First Draft Pitfalls—5 Things for Writers to Watch for

You've done it — you've written a first draft! But before you send it out into the world, there are five common pitfalls that trip up nearly every new writer, and I've seen them time and time again while coaching my writing students. 

In this episode, The Tech Guy and I walk through each one: scenes that take place in a vacuum, too many characters, info dumping, a missing emotional arc, and stilted dialogue. 

These aren't things to be embarrassed about — they show up in every first draft, including mine. The goal is to know what to look for so your second pass can really make your story sing. Whether you're working on your first novel or you're a reader who's ever thought "wait, where are we right now?" — this one's for you. Tune in and let us know what you think!

🎉 Join me on Patreon for bonus content.

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Transcript

Welcome — What We're Covering Today

Ellie Alexander 0:05

Hello, hello, hello, and welcome to another episode of Reality Writes. I am author Ellie Alexander. This is the podcast where we talk about all things bookish, writer-ish, reader-ish. And uh I'm here with the tech guy, as always.

Tech Guy 0:20

Hello, hello, hello. Uh, what are we talking about today?

Ellie Alexander 0:25

Today we are gonna talk about five things that really trip up new writers, especially in a first draft.

Tech Guy 0:35

Oh, okay. So these are five things new writers should watch out for when they're creating the first draft of their book. Is this mystery specific or is this any this is pretty global, I would say.

Ellie Alexander 0:49

Okay. Um, and this is after you've written a first draft. So you you've finished a book.

Tech Guy 0:53

Okay.

Ellie Alexander 0:54

And now you're going through it and you're doing the first pass. Um, and

Why First Drafts Need Multiple Passes

Ellie Alexander 1:00

these are all things that I have had to learn over time myself and I've improved on, obviously, over the course of 15 years. And when I'm teaching and coaching writing students, I see these patterns time and time and again. And um I notice a lot of writers, you get so excited because you've finished a first draft, which is giant. It's monumental. Monumental. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, seriously, yeah.

Tech Guy 1:27

Yeah.

Ellie Alexander 1:27

You've written a book, like you should celebrate, you should do all the things. But what tends to happen is you then are just like, I gotta send it out in the world. Like it's ready. I finished a book. Go, go, go, go, go. And books and writing take time and they take distance. And you have to sort of step out of yourself and the story to be able to come back in and go, okay, that was great. I did it. Now we need to fix it. So these are five things that I see consistently time and time again when I'm coaching writers.

Tech Guy 2:01

Interesting. All right. Um I'm very curious to hear where these are because um this is like I I I would say that 99% of the time when it comes to episodes of Reality Writes, like we'll have a big discussion and plan out episodes and like really, you know, dive deep on topics. But when we get into these very writer-focused topics, I'm obviously a lay person. Like I don't know. I I've picked up a thing or two over the years, just you know, uh being with you, but um, but this is this is your show. So it's gonna be I'm gonna learn. So let's hit it.

The Reader & Writer Perspectives

Tech Guy 2:41

What's number one?

Ellie Alexander 2:41

Yeah, you're gonna um you're gonna learn, but also right before I get to number one, I I hope for the darlings out there that are readers, it'll be interesting for you too, because you might, as we're going through this list, pick up on books maybe that you've read that you're like, ooh, actually, yeah, I noticed this, or you know, things that might pull you out of a story, let's say. And also just to be aware of like all those layers that go into creating a finished book. It it's not usually that you I don't know any single writer that has finished a first draft and the book is done. Like it just doesn't happen.

Tech Guy 3:16

Yeah, I know totally. And and those are both very good points and and exactly where I'm coming from because I am not a writer. So I am very interested because I'm I'm as we go through these five things, I'm gonna be thinking about all the books I've read and trying to think, well, did I see any of that in any of those books? And then yes, the other piece, like being married to you and and seeing the progression of your writing over the years and everything, that is, I would say, the number one thing that readers don't understand or don't fully comprehend, I would say, because I I think a lot of people clearly know that like writing a book takes more than just writing that first draft and then putting it out in the world. But what they don't really fully comprehend is like the the revs of the book, right? Like the the the the layering, the editing, all of the things that go into it. And then then it goes to the publisher or an editor, and then it comes back and you do it all over again.

Ellie Alexander 4:16

Two or three times. Yeah. Yes, it's true.

Tech Guy 4:19

Yeah. Yeah. So this is uh definitely a peak behind the curtain as well. Yeah.

Ellie Alexander 4:25

Yeah. And if you're some if you're a darling that's new to writing or you're, you know, working on a first book or just getting started in the process, hopefully like you take a few notes on this, and it's something that will help you when you're going through your first draft, too.

Mistake #1 — Scenes That Take Place in a Vacuum

Tech Guy 4:40

Yeah.

Ellie Alexander 4:41

Okay. So without further ado, we will get to number one. I would say the number one thing that I see the most often is that scenes are taking place in a vacuum.

Tech Guy 4:55

Ooh, what does that mean?

Ellie Alexander 4:57

So you have characters and they're maybe talking to each other. Um, something's happening, but this scene could be taking place on Mars or it could be taking place in North Dakota. There's there's nothing else happening in the world around the story. And this tends to happen a lot with mystery writers because mysteries are plot-driven, right? So we're and when I teach, you know, I talk to writers all the time about the fact that, like, okay, we're starting with a body, and then we need suspects, and we need these twists and turns and red herrings. So that is all true. And that's important that you get down in your first draft. But as you're coming back to a manuscript with fresh eyes, then it's time to start thinking about like, oh, what is happening in the world around this story? It cannot take place in a vacuum because it's not a fun experience for a reader. Have you ever Yeah, go ahead.

Tech Guy 5:57

Oh, I was just gonna say, is that where the phrase set the scene comes from?

Ellie Alexander 6:02

Yeah, definitely. And that makes sense. You've had an experience. I know I've had an experience of reading even finished books where I'm like, wait, where are we? Like, whose POV are we in? Like, you know, like if if you're getting confused as a reader, that means I have not done my job correctly as a writer by creating that world that we are anchoring this story in.

Tech Guy 6:24

Yeah, I have had that happen. Uh names of the books aren't important, but um where in a book there are, let's say, like a l there's like a quick sequence of events happening, but they're taking place in different places. Right. You know, maybe the characters are moving through different, you know, let's say three different buildings, and the author, the author sees all of this in their head, but it doesn't make it down onto the page so that you you are reading and you're like, well, wait, but they were just up on the second floor and now the way now they're on the street. How did they get out on the street? Like, right, you know, you just and it takes you out of the story. It like it makes you stop and it's it's jarring. It really kind of yeah.

Ellie Alexander 7:15

And it's so fixable and one of those things that once you know it. So my advice when I'm coaching new writers is like, okay, now that you have that draft, as you're reading through it a second time, like make sure that you know and you're showing

Mistake #2 — Too Many Characters

Ellie Alexander 7:30

the reader where we are, you know. And if you're moving to a room, if we're suddenly outside in the cold, it needs to stay cold. Uh, you can't step outside and it's a hundred degrees when it was just negative two below, or you know, all of those things that are gonna drag you as the reader out of the story. Because that's a point when a lot of readers might just stop reading.

Tech Guy 7:51

Yeah. DNF.

Ellie Alexander 7:53

Oof. Could happen. I'm just saying.

Tech Guy 7:56

Yeah.

Ellie Alexander 7:56

Okay. So number one is scenes that are just happening in a vacuum.

Tech Guy 8:02

Okay.

Ellie Alexander 8:02

Number two, this is a big one. Too many characters.

Tech Guy 8:09

Oh. Oh, now this one I'm very familiar with.

Ellie Alexander 8:12

I'm speaking your language.

Tech Guy 8:15

Very familiar with. And you know, darling you know, and I'm not again, I'm not gonna say it, but you know that I read a book recently where this was a massive, massive problem, in my opinion. It was just like, not only were there too many characters, but they uh several of them had very similar names. And it was, I'd go pages thinking that the character was referring to another character, but then realizing, oh, wait, he's been talking about this other woman this whole time. And I'd just be like, oh yeah.

Ellie Alexander 8:50

Yeah. And again, this this kind of plays to the same um concept as, you know, having a scene that's happening in a vacuum where we don't know where we are in space and time and nothing is grounded in reality. And by reality, like even in a sci-fi or fictional world, you still have to know where you are where you are. That's why I'm saying, like, if it's Mars or some made-up planet or whatever. Um, the upside down, like you need to know where you are. Too many characters. You as the author might have a good sense of who all these characters are, but characters need to A, be able to engage and interact with each other. And especially in a mystery, this is unique to the mystery, more so than other genres, they also have to move the plot forward. So in a mystery, let's say if you have 17 suspects, no one is retaining all of those suspects. It's too much. And I think sometimes it's too much. I think sometimes it's a crutch for new writers because it's like, oh, okay, I'll I'll throw this person in because then they're also suspicious, but it doesn't work. And a lot of times what I see in a mystery is someone who comes in at the end, and we've seen this in shows that we watched. I know what you're gonna say to bring somebody in who we haven't met for let's say the book is 300 pages, and suddenly at page 279, you're introducing someone and they end up being the killer. No, absolutely not. Because in mystery, you darlings get the same opportunity to solve the book as the sleuth. So you have to play fair.

Tech Guy 10:26

Yeah, it's like it was the guy that changed his oil. And it's like, wait, what? Like, where did that guy come from? Yeah.

Ellie Alexander 10:34

Exactly. Yeah.

Tech Guy 10:35

Yeah.

Ellie Alexander 10:37

Yeah. And especially when you're um, if you're working on a series, I talk a lot about this in my course, and when I'm coaching students, you really need to do a slow build of the secondary cast of characters. Those characters are going to continue to grow and expand in time, but they don't all need to be in the first book. Um, and so really thinking about like, what are these characters doing to propel the story forward? How are they engaging with each other? How are how are they creating conflict and tension? Um, but not 47 characters in the novel. It's

Building a Secondary Cast in a Series

Ellie Alexander 11:11

too many.

Tech Guy 11:11

Right. Well, and they don't all need to be included in the first or introduced in the first book. And and is it fair to say then too, they don't all need to be in every subsequent book?

Ellie Alexander 11:24

Absolutely. Right. Yeah. Especially like if we think of Bake Shop, for example, because the Bake Shop has grown over time, of course. And so we'll all have multiple books where you might not see one of the secondary characters and then they find their way back in, just like, you know, maybe they're off on vacation or they're working at a different spot. Yeah.

Tech Guy 11:41

Yeah. Okay. Okay, that makes sense.

Mistake #3 — Info Dumping

Ellie Alexander 11:44

Number three. You can't see my hands if you were watching this, darling. Sorry. Uh number three is info dumping.

Tech Guy 11:53

Info dumping. Ooh. That sounds bad.

Ellie Alexander 11:57

It's bad. It's bad. It's easy to do. Um, and it's something that happens a lot when you're new to writing because you have all this information in your head about the character or the story or the idea, and you want to just sort of vomit it on the page to start. Um, so this is where, you know, instead of showing us, you're just telling us a lot. It's like, okay, this person is this and they're that and they're this, and la la la la la la la. And we're getting backstory about someone's second grandmother twice removed and what happened at her afternoon tea that has nothing to do with the current plot. Maybe that is essential later on to some other thing, but finding way ways to taper the information that you're sharing about a character, because that adds tension. If you've if you're peppering in these little Easter eggs early on, and then we're slowly learning. But if it's all front-loaded, it doesn't matter. And then we as the reader aren't going to be connected to this character because we don't really know them short of just kind of this word vomit on the page, for lack of a better word. Sorry.

Tech Guy 13:05

Right. Well, and if you learn every absolutely everything about a character in the first like 50 pages by page 250, there's no way you remember that. I mean, you know what, what would like be the primary cause for info dumping? Is it like a is it a word count thing? Like what like for including information that isn't relevant to the plot, for example, like you said second grandmother twice removed or whatever, or second cousin twice removed. Like what would what would cause that?

Ellie Alexander 13:40

I think because um, when you're first starting a novel, and this is something that I talk a lot about, you want to know more than you need to know about your character. But you need to know that it's the writer, the reader doesn't need to know everything up front. And so a lot of times the process is that you've created all of these backstories and arcs and connections, and you just lay them all out on the page for us, and then there's no mystery to it because we're seeing it all. Like play your cards a little bit closer to the chest, let those build.

Why Writers Over-Share Backstory

Tech Guy 14:14

Right, right. Okay. Yeah. Yeah. All right. So that's number three. What's number four?

Mistake #4 — No Emotional Arc for Your Character

Ellie Alexander 14:24

Number four is no emotional arc for your main character.

Tech Guy 14:31

Oh.

Ellie Alexander 14:32

Mm-hmm. So we wanna we wanna see ourselves on the page or we want to learn something about a character. We need to see a character grow and evolve and change and struggle. And um, especially in the mystery genre, one thing I see often with new writers is like, okay, so this horrific thing has happened. Your character has stumbled upon a dead body, and they're just immediately solving the crime. Well, wait a minute, hold up. Like, what is your emotional response to finding a dead body? I don't think you're just gonna be like, okay, it's me. I'm ready to go. Let me get my pen. Um, so making sure that you're building an authentic emotional arc throughout the story, not just in response to the to finding the body or, you know, suddenly being confronted by a killer and like fearful of your life, but also like what other things are going on in their world in their, are they, you know, looking for love? Are they in a breakup? Do they have family issues and resentments? You're not dumping this all at the beginning. This isn't the info dumping. You're taking all of that and you're layering it in as you go.

Tech Guy 15:52

That's so interesting. And and actually very timely because just the other night, and this I think is one way that illustrates where books are, you know, probably have an advantage over like TV or movies, in that, you know, TV or movies are constrained by time. But uh, we just had a discussion about this after we watched a mystery. Uh, I can't remember it as a BBC mystery or whatever. It's not important. But I said the something that is common in every crime show, in every mystery that we murder mystery that we watch is somebody is murdered, and then the investigator goes to that person's family or significant other and is like, we're sorry, this person's been murdered. And they're like, oh no. And then like cut to the next scene and they're like, okay. And they're just calm, cool, and collected, just providing all this information to the investigator, even trying to help solve the crime in some way. Like they're not collapsed on the on the floor in a pool of their own tears. Like they're just they're going about business as usual. So I imagine that's what you're talking about, right? It's like having a more realistic like arc in terms of like on the page. I feel like as a writer, you have uh more opportunity or more leeway to describe that and to take the reader through that um than TV and film producers do, because you know, you can only get so much done in a 60-minute uh uh mystery, which is usually 42 minutes to account for advertising.

Ellie Alexander 17:29

So

Authentic Emotional Response in Mystery Writing

Ellie Alexander 17:30

yeah, exactly. No, you've nailed it completely. And that's really what I think a lot of new writers don't see in their first draft, which is why when you're going back to it for a second or third time, being aware of these few things can really help where you're like, oh, wait, is my character responding to the fact that there's a dead body like in the middle of her bake shop? How would I feel? How would I respond? And it doesn't matter if the response doesn't match, you know, what readers might think. Maybe they have a completely bizarre reaction to it. Maybe they're happy, you know, like I don't know. Like it doesn't matter what the what the emotional reaction is, but there needs to be an emotional arc and a thread that goes throughout it. And then also, how does that continue? How do you follow that line through? You know, like, okay, halfway through the book, are they like feeling a little more um motivated and determined because they're personally invested now? And how is that rippling out to their other relationships? So making sure you have a clear sense of the emotional layer of the book is so important.

Tech Guy 18:39

Definitely. Yeah, yeah. That that that is uh very relatable. It hopefully they're not happy. Um, because be like another dead body? Yes.

Ellie Alexander 18:50

Yes, I don't know. Maybe they're the secret serial killer, we don't know.

Tech Guy 18:53

Like it could be little dexter action, yeah.

Ellie Alexander 18:57

A little dexter action, or they're baking something special in the pie. I don't know.

Tech Guy 19:01

Like well, could be, yeah, it could be, but at least it'd be there, even if they were happy. The arc would be there. Yeah, okay. Yeah.

Ellie Alexander 19:12

Or maybe they're furious and they're like, How dare you mess up my pristine kitchen? Yeah.

Tech Guy 19:18

Totally. Yeah. All right. Uh that was four. Well, that brings us to number five.

Ellie Alexander 19:24

Number

Mistake #5 — Stilted or Inauthentic Dialogue

Ellie Alexander 19:25

five. Last but certainly not least is stilted dialogue or dialogue that does not feel authentic.

Tech Guy 19:34

Oh, interesting.

Ellie Alexander 19:35

This one is it's a tough one for new writers, and it's something that um it took me a while and lots of practice and um lots of help from my mentor teachers back in the day to get right. First of all, dialogue also needs to move the story forward. In a book, we don't need, hi tech guy, how are you today? I'm fine. How are you? Oh, tech guy, hi. We don't one one crutch that I see a lot is using a character's name over and over. And sometimes like a first and a last name. Oh, I got you again. Yes, right.

Tech Guy 20:13

Yeah, yeah.

Ellie Alexander 20:14

Yeah, yeah.

Tech Guy 20:16

Definitely.

unknown 20:16

Yeah.

Tech Guy 20:17

I I think I just read you an example of a book I was reading where the character's name was used like seven times on the same page. And I was like, I know that it's Janice.

Ellie Alexander 20:27

Like, I just like it, it's Janice. Don't tell me again, right? And we don't talk like that in real life. Um I mean, maybe we do. I I don't tend to be like, and so um, so you're just as a writer, that's an area to improve because the reader's gonna pick up on that. Um, and also what are we learning from the dialogue? And dialogue, like going back to our first one where a scene just happens in a vacuum. Dialogue shouldn't happen in a vacuum either. We don't you can't see me, but like I'm pretending that I'm just like have my hands folded in front of me and I'm staring straight at the tech guy. We don't just talk back and forth at each other, right? This happens a lot in a first draft of writing. It's just like he said, she said, he said, she said, that's great for a first draft. In a second draft, what are the movements? What else is happening? Am I taking a sip of water? Am I fiddling with my earring? Like, what are those physical cues? What internal thoughts are we also having? Because even when you're saying something, I might be thinking something in my head as you're talking. Like, do I believe this guy? Is he telling me a lie right now? Like, is he the killer? You know, you need all of those additional layers in addition to whatever the character's saying. So they're saying one thing, but are they feeling something else internally? Are they acting strange?

Tech Guy 21:52

Interesting. That so, would would this also include characters you Using words or language that you it uh from based on what you know of them would be out of character.

When Characters Sound Like Someone Else (Including AI)

Ellie Alexander 22:08

Absolutely.

Tech Guy 22:09

Okay.

Ellie Alexander 22:09

Yes.

Tech Guy 22:10

I have a theory for why that's happening.

Ellie Alexander 22:13

Okay. Interesting.

Tech Guy 22:14

It's AI.

Ellie Alexander 22:15

Yeah, yeah.

Tech Guy 22:16

It's AI. No, I mean, I uh so this isn't this isn't book writing specific, but this happens in the corporate world. Um I'll get an email from you know a coworker, and it'll have like three words. I'm like, buddy, I've worked with you for seven years. You've never used those words once in your life. I don't I don't even think you could spell that word. Like, I know, like yes. I it just so it just and that takes you out of like it makes me angry when I read the message. When in reality, he maybe the coworker was just asking me to lunch or whatever, but it's like, would you like to dine with me later? Or I'm like, dine? What?

Ellie Alexander 22:55

Like no. Yeah. Yeah. And um, that's something that will come up with copy editors, for example. This is obviously later down in the process. But once you know, you have a book contract and you're you're working with the editorial staff at the publishing house, a copy editor might come and like want to correct your grammar in dialogue. But like Jules is never gonna say, for whom uh will I be doing blah, blah, blah. Right. I mean, that might be the proper way to say it. Right. But if we're having a real conversation with somebody, I'm gonna say, Who's coming tonight? Or, you know, whatever. Um so you need to make sure that your dialogue is authentic to the characters. One tripping point to this actually made me think of it when you were saying that, is um accents. They can get like a little goes a long way. You know, but if you're using somebody that's like talking like a country bumpkin and all of that dialogue is like that, that can get really taxing for the reader. So there are some interesting ways where you can maybe like pepper that in, um, but you're not having that be the main focus of the dialogue.

Tech Guy 24:06

So the character could have like a catchphrase that's in, you know, whatever um, you know, dialect or or you know, regional specific language that they're using, but then the rest of the time they're pretty much straight and straightforward, right?

Ellie Alexander 24:21

Yeah, exactly.

Tech Guy 24:22

Okay. Yeah, that makes sense.

Ellie Alexander 24:24

But yeah, and then dialogue should serve a purpose. You know, it could be an argument, it could be a reveal, it could be um, you know, so many interesting things, but it shouldn't be wasted on just talking about like, I am picking up the phone now to call so-and-so. Like you don't use dialogue in the same way that we would an everyday conversation, unless there's a purpose for that or the story.

Tech Guy 24:53

Right. Okay. So I am going to pick up the phone now and call your dad, is not the same as I'm calling your dad.

unknown 25:00

Right.

Tech Guy 25:01

Right? Okay. Exactly. Yeah. Because I would never, yeah.

Ellie Alexander 25:05

Do we need to know that you're calling my like is that central to the thought? Because if it isn't, I don't need to know that.

Tech Guy 25:11

Like I think that goes back to what is it, number three info dumping, right?

Ellie Alexander 25:16

Yeah, exactly. Yeah, yeah. You they all really tether together.

Tech Guy 25:20

It's kind of you know, I'm actually seeing that, yeah. Now that I think of it, they all they so uh recap them again. We had scenes in vacuums was number one.

Ellie Alexander 25:31

Number two was too many characters. Too many characters.

Tech Guy 25:36

Number two for two, yeah. Three is info dumping.

Ellie Alexander 25:39

Four is emotional arcs.

Tech Guy 25:41

Okay.

Ellie Alexander 25:42

And five is stilted inauthentic dialogue.

How All Five Mistakes Connect

Tech Guy 25:47

Okay. Wow, yeah. If you've got all five of those going on in your first draft, like it's gonna, it's gonna be a bit of work.

Ellie Alexander 25:55

You probably do have all five of those going on in your first draft, and that's okay. Like you should. The key now is to in your second and third and fourth draft, yeah, be aware and add those layers in. So don't beat yourself up for that. It's an awareness issue because then I think what happens is you get so excited, you're like, oh my gosh, I've written a book, it's done. It's probably not done. Um, it's gonna take a few more passes with having these things in mind to flesh it out to a point where it's ready for beta readers or an editor or whatever's next.

Final Thoughts — Every First Draft Has These

Tech Guy 26:29

So the goal is to not have these five things in the final draft.

Ellie Alexander 26:32

Exactly. Yes.

Tech Guy 26:34

Okay. Yes.

Ellie Alexander 26:35

These are common in every first draft. There's still things that I do in a first draft. You know, I don't have a lot of fluid movement around my dialogue in a first draft. It is a lot of like placeholders. He walked, they sat, blah, blah, blah. Now, because I've been writing for so long, I tend to flesh out more of my world as I go just because I've I've been in it for so long. It's easy to do. But I still use this list with every second and third pass that I take to go, okay, wait, is this happening in a vacuum? How is this character feeling right now? What are they concealing? What are, yeah.

Tech Guy 27:09

So And I imagine that takes some practice too, right? To understand that you have to really look at this from the, you know, the lens of a reader to understand what is what from a reader's perspective, where do they think this action is taking place right now? That's right because you know in your head, as the writer, because and and especially you, because I know how you write, like you're envisioning yourself in that place, sitting there watching this take place while you're writing it. That's right. So I imagine once you get to that point, it also might be difficult to not do that right to just assume that, well, everybody knows that I'm sitting here in tort next to Andy and Jules having this conversation in a booth by the window, right?

Ellie Alexander 28:00

Yeah, right. Yeah. I'm at tort. Where at tort? Are you downstairs? Are you in the kitchen? Are you by the fireplace? Yeah. So, like, yes, having that lens as you're going back through and really then being much more um aware and critical of your own space and time on the page.

Tech Guy 28:18

Yeah. That's good advice.

Ellie Alexander 28:20

Yeah. And for all you darlings out there, if you've read some books like this, which I think we all probably have, um, it's good insight for you to fix that for your own.

Tech Guy 28:33

Yeah. So that'd be a good question out there for the uh for the darlings listening. Like, have you run into these things in books? And we don't need to name titles. Like, let's not, let's not drag anybody through the mud here. Like it's just, but but it would be interesting to know, like, uh for the listeners out there, who like how many of these things have you encountered in books? Um, I I'm just curious because I know myself in going through these, and this list was surprising. You probably saw and heard my reaction to a few of them. Um, I I have myself encountered these in final drafts before. So some of them very recently. Um Yeah.

Ellie Alexander 29:09

And what are the things that then make you also as a reader go, oh no?

Tech Guy 29:15

Yeah, totally. Yeah. Let us know in the comments. Yeah.

Ellie Alexander 29:20

Absolutely. All right. Well, I hope that's helpful. And um, I guess that means it is until next time.

Tech Guy 29:28

Until next time, thanks for listening to another episode of Reality Rights.