03

If you're talking self, right, then there does need to probably be a pretty good balance, uh, integrated model where I'm I'm doing it all, right? Um, yeah, steady that direction, having the systems, but having a feedback loop. And the one I advocate for is honestly, it's points right back to the plus delta, is just to use the plus delta as a bookend to your day each day to just sit down and put a little plus. What things went well today? What can I celebrate? You know, sometimes it's like takes 30 seconds just to write out that was a big win, that convo with the wife. And you know what, the way I handled that convo today with Chris was good. And and then a delta. What happened today that needs work? Well, you know, my oldest kind of got under my skin. I went off on her a little bit, shouldn't have done that. Um, I I didn't get to my workout today. If that's on there, it's a problem for me. But uh didn't get to my workout today, you know, whatever it might be. So plus Delta. And and there's we'll talk about this later when we get to mindset and unpack some of those things. But there's a ton of science that says our brain will work for us while we're sleeping to try to move the needle on that. So I tell my brain things I did well, things that need work, and while I'm sleeping, my subconscious will be like, let's do more of that thing that went well, and let's do less of that thing that needs work. Right. And I can accomplish a lot over the course of time by letting my brain work for me while I hibernate.

SPEAKER_01 1:08:26

As um as our buddy Chris Fayle would say, Can I double click a little bit on that? Yeah. Yeah. I love that phrase. I love using that double clicking.

SPEAKER_00 1:08:36

I love the way that he uses computer language and just conversation. He's like, I'm just gonna copy paste that to this conversation. Like, come on, man.

SPEAKER_01 1:08:43

So good. But yeah, you want to double click on that one? On on what you're maybe part of your routine at night, you know? What do you what do you what what's on your nightstand? What's on Josh Donovan's nightstand as far as tools go to I mean, you're downloading your day, so is this what does this look like? Is this a sticky note? Is it a little notepad?

SPEAKER_00 1:09:00

Is it a It's usually a paper journal, like a mole skin, you know, like legit journal. You got me one for my birthday, right? I have a crazy amount of them. Um it's usually a journal. Um why that over maybe writing it on your phone? Uh well, because I try and disconnect from the phone uh before going to bed. So, you know, those who have been in a leadership series room with me know I don't charge my phone in my bedroom. Um 2020 was kind of the perfect storm for me, uh which we talked a little bit about last time. Um, you know, coming off of that election, one that I was participating in. Uh things were really contentious. And I also watched the social dilemma on Netflix. So uh if if anyone has seen that, you know what I'm talking about. If you haven't, you should probably go check it out. It's a it's a good little watch, daunting watch. Um, but I, yeah, from that moved my cell phone out of the bedroom. So I charge my iPhone in the bathroom. It is still my alarm clock, but it's in another room, so I have to like get up out of bed to to go get it. And then once I'm out of bed, I don't get back in bed. So there's that. But you were asking about the bookend at night. So yeah, phone's already gone. So I don't wanna I don't want to be on the screen. And then there's just a ton of science around the hand to brain connection. So physically writing, I'm also a little bit of a nerd in that way that I just I really like my my pen and my paper and my journal. So yeah, it's honestly it if I'm really transparently honest, it's not something at this point that I necessarily do every single night non-negotiably. Um, but I do have it there and pretty frequently I'm checking in on that plus delta as a bookend to my night. Um, I do brag in the leadership series rooms that it is something my daughters do non-negotiably every night. Right now, it's my older two. My my youngest hasn't quite adopted the habit. But we it started, it was probably about five years ago, which means she would have been around 11. And what was happening at bedtime is we were getting this like apology to her. So, like right before bedtime, she'd be like, Hey, I'm really sorry for the way I did that earlier, and I'm sorry for this, and I'm sorry for the way I talked to my sister. I'm like, Okay, you know, we're kind of in like this is almost our free time. So good night, good night, yeah, yeah, you're good. Yeah, you were thank you. Thanks for apologizing, go to bed. Um, but it was sticking with me, and I was, yeah, I just couldn't figure out like, what is she doing? And as Brianna and I talked about it, we realized she was taking a mental inventory of her day. So she was sitting there kind of like running through her day, and she was pulling out these negative pieces and wanting, wanting to own it and wanting to kind of like, I don't know, the analogy I just like go to bed with a clean slate kind of a thing, right? And so I grabbed this old journal and I said, Hey kiddo, like instead of doing this apology tour, like here's what I want you to do. I want you to write a plus and I want you to think of two or three things that were really awesome from your day that you did really well that you would celebrate. And then I want you to write this little triangle, and a triangle is a delta, and that just means something that we want to change over time. So if you feel like maybe you talked to your sister rudely, or maybe you were a little disrespectful to mom or whatever it might, just write that down in there and save your sorries. That was a term that's it's become of like a family phrase. Like save your sorries for when they really matter, right? Like, not the oh, sorry I bumped into you or sorry I did this or sorry for breathing. It's like we have like so many of us, and I hope if you're a sorry person that you're listening to this, that you just say sorry for things that do not need to be said sorry for, flip those to gratitude, right? So if you're like, if I texted you 10 minutes ago and you're like, sorry for the delay, like do not write that. Stop writing that. If you have to say something, say thank you for your patience, all right? Thanks for understanding, thanks for waiting. But yeah, I again that could be a whole nother episode, right? So I just told her, save your sorries. You know, if you really feel like there's something you need to apologize for, fine. But let's let's just have you end your night this way, writing it down, and then we can have hugs, kisses, you know, fun goodnights. Totally change the game. She's super diligent about it. I think now she's on like her third journal. Wow. She takes it to camping, to sleepovers, out of town, vacations, wherever. It's like it's non-negotiable for her. She needs to do it before she goes to bed. And I love watching it. And so I share that in rooms. Um, and I say this, and I'll be like, hey, this is a little bit of a humble brag on my kid, but it's also like, hey, if an 11-year-old can do it, you can do it, right? If you see value in that and you can see the um the benefits that you're getting on the backside, but yeah, I don't know. Did that answer your question?

SPEAKER_01 1:13:46

It's kind of like night routine. Yeah, and that reminds me a little bit of where you're gonna talk about that sandwich.

SPEAKER_00 1:13:53

Oh, I do have to hit back on this one. Yeah, so it's really interesting. People call it like the compliment sandwich or the feedback sandwich, you know what I mean? Like, oh yeah, but it's that whole idea of like say something positive, then say the thing you need to say, then say the positive thing. And they'll even call it a positive sandwich sometimes, right? And I'm like, well, hold on a second. That like that's naming the sandwich based on the bread, right? Like, and when I go places and get a sandwich, they don't name the sandwich typically based on the bread, they name it on what's in the middle, right? It's a peanut butter and jelly sandwich because that's in the middle, it's a ham sandwich because that's in the middle. And really what you're talking about is a crap sandwich, okay? Because you're trying to give someone some crap, but you are covering it up with these, with these compliments or a pleasantry, or like give them something good, then give them something bad, then give them something good and get out of there. And what happens is we wire people's neuropathways that if when something's good is coming, the bad thing's right on its heels. So they start to not trust anything positive that you have to say because they're just waiting for the negative thing to come after, right? And so it's like, don't do that. Just say, hey, I got some feedback to give to you. Is now a good time, right? Hey, I got something I want to talk to you about. Um, a great, great book and resource in this bucket is uh your next conversation, or maybe it's just the next conversation. Jefferson Fisher, he's a trial attorney that started doing Instagram reels and just front-facing camera and went crazy. And he wrote a book. It's it's phenomenal. I think it's called The Next Conversation, Jefferson Fisher, and he just unpacks all kinds of ways to deliver that kind of feedback directly with a quick on-ramp, right? If you've ever been in that conversation, you're like, hey, so uh like how was your weekend? And hey, okay, I gotta let you go. You know, like no, just skip the pleasantries. Hey, we need to have a hard conversation today. It's it's it's gonna be hard for you to handle. Let's go ahead and sit down and get into it, right?

SPEAKER_01 1:16:00

Wow, that I I've been a receiver of the compliment sandwich, and at first it felt good, but like you just said, like now my brain is expecting the the crap in the middle. But I'm like, man, like I know there's something coming. And and to the point that, like, even if there's no negative thing coming, now you hear a positive. I'm like, okay, I just kind of brace myself a little bit, like, what's next? So then a better way to do that would be just to address it dead on, you'd say.

SPEAKER_00 1:16:30

100%. Can we have a conversation? Hey, there's something I want to talk to you about when's a good time, right? Um, just something like that, just more more direct.

SPEAKER_01 1:16:37

Yeah, and I I actually like I like that that language of um asking that person, is this a good time or when is a good time for you? Because that gives you a little bit of padding as as to not be so like, hey, this I want to deal with this now. And sure, that might be your intention, but you need to also be respectful of the person receiving that, being like, is this a good time for you? Because they could be in a completely totally different brain space that that conversation, it might not be productive at the end. Um, so yeah, I love that language of let's let's both be in a good space together, but know that this needs to happen.

SPEAKER_00 1:17:13

And I think in in the right relationships or in relationships that we're in on a consistent basis, like we should be talking about those things before they actually happen, right? So we should say, like, hey, when something comes up and we need to have a conversation about it, you know, where are we gonna go? What's that gonna look like? What's the best way to on-ramp that conversation? And some relationships we'll have code words, right? Like, hey, like when we say this word, that means like we need to go over here and and have a chat, right? Um, my wife and I will use same team just as a reminder, like when we can feel things maybe going a little bit sideways, right? And someone comes up, we'll be like, hey, same team, right? Or we just recently heard it said another way on a different podcast. It's sometimes one of you just needs to say, remember, we're best friends. Right. So like love that remember we're best friends. Oh, that's right. We're on the same team on this, right? This is about them, not us. Love that. Yeah, so I think like I think the more you can talk about those things on the front end, the easier it makes it when you um, you know, hit turbulence, if you will. Mm-hmm. Yeah, emotionally loaded or whatever it be. Yeah, so we've been a lot of places today, but we primarily I think we're talking about those roles lead, manage, follow, right? How those roles apply personally, professionally, to myself. Um, one of the pieces of followership that we we talked about a lot, but didn't really necessarily unpack or speak to is that idea of speaking truth to power. And Warren Bennis's quote is actually something to the effect of like, if I had to reduce the responsibilities of a good follower to a single rule, it would be this speak truth to power, right? And and it's that idea of providing feedback, of speaking up, of of saying the thing that needs to be said. And um, we use a a story as an illustration in the leadership series about about Stalin, Joseph Stalin, and Nikita Khrushchev. He was his right-hand man, like during the bloody purge, and you know, the tons and tons of people that were killed. And it was it was really, really, really bad. And after Stalin, Khrushchev rose to power, and he was he was doing something super abnormal. He he was doing a public Q ⁇ A at like the Washington Press Club, and people were able to submit questions, and he's like standing up at this podium and collecting cards, and he gets one, and it says, like, during Stalin's reign of power, what were you doing to stop him? And he's like, Looks at the card and goes out to the crowd and he's like, Who said this? You know, the crowd's really quiet, and he's like, What did you say to stop him? When you're like, Who said this? And he like slams the podium, says aloud, and crickets and he says, I was doing exactly what all of you are doing, which is standing silently doing nothing, right? And in rooms people will be like, Yeah, well, imagine if that dude would have spoken up, what could have happened, right? But you can kind of internalize the the guilt and and pressure that Kirchhoff had, and like would it maybe, maybe something could have been different if he had had the courage to speak truth to power. And so one of the questions we'll ask is Is there someone that you need to speak truth to power to that you've been avoiding, or you know, a conversation that really needs to be had, and you've been you've been kind of standing on the sidelines, and and what what might it look like to lean into the idea of speaking truth to power? And we know you've got to have psychological safety, right? That's leaders who listen and followers who speak up make an unbeatable team. So, how do we set the stage for that? We know psychological safety is the key dynamic of any high-performing relationship, any high-performing team, any high-performing organization. Amy Edmondson, she has done incredible work around psychological safety. What does that mean? It means that we can have the conversation. We can talk about our fears, our failures, our risks, our wins, our successes, that we have the psychological safety to talk about what we need to talk about. I want that in my marriage, I want that with my kids, I want that with you, I want that with everyone on our team. Like those are the kinds of relationships I want to have where we know we we have this, the container and the safety we need to be able to talk about whatever we need to talk about. Cause it really matters.

SPEAKER_01 1:21:42

It does. It makes such a big difference having that synergy, right? Back and forth. Because if there's not that, then it's just a one-way mess, is what I would call it.

SPEAKER_00 1:21:52

So, yeah. So going back, you know, to where I fumbled and trying to catch that, like where you said, Hey, you know, I want to get better. And you were talking about how do you kind of lead into that environment of having a plus delta and getting getting that feedback from people, you know, I think that that's like an important component to talk about in our relationships is like, hey, I want us, I want us to have a psychologically safe relationship. I want us to have high trust in our relationship. Hey, wife, I want us to have a high functioning, high performing marriage, right? It's like funny to say, but that is the reality. And and and I want us to be able to work together to get better at those things, right? And what's really important is when we talk that way, we we kind of inception people's brain in telling them to let us out of whatever box they've they've created, right? So when I say things like, hey, I really do want to get better, the other person is hearing me acknowledge, well, I'm not the greatest I can be. I'm not, you know, I'm not saying I'm perfect. I'm telling you, I want to grow and I want to get better. And if they've created any kind of ceiling for me or leash or box to where they have this predetermined idea, that could be a little, a little bit of help to them and me to let me out of that, right? And we tell our participants to say that all the time. Like when you're talking to someone, say, hey, I'm in this leadership development class and I'm working on getting better. And I really need your help in order to do that. So would you do this plus delta exercise with me? Would you be willing to be a raider in my 360? You know, would you sit down and look at my MBTI report and tell me like where I can improve in communication? Um, the more that we can collect those things, the better. You know, we call them, we call them blind spots. And one of the things that's like it's pretty basic, but it's funny to say is it it's really, really hard to identify blind spots if you insist you don't have any, right? Like you've got them. I mean, I got a soon-to-be driver in my house. I think you probably do too. Like you're talking about those blind spots. It's like when you're driving, there's just spots in the car you cannot see unless you physically move your body and look at them. In life, as we're walking through our journey, there's just things other people can see that we can't see. And when we empower them to give us feedback and tell us what some of those things are, that's a gift. But we have to believe that first and foremost, and then we have to communicate that to the people around us, give them that permission, set that environment, uh, and then we can really move and grow together.

SPEAKER_01 1:24:33

It's beautiful. You touched on two, I think, at least two really great points on honesty, ownership, being honest with that person about where you are and what your intentions are, and then that ownership of like, man, I know that I have not been that person or I have not done the actions to get us to where we want to be, but I'm ready. This is this is what I want to do now. And I I love that analogy of that blind spot on the cars, right? Because we could blame the car, we could blame the our minds and our bodies. I'm like, man, I just I just I'm not capable of seeing that. You could use that language, but in reality, you just have to turn and look. You have to address it, you have to acknowledge that you have blind spots. You can't just say, Well, I didn't have a blind spot, therefore I, you know, ran that person over. I'm like, well, right, uh, that's not gonna work.

SPEAKER_00 1:25:19

Yeah, and if we just operate from a place of knowing that other people around us can see things that we can't see, then when they share those things with us, we really can embrace them like a gift. When we think we can see it all and we know it all and we've got it figured out, and everyone else can get out of my way, then when those things are presented to us, it's like that's where that ego, the pride, the self-preservation, the protection, the armor, all that thing, all that pops up, and that's prickly for other people around us. So then what do they learn? Ah yeah, don't bring that Josh's way, right? Like that's that's not safe. Like, don't have that conversation, and then we run run the risk of continuing to operate with those blind spots and probably more. Then more blind spots start coming up, right? Because you get really narrow-minded and thinking you know what's best.

SPEAKER_01 1:26:13

Yeah, and nobody around you is gonna want to point those out, like you said, you know, and that's that's a pretty lonely place to be. Indeed. Dude, what a great oh man, amazing! What a great, great, great day.

SPEAKER_00 1:26:26

Cool. All right, thank you for listening to episode two, leadership and we were wrapping up that conversation, talking about potential blind spots, uh, getting feedback, our responses to feedback. And we want to take that opportunity to remind you all we are interested in in your feedback. We we assume there's things that you can see in here that that we can't see in here. Uh so we're very interested in that. Um please you can shoot us an email, uh Josh D at lighthouseinstitute.com. Uh that'll just come directly to me. Uh socials as well.

SPEAKER_01 1:27:02

Absolutely. Yeah. So if you want to leave a comment on YouTube or Spotify, or actually, I don't even know if you can leave a comment on Spotify, but I know you can make some comments there. Uh, Facebook, Instagram, all of our socials. Like we are keeping an eye on those every day. So if there are questions you have, comments, or more content that you would like to hear more about, uh, just let us know there.

SPEAKER_00 1:27:21

Absolutely. And we would feel super grateful if you think it's worthy of sharing this podcast with any friends, family members, co-workers. Uh, our hope is that we can continue to spread the word, spread the light, so that together we can all go shine bright.