The Barna Faith and Culture Report

06 | Bryan Loritts on Fatherhood, Faith & Raising the Next Generation

• Barna Group • Season 1 • Episode 6

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In this episode, David Kinnaman sits down with pastor, author, and speaker Bryan Loritts to explore new Barna data on men and church attendance, including a striking finding that 62% of married dads are now the most consistent churchgoers of any parent group, outpacing married moms by 15 points. Together, they unpack what's driving men back to church. Bryan brings both the data and the lived experience, sharing what he's learned raising three young adult sons, why the moments that stick are never the ones you planned, and how watching his own kids initiate with him changed the way he thinks about his relationship with his father. Together, they unpack what it means to parent each child according to their unique wiring, how to step out from a father's shadow and into your own identity, and the grace that fatherhood, human and divine, invites us into.

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SPEAKER_01

Welcome to the Barna Faith and Culture Report. My name is Ashley Lont, and I'm here with my co-host David Kinneman, and we're so excited to dive into the stats with you. On today's episode, we discuss fatherhood and the interesting trends around dads and church attendance with Pastor Brian Laritz. We can't wait. This is the Faith and Culture Report. Today's episode is brought to you by Man in the Mirror and their Spiritual Fathers initiative. Their mission is simple: to equip mature Christian men to mentor and disciple the next generation. Through practical tools and a clear roadmap, Spiritual Fathers helps younger men find the guidance and support they're looking for. Head on over to maninthemirror.org to learn more or find the link in our show notes. Hey David, good morning. How you doing?

SPEAKER_04

Hey, Ashley, good to see you.

SPEAKER_01

Good to see you too.

SPEAKER_04

Yeah, how are you? So, what's uh one good thing that's happening for you?

SPEAKER_01

Ooh, well, I'll say recently I got to go on a trip with my mom to Mallorca, Spain. And for anyone listening who doesn't know where that is, which I didn't before, a bit before researching this trip, it's a beautiful island in the middle of the Mediterranean. It's got beaches and vineyards and mountains, and we got to take this train through the mountains and spend some time, you know, at a lovely sort of boutique spa, hotel, resort, uh, you know, sip wine looking at the Mediterranean, go uh, Palma is the main city there, do some thrifting and kind of explore the sites. And I speak some Spanish, so it was really fun to get to utilize that. And of course, to celebrate my mom's birthday. Really special time.

SPEAKER_04

That's really cool. Yeah, that's awesome.

SPEAKER_01

How about you? Good news?

SPEAKER_04

Well, I do. Yeah, because on that trip, you brought me back a surprise, which we're going to show later on this podcast. But it was uh it was maybe made my decade.

SPEAKER_00

Made the decade.

SPEAKER_04

Something you found at a thrift store.

SPEAKER_00

Wow, the power of thrifting.

SPEAKER_04

That is the title of the new book I've been working on. So I thought it was like this cool little prophetic confirmation that I'm on the right track. And uh it's really really fun. So anyway, uh later in the later in the podcast episode, later in the in the series, we'll we'll talk a little bit more about this book, but I've been working on it for a number of years and I finally turned in the manuscript. So that is some good news right there.

SPEAKER_00

Oh, that was really fun. I can't wait to share more with you all about that. God is so funny, he's got a great sense of humor.

SPEAKER_04

Totally.

SPEAKER_00

All right, what's our one number for today?

SPEAKER_04

Uh well, today our one number is uh 62. So 62% of married dads attend church, which out of all the different parent groups, married dads have become the most consistent church attenders, which this might surprise people because you know often we think about moms or uh, you know, married moms uh as being the most the most likely to attend. But he so 62% of married dads attend church, that's 15% points, for 15 percentage points above married moms, 18 percentage points above single dads, and 23 points above single moms. So in both cases, dads are more likely to attend uh a church than a mom is, and married dad's more likely than a married mom, single dad more likely than a single mom. So it's very interesting because I think this notion of like where do men show up when they have children under 18, uh the majority of men in our society are uh attending church.

SPEAKER_01

Yeah, it is interesting. And it also feels in alignment with some of the other trends that we've been talking about, about just men broadly are attending church more. And so there is this sort of wave happening uh around sort of gender identity, recommitting to the Christian faith, or at the very least, attending church. And it's it's quite interesting. But I think there's also, you know, an underbelly to ask why aren't single moms attending church? Why aren't married moms? We know also Gen Z women have been leaving the church at higher rates. And so you we celebrate and have excitement about dads, married, single, even you know, non-dads, men and boys and and young adults attending church. But we also should ask some tough questions about what is happening with women and what is happening in churches where women either are not feeling welcomed, encouraged, supported, spoken to. So for me, you know, as a woman, I also think about that side.

SPEAKER_04

Yeah, no doubt. Yeah, and we mentioned this on a previous episode, but one of the best selling books of 2025 was Notes on Being a Man by Scott Galloway.

SPEAKER_00

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04

And just thinking about the gaps that we have in terms of what it means to be a man, what it means to be a woman, what it means to be a father. And I think there is this huge hunger for people just to know, like, all right, how do I make sense of my complex life and all the chaos and the swirl? So, you know, we're here today to talk about fatherhood and more broadly men, but also we're here to talk about sort of these ways that the church can have a persuasive witness to manhood and womanhood and fatherhood and motherhood.

SPEAKER_01

Yeah, and and it's true that the church and scripture has so much to say about a positive vision. I think there's a lot of uh negative vision, and I don't mean sure negative discourse, but also, oh, this is what men are not or cannot be. This is what fathers are not, women are not, whatever, what have you, but a positive vision, something you can live into, something that calls you higher, something that uh, you know, invites you into a grander sort of worldview and vision. So I'm I'm really excited to talk more about that.

SPEAKER_04

And that reminds me, that reminds me of this uh phrase that we used to use um about a project that was called Unchristian, that Christianity is defined by all the things it's against rather than it's for. So maybe that to to riff off what you just said, maybe we could uh as Christians think about what is fatherhood for? What are the ways we want the positive vision of fatherhood to work? Or for men who don't don't have the chance to be a dad, uh, or like for me, I've got three uh, you know, young adult children. Um so the positive vision of what it means to be uh a parent, a father to these young people rather than just all the things we're unable to do.

SPEAKER_01

Absolutely. And you know, that's so near and dear to my heart. I'm like, I hate that Christians are known for what we're in theory against. And what if Christians were known for our love, like Jesus talked about? You know, you know, you will know them by their love and their fruit. And so I'm just excited to dive into this conversation. And truly, we can have a whole other five episodes about some of the work that you did with UnChristian, which if anyone listening hasn't read was one of David's earlier books. Uh, but we're really gonna dive into this conversation with Brian LaRitz. So if you don't yet know Brian, Brian LaRitz is the teaching pastor at the Summit Church in North Carolina, an award-winning author of 10 books, including The Dad Difference, the Four Most Important Gifts You Can Give to Your Kids. He spent much of his ministry serving and resourcing the multi-ethnic church, which he's passionate about seeing become the new normal. He serves on the board of Viola University, is a visiting professor at Grimke Seminary, and is the vice president of Regents for the Send Network. He's married and is the loving father of three young men. Let's welcome Brian Laritz.

SPEAKER_04

So I'm sitting here with uh my good friend Brian La Ritz, and we've had the chance to become friends over the last decade uh in a lot of different settings, but mainly on the Biola board. So we're trustees at Biola University, both being graduates. Uh and uh what a what an amazing leader, what an even better friend. And uh thanks so much for joining the podcast, the Faith and Culture Report.

SPEAKER_02

Well, thanks, uh David. It's always great being with you. And then I'm I'm thinking about what you said the last decade. And that's man, time flies. Time flies. So yeah, it's crazy. Missed you at our last board meeting, by the way, but you were at a kid's graduation.

SPEAKER_04

I'm doing my fatherly duty, which is uh an entree into our conversations. Yeah, I know my son, Zach, graduated from Colorado State University, and that was my third and final kid to put through, at least undergraduate school. Got some support going out for uh for the for the others in grad school, but um um but much less so. And I got a big raise the week after he finished all that. Uh yeah, no, I'm just being at the board meeting. So uh the podcast is set up to talk about some of the key cultural trends, faith trends, and also just like what does it mean? Where are we at? What are we thinking about? And so we're so honored to have you on the podcast today. And one of the unique things about um Faith and Culture Report, uh, since this is you've been on other uh others of our podcast before, but this is the first time you've been on this one, we have what we call the one number. So the one number for today is 62. 62, 62% of married dads attend church, and out of all the parent groups, married dads surprisingly have become the most consistent church attendees, 15 points above church of married moms, 18 points above single dads, and 23 points above single moms. So that's a really interesting number. I'd love to hear your reaction to it.

SPEAKER_02

Wow. So on one hand, I go, uh, makes sense, you know, I I just hear, and it's pretty common, even among, in my experience, uh, parents who wouldn't say they're Christians. I've I've met plenty of those who come to our church, uh, along with parents who would identify with kind of a nominal, what they would say, Christian orientation. Uh, of course, we know what drives that is they want something better for their kids. It's like they have a felt need for their kids that they don't necessarily have for themselves, which is an interesting dynamic. And uh I am not uh hating on anybody who does that, uh, whatever it takes to get your foot in the door. What I'm curious about that statistic is the higher engagement among um married dads over married moms. That throws me a little bit. I would think that would be flipped. Um, so I'd love your insight on that.

SPEAKER_04

Well, I think um David. Uh I'm the one doing the questions here, Brian. Is the No, I think uh listen, as being a social researcher, um, up has been down, down has been up these last five, six years. Uh it it correlates with the pandemic, but it is not uh probably caused by the pandemic, but we're seeing men and women uh kind of a role reversal, um, where men are now more likely to say they attend church than women. Um, I think there's been a really interesting kind of gender gap, younger men uh returning to church at a much faster clip than young women 18 to 29. Um, so I think that fits within that larger pattern. I don't think we've done enough deep dive yet to know why the difference, because it it is a surprising finding, but I do think there's something about the sifting out of if you're a married man who's gonna be, you know, um attentive enough to your kids, there's something about um the constellation of factors that would say, okay, we're gonna we're we're we're churchgoers. And then among women who are more and more sort of the um the framework for faithfulness is changing, they can find a lot of social and cultural engagement through social media, through other friend groups, through yoga classes, all sorts of other things. They um, you know, there's just a there's a changing relationship of men and women to the church, men going up, women going down, women in general becoming more progressive, younger women especially, men are becoming a little more conservative politically. So there's a really interesting kind of like gap forming even on that basis. So um coming back to you now, since this is about hearing from you, um, I wonder what you think as a local church leader about what you're sort of seeing among men and women generally, and maybe some of the the patterns that seem um pertinent to your leadership today.

SPEAKER_02

Yeah, so definitely I would say I definitely feel to your last point, um the progressive leaning among women. My impression, uh, and of course I want to be very careful, careful how I say this. My impression um to that shift is that's directly tied to their perception of our president, right? And um some of the rhetoric. Uh, again, I am I am not you know making kind of any moral indictments or even you know political endorsements, but um I I would say that is a significant factor uh from my perch. What I'm seeing is uh a lack of sensitivity there uh that that they're experiencing, which would have the uh effect of kind of steering them in the opposite direction. So, yes, makes all the sense in the world, and yes, I have seen that uh pretty soon. How are you leading through as a pastor?

SPEAKER_04

Political divisiveness. I mean, I I think we've been through lots of seasons before, but when you when you think about what are some rules of thumb or some approaches that you've taken that have really worked, and maybe a few things that you're learning, just try to steer clear of or do do it a different way.

SPEAKER_02

Oh, that the the answer to that is is beyond easy, David, but it's incredibly hard as it relates to how it how it manifests itself. So the the posture that we take at our church is um we're not going to speak to the party, but we are going to speak to the issues. So on the one hand, we reject this whole notion um that either political party, that the kingdom of God fits neatly in any political party. Okay. I I would like to believe that that's a that's an easy one. On the other hand, we also reject the notion that don't mention anything about politics. Uh the Bible I read uh has plenty of plenty of things to say about political issues, right? Uh plenty plenty of things to say about the believer's responsibility and caring for the poor and the widow and the orphan, and a lot to say about the sanctity of life, both in the womb and out outside the womb. So what we have said is where the Bible speaks very clearly about when it comes to the issues, we're going to speak clearly about. I'm even thinking about that story in which, you know, the Herodians and um uh I think it was the Pharisees who cornered Jesus and they ask him a very political question. Should we pay taxes to Caesar? And at the end of the day, Jesus gives a masterful answer, but please notice he does take a side. He's like, absolutely, let's let's pay taxes to Caesar. Give me, give me a coin, whose image is on it. So, yes, I I do think we should speak about um, you know, uh the sanctity of human life inside the womb. Uh that's been politicized. I think we should talk about caring for orphans, caring for immigrants. Um where we draw the line, though, David, is I think there's plenty in the Bible to say about how we treat immigrants. There's nothing in the Bible that really guides us as it relates to um, you know, if we have open borders, how many people do we let in? From what country? Like now that's so far beyond that I don't even venture into those spaces, right? I want to go as far as the Bible goes in the issues without picking a political party.

SPEAKER_04

Such an interesting thing, we go so far in these different things. What what do you what do you think would be a way for us uh, you know, with AI coming coming on and with uh, you know, obviously some of the challenges of of social media and uh political rhetoric on on uh on our screens? Some of us are discipled, as our mutual friend Ed Stets are saying, more by our cable news network or our streaming than than by the Bible. How would a church become a kind of learning community, do you think, to help disciple people at some of these deeper, deeper questions? So, you know, do you have do you have thoughts on on how we could get get to a better place in the in the years to come?

SPEAKER_02

Yeah, I I I I think um I I think on one hand, Dave, well, what we have to have is we almost have to flip the model. Uh, right now, I think I think the way people view um discipleship in churches is hey, I I'm gonna pay to come sit under the leader who's in full-time vocational ministry. They went to seminary, they've got the educational credentials, so they're gonna lead me. The issues that you're talking about, we actually need people at the forefront of the marketplace to lead us, right? And so I think what's gotta undergurt all of that is a just a robust theology of the dignity of all work, faith in work, uh, and really helping helping everyone to see that that we are priests together. Um, and so I I want somebody who's really savvy in AI and yet who loves Jesus leading the way uh in these conversations and how to do it. Uh you and I sit on the board and there's a guy uh by the name of uh Pramode on our board and loves Jesus and does a lot of work in this area. If I went to church with him, if I was his pastor, I would look for guys like them and look for them to uh be empowered and to lead the way uh in these conversations. I I would love to go to church, you know, you read these articles about Silicon Valley uh executives who don't let their kids have a lot of screen time. Well, uh imagine going to church with one of them. Like we've got to empower platform and say, hey, I don't, I don't think I'm gonna serve our body well if I'm the only voice and I'm trying to tackle this from a sermon. No, you need to be leading the way. And so how do we inspire and give ministry away to these marketplace people who deeply love Jesus and are a lot more knowledgeable about Christmas? Couldn't agree more.

SPEAKER_04

Um when you think about AI, what what kinds of ways are you predicting on scale of one to ten from you know just just in where you sit? Uh from a one, like it'll be just minimal, almost no disruption, to a ten, like it's it's uh, you know, the matrix level, the world changes pretty fundamentally, and the the robots uh are in charge. You are you hopeful at a one or uh concerned about a big, a big uh sort of megatron bomb in our cultural environment, uh level 10.

SPEAKER_03

Well, so your questions are interesting.

SPEAKER_02

I don't think you just asked me one question, right? So you you asked me the hopeful question and then you asked me kind of the disruptor question. So my take's gonna be a little different than maybe you assumed, David. I think it's going to be close to a 10 as it relates to being a disruptor. But on the other hand, I don't look at that from a hopeless lens. Uh, do I have some questions? Do I have some concerns? Absolutely. Um but gosh, I'm Gen X, man. I my life predates smartphones and internets and personal computers. Um, and so my life has been flipped turned upside down, to quote the fresh prints of Bel Air, um, off of the technology we currently enjoy. I think AI is going to be a significant disruptor, but I'm not hopeless because I think in some ways it's going to be really beautiful. I do have major questions concerning my biggest question is what is this going to do when we think of the Imago day, um, the image of God in people and their ability to find meaningful work, right? Um, and so as a Christian, I just go, all work is meaningful that that brings about and and and creates human flourishing. And so I'm I'm really concerned for what does this look like for baristas and people in the service industry? And um I just what money cannot be the bottom line, right? So if if AI essentially means I can get rid of service industry employees, I don't I don't have to pay them, I don't have to give them insurance. Now I've got a robot or whatever automated system, so that now my profit margins are increased. As a Christian, that's just not good. That's just not that that's not so those are some of my concerns from a preaching perspective. I have conversations with preachers all the time. I tell them, I think AI is great. When I when I'm thinking about putting a sermon together, it can be my first move. I have ethical concerns. Um, you know, Tim Keller said back in the day that the internet is a friend of information, the enemy of thought. And so I'm concerned about AI eroding thoughtfulness. Um, so those are those are just one of my concerns.

SPEAKER_04

This episode will be airing around the time of uh Father's Day of 2026. And uh I've gotten a chance to meet all three of your boys, your young men, and you are a great dad uh from the little windows in that I get to see. Uh, and uh just watching you attend uh to their uh them conversationally and sitting with them. The cafeteria at lunch and just some of the conversations and prayers we've had over many years together on the board. Um, being part of a board is a special gift. I'm sure many have um who are listeners are on boards and you know at in in advisory or governance capacities, but it's a fun community because we get to kind of keep track with each other over time, you know, multiple times per year. And um yeah, what what's what are some of your uh your father hacks that you would share with us? What's your perspective today about the opportunity of fatherhood, the challenges of fatherhood?

SPEAKER_01

A quick pause from that interview to say that today's episode is brought to you by Man in the Mirror. If you're not yet familiar, Man in the Mirror launched Spiritual Fathers, a resource designed to equip mature Christian men to intentionally mentor and disciple younger men who are looking for direction, encouragement, and spiritual guidance. Through training, community, and structured pathways, this initiative helps build meaningful relationships that shape faith and leadership for the next generation. If you've ever felt called to invest in someone else's spiritual growth, this is a simple, practical tool to help you step in. All right, back to the interview.

SPEAKER_02

Well, you know, it's interesting. I I had a I had a mentor who told me once, I was asking him how he was doing. He had he raised four incredible uh daughters, Love Jesus, very mature. And I was checking in on him because his youngest daughter was just leaving the house to go off to college. And I said, Man, how are you doing? And he goes, Man, just when I feel like I'm figuring out fatherhood, my youngest leaves. And that's exactly how I feel now with a 25, 23, 21-year-old. I feel like I'm just now um figuring out fatherhood. The young adult phase is uh is a completely different phase. I find myself listening a lot more. I find myself almost more like a consultant asking questions. Um, but I think one of the, when I look back, Corey and I talk about this all the time, ton of mistakes, ton of mistakes. One of the things I feel like that just has served us really well. So one of the things we did well was we didn't try to cookie-cutter our kids. Our kids are three incredibly different people and trying to, as Proverbs talks about, raise them up according to their unique wiring, their unique bent. But here's where the art of parenting comes, and that is trying to do it, but not coming across as if you're playing favorites, because you know, the other kids are keeping scores. But golly, man, you know, one of my kids is an introvert, another's an uber extrovert. So if I tell the introvert, your punishment is go to your room, I mean, they're gonna love that. Like it's just it's just a big art. Uh, but I'm grateful for that. And encouraging them in that has been huge. I asked my kids uh a couple months ago, what do you remember most about my fathering? And uh without hesitating, they they each said, the breakfast is bad. And I'm like, no, I need you to say Disney World. I spent a lot of money on Disney World. Like, I need you to say that. And it's just amazing. What they remember is the relationship stuff, the fishing trips. Uh it's the simple stuff, you know, once a week. We'd stop by, we'd do a Bible study at Panera Bread as I'm taking them to school. That's the stuff that that sticks one thing we're learning about young men.

SPEAKER_04

I have two two daughters and a son uh in their 20s. We have kids about the same age, but what do you learn about the new phase of life where they're out on their own as young adults?

SPEAKER_02

Yeah, you know, um, and I I'd be curious if you feel this given I've always had a bit of a platform, like whether it's at the church or national stuff, um they've always they've always been in my shadow a little bit. And now that they're stretching out, which is great to see, um, I've gotta be very careful. Um I'm learning not to give them unsolicited advice. My kids, I'm not saying kids in general, my kids hear unsolicited advice as not good enough. And I think there's there's uber sensitivity to that. I keep the door open and I'm like, hey, um, I'd I'd love to I'd love to help um in any way I can. The the other thing that's really challenging to me is probably the most challenging thing about this season, is I I gotta stand back and let my kids make make their own choices. And sometimes I'm like, ooh, that's not a good choice. Like you're standing on a train track and the train's coming, and I want to help you, but you're not taking my help or you're not asking, and then letting them live with the consequences of their choices, good or bad. Like that's tough. Like that's that's really tough for me.

SPEAKER_04

So well, it's interesting because another thing that's similar between the two of us is um we're both uh sons of pastors, and uh I I'm in ministry, not direct church ministry, but uh I always think about Barna as a ministry organization, even though we're uh we're a company and all the rest. Uh so are both of our kids, both both sets of our kids are in the shadow of us in ministry, but we grew up in the shadow of prominent, successful, as you might measure it, um, fathers. What what did you learn from your dad? And you know, kind of what kept you as a now you're a second generation church leader. What was your grandfather? Was he uh your your dad's dad? What did he do?

SPEAKER_02

Oh no, he was um he played in the Negro Leagues for a little bit, and then he was a uh truck driver um um for uh for a grocery store. Interesting.

SPEAKER_04

One of my heroes, so many people who love. I mean, I just heard about him speaking at an event a couple months ago, and people crawford crushed it, you know, that kind of thing. So, what's it like for you creating your own, your own identity as a minister of the gospel, as a father? I know you learned a lot of things from him. Um, how are you trying to like raise your sons now in light of what you experienced?

SPEAKER_02

Yeah, man, my dad never pressured me to go into vocational ministry. In fact, the vibe he gave off was almost like, are you sure, son? You why don't you be an entrepreneur? Why don't you do something else? You know, it was almost offensive. Like, you know, I was kind of waiting on him to get really, really excited. And he was, but I could also tell, and and in hindsight, he never said this. I should probably have this conversation. I think any hesitancy I felt from him was I think he just knew the hits I would take, and he knew kind of the behind the curtain of ministry and the disappointments that were bound to come our way. And I think he wanted to steer me in a different direction. Um, and then I went through this phase early on in my ministry where I have a very unique last name, Loritz. People hear it with a prominent dad. They're immediately making a connection. I'm wanting to carve my own way. So, man, I literally, I grew up in Atlanta, but I literally moved to the other side of the country, California, because I wanted to try as best as I can to get some distance from his shadow. Um, and so our relationship was never contentious, but we did go through a period where um it wasn't as close as I could tell that he wanted, wasn't contentious, but wasn't as close. I feel like the last couple of decades of my life, man, it's as close as ever. Um, and the relationship is great. I just had to go through that, that I will call it whatever, that manhood process, that professional process of figuring out my own lane, you know, getting some wins under my belt. Um, and that's that's proven to be really therapeutic and helpful to our relationship.

SPEAKER_04

So you know, I love my my dad, Gary Kenneman, uh Nail My Kenneman. People are like, hey, you Gary's son, you know. And uh that's been sweet in the years since. But my still he's he is an amazing man of God, amazing, funny, you know, interesting, always interested in different things. And try to take him overseas this uh this year to go see some historical sites, his love language. And uh, and so I think we've been growing closer and closer. And um, yeah, it's a it's a it's a neat gift. Even maybe as we think about fatherhood and uh Father's Day, maybe what's a question you would want your listeners, our listeners to uh to be thinking about when it comes to to their relationship with their dad?

SPEAKER_03

Question. Yeah, so here's what's fascinating to me, David.

SPEAKER_02

I am having young adult sons is proving to be a master class in how I and how my dad views me. What I mean by that is um man, when my sons call me just to check in, and they're not they're not calling me for money, which I'm happy to give. They're not calling me because they but when they're just when they're taking steps towards me and initiating a relationship, no, Dan, just call and check in. Bro, like like I I I'm 10 feet tall. And then and then I'm humbled because I'm like, man, I I have this posture, I'm still a little boy sometimes in my thinking towards my dad, and I'm waiting for him to take steps towards me. But then my sons are showing me that when the son takes the step towards the dad, and I'm going, got it. I need to do better at initiating with my dad. And sure enough, same thing. When I call my dad, like, hey man, I'm gonna be in town, I'm gonna bring my golf clubs, let's get in around. Man, he's giddy. He's giddy. So my that's the thing, is I'm wrestling with, I'm always now looking for how can I initiate, how can I take steps towards because that's what my kids are doing.

SPEAKER_04

That'll preach, brother, because you've got you've got so many different uh ways that you know uh we think about in our in our in our business, our relationship with our fathers, uh, who we are, who we're becoming, especially as so much of our connections to like as we were talking about the first part of our interview, the um the connections to our our careers are changing because of AI, and like what our dads or mothers did might not be what we the world that we live in, and the vocations are going to be different. Um, but but then it also I think there's something spiritual about like when we pursue God, who is always in pursuit of us, there is also something that's available and accessible to us as we approach uh our father God.

SPEAKER_03

Yeah, a hundred percent, a hundred percent.

SPEAKER_02

And it's uh it's also teaching me about grace, you know. Um, my kids show me profound grace. And um and and that encourages me to continue to show grace to my own dad. So, you know, if you're if you're tapping in, I I many of you probably come from homes where, you know, your your dad was nowhere near the man he should have been. And uh I'd encourage you to wrestle with the question of grace and what does that look like to give your dad what he doesn't deserve.

SPEAKER_04

Well, a little segue here, I want to um ask you about something that if you're a viewer, not just a listener, uh in Brian's room, there's a piece of art on his wall, and you just so happen to adjust it before we started. So I'm gonna ask you to go back to that uh for our uh for our listeners, you'll describe it, and then uh for our viewers, they'll be able to see it. But uh that's a pretty intriguing little piece of art, buddy. And I'd love for you to describe it and where it came from, what I mean.

SPEAKER_02

No, I'm I'm I'm not a narcissist, okay? So when I I I planted the church some years ago called Fellowship Memphis, and uh one year to honor and appreciate me, the staff uh got me this. And it what it is around, so you see my name, Brian LaRitz, and around it are kind of one-word descriptions or phrases that the staff said came to mind when they thought of me. And my love language is words of affirmation. So man, I got that and it was game over for me. I was I was so excited. I think they all got raises that year, Kinnerman. But yeah, that's uh that that's what that is. It's it's a reminder of our church uh in Memphis, and it's it's it's a reminder of the great team that that God blessed me to watch.

SPEAKER_04

One of the things that I have on my wall is uh it says Master Builder at Work. And uh it has uh it was the 10-year anniversary of me buying the company from the founder, George Barna. And uh they all have little inscriptions, little handwritten things around uh the way they see me as a leader. So, you know, I think those are those are very meaningful. I think the reason that I uh caught my attention, in addition, because it's like what before we we started um recording, you you went up and fixed it because it was just a tiny bit of skew. And I love the I love the uh the anal side of want to make sure those things are straight, because that can relate. But um, I also see something about that, it it struck me because I've been thinking about like how cool would it be if um, and again, for for our our listeners, it's it's got his name on it, and it's got you know, maybe, maybe 20 or 30, 40, maybe different words that people would have said about you. I can see focused and loving and committed and mindful and disciplined and passionate and caring. Um, I didn't think you were a narcissist until you said you weren't. You you think you may think you protest too much. But but I uh I actually think that I've had this uh vision in my mind, and I wonder what you think about it. You know, Ephesians 2.10, uh God's made us to be a masterpiece, created in Christ Jesus to do good works. And these things have been set in motion before time began, right? Like the this this notion of a destiny. And uh I've been thinking about how cool it'd be if every person who graduated from uh from youth group to go off to college as a young adult, uh our our sons, our daughters could come out of their experience with the church, knowing how much they are loved and seen and a word cloud. It's like it's in in the art behind Brian for our listeners is a word cloud. Um, how cool would it be if we if we could give everyone the gift of that words of affirmation?

SPEAKER_02

Yeah. You just gave me a great idea. I mean, that that would be great to do. You know, we we got a guy leaving our team, he's gonna go plant a church over in South Africa. Yeah, I know. Yeah, that that that would be huge, significant, you know, especially in an age of where so many people are processing church hurt, you know, what would it look like, you know, when God calls them on from a church family if their small group got together or whatever and just loved on them in that way.

SPEAKER_04

Huge. You know, that's a very particular example of it, and I think it's a great one. And I think that um in this time of uh tracking back to our conversation a bit ago, you know, with AI and other things disrupting the questions of like, what will I be? You know, you graduate with a degree today, and you know, students just this last graduation season, they're booing any mention of AI because they realize it's got such a huge kind of like grim reaper reality to what they thought their life might be like. And so I wonder if the church could be um calling us not just to what value we create, even though there is a reason why we should be workers and do things, but also like who we are as people. And whether you're leaving to go to South Africa, like the pastor you're mentioning, but also someone uh in your church who's you know just growing up and wondering what am I going to become? There could be a really interesting way that that kind of physical expression of a word cloud piece art, not just for the narcissist among us, but for everyone. Yeah, that's cool. Yeah, that's well as we uh as we wrap up our interview, um, just what's an encouraging thing? Something something fun you're doing this summer.

SPEAKER_03

Oh gosh.

SPEAKER_02

So yeah, we we're not taking an official vacation. We're gonna do some fun stuff this fall. Um uh that's gonna involve my wife's beloved Chicago Bears. She's a huge Bears fan, and we're getting tickets to that. Um, but we are, I'm gonna come to California. Um, I gotta speak at an event here in a couple weeks, and we're gonna take a couple uh from our church that we really vibe and connect with, and we're gonna add on like three days after the event, and we're gonna we're gonna hang out. Uh, I'm gonna take my um my son on a ministry trip uh with me. Um so he's really, really excited about that. So we got a we got a couple things. We're gonna do a little bit of a staycation. I'm gonna play a ton of golf. Um, and um, and then um my wife is actually um, she grew up in Arizona. Um, and so we'll we'll we'll spend a little time out there. Um, but Arizona in the summer, I need my head examined, man. So fair enough.

SPEAKER_04

Well, I grew up in Phoenix, so I uh I we'll I'll I'll give you the name of the doctor who can who can check check your temperatures. Um your last comment made me just think of like a bonus round, which is like, how do you choose as a person who's public with a lot of people in the local congregation, uh, who you invite to be like really close friends, like travel friends? And how do you, you know, obviously you just you can't have the relational surface area to be close to everyone who would want to be close to you. How do you and Corey, your wife, um make decisions about that? How do you triage that? How do you like protect your personal like friendships? And you know, like it's great to be close with people, to be disclose whether you're not people that are your congregants necessarily, you know, meaningful friendships where they're not just like, hey, you know, I see you as only the pastor, but like, how do you how do you triage the sort of the inner circle and circles of relationships that you have as a leader?

SPEAKER_02

Brilliant question. Brilliant question. Yeah, almost like we did the whole podcast on this. Number one, we have um, you know, a lot of people, and understandably so. I mean, as a pastor, you take so many relational dings um over time that a lot of my friends uh in the past are just like, eh, I'm not even gonna try to have friendships with the people I minister to. That's actually kind of how I was trained. Don't even think about it. And I get it. Uh, we've actually kind of rejected that. Um, and so some of our closest friends throughout the years, especially friends as couples, we were in a marriage group at our church in Memphis. We started a marriage group here, but that was slow going. We dated a whole, we dated for like a year and a half, like a group of like five couples. They didn't realize we were dating them. And you know how this is. You hang out with another couple, you know, I come back and like, oh, he's awesome. And my wife's like, never want to hang with her again, or vice versa, right? So, so it takes time. So we're in a marriage group, and our marriage group's been going for almost three years now. It's phenomenal. And then within that is a particular couple that we really connect with. But here's the thing, and I hate it, man. It's sometimes you go, are we in middle school? Like they'll take a picture, put it on social media, and then I'll I'll get a bunch of snarky comments, a steady drip of them, of it really does feel like middle school. Uh, I didn't know y'all were that close, and why did they get to, and that sort of a thing. So you you gotta be careful. But when I do my cost-benefit analysis, Kenneman, I I can deal with some middle school behavior because the long-term benefit is, man, I need to be known. Um, and I I need to be able to do life with people and be pressed into and encouraged and and the whole nine. So I'm more fearful of what isolation looks like than with having a vacation couple who posts a picture on social media that opens up to a whole bunch of immaturity.

SPEAKER_04

So yeah, yeah, that's good. We should do another podcast on that because that's a that is a whole set of dynamics, I think, for leaders today, especially with uh with social media, because of the questions of like why did that person get invited? Hey, that's so great. We're here with Brian Loritz, not only a great friend, uh author of lots of great books, finishing up a book. We were just talking about that a few minutes ago. I love you, appreciate you. Uh, my words of affirmation is that you're uh courageous, uh, you're a strong leader, you're quiet when the moment requires, you speak up when the moment requires. I admire you, I appreciate you. You're a great dad, great husband, cares so much.

SPEAKER_02

I can't tell you how much I appreciate you. And um, I've I've I've of course I can say the humility, the the intelligence, the way you serve the body, but even seeing you navigate some of the storms of life um has been a tremendous blessing to me. And um and you you know what I mean by that. So um I love you and always held you in the highest.

SPEAKER_04

I'm gonna get a poster of all those words printed for my wall. And just gonna say like from Brian LaRitz, this is what he said about me. Thank you. That was a lot.

SPEAKER_03

Yes, yes, not a nurse. Yes.

SPEAKER_04

All right, thanks for so much for joining on the Faith and Culture Report. Uh, this is David Canneman uh with my guest Brian LaRitz, and uh thanks so much again for joining us.

SPEAKER_01

I'm so glad we got to have that conversation with Brian. I mean, of course, hearing from two different dads is always so exciting. And so I would love to hear, David. I mean, for you, of course, you are a father of three.

SPEAKER_04

Yep.

SPEAKER_01

And I mean, what are what are you marinating on now?

SPEAKER_04

Well, I think uh I could reflect back on the journey I've had as a dad and the power of these great resources and friendships to make me a better dad. Um, I think about a friendship with John Tyson, uh, who some of our conversations uh just helped me really wrestle with uh some of the questions I had as a dad about a decade or so ago with my with my son Zach, especially, but also with my daughters. Um that conversation actually turned into the resource called Intentional Father.

SPEAKER_00

Cool.

SPEAKER_04

And just like the need that we all have as dads to have a path for what we're trying to do with our kids, with our sons. And um, so with with uh Brian, having been friends with him for just such a long time, I can, you know, say that when I see him interacting with his adult sons, uh, we're on a board together at Biola and just get to see uh him, him like taking them to lunch, interviewing them, talking to them, and meeting meeting their friends on campus, it's really cool. And so Brian's such a great guy. But I think this larger, this larger need that we have of like, what is the pathway? What are the ways we could be better, better fathers? And uh I think about my son Zach and and um just pray praying for praying for him, praying for my daughters Emily and Annika, realizing now as adult children, you know, I don't have the quite the same influence, but the a different kind of influence, a deeper influence, a friendship that's based now on wanting the best for them and um you know just staying in in deep friendship with them. So, you know, this need that we have that the church can come alongside fathers. We're talking specifically about fathers today, but also for mothers and for those who would like to be moms or dads, or for those who have tried and haven't been able to be moms or dads.

SPEAKER_01

Spiritual moms and dads, which is essentially everyone is a spiritual mom or dad to someone.

SPEAKER_04

But we all need a map to the kind of place we're trying to get. And I think I think research and some of these conversations can be really important wayfinding tools.

SPEAKER_01

Yeah, I I totally agree. It's funny what you said has me thinking, my dad, who is amazing, gave me a sort of spiritual resource toolkit as I was going off to college. He handed me these packets of essays that he'd written on sort of the theological, historical, scientific evidence for Christianity and sort of principles, biblical principles to live by. And it stuck with me that, you know, my mom for a lot of my life was kind of that key spiritual prayer warrior, and both of my parents have a strong faith. But my dad, I remember I'm walking out the door heading to Boston, and uh he just hands me these packets and he's like, read these. And no, you can always call me and we can always talk through this. And it's a sort of, he created toolkits and a map for me and my faith. And I, you know, it's even emotional thinking back to that moment and how significant it was. And to be fair, my 18, 17, 18-year-old self, I don't know if I read through the entirety of both packets, but also the symbolic meaning. I read through some of them. Don't worry, dad, if you're listening, I I read some of them. But he handed me a map, a spiritual map. And I think back, oh, I wonder who handed him a map. You know, was it my grandpa or my grandma? Was it a pastor? Uh my parents, you know, met through a youth ministry on a mission trip at their church and high school. And their youth pastor, I think, was probably one of those significant people who handed them a map. And so I I love that that visual.

SPEAKER_04

Yeah, the dad difference.

SPEAKER_01

The dad difference.

SPEAKER_04

That's great. What a what a cool story.

SPEAKER_01

Yeah, it is. Well, I I'm so, so thrilled and my heart is warmed with Father's Day and just talking about fatherhood. Uh, so you know, thank you all for listening. And if today's conversation resonated with you, if it moved you, if you learned something new, please make sure to share it with a friend. Uh, subscribe, follow the Faith and Culture report wherever you listen to podcasts. There's usually a little follow button and leave us a review. If you like this episode, reviews are the best way that new people can actually find our podcast and join the conversation. So, a quick final thank you to our partner, Man in the Mirror, for sponsoring today's episode. Through their Spiritual Fathers initiative, they're helping men invest in the next generation through mentorship and discipleship. You can learn more at maninthemir.org. Let's keep discerning the data together. We're so grateful you're here, and we'll see you on the next episode of the Barna Faith and Culture Report.