The Barna Faith and Culture Report

07 | Mike Kelsey on Leading Through Pressure & Political Division

• Barna Group • Season 1 • Episode 7

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In this episode, Ashley LaLonde sits down with Mike Kelsey, pastor at McLean Bible Church in the DC metro area, to explore new Barna data on pastoral burnout — including that 38% of pastors who have considered leaving full-time ministry cite political divisions as a primary reason. Together, they unpack what it looks like to lead a multi-ethnic congregation through charged cultural moments, the difference between righteous anger and algorithm-driven outrage, and why the church must choose to be discipled by the Word rather than the world.

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SPEAKER_02

Welcome to the Barna Faith and Culture Report. My name is Ashley Lalonde, and I'm here with my amazing co-host David Kinneman, and we're so excited to dive into the stats with you. On today's episode, we discuss the challenges pastors are facing in our current cultural moment. We've got a great interview lined up with Mike Kelsey. This is the Faith and Culture Report. Today's episode is brought to you by Glue, a core partner we're super grateful for here at Barna. Their mission is simple: shape technology for good so leaders like you and me have the tools we need and actually trust. Barna teamed up with Glue for our State of the Church Research Initiative, and we've put together a free resource for you. It's called 10 Trends Shaping Faith, Culture, and the Future of the Church. Head on over to Barna.com slash 10trends to download it or find the link waiting for you in the show notes. Hey David, how you doing?

SPEAKER_00

Hey Ashley, how's it going?

SPEAKER_02

Great, great. I'm so excited for this episode and to chat with Mike soon. But before we get into that, what's some good news?

SPEAKER_00

Well, my friend told me that uh we won a lot one of the lottery slots for uh to hike my Mount Whitney in California. So I love hiking. Uh it's one of my favorite things to do, and you can't always get some of those uh those exclusive slots, so that's coming up later this year. It's uh it's the highest peak in the lower 48. Wow. It's over 14,000 foot tall. I've done some 14,000 foot peaks in Colorado, but it's a pretty long one, so we'll have to camp and then do the do the summit and then come back down. So that's coming up later this year. That's some good news for me. How about you?

SPEAKER_02

Wow, okay. Well, I'll say, you know, weather is a warm, and one of my husband Noah's favorite things is food festivals. And it's also one of my favorite things, but I'll say it for Noah, it's a love language. And so getting to show up in one location and try a bunch of different foods. He's a huge dumpling fanatic, but our favorite food festival in New York is alive and well, and it's called Schmorgishburg. It is just excellent, and our favorite location of it uh is in Williamsburg in Brooklyn, and it's right along the water. So you actually have a little bit of like beach access, not swimmable beach, but beach access, and you have a view of the downtown New York skyline.

SPEAKER_00

Amazing. It's called Schmorgishburg. It's like a consonantality.

SPEAKER_02

I know. Well, good thing I'm a singer and I've got I've got that enunciation, hopefully. There you go. But if anyone's ever in New York, again, not sponsored by Schmorgishburg, but it is just so dang good. New York prices, what can you do?

SPEAKER_00

Well, the episode is not the quad. Is not uh sponsored by Schmorgersburg or Mount Whitney, it turns out.

SPEAKER_02

Unfortunately. Maybe in the future. Well, David, what's our one number for today?

SPEAKER_00

Uh our number, one number for today is 38. And that is the percent of pastors who have considered quitting because of our current political divisions. Wow. 38%. And so that was third on the list after immense stress of the job and the loneliness and isolation. Those are maybe more like evergreen, like they're always there. And leadership, my dad was a lifelong pastor of a big church in Arizona. Uh, leadership is always challenged, no matter what kind of leader you are. But to lead a church, you're sort of uh responsible for everything, but in charge of nothing. And uh there's this idea of trying to lead people spiritually to places they may or may not really want to travel, uh, but they want your help. And so um, we're gonna talk about that topic of the challenges of leadership. But 38 is our number for the day, the current political divisions, uh, one of the challenges uh that are uh being expressed today by pastors.

SPEAKER_02

Sure, and it is so interesting because uh sure there's just broad political divisions, polarization, etc. Um, but within the church, there is a there's so much division. And so I'm sure, you know, I'm at a church in New York and there's political diversity probably within every congregation to some extent. But I think churches particularly that have more diversity within them, I don't just mean ethnic or racial, but on every front, now now pastors are having to manage expectations and do they preach about politics? Do they not? If they do, how explicit do you get? And you know, Christians uh we have some data on whether Christians want to hear pastors' thoughts on politics, and then we also have another set of data that talks about whether pastors even want to or feel equipped to talk about politics. So it's just so interesting that this is right up there with, like you said, two evergreen issues, which in any leadership role, there's stress and there can be loneliness. I think particularly for pastors around the loneliness piece is the sense I get. But um, you know, just what are our pastors having to deal with in 2026 America? And what pressure do we as congregants sometimes put on pastors? You know, what expectations do we have?

SPEAKER_00

Yeah, not to mention some of the challenges now that are coming with uh the rise of AI.

SPEAKER_02

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00

And where do people turn for spiritual discernment and guidance? I mean, in some ways it's no no different than the internet and the capabilities of finding about anything anywhere, sort of the gospel according to YouTube. Yes. Uh but um we look forward to talking to Mike about some of these varieties of the variety of pressures uh that uh the church is facing, church leaders leaders are facing today.

SPEAKER_02

Absolutely. Well, let's get on into that. If you don't yet know Mike, Mike Kelsey is lead pastor at McLean Bible Church and an elder. Born into a strong lineage of Washington, D.C. pastors that includes both his father and his grandfather. Mike grew up with a strong foundation in the gospel. He's married to his college sweetheart, Ashley, and they have three young children. All right, let's welcome Mike. Well, Mike, thank you so much for joining. We're so excited. I've personally been looking forward to this interview. So appreciate you coming on to the Faith and Culture Report.

SPEAKER_01

Ashley, thanks so much. I love what y'all do at Barna and I've learned so much. Uh, so it's an honor to be on.

SPEAKER_02

Well, we're honored truly. Uh, I want to give you our one number for the day. So if you're familiar at the Faith and Culture Report, we always start the episodes with one number. That is the framing. That's the one stat that we want our audience to really sit with and marinate on. So our one number for today is 38. 38% of pastors who have considered quitting full-time ministry ranked current political divisions as one of the primary reasons why. It ranked third after only stress and loneliness. So I'm curious, what do you make of that? What's your knee-jerk initial reaction?

SPEAKER_01

Man, I don't, I can't resonate with that at all. Uh, I know nothing about political division, conflict. You know, our church, um, so I'm uh serving at McLean Bible Church. I've been there now almost 20 years, uh, next year, uh, from the DC metro area. Um, my father is a pastor in DC. Uh, my mom's dad uh was a pastor in DC for over 40 years. So people always ask me, what's it like, you know, pastoring in the DC area? And for better or for worse, uh, whatever this is here is just normal to me. And there are so many people in this area whose livelihoods and careers. And I think part of what that stat reflects is that there are a lot of people whose identity is also tied into uh their political affiliation or their particular convictions, uh, or even a candidate. And so, yeah, we've gone through a lot as a church family uh over the years that I've been here, but more intensely uh uh post-2016 and certainly since 2020. And uh that's that resonates with I would say my experience, our experience as a church, but also the conversations I have with different pastors and leaders around the country. Um, politics is always kind of divisive, especially in election seasons. But it seems like this season we've been in, uh, however you want to mark, the length of that season has been uniquely intense. And so uh it affects us, man, because we say one thing uh and we try to be balanced or we try to be clear uh from scripture, but that gets heard through uh a filter. Um, and those filters are given uh to people through social media and their political preferences, and then it it kind of goes viral. So it's been tough. It's been tough.

SPEAKER_02

Yeah, you're so right that so many, I mean, I've seen, I'm sure all of us have clips of different pastors and different key leaders that are taken completely out of context. Oh, yeah. Made to mean something entirely different than the initial intent. So I imagine even in the digital age of consumption and social media and reels and TikToks, it's probably even more heightened. It's like that overlapping with the political and cultural climate is just a sort of explosive. It is uh space.

SPEAKER_01

Yeah, and I I mean to be fair, I've been guilty of it. Um, and I think for anybody who's listening, leaders or otherwise, I think this whole conversation needs to start. You know, Jesus said, um, you know, take the plank out your own eye, you know, before you try to pluck the splinter out of somebody else's eye. And I think we have to start with uh self-evaluation because we are all caught up in this moment that we find ourselves in. Um, and uh so I certainly have seen a clip or had somebody send me a clip, and then I pop off, whether in that conversation with a person, or, you know, uh, man, I've definitely popped off online uh just prematurely, or even just in my own heart. I remember one time uh there was so much going on in our church, so much conflict uh around uh just different political events, um, racial tension, uh, police brutality, all these things that were this perfect storm. And I remember one day um talking to my wife, I got home at the end of the day, and she stopped me in my tracks and she looked me in my eyes and she said, Mike, you are consumed with anger. And I'll never forget that. She said, You are consumed with anger. And she was like, I don't know what you need to do, but here, I got the kids. You go do whatever you need to do. And I remember going and just opening Ephesians 4 and just sitting in that chapter. Uh, and there's a lot of good stuff in that chapter. You know, be uh angry and do not sin. Don't let any unwholesome speech, you know, proceed out of your mouth. There's just so much. Let everything you do be done in love. And I just remember the Holy Spirit confirming what my wife said that I was not filled with the spirit. I was filled with, I was being controlled by anger, and that anger was being fed to me by an algorithm. And uh, and it was an illuminating moment for me because I was just like, do you want to be sought and light? Do you want to be an influence, a godly influence in the culture that God has put you in? Or do you just want to be a reflection of that culture and controlled by the dynamics in that culture? So I think it's important for us to start with us and how all of this affects us so that we can kind of be in the right place to show up in the ways God wants us to show up.

SPEAKER_02

Wow, I love that. And I appreciate just the humility and honesty in that because it's so, so easy in this conversation and in many to point a finger, to look at the speck in someone else's eye. But I love that your initial response is where can I check my heart? Where can I check my motives? Where can I check? You know, you talked about the anger that was being fed to you by an algorithm. Because of course, we know in the kingdom, but there's righteous anger at injustice and wrongdoing. But there is also an anger that has methodologically been like literally wired to make us feel a type of way through an algorithm. And those things are different, you know, and so I just appreciate that. It also makes me think of the analogy of a thermostat and a thermometer, where a thermostat gets to set the temperature of a room and a thermometer picks up the temperature of everything around it. And I just love that as a leader, I think the call for every Christian leader, for every believer, someone following the way of Jesus, we want to be a thermostat. We want to stand there and say, no, this is the temperature I bring into the room.

SPEAKER_01

Yeah. Yeah. And I love that you said there is righteous anger. Uh, and there are things in our culture, our society that we should be angry about and we should let that anger be known. I think where I was convicted, and um, I think we all have to be careful, is that the anger of man does not produce the righteousness of God. And so there is a righteous anger that comes from God that reflects his heart when we see injustice, when we see the vulnerable being taken advantage of, when we see corruption and leadership, there is a righteous anger, but it's supposed to produce righteousness. And so many times the anger that we have, that we claim is righteous anger, is actually producing unrighteousness in our hearts, in our thoughts, in our words, and our reactions, in the ways that we perceive uh the people around us. Uh, and even in the ways, I mean, talking to pastors, even in the ways we end up viewing the people in our church, that we no longer have uh long suffering with them, we no longer speak the truth and love. Uh, we just embody cancel culture even within uh our our church family. So uh I think there is a place, you know, for for anger. And quite frankly, there are times when I wish more pastors and leaders would express that righteous anger um uh in healthy ways. But uh yeah, we what the Holy Spirit very clearly convicted me with a question. Um, do you want to be helpful or do you just want to be heard? And I had to sit with that. And I was like, yo, I just I don't really care about being helpful right now. I'm just trying to let this off, you know what I mean? Um, but uh, but my role as a pastor and as a Christian um is to represent the kingdom of God, and that means also representing the character um and priorities of God. And so uh we're in a moment where Christians are gonna feel all the things, uh, and then we have to filter those feelings and submit those feelings to Jesus and to the uh control of the Holy Spirit so that it produces what God wants it to produce.

SPEAKER_02

Amen. Amen to all that. I'm curious for you, really practically, what does it look like leading through an election season, leading through a big political moment where naturally having you know a big church in, you know, what the capital of the country, literally, and it's multi-ethnic, multicultural, probably have people across the spectrum. What does it look like for you on a Sunday to stand up and and give a sermon when something very big has just happened in the political climate that week? How do you approach that? Yeah.

SPEAKER_01

Yeah, I mean, so our church, there it's a hundred nations, uh over a hundred nations represented in our church, a high percentage of people who either weren't born in America or or first generation. Um, we have um, I mean, we just did a congregational survey. We're 48% white, like 26% Asian American, 22% black, 11% Latino. It's very, very diverse church. And the reason I bring that up is because that creates some real, it's beautiful and it creates some real challenges. And what I find is in a lot of conversations about diversity, we celebrate diversity, um, but we are not prepared, and we and a lot of us don't even have the willingness to engage the challenges associated with that. We don't just have a superficial diversity, meaning a bunch of people with different skin tones, who maybe speak different languages. No, there's real cultural diversity, and with that, it's gonna bring some real political diversity as well. And so the way we've decided to lead, there's one way to lead through it is to say we don't talk about politics here, um, which is uh at best a noble idea. Uh, at worst, it's um it's just a cover-up to kind of smuggle in your own political convictions um in the name of what's what's biblical. Um and so what we've decided to do is say, hey, we want to create spaces where we actually surface our differences and we equip our congregation on how do we engage, how do we talk, how do we see a person who differs from us. Um and so uh we we lean into those issues in our preaching. Uh we uh equip our group leaders to have those conversations, particularly intense cultural moments. We do uh training seminars and workshops where we'll put people around the table and we'll literally ask them, Who did you vote for in the 2024 election? Um talk about it and why. Um, because we if if we're not practicing what it's like to be honest, and then to be gracious when we hear a response that frustrates us, uh confuses us, and we don't have the emotional capacity to hold that space, to ask questions, to lean in with curiosity, uh, then all we're doing, man, is just gathering people together and then sending them back out to be a hot mess with the name of Jesus attached to it. So uh we've just decided, we what we say in our church is we're we're gonna either be discipled by the word or we're gonna be discipled by the world. Um there's no in-between, there's no neutral. Uh you're being discipled one way or another. And so we want to help disciple each other with the word, which means we have to name the things that uh where we have differences, because if we don't, differences become division, and then that division becomes like hostility. And we've walked that journey, we've seen it. And a lot of churches, to be honest with you, who just try to sweep these differences under the rug of quote unquote unity, all it does is it pushes that stuff down, um, which normally means it's it's really gonna be cultural minorities, ethnic, racial minorities that whose opinions uh get pushed down. But then that stuff just bubbles underneath the surface until the next George Floyd, until the next presidential election. Um, and uh, and so we're like, nah, we want to be discipling our people to be prepared to be like Jesus in those in those moments. And we have not done it right uh 100% of the time. Um, I haven't for sure, uh, but we we've learned from it, we're learning from it, and our church knows hey, we we y'all gotta be on this journey with us because we're going on the journey. Um, and uh and we want to do it together in in ways that make us more like Jesus.

SPEAKER_02

Wow. I'm so encouraged and even challenged by that because I do think that the the two binaries that I typically see, and I think the most common are either, you know, a very clear political stance from the pulpit, um, you know, clear support for one candidate or another, or a sort of we're not gonna really talk about it, you know, vote your conscience. And and I'm not saying, well, you know, I have my personal perspective on how I would approach it, but I'm also not a pastor. And so this is this is not my jurisdiction. And so I'm appreciating hearing, oh, actually, we get that real about it. We we gather people at a table who are part of the same church family, and we have them say the thing. Because you're right, there is um it's almost like an exposure therapy. Like that was the first thing that came to mind is you know, not we'll have to get into therapy and psychology speak, but as a social science practice, we would call that exposure therapy, where absolutely you know, if you would feel quote unquote triggered or uncomfortable or very reactive hearing someone say this on the news or at the family dinner table, how about you have your friend from a small group say it to you and just and check yourself, check your reaction. What happens in my soul when I hear hear my friend or maybe my perceived enemy say X, Y, and Z? So I just love that. I'm really encouraged. I am curious, is that a regular do you have that regularly throughout your church season, or is that centered around elections and heightening moments?

SPEAKER_01

We uh we're learning as we go. Um we it it started uh more reactively uh because we were just in the thick of a lot of conflict. And so we did a whole, we kind of wrote our whole, our own little systematic theology of uh race and justice. Uh, we walked um a bunch of people, like a thousand people. This was during COVID, so it was online, like a thousand people through this five-week journey of studying what scripture has to say about it uh and then applying it to current issues and and having conversations around it. And we've done the same thing around uh just uh public life and politics. And so we're trying to be more proactive now. Uh we kind of have a frame we call holistic discipleship, and one aspect of that is your engagement with the world. And so we want to be equipping our church family to engage with the world in Christ like, God honoring, people loving ways. So, uh yes, that includes evangelism and sharing the gospel, but it also includes uh how do you engage social media? What does it look like to have conversations at work? What does it look like to be a citizen in the United States and actively contribute to the public good? And so we just want to equip our people in those ways. And I will say, um, I do think as pastors, we have a responsibility to help shape and form the conscience of our people. Romans 12, 2 says, Don't be conformed to this world, but be transformed by the renewing of your mind. Um, so you can test and improve what God's will is. So as we preach, and and uh, you know, hopefully we're not just up there um using the pulpit as a platform for our own opinions. Uh, but as we're teaching through scripture, uh, I think it's a little cowardly to avoid application um to the issues that we know our people are wrestling with, that the issues that are forming our people. And I'll say that in a more uh, I think specific and direct way. I think a lot of times we choose what to say, what to address based on what the most powerful and influential people in our churches will think about it. Uh which you can imagine how that plays out in a multi-ethnic church, especially if it's predominantly white or uh or in any other setting where there's a predominant group, um, those biases can like really seep in and be driving us in ways that we're not even aware of. So we'll say things like, we're not political, we don't address politics. Uh, but then when abortion is on the table and that becomes a cultural conversation, we feel a moral obligation to talk to our people uh uh about uh what we should think and how we should believe and how we should mobilize around those issues. Well, you you are you are, you do get political and you are willing to address political issues. I think we have to reflect on why we are willing and maybe why do we why do we feel equipped to engage certain kinds of issues that tend to resonate with certain people who vote certain ways versus other issues. And we had to wrestle with those in real time in our church family. Um, and so uh we're still we're still learning, but I'm really thankful for the ways God has uh grown us.

SPEAKER_02

Wow, thank you for sharing that. I think you probably touched on so many sensitivities that many pastors are grappling with, and even Christian leaders, you know, and in the workplace who are navigating how do I talk to my friends and my family, um, especially when we're in, you know, such a cultural binary where it even, you know, to vote for this candidate means you agree with everything on this long list.

SPEAKER_03

Absolutely.

SPEAKER_02

And if you voted for this, everything on this long list. And the reality is, Christian or not, that's probably not true. And yet we tend to treat it that way. I appreciate also your comment about uh just who's whose interests are being protected or or honored in certain contexts, and you know, who are the the people in power who may have influence on the pastor? I even think about, you know, finances and all of these, the different relationships there. I'm curious for you as a pastor, do you have any practices to check in with your congregation? You said you mentioned a survey. Like, how do you really get a temperature check for how your congregation is doing?

SPEAKER_01

Uh, I mean, personally, so I've been in our church for a long time, and that helps because I just know kind of how these issues affect our church family. Practically speaking, uh, man, I'm real, I'm a pastor. I'm not just a public speaker. And so for me, uh one of the one of my favorite parts about Sunday is being in the lobby. Um, and I'm not making that like a law for anybody. I know there's a lot, I mean, pastors are tired. We got we're thinking about if you've got multiple services, you're thinking about I gotta change this. Or so I'm not saying every pastor has to do that. It has been very helpful to me, though, because immediately I'm getting feedback. Um and it's not always somebody crit crit uh being critical, it's just conversations with real people uh in our church family, their prayer requests. You know, that that brother that this just happened this Sunday, uh and and this is probably four people this past Sunday that came up to me uh who are asking me to pray. They're in tears, asking me to pray about their uh immigration status. Um, because if something doesn't change in the next 60 days, they're saying, hey, I'm I'm I'm out of here. Like I've I've been here for 20 years. Um, you know, that that changes, like talking to somebody in that way, or somebody who um uh a police officer who who uh is uh works hourly uh at security, you know, at our church, who I end up having a conversation with in the lobby. He's heard me say uh some pretty direct things over the years, um, and who is able to give me a window into his day-to-day life and the pressure that he feels uh as an African-American police officer. Uh, you know, and so uh I think one, just real conversations with real people. Um, I think leaning on the leaders in your church. And so we try to create spaces. Uh, we're a multi-site church, uh, um different locations. And so we have regular meetings uh with our campus pastors who have regular meetings with the leaders at their campuses. And so uh having those conversations to get a finger on the pulse, uh, and then trying to have an open, uh like honest type of culture and environment where people can send an email, um, they can request a conversation. I think those things are are critically important because all of us kind of have, I mean, you you mentioned it, like we're not these one-dimensional people. And so just that you vote this way, that means you you believe all these things. Well, that rarely survives contact with reality. Like when you, it may sound good on social, it may sound good on your particular cable news uh, you know, station, but when you talk to real people, you realize people are more complicated than that. They're more nuanced than that. And so in our church, uh, I mean, I tell people all the time, I grew up uh in PG County, Maryland. Uh, my dad's a pastor in Northeast DC, which which used to be at least Chocolate City. Um I grew up in all black, everything. Um, black church, black neighborhood, black, everything. Um, I never met, or at least was not aware that I knew any Christian Republican until I was definitely at least 23, 24 years old.

SPEAKER_02

Wow.

SPEAKER_01

Never. When I say that to people, they're like, what? Because in their experience, they've never met a Christian Democrat and to this point have believed nobody could ever possibly be a Christian and be a Democrat. Well, when you sit down and now we're able to talk uh and have real conversations, and you realize, especially in Christ, we're much closer to each other than uh the kind of the politicals would have us believe. Um, and so we can sharpen each other because we should, if we're in Christ and we believe the same Bible, we should share a lot of the same convictions. Um, and we may articulate them in slightly different ways, or because we're in this two-party system, we may vote in different ways, but we should find a lot of common ground together if we're actually engaging with the people in our church and we're we're not just teaching them, but we're learning from them and being shaped by them. Um, and so that's that's one of the joys for me of being uh in a church like ours, uh, because it really has shaped me uh to be a better listener, um a better man, a better Christian.

SPEAKER_02

Wow. Oh, so so good. I mean, there's there's so much there, and I just appreciate your candor too about your own grappling, about the things that have gone right, gone wrong as you've tried to put this into practice. So I'm curious if you had one word of warning for Christian leaders right now around this, and then one word of encouragement to them. What would it be?

SPEAKER_01

Man, there's a yeah, there's a lot of a lot in both of those categories. I'll tell you the thing that's top of mind right now. We just started a series in our church called Rise and Ruin, and it's studying uh the life of King Saul. And it starts in chapter eight, where the people want a king because they don't trust. I mean, you look at the context, they are uh they've lost confidence in their political system and their current leaders. Um, and quite frankly, they don't trust God to provide. And so they're like, we want a king like the other nations. And so God uh honestly in his judgment gives them what they want and says, but here's the tragedy of it all. Uh the thing that you think is gonna actually bring you freedom is actually gonna be something that compromises you, uh, enslaves you, um, actually leads you in a direction you don't want to go in. And so that's very top of mind for me right now. And I just want to warn Christian leaders we have to be careful not to sell our loyalty or compromise um our integrity in order to get what we want or what we think we want. And uh, like I said, I grew up, my dad's a pastor in DC, very, very active in the city, um, very politically active. I've watched my dad over decades navigate uh um civic engagement as a pastor. And I'm thankful uh he has his political convictions, uh, and and he's not quiet about that, but I've watched him refuse to be co-opted by a particular leader at a city level or or at a national level. I've seen him advocate for particular policies and even at times particular leaders. And then when they get out of pocket, uh I've watched him publicly call them to task and and lead and lead the church to say, hey, we gotta go with Jesus, uh, even if it causes us to part from uh what's politically comfortable. And so that's my warning, is just we gotta stand on uh on what Jesus has said, the Sermon on the Mount. Like we represent a different kingdom. And uh, and so be careful, man. And I think, I mean, just be real honest, and this this can be true for anybody uh of any culture uh in any political party. We are in a moment right now, though, where I think the evangelical church in America has to be extremely careful because there's a lot that sounds like uh it's in our best interest or it aligns with kingdom priorities. Uh and we just have to be very, very discerning to make sure that uh, man, we're not we're not selling our souls uh for more power, uh more access, um, and uh in ways, man, that'll downstream have some uh negative effects on our witness. Uh encouragement is these conversations. Um and this may seem like a weird encouragement, but one of the things that encourages me, there are some pastors, very prominent ones, viral ones, that I vehemently disagree with when it comes to uh the way they talk about politics, the assumptions they make. One of my encouragements, though, is that quite frankly, uh I'll say some, some of these leaders have been willing to have these kinds of conversations behind closed doors. Gloves off, uh man, just shoot it straight and let's really talk. And we don't land on agreement, uh, but uh we land on being reminded we are brothers. And uh, you know, every family got a crazy uncle. And I'll tell them, all right, I'll give I'll give you that. You you the crazy uncle. Uh, and and uh and you know, I'm assuming we'll see each other, you know, on the other side. But but uh I I hope we're able to have more of those kinds of humble but honest conversations. I'm not looking for somebody to blow smoke uh or to uh just flatter me. Um and I don't have the energy to do that for somebody else. I I want us to just come to the table, have very real honest conversations because um the world is looking at the Christian church right now in America. Um, and it does not look good, at least what's being projected publicly does not look good at all. Um I just read a stat at how the drop in public trust in pastors. And I think a lot of it, I mean, some of it is scandal, but a lot of it has to do with the ways that the the church and our voices can be co-opted by uh politicians. And so um I just hope we can have more honest conversations that overflow hopefully uh into real public good.

SPEAKER_02

So, so good, Mike. It's funny, as you say that, I'm just thinking too that many of us are so stuck in our bubbles, ideologically, religiously, politically, that we just forget that there are other people who have thoughtful opinions, other believers, other people who are part of the family of God who have landed in very different places. And so I I love what you're saying about just having honest conversations and remembering, okay, if we both follow Jesus, we believe in the same book, we read the same Bible. But I'm curious, my last question for you is in your own practice, how do you make sure that you're not reading your own political preference, your own cultural filter into your exegesis, into your reading of scripture? And like what how do you process that personally? And what would you recommend for people who are grappling? Because I think that's the question. Many lay leaders, church leaders, workplace Christians are asking, how do I even know that my conviction is actually what scripture says?

SPEAKER_01

Yeah, yeah. I mean, all of us are prone to that. And um, I think one thing is prayer. For sure, the Holy Spirit will guide us and correct us, um, and and and then prayerfully uh engaging the text of scripture on its own terms is why the historical uh exegetical context is so important so that we're not just pulling stuff out of context. So it takes real study because that provides some guardrails for our interpretation. Uh, and so I think just prayerfully like studying the Bible in context is foundational. But I would also say uh we are we are so individualistic in our faith. And I would say, even for pastors, we're very individualistic in the way we prepare uh to teach and to preach. And so uh studying the Bible in community, um, and even if you're not a pastor, you know, doing it in a group. Um, but as a pastor, uh just um we we try to send out our sermons to a group of people to give feedback. We're in conversations uh as we're studying and preparing. Um, but it's part of the reason, and and everybody's not in a multi-ethnic church. I don't think every church has to be multi-ethnic, uh, which is a whole nother conversation, but but everybody's not gonna be in that context. I'm thankful that I'm in one for the reasons that we're talking about. But even if you're not um uh uh doing what you can to cultivate relationships with people outside of your bubble, um, because what it does is you just have other voices in your head. And this is what has happened to me. And so uh, I mean, I you you can even hear it in some of the uh critiques I've given, right? I I have because I'm in a kind of American evangelical context. I'm not in the traditional black church right now, although I'm from that. I'm in an evangelical context. So that's coming at me all the time. I'm just swimming in that water. Um, I have a lot of thoughts, right, about evangelicalism. However, uh there are very real concerns as well on the political left. Um, and I have to be careful that I don't allow my critiques of extreme, like hyper-conservatism, push me into compromise where I'm not willing now to preach the Bible and apply it to the topics, right? That uh that people who may be more progressive leaning uh would be offended by. And so that only happens for me if I'm in relationship with other people who can look me in my face and tell me the truth and be like, dog, like you have you got a lot to say about this, but but why why are you not leaning into this? Because this is a concern as well. And it's not both sides thing, everything is not equal. Uh, but we do uh we have to the way I put it to our people is the kingdom of God uh is not Republican or Democrat. Um, the kingdom of God sits above all of the kingdoms of this world, which means that if Jesus has all authority and and the kingdom of God is above every kingdom of this world, then Jesus has the right to critique every single kingdom, political system, uh uh uh political platform. We then, as his representatives, have to, the way this plays out for me personally is I gotta give that same energy where I can kind of see clearly and I can critique where I see drift or compromise among Christians who are on this side of the aisle. I gotta give that same energy where I see Jesus being misrepresented on this other side of the aisle. Um, and uh, and that's that's costly. Uh, and there's a lot of people who are super bold about uh critiquing folks that they don't really care that much about their opinion, but then they get real timid and quiet uh when scripture is very loud about issues uh that could get them in trouble with the people that that they uh most highly respect. So um so prayer, being locked in to the text and letting that guide and control uh my uh what I believe and what I think and what I teach. Uh, but then testing all of that in community with other people and a community of people who are not just gonna reinforce all my biases but uh are willing to help me. Uh I'm I'll never be fully objective, but Lord willing, I'm seeing more clearly and more clearly and more clearly uh as I mature and get more exposed to other thoughts and opinions.

SPEAKER_02

Amen, amen. Well, this has just been such a rich conversation. I'd love to ask you to pray for us, pray for everyone listening, pastors, lay leaders, people who are curious. Would you just pray a blessing over this conversation?

SPEAKER_01

Yeah, we'd love to. Oh, Father, uh, what comes to my mind is um the verse I share. Do not be conformed to this world, but be transformed by the renewal of your mind so that you can test and discern what the will of God is. Uh and I love what Paul writes the will of God is good, it is pleasing, um, it is it is perfect. And so, Lord, we we want your will and we need your wisdom in order to be like Jesus and to represent Jesus. And so I pray for brothers and sisters who are listening, as well as myself, Lord, that you would uh help us, help us, Lord, to see where we may be drifting, Lord, or where our biases may be pulling us in a particular direction. Uh Lord, would you uh correct us and align us with your will? Um, but Lord, would you also give us courage and give us boldness in our churches and in our culture, Lord, to speak the truth in love, to say the things that need to be said, uh, Lord, because they are truthful and they are loving, uh, and because they come from you and are pleasing and honoring to you. And Lord, I pray uh in this cultural moment that you would raise up brothers and sisters in Christ who are so filled with the Spirit, so full of Christ's love, so overflowing uh with the radiance uh of God's character, Lord, that uh that people would pay attention and that they would be drawn, Lord, to you because they see something compelling uh in our witness. Uh and so uh Lord uh protect us, uh, strengthen us, uh, sanctify us for the glory of your name, we pray in Jesus' name. Amen.

SPEAKER_02

Amen. Wow, thank you so much, Mike. What an honor.

SPEAKER_01

Thank you.

SPEAKER_02

I'm so glad we got to chat with Mike. I mean, yeah, it's always cool to hear from pastors. You know, uh for me as a researcher and just as a human, I'm always wary of talking about an issue without talking to the people who are experiencing it.

SPEAKER_00

Yeah, no doubt. And people say that Mike is just one of the really great uh young younger uh church leaders in our in our church today. So uh what what a privilege to be able to speak to him.

SPEAKER_02

Uh, all right. Well, our one number for today was 38. 38% of pastors who have considered quitting full-time ministry ranked current political divisions as one of the primary reasons why, ranking just third after stress and loneliness. So, I mean, what what are you sitting with after this conversation today, David?

SPEAKER_00

Well, I I mentioned this at the beginning of our show, but just having grown up in a pastor's home, um, a lot of my friends who are pastors asked me, like, what did your dad and mom do right? What did they do wrong? And they did so many things right. Um My dad had great hobbies. He took the weekends besides Sunday, he took Friday and Saturday off. It was really before the era of you know, always on digitally connected life. But like he even if there would have been um mobile phones and and internet during my growing up years, he would have had a pretty strong boundary about that. Um so boundaries, hobbies, you know, just like finding other ways, a lot of sense of humor, uh vacations, finding a way to like as the stress of this job and the challenges of leading today, uh just finding a way to realize you're not the most important part of that story. You know, God God's spirit is the one that's building the church. In fact, quick story, just I think this is so great. He my dad led a church for many years, Gary Kinneman. Um, and uh for 25 plus years, the church was just like growing, growing, growing. And then the last few years it it started to decline. And um one of his friends and mentors, uh, my dad sat down with him and was like, What do I do? How do I like reverse this? And he said, Well, first of all, the years of uh the years of decline are not your fault. Um and my dad just took a lot of like freedom to realize, like, hey, you know, this isn't the the work of the church, the faithfulness of the church, whether church is growing or not, is my dad's not my dad's like fault. And he said, But as importantly, the years of increase were not your doing.

SPEAKER_02

Sure, yes.

SPEAKER_00

So I think this question that um we could, you know, kind of reflect back on the interview with with Mike is that leadership is super challenging. It's never been um as complex as it is today, and there is a path through by becoming uh even more connected to Jesus in our work, right? Like when it grow when the church is growing, it's not our doing. When the church is declining, it's not our fault. And just to recognize we we can become uh more and more the kind of leaders that are worth following.

SPEAKER_02

Hmm. And I love too what you mentioned about rhythms of rest. And I think that's something probably all of us could learn from is do we take time to Sabbath? Do we take time to just have hobbies and do things that are not at all related to the work or the ministry? I think it's so important because it does refresh your soul. And knowing when things are personal, of course, there's still room for accountability and growth and realigning and reassessing our tools and all of that. And like you said, it is the spirit of God at work when people rise up and come to him, possibly through church. Or it's also the the work of sometimes the enemy, but also just so tons of different cultural and social dynamics at play that affects both increase and decline. And so it's such a healthy, balanced perspective to have that also takes the onus and the weight of carrying a church and the kingdom of God off of your shoulders because it's Jesus' to carry, and we just get to come in as supporting players.

SPEAKER_00

Yeah, that's right. Yeah, Jesus says he'll build build the church and the gates of hell. And even the complexities of modern leadership will not prevail against it.

SPEAKER_02

I love that. Big hope. Well, if today's conversation resonated with you at all, if you learned something new, if you were encouraged or challenged by it, please continue to follow along. Uh, you can literally hit follow on Spotify or wherever you listen to podcasts, share it with a friend, a coworker, a pastor who may need to hear this, and download today's episode if you haven't already to revisit later. And please, please leave us a review. Reviews are the number one way that helps new people find this podcast and join the conversation. So, a quick final thank you to our partner, Glue, for sponsoring today's episode. Glue is on a mission to shape technology for good, giving leaders like you and me the tools we need and trust and can rely on to amplify our impact. So a big thank you to all of you for listening in and learning along with us. As a token of our appreciation, we've partnered with the team at Glue to make a free resource available to you today. It's called 10 Trends of Shaping Faith, Culture, and the Future of the Church. You can grab your download at Barna.comslash 10trends or find the link in the show notes. So let's keep discerning together. We're so grateful you're here, and we'll see you on the next episode of the Barna Faith and Culture Report.