The Barna Faith and Culture Report

08 | Rethinking Evangelism in an Age of Quiet Belief

• Season 1 • Episode 8

Share episode

Use Left/Right to seek, Home/End to jump to start or end. Hold shift to jump forward or backward.

0:00 | 39:20

In this episode, David Kinnaman sits down with Ashley LaLonde, Barna's Head of Insights, to explore new data showing that 80% of Americans believe there's a spiritual or supernatural dimension to life. Together, they unpack what it looks like to live an invitational life instead of delivering a rehearsed pitch, and why prayer, honesty, and proximity to people outside the church are becoming the most powerful tools for gospel conversations today.

Episode Links

SPEAKER_00

Hello and welcome to the Barna Faith and Culture Report. My name is Ashley Lalande, and I'm here with my co-host David Kinneman, and we can't wait to dive into the stats with you. On today's episode, we discuss new approaches to evangelism and the call of the church in seasons of spiritual renewal. This is the Faith and Culture Report. Today's episode is brought to you by Glue, a partner we're super grateful for here at Barna. They're building the leading technology platform to serve the faith and flourishing ecosystem with a principle of serving those who serve. Leaders like you and me so we can do more of what we're called to do. Barna has been partnering with Glue since 2020 to produce the latest state of the church research. And together we're bringing you new reporting throughout this year, including a brand new series on faith in AI. So, speaking of gratitude, thank you for tuning in. Together with Glue, we've put together a special gift for you called 10 Trends Shaping Faith, Culture, and the Future of the Church. Head on over to Barna.com slash 10 trends to download it, or you can find the link waiting for you in the show notes. Let's get started. Hey David, how's it going?

SPEAKER_02

I'm doing good. How about you?

SPEAKER_00

I'm great. I'm great. I'm really excited for this topic. You know, it's near and dear to my heart. So I can't wait to dive in to our one number. But before we get there, what's some good news?

SPEAKER_02

Well, um, you know that we're talking about evangelism on this uh uh this episode, and I am pretty evangelistic about Lego.

SPEAKER_00

Oh, yes, you are.

SPEAKER_02

And uh for anybody who comes to visit uh Barna headquarters, they notice I've got a lot of Lego sitting around and even more in my home. So, but um some good news is Lego just released um Gondor, the White City, Minas Tirith. It was just delivered to my home.

SPEAKER_00

Please, for the lay, lay audience, explain what what does that mean? What's that language that you're speaking?

SPEAKER_02

It's a Lord of the Rings set.

SPEAKER_00

Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_02

Uh and so it's um it's got the minifigs, Aragorn, and uh and Gandalf and all the whole the whole gang. It's sort of the the the the soldiers of Gondor. So I'm having I'm having fun. I'm starting to build that set, and uh that's some good news in my life right now.

SPEAKER_00

I love that. That was one of my favorite things I learned about you when we first started working together. David loves Legos, and it's actually it's really sweet, it's really cool.

SPEAKER_02

Yeah, the geek factor is high. So, how about you?

SPEAKER_00

I'll say I tried a new sushi spot with my mom in New York this week. Life changing because they have a crazy happy hour deal where you get one dollar edamame, like $5 rolls, $7 cocktails. And uh, for those who don't know me, I'm a huge foodie. So that's one of my favorite parts about living in New York City, being a native New Yorker. I just think we have access to some of the best food in the world. And finding those deals, oh my goodness, especially for a food that can be as expensive as sushi, has been life-changing.

SPEAKER_02

There you go. Well, I mean, there's some great Lego stores in New York City as well. So There you go.

SPEAKER_00

Okay, your next trip will hit the sushi spot, then we'll go to the Lego stores.

SPEAKER_02

Perfect. Time me up.

SPEAKER_00

All right, what's our one number for today?

SPEAKER_02

Uh our one number is 80. Uh 80% of Americans believe there is a spiritual or supernatural dimension to life, to the world today. And I think this matters because uh, you know, I think sometimes we sort of imagine that people are just atheists and most people don't aren't believers. But actually most people believe in, I mean, everyone believes in something.

SPEAKER_01

Sure.

SPEAKER_02

Um, even if they believe in uh something other than Christianity, they're believing, you know, that God doesn't exist, um, that that itself is a kind of belief. Uh, but the fact that 80% believe there's a supernatural side to life, um, I think it's fascinating. And it tells us that people are open uh to these spiritual conversations.

SPEAKER_00

Absolutely. I mean, for me, the first thing I think about is the fact that new atheism, the atheism that was really popular in the public square in the early 2000s, think, you know, Dawkins and Sam Harris and all of these different Christopher Hitchens. Yeah, Hitchens, exactly. All of those leaders who were saying, you know, who were relatively hostile to any religious or spiritual belief, that conversation's kind of out the door now. And so the old atheism of quiet disbelief, then we have the new atheism of very public discourse around, you know, anti-theism. That's, I mean, I think people have found that over the last 20 or so years, that belief system was insufficient in meeting our deeper needs around questions of purpose, meaning, collective action, community, love, hope. And so I actually am so thrilled about this because I think old evangelism was like, you have to convince people God is real. And sure, there's plenty of atheists still and plenty of reasons why people don't believe in God. But actually, most people, a vast majority, four out of five people, do believe in a spiritual reality. They believe in some higher power, something beyond what we can see. And so you don't have to convince people that spirits are real or that there is something. It's more of like, is Christianity the truth? But I think beyond that, is it real? Is it good? Is it beautiful? I think of the three transcendentals that we've talked about before, even going back to Plato, who would talk about those as the highest reality, truth, beauty, goodness. And I think those are actually going to be even more compelling. We've focused a bit on truth as a church, and there's a time and a place for truth. We also are living in a post-truth era. And so when it's a lot harder to define and be clear about truth with so many different perspectives, personal truth, and then, of course, the age of AI and internet and fake news, beauty and goodness, I think, will be our most compelling apologetics.

SPEAKER_02

Yeah, it's good. Well, we're gonna kind of flip the script today in our episode. And uh the guest on today's show is Ashley Lalonde, my co-host. And so it's been fun uh sort of charting a path on the show. Usually we bring in an outside expert. I think on our first episode, we kind of had a conversation around this moment of spiritual belief. In fact, you just used a phrase, uh, I think quiet disbelief. We're kind of in an era now of quiet belief where people are uh, you know, uh they're wondering what to believe. They're they're renewing their interest and curiosity about Jesus. And it's such a great moment. I mean, we have been praying for a moment like this. So I'm so glad you've joined me on the podcast today. Thanks for thanks for coming along as a guest.

SPEAKER_00

Well, there you go. Would have been here anyway, but honored to be the guest for today.

SPEAKER_02

You had no choice. All right, so I want to uh mostly uh you'll be hearing for those who are listeners um from um Ashley's perspective. And we met a couple years ago from a dear friend, uh Craig Springer, um, who I've had had you come host an evangelism conference. And uh he said you gotta meet Ashley sometime, and and since since then we have, and we've we're so we're so uh honored that you're a part of Barna. We've actually given you the role now of head of insights here at Barna. And uh it's fun to be able to partner with uh with you and your brain and your uh cultural insights. And uh you're also a churchgoer at good friend John Tyson's church in New York City, Church of the City. So um uh we'll start right here. This idea of one of the things I love about you is just how much you love talking about Jesus. It just it just exudes from your very being and uh seeing you in that environment, in that context, hosting Alpha at Church of the City. Um, does it surprise you or does it confirm something you've already been seeing in terms of the 80% of Americans believing in a supernatural world?

SPEAKER_00

Yeah, I think I'm not surprised at all. I actually think one of the missteps and false assumptions we've had as at, you know, as the body of Christ has been, oh, people who don't attend church hate God or don't believe in God. And I've actually found there's so many people, particularly in hotspot cities like New York or San Francisco, who have this quiet belief. Maybe they don't know where to place that belief. And sure they might practice many different sort of, you know, polytheistic practices or new age spirituality, or whether it's astrology or manifesting, there's a lot of spiritual practice happening and there's actually a lot of desire to encounter God. So I'm not surprised by this at all. And I've actually found something that I just do naturally in conversation is because Jesus is the most important thing in my life, in the same way that my marriage to my husband Noah is one of the most important things. Everything that's important to me naturally comes up in conversation. So if you talk to me for more than five minutes, you're probably gonna hear about Jesus, and then you're probably gonna hear about Noah, and you're probably gonna hear about all of these other things that are important to me. And I find that when I am really open in secular spaces, so if I'm working in the arts or if I'm out with a friend at a party, um, the feedback is actually really positive. People are like, oh, I'm so glad you mentioned that. Oh, you go to church? Like, what church is that? Or oh, oh, you pray? Like, how does how does that go? The curiosity levels are so high. And so I actually think it's time for the church to dispel this sort of defense barrier that we've had. A little bit of like defensive and hostile energy of we have to protect God and we have to protect Jesus' reputation. There is a responsibility to restoring Christian witness, which is something I'm passionate about. And we make it into a bit more later.

SPEAKER_02

But among all the different trends that we've been tracking, and uh the last couple of years, we've been really like hard on the trail of what's happening in terms of renewal. Um, because you know, in some ways, um, you know, I still don't use the word revival to describe the trends, but there is definitely a moment of renewal and something is happening, and young men are more um oriented towards church than they were uh even five years ago, and certainly more than they were uh 10 years ago. Um so there's some interesting things that are happening. Um, but one of the fascinating things, and I hope this episode can help to address this, which is that among all the changes that we see, one of the things that is not changing is the church's appetite for evangelism. So we're not any more likely today to want to share our faith than we were 10 years ago or even five years ago. So our energy isn't matching the evangelistic moment. And I think we'd love to see this episode uh help to turn that around. Um, how would you describe the spiritual climate right now? So beyond just the numbers, what's your kind of qualitative insights around what's happening uh where you live work and play?

SPEAKER_00

Sure. Live, work and play. Well, there's many different places where I live, work, and play, as you know. Um, but I would say people are very hungry and curious, as I said, and they're also tentative and skeptical. We know from our research here at Barna that institutional crust, uh, institutional crust, institutional trust.

SPEAKER_02

That's a new kind of bread.

SPEAKER_00

There you go. Institutional crust, try it at your local grocery store. Institutional trust is declining rapidly. That's true of the church, it's true of the government. How do you see that playing out?

SPEAKER_02

How do you see it playing it out?

SPEAKER_00

Yeah, it I'll say that the sort of backlash, positive consequence of that is the increase of relational and peer trust. And so what I see is actually, as many people are like, man, I don't like what I see from the church in the news or in politics or how the church is intermingled with politics. They will say, but there's this one Christian in my life who's kind, who is trustworthy, and who has this spirit of peace about them. And that I like, that I connect with. I had a friend who I got to do um Hamilton with, and she uh noted at one point, I just noticed there's this spirit of peace about you, this kind of quiet confidence. And I'm wondering if that's your faith. And that is like the highest compliment you could give any Christian is oh my goodness, it's not my personality, it's Jesus. I hope I have a good personality, but what you're seeing, what you're sensing, it's actually the Holy Spirit alive in me. And so I think that is something that will be even more compelling. We always want that to be a primary sort of apologetic of our faith. But I'll say in the age where a lot of people don't trust something if they hear it from a pastor on stage or see it on social media or in the news, but they do trust someone who knows them, who loves them, who's been showing up, who's present, pays attention, remembers the details of their life, and doesn't judge them, they will trust that person. And so I actually find that the model of friendship is the most effective way. And I don't say it as like, oh, friendship is a manipulation tactic, not at all. And I hope that I don't think anyone who knows me would say that. But that friends influence each other. And that's even how God's designed relationships.

SPEAKER_02

How's that different from, you know, it feels like friendship evangelism or relational evangelism has been something we've been talking about for a long time? How do you think that moment is unique right now?

SPEAKER_00

Yeah, I'll say because of the institutional trust declining, that makes it even more important. But I I would personally give a little bit of feedback and critique to the quote unquote friendship, relational evangelism models that the church has had and we've inherited over the years. I think there has been a bit of force and manipulation rather than love and invitation. And so to me, the shift is actually can we live, not just be invitational in our relationships of like, oh, invite your neighbor, your coworker to church. That's great. Do that, invite them to church, invite them to alpha. Um, but live an invitational life, invite them into every part of your life. Because actually, as we've seen with, you know, we've talked about discipleship and community. That's a recent study. We have right now media course coming out about that. The most spiritual formation happens in the ordinary and mundane moments of life. It actually doesn't happen in the pews. And we know that's true within the church, within Christians and Christian community, but it's also happened outside. I have found that actually the most powerful moments have been a late night at the bar, a conversation on the couch after, you know, a dinner gathering where everyone else head home uh has headed home and I'm sitting there with one friend, and we just get really raw. So I think there is, there needs to be more honesty, a more holistic approach. Um belonging before believing is a big one, is that there's been a bit of like bait and switch, manipulative relational tactics that I've personally seen in the church. And I think there's also been a one size fits all approach, which is here's my gospel pitch, here's my 30-second version, my two-minute, and my eight-minute. And there's a time and a place for that. I'm not against those kinds of trainings, but when you read the gospels and when you read the book of Acts, every single gospel presentation moment is completely different because Jesus knew how to meet individuals. And I think as a church, we need to do that better.

SPEAKER_02

How do you think we can raise the evangelistic temperature of our congregation to be better prepared and better, you know, sort of conversation ready?

SPEAKER_00

Yeah. One is uh certainly like better conversations from the pulpit. And there's many pastors who do talk about evangelism, but this is the Great Commission. These are Jesus' final words before he ascends to heaven, go and make disciples. And so we need to take Jesus more seriously in the church, honestly. We need to look at the Sermon on the Mount, we need to look at the Great Commission and say, these are the things, these are the core matters that Jesus wanted to make sure we knew. So let's actually put them into practice. And then we need to actually just go do more of the Jesus stuff. Meaning, I'll say many Christians end up getting stuck in their own Christian bubbles. So the average Christian doesn't have many non-Christians in their life, not in their friend circles, not in their holiday celebrations. Maybe they got that one uncle or this cousin. But I think we actually need to expand the church and expand our relational footprint. Uh, and so that looks like actually become close friends with people who believe different things than you believe.

SPEAKER_02

Yeah, we were at a conference recently, uh at Barna Summit, and uh I would love that you were encouraging a room full of Christian leaders and nonprofit leaders uh to be evangelistic in their own lives and not just to let that, you know, be like the work of the church or the work of other people. So I I can I can fully say uh that uh I've been a witness of you being a positive influence, even on us as Christian leaders, to say, hey, this is something we can't ever neglect.

SPEAKER_00

Totally. And I think this is if I really had to pinpoint maybe the key issue here, and there are many, and there's many encouraging things, many hard things, but I do think that one of the key issues facing the church right now that I hope we can address, you and I, David, this podcast of we as Barna, is that most of the people who are teaching, preaching, training, writing about evangelism are not practicing it in their own lives because they are in the Christian bubble. And so I think that is creating one of the biggest disconnects because proximity is knowledge, proximity is power, proximity is authority. And so if we're not living this out, many of the, and this is not a bash on any pastor or any leader, but the reality is if you are leading a church, you're probably just surrounded by your congregation, your staff, your family, who's probably all Christian and shares similar walks and similar beliefs. But I think there is a space for real life practitioners, people who are grassroots gospel ambassadors in their communities, in their towns, in their workplaces to actually become leading voices on evangelism.

SPEAKER_02

Talk about workplace uh conversations, how we could sort of equip people to be conversational about uh their faith in the workplace. I mean, you've been an actress, you've worked uh in in uh television and um on Broadway, uh, and also just again sort of seeing you just in in our sort of social interactions with traveling or doing things. You're very open about it. But talk about the workplace dynamics. How would you think we could help younger Christians feel confident about um talking about their faith and expressing their faith uh in the workplace?

SPEAKER_00

Totally. I think the number one thing here is just be more honest. Be more honest, be more open. People feel so guarded and protective and often performative in workplaces. And I would just say, hey, the reality is if Jesus is a big part of your life, he'll just come up at your workplace. I actually don't have to try and like weave it in. The reality is say my workplace that day is on set. Um, you know, I'm sitting in the makeup chair getting to know my makeup artist. And this is there's a real actually cool story here. Um, but the theme is the same. When she's asking me about my life, church is a big part of my life. Church is a lot of what Noah and I do. We don't work at the church, but we're really involved. And so it's not just a weekly gathering that we attend, but we do alpha and we do small groups and all sorts of discipleship and trainings. And so it just comes up. When someone asks me, Oh, how was your weekend? Oh, it was great. I got dinner with my parents, and then I saw this friend, and then I went to church, and the message was so great. It was about being a non-anxious presence in the world. That's it's simple as that. And I found that many Christians, especially if you work in a secular environment, someone asks you about your weekend, and it's like the sweat beads start forming, you start shaking, you're like, how do I not mention church? And I'm like, just be honest. And and I'll say, if you're being honest and Jesus doesn't come up, is Jesus really that big a part of your life? You know, is it really that important? Or when my friends who are not Christians ask me for advice or share something, I'll often infuse just like biblical wisdom because that's where my wisdom comes from. If I have any wisdom to offer, it's from what I've been taught by the Holy Spirit and read in the scriptures and then lived out in my own life. And so I find that, you know, when I'm just having everyday conversation, someone shares something they're going through. It's like, oh, because I've like spent time marinating on the word and in prayer and in Christian community, I'm thinking now of a proverb. I'm thinking now of, oh man, Jesus said this one thing. And and I won't bring it up as, so you have to believe this, but it might just be like, man, something that's really helped me is thinking about, we've talked about taking my thoughts captive and how I can just like acknowledge any toxic or hard or anxious thoughts I have. And then I kind of pass them off to God in prayer. And people are like, oh, what? What is that? And then I get to talk about contemplative prayer or listening prayer or scripture reading. So it's really, I think it's so much more simple than we think, and then invite people into your life. And so make yourself show up as a whole person to your workplace, be honest. Um, but then that also means you need to have thought through these things on your own. Um, I think people get so nervous of like, oh, what if people ask me really hard questions? What if I mentioned church and then they ask me, oh, you know, how do you, you know, how do you reconcile God and science? Or what do you think of gay marriage or all these different sort of harder quote unquote questions that Christians are scared of answering? Do the hard work on your own outside of those spaces. Read through the commentary, sit with God, sit with scripture, talk to your small group leader, your pastor, your spouse, your friend about those conversations so that when someone does ask you, you've already thought this through. You're not caught off guard.

SPEAKER_02

Why do you think there's uh such an increase in uh kind of like Christian or faith adjacent conversations in podcasts and, you know, kind of like there's the chosen, there's he gets uh some of the bigger, you know, kind of media efforts. But it seems to me the last two, three years there's been um even more kind of conversations as uh people who are you know, sort of they're not they're not Christians. Um, the diary of a CEO, Stephen Bartlett, you know, is having conversations with people about uh Christianity or or um Joe Rogan or others. What what do you make of the interest that's happening kind of broadly and and culturally?

SPEAKER_00

Yeah, I'm so excited about it, was the first thing I'll say. The second thing I'll say is again, there is we've been passed down these cultural scripts, as we would call them, about meaning, about life. Um and the reality is a lot of these scripts have failed us. They've said, well, make as much money as possible and you'll be happy. Or, you know, have as much sex as possible, you'll be happy. Just find the right spouse and live a good life and you'll be happy. You'll be satisfied. And I think many people have kind of gotten to the end that lived out that script pretty perfectly and said, oh wait, it's empty. Oh wait, my hope was in this political candidate. And then they came into office and my hope was let down. My hope put me to shame. And so people are searching for someone or something to put their hope in that will not put them to shame. And so for many, you know, I think there's also a desire for ancient wisdom. I've seen that across the board, is that in the age of pop psychology and this viral TikTok and this piece of news, and anyone can be a thought leader, anyone can be an influencer and have an audience if you just post enough.

SPEAKER_01

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00

We are seeing that that is more shallow than we intended. We're also seeing AI slop as we call it, which is I have, you know, I've seen many people online who are basically have made themselves thought leaders. And as someone who's more familiar with all the AI tells, I'm like, I know you didn't write that. I know that's AI, you know, chat, give me something great to say, Claude, give me a really deep thought to post online today. And it and that's what you have. And so people are tired of that. We're sniffing it out. We are sniffing out this shallow, digital, clickbait culture, and we're looking for something deeper. Is there an ancient wisdom source that we can look to? And so I think that's even the fascination with history that's happening right now. We're like, wait, we're in this weird chapter of history. What did it look like a hundred years ago? What did it look like a thousand, two thousand years ago? So there is a desire to connect with something deeper, bigger, more ancient, and more beautiful.

SPEAKER_02

Um, what do you think are the the ways to help um uh people experience experience God in prayer? Like, like so so are you are you talking about prayer? Are you seeing that expressed in your conversations with uh younger people?

SPEAKER_00

1000%. I actually have found prayer to be the front door for a lot of these moments. Um I am often asking people if I can pray for them, and I'll sometimes just be like, could I pray for you right now? Like, do you mind? Are you open to that? No pressure if not.

SPEAKER_02

Has anyone ever said no?

SPEAKER_00

I'm trying, maybe once. And that person actually said, you know, I think I'm gonna feel too uncomfortable if you say it right now, but can you pray later for me? Like just privately? And I was like, absolutely, and I wasn't offended. Yeah, I'll say probably in you know, a decade of asking that a lot. I think I've only had that one that I can remember. And he he said, Please do it, just not right now. Um, but I've, you know, I've prayed with people at bars, out the street corners, and subway stations, just wherever. And I also am trying to be really sensitive to the prompting of the spirit. I talk about Holy Spirit highlights a lot. And so for me, that can happen, you know, when I walk into the workplace, when I walk into a rehearsal room, when I walk onto a subway car, I just sense, I'm like, come, Holy Spirit, just be with me today. Show me where you're already moving. That's another, I think, misunderstanding that we have about God is we're like, God, I want to bring you to this group of people. God's already there. Acts 17, God is not far from any one of us. So we're actually meeting Jesus where he's already at work. He's already moving in people's lives, and we get to partner and step into that. Um, and so I'll say back to the prayer point is one, make sure that you, if you are wanting to evangelize, pray yourself. Like pray constantly without ceasing. And often for me, it's like as simple as just come, Holy Spirit, come, Holy Spirit, do your thing. And actually, when I sense a conversation, when I just sense, ooh, I think God's at work here, I think there's something more, I'll pray that in my head. But I'll say that even, you know, if I'm at lunch with a coworker or I, you know, I had this really cool moment with a makeup artist on set, I just said point blank, and sometimes, you know, we've talked about keep Christianity weird, make Christianity weird. We don't want it to just be like, oh, this is another option. You know, there's philosophy, there's psychology, and there's religion. No, Christianity is weird.

SPEAKER_02

Like we talk about demons, we talk about angels and power prayer, power prayer, God revealing revealing himself to us.

SPEAKER_00

So I'll share one story where I got. Honestly, I was nervous. I was like, man, that's gonna sound super weird. But I was praying for my makeup artist on one project I was working on about a year and a half ago, and I actually felt like God gave me a vision for her, like a prophetic visual story to share with her. And I was like, man, this is gonna be weird. This is gonna be super weird, but I'm gonna go for it, God. Back me up, Jesus. And I'm sitting there getting my makeup done. It's the last day on set. And I just said, hey, this might sound super weird, but I pray for my friends and the people I meet. And this morning I was praying for you and I got a vision, I got a story, an image that I would love to share with you if you're open to it. No pressure. And she just literally stopped in her tracks and she was like, please share. Oh my gosh, Christ has a message for me. I'd love to hear it. I've actually been like really curious about that. And long story short, I end up sharing it with her later that day and she breaks down crying, and we get to talk through all this really beautiful and hard stuff. Um, but it's prayer is the front door. I'll share one other story of a friend who I met doing uh, we'll call him Jake for this. And uh, Jake and I played best friends in this workshop of this new project, this new Braboy project. And the first day on uh in the rehearsal studio, we're sitting kind of diagonal from each other, and it's our first lunch break. And, you know, first day at school, kind of lunch break. Oh, who am I gonna eat lunch with? And he turns around, we just lock eyes. And it was not a romantic moment, but it was this powerful draw where I felt the Holy Spirit say, This is someone whom I love, pour out the love there. And I just moved toward this person and we were like, should we get lunch? Long story short, or long story medium, we got lunch that day, really hit it off. We ended up having lunch every single day of that rehearsal process, becoming good friends. I was really open about my faith. At the time, he was open about, oh, you know, well, I've tried manifesting under the moon before. This is my astrology, and I didn't judge it. And we just talked and we had different perspectives. But it wasn't the primary focus of our friendship. It was actually just we really get along and we have a good time together. About a month and a half later, I got to invite him over to a church friend's house to watch the Tony Awards together. And he's like, wait, is everyone here Christian? And I was like, Yeah, they are. And he's like, Okay, so what's the deal with all this church stuff? Like, what? Tell me more. And that opened up so many conversations about a month after that. So this is now a few months into our friendship. Project has ended. Um, it was Easter, and we were hosting an Easter brunch. And Noah, my husband and I, this has been our annual tradition of our marriage, of our family, is to host an open invitation Easter brunch. And so we actually intentionally don't invite like all of our church friends. We intentionally want to invite people who may not be celebrating Easter, may not have family nearby, may not have been invited somewhere else. And we want to bring them in and say, you're welcome here. One of our core values in our marriage is radical inclusion, radical welcome. Because that's just what we see Jesus doing. He's going to the leper, he's going to the woman with an issue of blood, he's going to people who are outcast by society and saying you have a place here. So this is also to say, not everyone who we're inviting to Easter, we were like, oh, you're an outcast. Come. It's not that. But it's to say, floor's open, everyone come. I don't care if you celebrate Easter, I don't care what you believe, just come and enjoy and eat. And then I actually put out little question cards where I have little question promptings, almost like alpha style, but they're not all about Jesus. They're really open-ended. But it's to say that this one friend, Jake, came over for Easter, and he was just saying how significant it felt to like be there celebrating Easter. Um, Jake is part of the LGBTQ community. It was on Transnational Day of Visibility, so that also felt significant to him. He said that. And he was like, you know, I think like there's something here that I want to explore. I invited him to Alpha, had an amazing time. And uh on our weekend away, I got to pray with him. And he just like bursts into a combination of tears and laughing of like, oh, so this is what it is. Like I actually know what the love of God feels like. And he literally felt God speaking into these memories. I'll say that was two years ago. He's getting baptized this summer and gave his life to Jesus a couple of years ago. But it's also, it's not a simple path. It's not a sort of this, then this, then this. I think the church needs to prepare, particularly in seasons of renewal, for messy testimonies, for questions, for people to encounter the Holy Spirit, but be super skeptical about the church, hesitant to call themselves Christians, which we've talked about a bit in another episode, is the church's witness right now, it needs repair. We need to actually repair it through relational healing and relationally being good witnesses in our communities, in our workplaces, living an invitational lifestyle. So people can say, Yeah, I saw this on the news. But, you know, my neighbor David, I know he's a Christian and he runs this group called Barna, but he's just so kind. And he sat with me, you know, as I was grieving.

SPEAKER_02

He sure likes his Lego and he loves Legos.

SPEAKER_00

And isn't that the most Christ-like thing there is?

SPEAKER_02

Uh what that reminds me, that's such a cool story. And um, the stories you've you've told, I'm just sort of sitting back, you know, I've I've heard versions of these stories already in our friendship, but to hear them now, hear them on the podcast. And I hope they're encouraging uh to our listeners to think about what it means for us to live that um, you know, radically generous, radically hospitable life, and uh to be sharing our lives with people as we're trying to get them to know more about Jesus. I uh um I wasn't thinking about this story until you talked about it, but I sat next to a woman on a plane uh a year or so ago uh coming back from Denver. I'd been um hiking, it was the summer, and um this woman next to me, this woman was also coming back from Denver, and um and she had been up at Estes Park at the Stanley Hotel where the shining uh was filmed, and um she had been ghost hunting, and and so she was I could hear her talking on her phone before we took off. And then I actually was editing a project. Um, I was writing a forward for a friend who was writing a book about Jesus, and uh so she saw on my screen, you know, this like open document about Jesus. And so we had this very interesting conversation. She had lost her father recently. She was trying to like communicate with his spirit, she was trying to let go ghost signing. She was showing me pictures. She's like, Do you see like a ghost there? I was like, I honestly could not see anything that she was uh see she was seeing. Uh, but I felt like there was this real sense of um, you know, like this hunger, this the you know, or one number, 80%, 80% of Americans believe there's something uh spiritual or supernatural to life, right? So your makeup uh artist who's like, oh yeah, go ahead and pray for what what what are you what kind of picture are you getting? Uh there's an openness to this kind of spiritual revelation, not always in a good direction. Sure. Um and how can we help listen, understand, uh pay attention, ask the Holy Spirit to come into those conversations to make a difference, to intersect people's lives in a meaningful way. And then how can we restore the confidence of the church uh today that our message, that our stories matter? You know, we overcome not just by the blood of the Lamb, but by the power of the word of our testimony. So I think there's something in that. Um well, uh part of the whole point of the podcast is to give uh people this sort of like readiness for renewal. Um, that's one of the themes that connects us, you and I, uh, as well as the work of Barna is to give people a sense of like what's happening and and you know, how can we help to um partner with what the Holy Spirit is doing to awaken our society uh to the reality of Jesus' presence in their lives. And so uh as we come to a close of our conversation, what's uh what's some ways that you want to just sort of a final word, a final observation?

SPEAKER_00

Yeah, I mean, there's so there's so much here. And as David's hinting at, this will not be the last you hear from David and Ashley about renewal and evangelism and this spiritual moment. But I would just encourage you, if you are a Christian listening and you say you believe in evangelism, you believe the words of Jesus, that we should go out and make disciples, and you believe this is the ultimate good news, please go and do the same. And I'll leave you with this analogy. If you were sitting on your couch and uh your friend or neighbor ran in and said, Your house is on fire, your house is burning down, and you sat there and you said, Yeah, I believe you. And then you turned on a movie and you kept sitting there. And they said, No, no, no, your house is actually burning down. And you said, Yes, I believe that as well. Amen. And you kept watching your movie. You do not believe that. You do not believe them, you do not believe it. And so I would say the same with evangelism. Sadly, only about one in three Christians, according to our research, actually believes that sharing their faith is an important part of their faith. I would strongly challenge that. But I would say, I don't know if we have the number for the percentage of Christians that actually do share their faith. The percentage that actually could say, yes, in the last month, I had a spiritual conversation, a meaningful spiritual conversation with someone who does not currently follow Jesus. I mean, that is the biggest point of grief that I have with the church. I even have it with myself where I'm like, okay, wait, when is the last time I just had a spiritual encounter with someone who's not a Christian? I think we also can expand our definition of sharing the gospel. It doesn't have to be that you've shared the entire arc of scripture. It can be I shared God's love. I added a next step for them, or I invited them into something deeper and I prompted questions. That's not to get us off the hook, like get to the Jesus part, but it's to say sometimes there is one person who plants the seed, another who waters it, another who tends to it, and another, well, we know it's God who actually makes it grow. But I would just say if you are not living this out in your own life, don't talk about it, be about it, go and do the same. The harvest is plentiful, the workers are few. Let's get to work. And lastly, if you're scared about, well, how do I actually do this? What do I say? Luke 12, 12. The Holy Spirit will give you the words at that time that you should say. Not before, not after, at that time. Go out, be courageous, be invitational, build new friendships, and see his kingdom come.

SPEAKER_02

Sounds good. Well, man, actually, I leave talking to you every time and watching you in action and then talking about it with you, uh, even more inspired to be conversing, praying, uh, open to the Holy Spirit, um, finding ways, even myself, just to talk about uh my love for Jesus and how he has changed my life and you know, sort of we've been through thick and thin. He's been my maker, my redeemer, defender, and friend. And I have more uh joy than ever in talking about that and uh in part because of your uh your great example. So our one number on this podcast has been 80. 80% of Americans believe there's a spiritual or supernatural dimension to the world. Um, our guest and co-host has been Ashley Lalonde, and it's been great to talk with you, Ashley, about this conversation. I'm I'm I'm hoping our listeners are interested. We'd love to hear from you if you want to uh email us, um, ask us questions, begin to sort of like we we want this uh podcast to be a conversation with our listeners. Uh you can uh reach out on social media to us, but thank you for being a part of the conversation today, Ashley.

SPEAKER_00

Man, it's been such a joy. I mean, David, we could go on for hours, but we'll we'll let this let this breathe for a moment. I'm just honored. You know, I love talking about evangelism, but the only thing I love talking, or the only thing I love more than talking about evangelism is actually just doing it and being um someone who's actually changed by the love of God and lets that pour out into others. So it's an honor and a privilege always to share, always to chat with you. So, listeners, if today's conversation resonated with you, if you learned something new, if you're inspired or pricked, maybe, um, share this with someone. Share it with someone who needs to hear it, share it with a friend, a neighbor, a parent, a pastor, and then subscribe to the Faith and Culture Report. Wherever you listen to podcasts, uh, please leave us a review. If you enjoyed this, if you have thoughts to share, reviews are the number one way that helps new people find this content and this conversation. So, a quick final thank you to our partner Glue for sponsoring this episode. Glue's on a mission to shape technology for good, giving leaders the tools they can trust and rely on to amplify their impact. And lastly, of course, a big thank you to all of you for listening and joining us in this conversation. As a token of our appreciation, we've partnered with the team at Glue to make a free resource available for you today. 10 Trends Shaping Faith, Culture, and the Future of the Church. You can grab your download at barna.comslash 10 trends. We will also drop that link in the show notes for you. So let's keep discerning the data together. We are so grateful you're here, and we'll see you on the next episode of the Faith and Culture Report.