Welcome to the Vanderblumen Ladies Leadership Podcast, where we help Christian women grow in confidence, calling leadership. If you want to excel in your career while staying true to your faith, you're in the right place. Thanks for being here. Let's dive in.
SPEAKER_02Hello everyone, and welcome back to another episode of Vanderblumen Ladies Leadership Podcast. We have one of our regulars on with us, Missy Tuft. And Missy is one of our executive search consultants at Vanderblumen, and she's been with us for about three years now. So you all you all know and love Missy. And we have a topic today that both Missy and I are super, super passionate about. And that topic is how to care for your employees well. And this is really important because I think a lot of a lot of managers, a lot of leaders don't know what that looks like. And what I have seen over the years is it either pendulum swinging, right? So either over here, where you just have such strong boundaries and there's so little personal connection between a manager and an employee that the manager basically doesn't is is like not connecting with the employee at a level that the employee feels cared for. And then if you swing over here, you have managers that are super empathetic and more treat their employees like friends, and then there's not enough boundaries, and that doesn't help the employee perform better at work. So I think that how to caring for your employees is definitely a pendulum, and I've seen both sides. Missy, what's been your experience? Have you seen both sides of the pendulum? And then once we talk about that, we can discuss how to actually care for your employees well, how to find that middle ground.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, Jen, I've definitely seen both ends of the pendulum. And on one end, when they're really empathetic and they're really kind for a little while, it helps you to give that person more respect. You're working harder for them. There's things that you're like, wow, thank you so much for that kindness. But then there comes a point where everyone needs accountability. When we don't have accountability come in at some point, we get complacent by human nature, and then things like then your manager loses all their ability to hold you accountable.
SPEAKER_02One of the best pieces of advice I've ever gotten on this was actually from my mom. So she was a high school teacher, and she taught high school English right out of college, and she graduated college early. So she was teaching high school English to 17, 18-year-olds when she was only about 20 and 21. And she came up with something that has that worked for her for that, and she gave me that advice, and this is how I've always managed people, Missy. It's you start out really strong. You start out holding them accountable, you start out with strong boundaries, really more draconian, kind of like really strict. And then once you've built that respect with once the employees are treating you with respect because they see that you are able to set strong boundaries, after that, then you're able to take it down and do more of the interpersonal connection that makes the employees stay with you. So the first part builds the respect, and then the second part builds that employee connection and the emotional connection that makes the employees follow you anywhere. So I think those are the two key points, and that's worked really well with me in my career in management.
SPEAKER_00Actually, Jen, when you were saying that, I was reminded of my first email I got from you when I um was serving on the executive leadership team, and you wrote this long email and with these very strict outlines, and I remember reading the email, showing it to my husband and being like, I don't know about this. I don't know about I don't know about this. And then from then on, for like a month, I was so diligent in writing received, send, received, send. And then now it's like, okay, I definitely know this is the level of expectation for my work, but we can sit and text about movies, right?
SPEAKER_02So it's Missy, you saw you saw it work in practice. And if we had done it the other way, the managers that I've seen that come in like too friendly, like trying to build friendships right away, the employees walk all over them. Yeah. But if you establish that that strictness at the beginning, like you now, I'll just use you as an example because you brought it up. Like, you are super responsible, not that you weren't before, but you really are an employee that behaves in a way that that works well for me, and you're getting your needs met as an employee because you know that I actually care for you as a person. So this topic is super great. Um, I'm gonna ask you a question, Missy. You have been an executive search consultant now for a while and you've worked with a lot of churches. Do you believe that most companies or most churches do feel like they're caring for their employees well? But then when you talk to the employees, when you see that side of it, when you see the the workers, they're not necessarily feeling that coming from their leadership.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, what I've seen so far is when they're not caring for their employees well, they know it. Like they know it and they can tell, and you can tell, and you can feel it. And sometimes their hands are tied behind their back, whether it's the church is not doing well, the organization is not doing well financially, and they don't have the resources or the know-how, right, to care for their people better. Um, I haven't run into one of those, I have run into someone thinks things are better than they really are, type of situation, but I haven't necessarily run into a place where the person didn't know that their employees deserved better care and they weren't getting better care.
SPEAKER_02Mm-hmm. I think, yeah. I was I was gonna say, Missy, that I think sometimes people think culture, like, oh, if I if I provide a good culture, I'm caring for the employees. But I I don't agree with that. I think that there's a micro and a macro. And the macro good culture shows from the micro behaviors of caring for your employees well. And if you care for your employees well, your team culture is gonna be really good. But you can't make a good culture and then after, you know, you can't say we're gonna work on the culture, but not work on the individual caring for your employee relationships. And conversely, when the culture is bad, you can still retain good employees by making sure that you are caring for them well. Because if you have those connections between each of your employees, then they can ride out a tough storm and then they can also band together and help you improve the culture. So that's just like in thinking of day-to-day activities that you can do to help care for your employees, the more that you can do to help your employees feel cared for, the more that they're gonna do for you. So you don't want to do these behaviors because it's a selfish thing that the employees are gonna work harder for you, but that's just a benefit that you get from building strong relationships with your employees and caring about them. Is I know, Missy, you would anything short of take a bullet for me. And I, you know, I think we this and the same thing that I I feel that about you and a lot of other employees that we work with because that trust is so strong. So, do you want to maybe talk about how trust comes into employee care?
SPEAKER_00What do you think are some of the things that builds trust the fastest between leaders and employees?
SPEAKER_02Okay, I'm gonna give you a couple couple of examples. One thing, and and all these people are like, Oh, I don't know, I don't know. These are all things I've seen, and I know that that's that it's true. So, one thing is giving your employees dedicated time. So a lot of managers or leaders are busy and they the first thing that they cut out are time with their employees, is time with their employees. So they cut out one-on-ones. Like I've had managers that I have not had a one-on-one or you know, a equity building relationship, a relationship equity building meeting in over a year. So the first thing that you need to do is have weekly or bi-weekly one-on-ones with your employee. And at that meeting, you can come with a little bit of your agenda, but the main thing that you're wanting to do is see how your employee is doing. What are they coming to you with? What's on their mind, and you let them steer the conversation rather than you steer the conversation. So that's the one-on-one time, quality time. And then the other thing, the other thing I would say is yes, you're really busy, but if your employee comes to your office, you should they should feel like the door is always open for them. So that's another thing. If an employee feels like their manager is like this to them, they don't feel cared for. They need to they need to feel that they can come anytime. And then a third thing I would say is to make your employees feel like they're equals. They are not down here. You are not, you know, doing this to them. Equals. So your opinion, Missy, is just as important as my opinion, which is just as important as an executive assistant's opinion, which is just as important as someone that just comes into the company. Like, there's not a hierarchy of value. There is a flat structure of value. Everyone is equally part of the body of Christ in your company. Everyone equally has a role. And if the employees feel like their opinion matters as much and they'll and they feel comfortable saying that, that's those three things right there, your employees will immediately feel cared for.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, I think that's good. I think I would even add uh failing well. Um and like bouncing off that trust a little bit, right? Like, you know, we had an experience at the beginning um where I made a decision and everyone could understood, understand why I made the decision that I had that I made. Um, but it did hinder some trust, right? And between you and I. And so then though, watching how we both navigated that and watching how we bounced back from that, I think that it made our ability to trust that we're gonna be okay, like that we can work through things and have the hard conversations, I think that also built trust more quickly because there was no like fear of disappointment. We know that's gonna happen, but the uncertainty of what happens when you do have some fear of failure, that can hinder relationships.
SPEAKER_02Missy, you want to know a really great outcome of that. This whole, like for the first 30 seconds that you were talking about, this I'm like, what is she talking about? What issue is she talking about? I did not even remember it. You know, this has almost been a year. Because there's a verse in the Bible like that that um God doesn't remember your sin or something like that. Do you remember do you know what I'm talking about? Yeah. Something like that. Like, I I didn't even not I did not even remember that anymore because we used it as a growth point and it actually made our trust closer. And I feel like it's just strengthened our relationship in general.
unknownYeah.
SPEAKER_02Whereas if if if that hadn't happened, not that so don't go failing all over the place, people, so that you can build your relationship stronger, but use failure as an opportunity to grow rather than an opportunity to erode the trust. Yes, yes.
SPEAKER_00So, how do you think I'm gonna kind of pivot a little more and kind of get us back into um just workplace care? How do you think that managers should handle employees that are going through personal struggles without crossing boundaries?
SPEAKER_02Oh, this is really, really good. And anybody that has been in leadership for years will have come across this frequently. And it's not even just like it happens every other year, it happens pretty much every month. And depending on the size of your team, there's always someone going through something. So I'm I'm a big person for boundaries, and then I'm a big person for having those boundaries be a little malleable, a little flexible. So if you have built your relationship with your employee, and if you have cared for your employee and they feel cared for, they will come to you when they're going through something. If they are going through something and they do not come to you, that might mean that you need to look back at yourself as a leader that maybe you haven't made them feel that cared for. So, first the first thing is if they're not coming to you and you're hearing from other people that they're going through something, take a look at why that trust isn't there between your and employee you and that employee. Let's say you've established that trust, you've cared for them really well, and now they're coming to you with an issue that they're going through. The first piece of advice really is to listen, make sure that they're able to say everything that they want to say about that, and then you and I've had this kind of this experience too, Missy, but then ask them for what you can do to help as the manager. So that's a really critical piece, and then try to do what you can to help them. But I would I always put a boundary on it. So, for example, let's say, Missy, that you you're needing work-life balance, you've got something going on, and we can we can, I could say, Missy, why don't you try for two months coming in at 10 o'clock instead of nine o'clock? That'll give you an extra hour in the morning without your kids to kind of you know take devotional time, be with the Lord, go for a walk, experience nature, and then maybe you'll be a little bit more balanced when you come in. But put a time bound on that, a time bind, time bind to tell them, time bound on that, and then at the end of that time, you can address with your employee if that's working or not working. But don't just say, you know, go take a leave or you know, do what you need to do, make sure that it's specific things and that it's time bound, and then that you're checking in on them. Another thing I would say is uh allocate time for that. So if I know Missy's going through something and we have our weekly one-on-ones, maybe for the first five minutes of that call, I check in and see how she's doing on that. And then I, as the leader, need to pivot the conversation back toward work. So, how do you think that coming in at 10 o'clock rather than nine o'clock is working for you, Missy? And then after we've had that conversation, okay, now here are the work things that we need to discuss. Boundaries, respect, but not ignoring it and realizing that you and I've talked about this a lot. Things that happen to a person outside of their work life almost always gets brought into their work life in some capacity. And you as the manager, if you're not there to listen and to support, you could just have a employee who is really good, but who kind of tanks like this because they're not feeling that support from you as they're going through a difficult time.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, I would I would definitely agree with all of those things. And as a manager as well, um, until it starts really affecting their work, um, really it's not your place. I know that sometimes that gets lost in a world right now where we where we kind of live, where we think that because of social media or whatever it is, that we kind of need to know everything about each other. Um, but work is oftentimes for people a place to go to escape from what's going on in their home life, and they really want to show up and do a job, their job. So, like we have mentioned a million times, it's going to infiltrate. At some point, it's going to infiltrate. And a good manager needs to be able to identify when it is infiltrating and how to step into action. I love how you were giving really good examples of balancing empathy with accountability. And saying, like, like let's have these checkpoints in, let's have this timetable in, let's let's make sure that there are these safeguards around the care that I'm providing you so that so that we don't lose accountability and that it doesn't just become a counseling session, right? Yes, yes.
SPEAKER_02I think that's exactly right, and that's where those boundaries come into place. And this it doesn't quite apply, but you know, in Habakkuk it says, I think where there's no vision, the people perish. And there really needs to be clear direction for the expectations in their job. And then you can see as a manager, if those expectations aren't being met, then there needs to be another conversation about it. Because even though people are going through things in their in their personal life, they should still be able to perform at an adequate level during during their time at work. We had an employee recently that went through a divorce, and that's it's been going on, it has, I think it was maybe a year ago, a year and a half ago. And there are moments of grace that you have to give to your employees, but then if it starts to impact the business negatively and you've had those moments of grace, then the conversation needs to be something completely different because it's not it's not fair in all the other employees of the company to have to carry the weight of someone that is not pulling their weight because they're going through something. Of course, you know, you help through specific periods, but once it gets to be a really long time, then what you're doing is you're giving one employee so much grace and it is adversely affecting the rest of your employees.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, because you're kind of enabling that underperformance a little bit. So what are some other ways that maybe you've seen Jen, just the caring culture, enable underperformance in their teams or in their in their staff?
SPEAKER_02Oh, I think that happens a lot. And and that mainly happens when you don't have boundaries. A lot of times leaders are afraid to address issues. I wouldn't say a lot, I would say 90% of the time leaders are afraid to address issues because they think I'm just not gonna say anything. It's better for me to not say anything than to potentially make it worse. But just like in your relationship with your husband, if you don't address something, it only is gonna fester and get worse. So what happens if um if an employee is being given too much grace or too much leeway from a manager, you will notice the other employees in the office feeling kind of resentful about it. And then the performance of the other employees will start to deteriorate because they're thinking, well, if this person doesn't have to perform, why do I have to perform so much? And for a short period, every everybody for a short period is willing to every single employee is willing to give a couple weeks of extra work to help another employee. But once it gets more than that period of time, you're gonna end up it's too dramatic to say destroying your your culture, but it it will really erode your employees' trust in you, and it will really erode their desire to do well if they know that they don't have to and there's no repercussions. That's why yeah, go ahead, miss.
SPEAKER_00No, sorry, I I was just thinking, I respect and desire and admire a leader who will ask me how I'm doing or where things are on certain things, because I know for me personally, I don't go through just like a big season of burnout. Sometimes I feel like I live in a state of burnout for a long period of time, and it has nothing to do with my lack of my lack of love for what I'm doing or what it is. It's just sometimes whether my friends have a lot going on in their personal life, my husband has a lot going on at work and or whatever it may be, life just gets tiring sometimes. And so when you have leaders who will are holding you accountable, I feel so protected, if that even makes sense. I feel really protected and looked out for because I'm like, thank you that you are noticing that I'm just kind of coasting, and you're not cracking a whip or something to make me get back into gear and be a high performer, but you're reminding me, like, hey, make sure that you stay on top of XYZ. Also, get outside and go for a walk, right? Like, it makes me feel really protected when I have leaders who are willing to stand there for me and just help me out. It's not out of being malicious, it's not even out of being causing embarrassment or shame, it's really about making sure that that you're staying head above water and that you're you're doing a good job.
SPEAKER_02Life is about cycles. Life is, you know, and biblical scholar Jen over here now is gonna quote Ecclesiastes into everything there is today, Jen. You're not everything there is a season. And life literally goes like this: good, bad, good peaks and valleys, right? Peaks and valleys. And a good manager will be there to celebrate with you in the peaks and will also be there and encourage you in the valleys. Like that's a good manager's responsibility. And maybe Missy does something really great here and then maybe a little less great right here, but then it'll go up like this if and your responsibility as the manager is to help them, you know, feel good when they're up here and help them feel good when they're down here. I think um stability. So, what role does consistency? You were talking about stability and safety. Uh-huh. And so the question I have for you is what role do you think consistency plays in this? So, have you had managers that have consistently shown care for you and you feel safe versus managers where they're kind of all over the place. You don't know when they're gonna, they might not show up for this, they might show up for this. Like, can you talk a little bit about how your experience with consistency versus inconsistency in managers and how the difference really impacts how you feel cared for as an employee?
SPEAKER_00Oh yeah, I've had a manager where her inconsistent um how she showed up to work every day was just very different, and I never knew what personality I was gonna get. Um, and whether or not she was gonna whether or not I knew she was on my side or like maybe had some competitive weird edge or something, it was really hard to read, and that relationship just ended up blowing up. Um, but then I can know because it's so present right now. My current boss, uh my current manager, she's probably one of the most consistent people that I've met, even in her own seasons of extreme burnout and exhaustion, right? Like she will get on the phone with me for five minutes here and there. She will respond to a text. Like, I'm still learning in a lot of different capacities, and she never makes me feel like a new learner. She always just makes me feel like she's shaping things that I have already in my toolbox, which is really cool. Um, that's a new experience. I think that she helps stay away from the ledge of burnout because of her ability to just be like, I understand that feeling, let's shape this. I understand where you are right now, let's let's pivot and let's do this. And there's never pressure. I think that's another big one is that a manager who puts pressure on because they think that's gonna light a fire, that's that is not the way to go.
SPEAKER_02Oh, I have so many things to say about this. Um one thing I have to say about this is that some managers like people who are going at Mach 10 or you know, Mach 12. They like people who are like, but that is not that is not normal, and that is not something that can be sustained. So there's some companies that hire people, you know, super high performers, and then when these performers go through that cycle, they're like, oh, cut them, let's get a new person, then let's go on the err. But then you lose historical knowledge. Um, you lose relational equity. There's just so much stuff that you lose. So it's better to give your employees the ability to go like this. And then isn't thanks, miss. Um, and then the other thing I was gonna say, based upon what you're talking about with your manager, is that one of the things that the point of this podcast that we're talking about is how to care for your employees well. One of the things that you can also do to make sure you care for your employees well is to give them that feeling of emotional safety. And by your manager showing up the same, if you're having a bad day, you can call her and you know how she will respond. And she responds that same way when I talk to her. Like it is, she is very, very consistent. And good managers are consistent because an employee needs to be able to predict how their manager is gonna respond to them. Yeah, people who've grown up with family trauma and they weren't ever able to predict how their parents were gonna interact with them, they grow up feeling very emotionally unsafe. So, one of the best gifts that you can give to your employees, regardless of if you're a good manager, a bad manager, a grouchy manager, a happy manager, one of the things that we can all do that can be a gift for our employees is to show up consistently. Even if I know that every time I call you, you're gonna yell at me. That's better than not knowing if you know if it's gonna be here, here, which missy am I gonna get when I talk to you? That's so true. Predictability and stability.
SPEAKER_00Yell at me all the time or encourage me all the time. Right. Don't encourage me once and yell at me another time. Because then you're kind of like, yeah, you're like, what do I do? I don't even want to go to this person anymore.
SPEAKER_02Yep. And you've got to, as a manager, you've got to lower your reactivity. All the ideas are now coming to me. The other way you can care for your employees is to be non-reactive. So if your employee comes to you with something and the first thing that you do is blow up at them, that's gonna scare them from coming to you again.
SPEAKER_00Yes.
SPEAKER_02A example of this is that I've had lots of people resign, and that not necessarily that I was their direct manager, but I was running a company where the people resigned. And one of the best gifts that you can give an employee that's resigning is to listen to them with care and understanding and try to figure out where they're coming from and just ask them directly where they're coming from. You know, if you if someone if someone resigns and you immediately write them off, well, that's maybe why they've maybe why they've left your company.
SPEAKER_00And you never know when you're gonna need that person down the road. That's something that my parents taught me at a really young age was don't burn bridges. Like I sometimes you're gonna find things that like you're gonna think that there's a reason to burn a bridge, and don't burn the bridge because you never know who's gonna be standing on that bridge that you need to get across at some point, and they're gonna No bridge is up. We're not putting it down for Missy. I'm just like, yes, and it's just like grace goes a really long way. Grace goes a really long way when it comes to burnout and caring for your employees. Asking questions goes a really long way. And speaking of asking questions, do we have a question from a caller today?
SPEAKER_01Missy, I had another question I wanted to ask you first.
SPEAKER_02Okay, let's go. What? Missy's over and done with Missy's gotta pick her kids up at school. Okay, let me ask you a question first. Um, can you share a time when you as a manager got employee care just right?
SPEAKER_00When I as a manager got employee care just right. Um I would say me as a manager is one instance that that is coming into my mind um is I remember a girl coming into my office and she was really upset and really overwhelmed. And I helped her to just put things into perspective um of priority and what matters and um our purpose for being upset um and tears and and what was really worth things and what really weren't worth things because that's what I'm always gonna go back to at the end of the day is if there's tears involved, let's ask some, let's ask some bigger questions. What's going on here? And I think that I really cared for that person's heart well, and for me as a manager, that's where I'm always gonna go. I'm gonna go to the heart first. Um, some people don't always agree with it, but we're all people, we all have to do a job, we all have to and want to grow and do well, and we can't do well when our hearts aren't being cared for well.
SPEAKER_02And that employee still would probably do anything for you, and you did a really great job managing her. One of the, let me just tell you one other thing I just thought of, which is um, I had an employee and we had like a coping strategy for whenever anything went bad. And she said when she was little, her mom used to sing her the Johnny Appleseed song. Do you know which employee I'm talking about? No. So anytime she came in and there was a problem uh or there was something really going wrong, we would say, Oh, the Lord is good to me. And so the Lord gave me the things I need, the sun and the rain and the appleseed. The Lord is good to me. I'm in, I'm in, I'm in, I'm in. And then we took that situation that was bad and we laughed about it, and then we were able to come to it with a fresh perspective. And I think that's just the type of like what you the example you gave, this example, that emotional connection, the employees knowing that they're equal and that they're cared for.
SPEAKER_00Jim, we do sing a song together. You and I do?
SPEAKER_02Yes.
SPEAKER_00Uh we'll go down.
SPEAKER_02Well, Missy, you know what? Why don't we hold off? Why don't we hold off on talking about that song until the next next podcast? Missy's a real dino fan, just as a you know, just to drop a seed for the next episode.
SPEAKER_00I can't even wait. I think it's gonna be so awesome. I think next time, um, just talking about some more real stories, some good practical takeaways, um, and just the continuation of building good culture and trust when caring for um our teams is is a great conversation.
SPEAKER_02One of the best feelings as a manager is knowing that you made a difference in the life of your employee and them coming back to you years later and saying, your management of me, me working under you, taught me so much and made me a better person. All right, Missy, who's gonna ask us the the question now? I don't care, so why did you ask about the question? Because usually we have a question every time. I don't know that we have a question this time, Missy. Here, I'm gonna oh, okay. Missy, I'm gonna pretend to be to be someone asking for a question, asking a question. Okay. Um is this from Ollie? This is from that no, we this is just from Jen. This is from Jen. Okay. Oh, okay, Missy, Missy, the the question from Jen today is for you. What is one question every manager should be asking their employees, their team regularly? What is a question that you as a manager should be asking your team regularly?
SPEAKER_00What's the hardest thing that you're working on? And what's the most fun thing you're working on?
SPEAKER_02Love it.
SPEAKER_00Most fun thing I'm working on is the podcast. Thank you for asking. I yeah, I did.
SPEAKER_02I said, what about you? Good. And what's the hardest thing? What's the hardest thing that I'm working on? Um, I would say the hardest thing that I'm working on is just getting the right people in the right seats on the bus. And that's something that as a COO or executive pastor, you're just kind of it's kind of always going to be in the back of your mind. Is this person better served here? Is this person better served here? You know, do we want to move this person out and get another person in? What skill sets do we need? It's a lot of people strategy.
SPEAKER_00Well, you're doing a great job, and it seems like our team just settling more and more in. So you're so you're doing something right. Well, thanks, Missy. I think it's just hanging out with friends like you.
SPEAKER_02Thank you for your time, Missy. And everybody last night. Oh, yep, and Sandra Bullock, Missy recommended two weeks notice. Which I can't believe I never saw before, but I cannot believe that you've never seen that before. Well, it came out about the time I was graduating from Princeton, so I was a little busy, Missy.
SPEAKER_00Princeton girl. Princeton girl. All right, it was so much fun staying with you, Jen. I like your shirt. We'll see you soon. All right, see you soon. Bye.
SPEAKER_01Thanks for joining us. Have a blessed week and lead on.