Episode 05 | Leadership AND…Personality with Brianna Donovan

What Personality Teaches Us About Leadership, Marriage, and Parenting

What happens when two people who see the world completely differently choose to build a life together?

In this episode of Leadership, And..., Josh Donovan and Patrick Ibarra welcome a very special guest: Josh's wife of nearly 21 years, Brianna Donovan. Together, they pull back the curtain on their marriage, their family, and the surprising ways personality differences have become one of their greatest strengths.

Using the Myers-Briggs Type Indicator (MBTI) as a framework, they explore how personality influences communication, conflict, decision-making, leadership, parenting, and relationships of every kind.

More importantly, they challenge a common assumption:
Different isn't something to overcome.
It's something to understand.

Whether you're leading a team, raising children, strengthening your marriage, or simply trying to communicate better with the people around you, this conversation offers practical tools that can transform the way you see yourself and everyone around you.

In This Episode:
* The unexpected story of Josh and Brianna's marriage before their wedding
* Why opposite personalities often create stronger teams
* The biggest misconceptions about personality assessments
* The difference between personality and behavior
* How introverts and extroverts experience the same conversation differently
* Why "How?" and "Wow!" are two completely different conversations
* What personality reveals about conflict, communication, and decision-making
* Practical ways to honor people who think differently than you
* How understanding personality can strengthen marriages, families, friendships, and workplaces
* The simple habits that have helped sustain more than two decades of marriage
Resources Mentioned:
* Myers-Briggs Type Indicator (MBTI)
* 16Personalities (free personality assessment)
* Lighthouse Institute Leadership Series
Timestamps:

00:00 — Introducing a very special guest
07:00 — The story behind Josh & Brianna's marriage
17:00 — Parenting three very different daughters
19:00 — What personality actually is (and isn't)
25:45 — Understanding the four MBTI dimensions
39:00 — Introverts vs. extroverts: more than being "outgoing"
49:30 — Personality, communication, and conflict
1:00:30 — Why "I'm processing" changes conversations
1:10:30 — Big picture vs. details: "Wow" or "How?"
1:23:30 — Thinking vs. feeling in leadership decisions
1:31:00 — Deadlines, planning, and personality
1:39:00 — Using MBTI to improve communication
1:45:45 — The feedback conversation every leader should have
1:57:30 — Navigating conflict with different personalities
2:03:15 — Twenty-one years of marriage: what really matters

About Lighthouse Institute

Lighthouse Institute exists to shine light that ignites connection, inspires hope, and transforms generations.

Through leadership development, coaching, facilitation, and organizational training, Lighthouse helps individuals and teams grow in self-awareness, communication, trust, ownership, and leadership effectiveness.

The Leadership, And… podcast explores leadership through the lens of real life: work, parenting, marriage, conflict, purpose, growth, and everything in between.

Follow along for more conversations about leadership, parenting, relationships, conflict, growth, and the human side of leadership.

Let's Go Shine Bright ✨

Transcript

SPEAKER_01 0:01

Most importantly, leadership is relational and it's human.

SPEAKER_00 0:06

And then we'll hear, yeah, but. Because we're kind of obsessed with that word but.

SPEAKER_01 0:14

Right. I hear you, but. I love you, but. I'm sorry, but thank you, but you're doing good, but just deleted everything that was just said.

SPEAKER_00 0:28

So we really need the word and I hear you and. I love you and I'm sorry and thank you and you're doing good. I'm Josh Dunman with Lighthouse Institute.

SPEAKER_01 0:42

And I'm Patrick Upara with Lighthouse Media. And excited to dive into leadership through real conversations. It's all on the table.

SPEAKER_00 0:52

Work, parenting, marriage, conflict, friendship, personal growth. Because wherever you go, there you are. Leading yourself and leading others. So really, this is leadership and everything else. All right, we have episode five coming up for you today of leadership and with a very special guest who you will hear about right out of the gate. It's my wife, it's Brianna Donovan, and super excited to bring her onto the podcast with full awareness that it was a challenge for her. We we finished the lap last episode with Chris Ferry talking about doing hard things, embracing the challenge, embracing the suck, getting outside of your comfort zone. And I just want to name right now that Brianna coming onto the podcast and having a conversation with us, but you know, with all of you largely was very far outside of her comfort zone. Anything you want to say to that, Patrick?

SPEAKER_01 1:58

Yeah, totally. I mean, you guys, you know, on the other side of the screen, you don't see this, but like there's lights, there's cameras, there's microphones, there's so much equipment. All the attention is on you. And so for somebody that's not used to that, it can be super intimidating. It could be, I mean, it's definitely out of my comfort zone. And I've been doing this for 25 years. And so, um, so yeah, there's a lot. And so I'm super proud of the way that she showed up and the just the way that she just was open with us. And um, and yeah, it was super cool.

SPEAKER_00 2:24

It was fun, it was really good. Uh, I think we used the Myers Briggs type indicator, so personality assessment as really the backdrop for this conversation, knowing that Brianna and I have opposite personalities. Uh, we knew that that would just give us an opportunity to have broad conversation. Uh, on the on the back side of the episode, we really kind of sat down. The three of us were like, we could do another one of these. And so we just wanted to let you know now that we did. We did two rounds of this. And so um, this episode's releasing July 1st. This is uh a conversation with Brianna, part one of two. And on July 15th, you'll see the the second round of that where we actually are able to take a much deeper dive into our personal relationship, parenting, and some of those things that are uh less detailed as the the MBTI. But one of the things we you'll hear in the episode, we pause at some point. Um, the MBTI will be very familiar to our leadership series participants. Um, everyone who goes through it uh does that assessment and gets to unpack personality in in a deep way. If you've not experienced that, we are willing to make the MBTI assessment and report available to you. So you'll hear that throughout the episode. But um, you can shoot us an email, you can shoot me an email, joshd at lighthouseinstitute.com. If you want to take that Myers Briggs uh step to interpretive report, uh, we're gonna make that available to all of our listeners at the Lighthouse cost, which is just sixty-five dollars per assessment. So uh if you want to hit the ground running on this episode, you would um go go get access to that now, uh, get the report, and then you could listen to the episode uh with that at your disposal so you could get more of the the learning associated with it. Anything you want to add to that, my friend?

SPEAKER_01 4:04

No, I don't think so. Yeah. Enjoy this episode. It's super fun.

SPEAKER_00 4:07

With my favorite person.

SPEAKER_01 4:09

Yeah. What a treat.

SPEAKER_00 4:12

Okay, we have a very special guest today on leadership and and it's one that sets us up for some conversation about leadership and marriage, leadership and parenting, leadership and personality, really all the things. Because today we are recording with my very best friend, my number one person in the world, my wife of almost 21 years. Brianna Donovan. Hello.

SPEAKER_02 4:42

Hello, thank you for having me.

SPEAKER_00 4:44

We're excited you're here.

SPEAKER_02 4:45

Yeah, almost 21 years. Hard to believe.

SPEAKER_00 4:47

Hard to believe. Yeah, we will celebrate 21 years on May 25th. That is our anniversary. Although some people think it's a different date. Yeah. We can we can talk about that a little bit. Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_03 4:58

Okay.

SPEAKER_00 4:59

Uh so Brianna comes to the table with lots of different roles personally and professionally. Uh, while you are my wife, you are also an administrative support person within the the organization. So you have uh a lot of roles, some some roles defined within the company, some some undefined.

SPEAKER_03 5:17

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 5:17

Yeah. So you have involvement on on kind of every aspect of of my life and the things that are going on in the lighthouse world.

SPEAKER_02 5:24

Yes, I do. All I take care of all the things.

SPEAKER_00 5:28

All the things. Excited to be here today?

SPEAKER_02 5:31

Yeah, I'm very excited. Thank you. Thank you for having me.

SPEAKER_00 5:33

Tell us what the story in your head has been coming in to uh do this podcast with Patrick and me.

SPEAKER_02 5:38

Honestly. Yeah. Uh nervous and excited. A lot of feelings. Yeah. Um, as you know, I don't prefer to I prefer one-on-one conversations or small group. So three is pretty much my max beyond that. I mean, this is what we're doing though, right? It's just three of us, but my mind knows that there, you know, are other people.

SPEAKER_00 6:03

There's lots of people listening and watching it.

SPEAKER_02 6:05

There could be. Yeah, it makes me a little bit nervous, truthfully. And um looking forward to it also.

SPEAKER_00 6:11

That's good. The fun part is no one's listening right now.

SPEAKER_02 6:14

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 6:15

Exactly. Yeah. And so we are here today. Is what Monday? It's April 27th. Um, this will actually be episode five that's going to come out in like June, you know, somewhere in June. So this will be a little bit further down the road. Uh, we're recording today with the the knowledge and the awareness that we are naming this podcast Leadership and Patrick and I have recorded a handful of episodes where we haven't even known what we're naming this thing.

SPEAKER_03 6:43

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 6:43

So we're moving the needle, we're we're getting this thing further down the road. The first podcast episode's actually gonna launch this week. There's been lots of things happening on our social media and some teasers and uh previews, and see people seem to be excited. And so we had to get you on here.

SPEAKER_03 7:00

Well, thank you. See how it goes.

SPEAKER_00 7:03

Yeah, I think I started with those three buckets of marriage, parenting, and also personality. Brianna and I talked ahead of time coming in here and just saying um I recently did the personality session in the leadership series where we unpacked the Myers-Briggs type indicator um personality type. And Brianna and I happen to be opposite for the most part opposite personality type. So that gives us a nice little backdrop to talk about some things that will be really relevant to our leadership series participants. Um, but personality is one of those things out there in the world that I think people can really benefit from some deeper understanding as well. So we can talk about that, and maybe we just dive in right now to like the whole marriage thing, you know. So let's do it. 21 years on May 25th. Uh some people believe that our anniversary is June 16th, yes, 2007. But our our real anniversary is May 25th, 2005. Yes. Do you want to talk about that?

SPEAKER_02 8:01

Yeah, let's do it. Where do we start? Uh really. Um where we met?

SPEAKER_04 8:06

Sure.

SPEAKER_02 8:07

Okay. Where did we meet? We were both in high school, but we didn't know each other from high school. We um I got a job at Albertsons, and this cute boy who worked there happened to be this guy. And I had a pretty big big crush.

SPEAKER_00 8:23

Did you?

SPEAKER_02 8:24

I did. Yeah, you probably would not have known that based off of your personality. My personality and my vibes, uh, which basically told him get away from me because I was intimidated by his good looks and his charm. Uh he was very outgoing and personable. Uh, a lot of people were would gravitate towards him, except for me.

SPEAKER_00 8:50

Brianna was very shy, very reserved, very quiet. Uh, just kind of did her thing at work. She was also very cute. And I was attempting to like flirt, make some advances. Hey, what's going on? And um, that typically went pretty well for me uh in that window of my life. And it wasn't going well. I'm like, I'm not getting a lot of response. Like, what's happening here? You know, what's going on? Oh, she she must not be interested. Uh, and that that created some challenges. Um, I would we were courtesy clerks, which they call baggers, box boys, you know, like we courtesy clerks is the nice phrase for it. Uh, and there was a one of the managers at Albertsons had gone to high school with my dad. And so I got some special privileges. In fact, my dad actually wasn't stoked about that because he it was my first job and he wanted me to kind of get run through it. And so I get this job, and one of his high school friends is there, and it it quickly became a pretty cush job for me. And uh I was in charge of writing the cart schedule. So the courtesy clerks go out and pick up the carts. Uh and Brianna is not like responding to my advances, my flirts, and so I'm going to make the cart schedule. I'm like, we need someone out there like one in the afternoon, and it's July. It's like a hundred degrees in a task of all that girl that gets the bright red cheeks, she'll probably do good with that one. I'm gonna put her on the mid-afternoon shift.

SPEAKER_02 10:22

Yeah, which is fine because your shift is an hour.

SPEAKER_00 10:25

Okay.

SPEAKER_02 10:25

So that's to be expected, right? But when this guy is writing the cart schedule and he schedules you from one to three, double duty, you're like, what's going on with this guy?

SPEAKER_01 10:37

So you both thought that you guys hated each other, basically. Kind of.

SPEAKER_00 10:41

I mean, yeah, we were both writing stories about the other person that were not good. Wow.

SPEAKER_01 10:45

Yeah. Because I was gonna ask you, like, what did that do to you when she was like not responsive to the things that have work for you? Did you think, oh, I'm gonna try harder, or were you like, eh, for a little bit, and then I was like, what's wrong with this lady?

SPEAKER_00 10:57

You know, what's up with this jay? Uh and so then what happened? Like, I think you came in sad one day. You right?

SPEAKER_02 11:05

I was sad.

SPEAKER_00 11:05

You were sad.

SPEAKER_02 11:06

Yes.

SPEAKER_00 11:07

I think you had a boyfriend that broke up with you.

SPEAKER_02 11:10

Yes, I had a little summer boyfriend who had also worked there previously. We didn't, we just didn't work together, him and I. And he broke my heart after a couple of months, thankfully. But that day I was sad, and you picked up on it, and he offered me a hug. That was it.

SPEAKER_00 11:29

That was it, man. Once she got that hug, it was over. Yeah, the magic hug.

SPEAKER_03 11:34

The magic hug.

SPEAKER_00 11:35

It was the magic hug. So we dated a little bit in high school, um, back and forth, on and off, that kind of thing.

SPEAKER_02 11:42

Um hung out together at work constantly.

SPEAKER_00 11:46

Yeah, she was my work wife for sure.

SPEAKER_02 11:48

Yeah. I mean, we would push carts together and tell stories and flirt.

SPEAKER_00 11:54

Yeah, it was fun. It was good times. Yeah. Uh yeah, so that that carried on. I was I had already joined uh signed to join the Marine Corps. We've talked about that. Um, and really what happened in 2005 is I was I was getting ready to deploy, and it there was just some extenuating circumstances, you know. Brianna and I had been doing the dating thing back and forth and um getting ready to deploy, thinking about going to war, and you start learning what you can and can't do if you have a girlfriend versus if you have a wife, right? And so it's like they wouldn't even let you have phone calling permissions, or um, you definitely can't list a girlfriend as like a beneficiary if anything were to happen to you. The military also kind of reverse incentivizes these young boys, they you know, put them in a class and show them here's how much you get paid. But if you were married, you'd get paid this much. Double. And if you had kids, you'd get paid this much.

SPEAKER_02 12:53

Wow. No wonder the divorce rate is so high in the military. It's like, you want to get married? For financial reasons.

SPEAKER_00 13:00

And honestly, that was the conversation we had. We we knew we loved each other, we knew we wanted to walk down that path. Uh, but in that moment when it was in 2005, I mean, we told her parents the night before, like, we're gonna go and get married tomorrow.

SPEAKER_02 13:15

Yeah. Well, I mean, we pretty much had just decided that day or two before.

SPEAKER_00 13:20

How old were you guys? Oh man. She was 20.

SPEAKER_02 13:23

20.

SPEAKER_00 13:24

Yeah, and I was 21. That's fascinating. So now we're hitting 21 years of marriage, which means we're gonna be in that window where I've spent most more of my life married to you than Yeah, you're welcome. That's beautiful. So we literally like the arrangement was we're not gonna tell people, we're just gonna go down and do like a contractual county clerk's office, get you know, business agreement. Like, we're gonna get this thing done. And we even talked about we'll annul it after the first year, and then we'll we'll we'll do it right on the backside. And I think I I think I don't even think it was a month into my deployment. I I remember on the phone and she's like, I don't want to annul this. Like, this is the start of our marriage. We're gonna we're gonna push and I'm oh okay, cool.

SPEAKER_03 14:06

Got her, yeah, got her, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 14:08

He tricked me, set the trap, got her locked in. Uh we we like literally I ended up fine. We didn't tell people about that. We ended up having a wedding. So when I got home, I still did the full like proposal, went to Avala Beach, had my dad hold up the sign and said, Will you marry me? Made it in lights, like on the pier, did the whole thing, had a legit real wedding on June 16th, 2007. And like, I just kind of, you know, we just talked about it a lot, but there was I remember there was a conversation later. My grandmother was like, What do you mean you got married before your wedding? Oh, did we not tell you? I I thought we kind of told everybody. Yeah. Uh so people always ask us, what do you celebrate? And we we at this point in our lives, we celebrate May 25th as the day that we got married. And it because it that was our first year of marriage.

SPEAKER_02 15:06

Yeah. I mean, it was awkward standing there saying yes. I don't even know if we made eye contact, but we we were committing. And yeah, and then you were gone for close to a year.

SPEAKER_00 15:16

Yeah, but almost the first year of our marriage was me in Iraq. How was that for you?

SPEAKER_02 15:23

Um there was good and there was bad. Uh surprisingly, we had plenty of opportunity to communicate, I don't know, m from the computer, maybe using webcams. Yeah, 506.

SPEAKER_00 15:39

Yes. Uh I think it was like Yahoo chat. Yahoo Messenger chat with the external like ball webcam that sat on top of the laptop. I remember that was Christmas. We did Christmas that way, open presents back and forth.

SPEAKER_02 15:53

And he would write me letters, which I've kept, lots of letters. And um, of course I was worried. And I think he also you know did his best to uh keep some things to himself as to not worry me, which I think was the best.

SPEAKER_00 16:11

Selective information sharing.

SPEAKER_01 16:13

Yes. Wise man.

SPEAKER_00 16:16

Yeah. So we're hitting 21 years of marriage. Uh people have heard me talk quite a bit. We have three daughters. Um, so you want to share a little bit about the journey to parenthood?

SPEAKER_02 16:29

Um I mean, the journey's pretty long. Yeah, three daughters. We've got Brylon who currently is 15. She'll be 16 in September, which is wild. We might have a driver on our hands. And then we have Brinley, who's 13 and happens to share a birthday with me. So that was a great birthday gift. And then Blakely, she's 11, about to be 12. So it's three daughters. It's not what I ever expected, but I wouldn't wouldn't trade it for anything.

SPEAKER_04 17:01

Love that one.

SPEAKER_01 17:02

Yeah. They're beautiful. Your daughters are beautiful, like outside too, but like inside, they're so like both of you. And they all have like just these different qualities um of each one of you. And so I'm so excited to see what these girls are gonna do with their lives and everything that you guys are pouring into them. Like, seriously, it's a gift to the world to each one of them. They are so thank you. Yeah, I'm so excited. They're pretty good kids.

SPEAKER_02 17:30

Yeah, I'm excited as well. They are good kids.

SPEAKER_01 17:33

Yeah. Really good kids. What do you attribute that to?

SPEAKER_02 17:38

Uh well, I think a lot of it, I mean, a lot of it comes down to personality and then the way that we are also raised. So that's nature, nurture.

SPEAKER_00 17:50

You're in it. You're in the personality conversation already. So okay, let's pull on this thread. And um let me set it up a little bit. So in the Lighthouse ecosystem, um, when we talk personality, we use the Myers Briggs type indicator, the Myers Briggs company. Um, there are a lot of personality tools out there in the marketplace. Um, some others that come to mind are like Enneagram, the big five. There's um, you know, the some people will use like the animal assessment, where they use like the parrot or the lion, or there's that. There's a lot of personality. Some people will call them tests, some people will call them assessments, right? There's a lot of information out there. The why behind Lighthouse using the Myers-Briggs company and the MBTI specifically is they are widely known as the most valid and reliable res um personality assessment that's on the market. Valid and reliable are research terms. So Brene Brown has this cool video, or it's a funny video where she explains uh validity and reliability. She says, if I step on a scale and it gives me an accurate weight, she makes a joke. She says, 120. She's like, that's a very accurate. I would pay a lot of money for that scale. And then she says, actually, that's not a valid scale, but let's just say it gives a valid weight, right? So you step on a scale, valid weight. That's validity. Reliability is you step on that scale every day, over and over, and it gives you the same accurate, valid weight. And so that when you're researching something or when you're assessing something, that's what you want. You want validity and reliability. And so Myers Briggs has literally been around for a hundred years. And over time in the marketplace, they have been solidified as the most valid and the most reliable personality assessment. There's a lot of thoughts out there, different camps, different schools of thought. Some people that say the Myers Briggs is, you know, not a very useful tool. Others people that say it's a it's a very useful tool. Uh, I think where we land is it's not the end-all be all. There, you know, you're not gonna get everything you need to know out of looking at somebody's personality assessment. And and as a certified practitioner of the MBTI, I'll I'll share some things today to help clarify some of those uh misconceptions about personality. Uh what we use it for is a piece of awareness. Can we use the MBTI in a personality assessment as a way of getting deeper awareness of ourselves and other people, some deeper understanding, and use it as a tool to engage in our relationships? I know you and I definitely caught in a ton of value out of the MBTI individually and collectively, like together in our relationship. So we can talk about that as well. Sure. So one of the first things that comes up when we sh when we have the personality conversation in the leadership series with the room, literally we start with three questions. What is a personality? How do you get one? And can you change it? Why or why not? And I intentionally at that point, when those questions are being asked, I do not answer them. I just wait and hear what comes out of the room. And I love the rooms where they tell me, we've covered this before, we've we've done the MBTI, we we we know this stuff. I'm like, awesome. Well, then we should have a ton of alignment around these questions. And this this will be fast, this will be easy. So what's a personality? And that first question is all over the board. Like all over the board. Um what are they saying? Um, they'll say anything from like it's the uh it's your traits and behaviors and how you show up in the world to it's your beliefs and your um your thoughts that are that you know inform how you show up in the world. Uh they'll say it's your characteristics. They'll I mean they're just okay, they're kind of everywhere.

SPEAKER_03 21:41

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 21:42

Um how do you get one? So that was what you were on just now. You were on the nature, nurture is it are you born with it, or is it your environment and your life experiences? What do you guys think? Where do you come from?

SPEAKER_02 21:55

Both both.

SPEAKER_00 21:56

Both.

SPEAKER_02 21:57

Absolutely, a hundred percent.

SPEAKER_00 22:00

Both.

SPEAKER_02 22:00

I do believe that a lot of my personality is because I was born this way. I think when I came out of my mom, it was like you are gonna gravitate towards introversion. And I always have. And I don't think there's much that's going to change that. And then there are other things that uh got me to where I am today. And my personality is a certain way, and I have certain beliefs because of the way I I grew up and the experiences that I've had.

SPEAKER_00 22:30

Most people get there, I would say. It's funny though, because you'll there'll there will be some wrestling in the room on nature nurture. Like you'll have people like, it's absolutely one, it's your life experiences. There's no way, there's no way you can have a personality without the influence of your external environment, right? And then you'll have someone else say, Yeah, but like I when my my kid was born, and like within a few days, I can see personality coming out, and it's different than the other kid I got, right? Or you'll have a usually it's a parent that'll say, like, I had a guy in a room last week has nine children. And he's like, I'm nine children. I can 100% tell you, as much as my wife and I raise them the same, they all have different personalities. Yes, you know, and that's very visible, tangible, real.

SPEAKER_02 23:13

Yeah, it's real to us, and I'm sure it's real to you, Patrick.

SPEAKER_01 23:16

I mean, I'll have identical twin boys, and I mean, as close as they can, they've been raised together in almost exactly the same way every single minute of their lives, and they are so different from each other, and in amazing ways, both of them. And so, yeah, I think there's so much about just the way that they're, you know, they're being formed in the womb, you know, like there's something there that we cannot even interfere with. Like, I think you can do some, you know, nurturing to maybe steer it, steer the path a little bit, but for the most part, what's in you, it's it's in you.

SPEAKER_00 23:51

Okay, so th again, through the lens of the Myers Briggs company, I I share this as a practitioner of their tools. Um according to Myers Briggs, type is innate. So your personality type, they would say is innate, it's hardwired. More of that, I'm born with it idea, right? Uh-huh. And they say it's hardwired by age eight. So eight years old. So in saying that, it's and it's nature and nurture because it takes eight years of external environment influence, right? Another and, and they don't recommend taking the instrument until age 14. And when I was in the certification, I'm like, what's up with that? What's going on? Like you're saying hardwired by eight, but not to take the 14. And honestly, the instructor kind of like just shuffled me out of like, huh? Yeah, we're not 100% sure. Like, we'll just go this way. And so in the room, I tell people, okay, so let's just say somewhere between age eight and 14, your type is hardwired, it's innate. Yeah, it is um, yeah, more of that we're born with it idea, plus those external environments and the, you know, what we the influence we've experienced and all those things. Uh so one thing I want to say here, like leadership series participants will have gone through the MBTI assessment with us. We will have given them, we use what's called the step two interpretive report from Myers Briggs, and it's a deep dive. It's it's 17 pages. It gives you your four-letter type. I'm an E N T P, right? And then he laughs, like, yeah, you are, right? Uh he's like, it's the direct opposite letters of me. Right. Um, and then in that step two interpretive report, um, each one of those four dimensions. So the Myers Briggs has four dimensions, four dichotomies. Um, they expand out into these facet results where you can actually see more, more nuanced preferences in there. It's not just as basic as, you know, she already mentioned introversion or extroversion. What I would love for people to understand who have not gone through our leadership series, who may be listening, is you can go take a super quick free assessment online that will give you the four-letter type. Uh, sixteenpersonalities.com is just a pared-down free version of the MBTI. So you can jump onto that website, sixteenpersonalities.com. You can go through it and it will give you your four-letter type. It will say, you are an INFJ or you are a ESTP, right? Like, and that will probably help them follow along in this conversation. So if that's something that you have interest in, listeners, just pause right here. Go, go take that assessment and then come back and pick this conversation up.

SPEAKER_03 26:41

That's super cool.

SPEAKER_00 26:42

Yeah. And then if there's anyone who's wanting the deeper dive into the step two interpretive report um that we have access to, just shoot us an email. Um, it can be joshd lighthouse institute.com. Let us know you're interested in MBTI assessment and we'll we'll help you get that, uh, get access to that. You've taken it. Oh yeah.

SPEAKER_01 27:01

Yeah. Oh yeah. I'm direct opposite as you too.

SPEAKER_00 27:04

Um You're on Breeze Camp?

SPEAKER_01 27:06

I'm pretty sure.

SPEAKER_02 27:06

Are you shocked?

SPEAKER_00 27:07

A little bit.

SPEAKER_02 27:08

Look at us.

SPEAKER_01 27:09

Oh, same Chris Felay, which I think I saw pretty close to you.

SPEAKER_00 27:13

No, that's close to him. No.

SPEAKER_01 27:14

No. Oh. He's an ENFP. Yeah, that's yeah, ENFP.

SPEAKER_02 27:20

ISFP.

SPEAKER_01 27:22

Okay. Okay. Gotcha.

SPEAKER_00 27:24

She functions a lot like a J, which we'll talk about. Um so yeah. So let's go back to the girls though. Yeah. Because that's kind of how we got to you, right? So it was the girls and their different personalities and the nature versus nurture and how that parenting thing goes. So what do you notice in the girls as far as personality differences?

SPEAKER_02 27:44

They're all so different.

SPEAKER_00 27:46

Extremely different.

SPEAKER_02 27:47

Yeah. Uh, you know, um, I honestly cannot tell whether Braylon, our oldest, is an I or an E. There are times when she's seems to be a a kid that kind of wants to you know she's an E. Now that I think about it, she prefers to be around people. She she gains energy from being around people. I don't know what I'm thinking. And then there's Brinley, who is my mini me, and she is an I. Gravitates towards introversion. And then you could take one look at Blake Lee and you know for sure she is an E. She is she is her dad.

SPEAKER_00 28:30

I agree. Uh, that's good. Um, and and I think EI is like extroversion, introversion is just an easy place to gravitate towards and land on because um it's tends to be somewhat visible, although I do want to pull on that thread a little bit. Sure. Um, and it's just one of those things that people have context for. Yeah. So let's go back through some of the other questions I ask in the room and and bring some clarity to the idea of personality. Uh, just because I do think there's a lot of misunderstandings, uh, misconceptions out there. Uh so this first question is what's a personality? Right. Um, how do you get one?

SPEAKER_04 29:09

Yep.

SPEAKER_00 29:10

Uh, and can you change it, why or why not? Yeah. So we talked a little bit about how you can get one. Um, I'm gonna come back to what what is a personality? Uh the whole can you change it, why or why not?

SPEAKER_04 29:20

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 29:21

That gets some heat in the in the rooms. Um what do you think? What do I well I know?

SPEAKER_04 29:27

Darn it, I was gonna teach you. No.

SPEAKER_00 29:30

Okay. I know, I know through the lens of Myers Briggs, right? Um, but I think in order to have that conversation, we first have to say, well, what is it? Right. So before we're we can talk about can it change or not, we have to say, what is it? Because what happens in the room is people talk about yes, you can change it. And then what they talk about changing is their behavior.

SPEAKER_04 29:52

Oh.

SPEAKER_00 29:54

Right. And so it's really important to make a distinction between personality and behavior. Yeah. And that's why when people say, What is it? and they start talking about behavior or traits or things that you display, it's it's an interesting conversation. Um, here, let's do this actually, and we'll kind of make this idea real. So, like put your hands up, both of you like this. Um, and if you're if you're listening and you're not watching uh video, you can just just hold your hands right in front of you, you know, maybe like a foot apart. And then all you're gonna do is just like put your hands together and fold your hands. So take your your hands are apart and just put them together and like you're crossing your fingers, right? And then take them apart and do that again. Yeah. And then naturally your hands are gonna fall into like one pattern. So take note of which thumb is closest to you, which hand came closest to you. For me, it's my right thumb. My right hand is closest. What about you? Left. Left, left, left. Okay, right. And so then what we say is now left, right? Yeah, right, left correct. Correct? Okay, now what we say is take your hands back apart and switch it. So this time when you put your hands together, put the other hand in front. Do that again. Do it again with the other hand in front. And then we say, How did that feel the second time? And what words would you use?

SPEAKER_02 31:11

The second time.

SPEAKER_00 31:12

The second time when you were putting the other hand in front. How did that?

SPEAKER_02 31:15

I mean, I still had to think about it.

SPEAKER_00 31:16

You're to think about it.

SPEAKER_02 31:17

Think about it, it float a little easier the second time I attempted the opposite finger over.

SPEAKER_00 31:23

The second time it felt a little easier. How did it feel in comparison to the first time? Unnatural. Unnatural, uh, uncomfortable. Uncomfortable, weird, weird. We'll hear awkward, right? So that's one way to do it. The other way I'll do it in the room is I'll have them sign their name. So I'll say, hey, sign your name. Like you're endorsing. I joke, you're endorsing a million dollar check. Sign it, right? I wait, make sure everyone signs their paper. Now switch your pen to your non-dominant hand and sign again. And I'll hear a lot of grumbles, I'll hear a lot of somebody will say they can't, and then I'll just stand over them and watch, right? And then they get the signal. I actually two weeks ago, I had a guy like literally, he was just staring at me and he said, I can't, but he had made a point earlier in the day that you could you could behave outside of your personality. And so I'm like, please help me prove your point by signing with your and he he looked at me funny, went ahead and put it down. I was like, okay, good. So is it fair to say you have a preference for putting your hands together with your left hands in front? Or fair to say you have a preference for signing with your non-dominant or with your dominant hand.

SPEAKER_02 32:40

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 32:41

It does not mean that you're incapable of signing with your non-dominant hand, and it doesn't mean you're incapable of shifting your hands to a different position. But you have a preference for the other way. Personality is the same way. When we're talking about personality, we're talking about our preferences in certain dimensions. It's really important that we understand personality preferences do not determine behavior. So just because somebody comes, you know, type they call it types out, because somebody takes the assessment and um their their type comes out as extroverted, that doesn't mean that I can determine how they're going to behave. Right. Especially because in that particular dimension, what that speaks to is how someone gains energy, not how they spend energy. Yeah. So I actually make the joke in the room about you. I I say, I say, if you saw my wife and I walk into a party, you might think, oh my gosh, look at that extroverted couple. They look ready to go. Like, and we're we're hyped and we're having a good time. And and I say, what you can't see are the energy bars above our head, like the old school video games. And I usually make an NBA jam joke because that was my jam. And when you when your energy got maxed out in NBA jam, you got to hit like turbo. I don't know if did you ever play that? I don't think that's no, it was a super fun. Someone will nerd out with me on that. Uh, you do a turbo. And so I'm like, I tell them, my energy bar is like wow, like turbo, let's go. And hers is just so at nine o'clock, when I come up to her and I'm like, hey, where are we going? What are we doing? Yeah, what's next? Bed.

SPEAKER_02 34:25

Yes, it is. And knowing you and being married for 21 years almost, I know that that's coming. And, you know, we work together to figure out what what's next.

SPEAKER_00 34:40

Right. You've getting planned for that and strategized for it. And you've gotten better at putting the other thing.

SPEAKER_04 34:46

Yes.

SPEAKER_00 34:47

Okay, there it is, Patrick. So can you change it? The conversation of your personality, can you change it? Why or why not? Tons of people start that conversation by saying yes, right. And they're saying, Yeah, of course, because like, you know, you you learn to do this, you learn to do that. I'm like, you're talking about behavior, you're talking about strengthening the muscle of being able to sign with your non-dominant hand or to shift your hand, shift your hand position. According to Myers Briggs, over time, your core personality preferences aren't actually going to change. What changes is your ability to behave outside of those preferences. They call it flexing, right? So everyone will be shocked to hear I have a very clear preference for extroversion. What? Yeah, I know. Can you believe it? Right. But in first grade, right? That was problematic. I thought she kept moving my desk so I could meet new people. That's my joke, right? Like, hey, oh, what's up? Oh, Josh will not stop talking. Josh is disruptive in class. Oh my God, Josh. Right. Like I had to learn to behave outside of that extroverted preference in a classroom. And so we can't look at someone's behavior and assume we know what their personality preferences are because we don't that that doesn't show up in behavior. We have to have the conversation, or in reality, we have to have them take the assessment to really understand what those preferences are. One big asterisk I struggle with, I usually say little star, um, but one big asterisk is um traumatic events. So significant traumatic life events do have the potential and ability to shift core personality preferences. I want to make the distinction between uh an assessment like Myers Briggs, that is a personality preference assessment, um, versus something like disc or uh Gallup, Cliff, Clifton's Gallup's uh strengths, right? Strength finder, the 34 strengths, like those disc and strengths are behavior assessments. So when you see those things, you know that those things are coming out in behavior and people are are you're gonna see those things show up in real life. Myers Briggs is on like when you see someone's personality type, it's again, it's understanding, it's awareness, but it's not something that we can look at and be like, okay, we know how this person's gonna behave, which is why they say do not use it as a hiring tool. Do not use it as a compatibility tool. Uh, you know, you're like, oh, I'm wondering this person has this personality type. Should I date them? No, you should see how they show up and behave, right? Like, so yeah, what's what's coming up? What are you hearing?

SPEAKER_01 37:39

I love it. This is so interesting to me. Like the whole like adaptability that we have as humans, you know, to uh to our environment, you know, and to which goals do we have, you know, like if you're trying to, you know, get a job, you might behave differently than what your preferences are, which can totally lead you into the wrong direction because if you're not being true to your personality, you could end up in the wrong work environment. So it's super interesting to me that just how we behave as humans. Like it's it it we think we're doing ourselves a favor, maybe, or trying to like gain something with this, and in reality, we might be losing it all.

SPEAKER_00 38:19

It's interesting.

SPEAKER_02 38:20

That's fascinating.

SPEAKER_00 38:21

Back for you.

SPEAKER_02 38:22

I have I've always been interested in learning about this with you. And I'm and I'm still in the process of learning. I feel like every time we talk about the MBTI, I'm learning something new. Same. It's a great tool.

SPEAKER_00 38:36

Same. Yeah, we'll we'll get to some of those more granular conversations you can have using the report as a resource and some of those things. So um, let's talk about the the four dimensions. So there's four areas of the MBTI. Again, they call them, they call them dichotomies because there's um two sides in in each of the dimensions or dichotomies. So we we've been talking a lot about extroversion, introversion. That does speak specifically to energy. Um, but again, most people wrongly judge it because they they determine it based on what they see in behavior versus what they see and and how someone charges their battery. So um it really is how we how we prefer to derive our energy and focus our attention, is what Myers Briggs says. Those who prefer extroversion would gain energy from being in social environments, from being around people and they're gregarious and lively and guilty. That's me. Right. And then those who prefer introversion tend to want more solitude, some quiet reflection, um, more intimate. Like Brianna said at the beginning, she prefers one-to-one conversation. And it's funny, when she's in a one-to-one, she can look a lot like uh someone who prefers extroversion because it's comfortable, it's close and it's comfortable, right? I can be in a one-on-one and be like, oh, get me out of here. Um, so that's the first dimension. The second, um, and the third. So the first the middle two letters of your four-letter type in Myers Briggs speak specifically to your brain. So your brain's preferences. Um, the the second dimension is sensing or intuiting. And what that's refer is that's S or N. And what's that's that is referring to is your brain's preference for receiving information. So when you're taking information in, those who prefer sensing want that information in the details, they want the steps, uh, things that are practical, tangible, realistic, concrete. I can put my hands on them, right? Like boom, boom, boom, boom, boom. I love that. Yeah, look at she's like naughty.

SPEAKER_03 40:39

All the details. Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 40:40

And me and Patrick are like, here we go. Here's what we want. Those who prefer and intuition want to receive that information in the abstract, conceptual big picture idea, right? Like, save your details, we'll figure those out. Um, and you're like, save your abstract conceptual big picture idea, like give me the details. Um, so that's again, preference for receiving information, um, how we take that in and process. Uh, that's gonna be a fun one. We'll come back to that in our differences and and how that shows up. The third dimension, also brain process, it's your brain's preference for making decisions. Um, we've talked about putting the hands together as as identifying preference. We've talked about signatures. Um, one of the other ways you can do it is do you all know how to um figure out if somebody's regular foot or goofy foot when they're snowboarding or skateboarding?

SPEAKER_02 41:35

Yeah, don't you push them?

SPEAKER_00 41:36

Uh-huh.

unknown 41:36

Right.

SPEAKER_02 41:37

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 41:38

You just that you stand them up and get behind them and you push them. And then whichever foot they put out forward to like catch themselves, that's their first foot forward, right? Because and so same thing, you can in rooms uh have people stand on a line and say, take take one step forward. And they tend to lead with the same foot. That's the idea that's at play in the decision making dimension. It's what's your first foot forward, or really, what's your brain's first foot forward when you have a decision to make?

SPEAKER_03 42:07

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 42:08

People struggle with this one because those who prefer thinking, their brain's first foot forward in decision making is logic, it's reason, it's fairness, right? And fairness is different than what's on the other side of this, which is those who prefer feeling in their decision making, their brain's first foot forward is actually how is this going to impact people other people? So there's a harmonious, empathetic, compassionate approach to that decision making. And here's what I find a lot of us, and I will say us because I'm in this camp, a lot of us who prefer thinking like to think that we're feelers, right? That we that we consider the impact on people. And it's really hard for me, like it's challenging for me to sit here in front of you both and say, my brain just doesn't do that. When my brain has a decision to make, it approaches it very logically, very rationally. You know, she's nodding. She's like, Yeah, this is the pain I experience every time we have a decision to make, right? And Brianna's first foot forward is what's the impact on people? Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 43:15

Massive feeler.

SPEAKER_00 43:16

Yeah. So it's compassion, it's harmonious. And those who prefer feeling sometimes like to think like or feel that they're logical, that they are coming at it from a place of rationale.

SPEAKER_02 43:28

Isn't it logical to care about people?

SPEAKER_01 43:33

Think about them.

SPEAKER_00 43:34

Yes. And so I say this in the room and people laugh at me, but then there's at least one or two that like give me that look of like, thank you. I feel seeing here, right? Which is those who prefer thinking still have feelings.

SPEAKER_02 43:46

Yeah, you do.

SPEAKER_00 43:48

And those who prefer feeling can still think. Right. It's just where does your brain go first with a decision? Yeah. Right. So we're we're verbalizing. Brianna has. A very clear preference for feeling, and I have a I have a very clear preference for thinking.

SPEAKER_02 44:05

Patrick, yours was enough, right? Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 44:07

Same. Same. I'm just not married to him. But which which honestly makes me very, very curious as to how do you both lead your family? Maybe this is coming up, but I just want to know how you guys lead your family when you both are very opposite in that. So I think that I don't know. That could be a I think this is going to be a fantastic episode.

SPEAKER_00 44:26

Well, we definitely want to come back to that. Um and and and preview, we make a phenomenal team. Right? Yeah. I I I don't do phenomenal decision making on my own. And I don't know that she does phenomenal decision making on her own. But I know that we make a phenomenal team.

SPEAKER_02 44:45

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 44:46

Uh and that'll be something that that we can talk about more.

SPEAKER_02 44:49

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 44:49

Anything to say there?

SPEAKER_02 44:50

Oh, yeah. I mean, I don't know where our kids would be if I was the only the only person in the house running things as a feeler.

SPEAKER_01 44:59

Very interesting.

SPEAKER_02 45:00

Yeah, it's important to to tap into both.

SPEAKER_00 45:03

And similarly, I have no idea where our kids would be if I was the only one leading or making decisions. That balance. Um all right, let's hit let's hit the fourth dimension and then we can we can see where this goes. So the fourth dimension, um man, they're they're bad words, and not bad words, but like they're poor labels in the Myers-Briggs framework. It's it's called judging and perceiving, um, but it has nothing to do with like our level of judgment or or being judgmental, and it has nothing to do with perception. It's just there's just strange namings. Um, what they say is that the J and P dimension speaks to our interaction with the external world. Um, so I always say this comes to life on a calendar. This is where you see this one show up the most. So those who prefer judging, and I would say in the leadership series, this is our best image. We put an image up on the screen and it says those who prefer judging want planned milestones, mini deadlines. They likely start early and they finish early. And it just looks like this on a calendar. Boom, boom, boom, boom, boom, boom, boom. Right? They are our list people, they're our task people, they like to cross it off. And usually they're all nodding in the room. They're like, yeah, amen. That sounds great, right? And then uh those who prefer perceiving tend to get labeled as procrastinators and they tend to start late. And there's this big, like squiggly line on the image, and you know, and it says, like, should probably start doing something. And then the deadline's getting closer. It's like it's all it's pretty much done in my head, right? And then it says right ahead of the deadline, like just ahead of the deadline, it's finished. I have to say a couple things in the room to for the sake of both parties here that I think is important. And the first one is if something is after the deadline, that's not a personality preference at play. That's a respect issue, that's a boundary issue, it's a self-management issue. And I say it that way because I say, some of you want to tell me it's a time management issue, and there is no such thing as time management, there's only self-management. So again, it's a respect issue, a boundary issue, and a self-management issue. And you can see the Jays in the room going, yeah, get them, get them, right? And then I have to say, and I need you Jays to understand this. If someone is truly so this is gonna be a little nerd alert, but in this dimension of judging perceiving, um, I told you all about the facets where they expand out into these, you know, nuanced differences, which you won't get on cert16personalities.com, but um, our leadership series participants will have it in their step two interpretive report. If you are truly pressure prompted, which is one of the facets inside someone who uh inside the perceiving preference, if someone is truly pressure prompted, right ahead of the deadline is actually their best work.

unknown 48:15

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 48:16

And I I'm like, let me say that again. Right ahead of the deadline is their best work. And so if someone who prefers judging, a J is forcing a P to work in that kind of environment and move their deadlines up, and I want to have a check-in, and you need to be this and that, you're gonna be actively shutting down or actively eroding their bet their best work. And I'd say most often that's when people are being uh pinned as micromanagers.

SPEAKER_04 48:48

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 48:48

Right. Because you're not give you're not allowing me the freedom to kind of operate within my own preferences.

SPEAKER_02 48:54

Yeah, I'm gonna get it done. Let me get it done on my timeline. You said by Friday, it'll be there Friday.

SPEAKER_00 49:00

Yep.

SPEAKER_02 49:00

And I'll I'll do great work where you let me be.

SPEAKER_00 49:03

Right. If the deadline's the deadline.

SPEAKER_02 49:05

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 49:07

Yeah. So that's a fun one. Okay, so those are the four dimensions. So in in the leadership series, in the rooms, we go through each one. We spend a good amount of time in each one asking people before we show them the reports, which which side of this do you think you're on? Right. And I love when people are like, I don't know, I'm right in the middle. I'm like, well, I promise you the assessment's gonna pick a letter for you. So pick one, just lean one way.

SPEAKER_02 49:32

I feel that a little bit with the the JP. The JP, because you are I'm a P, but you see so much J in me. And as you're talking through it, I can see both of those. I mean, it really depends on like what the task is. If it's something really big, I'm probably gonna wait till the last minute.

SPEAKER_00 49:50

I know. And this is gonna confuse people because I said that your personality doesn't change, but you've actually taken it twice and you've come out as a J before, and you've come out as a P before. And I know that there's gonna be people listening like, that happened to me. Um actually, I had three participants that it happened to last week. Um exactly. And so here's what I'll say about that. When the preference is clear, when it's very clear, like my preference for extroversion is very clear. We don't see that shift very much.

SPEAKER_02 50:19

Right.

SPEAKER_00 50:19

You see my ability to behave outside of that can shift. I can flex, but I if I take this thing when I'm 80, that's still gonna be every fast, it's gonna be an E. Right now, as I get older, as my kids get older, as always, I do enjoy some of the introverted moments and times, right? And I can I've learned to lean into them, but my preference is still over here. Um, when your preference is slight, when you're not very clear on that preference, we have seen it switch and vacillate. Now, in all honesty, I don't think you're really intended to take the assessment multiple times. Right. So, so you know, but we're working with some clients who have done it with other consultants or they've done it years ago, and so we need them to retake it. And so they're comparing. Like literally, I have guys in the room going, Oh, here's my report from eight years ago, and here's my report now. You said it wouldn't change. What happened? And I'm like, Well, when you took this eight years ago, your preference for, you know, judging was like tiny, yeah. Which very, very slight, which means you actually already had an ability to flex to to either side of that. And now we're seeing it on the other side also slight. So it's actually saying the same thing. You just you likely answered some questions a little bit different to get it to land one way or the other. Um, so there's that. People that have done the step two interpretive report, again, this is probably way more detailed than is needed, but I've got a detail person across from me.

SPEAKER_02 51:47

So no, I love the details.

SPEAKER_00 51:50

There, it's a the assessment is 155 questions. So 90 of those questions are really heavily weighted to give people those four letters. So the E or the I, the S or the N, the T or the F, the J or the P, those 90 questions, they're weighted questions. The other 65 questions are not as heavily weighted. And those are for the facet results. So they say the sum of the parts is greater than the whole. And what will happen is sometimes there's like five facets in each area. Sometimes people will have more facets in the other area. So, like they might have four of their facets where they prefer introversion, but they're coming out on the report as someone who prefers extroversion, and it's very confusing to them. They're like, What is going on here? Like, well, basically, what's it's saying is the way that you answered these questions in this facet give you this the E. And then in these other areas, you actually do prefer the introverted side of things. And so I communicate it to him as this is a superpower. This is this is saying you you have the ability to flex on on either side of this, and it's usually, especially in that dimension, it's usually uh environmentally dependent. So it depends on what's going on there, or it's people dependent. Yeah. Like if you're in a tight-knit group of people, you're like extroverted. Yeah. Right.

SPEAKER_02 53:13

But you feel that for me sometimes.

SPEAKER_04 53:17

Makes sense.

SPEAKER_00 53:18

Yeah. So that gives us a pretty good, a pretty good flyover. Um, yeah. What what's anything coming up for either of you?

SPEAKER_02 53:26

Questions or uh not at the moment.

SPEAKER_01 53:29

Yeah. I I think um you were saying something earlier about uh, you know, in the work environment. If somebody's being, you know, pushed, you know, when they are, you know, like we are in that world of like, hey, just give me the task, I'll get it done. You don't have to micromanage me. Um and I can just imagine in in the workforce, you know, in the work environment, there is so much of that, like those two personalities clashing because one of them thinks they're doing it the right way and the other one thinks that they're, you know, they're both think thinking they're doing the right way, right? But if that person that is more in the like every minute checking in and all that is the one in charge of that other person, like you said, that can just burn that other person. And so um, as a creative, you know, as photography being, you know, so close to my DNA, um, I resonate so much with that, where like I just there are, and I've been, I've been, you know, learning this about myself recently that um, you know, how there are people that, you know, you you try to go through your day and like maximize your time, and everybody's like, oh, the very first hours of the morning, that's where you want to like, you know, conquer your day and do all these things, right? And there are times for me that it's just very much, I don't want to call it it's like a mood thing, but like in the creative world, there are times where like I'm just not feeling the creativity. And it's, you know, it's not an hour dependent, it's not a time of the day dependent. It could be like a just the fluctuations of the week, the what happened, you know, like what's happening in our family, what's happening in all of the things, like with my body, with all the things, right? And so I've been trying to tap into in those moments where I feel the most creative to just allow like some time in my day to just jump in and be as creative as possible and not letting anything stop me, even if it's like, hey, I might miss like my lunchtime or my this or you know, something that is not crucial, obviously. Like I'm not not gonna pick up my kids from school, but sure um, but things like that. And so tapping into that energy level and whenever you're feeling that. And so this probably sounds like horrible for those people that are like super schedule, you know, minded that are like, no, like at 9 a.m. I have to have this, and at 10 a.m. I have to have coffee and at listen, you know, like all these things. And so, but for me has been so powerful being able to tap into that energy feeling like um because I've been able to get more done in one hour when I'm at my most creative, at my most productive, than trying to force it, you know. I might take me four times longer to try to get something done, even just responding to an email. My wife can answer this like so easily that I can sit there replying to an email for at least an hour. But if I'm in that mode, it could take me like 20 seconds. So, anyways, I think there's that that's kind of that that's where my mind went when you were talking about that.

SPEAKER_00 56:14

Yeah, super interesting.

SPEAKER_02 56:15

It's important to pay attention to.

SPEAKER_00 56:16

Yeah, and there's more threads on there. I'm gonna pull a little bit later. What's I can it's so funny because I can hear your preferences coming out. And it's not just the JP, right? Like you're talking a lot about SN right now. That whole ideation, abstract, being able to get into the creative, that's like up in we I shorthand that is like up in the clouds. And I do, I do really well up in the clouds, right? And we our primary industry that we work in, two things are true uh in in in uh the construction industry. One, it's an S world, it's it's a details, like in the weeds, like they're built, right? Like for the most part, we and I would say they're largely lobsided rooms. Like if I have part if I have 14 participants in a room, it's most common to have 10 or more S.

SPEAKER_03 57:05

Okay.

SPEAKER_00 57:06

And I mean, I was in a room two weeks ago, I was 16 people with 16 S's. Wow. There were yeah. And they were also all T's. So right? So that's that's one.

SPEAKER_04 57:18

That that sorry.

SPEAKER_00 57:20

We love you all.

SPEAKER_04 57:22

Sorry.

SPEAKER_00 57:24

Uh so I I I think that's gonna be super fun to pull back into these conversations. So what we do in in all four of the dimensions before we show them the report, right, is we have them stand up in the room and we kind of just pick two camps. We say, just go stand where you think you belong based on what we've described, right? And then they go stand there and then we let them we have some exercises that we have them do and create some conversations around it. So let's just walk through them and we'll talk about them together. Okay. So, like the first one, EI, and we go, you know, so and they they usually know pretty well. Uh uh, and the exercise we have them do in their EI groups is um plan a weekend. And we say, we say plan a weekend, and the company's front in the bill. So you can go wherever you want, you can do whatever you want, but this is the group you're traveling with, right? So it's either a group of extroverts or it's a group of introverts, and we say, This is the group you're traveling with. Where are you going? What are you gonna do? Um, think talk about meals, talk about expectations of each other, like sleeping arrangements, right? And we usually give them five to ten minutes to to play with that, to play with that exercise. What do you think they come up with?

SPEAKER_02 58:34

Uh we I'll tell you where we're going.

SPEAKER_00 58:37

We usually I usually have the introverted group share out first. What do you think they they typically come up with?

SPEAKER_02 58:42

Going to the mountains.

SPEAKER_00 58:43

It's always almost always the mountains.

SPEAKER_02 58:46

Cozy blankets, coffee, books, yeah. Maybe some board games, outdoor activities.

SPEAKER_00 58:54

Yep, expectations of each other.

SPEAKER_02 58:56

No. No, no.

SPEAKER_00 58:59

I'm like, what are your expectations? No. And that's that's pretty standard. They're like, come if you want, uh, you don't have to do you don't have to do anything. You're like, you don't have to talk. They'll usually say that. Like, we you don't have to talk, like you know, definitely sleeping separate, like own rooms, like the it's just very their their preferences start to come out in that, right? Where do you think the the e-groups go?

SPEAKER_01 59:22

Oh man, anywhere, Vegas, Vegas, yes. Uh-huh.

SPEAKER_00 59:27

Yeah, Vegas is usually up on the near the top of the list. I've said the company fronts the bill, so some of them are like, Duby. And like, you know, they get like, I'm like, it's a weekend. You're gonna be traveling the whole time. They're teleporting, apparently. Um, but yeah, there's usually a ton of you know, activity. They're doing everything together, meals together. Sometimes it's an open room. You know, it's um, and then this is this is really funny. I always I go back to the introverted group and I'm like, um, Brianna, at the last minute, Laura has a friend that she would like to bring on this trip. Uh, what do you think about that?

SPEAKER_02 1:00:04

To the mountain trip? Is she an extrovert?

SPEAKER_00 1:00:08

It's it's almost always who's the friend? Yeah, like what? What do you mean? Like, uh, or flat out, no. Like it'll be like, oh, she has a friend, right? No. Like, this is our crew. This is what we agreed to, right? And then there's usually, you know, Patrick, hey, at the last minute, you know, Chris has a buddy and wants to bring with him. What do you think? Heck yeah. The more the merrier, right? Like it's just, and so it's just a silly little exercise to kind of help bring those preferences to life a little bit. And it's the first one, it's always the first dimension we work through. And then we say, this is this is the real conversation we need to have. So I say, huddle back up. And this is what we really need to talk about. What is the impact on a team if we are considering just this EI preference? And we're talking about getting all voices heard. We're talking about making a decision or executing. Um, you know, if we're talking about just like how do we communicate with each other? And then our most important question in each dimension is how do you honor the other type? Like, and so I say, like, as you huddle up here, you you, those of you who prefer introversion, think about what are those, what do those extroverts need from you? And and as you huddle up over here, extroverts, think about like what do those introverts need from you when you're thinking about the impact on a team. And I think I can I can help layer in some of the things that they they come up with. Yeah, I think given this conversation, it's all it's also fun to say, what's the impact in a family? So when you're considering an EI preference specifically, you're talking about making decisions, yeah, figuring out what you're gonna do, or you're talking about getting all voices heard. What's the impact? What do you see? What do you notice?

SPEAKER_02 1:01:51

Well, in our family, I notice that not everybody will always speak up for what they want. Um and so what I've noticed, uh maybe dad being the one that gravitates towards extroversion, it might be a good time when not everybody is speaking up for him to maybe pull somebody to somebody to the side, the one that's maybe a little bit more quiet. Hey, what's going on? What are you feeling? You want to tell tell me about that? Just, you know, trying to get them to open up a bit more. I've found that that's been helpful.

SPEAKER_04 1:02:26

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 1:02:26

An introversion and the person that gravitates towards introversion, they want to feel that they can speak up without the the other person just climbing all over their words and and pushing their thoughts down.

SPEAKER_00 1:02:39

Yeah, which is not all that different than the impact on a team. So it pretty quickly gets to this. This is the conversation that ends up happening, right? Um, let's just say you're in a meeting setting. Yeah. Because that comes up a lot at work, right? Or and and I have them in a meeting setting. Yeah. Like there are 14 of them sitting there, right? And a question is asked. I said, and those of us, and again, I'm tapping my chest, those of us who prefer extroversion, we're ready. Yeah. We're we speak, we talk, we answer the question. Introverts, what story do you start to write as soon as that happens? Would you be willing to advocate for them in this moment? Like what are some of the stories you think those who prefer introversion start to write in their head when you're in a you're in a group setting, you're in a meeting setting, and it's like we start yapping.

SPEAKER_02 1:03:28

Yeah, uh, maybe that you don't want to hear from the whole group. Maybe my opinion really isn't that important. Doesn't matter.

SPEAKER_00 1:03:35

Um about my opinion or level of thought that I've put into it.

SPEAKER_02 1:03:44

I don't know. Maybe that you're too much.

SPEAKER_00 1:03:46

Uh-huh. So in the room, in the room, they'll come up with this. Here we go again.

SPEAKER_02 1:03:50

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 1:03:51

Man, they love hearing the sound of their own voice. Yeah. Do they even think about their answer? Like, do like, do they even think about they will also like they don't even care. Like they just, they're just talking to talk. I hear all of that. Everything that you just got to. And so it's super interesting because we did not prep for this. Right. It's like that's almost what you're saying cup happens in the family for sure happens on a team in the boardroom, right? That's what, and so here's what I say. I say, team, those of us who prefer extroversion, we got to move our voice further down the line. Especially if we hold a position of power. Yeah. Right. If we're as a family talking about what we want to do, hey, team, like, hey, fam, like we're gonna figure out like what we want to do tonight. Here's what I'm thinking. This is what I want to do. Guess what the entire family is gonna do?

SPEAKER_02 1:04:39

Yeah, okay. Sounds good.

SPEAKER_00 1:04:41

Cool. I'm not gonna hear any voice, right? Because I hold that position of power. They heard from me first. Yeah. So I'm better off saying, hey fam, super curious what everyone wants to do tonight. Like, I'd love to collect. I have some thoughts, but I'm gonna share last. Hmm. Declared my intent. Now I want to be in excavation mode. And sometimes I gotta look at two of our kids and go, shut it down. Because they're like me.

SPEAKER_02 1:05:06

Yeah, they're like sitting on the edge of the couch, me, me, me.

SPEAKER_00 1:05:09

Yeah, it's so funny. Like, uh, you know, I I can I usually name a lot of things when we cover personality. It's like, like, I can tell when you all want to say something, right? Like, uh someone else is sharing something in the room, or I'm up here talking, and you're just like, and like guess what? Your entire body is telling me you're not listening.

SPEAKER_03 1:05:29

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 1:05:30

And they don't realize that. We don't realize that. That's as those of us who prefer extroversion, right? It's like, I just want it's like the puppy idea. Um, okay, and we have to flip the room. So then we go, okay. Also, yeah, let's say a question is asked, and there's that painful silence, right? Extroverts, what story are you writing about those who prefer introversion? This one usually comes up a little faster. They don't care.

SPEAKER_02 1:06:01

I was gonna say, do you care?

SPEAKER_00 1:06:02

Yep. They don't care. They're disengaged. They're not paying attention. Right. Like, and so, and you see their faces in the room going, what? Um, and so in need in either scenario or in both scenario, that's not what we want. Like, we want to be able to honor each other. So, like, what what do we need from that other side? Hey, those introverts need us extroverts to move our voice a little further down the line. I say, let silence do some heavy lifting, right? I'm comfortable with an awkward silence. Like, let it sit just a little bit longer. And introverts, let me give you two magical words. What are they?

SPEAKER_02 1:06:41

I'm not sure.

SPEAKER_00 1:06:42

I'm processing.

SPEAKER_02 1:06:43

I'm processing. Yes. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 1:06:46

Right?

SPEAKER_02 1:06:46

Yeah, I've used that quite a bit actually. I'm processing. So you know that I'm I'm present. I heard you. I am what's the word working on it? Like maybe thinking. Yeah. Processing. Processing. Yeah. But I'm here. I'm here in it. I'm in the conversation. I'm not somewhere else.

SPEAKER_00 1:07:07

I'm participating.

SPEAKER_02 1:07:08

Just yet. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 1:07:10

Yeah. I tell participants it's kind of a way to claim your space. So you you mitigate that story of like they don't care, they're disengaged, you're not paying you. Like, hey, like, thank you for that. Um, I probably do have a thought. Let me see if I can cook that up a little bit longer. So I'm not ready to share it yet. Yeah. Um, so I'm processing. Yeah. And you know, then I've learned like uh Chris Free is also, he is an ISFJ. So we are complete opposites all the way down, right? I also know if I want Chris's opinion on something or Brianna to weigh in on something, they're not gonna be able to respond immediately. You got something you want to ask me, I'm I'm ready. Like I'll I'm I don't know how you do it. We'll talk through it, right? Um, they want time to process. So I know if we're gonna be meeting and there's things that I'm gonna want them to have a decision on, I'm gonna send them ahead of time. Hey, I want you to read through this. We can talk about it when we get together, right? Or hey, I would love to get your input and thought on this thing. Um, here it is. Let me know when you can get back to me, right? Trying to give them those time containers and and honor their preference for that processing time. Um, so that's I think those are some important components of even just that EI preference.

SPEAKER_02 1:08:20

Yeah. Well, in marriage, if we're debating or having a conversation and he brings something up, and I really need to process something. If I sit there in silence, what is it conveying? She doesn't care. She's not hearing me.

SPEAKER_00 1:08:36

But she's gotten really good at saying, okay, thank you for that. Let me process that. And cool. Then then I'm not sitting over there writing stories in that window of like, oh, how long are you gonna process this? You know, like um, so it's it's been good as far as like finding that language and dance together in that what's coming up, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 1:08:56

Do you ever feel like you freeze in that moment? Oh yeah, yeah. What helps you get out of that unfrozen? Like, how how do you get unfrozen from that?

SPEAKER_02 1:09:06

Knowing that I can take the time to process. And sometimes in a in a conversation between the two of us, I will need to stop away step away, maybe move my body, do something completely different so that I can unfreeze and unlock whatever I have going on in my brain and come back to it. Do you ever get that way?

SPEAKER_01 1:09:29

Oh, a hundred percent. Yeah. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 1:09:31

And then I you get in your head, and then it's just so much worse. I'm not even thinking about what I'm supposed to be thinking about. I'm thinking, oh my gosh, you just froze and so much anxiety at that point.

SPEAKER_01 1:09:43

Yeah, I call it, we call it the spiral. Yeah. It's a spiraling down, you know, because it's a it's a I freeze in not able to say the right words in the right time. Um and then I start thinking about that. I'm like, well, now I'm not saying anything. Now I'm making this moment awkward. Now what is that person thinking? Because right, because we're feelers and we're, you know, that's how we process, I think. Um and so I was just curious about what tools help you get out of that. For me, it's been a lot of that. It's like, uh, I'm processing, I need some time to, you know, like I'm definitely in this. This matters, this is important to me. I just need a little bit of time.

SPEAKER_02 1:10:21

Yeah, a hundred percent.

SPEAKER_01 1:10:24

That was great. Love it.

SPEAKER_02 1:10:26

I feel you.

SPEAKER_00 1:10:27

I feel you. Uh okay, let's go through the same thing on the SN. So uh sensors tend to want that information in the details, call them in the weeds, people if we're overgeneralizing, right? Intuitors want that abstract concept, you know, big picture idea in the clouds, people. Um, so this is one of those where you approach things kind of opposite, you know, as you're as you're taking in that information. What do we do? How do what's the impact on a team or the impact in a family if you're talking about um innovation or problem solving, right? If uh, and again, what is needed to to honor that that opposite type? Um, I can tell you some of the things that come up, you know, often in the room with people, which is uh, well, if you're too far in the weeds, you might miss the big picture, right? And if you're too much in the big picture, you might miss some of the details. Um in the construction world, this can come up often like just from uh like a design aspect into the the project management side of things. So, like sometimes, you know, you can talk about well, how's that go with like the architect's drawing and then pulling that over here? It's like, you don't know how to build this thing, right? And they're like, Well, you're you don't know how to be imaginative and blah, blah, blah. Um, so those are some of the differences. What uh what comes up for you in this dimension of like details versus big picture?

SPEAKER_02 1:11:53

Well, honestly, what's coming up for me is um, you know, when you come to me and want to talk about something, and you'll be big picture. And I'm over here, like, okay, how are you gonna make this work? What's involved? What are the details? And you're just like, can you just stay up here with me? And so we call it we call it snorkeling or scuba diving.

SPEAKER_00 1:12:18

We call it snorkeling or scuba diving.

SPEAKER_02 1:12:20

So we staying above water.

SPEAKER_00 1:12:22

Are we just snorkeling? We just having a surface level conversation here. This would be that'd be more like big picture, yeah, abstract. That's a snorkel.

SPEAKER_02 1:12:29

Or can we go scuba diving?

SPEAKER_00 1:12:31

Just your hand. Can we scuba?

SPEAKER_02 1:12:34

Let's like really figure this out, get some details, see if this is going to be yeah.

SPEAKER_00 1:12:39

We'll also shorthand that with wow and how. So because I prefer intuition in, right? A lot of people are like, why is it in and not I? I'm like, well, the I was claimed, an introvert. Yeah, right. So the in the the big picture abstract idea, I tend to be an ideator. I and I also have, if you are familiar with Gallup's Clifton Strands, I have ideation in my top five. So it does come up a lot. And if I'm coming to Brianna with an idea, and the first thing she says is, How are you gonna make that work? Yeah. Just like takes all the wind out of myself. Right. So I have a responsibility to declare some intent. Hey, this is just an idea. Can you just wow this with me? I'm not looking to how it. I'm not looking to execute this idea right now. Like, I just wanna, I just want to share it. I'm also a verbal processor, right? So uh when I do that, she does a phenomenal job of like, cool, let's how it or let's wow it. Let's just stay and wow.

SPEAKER_03 1:13:41

Super cool idea.

SPEAKER_00 1:13:42

If I don't declare intent, oftentimes she will say, Hey, you're sharing an idea. Do you want me to just wow with you? Or is this like, should I how this? What where where are we? Right. And that's a good check-in. She's she's actually coaching me into declaring my intent when she asks that question, right? Because what she could do is be like, Hey, you didn't tell me. Are we wowing or howing? Like, and she could get pissed off about it. Um, but it it it that that conversation, we've gotten a lot of reps at that. Uh, a lot of reps at that. Anything else come up for you?

SPEAKER_02 1:14:18

Uh no, I'm just thankful that we have language to talk about it because that would kind of get us stuck sometimes.

SPEAKER_00 1:14:23

Yeah. I I getting the scuba snorkel and the wow how for us has been super valuable. Yeah. Um, and I share that in every room I'm in. And um, I joke, like as a facilitator, kind of one of the ways you know things are going well is if people are grabbing their pen and writing stuff down. And I'd say, like, pens are moving when I share how versus wow, snoop, uh, snorkel versus scuba. Right. Um, people tend to really like that language. And then look, if we're talking about our brain's preference for taking in information, this is just a great area to be willing to ask the question, what am I missing? Right. I am going to take information in big picture. You, Chris, are gonna take that information in in the details, in the week, I'm really it's gonna be a good benefit of mine if I go to one of them and say, What am I missing? Me and you, we're not gonna be able to help each other on that because we're both intuitors, big picture, abstract idea. That's that's why you put us in this room with a whiteboard for three hours and say, Where'd they go? You know, disappear. Um, so we we need that other side, we need that other preference to help us see some things that that we might not be able to see. Right.

SPEAKER_02 1:15:37

Yeah, and also remembering that there's no negative intent when your other person wants the details.

SPEAKER_04 1:15:47

You know?

SPEAKER_02 1:15:48

It's it's I'm thinking I'm being super curious and like, hey, tell me more, tell me more. And then I I need to be reminded, no, hey, I just wanted to get the idea out there.

SPEAKER_00 1:15:58

I did not want to, I don't really want you to crush my dreams by starting to talk all the details and well, yes, and you're an amazing thought partner when I do take a lot of those ideas and want to move them into execution, right? I mean, Laura's in the same boat, she's an S also. And so oftentimes our team members will just be looking. I mean, I've I have white, you all see the office, I have white papers with ideas all over them. And then you all patiently wait for me to say, okay, I'm ready to start moving this one ahead. And then and then you're amazing thought partners for what that looks like in execution. Yeah. Right. And I see things that you don't see. So our willingness to ask each other, what am I missing? Right. Because I will have a tendency to miss those details, and you might have a tendency to miss that that bigger picture. That can come up in parenting.

SPEAKER_03 1:16:48

Yeah. Yeah, it does.

SPEAKER_01 1:16:51

100% in marriages and everywhere. Like when you were speaking about that, like how you were you have that clarity and awareness of when Josh wants that wow. Like and you have that awareness of yourself of like, oh, hold on. Like, does he want me to be in the wow or in the how? I think that's one of the biggest, biggest like life-changing moments for me and my wife, where like, you know, because I used to get super discouraged anytime I came up with an idea and she, you know, she's in the details. She's like, hold on, but how are we gonna do this? And I'm like, I haven't even, I don't know, I don't care. Like at this point, I just want the idea to flourish and to come out of my mouth and just, you know, speak into it. And so uh, but now that we we started doing that, like I it's changed a lot for conversations now into just more productive, more um, because then I I'm I when I come to her for that is because I know that she she's an executor and so she knows the hows. So I'm like, I just just hear me out and then we'll get to that. Right. And I'm okay with you even like taking for the most part, like taking lead on that because you have that's your strength. Uh, so anyways, I think that clarity and awareness, I think, is huge.

SPEAKER_02 1:18:01

Yes, and it can work really well together for sure.

SPEAKER_00 1:18:04

So it comes up with Chris and I when we do curriculum development. So we'll be working on you know a slide deck, and I'm sitting there, I'm like, okay, so you know, this is what we want out of today's session, and this is kind of where I want to like move them in the conversation. And Chris is like, great, what goes on this slide? Like, what are we putting right here? Right. And and or or he'll be kind of like dialed in on a slide, and like, and I'm like, I don't know how this, this, what we're putting here like integrates into like the larger overall experience, you know, and so it's like sometimes those can be those can be challenging combos, it can it can feel a little painful, we can get a little stuck. And at the end of the day, we need both of those perspectives. Like, I need that fine eye of his on the details of that specific slide, and he needs my you know, stewarding of the larger, bigger picture experience. And so it's just yeah, this is usually the first preview of different is better, right? We want to have these different preferences. I mean, I've had I've joked, I've had people in the room go, so would it just be better to get all of the same personality types like on our team?

SPEAKER_03 1:19:14

I don't think so.

SPEAKER_00 1:19:15

I mean, no, man, no, like in a hoping by the end of this, you're in agreement with me that no, yeah, right? Because you, and that's the whole idea of wanting like a diverse team, a well-rounded team, like all you know, it's it's you better together and to have both of these perspectives represented.

SPEAKER_03 1:19:33

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 1:19:33

And and yeah, and love it. We should like name our show that maybe.

SPEAKER_03 1:19:40

That's a great idea.

SPEAKER_00 1:19:41

That's a good idea. Oh, hear her wowing? How's that gonna work?

SPEAKER_01 1:19:47

It does make me wonder a little bit on those rooms or those teams where there's no diversity. Like, what happens to those teams if there is a lot of, you know, same type, like I mean, even in that room where you had all S's and all T's, like could you foresee almost like a pattern of something's about to happen if we don't get any if we don't if we don't have that mix?

SPEAKER_00 1:20:12

Uh we're moving into T T and F. And I will say that that particular group, someone in the room named, realized and named. Whoa, geez, if there's a decision to make, this group should not be making it.

SPEAKER_04 1:20:24

Right.

SPEAKER_00 1:20:24

And that was like live time real awareness that I think was great. Um on the the sensing and intuiting side, they typically do get to some awareness of oh, like we really do need that other side. And there's it's just very often there's not many of them. And so, you know, one of my encouragements is if that's true, then you you probably want to know who has those other preferences, which would require what. And someone will usually get to like, we're gonna know people, yeah. And so it points us right back to connection, which is, you know, obviously I'm preaching to my choir. Uh, that like that's a primary focus of ours is creating that relational connection. And so even just understanding someone's personality type, like being curious about that and wanting to come to at a connection point and have that conversation about I don't really know too much about your personality preferences. Have you ever taken an MBTI assessment? Right. Leadership series participants all know that they're doing it together. Um, but often it'll come up like, can I get my can I get this for my team for the people that I'm working with? I want to know this information, and we absolutely want to help facilitate that and and get that information accessible.

SPEAKER_02 1:21:40

And for spouses.

SPEAKER_00 1:21:42

We, yeah, so we open that door up as well for spouses. Uh we're super passionate about marriages. So yeah, when we're in leadership series rooms, if anyone, and it did, it it comes up often, but it'd be really cool if my wife had this. I'm like, send us an email, we'll we'll make it happen. Um, and and so yeah, I'll just share, I'll share this. Um, and and then podcast listeners can have this available to you. So our Lighthouse Institute's cost from the Myers Briggs for a step two interpretive report is $65. So if there's anyone who's listening that wants that deeper dive step two interpretive report, and you shoot me an email, we'll make that available to you for $65. And same, that's what we do for any leadership series participants. We say spouse or significant other or child, anyone in your life that would that you have a relationship with that it would have the potential to help strengthen that relationship, we'll give it to you at our cost. We're we're happy to make that available.

SPEAKER_03 1:22:37

That's a great tool.

SPEAKER_00 1:22:38

Super cool tool. And we're gonna talk more about how we've how we've used it for ourselves. Um thinking feeling.

SPEAKER_03 1:22:44

What's maybe my favorite?

SPEAKER_00 1:22:46

Really? Let's talk more about the the impact on a team or family um when you're when you're looking at this thinking-feeling dimension. Oh, I didn't share the exercise we do for uh sensing intuitors. It's a it's an image we put up on the screen and and we tell them to describe what they see. And it's uh it's funny. Like you get the S or S's describing like the hot like details. Like there's a couple kissing, there's a shooting star, there's a you know, a reflection of a mountain. Like it's just very details. And then the end, my favorite N answer was uh love is in the air. I'm like, what? And then the next two would be like, it looks like a dream. Okay, looks like Avatar, right? And it's like, oh, and so those are very N answers. Um, the exercise we do for TNF, uh, we have them huddle up based on their preference, and we say, Hey, there's been an economic downturn, and you you have to reduce company overhead by like 20%. Um, and you are the team making the decision. So huddle up, figure out how you're gonna approach this decision. And we don't give them a ton of time. I I usually have to like pull them and go, like, hey, you're not actually doing this. Okay, like let's you know, don't fight about it. Just how'd you approach it? Right. Um, and the thinkers usually approach with like, who was the last person hired, or you know, who's not cutting it? And how do we just like it's a logical, very like, let's let's get it done, let's make this happen. And the feelers almost always take a how do we not impact people approach, you know, like who's got families, kids, yeah. Is there software we can cut? Can we limit travel? Can everyone take a small pay reduction? So interesting. Yeah. I had a I had a thinking group get really upset about that proposal. It's just it's just interesting to see where everyone lands on it. Yeah. Right. So there's just two completely different approaches. Um, but you're talking about decision making, and in in the organizations we're in, um, there's a lot of people in their organizations, and there tend to not be a lot of people who make decisions based on the impact on people.

SPEAKER_03 1:24:59

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 1:25:00

So it's pretty interesting. Um, we say, what's the impact on a team if you're talking about making decisions, uh, resolving conflict, you know, getting voices heard, that kind of a thing. What do you all think comes up?

SPEAKER_02 1:25:14

Uh I mean, I think there's a lot when he comes to feeling and thinking. When you were giving those examples, um, like Patrick over here thinking, well, who has families? They need to be taken care of. Yeah, feelings are important. And I know, I know you thinkers have them. You're just thinking differently than we are.

SPEAKER_00 1:25:37

Yeah. One of the things we say is, and when it's usually when they're separated, right? So it's like thinkers on this side, and I'll say, Hey, over here, and and that is me. I'll say, Hey, over here, we want one standard for everybody. And over here, they will break rules for human beings. Look at you too. Yeah, preach. Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 1:26:00

I love that.

SPEAKER_00 1:26:02

And it's like, that's that's you know, you all hear one standard for everyone. You you shudder a little bit, right? And it's like we hear break rules for human beings, and it's like, oh, we shudder a little bit. So what do we do? Because we've got decisions to make, a lot of them. And a lot of them impact people. And we might over-index so hard on our compass, compassion, empathy, harmony, right? That we we miss something that really makes sense. Or we might over-index so hard on our rationale and our logic and our fairness that we we really miss some impact on people. Yeah. So what do we do?

SPEAKER_02 1:26:38

Uh well, I'm thinking you're gonna tell us, but I'm also wondering is this where you might be hard on a process, soft on the people?

SPEAKER_00 1:26:46

Oh, look at her pulling up a lighthouse institute, teaching principle. I think that's a yeah, I think that's a fair placement for that. Sure, you always want to be kind of hard on your process, soft on your people. That typically is brought up when we're talking about an undesirable outcome has occurred, right? Something's gone wrong. And we're coming in to say, we a lot of people come in and say, who messed up?

SPEAKER_04 1:27:11

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 1:27:11

And we want to shift that question to what happened, and let's be hard on the process, soft on the person, or critical of the process, curious with the person. Um this is more in that idea of like, we're making a decision. Yeah. Uh what do we do? Or any thoughts, Patrick?

SPEAKER_01 1:27:30

I'd like to say that it should be a balance of both. Um, which it's kind of I think it's hard because on the thinker side, it if you come up with, say, a law, you can't really have a wishy washy law. It's either black or it's white. It's either don't run the red light or right. Yeah. Um, and so you can't really be like, well, if you're in a hurry and you know gotta go. To the hospital, sure, run the red light. Um so yeah, I I like to think that there's there's a room for both room for both. Room on the room.

SPEAKER_00 1:28:10

Yeah. Room on the room. Don't decide alone.

SPEAKER_02 1:28:13

Yeah. Well I'm over here thinking, okay, if you've got a leader who's either a thinker or a feeler, hopefully there's somebody he can go to that is the op I'm saying he, but could be she that uh sees things differently, the opposite, and gotta come up to with something together.

SPEAKER_00 1:28:30

What am I missing? Isn't them and that's the same question you put in that the dimension before, because it's our brain process. And if our brain process is going to naturally gravitate to one side of that or the other, let me pull in the other side. So if I'm taking in information, I'm gonna come find someone who prefers sensing and say, what am I missing? Are you seeing something I'm not? Right. And if I have a significant decision to make, I am for sure going to go find someone who prefers feeling and can help me think through some of the impact on people. It's really hard. It's really hard for me to say to you, as the leader of an organization and a father of three girls, that in my decision making, I am going to have a tendency to steamroll people. And if I have that awareness, then my action can be when I have a significant decision to make, ask the question, what am I missing? Yeah. What do you see in here? Here's kind of what I'm thinking. Run this out with me.

SPEAKER_02 1:29:31

Yeah. Right. And I will be sure to let you know how everyone's feeling about it and what the negative impact can be.

SPEAKER_00 1:29:37

Right. Have you thought about this? This you know, this will impact this way. Right. So I just think that's a really important component is being willing to say, what am I missing?

SPEAKER_04 1:29:46

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 1:29:46

And that makes so much sense too, especially in a marriage, because we complement each other. And that's the goal is to not just see things from your perspective, is to, you know, look at like you said, you know, what am I missing? What are you seeing from where you're standing that I might not be able to see? Right. Like, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 1:30:03

And so as you're talking, what's coming up for me is like, okay, well, not every marriage is going to have two people that have opposite preferences. Right. So you may very well be in a relationship or in a marriage where you both prefer feeling and you might make your decisions based together, based on this empathy, compassion, harmony idea, right? Which means it it might be beneficial to have a third party, you know, a trusted friend, uh, a counselor, a coach, uh, you know, someone outside of that you could both go to that you know can offer you that, that other side, just to have that conversation, right? Same with uh sensing and intuition. Like maybe you're maybe you're both detail people and you might need, you know, someone to be able to layer in some of that that bigger picture for you. So I just think as you were saying that, I'm like, oh well, not everyone's gonna have it right immediately available to them with their partner. And so that might that might require looking at some more extended relationships. Yeah, absolutely. All right, so should we get into the fourth and final dimension?

SPEAKER_02 1:31:08

Let's do it.

SPEAKER_00 1:31:09

How we interact with the external world, the judging, the perceiving. Uh, this one the prompt is super simple. It's how might this create conflict and how should we communicate deadlines with the other the other side? How do we honor the other type? Um, I'll I'm just gonna tell you all that pretty quickly in the room, uh, those who prefer judging get to the idea of give them a fake deadline. Like, you know, if it's due on if it's due on the 30th, tell them it's due on the 25th. Um, you tend to you kind of we've already talked about you have your preference is slight. So you've come out as someone who prefers judging before, someone who's prefers perceiving. I do think you're pressure prompted, which can sometimes get us in trouble because we're both pressure prompted. Um, what do you think is the impact on the P group when the J's say, let's give them a fake deadline? What do you think they they get to?

SPEAKER_02 1:32:07

Well, if they know about it, I feel like, do you trust me to get this done?

SPEAKER_00 1:32:13

Wildly offensive. Yeah. They're like, that would be such a huge trust withdrawal. Like it would, I mean, they threaten high levels of pestivity. Yeah. Love that word. That's my made-up word. Um, yeah. They so so I basically say, don't do that. Like if I'm short on time in that session, I will just I'll save them having the conversation, but just don't do that. Like, have have a better conversation than come up with a fake deadline.

SPEAKER_03 1:32:40

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 1:32:41

Um, so what do we do knowing that this dimension has the potential to really create some conflict? How do we talk about deadlines? Like, what what's needed here? Do you guys think?

SPEAKER_02 1:32:51

Conversation. Ask some questions, get some clarity.

SPEAKER_01 1:32:57

Yeah, understand. Sorry, guys.

SPEAKER_02 1:32:59

No, um just if the person gets the job done on time, why are we bugging them?

SPEAKER_01 1:33:07

Yeah, understanding, understanding how the other side operates and what the expectations are. Um, and like Breeze said, if if they have competence, if they are able to meet the deadline, then why why mess with their system? Why mess with the way that they're getting to the finish line? Um, and like you said earlier, if the issue is that they're not getting to the finish line, then that's a different system.

SPEAKER_00 1:33:32

That's totally that's something else. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 1:33:34

But if they how to get there, it's they have a different system than yours. And as long as it's not affecting anybody else or your system, then let them go in the way that they want to go.

SPEAKER_00 1:33:46

Yeah. I do think communication is absolutely key and being able to ask good questions.

SPEAKER_04 1:33:51

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 1:33:52

Uh so oftentimes the J group will say something like, Well, okay, so we'll just, you know, we'll give them the deadline of the 30th, but we'll tell them we want to check in on the 15th. And then usually someone on the peace side will be like, for what?

unknown 1:34:06

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 1:34:07

Like, well, what do you want to see on the 15th? And I'm like, as cheeky as you're being right now, that's actually the right question. Right. It's okay. And that's that's not uncommon. It's like, hey, there's something going on. I want to have a check-in. As a as someone who knows that they are pressure prompted and is very clear in that preference, these are the kinds of questions I'm asking. When's the latest I can give it to you?

SPEAKER_04 1:34:28

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 1:34:29

Is this actually the deadline? Right. And if there's a check-in, what do you expect to see? Is it going to be okay to show up to that check-in and verbally tell you everything I've been thinking about? Or do you need to see something on paper? Right. Like, so we need to know those things. I always encourage those with Jays to just come at it through the lens of ownership. Like, hey, uh, I tend to be a bit of like a micromanager. I really like things like super regimented. I tend to start early and you know, finish early, and I don't know exactly how you work. Here's how I'm thinking about approaching this. You know, and we sit down to check in. Here's maybe what I'm thinking, and and really just create as much of that agreement as possible on the front end.

SPEAKER_02 1:35:11

Yeah. Does that work for you?

SPEAKER_00 1:35:14

So I think ultimately what it comes back to is really needing that understanding of each other and realizing where those preferences are and and figuring out individually in the relationship, how do I honor the other type with a preference? I think this is one of those ones that's harder to think about honoring the other type in the macro. Uh, and it really comes down to the micro of how do we maintain that connection? What's needed? What are we dealing with right now? Uh, it's funny because, like, as two people who have, you know, are pressure prompted, uh, we are very meticulous about hitting our deadlines professionally.

SPEAKER_02 1:35:50

And we sometimes struggle meeting meeting deadlines personally, like showing up on time or yeah, I could I'll show up on time to um whatever sport the kid has or appointments or classes that I'm taking. But have you ever seen me show up at 9 a.m. for a staff meeting? It's always 9 01, 9 02.

SPEAKER_00 1:36:17

Yeah. Which in some regard, if we go back to the earlier statement, we would say, well, that's not a personality preference at play. That's a boundary issue, time at you know, all those things. Absolutely. Which is true. But it's just an interesting fact I know to be true about us, right? That, you know, on the personal side, we can tend to let that let that go a little further.

SPEAKER_01 1:36:36

So wait, tell tell me more a little bit about that. Like, so in the professional world, you're meeting those deadlines. And then in the is it in the family, in the air?

SPEAKER_00 1:36:46

We've never been late for facilitation. Ever. It was never going to happen, right? Like a hundred percent, I can tell you it will never happen.

SPEAKER_02 1:36:53

But if we say we're leaving at 10 30 a.m.

SPEAKER_00 1:36:56

to go to your house at 5 p.m. for dinner, uh-huh, we'll be there at 5 10. Interesting. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 1:37:02

We're leaving at 10 30 to go play pickleball, we're leaving at like 11.

SPEAKER_01 1:37:06

Why why do you think there's that difference? I don't know.

SPEAKER_02 1:37:10

I don't know. If you could help us figure that out, that'd be helpful.

SPEAKER_01 1:37:14

I mean, do you think it's because you both have different personalities and therefore uh I don't know, or do you think it's like I think the stakes are low and the stakes are high in in other environments for us?

SPEAKER_00 1:37:27

And so I think we just naturally kind of downshift our level of, you know, seriousness, intensity, commitment, and and so that the stakes end up being lower. And it's like do the girls really need an hour to warm up for their softball game? Or can, you know, is 50 minutes gonna be okay?

SPEAKER_01 1:37:45

Yeah. I mean, I I do think there's a level of in all of this that we're talking of of balance and of room for just allowing yourself to have that decompression, you know. Like, I mean, even if in your brain, like your brain is not directly attached to your cranium. Like there is room in there for wiggle, right? And so I would say that if you are, say, an extrovert, right? If we go back to stage one, the first dimension, um, if you're an extrovert and you only operate in that world, in that energy level the whole time, you're gonna crash eventually. You're gonna burn. Like you can't just be a hundred percent an extrovert, right? And so maybe in the same way, if you're operating with like this standard of like, yeah, we're never gonna be late to a session, we're never gonna be late to this. We're, you know, like the things that matter that, you know, like I mean, everything matters if you were to go that way, but the things that have the higher stake, you're not gonna compromise on that. Like you're gonna be at the airport at the time that you need to be at the airport, you're gonna not miss that flight. But other things, so like, yeah, we're gonna go play pickleball. Like, it's fine, it's okay. So you gotta have that flexibility, yes.

SPEAKER_00 1:38:53

All right, so that essentially covers the all the MBTI dimensions. We I think everyone should have a pretty deep understanding of the different aspects of personality. Uh, I want to talk about a couple of the resources that the step two interpretive report specifically offers, which we encourage participants to use. We call them the resource pages 9, 11, 12, and it's about applying your step two results to communication, to managing change and navigating conflict. So anyone who's, you know, just tackling that free version 16personalities.com, this is not gonna be available as part of that report. Um, but the step two interpretive report that we provide does have it. And I have found them to be extremely valuable. Uh, so if you go to like page nine, it's gonna say applying your results to communication. There's three columns. It's gonna show you your facet result inside communication, you know, how you communicate. Um, the middle column is gonna actually describe that facet. It's gonna kind of give you a sample of how you communicate. And then the third column is gonna say how to enhance your style, your communication style. And we encourage participants to use that page to have a, we call it an MBTI feedback conversation with people around them. Um, and I always give two examples in the room. I give an example of using page nine, which is communication, and I give an example of using page 12, which is they call it managing conflict. We prefer navigating conflict because you don't manage conflict, you just navigate it. Um, and I use personal examples in both, which both relate to you.

SPEAKER_03 1:40:35

Oh, yeah. Let's hear it.

SPEAKER_00 1:40:37

So on page nine, uh, and typically again, I'm in this particular facet comes out of the thinking feeling dimension, uh, which a lot of people in rooms I'm in share that thinking preference. So uh my facet result is tough. The two uh the two sides of that are either tough or tender. So some people will have tender down there on the bottom in their communication, that's Brianna. Other people will have tough, that's me. And then some people will have both. It'll say tough, tender, mid-zone, how you communicate, right? So my my communication description is you embody the phrase, let's get on with it. And in, and and the enhancement is recognize that your way of moving forward may not be right for the situation. Okay, great. There's there's a bunch of them. There's all your facet results on this page. So the way we encourage setting up the conversation is take that page, sit down with someone and say, You're important to me, and I would like to work on my communication with you. I'm in this leadership development class, I'm working on growing as a human. I am telling her, let me out of the box. Whatever box you've put me in, whatever predetermined story you have for me, let me break free from that. I'm I'm trying, I'm working to grow, right? On this page, you're gonna see my communication style and ways that I could enhance it. I would love for you to pick one area on this page. I'm sure you'd like to pick all of them, lovely wife, but please just pick the one that you think would give you the most impact if I were to improve in that area. I hand that page over and I shut up. I let her read it. Now it took her about four seconds to find that that facet tough. She said this one. And I mean it was fast. She's, you know, boom, right here. My job is to say thank you. If I were to improve in this area, how would you know? What would you see me doing? What would you hear me saying? And that's really important because if I just do my version of enhancing the style, which says, well, recognize your way of moving forward may not be right for the situation. Okay, I'll recognize that. I'm gonna recognize that back through the lens of my own preferences, my extraversion, my intuition, my thinking, and my perceiving. I I need more help than that, right? So if I were to improve in this area, how would you know? What would you see me doing? What would you hear me saying? And this was I don't know, it's probably like eight to ten years ago when we first did this. And Brianna said, Well, we have three daughters. And anytime any of them get hurt, you go running up to them and you say, Take a deep breath. You're gonna be okay. And my ego starts going off, right? My ego's like, that sounds like phenomenal parenting. I don't know what right, and so I have to shut the ego down, stay quiet. And she says, But Brinley is super sensitive. And so first, she just needs a hug. She just needs you to roll up and give her a hug. Daddy's here. Then you can tell her to take a deep breath. And I would not have gotten there on my own, straight up. Like it was it's a four-second adjustment for me. And in reality, when I made that adjustment, I actually didn't have to say anything to Brindley. I just roll up, hey, daddy's here. I got you. I give her a hug, and in the hug, I start taking the deep breath. And what does she do? She mirrors. So she starts taking the deep breath with me. I would have never gotten that on my own, right? I needed Brianna's wisdom in her sensing, being in the details and her feeling and understanding and understanding Brindley and and then the courage that she had to give me that feedback. So I had to ask that question in order to get there. We highly, highly encourage participants to use those pages to have those kinds of conversations where you can get that level of feedback. But you have to ask that question behind the question.

SPEAKER_04 1:44:49

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 1:44:49

If I were to improve in this area, how would you know? What would you see me doing? What would you hear me saying? What are you, what comes up for you with that story, or what have you noticed?

SPEAKER_02 1:44:58

Well, I think more specifically yes, it takes a lot of courage for somebody to say, Hey, here's the list, pick something out, let's talk about it. Um it feels really good on the receiving end to have that asked. And because maybe you do see some things and you're not sure, like, how do I approach this? But now you're giving me the opportunity, you're opening up the dialogue to be able to say, Yes, I'm noticing this. And then you're asking further questions so that I can then say I would see you behaving in this certain way. I would hear you, whatever it may be. And that that's a really good feeling. Really good. And it again takes a lot of courage for the person to come forward and say, Hey, what would you like to see different?

SPEAKER_00 1:45:56

Well, and I would say back though, it requires a lot of courage from you to be able to say, I'd like to see this go different. Right. And so not often being able to see those conversations happen. I'm in the room encouraging people to go have those conversations. They're usually pretty bought into that idea because they're in this leadership development course, they're their company's making a pretty significant investment. They're like, Yeah, I want to grow. What I will hear on the backside, my wife didn't want to say anything. And I'm like, mmm, so what's there, right? That and what I find is usually there is there's there's suspicion around the intent. And so what we we have to, and it's it's delicate, right? It's like, hey, like if you attempted to, and and it starts early. We we assign a plus delta, you know, for them to go do a plus delta exercise with someone personally and professionally, to have this MBTI conversation, to, you know, go seek out feedback in their 360 survey. There's a there's there's a lot. And so it's like, hey, if you made an attempt at this and you didn't get a lot in return, and there are people maybe felt fearful to engage or nervous, right? Like, you might just have more work to do in declaring that intent. And you might have to acknowledge if you've had fingerprints on creating an environment in the past where that hasn't been okay or that hasn't been welcomed. It might even sound something like, hey, I know that you've given me feedback in the past and I have not responded well. Right. And it's really, it is really important to me that I'm able to grow and I need your help in order. I can't get better at this stuff without your perspective. And so I'm gonna do everything I can to quiet my ego, to shut up, to, to sit here and just and listen. Yeah. You might see some things on my face, or you know, you might like, I just think some people have to go a layer deeper in that setup if it's if it's really foreign, right? If you're like, I've never asked my significant other for for feedback. There's gonna need to be some some conversation there, right? There's there's there could be a longer setup to that. And then that does come up. I I hear that a lot, actually.

SPEAKER_04 1:48:17

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 1:48:17

And and not just in a perf uh personal container, professional container, also. Right. I tried to ask my team for feedback, they wouldn't give me anything. I'm like, what do you think that what do you think that's signaling? You know, they're have you created that environment before? Can they trust the environment? Like you, this isn't gonna be a one and done type thing. Yeah. What com what's coming up?

SPEAKER_01 1:48:38

Oh man, to me, this is one of the most valuable, you know, parts of the series of you know, having that introspect, that looking inside of you of like, man, what, you know, like what can I enhance in my in the way that I'm showing up to the world? And then, you know, taking that next step and bringing it over to, you know, a coworker, somebody in your team, or, you know, your spouse, and bringing it over and then trying to do something together to enhance both of that relationships. Um, I think it's so powerful. Um, and then coming from the other side, like right now, you were uh the way that you were um showing us this picture, you know, is coming from somebody that maybe is more authoritarian or more overtaking in the relationship, but also from the other side, right? Like somebody that might never that might be maybe fearful, or maybe fear is not the word, but like just more meek, maybe in that like I don't know if I want to ask for feedback. I don't know what that is on the other side of that, but having the courage to say, hey, maybe I'm not have not been doing it the right way, or you know, this is not this is not working out for us, obviously. And so what can we do? How how can what what would I do that would show for you that I'm doing this right, that that I'm making that change? And so that those those three questions are so powerful. Like we I I I I the first time I heard him actually I've heard him from Bree um in some of our three sixties. Um and man, I wrote it down and I wrote it down in capitals, and I'm like, this is so powerful, and I use it in every single one of those classes or those sorry, those sessions that I do. And so um yeah.

SPEAKER_02 1:50:17

It's super powerful. When I would sit down and do the three sixties with people, they'd get their pens out at the end when we were talking about asking for feedback. And I you know, I learned it from you. If I were to do this, what would you hear me saying? What would you see me doing? And they're always getting their pens out, writing that down. Powerful.

SPEAKER_00 1:50:38

Which and and what you're talking about, Patrick, is more of like a precursor mindset to engaging into these conversations. The that feedback is a gift, right? That um it's kind of it's we talked about it when we talked about setting up the 360. That we we fundamentally have to believe we have blind spots. We we fundamentally have to believe that other people around us can see things we might not be able to see. We have to start there. Like it's really hard to identify any blind spots if we insist we don't have any. Yeah, right. And so you talked about maybe having a driver, we're starting to have those conversations, right? Like I took Bralin on a couple driving excursions, and it's like, okay, these are blind spots. This means you can't use your mirrors to see these spots. You have to physically move your head to go look at that little blind spot over there, right? And in life, as we go through just our daily functions of all the places, there's just things we literally cannot see. We can't move our head to that position to see it. And so we have to be willing to empower people around us to say, Hey, I see something here, right? And so that's that's first and foremost in in what you're saying. And then asking those deeper questions, the follow-up questions, to to get that uh the the actual it's really behavior. What we're talking about, see you doing, hear you saying is how we get to the behavior that this person wants out of me. Right. So the other one that I use in the room as an example is specifically around conflict. And you actually kind of mentioned it earlier. I don't remember the exact you were talking about needing a break in in conversation. And so on my page 12 that says applying my step two results to conflict, says, I think it's also tough. I think it's this, I think it's the same facet. There was a theme that day when you were picking for me. Uh, and it says, you push to resolve the conflict immediately. That's what it says about me. Um, which is true. Yeah, you push to resolve the conflict immediately. And then the enhancement says, Recognize that delays in implementation may be conducive to your goal. She says, mm-hmm. And I'm like, what does that mean? Right. Like, I'm like, if I go do my version of that, again, I'm gonna get stuck in that same cycle of my own preferences. So I had to sit down. Same thing. Hey, I love you. I I want us to continue growing in our relationship. I've just taken she didn't have the MBTI when I did this. I had, you know, just done it myself. I'd gone through the certification, I'm doing all this. I just passed that one page over and say, This tells you how I navigate conflict. I want you to pick one area that would be really impactful to you if I were to grow in that area. She picked that one pretty quickly, right? And I said, Tell me more. If I were to improve in this, how would you know? What would you see me doing? Hear me saying, and in the room, I tell people, I'm like, she says, every time that we're our conversations start to get, you know, contentious or heated, and like, I need a break, you freak out. And I'm like, Yeah, I hear Ross and Rachel, like we're on a break. And like, you know, I get a couple chuckles. It's I'm getting old, and so like not as many people watch Friends. Yeah, it's not landing as like it used to. Um, but you know, that was their thing. We were on a break. And it's like, I don't, I don't want to break up. Like, are we getting divorced? What's happening? And she's like, I need five minutes. Like, I need to take, I need a drink of water. I need to, you know, she said, move her body or get some perspective. And and I used to just stew and and spin out, and I'd be it, I would just think the worst, and you know, and she'd come back and I'd I'd be worse off for the conversation than beforehand. And so then I wouldn't want her to leave the break, or I wouldn't want her to leave the combo to take the break. And that conversation for me at least unlocked a lot. And it was, no, I just need a time container, you know, so she can she can now tell me, hey, I I would love a break from this conversation. Can we revisit it tonight after the girls go to bed? Can we pick this up tomorrow? You know, can whatever it might be. Like you want to take that ball and run with it? Anything that comes up for you?

SPEAKER_02 1:54:57

Well, I know for me in conflict, sometimes I need the break just because I know if I take the break, I will calm down personally and I won't be as angry. So I think it's beneficial to Josh if I take some time. Then it's like I process and I start thinking about all the ways we got there and maybe my what I my involvement in it, and instead of at the very beginning, I want a finger point. So taking a break sometimes is also my chance to evaluate the situation and come off of the heat.

SPEAKER_00 1:55:34

Which makes so much, so much sense, especially when we talk comfort zone, learning zone, danger zone, and we talk about the idea of dot B, stop, take a breath, power the pause, get some reflection, get some perspective, right? But my mode is to go harder into that conflict, which is is gonna come up in a second when I talk about type dynamics, right? And so getting that break is very valuable. Talking it out together and how that shows up for me versus how that shows up for her gave us more language and more ability to navigate it without getting further apart during that break. Would you agree?

SPEAKER_02 1:56:14

Yeah, absolutely.

SPEAKER_00 1:56:15

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 1:56:17

Yeah, no, I'm I'm with you on that. I am in on the same um camp as Brie that I need that break sometimes. I need that pause. And oftentimes my stubbornness maybe wants me to keep going, and I'm doing a disservice to the other person because I am not showing up in the way that I should be showing up or in the way that I want to show up. And so um it recognizing that it takes also some awareness. Um and saying, even saying, like, I think I need a break, it's so hard sometimes to say. But if you know the value behind it, what it actually does to that conflict, it it's it's worth it. So yeah, it's good.

SPEAKER_02 1:56:55

It's kind of like when you get mad at your kid and you're angry and you're like, okay, no phone for a month, and then you take an hour and you're like, oh, the thing that they just did kind of made sense. It wasn't okay, but I get where they got there. We're just taking your phone away for a few days.

SPEAKER_00 1:57:11

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 1:57:12

Just sometimes you need time to process.

SPEAKER_00 1:57:14

Or you're talking about regulation. Yeah, yeah, like we need to regulate, yeah, not try to make rational decisions when we're deregulated.

SPEAKER_02 1:57:22

That's a whole nother topic.

SPEAKER_00 1:57:24

So we need to regulate, then rationalize, which actually is a kind of is a good segue into the type dynamics idea. I just mentioned comfort zone, learning zone, danger zone. In type dynamics, which um in the step two interpretive report would be page 13 of the report. Um, you're gonna see a blue diamond and it's gonna talk about your brain processes and your the in order of preference, and it talks about uh basically what your brain works through in stress. Um, and I would love for our participants that are listening to be able to capture their their label for making their way. Myers Briggs calls it in the grip. In the grip would be if you're living in stress, it'd be very similar to the danger zone. You'd say learning's off, curiosity's off, you're you're not in a good place. You're you're you're it they call it your least preferred brain process, which is a nice way of saying your brain's worst process, right? So on that, on that blue diamond up at the top, it's gonna say one best. This is your number one, your best when your brain's at its best, it's in this process. For me, it's intuition and it's extroverted, right? So extroverted intuition, that's whiteboard, ideation. Um, you know, talking to someone else about Patrick's eyes are getting massive right now. Right. Um, and then my number two is thinking. That's my next best. And but that's introverted when I got a decision and I'm and I'm thinking about it. I'm very much in my head, right? Brianna will be like, where'd you go? Uh um, and then uh my third is feeling. And when I down get down at third, it's the bottom of the blue diamond. I I call this on tilt. This is first signs of stress. This isn't really where you want to be, right? But then you make your way around to your fourth process, least preferred, my worst process is sensing. And it's opposite of my number one, right? So because I lead with intuition, big picture, when I make my way all the way around to sensing, that would be in the grip, right? My label, what I what people will likely see or hear, or I will see here experience, the label is obsessed with small details. So when I'm in the grip, that's you know, and it's good for her to know that, good for me to know that. Like if I'm obsessing over small details, I am not at my best. And so the shorthand for me is get back to my other made-up word, which is positential, right? Half possibility, half potential. Like get back to positential. That's gonna pull me back to my number one. So anyone who leads with intuition, if you have N up at the top as one and you have S over S4, that's going your label is obsessed with small details, right? The opposite would be someone who leads with sensing. Sensing's their number one. That's again in the weeds, it's in the details, right? And they're gonna make their way around to intuition. That's gonna be in the grip. Someone whose S is focused on the details, now they've drawn things together. The label for S to N is catastrophizing, which means, well, now not just this thing sucks, that sucks, this sucks, my life sucks, my work sucks. I light it all on fire, I'm catastrophizing everything.

SPEAKER_02 2:00:32

Does that remind you of someone?

SPEAKER_00 2:00:34

Yeah, a little bit, but that's actually not yours. Um the other two, someone who leads with thinking, right? Logical reason, um, fairness, they make their way around to feeling in number four. The label for that in the grip behavior would be loss of emotional control, right? And in the four, in the last one, the the least preferred or the worst brain process, there's gonna be a little I or a little e, which will tell us if somebody extroverts or introverts that energy. Right. So if I if I extrovert my obsess with small details, she's gonna hear about it. If I introvert my obsess with small details, it's gonna be this internal narrative and voice, right? Um, for those who go from thinking to feeling, their loss of emotional control could be extroverted out on people, or it could be like a bubbling volcano. Right. Same with the catastrophizing idea. The final one, this is yours. When you lead with feeling, when feeling's your number one, you're thinking about people, harmony, empathy, compassion. Make your way around the number four, which is thinking the in the grip behavior is overly critical snide remarks. So if overly critical snide remarks are coming from someone who normally leads with feeling, that's your sign you're in stress, you're in the grip. It's time to get back around.

SPEAKER_04 2:02:03

Right.

SPEAKER_00 2:02:03

So I tell people page 13 can be a cheat code if you just reverse those arrows and work your way back around to your brain's preferred process.

SPEAKER_02 2:02:13

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 2:02:14

So MBTI is a very deep dive. Like I said, it's a 17-page report. We spend an entire session on it in the leadership series, five of our 65 hours. I think it's an incredible resource. I revisit mine very often. We revisit ours together. Um, I think understanding personality has given us a lot of tools and language to enhance our marriage, our parenting, everything in between. Agree, disagree?

SPEAKER_02 2:02:44

I agree 100%. Super important. Marriage, parenting, your relationships with your your family and your friends. Uh you know, you might have a negative feeling or a negative story in your head about someone, and then you kind of start to understand their style, and then like, oh, okay, makes sense why maybe I haven't heard from them. They need a moment.

SPEAKER_00 2:03:10

Yeah. They're processing.

SPEAKER_02 2:03:11

They're processing.

SPEAKER_00 2:03:13

Uh awesome. Well, we're getting close to letting you go for today, uh, with awareness that this will need to be the first of several, if not if not many.

SPEAKER_03 2:03:23

Okay.

SPEAKER_00 2:03:24

Um, but I'm curious, just as you know, we're hitting 21 years of marriage. Uh a lot of people would say, what's the secret? Or what would be kind of your advice? Um, any thoughts on the secret to marriage getting to this point? Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 2:03:41

You know, I love to bake, so I think it's a good recipe of lots of ingredients. I wouldn't say there's one there's not just one ingredient. Uh first and foremost, I would say grace, forgiveness. Because we're human and I make mistakes. You make mistakes. And if I want forgiveness when I screw up, um, I'm gonna give that.

SPEAKER_00 2:04:10

That's funny. We didn't we didn't talk about this. Um, but I would say if there's one if there's a secret ingredient to relational longevity, I would say it's forgiveness.

SPEAKER_03 2:04:21

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 2:04:21

Yeah. I would say there's no I don't know that there's any relationship, friendship, romantic relationship, business relationship that can that can have longevity without without forgiveness. Yeah without grace.

SPEAKER_02 2:04:33

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 2:04:34

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 2:04:34

Agreed.

SPEAKER_00 2:04:35

I'd fully agree. And then I think like it just makes sense for us to share the song lyric that we share every time we are invited to a wedding. Um Brianna and I have a song. Our song is by Maroon Five. What song is it?

SPEAKER_02 2:04:53

Could you be loved?

SPEAKER_00 2:04:54

Oh, you're close.

SPEAKER_02 2:04:55

I'm so close. Yeah, she will be loved. She will be loved. No, oh, I mixed it up with Bob Marley.

SPEAKER_00 2:05:02

She's like some Bob Marley. Yeah. She will be loved by Maroon Five. Yep. And what is our favorite line that we like to share in every wedding card or when they have you sign the frame or any of those things? Like it's our go-to.

SPEAKER_02 2:05:14

Yeah. It's not always rainbows and butterflies, but compromise that moves us along.

SPEAKER_00 2:05:19

Yeah. You want to sing it for us?

unknown 2:05:21

No, thank you.

SPEAKER_00 2:05:22

Yeah. It's not always rainbows and butterflies, it's compromise that moves us along. And I just think about, you know, a team, a relationship, a marriage. It's like, you have your way, I have my way. And we're always trying to find that third way, that that third path forward, as Chris Fela calls it. And that ultimately is compromise. I don't often get all the things that I want or need, and you don't often get all the things that you want or need, but we find that third path forward. And I think a lot of that's at play in this conversation we just had about personality differences and preferences. And, you know, we we set it up like we need each other, we need the other side, we need those perspectives. Um, and I think ultimately, if people can just have in their head that it's compromise, it's gonna move us forward. Um, not in compromising values or beliefs and things like that, but in in navigating the relationship and finding that that third path, I think it's super important.

SPEAKER_03 2:06:18

Agreed.

SPEAKER_00 2:06:19

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 2:06:21

Thank you.

SPEAKER_01 2:06:22

Thank you. Yeah, thank you. What a treat for me to be sandwiched between two Donovan today. Uh was incredible for me. So thank you, Bree, so much for coming.

SPEAKER_03 2:06:30

Pleasure. Thanks for having me.

SPEAKER_00 2:06:32

All right. Well, as always, hopefully you enjoyed that episode, episode five with Brianna talking all things personality. Um, one of the things that we have been asking you for on these outros is your feedback on the episodes, on the show itself, on how we might be able to improve. One of the things that we've heard come through at the at this point, we have today, episode four released. We're recording this June 15th. And because of our schedule and cadence, the way that we're recording, editing, publishing, pushing out, the episodes are coming out, you know, two to three months after we record them. And then we have some in the bank, we have this little inventory of episodes that we're we're working through. So as we're collecting and hearing some feedback, we want you to know it's going to take a little bit for you to see that uh come to fruition in the episodes. So one of the things we've heard recently is that people might want to know a little bit more about you and me. Yeah. I think they want to know more about you, actually, is what I think.

SPEAKER_01 2:07:31

I think it's more about you, honestly.

SPEAKER_00 2:07:35

Um, and so for today, today is also a recording day for Patrick and I. And we're gonna we're recording an episode that will come out in September. It's gonna be episode nine. And our intention for that is to take a little bit of a deeper dive into our personal stories and journeys that that led us to this point. And so just know we're listening. Uh, we want to keep hearing the things that you want to know and hear, and then we will work to incorporate that into what we're doing here. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 2:08:00

Totally, absolutely. And and if there is something that you want to hear the answer for, like immediately. I mean, we are on social media, we are actively looking at those comments. So we will reply there if it's something that is just a quick reply. However, if there's some topics or something that you want more, you know, us to dive into, that's what, that's what we're talking about.

SPEAKER_00 2:08:19

So I love that. Yeah. And then just a reminder that the the next episode coming out July 15th is going to be round two of a conversation with Brianna, where we are able to take a bit of a deeper dive into some some more things that are not personality related. And you hear you see that? Every couldn't get away from the end. It's leadership in. Uh, July's essentially going to end up kind of being the month of Brianna at at Lighthouse Institute. She has two blog posts that are going to be coming out uh in connection with her podcast episodes that it's really interesting for me because it kind of follows a similar pattern as the podcast episodes did. The first blog post that she wrote, she just kind of scratched the surface and was keeping it kind of topic related. And she actually came back a couple weeks later and said, I didn't tell a lot of personal stories. I didn't take a deep enough dive into who I am. And then um, I will just tell you as a preview, the second blog post that she wrote um brought high emotion for me. Uh I had a hard time getting through it without actively emoting as I was reading it. Um I think it's gonna be a huge gift to the world. So I'm I'm excited to continue to watch Brianna step outside of her comfort zone, but then also see the benefits that it's bringing for for the people around her. So totally, yeah.