The Barna Faith and Culture Report
The Barna Faith and Culture Report podcast explores the intersection of Christian faith and today’s rapidly changing culture, featuring the latest research insights alongside conversations with leading thinkers and practitioners. Each episode helps Christian leaders make sense of what’s happening and respond with clarity, wisdom, and practical action.
The Barna Faith and Culture Report
03 | Jo Saxton on Motherhood, Spiritual Formation & Discipleship in the In-Between
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In this episode, Ashley LaLonde sits down with pastor, author and leadership coach Jo Saxton to explore new Barna data on motherhood and spiritual formation — including why 53% of teenagers name their mom as their most trusted source for guidance on faith. Together, they unpack the everyday "in-between" moments where faith is formed, the difference between performing faith and living it, and what it means to be a faithful spiritual parent in a culture of eroded trust.
Welcome to the Barna Faith and Culture Report. My name is Ashley Lalande, and I'm here with my co-host David Kinneman, and we are so excited to dive into the stats with you. On today's episode, we have an awesome interview with Joe Saxton where we dive into motherhood, womanhood, and what to expect for the next generation of women. This is the Faith and Culture Report. Today's episode is brought to you by Glue, a core partner here at Barna. Their mission is simple: shape technology for good so leaders like you and I can have the tools we need and actually trust. Barna teamed up with Glue for our State of the Church research initiative, and we have put together a free resource for you called 10 Trends Shaping Faith, Culture, and the Future of the Church. Head on over to Barna.com slash 10trends to download it or find the link waiting for you in the show notes. David, what's up? How you doing?
SPEAKER_00Pretty good. How's it going, Ashley?
SPEAKER_01I'm great. I can't wait for this conversation with Joe.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, me too. She's one of my good buddies.
SPEAKER_01Oh, okay. Well, before we get into that and our one number, what's some good news you've heard lately?
SPEAKER_00Well, I had a really sweet time. Went to the uh mailbox last night and I had a friend visiting, and we walked by and picked up uh all my packages. Mostly it was just junk mail, but I had one special handwritten note from my mom. Oh it was a little a cute little card. It had a little picture of a mountain on it. And I love I love hiking and climbing. So she was so she was uh encouraging me and just just saying that she loves me, which was so sweet to get the handwritten note from my mom.
SPEAKER_01Mom?
SPEAKER_00Yeah.
SPEAKER_01Very sweet. Mama Kinneman.
SPEAKER_00Thanks, Marilyn. Thanks, mom.
SPEAKER_01Thanks, Marilyn. Uh, I I mean, my mom is one of my best friends, so I totally resonate. My mom and I are, you know, wanting to go for sushi together. We're actually planning a trip to Mallorca for her birthday this year, and it's just gonna be me and her getting to explore the mountains and the beaches and the Mediterranean cuisine.
SPEAKER_00Where is that? That's Spain.
SPEAKER_01Okay. Well, it's an island in the Mediterranean part of the country, Spain.
SPEAKER_00Wow.
SPEAKER_01So I'm super pumped for that. I mean, my mom is just the coolest. She goes to our church. My parents both do. We introduced them. You know, they weren't there first.
SPEAKER_00Wait, you introduced your parents to each other?
SPEAKER_01No. Yeah, yeah. Actually, when I was in the cosmos, just a thought in God's mind, I introduced my parents who are adorable high school sweethearts from Minneapolis. No, I wish. But it's funny now that my parents go to the same church as we do. You know, I have people coming up to me saying, Oh my gosh, your mom is so cool. She is more popular than I am. Um, but she's just been such a mama bear to so many of the younger women at my church. It's been so special to see.
SPEAKER_00So you introduced her to the church where she attends now.
SPEAKER_01Yes. Yes.
SPEAKER_00All right, sweet. Well, here's to moms.
SPEAKER_01Here's to moms. Well, that's perfect timing for what's our one number today?
SPEAKER_00So our number for today is 53. 53% of teenagers in our society say that mom is the most trusted source of guidance for faith and spirituality.
SPEAKER_01Oh, I mean, that's true for me. I can't I can imagine it. Well, well, I'm curious, what was your mom's role in your own faith?
SPEAKER_00Um well, my dad was a pastor, and my mom was a pastor's wife, and Gary and Marilyn um both are still my spiritual heroes. I was actually texting them right before the show. They want some help with some design features at their house. I love interior design and all that. So they're like, hey, can you help us figure out how to redesign this room? Um, so both of them are spiritual heroes. My dad was more of the upfront and public kind of like communicating about faith. Um, and my mom was much more of that kind of quiet, steady presence. But both of them love Jesus so much. And uh I just aspire to live the kind of faithful lives over a lifetime that they have had. So um I just think about their incredible gifts, their interest in people. They're they have the gift of gab. They love talking to people, they're so interested in others.
SPEAKER_01Like father like son?
SPEAKER_00Yeah, maybe so. Maybe so. Um, but their their uh their interest in others has been, I think, this propellant that have brought many people to know Jesus because they're just so curious and open and interested in others. And my mom, my mom has that, you know, capability of just being so kind and caring and interested in other stories.
SPEAKER_01Oh, that's beautiful. It's so interesting because in the data, for those listening, we we gave respondents several different options. But the top answer was moms for who is it, who do you go to for spiritual guidance? And mom's actually landed 16 percentage points above the Bible, 18 percentage points above dads, and 22 points above pastors. And so it's so fascinating that for not just for 53%, but so many people ranked mom as actually the most trusted, the most intimate, the most involved, the most formative. And I found that true for myself. My mom introduced me to Jesus, uh, you know, when I was just a toddler, and I remember it's one of my first earliest core memories is her telling me about God's love for me and us praying together. And of course, both of my parents are believers, but I always remember that little moment with my mom.
SPEAKER_00I think this is um you you've talked about the data, and it's um, you know, so you know, more than half of all teenagers say that their mom is their most shaping spiritual influence. And um, you know, dads are a distant third. Um, and it wasn't just like what person, because we also had things like the Bible or other kind of cultural influences or friends. Yeah. So moms are far and away the most shaping in the minds of teenagers in terms of spiritual formation. And uh I think that's really important because, like, listen, as you said, like dads are also very important.
SPEAKER_03Of course.
SPEAKER_00Um, but moms have this kind of emotional heartbeat that I think shapes so much of the spiritual imagination and the language and the kind of like how do we really practice this? So both moms and dads are critically important. Obviously, each family can be very different depending if there's a single family or if there's a bereavement or other things. But uh, for those listeners, if you're a mom or a grandmom, um, you know, you are uh one of the critical shapers of faith.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, spiritual heroes.
SPEAKER_00The numbers, the numbers back it up.
SPEAKER_01Well, I'm so excited to dive into our conversation around motherhood and womanhood and the next generation. So let's get into that interview with Joe. If you don't yet know Joe Saxton, she is a respected pastor, author, speaker, and leadership coach with a deep passion for helping women discover their purpose and lead with courage. Over the years, she's served in ministry, church planting, and nonprofit leadership. And today she is the executive director of the Leadership Institute at Bethel University. Joe is the author of several books, including Ready to Rise, More Than Enchanting, and The Dream of You. She also co-hosts the Lead Stories podcast and founded Acer Collective, which equips women and empowers women leaders around the world. Let's give it up for Joe. Joe, hello. Hi, how are you doing? Good. How are you doing? Doing good. It's lovely to talk with you. I'm excited. Oh, me too. Well, we're so honored to have you. Thank you for taking the time. And I'm really excited to share our one number with you for today. So, as listeners are getting to know, every episode we focus in on one particular statistic. And today, Joe, our one number is 53. 53% of teenagers say that their mom is their most trusted source for guidance on faith and spirituality. So that was the top answer out of several different options. Moms landed 16 points above the Bible, 18 points above dad's, and 22 points above pastors. So it was really quite interesting. It stood out. I'm curious, what's your initial reaction to that?
SPEAKER_02You know, I'm not surprised when I think of the kind of everyday grounding of life in terms of the medical appointments, in terms of the carpooling, in terms of just the in and outs of life and the organizational, like the management, whether that parent is working or not, it tends to be in the kind of sphere of women. And so I can I think of the amount of conversations that have happened in the car, the in the car journeys, or in the journey, in the in-between. And mothers spend a lot of time in the in-between.
SPEAKER_01Interesting. Yeah, that that transitional space tends to be the deeper conversational space. Huh. So I'm curious as someone who obviously has spent years, decades really thinking about faith, spiritual formation, motherhood, and raising up the next generation. Um, does it conflict with or confirm or add to the patterns that you're already seeing around spiritual formation in the household?
SPEAKER_02I mean, I think it it adds to the sense of urgency for me, actually, when I hear when I hear a stat like that, um, not of whether what people are doing right or wrong, I think it's I think what I love about that, about the 53 is that it just tells you what is. And and so, and if that's what is, how are we supporting investing in what is. If we and whether whether you are a mother by the traditional means, or because I was mothering um young leaders and young and young people long before I gave birth, years decade before I gave birth. I was already mothering in one way or another. I was already doing life in the in-between when I was doing youth when I was a volunteer in the youth ministry, when I was um a volunteer in my local church. And so it just makes me think, okay, if that's if that's the reality, there's a lot that's happening in the in-between. How are those people doing? How are how are the mothers doing? How are the spiritual parents doing in the middle of that? Um, and what's investing in them in the in the busyness and the kind of warp and weft of their lives, it makes me think, it reminds me again to not take for granted and not ignore the everyday ordinary moments. And that's where you want faith to grow. That's where you want the authenticity of the reality of a walk with Jesus to make sense in your everyday walk. That it yeah, it's and it's not to say I'm not a big fan of the events because I am and I love and and adore them all, but there's so much in there. How are you gonna work out that relational conflict? How are you gonna handle money? Um, what matters to you? How are you gonna handle disappointment? How are you gonna handle winning? How are you gonna handle losing? Um, what do you do with fear? What do you do with sadness and joy and and all of those pieces? And and so when I hear that number, I'm like, ooh, I hope we're we're ready. I hope we're prepared to be present. And I hope we're preparing our people to be present and thinking through what it means for us because you can't give out of what you don't have as well. So there's that to consider too.
SPEAKER_01Wow, there's so much there. I I love the importance of the ordinary moments because of course those of us in Christian leadership are very set on our events and our services and our retreats and the big worship nights, and those are important and they're good. But I think you're absolutely right that so much of the formation, especially in our youth, but even as we grow up, is happening in those day-to-day moments. That that car ride where you ask mom a question about, you know, mom, should I go for this or that? Or I didn't make the team or I didn't make the show, and and she gets to minister in those moments. And it's true for, as you said, every spiritual parent is that actually these ordinary moments are demonstrative of how it actually looks to walk day-to-day with Jesus. So I think that's that's so profound in the question of then are we equipping people to be ready to pour out of what they already have poured in, you know, versus pouring from an empty cup. Wow, thank you. That yeah, that has me percolating and also nostalgic for my mom and the times that she would take me around and it would just lead to these deep life conversations. Wow. I'm curious for you, why do you think that relational trust right now is outweighing traditional sources like scripture and church leadership, which of course are still, they still made it, you know, on the graph, but much, much lower. What do you think about that?
SPEAKER_02Um, I think I think trust has been eroded at institutional levels. And I think that's happened with every generation in a different way. I think if you ask those mothers, they would say trust has been eroded for different reasons. But I think every generation has had to look and think, do I trust this and why or why not? There's a lot that's more publicized now, uh, um, in terms of when when abuse comes to light, when challenges come to light, we or we see things which don't seem to connect with the reality of the Jesus. It's Jesus with one breath and something else with another. And and that, and that's not just off-putting, it's also distant. What does that mean for the depression I have right now? What does that mean for the grade? What does that mean for how I make a career choice? So I think that's part of it. That that that the distance thing can can say wonderful things, or there can be an erosion of trust there. I think in terms of scripture, I mean that one saddens me, to be honest, because um partly because I'm a lover of the Bible, but it's also like uh I know that there's an element of inner kind of there are lots of things telling us it's important to read. There are lots of things in terms of social media, in terms of AI, in terms of we're we're just hearing things all the time. And so our lifestyles, particularly in the West, our our lifestyles are so so on the move, I don't know that we know how to sit much anymore. I don't know if we know how to be. And again, if it feels I don't know if we've worked out always how to communicate that this ancient text is prescient, is relevant, is applicable here and now. It's gotta be more than slogans. It's got what again, what does this mean for your friendships? What does this mean for how you do life? How does this speak to your story? What's Jesus saying here? Who is this God? And so I I feel for I I feel in many ways the relational piece doesn't surprise me because we act as interpreters and translators of the text. We act as embodiment of that text, as living examples of someone who's kind of, well, they seem to know God, like God, still connect with God in the midst of their ordinary life. And so I need someone to just show me the way to go. Show me what it looks like to apply what scripture means in an everyday life. And so I think you need, and and in many ways that that to me gets to the heart of what discipleship is. You know, the word disciple in the Greek is Methetes, which is a student, it's an apprentice, which is far more than like a didactic exchange. It is an embodied life. It's watching how someone, there's texture and life to it. So I I I think it's a a prime opportunity, actually. It's a prime opportunity to be saying, This is what we believe in wine, and this is what it means in my everyday. This again, this is what it means in the in-between, because the vast majority of your life, the vast majority of your waking hours are in that in-between, not on that Sunday or Wednesday night.
SPEAKER_01Wow. Okay, come on, preach. It it is so real that relational trust right now, and we have data on this, and that's that'll be for another episode, listeners, but we have data on the erosion of institutional trust. And yeah, it's absolutely true in the church and with scripture, but it's also true with politics and government and other forms of institutions, secular or otherwise. And so that erosion has actually, I mean, all relational voices have always been very important. That's how humans work, that's how God made us to be together and to learn from each other. But even more, when we now we don't trust the institutions, and now people are, there's all of these different authoritative voices. And you mentioned AI and social media, and you know, we just released an episode on that. It's there is a sort of battleground for who has authority to speak truth right now. And I love that this stat is telling us that moms still have authority and they always have, but there is a special call of those in-between moments and stewarding those moments well. So I agree with you that I'm encouraged. I'm definitely saddened about the scripture piece, but I also know that it's like, oh, that's actually an exciting opportunity space for the church and for leaders to innovate and think about how we can share scripture and the beauty of scripture with the next generation. And I love that you talked about embodiment. I'm curious, could you say more about what how what is embodiment of the word look like to you in between moments?
SPEAKER_02I mean, for me, I'm I keep on coming back to um the Sermon on the Mount and the end of the Sermon on the Mount when Jesus gives the example of the one um who builds their house on rock and the one who builds their house on sand. And the picture of them both hearing the words, but one doing something about it. Anyone can talk a good game, actually. Anybody can say out loud words from scripture. That's not hard. Um and and I'm not saying it's useless, but anybody can do it. But that doesn't show you how to live it. And what we see Jesus saying there is actually it's the putting it into practice that's key. That's where it's embodied. So an example um would be okay, what does it mean to love my neighbour in practice? Who is my neighbor in practice? Or what does it mean to forgive in practice when I'm dealing with a boss or a challenge? And again, when we're talking about mothers, many mothers we're talking about the home, but also the the the spheres they operate in. Many mothers are working. So we're talking, and so it's no wonder that that um people are coming to them because they're like, okay, I'm looking at what you do at home, at work, at church, and in the many spheres of your life, you're putting this air, this principle of forgiveness uh into practice. When your boss hasn't understood what you're going through, when someone's taking you for granted, when you read something in the headlines and it's frustrating you again. Um, I'm watching how you respond in this moment in a way which is authentic, which even shows the wrestling if it needs to, even shows the grief if it needs to, but but seems to reflect someone seeking with all that they are in the power of the spirit what it means to surrender to the word of God and what it means to live what Jesus says about love, forgiveness, compassion, grace, truth, justice, all of that with their everyday life. Because where else are we gonna live it? It's not just we we we say the gospel isn't just about an intellectual ascent. And if it's not embodied, what are we? What are we doing? What are we doing? It's that's just poetry. And poetry's fantastic, but I'm not embell- I'm not spending my time embodying Shakespeare. I'm not spending my time embodying um Chaucer or anybody, much as I love them all. I'm I'm seeking to embody what I'm learning about the life of Jesus because truth is a person, and because he has he is modelled a way to live. And so I think when we're looking at embodying, we know even our children and the children, I like to say the children in our lives because I do think it takes knowledge. Um but I when we're modeling it to the children, the young adults in our life, whoever that whoever we're coming, we're we know their lives are different. The challenges they face are different, but can they see someone who is saying, yeah, the it's hard to work this out, but I am seeking to be faithful to the Jesus I know and the Jesus I've met who's transformed my life. That's what embodiment means. If I'm saying something about money, and that the if I'm reading that the Bible's saying something about money, I'm looking at my finances and saying, what does this mean in this moment? Well, that that should an embodiment should affect my bank balance. Do you know what I mean? And not just my opinions on my bank balance, but where I invest and where I divest. I think that's what we're talking about. We're talking about um it it where the rubber hits the road, where it gets real and practical.
SPEAKER_01Man, that's so good. It is true that I think even the next generation is more attuned to hypocrisy and inconsistency of practice because unfortunately they've seen a lot of it. And, you know, as you said, there is more knowledge and awareness of what's happening, not just in your local church and your community, but what's happening around the country and around the world. And so unfortunately, stories of inconsistency, stories of hypocrisy, moral failure, failure to wrestle well or to put your money where your mouth is, et cetera, um, those stories are more public. And I think they can be demoralizing. But to see an adult leader, someone older going before you, spiritual parent, mother, or otherwise, who is wrestling faithfully, as you said. And I love that the permission there is not to live a perfect life and to walk perfectly and to parent perfectly, but to wrestle faithfully and in an embodied way, where actually getting down to the nitty-gritty and the practical is really like you said, that's 90 plus percent of our walk is those very unsexy day-to-day moments and the folding the laundry and the getting frustrated by this and that, and the news comes up and the bills come in. And so I just love that it I think it can be intimidating. I'm not yet a mom and a spiritual mom in many ways, but it's, you know, it can be intimidating the idea of man, you got little humans and you're trying to raise them up as disciples. So I'm just curious, what would you say to um moms, parents, otherwise, people who are in positions to influence the next generation? What would you say to someone who's fearful, intimidated, discouraged, or feels hopeless?
SPEAKER_02Um, I mean, in many ways, I'd say I'd remind us that all of us, that's all of us, um, that we all have, we're all an example to the next generation in some way. I mean, I know some have Different proximity to others and some proximities in our own bodies. And I get that. And I I would say that it's it is understandable that it's fearful because it's it's a life you're dealing with, and and because we we don't want to get it wrong. We don't want to damage okay, you know, we don't want to damage people. But I am found that I've what again, I I'm Nigerian background, so I'm very much understand a collective culture. It does take a village to raise a child. It it does take a community. So I would ask you, who are the community you're dealing with, doing this life with? Single, married, different age groups, different generations. That has always been I believe that's really important. Um yes, like families, like as you know, you know better than I do, the the nuclear families are a real recent phenomenon. Real recent phenomenon. The idea that these just these two parents raise these kids, it's always been extended of these blood and non-blood ties that we're helping. And that actually makes the job easier. Complex in other ways for sure, but it has the potential to make it easier. And so I I would say it's understandable because it's overwhelming to think about doing this on our own. So I want us to be thinking through um who are the fa what what does our family unit look like? And again, I'm asking that of all of us, if we're single, what does your family unit look like? Because this isn't a kind of this is this isn't a married person's thing. It's that and some of us are raising our children on our own. Who are the people we're gathering around us? And what does that what does that look like? I think there is an element of dependence. Because if we get the lift, if we get the gift of a long life, then we find that there are different chapters and some which are harder than others. There are tough eras because you're dealing with life and personalities and different things. Um, and so I rather than performing being a good parent for God, rather than performing being a good Christian for Jesus, I I again I'm asking, am I being a faithful one? Because am I being a faithful believer? And am I investing in my own walk with Jesus? Am I investing in my own relationships with the Bible? Am I am I inviting God by the power of his spirit to fill me up to a and for my parenting, but honestly for every part of my life, for my neighboring, for the for the kind of friends I have, because all of those things affect the parent I am. All of them do. For the work that I do, the way that I give, all of these things. And I am I seeking to, I don't want to be so myopic that I obsess over my ch over my children, although I adore them. But I am wanting to make sure that I'm a faithful believer because as as I seek to follow him and seek to learn from others and seek to be faithful to the things he's placed in my hand in the different chapters, all of that impacts how I raise my kids. All of it. And and the people we have in our lives impact how we raise our kids. And and and I think that's important because otherwise we can get real performative on whether our child is performing enough Jesus for us. Do you know what I mean? And we think it's about them, but it's actually about us. Do you know what I mean? It's actually about whether we feel like we we did it right. And um and there is I I found, I mean, in every part of my life, I found faithfulness to be a better marker of success rather than achievement. And that have I been faithful with what's been entrusted to me, with who's been entrusted to me, with the relationships I've been given, of every nature? Have I been faithful to uh to spend time with the Lord who will show me what it means to love in the way that He um that He's designed me for and He calls me into? Have I been faithful with the vulnerability of saying to people, I don't know what I'm doing, I need help? Have I been faithful to make sure that I'm walking with the Lord and that my mental and emotional and spiritual health are in a good place? And if they're not, because life happens to all of us, am I attending to things so that it stops with me? How many said that the brokenness stops with me and doesn't break all over my fa all over my family? Have I been faithful in attending to the things that the Lord's kind of nudging me about? Those are the questions I have for us. Have I been faithful with the career he may have given me in a certain chapter? I've been faithful to step into things or step away from things as he invites. I think faithfulness is key.
SPEAKER_01Wow. Yeah, and I love this holistic vision too. It because it's not about this sort of myopic, like performance-driven metric. And I'm curious, you you've said so much about this, but if you could distill how do you measure faithfulness in your life? Because you're right that there is sometimes, and I got caught up in this too, a performative way that we engage with faith. Oh, well, you know, I went to church every Sunday this month and I read my Bible six to seven days a week, and I prayed this amount of time, and I was outside, I was pretty, pretty whitewashed, I was pretty good, like I did, you know, and and I think, you know, that's not all wrong, but I'm curious for you, what what is faithfulness really?
SPEAKER_02For me, faithfulness is is about consistency. Uh, but the consistency is about saying is in me connecting with the Lord and saying, am I doing what he asked me to do? What's the last thing he asked me to do? Did I do that? Am I staying on it? Am I there are some things I don't need a word from God to do. Do you know what I'm saying? There are some things that as like something like treating people well are social skills. I don't I shouldn't need an angel to show up to say, be nice to the barista when you get your cop. Do you know what I mean?
SPEAKER_01We will know, we will know.
SPEAKER_02Come on now, let's be grown about this. But um, but when I'm thinking about faithfulness, I'm asking, and I'm asking, am I faithful in spending time and be am I available? Faithfulness for me is being available and interruptible. One of the young adults I work with described it as being interruptible for go. Could God tell can God tell me what to do? Can he tell me to does God have permission to tell me about myself? Or or is he my tool for self-actualization? Or can God do it? Is he my Lord? Or so faithful for me is am I available? Am I like, can he send, am I accessible or am I really closed up? Am I interruptible? Can he tell me what to do? And so the practices of my life that I'm building, and I say practices because I'm not perfect to any of them, the practices I'm building, whether it's prayer, whether it's silence, whether it's reading the Bible, and they've looked different at the different ages of my kids, I will be in the different seasons of our life and where we've been. The practices are me trying to find ways to be accessible, available, interruptible, surrendered to him. And and some and there are moments where I run away and resist. Do you know what I mean? We all bring our baggage, and when I'm running away and what's the length of time it takes for me to come back into the surrender? Those are the questions I'm asking when I'm talking about being faithful, because he's we can't outfaithful God. We're just stepping into the love of a faithful God. And the and that love will sometimes be a challenge. Sometimes it'll be a corrective word. Am I willing to listen? Am I willing to surrender? Am I willing to wrestle before the Lord? That's what that's what I'm thinking. So for me, it's the heart pot, the heart posture, um, the internal attitudes that I'm seeking to, in all of these spiritual practices, to allow God to get to. And that's so the practices aren't an end in themselves, they're an introduction. It's like they are the menu to the meal, you know? Um and so for me, if I'm being faithful, I it if I because there have been chapters, there have been chapters in my life where I've been faithful with the practices and my heart has been in another room.
SPEAKER_03Do you know what I mean?
SPEAKER_02My heart, my attitudes, my plans, and all of that kind of stuff. And then there have been times when my heart has been there, but I haven't had any practices, so it's just kind of got sloppy and here, there, and everywhere. And so I've needed to work out, okay, if I can, if I can be, if my heart can be available, my heart, my mind, my will is available, then I need to just be in check regularly enough. I need to be connecting with God so that there's room for him to speak, for that, so there's room for him to challenge, so there's room for him to encourage. And that's an individual thing and a community piece as well. So that I there are there are individual practices and there are communal practices which help me in um live a faithful life.
SPEAKER_01Wow, that was a masterclass in faithfulness, discipleship practices, heart posture. I love this, you know. Is he my lord or is he my genie in a bottle? And those two things look are very say that line for Christina.
SPEAKER_02That's the Christina song. Not there you go, there you go.
SPEAKER_01I'm curious, with all that said, how do you think churches and Christian leaders can better support mothers and support spiritual leaders and parents into this vision of faithfulness? Yeah. One that is, it's not 100% practices, it's not 100% internal, but this melding of both worlds. Where do you think mothers need more support?
SPEAKER_02I think um it's not, I heard someone describe something, I can't remember the context even, but they talk about the difference between being known and being seen. And I I would encourage us, I would encourage leaders to observe their people for a while because the challenges that they may face may be different. So but I want you, I want to encourage to observe. Look at the women in your community. Are they working women? Are they, because if you are encouraging only one dimension of their life and not acknowledging another, you know them a bit, but you're not really seeing them. You're not really seeing the full gamut of things they're they're juggling and they're facing. And so you're like, well, I feel I'm encouraging them. So what's not happening? And it's like, well, are we seeing them holistically? They're holistic pressures. Um and so but that will vary from congregation and community. So I would first encourage some observation and like again, take some data. What are are when you're when you're talking about the women and the mothers in your community, are they, are they I'll put it this way. I remember being at an event of professional women who were all mothers, and they said, I can never get to a Bible study. They're at because they're always at a time that I'm working. And and so on one level, there was encouragement, but there wasn't the investment in them. And so they were like, Well, I don't know, I don't fit here. And so they were very unintentionally being excluded. And they were mothers, but they weren't being seen. And I and then there are other environments who felt other things saying, Well, I can't volunteer in this moment because I've got all of the, you know, my kids are young, I'm exhausted. I'm how are we ministering to all these sorts of things? Uh, but I need to, I need some investment, I need some encouragement, I need some voices, I need some speaking into my life. So, but I think that all starts with observation because our response needs to be contextual. And and I would and after the observing, I would do some listening. I would listen and I would listen to different generations of women, but different professional women. Like, um talk to your stay-at-home mums, the ones who get the chance to be, but talk to the ones who are working part-time, talk to ones who are working full-time, talk to ones who are single, talk to the ones who are divorced, talk to the ones who are married. Because if you want a picture, then you have to look at the picture. Um, and and then um, but I think that will inform us because we are leaders are wonderful people. They've got creativity coming out of their eyeballs, they've got innovation coming out of their eyeballs, but but if we if we innovate without observing, we create things for a world that doesn't exist. And so I want to encourage us to create things for the world that exists, and we do that by engaging with it. Not the one we want, the one that exists. That's the other piece. Do you know what I mean? We could we could we could have all kinds of assumptions of what um a mother is or feels, and I and to not assume that all the mothers only have mother friends. My kids god my kids God's mothers. Some of them are married, some of them aren't, some of them have kids, some of them don't. And those are their community too. We're all community too. And and just the mothering journey is a long one and it has twists and turns. And so in our congregations, there are women who are dealing with IVF, who have had a diagnosis of infertility, there are others who've lost there all there are miscarriage, there's all kinds of things. So I would encourage us always also not to only talk about that on Mother's Day. If we not not if we're gonna if we're thinking of faithfulness, then it's faithfulness is 365. It's not Mother's Day. And also for the ones who've had a struggle with mothering, they're not gonna be there on that day anyway. So, you know, there's that because you don't go, you don't go. Yeah. Sorry, I might have gone on the tangent then.
SPEAKER_01Oh, that was that was not a tangent, that was a word. That was a word, not a tangent show. I I'm just digesting all the disprofound trees, I'm especially sitting with this often we build for this utopia ministry, but you have to build for the actual people that you serve. It's true in the nonprofit realm, it's true in ministry, it's true in business. Yeah, you have to be grounded in reality. And so I love this observe your community. What are the actual felt needs of your community? Where are the women? What are they up to? How can you actually minister to the women you have, not the women you think you have or the ones you want? So I just I think that's very powerful.
SPEAKER_02And I think it's as old as the Bible. I do. I think what I'm suggesting is not some culturally relevant thing. I'm thinking Paul in Athens, when Paul goes to Athens and there are all these idols all around, and he like, and then he finds the one of the unknown goddess, speaks to that. And he's looking at the articulations of the culture. He's looking at the things that matter and the fears and the anxieties. And I'm simply encouraging us to say, okay, Lord, show me what's there. What's the word to the culture you've called me to lead lead in? What's the word to this community? What's what's the what and when I say what's that word, what are we living into and embodying? Um yeah, I just I feel we're more likely to reach them if we watch them, if we see them.
SPEAKER_01Amen to that. And uh oh, shout out Acts 17. That's my favorite chapter of the entire Bible. I love it. So I love that you just brought that up because man, Paul preaching in Athens. It's just it's such a beautiful encapsulation of the gospel and what it looks like to be people where they are, not where you want them to be. Just a quick pause to say how grateful we are for our partnership with Mom Co. We think you are going to love what we've created together. Mom Co. started in 1973 as seven women gathering in Colorado and has since grown into a global movement, reaching over 3 million moms annually across 110 countries, all with the same heartbeat, equipping moms to flourish as mothers, women, and leaders in relationship with Jesus and the local church. We've put together a free resource called the Mom Factor: How churches can unlock the spiritual power already in their pews. Moms are one of the most spiritually engaged groups in any congregation. And this resource is designed to help churches see and support that more intentionally. And of course, to help moms feel seen and equipped in their own faith journeys. So whether you lead a church or you are a mom in the pew, there is something here for you. Download it for free at Barna.com/slash momco or find it at the link in our show notes. Now, back to the interview. I want to ask one more question. Yeah. What gives you hope about this current cultural moment? And this is sure including mothers, but just more broadly with what's happening spiritually, what's what's giving you hope?
SPEAKER_02Now, Ashley, I'm going to ask your forgiveness because I'm a Gen Xer, which means it always starts negative, but it gets here in the end. Or maybe. Go there, please. I what gives me hope. Um I'm reminded first of all, I'm reminded of that Augustine quote about hope. Um hope has two daughters, anger and courage. Anger at the way things are and the courage to not leave them as they are. Um and I think what gives me hope is is that we are being forced to acknowledge things suck. We are being forced. We we are being forced. Our eyes are being we can't look away. I mean, we can try, but we are being forced to acknowledge, no, it's not okay. No, we're not okay, we're not doing okay. Things are hard, there are no quick answers, and your silver bullets suck and they don't work. Well, they we are being for and I and on one level that is heartbreaking and it's tough, and it's like, oh my gosh, how do we do this? It feels more polarized than ever, more impossible than ever, more, and it may be all of those things and true, but actually we need to see it for what it is, because as you said, utopia is not helping any of us. And it's certainly not getting the gospel out. And Jesus doesn't need utopia. He doesn't need us to be, he doesn't need us to be utopian. He came for this. He came for this world that is as messy as it is right now, that is as broken. And it and so what gives me hope is that we are being forced to take a long, hard look at it and a long, hard look at ourselves, and then work out how we'll respond to the challenges and the opportunities of our day. And the reason why that makes me hopeful is that if we look at it honestly, we realize one, we can't do anything wit without him. Um and two, it gives us a it will force an innovation and a creativity and a vitality because we have to try something else. We have to do some, we cannot keep on doing the same things and and getting and getting um different results and and um or hoping for different results kind of thing. Where it's like it we we have to admit some things aren't working or don't work everywhere, you know, or don't work in our and maybe we don't have the financial resources we hoped, and we don't have the people or the or and we have to reckon with the anxiety that many leaders feel. We have to reckon with these things. If it's not working, it's because it's not working. And the irony is it makes me hopeful because it's like maybe we're gonna get to the end of ourselves. Maybe we're gonna get to the end of our versions of things, and and truly take the time it takes to seek God fully and thoroughly for the answers and for and for even the right questions to be asking. And so I and and I know that's a weird that's a weird thing to say, hope-wise, but I but I think rock bottom is a is the place of a new beginning.
SPEAKER_01Amen. Oh, okay. Well, now I have to ask you a bonus question. Yeah. Because I no, no, no, that is so profound and I I resonate deeply. What do you think are the greatest challenges facing the American church and the church globally today?
SPEAKER_02I think um for the American church, I think we have to get to grips with power. That Jesus is not a nice version of earthly power, that he is the king of kings and he's the lord of lords, and he defines how power should look like, and he defines what ruling and reigning looks like. And so we see it in the Sermon on the Mount, we see um we see it in how he loved the outcast, we see it in the way he's truth to power, we see it in the the embodied life of Jesus, we see his strategies for that. Um and so when so when we're looking at how we handle power, if we're not aligning with him, rather than sprinkling, trying to sprinkle him on earthly versions, um, then I would I would suggest that maybe we're deviating from it. Do you know what I mean? That we're that human alternatives are not are not will not get kingdom solutions. Um I think I think that's a huge reckoning for us. And and I I think in the Western world we have done so many things that are there are wonderful technological technological advances that have made our life easier and more effective and all of that. But there are some things that are just hard work, take a long time, and will require persistence and diligence and sacrifice. Hard, boring, unsexy sacrifice. And I think that is one of the things that in the in the Western world we have to we have to reckon we have to reckon with. Um yeah, I think those those are the ones that come to my mind for um immediately in terms of I I'm reminded of Dallas Willis' thing about was it was it him or Eugene Peterson who talked about long obedience in the same direction? I think we do obedience and then we're like, oh, but what about this? That's shiny. What about this, that's shiny? Oh, maybe if I it's like we we treat it like monopoly and we look for the card that says you can pass, you do not go to jail, you can pass go, you can there are no quick fixes, friends. There aren't. We are um and we will have to keep on working out what it means to deny ourselves daily and to pick up our course daily. And that may mean some of the cultural mores that we love and and all that kind of thing, we they go there too. Um it may mean creativity and innovation in ways that we didn't, we just didn't expect. Um but I but I don't think it's gonna be quick.
SPEAKER_01Thank you. Thank you for that. I yeah, there's so much there. There's so much there. Um I would just love to ask you to pray for our listeners. Would you just say a blessing, whatever whatever the spirit brings up.
SPEAKER_02Yeah. Lord, I want to thank you um for these wonderful people. Lord, I pray a blessing on our spiritual parenting. Um, open our eyes to see, give us fresh eyes to see the people around us who you want us to share our story with, share our testing with, share our experiences with, who you want us to be living examples to. Give us courage for that. Lord, I pray for those who long to be a parent in the traditional sense of the word, who have known pain and grief through miscarriages or infertility or a singleness they didn't want, um, who've known Grief and devastation, I ask for mercy. I thank you, Lord, that you're the one who mourned with those who mourn and you come for those who grieve and provide for them in the Lord for those of us who are seeking to raise the next generation, either through our work or through our in our households, or all this race. Give us courage. Give us confidence and courage. Give us creativity to try new things. And Lord, all of us, Lord, we want to see you move. So I pray your blessing on every person so that we can live faithfully to the life you invite us into the renewal of all things.
SPEAKER_01Amen. Thank you so much, Joe. You have just been amazing. And it is it is so rich and wonderful to get to hear from you. So thanks for coming on the Faith and Culture Report.
SPEAKER_02Thank you for having me.
SPEAKER_01I'm so encouraged by that conversation. How about you do?
SPEAKER_00Me too. Yeah, me too. It's uh it's so fun getting to hear from not just a friend, but someone who is such an amazing leader. So, Joe, thanks for joining us on that conversation.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, I'm so intrigued too. If, you know, we talked about at the beginning, our one number, 53%, 53% of teenagers say that their mom is their most trusted source for guidance on faith and spirituality. It brings up questions of discipleship of moms. How are our churches catering to the spiritual formation of moms? If moms are the primary source of spiritual formation for the next generation. So I'm I'm percolating there.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, and we didn't get into it so much in the data side of this, but you know, the notion that um, you know, women, young women are having a harder time finding their way um into or through the church, you know, there's a whole other episode coming on that. Yeah, so I mean, like motherhood is set against the backdrop of a lot of disenchantment and frustration and challenges. So again, we're just here to encourage you. We have to take good stock of the reality around us to respond well to it. So it's we have to deal with the data even if we don't like it. But women are struggling in some ways, moms are struggling in some ways, and I just I think it's important for us to just talk about how we can, as the church, stand alongside women and moms and help them to make the difference that God has called them to make.
SPEAKER_01Absolutely, and and build them up as spiritual leaders. And I think there's many women who grew up feeling, you know, and there's varying theologies in the church, but feeling like, oh, you know, I don't really have a voice to speak in. I don't really have a voice that has spiritual authority. And the data says otherwise. The data says you do have spiritual authority, your voice matters, and it actually has profound impact generationally. Yeah. So that's so encouraging to be.
SPEAKER_00One of the one of my favorite uh sections of scripture the last few years has been uh Second Timothy, and uh that is Paul's last letter. Uh most scholars think it was uh written as his last letter before he passed, before he was um uh martyred for his faith. And um, and so you know, he writes at the very beginning uh to Timothy, you know, he's kind of giving his his protege uh an encouragement, and it's so powerful, it's a very touching uh human book because, you know, in God's providence, he's given us not just a letter to all the church, but to one person. And in that letter, at the very beginning, he says, Timothy, I know this um this the same faith that beats in the heart of your mother, Lois, and your grandmother, Eunice, yeah, is in you. And so there's no call out of the men. There is a call out of the mother and the grandmother. And uh, and so we can see even in that uh reference, that um divine scripture. Now, of course, we have Paul, he's mentoring, he's you know, mentoring for Timothy. Um, there is a role for men and men, you know, mentoring men and w women mentoring women, and all the rest. But it's so cool just to see the shaping influence of those of those women in Timothy's life, these spiritual giants. And and then Paul continues on to encourage him, you know, to fan into flames the spiritual gifts that God has given you. And uh God's not given us a spirit of fear, but of power, love, and sound mind. And so there's some really powerful insights in that, you know, that that sort of passing on the faith, the baton of faith. And that the book is so personal to me because it just it talks about like these the passing of time, and you know, the very end, uh Paul sort of says, like, I've fought the good fight, I've finished my race, I'm just about done. And he's like, Hey, come quickly before the winter because it's getting cold. You know, he's like, bring my cloak. And so there's something so human about that letter, and it includes this very specific uh reference back to Lois and uh Eunice and the mother and the grandmother. So you just think about a personal, a personal note that we started our episode with my personal note from a mom, and uh the power of handwritten notes to keep keep us going and our faith to be encouraged.
SPEAKER_011000%. And I think I think back on so much of the favor that I've stepped into because of my mom's prayers, and not just my mom, but my grandma and my great grandma. My great grandma was actually the one who introduced my mom to Jesus. And so, you know, aren't we just living in the fruit of many mothers' prayers out here?
SPEAKER_00That's right. Well said.
SPEAKER_01Oh, okay. Well, I am so grateful for that episode. Thank you, Joe, for all that wisdom and discernment. I am so grateful for mom. So if you are a mom out there, if you love a mom out there, we just give honor to you. Thank you, mamas. If today's conversation resonated with you, if you learned something new, if you enjoyed it, make sure to subscribe to the Barna Faith and Culture Report wherever you listen to podcasts. Share it with a friend, a coworker, a mom, or someone who needs to hear it. Download today's episode to revisit later and please leave us a review. That is actually the best way for other people to find our show. We are so grateful you've joined us in this conversation discerning the data. And of course, before you go, we just want to give one more shout out to Mom Co. and the brand new resource we created together called the Mom Factor. It's available as a free download right now, packed with so many beautiful insights about moms and church. So head to Barna.comslash momco or check out the show notes to grab your copy. We will see you next time on the Barna Faith and Culture Report.