Do Degrees Still Matter?

We challenge the idea that a degree automatically equals intelligence, credibility, or job readiness, especially as AI reshapes what work looks like. We weigh up when qualifications protect people and when skills, judgement, and emotional intelligence matter far more.

• the producer’s question on whether degrees are always necessary 
• how degrees became a shortcut filter in hiring and why that can embed bias 
• our own career paths without degrees and what actually helped us progress 
• roles where a degree is non-negotiable because mistakes can harm people 
• why musicians, riders, and coaches show the gap between study and skill 
• proof of capability through portfolio, experience, relationships, and results 
• what degrees can signal and what they fail to measure 
• why work ethic, adaptability, and communication matter more as AI grows 
• when a degree gets you through the door and why it matters less over time 
• the core question of qualifications versus real capability

Have a question, a comment, or want to find out more? go to https://www.beabetteryou.ca/

Podcast thoughtfully produced by https://www.isleofsound.ca/

Transcript

Welcome And What We Stand For

SPEAKER_00 0:00

This is Straight Up Talk with Sharon and Peter. We are both Proud Brits and Canadians. This is a no-nonsense weekly podcast about people, life, leadership, and all sorts of stuff. We don't always agree. Hello, this is Sharon and Pete. I'm Sharon, and this is Pete Johnson. Welcome today to our podcast.

The Degree Question From Our Producer

SPEAKER_00 0:29

This is a special request from Chris, our producer at the Isle of Sound, who's sitting in the room with us, so it's going to be interesting. The question that he made us think about was is a degree always necessary? This is actually very timely. I recently had a conversation about that, which I'll share in a moment, but a bit of context first. Because of AI, there's growing tension between formal education versus demonstrated capability. We know that degrees still hold allure for many people and businesses, because many years ago it wasn't everyone who could get one. Are they the differentiator that people think they are? And when do skills and experience outweigh a degree? It's currently an employer's market, and many employees, employees right now want degrees, want candidates to have their degrees, because it's a shortcut filter, and companies equate degrees with intelligence, professionalism, credibility, even when reality doesn't always support that assumption. And of course, as unconscious biased. Peter,

How We Built Careers Without Uni

SPEAKER_00 1:40

over to you. Before I share my stories, your thoughts.

SPEAKER_01 1:43

Well, in in my line of work line, there was never a degree, you know, you know the sort of stuff I did. I um left school and went into the um I went into an office job for six months, eight months, I think it was. And um basically I lived local. It was in Straight and I lived about a mile away. And um they said, have you got any uh have you passed any uh exams at school? And I had three O levels in geography, maths, and um I can't think of the other one. I think it might have been French. I think I got O-level French actually, yeah. Wee wee. So um yeah, that was all I needed. So that was my first office job. I hated it. I stuck it out for uh I can't remember it was six to eight months, but that was me, and uh I decided to um move on after a while, and then the next job I got was working in a furniture department in a in a store, and that's what led me into the removals business, so no degrees for me.

SPEAKER_00 2:43

And no degrees for me either.

SPEAKER_01 2:46

Oh really? No, me or brain bugs.

SPEAKER_00 2:48

Well, that doesn't necessarily equate though, does it?

SPEAKER_01 2:51

No.

SPEAKER_00 2:52

My own background, I was a graphic designer, I got into the ad business, I don't have any don't have any degrees. I got into training because I'm I'm good at it. So I have my own thoughts

Roles Where Degrees Are Essential

SPEAKER_00 3:06

about it. Specifically, there are some professions where degrees are are non-negotiable because of course mistakes can seriously harm people. So we want our doctors, our lawyers, engineers, pharmacists, pilots to have to have degrees because we don't want well, I've watched three YouTube videos and now I'm removing your appendix. That just wouldn't work. So there are certain degrees that are required for certain roles, and then there are professions where degrees help, but they're not everything. So you'll often see ads required for jobs in in HR, in marketing, although I never had one, in management, in teaching, in coaching, in communications, in business consulting. And a degree might help someone get in the door early in their career, but ultimately experience, emotional intelligence, judgment, relationships tend to matter far more. We also know that some people are academically brilliant but terrible at managing humans, reading a room, handling pressure, giving feedback, adapting in real time. Whereas other people who've never gone to university can naturally influence people.

SPEAKER_01 4:23

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 4:24

Karma conflict, build trust, lead teams, these are skills that are difficult to teach from a textbook.

Music, Sport, And Natural Talent

SPEAKER_00 4:31

You and I were also talking about music recently.

SPEAKER_01 4:34

Hmm. Yeah, well, I mean, the the the music side of things, it's um you get a lot of uh people that go off and study music for two or three years and they learn to read music, whatever their particular instrument is, and it's you know, it's necessary that they leave the university with a degree in order to then get a job in that field. But most of the great musicians, I think, the one well that I call them the great musicians. I you know, I'm referring to people like the Beatles, the biggest selling band in the world.

SPEAKER_00 5:06

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 5:07

Great guitar players like Jeff Beck, and you know, the these guys ne didn't read a w uh a word of music.

SPEAKER_00 5:13

To begin with, right.

SPEAKER_01 5:14

Yeah, I mean Jeff Beck, probably one of the best guitar players in the world. Not many people have heard of him, you know, but but he could play, you know, he could play by ear. He was instinctively a very good guitar player, and he learned himself, he taught himself.

SPEAKER_00 5:27

So that is is then it's about skills. As you just said, people might go to university to get a musical degree, maybe because they want to teach it, so they learn how to teach it. But people have they have a have skills. I've used this one before with you, is is horse riding, another example. You can go and get an education in horse riding, you can get lessons week after week, you can pass tests for it, but you can still be a terrible rider. Yeah, and there are plenty of those. And there are people like you who've got a natural talent towards it, but you haven't got the interest to do it.

SPEAKER_01 6:03

Yeah, football coaches as well is another one, yeah. You know, like nowadays you get these guys, um, and for football I mean like soccer, you know, in the English English Premier League, they hire the top managers from all around the world, and these guys have spent tens of thousands of pounds getting coaching badges. But some of the best coaches, like the Alex Fergusons, Terry Vanables, who managed England, they they they took very basic minimum training, and it was basically uh it was a basic coaching badge that they got w whilst whilst they were still playing. They just attended a few sessions, uh did a few essays, and that was it. They got their badge and off they went after their playing career finished, they could became coaches, and uh in Alex Ferguson's case, probably the best manager in the world, league manager in the world.

SPEAKER_00 6:57

Well, I think that leads directly into doing one thing really well doesn't necessarily translate into you managing other people to do it.

SPEAKER_01 7:06

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 7:07

So you could have the a best skilled footballer in the world, like a David Beckham or somebody like that. I don't know if he ever went into he never went to manage a team.

SPEAKER_01 7:16

No, he went into uh other stuff, didn't he?

SPEAKER_00 7:18

He went into other stuff. Maybe his desire was there, maybe he wasn't very good at it. He was good at kicking a ball.

SPEAKER_01 7:24

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 7:24

His left foot player, but very good player, but maybe he didn't want to do that. Um but what's interesting then is of course there are professions where what you've done beats having a degree, things like sound technicians, sound technicians, people like this, yes. Yeah, graphic designers, content creators, podcasters, video editors, facilitators, even. Yes, you can go to school for all of these things and get a degree, but with that degree, are you going to be any better than that person who's learned how to do it organically and has got a big body of experience? So what's interesting is people now are more asking, can you actually do the thing? Can you prove that you can you can do it? Yeah. Recently I was asked if I had a coaching degree, and I was asked this by somebody who was talking to me about potentially becoming an affiliate, and I said, no, I don't, because I don't. I have got a vast number of years of experience in the corporate world and commercial experience, coaching and managing and no but no degrees. I got to be VP Client Services at an art agency without any degrees because I wasn't going to kill somebody, not intentionally, anyway, if something went wrong. Um, so I understand why a degree is required for something like psychotherapy because there's a potential for danger there. Whereas for coaching, I think it's more about the relationship between between you and that other person. There are plenty of people out there with degrees, but you don't like them. It's like going to your doctor. You know, again, you hope that your doctor's got the degree and not just watched a few YouTube videos or asking chat GPT, this person's got a rash what now.

SPEAKER_01 9:09

Yeah, and your BA pilot needs to have a degree.

SPEAKER_00 9:12

Yeah, also that that's very helpful.

Hiring Filters, Work Ethic, And AI

SPEAKER_00 9:15

Um so right now, I remember when we were back in the UK, we talked about this in the last podcast when I was applying for all those jobs. Very first line in most of the the job ads was must have a degree. But the psychology says that getting a degree can prove that someone can learn information, that they can regurgitate it, that they can follow structure, meet deadlines, maybe complete a long-term commitment, but it doesn't automatically prove any form of critical thinking. Emotional intelligence, adaptability, leadership, creativity, resilience, communication, practical judgment. These things are way more important now that AI can do more of the task-related stuff.

SPEAKER_01 10:03

Right.

SPEAKER_00 10:04

So when it's an employees market, the boots kind of on the other foot. This happened to me when I was in the ad business and I was a VP and I was looking for account executives, and they were kind of thin on the ground because there were more jobs around than there were people back then. It happens, it ebbs and flows. So I had these spotty oiks coming to me. They had degrees and they were demanding like 30,000 starting salary. This obviously is quite a while back. And I was like, not a chance. I don't care that you've got a degree. I'd rather take somebody who's got aptitude, who's willing to learn, and has got good work ethic. And I think work ethic is is something that that you and I definitely have. And you have to have strong work ethic when you run your own business.

SPEAKER_01 10:53

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 10:53

When you're sick, you have to get up and you still have to do it.

SPEAKER_01 10:57

Exactly.

SPEAKER_00 10:58

So I I think when you're considering putting a job description together and you're automatically putting on, yes, we need a degree, well, maybe think about that. What's the purpose of that degree? What's it going to help the person do? Um, because it doesn't really measure any of the skills potentially that AI can't do. AI is taking more and more of the jobs, as we know, as far as the basic things, but what AI can't do is it can't think in the way that humans can. It's not present. It can't read emotions, it can't pick up subtle nuances and shifts in behavior. So you can actually go on to Chat GPT or similar and ask it about coaching. And you can ask it coaching questions and you can tell it how you feel, and it might say, I understand how you feel that way, but that's not a real communication, it's just a mechanic playing back to you what you've said. So human and our humanness is way more important, I think, than any degree. So adaptability, flexibility, our innate humanness is going to be more important, and especially in certain jobs, who cares if you've got a degree? If you can do it and you can do it really well, and the evidence.

SPEAKER_01 12:21

So did you uh can get completely dismissed from this job that that because you had no degree?

SPEAKER_00 12:27

Pretty much. They said, uh, well, our clients won't even look at somebody who hasn't got a degree. So okay.

SPEAKER_01 12:34

That's a shame, eh?

SPEAKER_00 12:35

Well, uh such is life. There there's I know plenty of people with a degree, and I wouldn't I wouldn't trust any information with them. I wouldn't want to be coached by them. But if that's the bar that they set it at, there's nothing I can do about that. All my experience kind of goes out out the out the window.

SPEAKER_01 12:54

Yeah.

When A Degree Gets You In

SPEAKER_00 12:55

So one other thing though is talking about degrees, your daughter, your wonderful daughter.

SPEAKER_01 13:02

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 13:02

She was one of the first in your family to go to uni.

SPEAKER_01 13:05

I think she I think Jason went, but he he only lost his niece, right? No, my nephew.

SPEAKER_00 13:11

Yeah, he said a gender reassignment. Yeah, your nephew.

SPEAKER_01 13:14

Yeah, Lorraine's boy, yeah. He uh he went to uni, but he he he kind of discovered the pub, you know. So I think he only lasted a he only lasted about three or four months. Right. But he often yeah, he he he did go, but he he didn't he didn't he didn't uh succeed. He didn't leave with a degree. Whereas my daughter did, she uh she stuck it out at Portsmouth University, got a law degree, and then she was able to put herself out there in the job market. I've got a law degree, come and get me, sort of thing, and she ended up with a really good job.

SPEAKER_00 13:45

And now she's working in that uh environment where her law is for a construction. Comes at you comes in useful, right?

SPEAKER_01 13:53

Oh yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 13:54

Because sometimes people have degrees and then go off and work in something completely unrelated.

SPEAKER_01 13:58

So But in her in her case, she they wouldn't have looked at her if she didn't have a degree. That was one of the the uh stipulations that she had to have a degree, a law degree.

SPEAKER_00 14:08

And that was an entry-level job. And as I said earlier, that makes sense. That might get you through the door of some jobs because of the requirement. But once she continues through her career, it's gonna be her body of work that speaks for itself. That degree, the further into her career she gets, the less that degree is going to actually matter.

SPEAKER_01 14:29

Yeah, she's actually moved companies now, but she kind of got headhunted. It's like Well, excellent. There you go.

SPEAKER_00 14:34

She's a smart girl.

SPEAKER_01 14:36

Yeah. So takes after her dad.

SPEAKER_00 14:38

Yes.

Capability Versus Compliance And Closing

SPEAKER_00 14:41

And on that note, here's my it's a bit long, my brutally honest takeaway of the week about degrees. Are we confusing qualifications with capability? And does having a degree prove intelligence or just compliance with the system? Companies are increasingly realizing that knowledge is becoming commoditized. What's harder to find are people who can think, communicate, adapt, influence, collaborate, self-manage, emotionally regulate, learn continuously. And many of these are the things that traditional education systems don't measure well. Over to you.

SPEAKER_01 15:21

Well, um again, I'll keep it nice and simple. If you can stick it out of uni for three years and get yourself a degree in something you really enjoy doing, do it. But it it didn't hold me back. And um there are obvious benefits to having a degree, but depending on what line of job you want to take.

SPEAKER_00 15:41

So, yeah, as we've already said, we don't want a doctor who's been looking on YouTube out to sew your leg on.

SPEAKER_01 15:46

Exactly.

SPEAKER_00 15:47

We don't want people in law just to be guessing what the laws are. They need to know.

SPEAKER_01 15:52

Yeah, they need to know, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 15:53

Well, that's it. Thank you very much, everybody, for listening to this podcast, then thoughtfully produced by the Isle of Sound. It is good night night from me, and it is good night from Good Night from Me Too. Good night.

SPEAKER_01 16:07

Good night.