How do I get a job taking care of animals?

We are often asked how to start a career in animal care, and today we are giving insight into traditional and non-traditional pathways to working in this amazing field. Spoiler alert: it’s a lot of hard but rewarding work. Brett Long, Senior Director of Birds/Amphibians/Mammals, joins us to share advice and stories from his decades-long career in animal care and husbandry. 

Episode Transcript

Transcript

SPEAKER_03 0:05

Hi, I'm Marin Lundy, and I'm Madeline Walton, and this is Aquarium of the Pacific. A podcast brought to you by Aquarium of the Pacific, Southern California's largest aquarium.

SPEAKER_04 0:15

Join us as we learn alongside the experts in animal care, conservation, and more.

SPEAKER_03 0:22

Hello, Pacific listeners. Madeline here. In editing today's episode, I realized that we never fully introduced our guest. So here I am, post-record to do so. Today on the podcast, we have our senior director of birds, amphibians, and mammals. His name is Brett Long. Thanks so much for tuning in. Welcome back to Aquarium of the Podcific. My name is Madeline Walden. I'm the Aquarium's digital content and community manager.

SPEAKER_04 0:46

My name is Erin Lundy. I'm also here.

SPEAKER_03 0:49

I am the Aquarium's manager of conservation initiatives. This is a really cool episode. Today we have our senior director of birds, amphibians, and mammals. Wow.

SPEAKER_04 0:58

So many things that they're doing.

SPEAKER_03 1:03

But I I we recorded the episode already, so we're recording this intro post. I really like that the conversation went more into conservation and the idea of conservation and working in the conservation field. So I think we're going to trick you with the title that it's about how do I get a job at an aquarium or how do I get a job in a facility like this? But I think you're going to learn so much more on top of it. So I'm excited. Brett is your boss.

SPEAKER_04 1:30

Yeah. Funny because I'm in charge and he's not in this room. But also I think it has always been, he's been a good example of sort of a nonlinear career path. And I think we keep mentioning that in different episodes, like Brooke was a dolphin trainer and now takes care of octopus, and we have people who worked in advertising. You know, like there is no one way to get into it. And certainly there is the very traditional tried and true. I did a couple internships, I volunteered somewhere and I work there now. But Brett's career path is very different. And I think it's interesting to hear how just tangential exposure to being around animal care can lead you to someday be the senior director of birds. Decking animal career in animal care, which I think is fascinating. And you're you're absolutely right. There is really no linear way to get into this, and I think that's true of every field. But if you are interested in learning about what it's like to work in animal care and how to get into it, we do get a little piece of advice from Brett at the end there, too. Stick around. So yeah, it's a really cool interview. Thank you for tuning in and listening. And hopefully this answers some of your burning questions about what it's like to work here.

unknown 2:32

Let's get into it.

SPEAKER_04 2:36

Today we have on a very special guest. He is the senior director of birds, amphibians, and mammals here.

SPEAKER_00 2:42

Hi.

SPEAKER_04 2:44

All of her titles are getting progressively longer the longer that we work here. Um I think mine started out as mammologist, and now it is several words long. So many words. What did you start as?

SPEAKER_00 2:54

I started off as the bird and mammal curator here at AOP.

SPEAKER_04 2:58

Yours hasn't gotten too much long.

SPEAKER_00 3:01

A couple words.

SPEAKER_04 3:02

So you're the senior director of birds, amphibians, and mammals. Can you describe for us sort of what that means?

SPEAKER_00 3:09

Sure. Um I I get to work with a large group of people that provides the daily care for most of our birds, amphibians and mammals.

SPEAKER_04 3:19

Like you. Just like me. Mostly amphibians, sometimes mammals, occasionally a bird here and there. Um but you didn't start here at the aquarium, although you certainly are from Southern California. So what where did your career start and sort of how did you get into this?

SPEAKER_00 3:33

I I sort of fell into it. I I I um when I moved away from home um and and was following my heart and following a girl, I I I I stumbled, I stumbled into an opportunity in Santa Cruz, California, and got to start helping out on a project that was looking at physiology and marine mammals.

SPEAKER_04 3:57

So when you were studying physiology of marine mammals, what did that look like?

SPEAKER_00 4:01

I I think studying probably isn't accurate. You know, I I was was the guy that liked to work or liked to fix things and had a knack for working on things. And so that the team of people that I worked with, most of them had probably grown up thinking that they were gonna either study or work with marine mammals and and and really were there to to focus on that. And I was like, hey, that gate needs to be fixed, and or that truck needs to be whatever that was, and and um and and it was a cool group of people and and it made me look at uh sort of working with an animal differently and and um and and so I formally volunteered on this project and again my scope or my additions to that project were really facilities and maintenance and and and yeah, here learn how to take care of animals on the side. Um and then uh uh a project we we got funded for a project that required um people that could build things, fix things, drive boats, and in this case uh scuba dive to help maintain some things and and so I I was offered a paid position well before a lot of other people that have been there longer, but because I had focused on some different activities and and then when I got that paid position, they're like, Oh, now you really have to learn how to take care of animals because you don't get to just do you know one thing.

SPEAKER_04 5:35

And so you were sort of pushed into animal care, although your true passion was fixing doors.

SPEAKER_00 5:42

I think like a lot of people, I I I certainly grew up with uh every animal that you could imagine at home, whether it be fish, frogs, dog, cat, a tortoise. And a tortoise, you're right, and a tortoise, a very long-lived tortoise. Um and and probably was more an aquarium kid. Like I that was what and and started working in a pet store. It was my first sort of when I'm 15, 16, and it was all about fish and and and to the point where my family let me dedicate a room in the house. Like I had my own little mini. Oh, yeah.

SPEAKER_04 6:14

His private aquarium where he was the curator.

SPEAKER_00 6:17

I had several in the house distributed, and then the parents redid the whole carpet in the house, so you had to take everything out in one day, right? So that you can do the carpet. And they're like, just put them all back in one room. So I had my own little room. And um and so I I I certainly had an interest in animals or a love for being around them. But I I don't know that I thought that was going to be what I spent the next thirty years doing, certainly. Trevor Burrus, Jr.

SPEAKER_04 6:41

That wasn't the plan originally. And so from there, which was sort of a research facility and you were doing primarily those types of things, you went on to do animal care at other places.

SPEAKER_00 6:51

Yeah, I I mean super lucky in that I spent about a third of my time in the field getting to work with some cool species out in their normal environments or natural environments, and about two-thirds of my time learning how to care for them, sort of in a research setting, because we were studying particular aspects of their physiology. Um I did that for 10 or 12 years and uh loved it. Got a passion sort of for science and data and asking and trying to answer maybe very difficult questions, but then realized that even finding the answers to them didn't mean that other people weren't learning that. And so I had an opportunity to move up to Alaska at the Alaska Sea Life Center, which was sort of a hybrid. It was a a research facility, so I was still doing the things that I was sort of comfort what I was used to, but it started to open that opportunity to have sort of a guest experience or a visitor experience that was broader than just the the research lab that I was working at before. And I and I think that that in itself started to sort of drive my interests a little. Like how do you get this story out? How do you engage with people? I can you fix things by peer-reviewed journals? I don't think that many people read those. But but maybe finding a way to reach them in other ways. And so I was up in Alaska for 12 or 13 years. Um similar work, different species, a lot of time in the field, loved it. Um and then realized that that, as many people do, I think. I I'd been away from away from home for 27, 28 years, had an unbelievable support network with my family all those years, and realized maybe it was time for me to move a little closer. To move a little closer and invest a little bit more in them, and had this opportunity to accept a position here at the Aurorium Pacific.

SPEAKER_03 8:35

Very cool. I want to know as someone who has grown up in California, what was the adjustment to living in Alaska just as a person, just in your just in your life? I mean, that's very opposite climate.

SPEAKER_00 8:54

And that Central California time really was the adaptation because it it's very different. It's very different than Southern California. You got used to cooler. I've always been coastal. So there is a it's one trend in it. It's coastal. And and so certainly Alaska darkness and winter is a thing. Um it was novel, so I think it was easy to adjust to in that regard. And you're and and and uh I I loved it. Uh the adjustment back was harder than I expected.

SPEAKER_03 9:26

Well, you have the excitement of being up there, new everything. Too much daytime here. It's like when you when you travel, your jet lag, once you get there, is you get over it really quickly, but coming home is a hard part.

SPEAKER_00 9:36

So it was an adjustment, but I think in the end I was built for cooler weather. And so, or maybe I've just added enough weight to keep enough weight to keep you warm.

SPEAKER_04 9:47

Um what was the adjustment like going from primarily working in a research facility, and I'm assuming closed doors for the most part, everything behind the scenes and working with animals for sort of a very specific scientific purpose, to going to an institution like the Alaska Sea Life Center, and then eventually here, which is primarily a public display institution and educational rather than being a research institution, although certainly there is some research being done.

SPEAKER_00 10:12

I mean, I I I think there were a lot of a lot of differences. Some of it was a lot of the work, it wasn't that you were doing it behind closed doors because you were hiding something. It was just that you were behind closed doors. And so you had a lot more control. The timing of how you managed, uh like you didn't have the additional, I would I was gonna use the word pressures, but I actually think they're good challenges. Like you didn't have that obligation to explain to the guest or the visitor or even a large staff, like you were just super focused, which meant that but boy, when you when you tasked on one or two things, you get a lot you feel like you get a lot more done as opposed to being spread out. Um and and so I I mean it it was a transition. And and so for me to, you know, go to a place that had no established show times, no or demonstration times, or or no real the schedule was your own. You made it start time, your end time, didn't matter. And then slowly progressed into facilities that you had other obligations that that are appropriate obligations. Um that that all of a sudden you're like, wow, I don't have control over this particular function of the day or this the when when when I might feed this animal or when not. So I mean it was an adjustment about it. But I think that the value of the you know, reaching 1.5 million people a year is significant.

SPEAKER_02 11:29

Yeah, absolutely.

SPEAKER_00 11:31

And and and so I think there's trade-offs and you you learn to work with that and realize that that's part of what it is, you know. But we're getting to fine-tune, and so I I often get in this sort of philosophical dilemma between calling things science or research or conservation. And certainly the first half of my career I would call participating in directed research. You get very disciplined, very create the hypothetical question that you're trying to answer to now that I think we're fortunately drifting into this conservation side that it's not necessarily a directed research question, but it's how we interact with or impact our local ecosystems or that type of thing. And so to me, it's it's it's not a a full arc, and I'm not returning to my roots. I I I I think that I'm getting to like see it from a different perspective and really focus on some of those sort of overarching um goals and and to see AOP I you know move in that direction. I think they've always been doing it. I think we're just being more purposed on the choices we make and then sharing that story in a more meaningful way than maybe some zoos and aquariums, including ALP, historically did. Because that was always the it's cool to do, but people aren't interested in that. So, you know, and now I think people are have an expectation that that's that's why we exist, and uh which I I'm I'm happy that expectation exists. Aaron Powell, Jr.

SPEAKER_04 12:52

But the culture change around zoos and aquariums has been really cool to see over the past, I don't know, decade maybe. Because I remember growing up going to a zoo and just knowing that it was to have a good time and not really expecting to necessarily learn about what that zoo does for local ecosystems or animals, and now you come into it and you're like, hey, cool, what are these species and how are we helping them in some way, shape, or form? And I think that's a really cool change to see.

SPEAKER_00 13:16

And I I think it's a great change to see. And I I I had a a CFO that I worked for that total respect, that that once asked, as a as a good CFO should, what's the return on investment? Like, how what's your return on investment in conservation? Like, because it's not a dollar thing. Like you can't say I'm gonna put in five dollars, I'm getting a hundred back, right?

SPEAKER_04 13:38

If only that were how it works. Every species would be safe.

SPEAKER_00 13:42

And and and I and I my answer to him very immediately, and I firmly believe this, and we're in 20 years or so we'll prove whether or not it was true. I'm like, do you want to be a zoo or aquarium in 20 years or not? Because I think the expectation is that these institutions, these nonprofits, for-profit, doesn't matter. We have an obligation now to be a part of that change, to be a part of that effort. And I think those institutions that choose not to participate in that are going to be less attended, which then therefore translates into you know not not there.

SPEAKER_03 14:13

And so I I it's a long game. I mean, even look to this year. You have a role that is specifically conservation-based. Yeah. That hasn't been the case. I mean, new last year, but yeah, I guess that was true.

SPEAKER_04 14:25

But it's been cool to see that that didn't exist before, and that actually exists because Brett created that role because there was value in it, and there is a lot of cultural change around Zoos and Aquariums in general. And most of the staff that we have here are super excited to get out and participate in local conservation initiatives. And it's really neat to be able to bridge that gap of like what that skill set is, because who else besides people who work at rescue centers ever handle marine people's day-to-day? Aaron Ross Powell, Jr.

SPEAKER_00 14:53

Well, how cool, Aaron. In in in your first year in this newly envisioned role, right? One of the not for checking a box sake, but literally every paid staff person on our team had the opportunity to participate in an external conservation project. That's huge. That's huge. I and I think the team feels that and supports it because I I mean they're alright. And we see that even in our recruitment processes now. That's the thing with the feedback we're getting, like, hey, why do you want to come to AOP? Well, we understand you guys actively participate in this, as I'm I'm glad that's I'm glad that's what people are hearing now.

SPEAKER_03 15:33

I think you're so right. The the expectation from the general audience has shifted, even in my I just hit eight years here. And going eight years. Eight years. Oh my goodness, I'm so old. That's like it's second grader. I feel like it's second grader. Um but just from the public's understanding of us and and their expectations of us too are very different. Um I think you know, we are a public facility. We are sometimes seen as an entertainment facility, but it's really kind of just literally lack of a better word, just to hook people and bring them in. Um look, we have I've said this before, we have cute animals, we have exciting things to do. Um, but when you leave here, you leave with so much more than just that. So I think both of you are very valuable to that effort.

SPEAKER_00 16:14

It's been fun for me in that in in the animal care industry or you know, oftentimes the species that I worked with were considered these megafauna that just naturally people are attracted to, whether it be the the the dolphin, the sea lion, the sea otter. I I think the fun I'm having now is that that we have again we we even utilize those projects to to solicit interest or like, hey, come see this, and then like hey, look at all these other things we're doing. And I I mean the the the amount of frog enthusiasts that that that have been created or that we see now. I and and I my my my family, it's like can you not can you can you stop talking about the frogs? Never. Never ever.

SPEAKER_04 16:57

My family came to visit and they're like, that's enough frogs already. You can't stop me.

SPEAKER_03 17:02

No, but frog people are so passionate, and I think that facilities like ours that thank you. Facilities like ours that um are uplifting frog stories and amphibian stories in general, um, we're really reaching an audience that truly cares. And and you do a good job of explaining that, you know, frogs are really such an indicator of our planet. And so and 41% of amphibian species are threatened with extinction.

SPEAKER_04 17:26

So get a little fun with the same thing. She just knows that it's a really sad fact. Yeah. So help us.

SPEAKER_00 17:32

And I think there's this again, we're we're we're sort of packaging these conservation programs now, but i in a very appropriate way. I I was I super excited this morning. I'm like, hey, I got mail. It's actually for me, not something I opened up and it and it was these t-shirts that our team here has made that are supporting our white abalone work that you're talking about. And I'm like hanging in my eye, I'm like, hey, now an abalone guy. You know, I mean, I'm not really, I'm just part of it or on the side.

SPEAKER_04 17:58

You're advertising. Advertising. Oh, geez. Anyway. Um I think a lot of people are very curious as to know how to get into animal care. They see you know, they see the things that are highlighted on social media, they see people training a sea lion. And the question we get asked all the time is how do I do that? Yeah, I want to do that. Please, can I do that? And certainly there are really great aspects of the job and there are downsides to the job as well. But um most of our listeners and a lot of our audience want to know how to get into this field. And so what did you study? What would you recommend people study, and sort of what does that what could that look like?

SPEAKER_00 18:36

I I always think that I'm not the right example.

SPEAKER_03 18:40

Which is why you're the right example. Yeah, a perfect example, actually.

SPEAKER_00 18:43

And and I think it's changed a lot. I I I I shouldn't even say I think, I know it's changed. How how you get into the field, uh what certifications or what degrees you need have changed and altered. And for me, um I I uh surprise a lot of people um because of the type of work that I did. I did never finish my undergraduate work. Um some of that is my personality and the way my brain works. I'm a more of a hands-on person and probably struggle a little bit more with sort of like classroom learning, you know. But at the same time, uh the first job in the industry, I was working at the marine lab at the university for the professors, and I would go up and sit in the front row, try to be a good student, and they would be lecturing about the work that we were doing, which is really cool because you're a part of it. And then as a joke, and I tease them to this day 30 years later, they'd go, Brett, what what are you doing here? You should be working. And I'm like, Okay, I gotta go to work, you know. And so so I I I was like, I I I was fortunate in that I think my willingness to maybe do the jobs that not everybody wanted to do uh helped me in that capacity that I got to do some and I get to do some really cool things. I think that historically in our industry, it really has been to get in, it's based on volunteerism and internship. And that's changing and it needs to change because I uh in a positive way. I I still volunteering is phenomenal. Love it. I I love that aspect of the staff that work with us. I do it in my personal life. Like that, that's a but I but I do think that it it's a little not unfair, wrong word, unequitable to mandate volunteerism to get into a job when there are many people that would love to volunteer, but they have obligations that keep them from doing that.

SPEAKER_04 20:34

They can't quite make that work in their life.

SPEAKER_00 20:36

And so I I I think that historically in our industry, that's how we started, right? Everybody started as either volunteer, they did one or two internships, and then we're now recognizing that that pathway in itself probably presents some barriers to people. So how do you open this up? Um I I think that my recommendation to people is i is you almost just need to be a known person. So uh I I I think certainly being passionate, um, I do think that in general completing a college degree still helps. I don't I I do again institutions are trending away from that as a requirement. They'll often say that or an equivalent experience. Um but I think that's where you can make the connection sometimes. Um certainly if you're getting to high school students as opposed to college students, or if you're getting to you know, a a younger group, it it's hey, learn to invest in your community, invest in in working around your local aquarium as a as a kid, become involved. That helps. Um I I think that our in the on the Bird Amphibian and Mammal team, our hiring practices have have changed the last uh several years. And to me, again, very positive, but I think it's gonna take a little time for us to be able to be uh unequivocally say this is what but uh I mean here at this facility It's about how we connect to the guests. And I I'm I find it a lot easier to teach people how to care for animals than I do to teach people how to care about interacting with the guests.

SPEAKER_04 22:09

And the team too.

SPEAKER_00 22:10

You know, and the team. And and and so what we're looking for people right now that are team players and interested in building up the team, and then we can teach you how to take care of the animal or teach you other stuff. And and and so I I and when I talk to my colleagues that are in similar roles and positions, um, I'd like to say that, hey, we're at the forefront of this and we're on and I I think a lot of people are starting to realize that's sort of like again, it it's about the team. I mean, I started you ask what do I do? I didn't say that I take care of animals, I said I I I work with a large team of people that that were tasked with this, and and that's the that's the ticket. Like getting people that want to invest, even our conservation stories are not our stories, our investment. I mean, in order for us to get 100% participation of staff out there, then those that aren't out there have to work harder. Right. And so if you're not willing to you're investing in each other all the time because Alex gets to go and participate in some marine mammal rehabilitation work. Well, uh it's not that Alex's work didn't get done back here, like the And he's not doing it on this day off, he's not doing it, you know, like it's allocated. And and so I think that that getting, you know, really coming in as a I believe in the team, I believe in the community, I believe in that, that that sets people apart for me now when I'm going through those sort of hiring processes and looking, and you gotta you gotta want to work.

SPEAKER_04 23:41

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 23:41

It's and that's a that's almost a bad word nowadays. Work is a four-letter word, right? Like or it can be, and I there needs to be balance, and I and I don't model that well. And and but I think I'm better at not expecting, you know, like not better at other people. I I'm getting better at not expecting. Of course, of course. You know, but but I but I to a certain component that you you gotta want to work.

SPEAKER_04 24:07

It's been interesting to see sort of how the team dynamic has changed over time, but I I think it goes back to sort of what you said that exposure is really the number one key to getting into this field and whether that's being someone who is known to a facility, like even our regular visitors, I get to know. Like there are aquarium members that I see all the time, and I actually have conversations with them, and it is much easier to pick out that name from a resume than it is to not just talk to people at the aquariums where you work, get to know them. But if you have the opportunity to find a way to integrate into it, I think the other part that people don't always realize is that there's a high chance it's not for you. As fun as it can be, that's like two percent of our job, is what you see on social media. And Madeline's done a wonderful job of highlighting what the reality of it can look like, but certainly you see someone having fun. I see it. But I see you guys.

SPEAKER_00 25:00

I think that's a lot. I I agree with with what you're saying. This isn't cut out for everybody. But equally important, I don't think it has to be someone's lifetime choice. Yeah right. And so I think we've had to change almost modify our definition of success, or how do you qualify uh good retention? Well, I again I if I have a person that put in all for four years and after four years was like, hey man, what an experience, and this is what I've learned about myself, and I'm gonna deviate into this other pathway. I don't look at that as a failure anymore. I and I certainly used to. We were taught to look at that, oh we lost a person, oh you know. I'm like, actually, you know what? Like because this is it it I would change, well, maybe there's a few things I might change about my pathway to wear. But I don't regret many of those things. And I love the things that I've experienced, but it is not, I mean, it's it's cold. It's wet. It's fishy, stinky, smelly. I have not glamorous work.

SPEAKER_04 26:01

Like it you're just walking through a crowd of people like, it smells terrible.

SPEAKER_00 26:05

You're like, okay.

SPEAKER_04 26:06

I'm so sorry.

SPEAKER_00 26:07

It's either bleach or fish, right? Like on the good days, it's bleach or fish.

SPEAKER_04 26:12

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 26:12

It's not as glamorous as it looks when you can't smell us. And if it's not something that maybe you're not interested in, there's so many other roles in facilities like this, like social media, like science communication, so many other things that you can do, or you can be around amazing people like you, and you know, only touch fish if you really feel like it that day.

SPEAKER_00 26:31

Well, and I and I I like what you just said, Bradley. And I and I think again when I look at the team dynamic and and where people sell me in an interview is also when they value those other experiences in this place. Like we are one very large team, and not any one of our departments can can can survive in isolation. Right. Like and and I and that needs and in the animal care field, I don't think that's always been the sentiment of those that are doing the animal care. Um I I think that's changing, and I'm happy that's changing. There's a little bit of a culture shift there. Again, not referencing any this is 30 years of watching people.

SPEAKER_04 27:22

So, in your experience over the past couple decades, how has animal care changed? What does that look like? How is it different than when you started and has it improved? Hopefully.

SPEAKER_00 27:33

I mean, it I I think it's yes, it has improved. And I think we can demonstrate that very empirically, like from a data-driven standpoint, and uh a feel about it, right? And that's the part that I think that we're this pendulum is swinging back. Because like in my generation of coming up in animal care early on, there was this like, hey, we're scientists, we're not feely people, like like no anthropomorphism, and you can't tell what an animal feels, and like and you and now I think we're allowing that sort of back in to like uh because it feeling your your gut or how does it how does this make you feel I think contributes. And and so you know, I we used to call it animal care, and animal care to me now is you you know the needs of the animal, the environmental parameters, the nutrition that they need. That's animal care. Like, yeah, uh you clean things, here are your protocols. Now we're looking at it this broader, like, is this animal thriving in that environment? And and and and how we define what thriving is. There's some variances in that. But so I I think we look at it differently, and we're looking at it at a much I at the same time a broader lens, but then a very focused effort to ensure that that that our animals that are in our care um acting like they're supposed to.

SPEAKER_04 28:58

They're supposed to. For lack of a better term.

SPEAKER_00 29:00

And so I I feel like that's very positive and and very different than how we evaluated our animal care programs maybe 15, 20, 25 years ago. So we've we've improved. And then that's been a hard, not a hard sell, but a hard transition because I think we certainly I was brought up and assisted that we are very proud of our animal care. It should have been. Very clean, very spotless. Like I would eat off that floor and not food prep space, you know, like maybe dumb. But um, but I think that we now realize that that that there's these other components that we have to be looking at, social structures and this type of thing. And and I think that most modern zoos and aquariums are are uh not even trending, they're they're in that direction and and we need to keep going that way, which is why I think it's better now. But I don't think we could be where we were if we didn't have the experiences we had to to learn, you know, like uh it does feel like the approach is a little bit more holistic now than when I started.

SPEAKER_04 29:59

Even I started ten years ago, geez, and you know, started working around animals. It was very much like sanitize everything. And you know, there are animals for which that is not an appropriate way to handle things. There are animals that need a microbiome around them. Frogs exist in their own muck and in their own sense, you know, like and that's healthy for them. You don't want a frog in a completely sanitized environment, and it's the same for a lot of species, actually. And I think that has been a really cool change to see is that people approach animal care and now animal welfare, and they look at the animal, they look at their environment, they look at all of these things that we maybe didn't consider before. Oh, is the glare a little bit too bright in here for this animal? And try to see things from their perspective. And I think taking the human perspective out of it and then looking at it through their lens has changed it.

SPEAKER_00 30:54

Like frog exhibit.

SPEAKER_04 30:58

Right, that's what it's called to frog. Facing facing a changing world. There we go. Good marketing employee.

SPEAKER_00 31:06

Um but I even that process, it and Aaron, you saw or unfortunately got to experience my free flow of brain coming out going, wow, the way that we're looking at these environments are so different. And and there is a an it was unintended initially, and then it was very intentful that w from a welfare perspective, and like we're creating and and we know that I mean I think it's all been positive feedback, which is lovely, but people are like, boy, they're really hard to find sometimes. Well, that's part of you know, like the experience of being frog. And because we now know that providing that bioactive environment that provides both shelter and and lighting parameters that that that's what these animals need, and and we're willing to tell that story, recognizing that there might be a day in the guest box and they might not see their favorite frog.

SPEAKER_04 31:55

But just come find me and I'll point them out for you.

SPEAKER_03 32:00

I will say again, that exhibit is so beautiful. You guys did an amazing job up there. It's it's unreal up there. If you haven't visited the aquarium yet, frogs facing a changing world. Right. Yep, you got it. Mailed it. Opened um almost a month. Almost a month ago. Yeah, it's a couple of weeks now. Yeah. Yeah. And it's it's really spectacular, so you have to come and see it.

SPEAKER_00 32:20

It it was a s a special experience. Like that. There was some a lot a lot of cool team activity going on there. A broader team. Like that it's been fun.

SPEAKER_03 32:31

Space has been transformed. It's really cool to see us focus on amphibians so much where you know mammals have their area, the fish and invert sides have their area, and I feel like amphibians are kind of this new moment. They're a new guy on the block.

SPEAKER_04 32:44

Yeah. I mean, amphibians are basically marine mammals. They spend part of their time in the water, part of their time on land, and they eat a lot. Same thing, basically. I don't think my job's changed that much over the last couple of years. But yeah, it's definitely it's definitely been interesting to sort of watch that transition. And um I have a question for you that Madeline is also going to ask of me, but how do you sort of decide from your position what conservation the aquarium participates in or at least our team participates in?

SPEAKER_00 33:12

We are trying to be more mindful of that process and and not following trends or not trying to predict where things are going as much as, you know, like I I think that w my mind, I look at sort of ecosystem impact, community impact, and I I'm trying to make myself love Southern California again, right? Like I I I mean in a because I've lived in some phenomenal places that it's so easy to be a conservationist when you're out in the middle of, you know, but and when only 700,000 people live in your state, let alone 15 million in in a 50-mile perimeter, you know. And and so I I think that Aquarium the Pacific is geographically at location, location, location. Like we are in a phenomenal location. And I and and we we have the opportunity to go geographically a lot of places. It it fit within sort of our mission parameters, but there there is so much going on in the Southern California ecosystem that I I think that we were looking afar for a while and now we're trying to look at because I because I don't think the aquarium can solve it. I I I I I I don't think any one entity can solve it. It's gonna take a community and and this network of places. And so certainly right now, I I think that you know no project is our project.

SPEAKER_04 34:36

Or a partner. Or a partner. All projects.

SPEAKER_00 34:39

And um and I love that that's what we're looking, because I think that partners are gonna create more effective change than than any single institution or single entity. And how does that how do you then expand that into you know, community participation or guest participation, or how that is, and and and and so and I mean, and certainly you do have to put your mission hat on and go, hey, is is this about Pacific Ocean related activities and and make sure that we start try to stay as true to that as possible or create that kind of, you know, but I don't know if that answered your question.

SPEAKER_03 35:15

I think it does. Um I have a question. So going from somewhere like Alaska where you're so connected to nature and you see everything right there, versus working in Southern California on conservation efforts, do you find it disheartening sometimes seeing the cause of a lot of the issues that animals face?

SPEAKER_00 35:34

It's just like the dark part of the podcast, right? I I mean because uh none of us I don't even remotely promote that I think that I have the the reasons why, and that and and as much as I've been academic adjacent, I am not an academic. Um but I mean people are the problem, right?

SPEAKER_03 35:52

Like And you're faced with it.

SPEAKER_00 35:54

So I mean And I think that the reverse of that to me was I what I recognized in living to Alaska is that Alaska is pristine, not because the people are conservationists or environmentalists. They just they're not there. And so you come back here and you're like, how do you affect that change? Like you're you you just hit it, like trying to get our communities to be more respectful of those environments. And I think it's part of the reason why I've become a little more interested in in these smaller, maybe smaller in scope projects, but not you know, like how do you get someone to I mean the our monarch uh butterfly programs that we're looking at community gardens and investing in those, like that's how you do it, right? You got to get these people to be passionate and want to be involved and make it about a 20 by 30 square foot plot of land in the middle of uh suburban or downtown Long Beach, people are gonna connect to that. Absolutely, I do think that that leads to our like so it it it can be tough, but I but I in my head, right or wrong, because I don't know that I'm right, Alaska was beautiful because there were no people in it.

SPEAKER_03 37:07

Or not enough people to muster, you know, like coming from Hawaii and and moving to a place um I I know you lived on the East Coast too, very different locations as a conservationalist.

SPEAKER_04 37:17

Um I think it's I mean it's similar. It's definitely that people contribute the most to sort of the environmental damage, unfortunately, that we see. And it's I don't think it's ever intended to be damaging. And I think that's where it's hard is people aren't trying to ruin things. People aren't trying to do any sort of damage. They want to help, they just don't necessarily know that. They don't know how.

SPEAKER_00 37:41

Yeah, or how or what can they do to help you?

SPEAKER_04 37:43

And I don't necessarily think that the way that our society and our economy and everything is set up is made for people to be able to help. And I think we are seeing a shift and we are seeing people start to prioritize that and actually put economic value on environmental things, which is really, really cool to see. Like blue carbon initiatives, and there's talk about, you know, giving biodiversity credits. If an ecosystem is biodiverse, generally that means it's healthy and that's worth money to someone. That is really cool to see those changes becoming a thing. But I think a large part of the issue is that people are just not given the tools or the access or the time, and it just really isn't set up for us to be a part of our ecosystem. We still consider ourselves people who are separate from the environment and we are not part of the ecosystem. Therefore, why does it matter what's happening? And I don't think people necessarily recognize that we are very much animals still living within an ecosystem.

SPEAKER_00 38:38

Because I think sometimes I can certainly take a darker view on people in general. But I think you're right. A majority of the people out there, there is no intent to cause damage. They want to help. So then how can we find a way to help them understand to lessen that impact or to help them help, you know?

SPEAKER_04 39:04

Give them a platform to do that or make those things more worthwhile or worth money so that people can do that for a living. And I think that's the disconnect, and that's what's a little bit difficult about it. So it's a multifaceted issue. Um, Hawaii is beautiful, but again, even Oahu, where I grew up, is significantly more developed and significantly more impacted than the Outer Islands because there are so many more people. And so I think it's gonna take a lot of time. I think it's gonna take a cultural change, and hopefully we can undo some of the damage that we've done before. It's a little bit too late, but it is tough out there.

SPEAKER_03 39:38

Um you told a story on our friend's podcast, The Peliconus Podcast. I remember what story. Um the story was about a ecosystem here in California that over the course of your career has changed significantly. Oh, Elkhorn Slough. Yeah. And I think that's a a really great story to talk about. You know, you're seeing the impacts in real time.

SPEAKER_00 40:00

And a positive impact. Exactly. Which which is the cool part to me the cool part of the story. Because I do think that a lot of the stories we tell, we don't intentionally make them doom and gloom, or we're often telling the the hard part of the story, or that this is the impact, or the population has dwindled to this, or that type of thing. And so for me, this one, you know, I again it goes right back to some of my first opportunities to work in this field. And I I was based out of Santa Cruz, California, working for several professors at the university, and one of those professors was studying harbor seal populations in this particular body of water called Elkorn Slough, which is right uh estuariing system. Feeds it feeds into Monterey Bay. And um and I, wow, what a fun project. I mean, you you're feeling like a a a young cowboy out there getting in it and and collecting samples from these animals to learn more about them and do all that kind of stuff. But Elcorn sample. Uh all all your blood samples, hair samples, fecal samples, urine samples, you name it.

SPEAKER_04 41:03

How did you collect a fecal sample from a wild otter?

SPEAKER_00 41:07

Well, I was the guy that had to hold the seal. So that's I I stand it off. Um, I uh the those samples were collected. We would do a short-term capture and and hold the hold the seal, and then you could use uh a catheter to collect a sample.

SPEAKER_04 41:23

That's very interesting. I've never thought of that.

SPEAKER_00 41:24

Or you could collect it off the beach when they left. Then you just didn't know which seal it was. Sometimes it was important to know which seal as opposed to.

SPEAKER_03 41:33

I think stories like this are important to see. Do you want to work it in like some people like that? So we always had to choose.

SPEAKER_00 41:39

I was because of at that time, probably my size more than anything, but I always got the bitey end, which I was very happy with because I'm like, you guys can deal with the back end. I'm gonna take the bitey end, you know, and so I spent more time facing front than but so the this Elkhorn Slough it I mean it functionally is in an agricultural area that in the in the 90s, 80s uh was agricultural sludge. I mean, literally, you would go through this muck, this mud, that when you stepped in it, you could smell like the sulfur egg smell because it was just inner or anaerobic sludge. Um we used to tease like we didn't know what we were gonna catch later because you're like, this can't be good. Um and we weren't there for the slew. We were there because the seals utilized the slew and we were studying the seals. And you know, 25 years later, now we're getting to participate in a project that's not looking at seals, it's looking at sea otters and sea otters' impact on their ecosystems. And Elkhorn Slough happens to be a location that is it's been demonstrated that by the otter population recovering in that slough, whether that recovery was because rehab animals were going into there and re-establishing, or whether it it was the population was growing on their own. Um, it's an entirely different ecosystem now. You put that keystone predator back in that eats the herbivores, then the beneficial algae start growing back, which it it's amazing. So like I go up there now, and I I was just up there last November, and I'm like, man, I spent 10 years of my life in this slough where it was just brown and sludge, and now it's eel grass and and like this otter population of a hundred plus animals, and and I it it's amazing.

SPEAKER_03 43:24

And so I do cool that you're a part of that. You're a part of the reason it looks that way.

SPEAKER_00 43:28

Maybe. I I'd certainly uh but that part for me means we can change this. I I didn't anticipate in my career that I was gonna see the the positive impact. It was just the continual erosion, environmental decline, like all these things. And and and I I think we can make that difference, and we have. And and so doom and gloom, and we need to be aware, because there's some tipping points that we're gonna be a hard time coming back from, but it can be done.

SPEAKER_03 44:00

There's optimism. Yeah. Good. What's your favorite part of your job?

SPEAKER_00 44:04

I think it's gonna sound a little corny. I I I mean at this point it it really is watching the the team like materialize. Well no, that that's the struggle too, right? Like it and certainly the the the but to to step back and and and and see how the the team is just coming together and and and and again the most recent experience watching the development of the frog gallery, because again I it was it was that team and and and and I working crazy hours, everybody was, and everybody was tired, but but we were supposed to be tired. You can't not be tired working the way we were working. But every one of them, I had to be like, go home.

SPEAKER_04 44:48

It was so reinforcing.

SPEAKER_00 44:50

Right, like no no, you you need to and and that it's been a while since I've experienced that. That's it. And um and that was cool. And so and and to know so I I mean in the end, the animals are cool, and I and I have done some things that no one ever else is gonna get to do and and with animals, which is awesome. But it man, it's a team of people in the end.

SPEAKER_03 45:13

You inspired me to say something. Reinforcing. I think it's really funny that you use that word because it's something that you're doing in your training. It's how we reinforce our animals. Exactly. And I think it's cool that there's something here that is reinforcing your optimism, your love to work, your love for your role.

SPEAKER_04 45:29

It's funny how much animal training is the same as people training. You know, like I think people think that they are very different and very separate from the animals that we work with, and the training things are the same. Um, my favorite animal training thing that is somewhat controversial, but is a thing, is an LRS, which is a least reinforcing stimulus or scenario, depending who you ask, where it's effectively just three to five seconds of a neutral response. And I have often found myself using that on people if they are doing something that is maybe like, I don't necessarily agree with that. If you stare at someone for five seconds after they do something sort of undesirable, they often will be like, you know what I mean.

SPEAKER_03 46:11

So animal animal care is is leaking into your life and the human care, the psychology, the psychology. Very interesting parallels to real life and aquarium life, which I guess is real life for you guys, too.

SPEAKER_04 46:23

There's a handful of people who've transitioned from animal care to child care and working with kids because effectively those are very similar, no not offensive to children.

SPEAKER_00 46:31

Marine mammal behavioral management originated with child psychology. It was all BF Skinner and like you know, I mean like that was all child psychology in the 50s and sixties is what led towards that. The principles that you predominantly use to shape behavior in most animals. I shouldn't say marine mammals, but it's funny how now we're applying it back. Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 46:55

Actually, it is for people again. That's really cool. Okay, we have some questions for social media. And the first one is Did you always want to pursue a a career in animal care?

unknown 47:05

No.

SPEAKER_03 47:05

No. What did you want to do? Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 47:08

I thought I was gonna be a doctor, like a human doctor. Like if you ask my family from when I was like four or five years old, that's what I said. And to the point where when I was in my, you know, junior senior year of high school, I was like looking at at college programs from that sort of pre-med lens. Um and I realized my first year in or not year, my first quarter in college, that all went out the window. That was not going to be, but but I mean, uh yeah, no, I never thought this is what I was gonna do.

SPEAKER_03 47:40

But there's always been some sort of care that you've been interested in, which I think is fascinating to be.

SPEAKER_00 47:44

Yeah, I hadn't I hadn't thought about it from that perspective, but very interesting.

SPEAKER_03 47:48

Um what's the most interesting animal you've worked with so far?

SPEAKER_04 47:54

What's the rarest animal that you've worked with? Let's start there and then work our way back.

SPEAKER_00 48:00

I guess I mean from a marine mammal perspective, probably a Guadalupe fur seal from a listing status standpoint. No, that's not true. Uh cook inlet beluogas. There's only there's only three hundred of those.

SPEAKER_04 48:13

Cook inlet beluogas. Why so for those beluga is that's a distinct population segment.

SPEAKER_00 48:20

And so for that population population that are critically endangered. So I guess that would I mean all in your definition of rare, right? Like there were only 300 of them, and I worked with one.

SPEAKER_04 48:33

We've had someone who previously volunteered here go on to intern at the Alaska Sea Life Center and then send us pictures of Brett that were just like weirdly posted around the aquarium. You're famous. Uh or the Alaska Sea Life Center that were like on the wall and it was like a protocol or something, and then it was like a picture of him in waiters like feeding a walrus. It's just like, what is that?

SPEAKER_00 48:55

Yeah, no, I mean that part's been I again I've been super lucky, like maybe not lucky, uh fortunate that's a better word, in that I've gotten to work with most of the species, both in sort of our collection environment and both out in the field, um, which is just amazing. Um and so I I mean I I highly value those experiences and but you know, individual animals. Uh certainly there are some that that resonate, and I don't know whether that fades over time or whether you it hurts a little when you lose them, so maybe you don't invest quite the same way when you I I I'm trying to figure that out. We just participated in a meeting today that was sort of quality of life and end-of-life processes with animal welfare, and it makes you think, and it's like, hey, name your animals. And I recognize that my animals are some of the ones that earlier in my career, and I know I'm equally invested in the ones that are present in my life right now. But I I wonder whether you develop that little like, oh, I'm never gonna let that get attached quite the same way.

SPEAKER_04 49:55

I mean, I I certainly think so. I it was weird seeing animals that I was attached to from when I started here not appear on that screen because the people who worked with them have all either gone on to do something else, and the animal that I think has impacted me the most in my career is the sea otter that has unfortunately passed away. It is weird how much I still think about that singular animal that I worked with and how much I can think that individual changed the entire trajectory of my life. And I don't know that maybe that just doesn't happen later in your career when you are more involved or more invested, but I can specifically name several things that I probably would not have ever done if not for the existence of that creature, which is cool, but also just such a weird, weird thought process. And she has never probably thought of me like and that is the other hard part about loving animals, is they don't love you bad. Yeah, they they know you they know of you.

SPEAKER_00 50:46

They might like you a lot.

SPEAKER_03 50:48

It's not well that must be, I mean, you guys are so passionate. So there there is a element of having a deep passion, and maybe it does come from a singular animal or even as a kid, a pet that just made you attach yourself to you know the idea of animal care in general.

SPEAKER_04 51:04

And I think that's what the aquarium hopes to achieve too, is to allow people that opportunity and that intersection, yeah. Because I could tell you that I probably cared a little less about California sea lions until I saw them and I was like, that's really cool. Like I want to be around that and I want to do something. And then we sneak in the frogs. And then we're like, hey, love this also while you're at it.

SPEAKER_03 51:26

And it works. It does it truly does work.

SPEAKER_00 51:28

And I and I think that's your mention of the frog. That's the part that's interesting in my own head, is that I I can't pick one. Like I I I mean, over the span of the career, like it's I am blown away by my enthusiasm by the Mountain Yo-legged frog project. I mean, I mean, and again, I think some of it I can go, hey, those they're they're technically from the mountains that I grew up in as a kid, and you know, like so I have my own little connection point right there. But I I am equally passionate about that project than I was about a marine mammal project that I had worked on. And I'm I'm happy that I can rekindle that passion and and still feel it. I'm on 30 years, which is I don't know how.

SPEAKER_03 52:12

Like that part I also think the passion is contagious though, because learning from Erin about these animals and seeing how passionate she is, and then seeing that passion literally spread through the team and seeing how and like now you guys walk past the exhibit and you're like, look at their being so cute. And like, you know, to the untrained eye, you're like, that's a frog. That's a frog, no, that's a frog. But now I'm like, oh, they are so cute. You know, it is contagious, so come to the aquarium. They're all doing stuff.

SPEAKER_04 52:38

That's the coolest part. Like I'm not to be defensive over the frog, but that you walk by and they are doing things.

SPEAKER_00 52:43

I'll tell you what, people need to see is the wrestling matches with the smoky jungle frogs.

SPEAKER_04 52:48

Yeah, that was pretty cool to see. We had a night event the other day where our smoky jungle frogs are all males. They are fine. They are not hurting each other, but they can be a little bit territorial, and part of the way that they express that is that they will wrestle. Wrestle.

SPEAKER_00 53:01

And it look, I mean, it's pretty cool.

unknown 53:04

It's pretty cool.

SPEAKER_04 53:09

But they I mean, people are watching it and they're like, oh my gosh. And they, you know, they can see that they come away totally fine. One is the winner and sits on the high rock and the other one is down low. But like, it's just cool to watch this like little community of animals doing whatever it is that they would be doing. And would be doing in uh in a while. What's the most challenging animal that you've worked with and why?

SPEAKER_00 53:31

I I think that in general birds can be more challenging. Like, because I don't think they they don't show They're complicated. They're complicated and and they hide it really well. And then by the time you see it, you're like, oh, like it, you know, it it and whereas I think that a lot of other terrestrial species it's like they're not they're not hard. You know, and it's so I think it depends the challenge, you know.

SPEAKER_04 53:55

Like can you have pets at home if you care professionally for animals all day? How does it impact your ability to be a pet owner or how you interact with your pets?

SPEAKER_00 54:04

I I think that the the challenge for me, I I in my adult life have not been like the primary owner or primary um on most um most of the the pets that I've lived with and around and and some of it was um I I believed that I couldn't provide for them in the manner in which, you know, like I I I really respect people that that are pet owners that leave work at an appropriate time so they actually go and and you know and I have a tremendous amount of respect um for that. And I wasn't I was always so like oh work must be done that I I didn't ever like become the primary person because I was concerned that I couldn't provide for them in the manner in which I believe they should provide for. And so I mean I so right now I do not have pets at home. Um I but I back to the reinforcement talk, I was heavily reinforced for not having pets um in particular when I lived in Alaska because part of our response network, we were uh the only rehabilitation facility for marine mammals in Alaska. And so any marine mammal that stranded that the federal government had interest in either sampling or helping to try to recover. You had to respond to that we could respond to. And when when 90% of your team either was in a relationship and had children to take care of or had a dog, they'd be like, Brett, can you get on a plane? I'm like, go bags in the car, let's go. You know, like so I I mean I think there's a little but then you learn that you you invest in other ways, you become a really good dog sitter, you know?

SPEAKER_04 55:44

I do think that like even for me, I have a dog and he is a very good dog, but the things that I prioritize with my dog are so different than what I think I used to. And when I was a kid, I remember when I had a dog, I was like, I'm gonna teach him every trick. And so my dogs knew a ton of different behaviors. They could sit, they could bark, they could do a spin. And now my dog basically does nothing. But the trade-off was that I had trained him to just be okay with everything, and so I can open his mouth all the way, stick my hand down his throat if he swallowed something weird, I can trim his nails, and I can do the stuff that kind of matters to take care of him. And so I think it changed my perspective on sort of like how to prioritize taking care of an animal and desensitizing them to different things rather than just thinking that a trained animal was one that knew a lot of different behaviors. It definitely has changed my perspective on pet ownership in the same way. And I have frogs at home, but I have four tiny dart frogs in an enclosure that is I could fit inside. So I I do think it changes how you look at things and how you want to give your animals everything that you would be able to give them at a well-resourced facility like we have. You're like, okay, how do I replicate this in my house? However big my apartment is.

SPEAKER_00 56:51

I was recently I I had a small stint of time, maybe not that small, that that I sort of a reptile enthusiast also when I was younger. And some anti-monitors, I I am like, monitor lizards are this thing for me. And I considered, saw one on an adoption page. Someone was, and and whereas 15 years ago, I would have taken it a second, and then I'm like, I need to look up what this animal needs. And I'm like, this animal needs 130 degrees on in this spot. It needs this environmental parameter here. I go, it says the minimum spests are a four by eight, blank, blank, blank. I'm like, I am not putting a four by eight. Yeah, I can't own the I have to convert the whole second room into a Savannah monitor home. So I do in that particular guard, I I I think I'm more guarded in that I I believe that I have an understanding of what is needed, and I recognize that my lifestyle and schedule probably can't do that. It's fed in particular in a single like you're the primary person as opposed to a partnership or a family that has you can spread that out into that kind of stuff.

SPEAKER_03 58:04

Or desires to want the pet in the beginning. So you can have pets if you want, but you don't.

SPEAKER_04 58:10

But once you've seen how I think it it looks, sometimes you don't want to come home with that.

SPEAKER_00 58:19

And I'm not implying that they are not caring for them in a meaningful and appropriate way. Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 58:25

Yeah. Our last question from social media, and probably the most difficult to answer because all of this time we sort of circled it, but we didn't really mention. What is your best advice for someone who wants to pursue a career in animal care or potentially change their career to be in animal care? It's not an easy question. But as someone who hires for careers in animal care, I feel like people would really respect the perspective.

SPEAKER_00 58:56

I I think that again, it's too different. Like for the person that has a career or is in an industry that's not animal care and is interested in getting into it, that's where I would say volunteer somewhere first. Like use a little of your spare time. So I think that my answer is a little different for those that that already have an established career. And and I I think for the person starting out or that has grown up and that always wanted to work, again, I I really do hesitate to say you must go volunteer. Because I think that again that sets up this weird precedent. This weird precedent. But but I think that it it's about being known. Like I so like I look here at the aquarium as an example, the the hand we we have this what I consider a very cool, incredible program that are volunteers that are kids while they're in high school are having an opportunity to come in and and participate in various programs. I can't tell you how many people that I brought in for an interview because I met them. Or I've interviewed people that colleagues that would come and said, Hey, I know this person has an atypical background. I'm not asking you to give them a job, but we at least like let them in the room. And and then you you're like, wow, look at this, you know, and and and we've got some really cool team members because of that. And so I I I think that finding a way to be involved in your community, I think that getting involved in any not any aspect of animal care, but working at your local SBCA, the Humane Society, uh 4-H Club, like any of these things, like I I value that. I look at that now, and I someone says they came up through 4-H or they lived in some agricultural community and had to take care of of livestock. I'm like, they know what work is.

SPEAKER_03 1:00:41

I think there's probably some people who are like, well, I don't even apply for that because I don't live anywhere close to water where I would work with marine animals up close, but there is still so much value in the experience that we get and I still have a ton to learn about the animals that we care for, that I care for, but I'm more I I again, I would rather hire someone that has no experience with the species we work with, but has a demonstrated passion or willingness to do the work.

SPEAKER_00 1:01:10

You know, again in our world here, like it becomes we found this. Like for in my opinion, for us to do our jobs appropriately, we also have to be extremely comfortable interfacing with and interacting with our guests.

SPEAKER_04 1:01:25

That's been one of the biggest probably growing points of my career is like I didn't necessarily want to work with people. I mean, I wasn't opposed to it, but I was not a good public speaker. I did not work on the side. To think but I I kind of was forced is probably too strong of a word, but like thrust into this: hey, you are now the center of attention. Everyone wants to know what do you know about sea lions and what do you know about frogs. And like half of that came from actually Madeline doing TikTok lives and TikToks where I just had to speak on the things that we knew and they became popular and they were entertaining, but they're also educational. And I I almost feel like that was a large like turning point for me where I'm like, oh, my job is actually to tell people these stories and not it is taking care of animals, but much more so the impact that I'm gonna have comes from telling stories of the animals and telling people why they're important, but also entertaining them so that they keep wanting to learn a little bit more about the animals. And so I think that's the birth of this podcast. It's everything. Everything is to tell stories and to talk to people.

SPEAKER_03 1:02:26

So And you're so great at it. I think that's clear. Thank you. That's where a lot of our success has come from from social media, is videos where you're showcasing your passion for the animals and speaking about them. All of our staff here, they they can speak on things in such an accessible way, and that's always my goal with our social media presence, is to present them in an accessible way where me, a person with no marine background or science background, can listen or watch and be entertained and want to learn more.

SPEAKER_04 1:02:52

And not feel like there's a weird barrier of I have to understand these things before I can listen to the internet.

SPEAKER_03 1:02:57

Participate in this in this world, and it's not the case. I think you do a really good job of that. Okay, thanks. Um What I want to end on is your vision for the future of animal care. Do you see where do you see it going? Where would you like it to go, whether it's specific to the aquarium in general or or just the concept of animal husbandry, animal care in the future?

SPEAKER_00 1:03:19

I feel like and I like that we're almost going back towards this blending of art and science, this holistic approach, but validate that by science. By science, you know. And that's for me, that's what feels good. Because certainly the first half of my career again, I was not the scientist, but I was was the person that had to collect the data in a very like rigorous manner, and you learned a lot. And you can talk a lot about the physiology and a lot about this, but bringing them back that and this just again creating environments that our animals thrive in and defining thriving by acting like and exhibiting behaviors that you would see in those animals in their natural environment. And I and I think that zoos and aquariums are beyond trending that way. That's that is the modern zoo and aquarium. Any zoo or aquarium that's been around for more than 20 years are gonna have areas that they're gonna focus on and work on, you know, but but it's just I I I wanna see this holistic comfort with artistic thought processes, but backed up by validated.

SPEAKER_04 1:04:40

Science and data. I think that's what welfare is really approaching, and I I think it's a really cool relative new development in animal care is looking at welfare. So we'll talk about welfare someday. That'll be a whole episode in and of itself if we want it to be. Okay. Sure. But all right. Well, thank you for learning teaching us. Teaching me how to get a job. Signal. Hired. This has been an extended job interview.

SPEAKER_03 1:05:11

Um ten years in the meantime.

SPEAKER_04 1:05:13

I do, I I think people really appreciate it, and really genuinely the question everyone wants to know is how do I do what you do? And I think it's a good summary of you can do it. Are you sure you want to?

SPEAKER_00 1:05:23

I I know we're f I and I think that like the philosophical or ethical dilemma I have now almost goes back, are you sure you want to? You know, like and I not in a mean way.

SPEAKER_03 1:05:34

I know I know as much as as much as you'd like it to, or maybe you know, would want it to, but you're you're constantly thinking about these animals because there's such a connection, there is such a love, a passion for that, um, which I think is very admirable. Um but something that you do yeah, something that you do have to consider if it is the right job for you or right career.

SPEAKER_00 1:05:55

One time I I got laid off from a position or the the grant ran out. And my job was let go. And and for about nine months, I was working on a boat as a deckhand and running the boat. Loved it. I love that kind of work anyways. But it it was the only time in my adult life, that nine months, that I had a job that when you got the boat back to shore, you plugged into shore power.

SPEAKER_04 1:06:18

That's it. It was done. Right?

SPEAKER_00 1:06:20

And I and I never experienced that before that, and I haven't experienced since. Um and that nine months, the first five, six months, man, it was lovely.

SPEAKER_04 1:06:29

Lovely.

SPEAKER_00 1:06:29

And then I had like, hmm. So I mean, for me, what reinforces me is not having something that the lights shut off, and then I don't have a. But I don't think that reinforces everybody. Nor should it. Nor should I expect everybody to have to to be reinforced by that. But the reality of it is I I don't think you can stay in this field for a long time if your expectation is that that you work seven and a half hours and you shut off a switch and yeah, that's it.

SPEAKER_03 1:06:56

You didn't care about the boat when you plugged it back in. What can I do better for the boat?

SPEAKER_00 1:07:05

Twenty some odd years ago, right? It's still very distinct in my memory of that that feeling. Like literally plug into shore power and you're like, woohoo! Free to go. You know, like and it and at first empty. And in in that four or five months afterwards, it was refreshing like to do that.

SPEAKER_03 1:07:20

But then I there's a part of you, there's a part of you the reason that you've been in this industry for so long is there's a part of you that needs that, maybe, or the part of you that enjoys that.

SPEAKER_00 1:07:29

Right. Both probably need enjoy.

SPEAKER_04 1:07:31

It's definitely it's an it's a very niche job to have for the long haul. And if you're in it, you're in it. And I think that people should pursue a career in it if it's something that they know that they want and they're passionate about. But maybe just get exposed to it.

SPEAKER_00 1:07:46

Again, to add. Or get in it, have a blast, and if you lose that, get out.

SPEAKER_03 1:07:52

Yeah. And take what you learned.

SPEAKER_00 1:07:53

Don't don't stay in. Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 1:07:55

Just that you know, like I think that's good advice for any career.

SPEAKER_04 1:07:58

Train your coworkers at your next job. Just start throwing fish at people. It works great for me at my last job. Doesn't seem like it's working here. Well, thank you again. Thank you, Brett. That was wonderful.