Goodbye Porkchop, Hello Jeff!

In this episode, Madeline and Erin sit down with Jeff Flocken, President and CEO of the Aquarium of the Pacific, for his first podcast appearance since joining the institution. Jeff shares the winding path that brought him here, from studying giraffes in Africa, to law school, to nearly two decades of global wildlife policy work, and what it felt like to trade policy campaigns for waders in the San Gabriel River.

We also hear the full story of Porkchop, the Aquarium's three-flippered green sea turtle, from her rescue and rehabilitation to her release back into the river she calls home.

In this episode:

• Jeff's path from field research and law school to the U.S. Fish and Wildlife Service, Humane Society International, and the Aquarium of the Pacific
• The campaign to list African lions as endangered under the U.S. Endangered Species Act
• The Emerging Wildlife Conservation Leaders program (EWCL), what it is, how it works, and why Jeff co-founded it 20 years ago
• Erin's connection to the program as a member of the 11th class
• Jeff's first impressions of the Aquarium and the conservation work already underway
• Porkchop's rescue from the San Gabriel River, her year of rehabilitation at the Aquarium, and her release
• What it felt like for Jeff, a career policy advocate, to release an animal into the wild for the first time
• The Aquarium's current conservation programs: white abalone, sunflower sea stars, sea otter surrogacy, coral restoration, bull kelp, zebra sharks, monarch butterflies, mountain yellow-legged frogs, and more
• Jeff's conservation dream: sea otters reclaiming their historic range from Alaska to Mexico
• The animated short film Save Ralph, and how it helped pass cosmetic animal testing bans in four countries within a year
• Jeff's wildlife hero: Dr. Jane Goodall
• Chewbacca, Jeff's golden retriever, a rescue from a dog meat farm in South Korea

Get involved:

• Southern California Sea Turtle Monitoring Program: first Saturday of each month, 8:30 to 10:30 a.m.
• Los Cerritos Wetlands monthly cleanup
• Donate to the Sea Turtle Rehabilitation Center
• NOAA's Sea Turtle Stranding Hotline: 562-506-4315
• Emerging Wildlife Conservation Leaders (aka EWCL)
• Watch "Save Ralph", Humane Society International’s global campaign to ban animal testing for cosmetics

Stay connected:

If you enjoyed this episode, make sure you are subscribed to Aquarium of the Podcific wherever you are listening, and leave us a five-star review! It goes a long way in helping new listeners find the show. ⭐️⭐️⭐️⭐️⭐️

Follow the Aquarium of the Pacific across social media (@aquariumpacific) for fun animal videos, conservation updates, and more. Follow the podcast's own Instagram (@podcific) for episode updates and behind-the-scenes content.

Thanks for listening!

Transcript

Madeline Walden: 0:06

Erin, Hi, I'm Erin Lundy, and I'm Madeline Walden, and this is Aquarium of the Podcific, a podcast brought to you by Aquarium of the Pacific, Southern California's largest aquarium.

Erin Lundy: 0:15

Join us as we learn alongside the experts in animal care, conservation and more. Welcome back to Aquarium of the Podcific. I'm Erin Lundy, manager of conservation initiatives here at the Aquarium of the Pacific, and I'm joined by my wonderful co host.

Madeline Walden: 0:30

That's me, Madeline Walden, the aquarium digital content and community manager. And who do we have on today? Erin.

Erin Lundy: 0:36

We are very excited to interview Jeffrey flocken, also known as Jeff on our podcast here today, and he's going to tell us a little bit about his experiences here at the Aquarium for his first few months, as well as his experience helping to release pork chop, the so famous viral, three Flippered sea turtle that we just released in the San Gabriel River just a couple of weeks ago. And Jeff actually got to be a huge part of that release. He was in waders, yeah, in the water. And I was gonna say chest deep in the water, but I'm pretty sure he fell all the way to his shoulders, so he is fully submerged in everything Aquarium of the Pacific,

Madeline Walden: 1:13

Truly, truly, it was such a great episode. We learned so much about Jeff's past and also his vision for the Aquarium's future. Lots of conservation

Erin Lundy: 1:20

spoiler alert in the past and in the future. Both, it's pretty exciting to have President and CEO who has dedicated so much of his career to science and conservation and animal welfare, and it is pretty exciting also to have a President and CEO who is willing to put on waders and go out into the middle of a river and help release a turtle just a couple months into his job and not even complain that he fell in that's pretty

Madeline Walden: 1:44

exciting as well. Complain it's true. It's true. Yeah, I think our audience is going to be really excited to learn more about Jeff and also learn more about pork chop. All right. Well, with that, let's get into the episode.

Erin Lundy: 1:56

We are very excited to have on our new president and CEO of the Aquarium of the Pacific,

Jeff Flocken: 2:01

Jeffrey, flogging it's great to be here. I really appreciate it, and I'm looking forward to this conversation.

Madeline Walden: 2:05

Oh, we're so excited to have you. First off, let's talk a little bit about what got you to the aquarium Pacific. We know that you've had a long journey all around animals and conservation and beyond, and so let's hear a little bit about your path to the aquarium.

Jeff Flocken: 2:17

Absolutely, I've always been an animal person since the moment I was born that I can remember from that point in my childhood, I knew I wanted to do something to help animals as part of my life. It's my passion. I was lucky enough to get a scholarship while I was in school to study wildlife management in Africa and do field research on giraffes, which was incredible experience, and I could not have more appreciation and respect for people who study animals in the wild. But what I realized was getting up every morning at 4am and just sitting and writing down what what is very similar in the wild to a cow with a really long neck, what they were eating and at what level ended up not being my gig. I really did look at what was going on there politically, and what was happening to biodiversity in Africa and or my other experiences, and realized I wanted to see if I could affect change on a higher level. So I came back, decided to get away from science, and went to law school, which was perfect, so I was able to look at things in a new way and try to think, How can I affect change for animals using policy and the scientific background I had. Eventually, I went to go work for the government doing global endangered species conservation, working on animals of particular interest to the American population. So I was able to work on elephants and Giraffes and Rhinos and lions, tigers, sea turtles, whales, all sorts of incredible animals that Americans love and want to conserve globally. And it was a great experience. I really enjoyed it, but then I said, I want to do something different. And eventually I ended up working with the Humane Society International as their president, and that opened up the scope to work on all animals. So helping animals that have been impacted by natural and man made disasters, as well as animals on farms and laboratories anywhere in animals to help, I was able to help work on campaigns to save them. All of that led to where I am today. I received a call saying that the aquarium Pacific was looking for a new CEO, and it was a great time for me. I was looking for getting a new experience and a new challenge. I didn't have as much work that in the past, I've done with marine animals, and additionally, I've never really been with a place based institution. All my work has always been international or working for a government, and I've never had that ability to connect directly with a community. So those two things appeal to me. And who can say no to California sunshine, and I was lucky enough to be offered this position and jumped on it.

Madeline Walden: 4:38

Wow. What a journey we have. One of our staff questions that I think applies right up front. Where did you get the guts to take on industries, poachers, governments, aka groups with a scary, intimidating reputations to save animals?

Jeff Flocken: 4:49

Where did that come from? Question, my wife would be the first to tell you that I often do things without thinking through the consequences, and I'll put that part of my career there too. And in particular, you're probably alluding to the fact that. I was enemy number one in taking on trophy hunting endangered species globally, which was a real passion for me at the time, when I started campaigning on that issue and trying to come up with plans on how to stop unsustainable killing for sport of endangered species. The American populace responsible for 80% of all endangered species killed globally for sport. In particular, lions were really, really under the gun, literally, so to speak. I remember when I was learning what was going on and seeing that American hunters were killing two year old male lions because there were not any robust adult males left. So many had been lost, not just through trophy hunting, but also through habitat loss, through conflict with local people. But the one that was easiest to address with trophy hunting is done for quote, unquote sport, a blood sport. So I went out there and really started figuring out how I could fix this. And I pulled together a group of different organizations to draft a scientific petition proving that trophy hunting was contributing to the decline of lions in Africa, and it was American Trophy Hunter to be more important. As a result of this, we petitioned the US government to list African lions that's in danger of the US native species act. Everyone said it's never going to happen. You can't do it. The trophy hunting lobby is just way, way too powerful. And if you look at the leading trophy hunting organizations, Fire Club International, their logo actually has a lion on it. It was something that was very much that trophy hunters wanted to be able to get that kill. And if I were successful, it would inhibit the ability to have unfettered killing of lions for sport. There would actually have to be proof that it could be done sustainably before they can do it. And up to that point that point, that wasn't the case, and I was successful. And when I say I me and entire team of individuals who are committed to making this happen and wrote that scientific petition, I will say, I'm proud to say, getting back to your original question, that I was told that at Safari Club International's annual event where they, you know, get together and talk about killing animals. I assume there was a picture of me on the wall as enemy number one, along with a host of other individuals who had really been trying to stop this unsustainable killing. So while I'm excited that I were able to accomplish something my wife pointed out, did I really have to go over a go after a group that inherently have big guns? Is that really who we want to make our enemy? But again, acted, didn't really think that through. But I'm still very proud. Hey, it's important.

Madeline Walden: 7:26

It was really important. That's incredible. That question came to us from Shauna in development. By the way, we also have co founded the emerging wildlife conservation leaders, where I've mentored 250 over 250 up and coming conservationists, and I know Erin is newly a part of that program. Yes, you want to talk a little bit what it what is it? It's how do you how do you say the the acronym equal, equal.

Jeff Flocken: 7:48

It's so natural sounding,

Madeline Walden: 7:49

isn't it? It's really fun to say, you cool, you cool. That's what it is. Tell us a little bit about that, sure.

Jeff Flocken: 7:55

Well, first of all, the acronym we love, because it could not be more awkward. However, it did work because we had certain classes focused on certain geographies or species and saving them. So when we had a group that was a cohort that was working on pangolins, it became pucal, and with rhinos, they were ruchal and so on and so on. And the Caribbean, they were cuculs. Yes, thank you. I thought good too. Has a nice sound about 20 years ago, almost exactly a colleague and I were looking at the state of wildlife conservation. And as you know, mid level or young career professionals tend to do, we're like, this is not working. We could point out all the flaws and all the things that made it really hard to stay in this career. And at the same time, we noticed that a lot of our peers we really respected were leaving to go back to school or join other careers, and instead of just sitting around and complaining about it, which we had done plenty of, we said, let's do something about it. So we pulled together a group of our most respected peers and people had been in the field, and said, Let's come up with a way to really mentor and train young professionals in this field so they feel like they belong to something bigger, and that they get that kind of training that they hadn't had an opportunity for at the time. And we found out there really was a need. We did no advertising, and yet we had hundreds of applicants for every class. For the there have been 10 classes now. Erin is part of the 11th

Madeline Walden: 9:17

class, lucky number 11.

Jeff Flocken: 9:20

The focus is very much on providing support for early to mid level conservationists in terms of training on how to be successful in campaigning and advocating on behalf of animals, as well as how to be a good leader, looking at really what kind of skills go into management and finance and those things that you're not trained on the job typically, like in any field. If you're really good at a job, you rise up. But just because you're a really good lobbyist or a really good scientist doesn't mean you're gonna be a good manager and a good leader. So trying to give those skills along with a hands on conservation campaign that everybody who goes this course has to do, and it has to be multi discipline. So pushing these young career professional. Able to get a little bit out of their comfort zone. If they're a scientist, we really want them to form a team that also is doing fundraising and marketing, if there's somebody who has no field experience, trying to find a project that can actually grant them a little bit of that. So not only does it enrich and round out their ability and their expertise and experience in our field, but it also will make them a better leader, because they'll understand where all elements of their team are coming from, and not just the one that they graduated out of themselves.

Erin Lundy: 10:26

I'm pretty excited to start, but I think I start later this fall. Something I was pretty excited about when joining the program is that it does give you an opportunity to sort of diversify your skill sets in a way that is a little bit challenging to get exposure to so many different aspects of developing as a leader and in wildlife conservation as well. I'm pretty stoked on it also. Ewcl are my exact initials, so I, I find nothing awkward about that. Well, I should

Madeline Walden: 10:53

have been calling you

Erin Lundy: 10:54

equal this time. I was very strange when I saw it written out, and I was like, That's me. It was

Madeline Walden: 11:01

meant to be, yeah. It was always meant

Erin Lundy: 11:02

to be, yeah. It was interesting. So what are some of the successes through that program that you're the most proud of? Like we I know there's quite a few projects listed on the website, and you can see what each individual class has worked on if you visit the website, what are you most proud of that's come from that program?

Jeff Flocken: 11:17

Well, I think the top thing is, how many of the 250 people have gone through it, have said that it came at a point in their career where they were really struggling with whether to stay in wildlife conservation or not. And the people go through it go through a very rigorous selection process. As I said, hundreds apply every year. We only pick between 20 and 23 typically, and to have lost them from this field of conservation that is so, so important. We're in the sixth extinction crisis, said this planet has faced we need people come from a wide variety of backgrounds and strengths and experiences in order to win this. So the fact that so many of the folks who've gone through this have said, Hey, you're the reason that I'm still in this field and that I'm now in a leadership position, that is what I'm most proud of. In addition to that, the projects have been really exciting and had some incredible results. One example is from our third class. One of the groups decided to focus on bat conservation, and what they did is they worked with different scientists to see what the biggest problem was with bats in Southeast Asia, and they ended up designing a guideline in various languages for how to harvest bat guano in a way that does not disrupt roosting bats. Bats require many species of bats require a certain amount of time to hibernate to build up the resources. When this guano extraction was happening by the local people, it would actually disrupt it, and the animals would not build up enough of a reserve and end up dying. So they designed a guideline for how to do this, and it was not only used so successful that the International Union for the Conservation of Nature, better known as IUCN, that specialist group adopted this officially as their guidelines globally on how bat guano should be harvested. So we were helping people whose livelihoods depended on how everything's going on and selling it. But at the same time, we were ensuring that the bats weren't being harmed. So that's just one example. There are so many wonderful things that these different projects have done that I'm incredibly

Madeline Walden: 13:12

proud of. That's so cool. I think you touched on really something important too. You know, I am in the marketing department here at the Aquarium, so I don't do a lot of work in conservation directly. I just talk about it because I get to talk about all the cool talk about all the cool things that Erin and our colleagues get to do here. But I think it's so important to have a community around these things. I know. You know, even things that Erin is doing often can be hard on your heart and hard on your soul sometimes, and you're seeing a lot of things that have humans have caused, and I think it's great that there is a community to support

Erin Lundy: 13:41

that that's true.

Madeline Walden: 13:43

That's true. And I even see that when I attending, like the ACA conferences too. I just think it's such a valuable resource.

Erin Lundy: 13:49

Yeah, I have a really hard time sometimes that people envision the future of conservation as being leave nature totally alone. And I think that finding ways to balance our use of natural resources with preserving what we can is so critical for conservation, because people are still part of the earth and will continue to live here. And so finding ways to ensure that people can still, you know, have the things that they need to have, but just like the backwater example, still making as minimal impact on the wildlife as possible is pretty important.

Madeline Walden: 14:20

You have an amazing past. What made the aquarium the right next

Jeff Flocken: 14:24

chapter for you a challenge. I love taking on a challenge. And unfortunately, I got here and realized, holy cow, they're doing a great job. So that whole idea, yeah, no. Dysfunctionality, doing incredible conservation work, doing great education work, working out with communities in a way that's just really so impressive. The team is incredibly professional. They are committed and work so hard to help not only the animals in our care, but find ways to help animals outside of the aquarium. So I'm not getting that, you know, thrill of a huge challenge, but at the same time, I'm getting the opportunity to really look for how. I add value. How can I bring to this new job lessons that I've learned and experiences to hopefully even take it into a new place and a new level of conservation education and working with the community? So I'm really excited about that, but you're right. I'm not going to get that challenge fixed that I was hoping for.

Unknown: 15:18

Sounds like we need to be difficult?

Jeff Flocken: 15:19

Yeah, if you could be just a little bit ornery. Maybe throw stuff at me every morning when I come in. That'd be great.

Erin Lundy: 15:24

Sure. Sounds good to me. Can probably arrange

Madeline Walden: 15:26

probably, I think there's some otters that could probably

Erin Lundy: 15:29

learn how to toss some stuff. Millie knows how to throw.

Madeline Walden: 15:31

Oh, Millie will throw down. Glad you were suggesting people should throw some otters at me, because that would not be animal welfare. No, no, no, exactly where we want the otters to throw things at you. Yeah? No, please.

Erin Lundy: 15:40

Animal welfare, choice and control to throw what they

Madeline Walden: 15:45

would like at you. They're choosing to participate, which is a big part of you give them

Jeff Flocken: 15:48

really complex things to throw at me. It also helped

Madeline Walden: 15:51

build enrichment. So exactly, exactly supported. We'll do it just something different, in weight every single day. Okay, you kind of talked about first impressions so far. How has it been just being at the aquarium and walking around here, every time I

Jeff Flocken: 16:02

walk through, I learn something new and see something new. It's hilarious. I've been coming through and been lucky enough to be able to show some donors and some VIPs who are visiting it. And we'll go along with somebody who's much more knowledgeable than I am, who's been here longer. And the guide will say, Oh, and check this out. I'm like, we have large keys. Everyone turns on looks at me and say, Well, yes, we have almost 100 I'm like, Oh, who knew? So I'm getting a lot of those moments where I'm like, I have not been to this corner of the aquarium. I didn't know we do this. I've been very in touch with our conservation efforts, because that's one of the things that really appealed to me and drew me to here. But I did not know as much about so many other things that the aquarium is doing,

Madeline Walden: 16:42

I feel the same. I'm 10 years in. I feel like sometimes I walk around and I discover, Oh, when did this get here? Or we do this, we do this aspect in the care, or I'm always learning something walking around, and thanks to Erin, I get a little bit

Erin Lundy: 16:53

of insider access. So mostly frogs these days.

Madeline Walden: 16:55

Yeah, I learned a lot about frogs. I did not know anything. And similar to you, you did not know much about frogs before you started working with them directly.

Erin Lundy: 17:01

That is also true. We're all

Madeline Walden: 17:03

learning all the time here at the Aquarium. Do you have a memory from your past childhood growing up whenever of a favorite zoo or aquarium experience?

Jeff Flocken: 17:11

San Diego Zoo, it was very formative for me there when I was very young, and I don't even remember if my mom, it took me, or my dad, if my siblings were there, all I remember is just falling in love with all the animals everywhere. So, you know, since then, I've been able to see many other zoos and aquariums, and I've become much more discerning and be able to think about, what are the animal welfare implications, what are the conservation benefits or drawbacks for coming from having these animals in captivity? And the San Diego Zoo still remains a inspiration for how to do a zoo in the right way and also contribute to the conservation of animals that are being represented on

Erin Lundy: 17:49

the exhibit. We do have some continuing education resources that we use from the San Diego Zoo for our welfare program, and it is an expectation that all of our husbandry staff do watch about an hour to two hours of welfare and then do additional continuing education year after year. And I think that San Diego Zoo has done a phenomenal job at modeling what good animal welfare should look like. So in fact, what

Madeline Walden: 18:10

is Did you know The first video uploaded to YouTube is a video of someone visiting the San

Erin Lundy: 18:16

Diego Zoo. It's a very, very first video tying a social media. It's like,

Jeff Flocken: 18:20

it's my job or something. And I'll say, if I do my job right over the next five to 10 years, that the aquarium the Pacific will become synonymous with wonderful animal welfare and conservation of the animals in the wild and protection of the environment. We're already doing much of this, and I want people to know that and be able to be so proud when they're members and supporters of the great work we're doing. And also, let's look at opportunities to do more. You know, you can never do enough amazing work to help animals. So I hope that whenever down the road, if you guys boot me out and fire me, at least, I'll say, you know, this guy's legacy as CEO was that he really let people know about the great work we're doing for conservation education in the community and also help to grow those programs.

Madeline Walden: 19:04

Let's have to see how this podcast recording goes. I might

Jeff Flocken: 19:07

be out the door in the morning. I'll be scored out by security as I walk out of the studio here. Thank you so silly throwing things at you. Yeah, with otters like

Madeline Walden: 19:15

she is security. She is security, exactly.

Erin Lundy: 19:17

Well, what a perfect segue into our question what conservation work is AOP, the Aquarium of the Pacific, currently doing that makes you proud to work here.

Jeff Flocken: 19:25

That's a great question. I think there is two ways I might approach this. I consider really good rescue and rehabilitation work part of the conservation portfolio that we do here. And then we also have more really traditional conservation efforts. So first I'm going to talk about those and then I'll talk a little bit about our rescue and rehabilitation work. So with the more traditional conservation efforts, which typically take collaborations with many different individuals and groups within the community and the region where the animals are, the Aquarium of the Pacific is really engaged on a number of those efforts, working closely with government entities that. Help to determine how the best way and what you know, regulatorily allowed for helping danger threatened species and working with other aquariums and zoos and universities. The ones that come to mind right away are work on the white abalone, which I just think is so incredible. Before I came here, you could have asked me what an abalone was, and I would have sworn it was some kind of meat for a sandwich, which is strange because I'm a vegetarian having a meat 35 years but I would never be able to tell you that it was a, in fact, an invertebrate that is interesting and actually a little bit gorgeous when you see it moving and the waves and ripples of its body underneath the shell that it lives under, it is just really incredible. So learning about what we're doing there to breed this species, which used to be common in this part of the Pacific and is now rare. It was overfished, and we've been able to do breeding of this and actual reintroductions, again, working with partners, but the zoo being a leader in this space. Additionally, we're doing great programs to help the sunflower sea star. I grew up calling them starfish, but now they are called sea stars, and with this particular type of sea star, it's been impacted horrifically by sea star wasting disease. And what's happened is you can't find it in abundancy anywhere up and down the Pacific Coast that I know of anymore, but the aquarium, working with partners, is in fact, breeding them here in captivity and hoping for the time when we can release them back in the wild without threat of dying to this wasting disease. So the research that we're doing in the aquaculture to help propagate this species. So we're when we're when it's the right time that we can safely introduce them back into the Pacific ecosystem. We'll be there, and we'll be a leader in this. Well, I

Madeline Walden: 21:39

know we kind of threw you in feet first, literally, within your first couple of weeks here on the job, and you got to hang out with a very special turtle named pork chop. Erin, will you tell us a little bit about Miss pork chop? Yeah, Mr. Pork Chop, we don't really know. We don't really

Erin Lundy: 21:50

know just pork chop. We suspect that she is likely female, but she's actually a little bit too young to easily tell, which is interesting. So pork chop was a sea turtle that was rescued from the San Gabriel River about a year ago. Unfortunately, porkchop was entangled in some fishing line and some other marine debris, I guess, river debris, some trash that unfortunately had ended up where porkchop was and she was functionally tied down to the same spot in the river. It was very unfortunate. But thankfully, we do have a lot of people and citizens who are concerned about the turtles, and they did call and say, Hey, we think that there's a turtle entangled. And so I actually got to be a part of the team that went out and grabbed pork chop. I was very grateful that everyone else was busy that day, but we were able to climb down to the part of the river where she was and pull her out. And the ball of trash was about the same weight as the turtle, and so when we pulled her out, she was this huge, extremely heavy thing, and she was so entangled that the fishing line had actually cut off a lot of blood flow to her flipper. And she ended up losing that flipper. It probably wasn't gonna make it regardless, but she did lose it, and then it was cleanly amputated, fully when she arrived here at the Aquarium, that was pretty disheartening to see. I'm not gonna lie, it wasn't my favorite thing to be a part of, except for the fact that we were able to pull her out and otherwise she was healthy, but she was tired and she was in not the best condition, and I watched over the course of a year as our veterinary team and our specifically our quarantine aquarist but our aquarist team worked with her to rehabilitate her, to get her to a spot where she could be functional and swimming and healed enough that she could go back out. It was pretty cool to be a part of pork chop story from sort of start to finish. And it kind of gave me goosebumps, Turtle bumps, whatever you would call them, to see an animal that I had helped retrieve from the river in such poor condition, go back out and just immediately swim off. It's so fast. And that was the first time I'd ever really seen a sea turtle be released. And that is a project we do a lot here at the Aquarium, and it's pretty magical to be a part of it. How amazing to

Madeline Walden: 23:55

see it full circle. Take me back to that day on the river. Can you tell me, Jeff, a little bit how your day went that day, alongside Erin, I was

Jeff Flocken: 24:02

so privileged to be part of this. I've done wildlife rescues and releases in the past. During the Australian bushfires, I was part of a team that went out and helped saved koalas almost 200 from the fires, and was actually able to be there when we let one of them go back out and go back into the wild. And additionally, I worked on helping animals that were exploited in rescues, wolves, foxes, skunks, a wide variety, as well as companion animals, dogs on dog meat farms in Asia. So I was familiar with rescues, but I've never released a sea turtle. So I was very excited, a little nervous. I've only been on the job for three months, and part of this, bringing the sea turtle out to the part of the river where we were releasing pork chop entailed walking over these tall, jagged rocks that led to the actual water. So it was Erin myself and two other individuals, each on a corner of a sling. And you can't see this, but I'm six foot four. Get. Angry and awkward as all get out. So trying to hold my corner of the sling or the hammock that the sea turtle was on, and also jump forward from rock to rock, while not pulling over the three incredibly great colleagues who are holding the other corners, I just knew I'd be the first one to go face down, bring the turtle, Erin and our other two colleagues down into these rocks with me. So thankfully, I was not the first one. It will fall. Someone else falls. So fell. So I was able to point at her and laugh and say, Look, someone else falls, is not a big deal. So but did not take a header like I thought I would, although I will say, you know, we got one and one at a time, got off the rocks and jumped in the water so we could accept the hammock with pork chop into the water. I was the first one to take one step to the left and immediately sink up to my head, so everyone else looked very comfortable up to their waist, and I went, sunk right down. Luckily, I was not in charge of pork chop at that moment, hadn't even hands on her. And then when we let her go, it was the four of us, and we each had a corner, and I was in the front right hand corner, actually, where her flipper had been amputated, and I could see that it healed perfectly. You would not even known that there had been such serious damage and such a serious injury. So that made me feel really good, as we were letting her go to know that she had fully healed. And Erin's right, she just immediately touched the water, started flapping her three remaining flippers, and when we loosened up the sides of the hammock, she swam right out. She disappeared for about a minute, and then we saw her pop up and she settled right next to another sea turtle that was there grazing, which was such a beautiful moment, and the turtle didn't run away, didn't flee off the direction when he saw a pork chop with the three flippers. Actually, I know a lot of people reached out to me later that week, because this release got a lot of attention and asked like, Oh no, how will this turtle possibly survive with just three flippers? And the wonderful thing is that there's many recorded instances of sea turtles at all stages of their life with only three flippers thriving and doing great in the wild. So we knew, as long as she could feed and eat and be able to have, you know, a safe place to browse her food, that she would be fine. So there was no concern on that. However, you you know, as somebody who puts so much time and effort and really come to bond with this animal, you want to make sure that they are going to do okay. So seeing her immediately go to another sea turtle and just hang out there felt great. Even more exciting. Just two days later, we got a picture of pork chop in the river doing wonderful, clearly identifiable, and doing great.

Madeline Walden: 27:43

That's amazing. So you've spent decades fighting for animals at a policy level, and then you're standing there in the river watching a sea turtle swim away. Is that a different feeling? Is that the same feeling? How did it feel?

Jeff Flocken: 27:55

Felt great. I knew that there were no trip. You had to the guns pointed at me. You know, this was pretty much it's a feel good story for everyone. Lots of cameras, lots of cameras. So again, feeling awkward, worrying that I was gonna fall you guys did so great. But, yeah, it felt wonderful. It was such a great feeling. And so instant gratification, rewarding, which is rare in our field, usually. And Erin, I think you'd agree, a real conservation initiative is like a decade long effort, and even then, you don't know if you were truly successful with policies. I've written bills to protect species that have been debated and stalled on the floor or moved forward and, you know, federal government, and again, it's a decades, decades long process. This was seeing an animal that had been in our care for almost 12 months came in. We weren't sure that she was going to survive, but did well, recovered, thriving and being able to put her back out into the wild to join the other animals in that river. And there is a healthy population there in the San Gabriel River of green sea turtles, some of whom are year round residents, and have her go back and join them. It's hard to describe how wonderful

Madeline Walden: 29:07

it felt. I bet, I bet we were talking a little bit earlier about the survivability of sea turtles with three flippers, and I think, a point that I hadn't realized of how important is to get these animals back in the wild, because she can contribute to the population. And you know, Noah deemed her healthy enough to be released as well. But I just think it's such a cool, full circle story, like just because she has three flippers doesn't mean that she's not going to be a very important part or ambassador of her species.

Jeff Flocken: 29:31

And Green Scene, turtles were recently down listed and no longer considered a threat in species by the International Union of the Conservation of Nature, which has a red list that monitors all species and their imperilment status, but they still are protected here in Earth water. They listed under native species act. So it was a conservation success as well as an animal welfare success for that individual animal. So we can all feel good at the aquarium about doing both those things, helping an individual animal, but also helping a species. That could use a little bit of assistance.

Erin Lundy: 30:02

I think something that people are often surprised by is that we tell them that there are turtles, sea turtles, in the San Gabriel River, and that water is brackish water, and so sea turtles are swimming up there and kind of warming up in the waterways. And that kind of watershed area is connected to the Los Cerritos wetlands as well. We do a lot of sea turtle monitoring through the Aquarium of the Pacific, and that is part that is part of the reason why we get so many updates on fork chop and how she's doing, and we were able to see her again. But we also do work with the Los Cerritos wetlands, and they do weekly, monthly a monthly cleanup. Well, we

Madeline Walden: 30:33

we participate in a monthly cleanup with alongside the Los Cerritos wetlands. So if anyone is interested in participating either our sea turtle monitoring or our wetlands conservation efforts that you can visit our website. I will also link them in the show notes.

Jeff Flocken: 30:44

And Erin, am I wrong in saying that it was actually the aquarium volunteer to do sea turtle and monitoring who first spotted pork chop in distress in the river?

Erin Lundy: 30:52

You are not incorrect. It was definitely a part of that group, which is even cooler, that we have such a robust network that they can identify when there's an issue, and they're so familiar with the animals that they also can tell what's unusual behavior, which can be challenging sometimes if you're unfamiliar with what normal animal behavior is. So that program, I think our sea turtle monitoring program, has been going for 12 years now, and we have some volunteers who have been with that program for 12 years, and they are extremely familiar with the individuals in the river as well as what behavior they should expect out of these animals. So we're pretty fortunate and

Jeff Flocken: 31:24

Madeline, you mentioned, you know, is it ever too overwhelming to work in conservation when there are so many issues and they're so much of a decline in species? I'll just say, you know, putting this one individual animal back out in the water may not make the difference for turning the tide on green sea turtle populations, but it made all the difference to that one individual animal. So that nexus where conservation animal welfare meet is really at the heart of what's happening here at this aquarium, and with all the employees here who care so much about the animals in our care, as well as those in the wild that they represent, and being able to be part of that community and join that group with that same passion and that same mission in life has just been an incredible honor.

Madeline Walden: 32:10

Workshop. Story. It went viral in several places. You know, it spread really, really quickly. I think she was such a great ambassador to her species, but also she did a really great job of looking gorgeous on site in our new sea turtle rehab and Rehabilitation Center, which opened alongside porkchop. Porkchop was the first turtle that we were able to place in there, and so that is near our Molina Animal Care Center if you're visiting the aquarium. It is really cool because it serves as a place to house rescued sea turtles. There's not currently one in there right now, but it also serves as an educational place for our guests, and hopefully inspires people to take better care or make better choices, just in their day to day that would directly affect the sea turtles in all animals all over the world.

Erin Lundy: 32:46

Do it for pork chop. You can

Madeline Walden: 32:49

do it, and it

Jeff Flocken: 32:50

actually doubles our ability to care for sea turtles that have been injured or brought in. Prior to this, we were really limited to doing one or two at a time, and now we can do up to four, and who knows how many we'll be able to do in the future, if we continue to grow our conservation and rescue programs.

Madeline Walden: 33:04

Yeah, it's incredible. Okay, continuing to talk about conservation a little bit more. Aquarium participates in several conservation efforts. Erin, would you like to share what conservation efforts we participate in?

Erin Lundy: 33:14

There so many have a you have a lot of them. Yeah. So we do. We have a list, however, between things like mountain yellow legged frogs and tadpoles, which I'm very partial to, and abalone and bull kelp and zebra sharks and sunflower sea stars and monarch butterflies and sea otter surrogacy and coral restoration. We are doing a lot of work here at the Aquarium, and we do also respond to wildlife emergencies and disaster response, and we've been fortunate enough to house animals that have been displaced in those emergencies, as well as directly go into the field and respond to those things. I've been very excited that sort of conservation is expanding as a job you can have. And I know that sounds strange, but when I was a kid, my mom wanted me to be a doctor, which was never going to happen, because similarly, I was just taking in every stray cat that I could possibly find off the street. At one point, we had 11 cats, that is too many cats. And my mom will agree with that statement, but it has been very difficult to, I think, find a role or a direction or a place where I feel that I can make a meaningful contribution to conservation. I think the Yuko program, which I'm now learning, is the acronym, so I'm getting serious, still is a really great example of a need that I think is largely felt across the industry, of people wanting to make a difference, but not really being sure how to broaden and diversify. But even me, having the job that I have here at the Aquarium is so indicative that conservation is a priority for the aquarium, and it's a priority also across ACA institutions and a growing priority in our country, which I love to see, I would love to know, since you are so conservation based and are now the president, what is a conservation of the aquarium? We must specify each and every time. But what is something a conservation project or conservation achievement that you hope that. The aquarium will be known for in 20 years. Oh, that's a

Jeff Flocken: 35:03

tough one. I don't want to limit it. I want people to come here and feel so good about buying their admission ticket or purchasing a gift in our gift shop, because that will go to the conservation of multiple species. But if I had to zoom in a little bit about our sea otter surrogacy program, it's really exciting, because what happens is we have female sea otters who are residents of the aquarium, and when orphaned sea otters are found stranded in Northern California. They're not part of this ecosystem anymore. They've been wiped out or extirpated in this region, we partner with the Monterey Aquarium to take these animals in, and our resident sea otters actually help to rear these orphaned sea otters until they are grown enough that they can safely put back on the wild. If I would say one thing, that would be just an amazing thing to happen, and it's a bit of a pipe dream, I would love to see the northern sea otter population reclaim its lost habitat and have a contiguous population from Alaska all the way down to Mexico. It would take a lot of effort by many, many stakeholders, government, NGO, private, all working together to bring them back. But wouldn't that be amazing to be able to look out into Long Beach's harbor and see sea otters playing again. So that would be my conservation dream.

Madeline Walden: 36:25

That'd be incredible. What about you? Erin, what's your conservation dream? You stole my answer.

Erin Lundy: 36:30

Thank you, Jeff. I mean, I would love if mountaineal legged frogs were also no longer considered endangered. They may be a species that is genetically bottlenecked enough that that is a significant enough challenge. I don't know that they're going to recover from it, but I will hold out hope. But I do think that sea otter conservation is going to be a major, hopefully a major turning point in sort of California's coastal ecosystems. Sea otters, as we talk about often on this podcast, are keystone species that have a major impact on the kelp forest ecosystems around them. And while there would be some growing pains of introducing sea otters to areas where they do not currently live and have been extirpated from including they do eat a lot of marine invertebrates, some of which we fish for as well, I do think that the overall impact of reintroducing sea otters, or having sea otters come back to their full range would be huge, not just for us, but also for the kelp forests, and that would also help with global warming and some CO two emissions as well. That kelp forests are a huge carbon sink, so there are a lot of benefits. And I have always joked that if we save sea otters, we will save the world. And it's only like half of a joke, all

Madeline Walden: 37:36

connected, yeah. Speaking of just conservation across the ACA community, you kind of touched on it a little bit. But what role do you think aquarium should play in conservation, and do you think we're on our way to fulfilling that role?

Jeff Flocken: 37:47

I think that's a great question. Aquariums absolutely have to be part of the solution to what's happening to our planet. I believe all zoos and aquariums that survive in the future will need to be able to show that there is a reason that they have these animals, because they represent what's happening in the wild, and getting people to fall in love with these animals is going to be our responsibility, but also it's on the shoulders of those animals in captivity, and we have to be able to say that we've earned that right to have these animals be ambassadors, and that means being part of the solution, making sure that we are out there promoting ways to keep the planet clean, to keep the environment healthy, and to help these species survive in the wild. So aquariums, like zoos, need to be part of the solution. That is, how we ensure that we are in the right place in this big ecosystem of people who both work alongside animals, but also are trying to find ways to

Erin Lundy: 38:40

conserve them in the wild. I think aquariums also have this amazing advantage of drawing such a large public audience that we get to educate so many people. And it makes a huge difference just having a conversation with a guest on the floor, you know, just a family, and just spending five extra minutes to say, hey, sea otter is really important. Did you know they eat $3,000 worth of seafood every month, because they also do that in the wild, but those would be urchins, instead of us paying $3,000 a month. And I think conversations like that and facts like that are what sticks with people and helps them to remember to be better stewards of our ocean and of our world.

Jeff Flocken: 39:15

I will say I was very lucky to be part of a study where we interviewed a group of international leaders in conservation, this being some of the top names in our field. Dr Jane Goodall participated, Dr Sylvia Erin, Dr Russ Mittermeier, all these icons in conservation. And one of the questions we asked these almost 40 different leaders in saving wildlife was, how did you first come about this career? How did you first come about this love of animals, and over half them said it was by visiting their local zoo or aquarium as a child. So that is a awesome responsibility on us. We need to make that visit turn out the future Jane Goodall's the future Sylvia earls and all the other people. People in the world who might not without our exposure, not go into that career that would end up actually being the missing piece to help save a species or to save an ecosystem. So as an aquarium, I'm hoping that we will fulfill that role and turn out some of these great leaders in the future.

Erin Lundy: 40:19

Did you know that one of our California mores is named Sylvia eel?

Jeff Flocken: 40:24

That's awesome. Sylvia's lovely. I actually saw her a couple weeks ago.

Erin Lundy: 40:28

Tell her we named an eel.

Jeff Flocken: 40:30

She'll be very impressed. This never happened

Erin Lundy: 40:32

before, and aquarist Heidi will be able to tell you which eel it is. Also she can point around so and we talked about that in our eels episode. I was like, I know that name. I know that eel that is awesome. I guess something that goes towards us having access and having the responsibility of educating people. How do you make topics that are maybe uncomfortable for people to hear about or learn about, digestible for a broader audience? And I know people come to the aquarium to have fun, and the last thing we really want to do is for them to come away feeling overwhelmed by the burden of responsibility. But it is so easy to go that direction sometimes when we're talking about major conservation issues or animal welfare issues. So what do you find works for you in your toolkit for being able to discuss these things with a broader audience and not turning them off to hearing that conversation.

Jeff Flocken: 41:25

I think humor goes a long way creativity. But I'll also say that it's really important if you're you're reaching the audience that needs to be talked to. I'll say, you know, I've worked with many different groups that are very proud because, you know, we have a tiger on display at our zoo, therefore, we're contributing the conservation of the species. I'm going to be cynical and say that almost every zoo in the country has a tiger, and yet, in the wild, they've been declining for decades and decades, they've stabled out. But in fact, how can you actually make a correlation between that tiger being in the zoo and any benefit to tigers in the wild? Just general education sometimes is not enough. So really working to tailor the messages to the audiences that need to hear it, tailing that message to people who can do something about it. The nice thing about the sea turtle work that we were doing in the recovery of pork chop is there are things that people can do to actually help sea turtles right here in California. They can dispose of their trash properly. They can never dispose of fishing wire and hooks and things that become a magnet to animals in the marine ecosystem to digest and could possibly be fatal for them. They can join beach cleanups and river cleanups. They can join monitoring networks and be part of community science initiatives. There's so much that they can do on that. So finding the messages that can resonate and the people can actually take ownership of and do something is really, really a good way to go forward. I was part of a small team that worked on a short animated film called Save Ralph. And the purpose of that film was to actually influence legislators to pass laws to stop sales and testing of cosmetics on animals. That was unnecessary. And we tried to figure out, you know, who was the endpoint, what really need to be done. And we did a huge analysis of how to make the world's global beauty market change over and no longer make cosmetic animals accessible, and we realized that it was really by passing laws in a small number of countries, only 17. So we started with a problem, figured out who we had to get to respond to this message, and then we made a short film that really was meant to elicit the responses we needed in those countries, and we figured out all the pressure points that would result in passing legislation to stop this testing, unnecessary testing of cosmetics on animals. And in fact, you know, because we approached it with a problem solving approach, we were successful short movie, which is only four minutes, went incredibly viral. It won 40 film festivals and got lots of critical acclaim, including winning the candleline Grand Prize. But more importantly, there were four countries that, within a year of this movie coming out, passed bans on testing and sale of products that have been tested on animals, and it was just incredible. Chile, Mexico, Canada and Brazil, and on the floor of the Congress, Mexico, when that bill passed, we've been trying to pass a bill there for, gosh, two decades, to ban this practice. They said, this is because it's a Ralph, and it only took less than 12 months for that to happen. So if you can find a way to communicate with people on a level that they can really understand, not make them feel guilty, but understand the issue and what they can do to empower them to make change, it's really possible.

Madeline Walden: 44:53

Yeah, it's a great short we'll definitely link it in the show notes as well. And I think it does a great job of there's humor in it. It also tells the tragedy that's happening to animals undergoing animal testing, but it's so well done too. So I think it's just a combination of great parts that really capture people and allow them to learn more. And I think you touched on it perfectly. It's not a shaming. It's here is the information. Here's what you can do to change it.

Jeff Flocken: 45:16

I'll say. The other thing that I found was really effective is giving examples of how people can make a difference. I noticed, you know, I heard you say that, you know, there wasn't clear how to get a career out of conservation. What's the best way to go forward? I wrote, co wrote a book with Julius cardena called wildlife heroes that focused on 40 individuals who had devoted their life to helping to save a certain species, and had all been successful, but they've been successful for very different reasons and different approaches. So it included a lawyer who had really tested some policy initiatives and became the person who wrote the petition to list polar bears as endangered under the US Endangered Species Act for the first time ever, with it being a link to climate change. And you know, it was some traditional scientists, and there were some marketers, and there were people who found really creative ways to help save species. So that idea that giving examples of how you can take what you do in your life and help an animal is really important, I think, and can hopefully inspire others.

Madeline Walden: 46:16

Wonderful that leads us into the last part of our session here. We're going to ask you some more soft and easy questions. So speaking of your book wildlife heroes, who's your wildlife hero? Dr, Jane

Jeff Flocken: 46:28

Goodall, I was so lucky to have been a friend of Jane and have known her for probably 30 years. Every now and then she would call me with a wildlife conservation or an animal welfare question, and of course, I would just fall over myself trying to give her the perfect answer, because I just thought so highly of her and how she had devoted her life become such a spokesperson, not only just for primates, but an animal advocate on all levels, and inspired so many people around The planet. So Dr Goodall passed recently, which was she had left an incredible legacy having I believe she was 93 when she passed, and she had lived such an incredible, impactful life and left such a resounding legacy. We could all only be so lucky that when our day comes, have left so many people so changed behind them. So she is my hero, without

Madeline Walden: 47:21

a doubt. That's amazing. Erin, do you have a wildlife hero who

Erin Lundy: 47:25

let me think on that, but you're my wildlife Thank you. That's very flattering. However, we did have a guest come recently, and he specifically reached out to me to ask about madelineal legged frogs, and he wanted to see our conservation area. Was also very interested in the red legged frog tadpoles that we had at the time, and he told me that he was able to meet Jane Goodall, and because of the experience he had, he and his mom founded Justin's frog project. And they work to save frogs in California, which is one of the cutest things I've ever heard. And he has been doing it since, I think he was, like, seven years old. And they have raised funds to buy acres of forest in order to save frogs. And I was like, this is one of the best impacts that anyone could ever have, is they've spread so much of their love and ambition and passion for saving wildlife that this kid that came into the aquarium was like, this is because of Dr Jane Goodall. And I thought that was really cool.

Jeff Flocken: 48:18

And isn't that kind of what we all want? We want to be the not only making the change ourselves, but inspiring others to do the change. And that's where the aquarium Pacific has this wonderful advantage that we have millions of people who come through our doors and can be inspired to go out and be the next game good all and be that person who's making a difference on the planet, alongside the people work here who truly are making a difference.

Erin Lundy: 48:42

I thought of an answer. Chandler, did you hear it? We were doing a camp, and your answer just reminded me a summer camp last year, and they started to highlight conservation as a major component of our summer camp. And so I was working with one of our educators, Ty, and he asked if we could do like a kind of conservation project overview. And then they did these little presentations. And some of them were, they're little kid presentations, you know, like seven to nine year olds, but incredibly nuanced for the age group too, because we had given them so much of the information what we're doing. One of them was about sea otters and how hunters were hunting otters for their fur. And one of them was this kid named Kenji who created he called it a brochure. It is a piece of paper that I now have laminated at my desk on the wall that just says, if you find a mountain yellow legged frog, call and it's my phone number at the aquarium, well, that's

Madeline Walden: 49:29

what I would do, and it is

Erin Lundy: 49:30

just his little informational brochure on it. And I don't know when I got to the point to where I hope that I'm inspiring the next generation of people, but that moment, I was sobbing like it's so impactful, it sounds silly, but just to know like this species that very few people know about and functionally is on the brink of extinction and needs a lot of help, that a kid now knows about that and made an entire project about it. And I think he was the only kid in that group who decided to focus on Mount yellow. Frogs, but it was so sweet and it was so impactful to know that the information I provided then inspired someone else to do something. And I think I will remember Kenji for the rest of my life, despite the fact that I don't think Kenji will remember me for very long.

Jeff Flocken: 50:13

I just love that he put your personal cell phone address and social security number on his brochure and told people a drop by call, anytime, anytime you should do that here on

Madeline Walden: 50:23

the mail, I will plug Erin's

Erin Lundy: 50:25

phone number will be in the show. This is my mother's maiden name, my first pet's name. So you grew up on three favorite passwords, but it was you

Madeline Walden: 50:34

That's amazing. Okay. Last question, what's your favorite animal of all time?

Jeff Flocken: 50:38

Pangolins, taper though, Cappy and anteaters.

Madeline Walden: 50:41

Those are those are more than one animal, but I will accept that answer. I also side note, want to hear about Chewbacca.

Jeff Flocken: 50:47

Oh, I'd be happy to tell you, Chewbacca is my puppy. Not a puppy anymore. He is always puppies. They're always puppies. He is a golden retriever rescue from a dog meat farm in South Korea that I was part of a rescue for the individuals on that farm. We were able to work with the farmer, who voluntarily decided to change over to a more humane career. So we helped him transition to water delivery, which is what he really wanted to do with his life. And in return, he turned over all the dogs on the farm to us, one of whom was chew Ibaka. And I did fall in love with Chewbacca and was able to adopt him. It was a rough start. He had been on the farm for, we think, about four to five years. He really had a lot of trauma. This happened right before covid. So then one of the one of the many wonderful things that came out of covid was that I was home every day for almost a year where I could just have him by my side, help him become a secure and healthy and happy individual, and now he is a part of my family, with my wife, my daughter, myself, and our cat who tolerates him, and he is just a wonderful, wonderful part of my life.

Madeline Walden: 51:58

So that's Chewbacca. I lied though I have one more question, best part of the job so

Jeff Flocken: 52:03

far this podcast episode, being on this podcast, having my phone golf, I know time don't have to answer that question. My daughter, she's calling from Australia. The best part of the job so far has been the people. They support each other. They genuinely seem to get along. And as I think I mentioned before, they are just so committed to helping animals and caring for animals that anyone who's in that category is inherently someone that I am going to love being around. So thank you for all those people here and allowing me to be with them.

Madeline Walden: 52:36

Amazing. Thank you so much for coming on the podcast. Hopefully you'll come back and join us in a couple months, once you're a little more that's it. One and done. Exactly We already established.

Jeff Flocken: 52:45

Security is dragging me out of here. As I exit the studio, I'm being escorted off the premises.

Madeline Walden: 52:50

Nice knowing you, Jeff, thanks so much for joining us. Thank you both.

Erin Lundy: 52:59

Aquarium of the Podcific is brought to you by Aquarium of the Pacific, a 501, c3 nonprofit organization. Keep up

Madeline Walden: 53:06

with the aquarium on social media at aquarium Pacific on Tiktok, Instagram, Facebook, Twitter and LinkedIn.

Erin Lundy: 53:12

This podcast is produced by Erin Lundy and Madeline Walden. Our music is by Andrew reitzma, and our podcast art is by Randy Kenney. Special thanks to Cecile Fisher, Anita valez, our audio visual and education departments and our amazing podcast guests for taking time out of their day to talk about the important work that they do. Podcific isn't

Madeline Walden: 53:30

possible without the support of the Aquarium's donors, members, guests and supporters. Thanks so much for listening. You.