Lee Bullen on takeover joy, Chansiri, and why Sheffield Wednesday was the perfect club for him

Former Sheffield Wednesday captain Lee Bullen joins us on The Wednesday Word this week for a candid and heartfelt conversation about his remarkable journey at Hillsborough.

From arriving as a player and becoming club captain, to serving in a variety of coaching roles and numerous spells as caretaker manager, Bullen spent nearly two decades at Sheffield Wednesday and witnessed some of the most memorable – and challenging – periods in the club's recent history.

In this interview, 'Bully' reflects on his favourite memories in blue and white, the special bond he developed with the supporters, and why Sheffield will always feel like home. He also shares his thoughts on the highs and lows of his time at the club, the changing landscape of football, and his hopes for a brighter future for Wednesday following the end of Dejphon Chansiri's ownership.

A fascinating look back with one of the club's most loyal servants, packed with insight, honesty and plenty of stories from behind the scenes.

Transcript

SPEAKER_00 0:00

At the time I didn't realise, but having come down and joined and been there uh for so long, now now you look back and you realise it's the absolute perfect club that I could have joined.

SPEAKER_01 0:16

Hello and welcome to another edition of the Wednesday Word. I'm here with former Sheffield Wednesday Captain Lee Bullen. Bully, thanks for joining me. How are you doing?

SPEAKER_00 0:23

Thanks for inviting me, mate. Yeah, I'm doing great. Sun's out, can't complain. Yeah, I can only hope for better days. You've brought it over from South Africa, haven't you?

SPEAKER_01 0:30

Try my best, yeah. Before we start talking about you know your time at Sheffield Wednesday and stuff, um talk about the here and now and what's going on. As someone who's so entrenched into the city now, like how excited are you to see, you know, hope for brighter days for Sheffield Wednesday?

SPEAKER_00 0:46

They certainly say no the right stuff, but we've heard it before. Um but I do have a good feeling about what they want to do. Um again from the outside in I think at the moment is good with uh social media, but I think once it takes over I would advise them to come off the social media.

SPEAKER_01 1:07

Delete that immediately.

SPEAKER_00 1:08

Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah, it's just you know how it is, the mentality of the the the British football fan and how quickly sentiment can change off the back of a run of disappointing results or disappointing things happening off the field and things like that. It's just it'll be nice to get this season over and done with and then look forward to the exciting times of potentially what's coming up in the future.

SPEAKER_01 1:30

Yeah, because I mean you've you've not seen Wednesday at the best, you know. I mean I barely saw the best in the early 90s, um, but you know, you were you were part of some really exciting times at at Wednesday and you've seen what this club can be, right?

SPEAKER_00 1:43

Yeah, I mean we flirted with getting back there. Now obviously I sampled a touch of it as a player, um basically going from the third division into the second division. Um but the run we went on under under Carlos and Chansiri's initial takeover couple of years was second to none. The feel-good factor around the stadium and the crowd, and it just shows you the potential that Wednesday could be, should they make it back to the big time. Um, but there's a long road to go yet, I think, and I do think it's going to be a long road. I don't think getting out of League One is going to be easy for us next year, even without the points deduction. Um they're a big fish now. The expectation levels are going to go up in comparison to this. Um everybody will want to eat Wednesday, possibly Leicester. There's still some big clubs down there, so yeah, there's a big fight on in relation to just getting back to the championship, never mind further on.

SPEAKER_01 2:34

That was very noticeable when Windsor were down in League One before under Darren. You know, the it's don't want to say that every everyone's cup final, but you know, that the idea of it being a a game that you pitch up for. Was it the same when when you were in in League One with Wednesday as well? Did that have that same feel to it?

SPEAKER_00 2:48

I think it was slightly different under Darren. Um, we the season before I joined, I think they were two games away for almost going down to League Two. Um I think they had a big win against Burnley or something like that, um, second last game of the season or something, which retained their their League One status, and then obviously there's a big turnaround of players with Chris and a lot of players out, a lot of players in. But even though you you just you still got a sense that I mean first game of the season we lost three-nothing to Colchester. We won every game in pre-season, we beat Preston and doing well against uh Watfords and things things like that, and then you turn up everybody's buzzing for the new season, we lost 3-0. So yeah, dampner on everything exactly, or proper dampner. Um, but throughout that season, yeah, the pressure was there because you're expected to win every game at that sort of level. Now Darren had to go on a 25, 26, 27 game unbeaten run to go on their the form to get themselves up there into the playoffs and everything like that. And then ultimately on the day at Wembley, were we the better team? Probably not. People will probably question it, yeah, but nobody remembers it. We got the result and we got back to the championship.

SPEAKER_01 3:49

Yeah, I barely remember that game at all. Oh god.

SPEAKER_00 3:52

I think you and about another 40,000 people were the exact same. Don't worry, I wasn't drinking until after the game. Um listen, I remember them um the times of being on the sidelines with Carlos at Wembley and that sort of atmosphere. It's it's possibly the best atmosphere I've ever witnessed, and we ended up losing the game 1-0. Yeah, and we are uh I don't know, a hair's breadth away from reaching the Premier League.

SPEAKER_01 4:15

Yeah, I mean Barry always describes that as the best worst day of his life from a football perspective, obviously.

SPEAKER_00 4:20

I I fully understand his reasoning behind it. Um it was weird, we had lost the game 1-0, everybody's disappointed, we never made the Premier League, but I came outside and there's Wednesday fans still partying and dancing, and it was almost a celebration of the season. Um I think when you look back at it now, it was a freaky nature. I mean, some of the stewards in Wembley said they've never heard a stadium like that.

SPEAKER_01 4:42

Even Darren said that, you know, Darren won at Wembley with Wednesday, but you know, before that game, I remember him talking about being there as a as a as a guest for that game and what the atmosphere was like.

SPEAKER_00 4:52

Brilliant. Again, you can only take it for what it's worth, but it's if there's people saying that and they're talking about so many FA Cup finals, England international games, but then when they talk about that atmosphere, because let's be right, it wasn't Hull that was making any of the atmosphere. No, no, I mean they were we could have had another 10,000 at that game already.

SPEAKER_01 5:09

They were having their own ownership problems at the time, weren't they?

SPEAKER_00 5:12

Yeah, they were. They were, so we know what that's like, and um listen, the last the last year's been horrific. It's been horrific, um, albeit I've not been there, but you're still, as you say, you're entrenched in the city, and you have so many good friends that um you've worked with or you know work with and for them not to get paid. Never mind I'm not gonna I don't mean never mind the players and the coaching staff.

SPEAKER_01 5:34

No, I know what you mean, like because it it it it always for me as well, like no nobody should not be paid, and the players earn what they earn and you know they work within their means and you know everyone needs their money, but it did hit home a bit different, didn't it, when you found out the you know the people in the ticket office weren't getting all that kind of thing.

SPEAKER_00 5:50

100%. I mean I spent 16 years of probably a third of my life at the football club, so you get to know the people in the shop, the people that clean the stadium, the uh the security. Clubs need people like that. That's what clubs are built on. You've got John Murray and and and uh and Pete and everybody in the and Bev in the in the washroom at the training ground, but around the stadium, these people that's what clubs are built on. Um and it would have been desperate for one or two of them that maybe had to walk away because they had bills to pay, they could put from something they loved so much. Yeah, exactly, exactly. So um, yeah, light at the end of the tunnel, still a bit to go, but light at the end of the tunnel.

SPEAKER_01 6:31

What would it do for this place as a football club? You know, like with Wednesday and the hard times they've been on, and you know, we know what it was like when Chanceri came in and the the the bounce that came with that originally, you know, when he was chucking some money about and stuff, but like you know, with with Wednesday as as a functioning football club, this place could be could be something, right?

SPEAKER_00 6:52

Chris Wilder actually said it, he says it's a proper footballing city. Um you've got two football clubs, and could you imagine that our dream is to get Wednesday back there, but could you imagine if both teams were there?

SPEAKER_01 7:02

Oh yeah, I'd love to see a Premier League for me.

SPEAKER_00 7:06

The economic impact on the city as a whole, you've got players suddenly going from X amount of a lot of money to stupid money, but again, that's buying houses, that's spending money in restaurants, that's buying cars from local businesses. That's absolutely why. There's just a knock onto everything, absolutely, absolutely. So um it would first and foremost great to see Wednesday back there, but for me, I'd love to see, as you say, a Steel City Derby in the Premier League would be second to none.

SPEAKER_01 7:34

We've spoken about before, but like you know, as a as a as a lad that is you know moved to Sheffield and then gone and come back again, what is it about this place? What is it about here that that that got you?

SPEAKER_00 7:46

This you know what, the similar I'm I'm from just outside Edinburgh. Um so if whenever anybody asks me, I'm from Edinburgh, it's simple. Um but there's so many similarities. I mean, Edinburgh's built in six different hills, Sheffield's built in X amount of hills. It's very much uh around where I was brought up, there's a lot of mining towns similar to Sheffield. It's such a working class city. Um don't get me wrong, I knew my limitations, I knew I was an average footballer, but I knew I always gave 100%. I think that's possibly why um I was able to build that type of relationship with the support base here because they knew I was going to make a mistake, or maybe technically not as good as a Barry Bannon or Forestieri or somebody like that. But I don't think there's many players that would have played and given as much heart when they were out there, and given and I think that's where people maybe bought into because that working class mentality. My dad was a factory worker, my mum was a stay-at-mum home and look after the kids. So you're brought up in that sort of environment, and I think it was at the time I didn't realise, but having come down and joined and been there uh for so long, now now you look back and you realise it's the absolute perfect club that I could have joined to get the opportunity to play football in England just because of all those different parameters.

SPEAKER_01 9:00

Yeah, and you were with a good group as well, when you I know we've spoken about uh you know in in past conversations, but you know that there was a real sort of sense of togetherness amongst that that group, especially that you know the the promotion season.

SPEAKER_00 9:12

I think I think we had to be because I think honestly, individually, I don't think we were the one of the top five teams in the league. Um I think we were a group of waifs and strays that were thrown together, uh genuinely do, but we bought into that and I've I've told the story so often. I mean, Dave Allen had this clause in your contract that you had to live within 15 miles of Sheffield, that's where you had to live in. Um and virtually 99% of the players chose to live in Sheffield as opposed to living on the outskirts. So that meant after training, you're walking along the street and you're seeing one of your teammates having a coffee or out with his wife, or if you do go out on a Saturday night, I only went out on a Saturday night if I'd won, I'd never go if I got beat, but if you're out on a Saturday night, you bump into three or four of the lads with their partners or whatever, and it really brought that that tight-knit group, and I think that's really what got us over the line in the end.

SPEAKER_01 9:59

I mean 'cause does that connect you with the city as well? You know, like you're you when you're when like you say, when you do lose, you're not going back to somewhere that's not affected by it. You're you're in the area, so you know you you f you feel it more. You feel it more.

SPEAKER_00 10:12

Oh, you do feel it more, absolutely do feel it more. Um I think there's more and more under Carlos and uh the timers on the coaching staff, there was quite a lot of players either travelling up from Nottingham or Leicester or Manchester or Leeds or areas, things like that. And nowadays quite a few players quite prefer to live outside the city because of the the explosion of social media and and people trying to get a hold of it. Nah, they just don't get a break to themselves. Um so they want to be away from it, but I think the flip side of that, when we were together, there wasn't really this explosion, social media wasn't there, there was no the flip phones, there was nothing like that. There was a few internet chat rooms or something like that. Would have an opinion. I think I'll start with still getting it. To be fair, I have every chance. I think Paul Storik got quite a few written letters of the odd Monday mornings from certain fans.

SPEAKER_01 10:57

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 10:57

I've seen that guy out here and doing this and doing that type of thing, but it wasn't the same as the media say of a photograph of somebody doing something.

SPEAKER_01 11:04

Almost respectful, don't you? It's very different to sending an angry tweet. It certainly is. It certainly is. So I mean you you say that about the the sort of the quality of the players um and that there was you know varying levels there, but there were a couple of there that really stuck out. I mean, I think for me, like because Wednesday had struggled for so long and it'd been a pretty tough time. I remember seeing Chris Brunt and Glenn Woodby in in particular, who they were there, who's like, oh yeah, they're a bit special.

SPEAKER_00 11:33

Did you see that immediately when they joined? Virtually immediately, yeah. You could see that they were talented, talented lads. That and the big thing for me was their mentality put into a group of experienced pros of themselves. There was Chris Marston, who was the team captain initially when he was first brought in, obviously. You got characters like Hecke and Guy Branston, people like that, you know. They they wouldn't suffer tools gladly, and you've got young boys stepping in there with no fears, no airs or graces or anything like that. And um probably Wheeler was probably a little bit more of a leader than Chris, um without a shouty type of thing. He led on the pitch, yeah, and you could see him mature as the years went on. I mean, he was there two or three years, I think, um, and how he became a young captain on the pitch, not necessarily wearing the armband, but he would he did really drove and demanded standards and everything like that. You could see a little bit of Roy Keenan on and what he demanded from the other players, yeah. And he wouldn't have any fears of calling me out in the training ground if I make a mistake or or maybe not running back as quick as so that's fine because I would do the same, and um and then Chris Brunt's left foot is probably one of the left left best left foot I've ever had.

SPEAKER_01 12:42

Yeah, his goal at Leeds is one that always knows as my one at Leeds, if you can remember, that same day.

SPEAKER_00 12:47

Which one?

SPEAKER_01 12:48

I doubt actually.

SPEAKER_00 12:49

It was a brilliant own goal I scored. Honestly. We're three-nil up, and I slice one, I'm facing the opposite day, slice one into the top corner to get it back to three-one, and then the boy Creswell, ex-Sheffield United, scores two minutes, so it was ten minutes to go, we're three-nil up. I score a brilliant home goal, um three-one, nine minutes to go, seven minutes to go, they get back to three-two. We've got panic mode on as well. But we hung on, we hung on. Yeah, yeah. Yeah, Chris Bruns for the halfway line was just phenomenal.

SPEAKER_01 13:18

I I I think it because you you say this about their mentality, because I think it's one thing coming in and being good footballers, but you know, that they both had incredible careers and incredible longevity in what they did, you know. Glad and Chris both played pretty late on, you know, they kept going for a while. They certainly did. And and that only comes with that level of professionalism, right? That that's how you get that kind of longevity.

SPEAKER_00 13:38

You need a little bit of luck with injuries if you can avoid injuries, because that can uh hammer but again, yeah, I th the biggest thing for the top-level players now, and I mean professional players, is is the mental side of it. Even more so now because of this the social media side of things and what you're having to handle externally, but on the pitch and uh dealing with ups and downs and uh the weight of pressure that's on modern-day footballers nowadays. I think that mental strength is probably the biggest talent that somebody needs to, especially at the top level.

SPEAKER_01 14:07

Yeah, I want to stretch you about uh Liam Palmer because you saw not not his debut, you know, a little bit after that. Um, but like with with Palmes coming in, I mean 20 years. No, I did see his debut. I was around with his debut.

SPEAKER_00 14:20

He was one of my under-18 players. Oh, no way, right. No. So I was still playing when Liam was in the academy, but he was coming up, he was at under 18, and that's when I started my coaching.

SPEAKER_01 14:28

Oh, really? I didn't realise it was an overlap. I knew you'd it was later on, but with with Liam, because I I've spoken to a few people about Palms and his sort of career. What does it say about him as a person that he's managed to sort of sit through this this whole period and do what he's done for Wednesday and you know he's second in the all-time list of appearances now? Like, do you do you feel like Liam sometimes doesn't get the credit he deserves at this football club? 100%.

SPEAKER_00 14:55

100%. That'll never that'll never happen again. It genuinely won't happen again. In modern day football, that's just uh it's just it's a freak. Um he's been absolutely phenomenal. He's always one of these lads that you can hang your hat on, and he's become more and more important this season, having lost Barry, um, and and the different hats he's had to wear in relation to trying to because he's more than a footballer, right?

SPEAKER_01 15:21

Like he's done so much off the pitch. Me and me and Alex have at the star have spoken about it a lot. Like that Baz when he was here as well, like those two in particular have have been counsellors as much as anything else.

SPEAKER_00 15:33

Yeah, Baz Baz uh got a lot of the headlines with everything, but I think Liam does a lot of stuff in the background that doesn't mean aware of type of thing. Uh I'm standing with him chatting at the Star Awards last night, and um one of our supporters comes over, lady's just speaking to the two of us, and Liam, I was trying to get a hold of you, we've got a thing tomorrow night, and he says, Oh, I'm going. Already there. I'm going, I'm already there. He says, uh, somebody got a hold of me, and oh, I never got a reply. And so, you know, things like that you never hear about that. Liam gets on with and does really, really well. And he basically become a father fan. Listen, Henrik deserves any staff, because everybody just talks about Henrik, and his staff deserve every credit in the world for the way they've been able to motivate and uh cajole and integrate these young players into that group. But without your Barry's and your Max Lowe's and your um and your Liam Palmers, uh you're you're a dead duck, so it's so important. And even next year, I know Liam's getting on a bit, and people are saying, Oh, right, okay, but you need that in the change, you need him in the changing room. Yeah, I really hope he gets to that other 40 odd appearances that he needs. I really do. Um, whether or not it happens, I don't know, but he's got such a major part to play, even if it's a little bit diluted compared to what it has been, um, and just letting people know what the culture of the Sheffield Wednesday football club is. Yeah, because he really knows that.

SPEAKER_01 16:54

You've seen like a a lot of different uh iterations of Sheffield Wednesday Football Club when Chan Serie came in in 2015, I think it was, um what was that like? Because it it it it did feel I know that obviously what's happened has happened since then, but did you immediately feel like there was going to be some kind of success straight away, or was it like you know, when he when he started to put money into it and was it only then?

SPEAKER_00 17:23

It was probably I mean first and foremost I was gutted that Stuart moved on because it was Stuart that uh gave me my initial break into the first team after Dave Jones moved on, and and by all accounts treated pretty horribly as well. I th I think people won't realise it, but it's the type of thing that happens quite a lot in football. People get sacked over the phone or sacked via tweet or sacked via social media sometimes. Yeah, and it's uh it's horrible. And yeah, I've read the recent stories uh from and how he felt I and I I agree with Stuart, I think it was really, really harsh, and um I would have loved to have seen how Stuart would have done given the opportunity with that finance and being able to bring it. I mean Stuart brought Stuart brought Ross Wallace in. Yeah, it was Stuart who'd done that initially. So erm initially did I think again there was a lot of talk, it wasn't until one or two the players started coming through the door you thought these are top players here.

SPEAKER_01 18:20

Because you know when Barry arrives and Fernando arrived.

SPEAKER_00 18:22

Fernando and people like that, yeah. It's it's even like Pudel comes in and Tom Lee's Glenn Lewin's, yeah, and then you've got your hoopers arrive and your Fletcher's arriving slightly later after that. And uh it's big Attie, honestly. I thought the most lovable guy you'll ever meet. I wasn't so happy he's doing so well and he's coaching.

SPEAKER_01 18:41

I'll let you finish the story first, but I did actually want to chat to you about Atti as well.

SPEAKER_00 18:44

Yeah, no problem. Um, but that that was the sort of point where I thought you know what, we might have a half-decent season here, we could potentially push top half or maybe even towards the playoffs, depending on who comes in, type of thing. So, but then you start the games and you start to look at some of the football that's been played. Carlos comes in, and Carlos and uh Bruno and the rest of his staff they create this sort of methodology and the way that they get they want their game played. And I just think I'm not gonna say it was easy for Carlos because it wasn't, because he had to manage that group of players, but he had good players, so sometimes go and let them play, and that's what they did. They looked as if they just loved playing football, yeah. Um and again the headlines will be for your forward players or your midfielders, your Kean Lee's and your Barry Banners and your Hodges, but without Tom Lee's Keith and Westweed and and Glenn Lewins and that triangle that gave us a foundation to just play.

SPEAKER_01 19:42

Yeah, I mean West A I I've watched Wednesday for a number of years, I've seen some good goalkeepers at Wednesday, but I think it was a 13-14 season.

SPEAKER_00 19:52

I think he's the best goalkeeper I've worked with. Yeah, um, yeah, and I've worked with some good ones. He's got a screw loose, 100% got a screw loose. Well, some more than others, and I think Wesley had one more than others, but I've got so much respect for him, honestly. I I just think he was so quick off his line, his kicking was good, and the demands we talked about Glenn and the demands he put, it must be an Irish thing, I don't know. But honestly, the demands that he put on everybody's back like he would have no qualms of having a go at Glenn, and Glenn was a senior statesman, the captain. Glenn would give the same back, but uh Westy is uh he was different class, absolutely different class. Yeah, he wind people up and he'd upset people a hundred percent, but um that was his makeup, and that's what you loved about him. Yeah, yeah. He needed that, he needed that, we needed that, and um yeah, I think he's up there with the best goalkeeper of what they just on Attie, do you do you think he was misunderstood as a footballer a little bit?

SPEAKER_01 20:51

Because I mean Underappreciated, yeah. Because I always think with with Atti, like the the amount of longevity he had, yeah, he didn't score as many goals as a lot of people thought he was, or thought maybe he thought he should. But like there were so many big moments that he came up with over the course of his time at the club.

SPEAKER_00 21:06

There's two or three things with Ati. First and foremost, every single one of his teammates loved him. Loved him in and around the training ground. One as a human being and two as a footballer. They knew what he could bring to the team. Two Forestieri and him were good mates. I think Forestieri played his best football when he was there with Attie. Oh, 100%, yeah. 100%. And finally, I think he's just his mental strength. I mean, trying to get him to buy into the fact that he might not be the first choice, and he might be that sort of the best thing ever is 20 minutes to go, Attie get ready. I swear to God, I got into a rhythm of just looking at the opposition bench. Because you could see them, and they'd start going and they'd turn and look, and they'd go, Oh no. Because they knew the impact he could have. Yeah, he knew Middlesbrough hated. Them. Middlesbrough hated seeing them coming on. And they were the team that were up there, and obviously they got to Premier League and then came back down. But they absolutely and Leeds hated them. Honestly. He was on loan at Leeds. That one when the snow, I think it was in the snow when it was. That knee slide in the snow was perfect. That's perfect. So there's that's my favourite memories at Atty is that knee slide, and then his goal against Preston when he nutmegs comes inside and bends one at the time. Oh my goodness me. But he was so talented, and he just yeah, the opposition they just went into panic mode when you saw him warming up, they thought, oh my god, here we go. Yeah, he just I'm so happy he's doing so well for himself in his coaching journey as well. So that's great.

SPEAKER_01 22:46

I was gonna ask about that because is he the sort of because you know you know, when you've played been a player, then you've made moved into coaching management, that kind of thing, and you sort of I suppose you start to see things in different players that will make a good coach or a good whatever sort of staff member. Did you see that for Matty at the time or not really?

SPEAKER_00 23:02

Again, one of the good examples I think when I when it when I first joined as a player, I knew within three or four months that Hickey was going to be a good coach. There's the way he spoke in training and team meetings and everything like that. He was he was he was brilliant. He he understood the game so well, and he's he he probably saw the game better from a coaching point of view than he did from a left backs point of view. Right, okay. Um but Attie was initially, you could never have seen it, but then as time went on, he slowly but surely got more and more interested in it, started asking more questions, and and the questions he was asking were really, really good. Yeah they weren't just the sake of like oh not generics. No, they weren't just basic stuff, they were actually you could see I'd thought about it and I was was wanting the detail, and that's the difference in coaching, it's not just the basics, it's the detail, uh it's the small things, and then he started getting involved in doing his badges and everything like that. So um yeah, he took a real a real shine to it. So uh to answer your question initially, no. At the end, I thought, yeah, yeah, because I I think I think he's got a lot of empathy, I think he'd speak to players properly, especially the experiences he's had as a player. And uh it was Glenn. I had a good chat with Glenn at Barry's do, and um I was asking about Attie, and and and Glenn tried to get in. He says I'll tell you the story uh Chefy Wednesday, he says the amount of times because Attie and Glenn's wives are sisters. Okay, I didn't realise that. Yeah, so um Glenn tried to get into Attie's head after a couple of years at Wednesday and saying, Listen, this might be your role, and you might be the best player in the UK to deal with this role of being that subcontent. I don't want to be a sort of one-and-free starter, and and and any any footballer is like that, but recently Attie stepping at the coach and he turned to Glenn and says, You remember that five, six years ago when you said that to me? He says, I totally understand what you meant by that now.

SPEAKER_01 24:48

Yeah, that's interesting because that's a bit of self-reflection as well, right? It's a different kind of mentality that's needed to do something like that. Agreed. On your coaching side of things, obviously you you're at Wednesday for a little bit, well, long time, and and then elsewhere and bits and bats, but I I want to talk to you about your your time at Boston, because you were there with with Graham Coughlin, um like two former Wednesday captains in the in the dugout there. Did it feel like a a bit of a so is a heart back to what football's really about? You know, you're down the pyramid a little bit. Did it feel like really real and pure?

SPEAKER_00 25:24

Yeah, I I think when you're at that level, I'd I'd obviously gone up and been the the head coach up at United, and I was gonna say the championship sort of budgets in Scotland are probably on a par, probably slight below considering some of the big teams, so on a par with uh with the teams, uh majority of the teams in the in the National League. Yeah. You've got players on five, six hundred quid a week, you know. Um and they're these guys are playing for the love of the game, they're playing for the shop window of hopefully being successful at Boston and getting into the football league or doing well enough that they get a move into the uh into the football league. And um when Graham took over initially, and Graham's had uh an assistant called Joe Dunn virtually all his career when he's been at Newport and Mansfield and Bristol Rovers and things like that, and then when they left Newport, um Joe was more sort of a London lad, he got the opportunity to go to Gillingham, and assistants don't get paid anything like the manager, so the payoff you might get a couple of months or three months severance pay or something like that. So Joe needed a job, so he took a job in the Academy at Gillingham where he had played. So Graham was then at loose end in relation to having an assistant. Um so he just phoned me out of the blue, and it was perfect timing for me because I had left there and I'd been out the job and applying for jobs for about seven, eight months. So it's good, he says, Listen, just come in for a couple of weeks, see what you think, um, and then we'll take it from there. So I went in for a couple of weeks and got on really, really well.

SPEAKER_01 26:57

Did he took the captaincy when you left, right?

SPEAKER_00 26:59

Yeah, but we were together for a year. Yeah, yeah. Um he sort of he was he was obviously Paul Surrex captain at Plymouth, and I think Paul brought him in to be the captain. So there was a little bit, I'm not gonna say there was conflict or anything like that, but I don't think we we never really uh socialized together or anything like that. A bit of professional rivalry.

SPEAKER_01 27:18

Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 27:18

Yeah, exactly, exactly. Respect that rivalry, yes. But I think it really helped us together when we worked together there because I think there was a mutual respect for each other, we did know each other, but not too close, and that we could learn from each other and we weren't scared to bounce things off or question each other in relation to where we were going. So, and I think that was a big, big part of us uh getting that because when when I came in, um the club were 12 points from safety um staying in the National League, so we're basically down. Um but Graham signed some handful, three or four really top players that we need. We went back to basics. We didn't want to be passing the ball around our own 18-yard box causing our own problems, modern-day football. We wanted to play in the opposition's half. We wanted to play in the opposition's half. We brought in a lad who could throw the ball half-length of the pitch, so it gave us another option towards goal and put pressure on uh opposition defences because at that level players are playing at that level for a reason, they're maybe just a little bit young or a little bit short of getting in their league. Yeah, so the more pressure we could put on the opposition in their box, then we'd get it. So we brought that. Um and the following season we were hoping to maybe adapt the the playing style, but it was all about just getting points on the board. That was the that was the aim. And we suddenly hit this purple patch of form, and we it was just unbelievable from minus from minus 12. I think we finished five points clear and uh 19th in the league out of 24 or something like that. It was just an unbelievable run of form, and we were buzzing uh with how well we'd done, the players had done great, we were getting on well with the chairman, and then the following season, because we are paying that kind of money, we lost three or four of our top players because they could get an extra couple of hundred quid going to another team in our league. One went up to Wraith Rovers, who got an he went for like £650 to £1,000 a week. A couple went to Solihill Moors, one went uh a couple went to Altringham, that type of thing. So we are that's at that time Boston were that type of we were selling clubs, we were a we were at we were a stop gap for a lot of players. Yeah. So it was frustrating having to rebuild and then um start again. We brought in a lot of younger players which never probably worked out X under 21 players from uh from various clubs, and I think the league's tough for young players to go into. It really is tough because it's a lot of older experienced lads that have been up the leagues and they know exactly how to how to win games. Um so I think we'll hold our hands up and maybe made one or two mistakes with that. But the the form was just a little bit up and down. Um managers and chairmen have tete têtes sometimes in relation to wanting to get players in or make the squad stronger. And that's what you love about them. That's again it's that Irish thing, it's just um that little bit of Irish red blood madness in there.

SPEAKER_01 30:07

Well, I thank you so much for Sam, it's been an absolute honour. Um, thanks very much for everything, see you very soon. Good luck. Thank you very much.