Grown-Up Church Kids
Grown-Up Church Kids is a podcast for anyone who grew up in church and is still figuring out what to do with it.
Hosted by Dwan Hill and Shama Mrema, the show blends honest conversation, humor, music, and storytelling as they unpack faith, culture, and the realities of growing up in and around the church. From choir stands to church politics, from deep belief to hard questions, nothing is off limits.
It’s real, it’s reflective, and it’s for anyone who’s ever asked:
What do I keep, what do I let go of, and where is God in all of it now?
Grown-Up Church Kids
The Truth About Church Hurt, Suffering & Bad Theology with Ian Simkins
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“Everything happens for a reason.” It sounds comforting, but for many people it’s one of the reasons faith starts to fall apart. In this conversation, Ian Simkins calls out the church phrases and shallow theology that don’t hold up in real suffering, and why so many people who grew up in church feel disconnected, disappointed, and unsure what to believe. We talk about church hurt, leadership pressure, and what it looks like to rebuild an honest, grounded faith on the other side. If you’ve ever felt like church language didn’t match your real life, this conversation will put words to it.
ABOUT THE SHOW:
Grown Up Church Kids is more than a show, it’s a full-circle moment where Sunday Morning Meets Real Life. Bringing together community, conversations, shared stories, and songs that shaped a generation, this is a space for Grown-Up Church Kids to reconnect with their roots, redefine their journeys, and celebrate the faith together.
There are more of us than you think.
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And one of the ones that that does really bother me is often said by well-meaning people when someone is facing a really hard season and they'll say something like, Everything happens for a reason. You got diagnosed with cancer, you lost a kid, you you're facing some real hardship, and someone I really do think they're well-meaning, and they often don't know what to do with your suffering. They don't know how to sit with people in their pain. And I think that's the that's the bigger issue. So we'll we'll often kind of like extract some out of context first in an attempt often to make ourselves feel better about the season you're walking in. I think we need a much deeper, more robust theology of suffering and pain. I meet people all the time who handed a version of Christianity that said, hey, just pray this prayer and your whole life becomes a walk in the park. Yeah, Jurassic Park. Like everything's gotten harder. Like everything's so either you lied to me or God's gypped me. I think stages are occupational hazards for pastors. I think that there's nothing natural about a platform with lights and a microphone and a room full of people facing you while you talk. So you have to intentionally it's counterform what that does to your ego, what that does to your soul.
SPEAKER_04My name is Duane. I'm here with my friend Shamma. And uh I'm glad you joined us today. Uh Grown Up Church Kids is where Sunday morning meets real life, and there's more of us church kids than you think there are. We're everywhere. Whether you grew up Pentecostal or Baptist or Catholic or Presbyterian or Methodist, this is where we can hang out and celebrate um the good and also some of the hard of being in church. We're not trying to uh ignore the hard things or highlight the good things. We're just trying to tell our stories because I believe stories are better than sermons in a lot of ways. And so um, man, I'm just gonna tell you, I already know this episode is gonna be really, really great because we have the pastor.
unknownA pastor.
SPEAKER_04We have a pastor coming. We're gonna ask him the hard questions. Yeah. How to live how to leave a church.
SPEAKER_06We've been jokingly calling each other pastor.
SPEAKER_04Yeah, how to leave. We got a real pastor. We got a real pastor. He's gonna he's gonna tell us how to leave a church, um, how to come back to church, how to uh, I don't know. I mean, the things that you want to talk to a pastor about, but you were maybe nervous to ask, yeah. He's gonna be with us. And um, there's a lot of you all that are loving your church right now, you want to stay there. I love my church that I'm in right now. There are others of you that are thinking about leaving a church. Other of you are in between churches. We get to talk to a pastor who knows how to help whatever situation you're in. And he kind of whooped me in Bible Bowl too, sword drill. He kind of he kind of whooped my butt. But yeah, yeah, he was he did not come to play. He's great. But uh we also just want to let you know, man, there's a lot of stuff coming up for the grown-up church kids show that you want to be involved in. There's choir room coming up. If you like choir, you like singing, you like choir rehearsals. We got that information down in the description in the description. We got a live show coming up for the grown-up church kids show coming up pretty soon. Um, also, make sure you like and subscribe to the show so that anytime we release a video with our friends, you'll be the first to know about that. Also, uh we would love to send you some cool stuff like a like a throwback playlist and a quiz to figure out what kind of church kid. I mean, we got a lot of stuff going on, man. A lot of stuff going on. Um, but I'm glad you're here for this episode. Uh, make sure you stick around. We got music coming up, we got guests coming up, we got all kinds of stuff coming up this season that you're gonna want to be a part of. But I think we're about ready to jump into it. Let's jump in. All right, thanks for being here. I am really excited to announce today, like we've been saying, every episode has a uh special guest speaker. We used to do this in our church growing up. Uh, there'll be special food, special choir, uh, maybe special outfits. But today we have a special friend, special guest who I'm actually meeting for the first time today. So everything you learn about him, I'm about to learn. Um, he is a pastor in the Nashville area, south of Nashville, at a church called uh The Bridge. And uh I've heard so many good things about this pastor from his music team. Uh, you may have seen some of his um Instagram posts that have just been so encouraging to so many of us. And uh we thought it'd be good to have the one and only Pastor Ian Simpkins on the Grown Up Churkins. Welcome, bro. Thank you for having me, man. I'm honored. Welcome, man. Welcome. You're okay. First of all, you're not a black square. I when we first were looking for guests to come on, I was like, can we invite Black Square Guy? Like wherever he is, even he's in Chicago, LA, I don't know where he is, but Black Square Guy will be a lot of fun. You're you're a lot more fun than a black square.
SPEAKER_02It's on Instagram, man. I did realize though, only doing black squares, people don't realize it's just me. Like, even encouragement, people will be like, oh, I'm so grateful for this organization. You're like, that's just me making screenshots. That's great.
SPEAKER_08That's how it is.
SPEAKER_02Sorry.
SPEAKER_04In some ways, that's cool though. You can walk in Kroger or Walmart or your kids' games and not have to worry about someone coming up to you and being like, Are you uh That's for sure? Absolutely. So it's kind of you kind of like genius level marketing, man. It's like we got a little bit of a.
SPEAKER_02I appreciate it. It was mostly I'm just not smart enough to learn Canva, and it was the only thing that I actually knew how to write and then capture. I was like, I'll use Apple Notes. That'll that'll get the job done.
SPEAKER_04Wow, wow, well done, man. I'm there have been so many times where I'm scrolling and probably shouldn't be scrolling, to be honest with you, and I come across something that you've written, and I'm like, God met me in my dirt. You know what I'm saying? Like he met me in a time where I wasn't even paying attention to him, and this encouragement came across, and I'm sure a lot of people have that experience from you, man. So uh you're in some ways my Instagram pastor. Oh man. I mean, I'm I'm honored.
SPEAKER_01You need a real pastor, though. I need a real remiss about that's what we're talking about today.
SPEAKER_06You got an Instagram pastor, you got a TikTok pastor. Yeah, yeah.
SPEAKER_01Build your own pastor because that's not special. Build your own pastor, isn't it? Build your own pastor. It's one of many streams.
SPEAKER_04You must do it. Build your own pastor. Build your own. Oh, please do. You must like the build-a-bear.
SPEAKER_06He's gotta be a specific fan of a specific NFL team. Yes, yes. You gotta build the change at this point. Right. Certain kind of sneakers. Yeah, yeah.
SPEAKER_04Husband and one wife. Husband of one wife. We gotta be very clear these days because you know, build your own past could get kind of wild, man.
SPEAKER_06It could be, yeah.
SPEAKER_04People build their own.
SPEAKER_06People would love that, though. People would be like, yeah, you know, it's time. My opinion is that pastors used to be fat, old, and uncool.
SPEAKER_02I mean, I'm nailing the uncool part for what it's work, man.
SPEAKER_06I gotta be uncool and spade. Fat, old, and uncool. But now there's this new, look at you, hip. Nah, come on. Target all target. Come on, come on. Waves, come on. Cool glasses. You went to you went to come on. $12. Daniel used to go to Walmart. Lenscrafter. Lenscrafter. Lenscrafter. They go to that Walmart, the uh, the what is it called? I eye care place at Walmart. They get the $12 frames. Not now. These are $12. $12. 100%. I I stand corrected.
SPEAKER_04I stand corrected, man. Okay, well, if we built our pastor, we wouldn't, we wouldn't build him. Yeah, yeah. Um appreciate that. I mean, that kind of segues into what I want to talk about, though, because uh a lot of well all of us came from some type of church environment. Um, a lot of folks who watch this show came up from a church environment. I'm curious. Tell us about your background in church. Where where what kind of church kid are you?
SPEAKER_02Yeah, man. I uh I spent most of my childhood at a Christian missionary alliance church outside of Detroit, Michigan. So that's a uh uh it's a really beautiful tradition, a beautiful denomination. Our our little tiny church growing up was probably, I think we were funding five or six missionary families. And so like when they would come home on furlough, like we were their home church, and this is you know pre-internet, so they're like bringing photo albums and stuff. But before that, the first church that my parents brought us to is uh uh a little church called Shalom House.
SPEAKER_04Come on.
SPEAKER_02And you I mean, it was like people sat on pillows, and it was legend has it that like Phil Kiki would come and play on occasion, and it was that yeah, that church didn't last too long, okay, apparently. But I have these recollections of this kind of like Jesus hippie kind of environment for the uh first couple years of my my Christian faith.
SPEAKER_06That's cool. Thanks for watching Grown Up Church Kids. I hate to interrupt the show, but I have announcements. That's right, we have to do announcements here, and we can't pass out bulletins. So we have to you have to turn your attention to the screen. I'm assuming you only have one screen. But if you're a first, second, or third time visitor, thank you. Welcome. We have a free gift for you. Also, if you've been here more than that, we still have a free gift for you. Go to grownupchurchkids.com, sign up. We want to send you something. Everybody loves free stuff. Can I hear you say free stuff? No, I'm just kidding, I can't hear you. It's a video. But we know you love free stuff, so go to grownupchurchkids.com so we can give you something. I I wish I had more announcements. I love taking up your time, but let's get back to the episode.
SPEAKER_02I was 15, 16, I was playing in a punk band, but my my thought was I'm gonna move to California and study music, you know, learn to surf and call it a day.
unknownWow.
SPEAKER_02When I was 16, our our pastor pulled me aside and said, Hey, I want you to preach next month. And I was like, Oh, hard pass.
SPEAKER_06And he's like any inclination that you were a fan of preaching or wanted to preach or loved the word or in the word?
SPEAKER_02I was kind of a class clown. I think maybe it was like a like a way to like, here, let's let's direct this towards something useful, maybe. Wow. But I had expressed zero interest, and he was like a formal, he was a royal mounty in the Canadian Army, so like big burly dude. So I said no, thank you. And he goes, Oh, I wasn't asking you, I'm telling you. And I was like, shoot, man. So and then I yeah, I don't usually tell this part, but I was like, what what do I preach on? And he goes, The Lord will reveal that to you. And I was like, all right, Obi-Wan, what is that? What is that? I don't know. And he goes, We'll figure it out. So, so and it ended up being like a fairly um prophetic thing for me to teach on. I I called it something like Moses the reluctant leader, and that was in a lot of ways foreshadowing a lot, a lot what would happen in the next couple of decades. So I preached it, and uh, I'll be candid, it was uh terrible. It was r really embarrassingly bad. I like walked off the stage so embarrassed. You know, my family and friends were in the church, and it was objectively bad. And this this sweet old woman in our church came up to me. Well, she said two things. First, she like pointed back at the pulpit and she goes, That was bad. I was like, Thank you. I'm aware. But then she like, I don't know if you ever had this kind of moment. She like looked into my soul and she said, But I believe the Lord has given you a voice, so you better learn how to actually use it. And then like walked away. And I was like, Wow. What do I? So that began uh what I call kind of a uh three or four year wrestling match between me and God. I wish I could tell you that I I, you know, I fell to fell to my knees and surrendered right then and there, but it's sort of like that was spooky. Now what now what do I do? And uh but that was certainly like the the beginning of the seed being planted. And then I, you know, there's a bunch of other elements there. I I accidentally became a lead pastor uh when I was 24 because the lead guy was was you know forcibly removed and the church was desperate. So I again that kind of like reluctant leadership has sort of followed me uh through a lot of my life. But I heard this definition of preaching recently. Uh a guy named Sam Alberry, and it's it's become my favorite definition of preaching to what you were just saying. He said, I've come to believe that preaching is simply enjoying the Bible in front of others. I like love that it's not I'm not here to like impress you or make you think that I'm smart or to even like it's like, oh man, I here's what the Lord showed me this week. I like can't wait to tell you guys. Like, I'm so excited with our community, and I know it's gonna hit you differently than it's gonna hit you because we're actually living life together and we're breaking bread together and we're spending time together, and we're you know, I was sharing with our staff a couple days ago that there's this passage in Acts where uh it's Peter and John before the Sanhedrin, and they're like, you know, trying to get them to shut up, and they're like, hard pass. And there's this verse, uh, I think it's verse 13, and it's well, first it says, uh they could see that they were ordinary, unschooled men, and I'm like, but that's rude. That's like you had to include that. Then it says, but they took note that these men had been with Jesus. And I was like, but I think that's the only thing I care about. Not like, wow, wasn't Ian so clever, or didn't that like final illustration really land? It's like that's someone who's been with Jesus. Yeah. That's like all that's all I care that my kids see. It's like all I care that like is at the center of our marriage. Like, we're gonna disagree. I'm gonna miss the mark.
SPEAKER_04Yeah.
SPEAKER_02That guy's been with Jesus.
SPEAKER_04Beautiful, man. That thing's beautiful. Beautiful. Um I want to hear more about um I want to hear so many things. I don't even know what question to ask you first. You mentioned first sermon, start a church at 24. You mentioned you have married and kids. Somewhere in there, I gotta get in. What about where do you want to go? It's up to you. Let's let's go back to Were you raised in church. Yep. Your parents are are or still Christians. Yes. Okay. Um When did their faith become your faith? Let's start there. Like, did you young age, old age, when did you come into a serious faith?
SPEAKER_02I I don't mean this as a cop-out. I feel like it's always in progress. Okay. When people say, Well, you know, when when did uh or how do we phrase it in church world? When did you get saved? Yeah, or when when did faith become real for you? I feel like it's always becoming progressively more real to me. And I think part of what what I was so moved by early on is my my parents are just the best people, man. Like they I'm the oldest of seven kids, and you know, we grew up mo most of my childhood in a pretty tiny house, and they were just always flinging the door wide open for buddies of mine that got kicked out of their house, that needed a dinner, that needed a place to stay. So like I got like a front row seat to like actual gospel life, not just verse recitation. So there's a there's a lot of my upbringing that I just I I credit to them. Like Eric and Colette Simpkins just like walked the talk in some really remarkable ways that no one will ever know about, and that's kind of the point, you know. So even though I had this like angsty, I don't know what to do with all this, and you know, maybe it wasn't a full deconstruction, but certainly there was some dark nights of the soul. There were seasons where I'm like, I don't know how I feel about any of this, and and I saw behind the curtain a bit when I was studying ministry and that kind of messed with my head a fair deal. Uh that was hard to reconcile, but I was also probably an idealistic 20-year-old, you know. So like all all of those, all of those pieces I think have led to shape who I am today. But I I it is no exaggeration to say that I am the product of uh two incredible parents, but also um some like really formative mentors in my life, the kinds of men who saw the train wreck before it happened and they're like, hey, we're getting coffee once a month because you are not headed in the right direction. And I will not take no for an answer. And I can now look over my shoulder and think, there's probably five names that I honestly don't think I would even be in ministry if it wasn't for. So like I'm very, very that that gratitude is not far from me. And it's giving me a heart, I think, for the next generation that's coming up. Like, oh man, yeah, I'm now the age that some of these guys were when I like really needed a mentor or someone to pour into me and tell me the hard truth about myself. Yeah. And uh I'm just yeah, so grateful for that.
SPEAKER_04Could you tell us your top five sins? Yeah, absolutely. Just make sure you say in detail date, time, location. I brought a flannel graph, actually. This will help.
SPEAKER_05We're going to illustrate coming in at number four. What a wild segue. Gluttony. That's right.
SPEAKER_04Well, I asked that because I feel like there's a lot of people expecting pastors in the name of vulnerability to be like, you didn't just tell your testimony until you tell us exactly what you did and when you did it. Oh, sure. And there's no value in it until it's the dirtiest, most vulgar version. I just want to celebrate. I took I said that joke on purpose to really highlight that is enough of a testimony to celebrate that you had great parents. Oh man. You had great mentors who obviously led you to hope and wholeness. Totally. Um, without like cancel culture being like, well, what did you actually do?
SPEAKER_02Yeah, sure.
SPEAKER_04You know what I'm saying? And I and one of the things I want to talk to you about is our generation, millennial, a little older, a little younger, is having a hard time trusting pastors who don't say everything. Yeah. Or trusting pastors who um, you know, there's questions about if they're perfect or not. It's almost like two extremes. You have to be like completely dirty, completely terrible, or completely perfect. That's it. And there's not a lot of mercy and grace for a pastor who is what you said in process and growing. Yeah. So just talk about that. Like, how how can people like us engage in church with leadership that we are struggling to trust because of those two extremes?
SPEAKER_02I mean, I would first say I get it. I think a lot of leaders don't do themselves any favors when younger generations are like, hey, I have an issue with how we spent this money or the way that we posted this online, or like, well, too bad. Uh I'm the boss, I'm the leader, you need to fall in line or get out. Um I I don't know that that's always the the most helpful posture to take. You're totally right though. There's two ditches, and I I'm um by nature, I'm much more uh stoic. Uh like cards close to the chest, never let them see a sweat. That is that's sort of my default position. And I've had a number of mentors that have helped me grow in like reasonable vulnerability, but I I remember the it was the first family that ever sat me down to tell me they were leaving the church and wanted to tell me why. And I'll never forget it because it was the first one. And she said, We find you to be just a little too honest about your own struggles. And she said, How can you effectively lead us if you yourself are still wrestling? And that like knocked the wind out of me, man. I was like, I I could be stoic, I could be the I could be the Superman that you're talking about. Yeah, I'm that person. Yeah, I didn't, but there was a very real, but on the other side of it, I heard a preacher recently who in the sermon he said, uh, I don't need therapy, this is my therapy. And you're like, nah, man, therapy is therapy. That's not what this is. That's you need a t-shirt.
SPEAKER_04Therapy is therapy.
SPEAKER_07Therapy is therapy.
SPEAKER_04Not your sermon.
SPEAKER_06If I would have heard him, I would have been after the service, they would have been like, hey man, I need $150 in cash, and I don't accept insurance. Yeah, I need $100, I need to opt my value. We all need $100,000. We all need $100. My family is six. It's time six. By the way, since we all had to listen to you.
SPEAKER_04This is my therapy, is crazy.
SPEAKER_06This is my therapy, it's wild.
SPEAKER_04But I feel like a lot of preachers preach like that without saying that. Yeah, you're right. In many circles, I'm the kind of circle I grew up in, I would hear preachers just rail on sin and you you're not holy, and you know, you're going to hell, and fire brimstone type stuff. Sure. And I feel like that's kind of the same category. It's like, you can like, are you having a hard time receiving the love of Jesus? You need a friend right now? You need you need a hug? I feel like you're kind of mad right now.
SPEAKER_02And I don't I don't know if we all feel that right now. Yeah, I think what's tricky about that is uh, oh man, I could talk about this for so long. I think stages are occupational hazards for pastors. I think that there's nothing natural about a platform with lights and a microphone and a room full of people facing you while you talk. So you have to intentionally it's counterform what that does to your ego, what that does to your soul. Um is so strange to me. I'll I'll sometimes meet guys who, you know, type A control freak type of uh in everything in the organization, but then they'll say, like, I can't help that my church puts me on a pedestal. And I'm like, Yes, you can. Like dismantle the pedestal, like climb on down. Vulnerability within reason, but there is this odd kind of parasocial thing that happens that sometimes, you know, and it's the we could talk about green rooms, we could talk about, you know, all of the things that I I'm sympathetic to. Yeah, a lot of pastors are introverts. They need a little bit of time to gather the thoughts, rest their voice. I just think if we're not my I had a uh one of my mentors actually, when he talked about um like deciding who like who you're who your people are gonna be, he said, find people who love you who aren't cowards. Because there's plenty of people that love you, but if they don't if they're not gonna tell you the hard truth about yourself, you know that you got spinach in your teeth, like that's dangerous. There's plenty of people that'll be happy to confront you and tell you all the ways that you screwed up. But if you don't know that they're for you, you're gonna have a hard time receiving that. Find people who love you and aren't cowards and are not impressed. Yeah. And however how big the tour was or how big the event was, you know, like even being a father is like the greatest joy, but also the most sanctifying thing I've ever done. Because it doesn't matter what I just spoke at. Oh like, hey, there's a poopy diaper with your name on it, man. Like, welcome home, we missed you. But also, you know what I mean? That just has a way of like if you thought for a second you were a big deal, yes, I just love the beauty. I'm just uh yeah, I'll get emotional talking about it, man. The the the groundedness, there's nothing like I get to go throw the ball with my kid when I get home.
SPEAKER_04Yeah.
SPEAKER_02And he doesn't he doesn't give a rip how many views that got, the degrees on my wall. And I think that I think pastors need to be really anyone on stage is really, they need to be mindful about uh uh counterforming what a platform can do to us.
SPEAKER_04How many kids do you have?
SPEAKER_02I got three three little boys. Three little boys.
SPEAKER_04That's awesome, man. I wonder why that if that's why Paul frames up the qualifications of a leader with household, you know, husband and one wife, someone who manages household. Because you know what we're finding, unfortunately, is that you Usually when we find pastors that are falling, something is not right at home. Yeah. Right. Whether it's marriage or addiction. And for some reason, we're deceived. I mean, I feel it in my position. We're deceived to think that my platform success will automatically equal marriage and parenting success. Right. And it's the opposite to your point. It's like there's an opp occupational hazard. And um I've been convicted, man, to put as much energy in my wife and kids that I put on. It's hard though, man. I mean I mean, all of us have a platform, a public platform. I don't know if people understand that that is a real temptation.
SPEAKER_02Oh yeah.
SPEAKER_04To to be good at your job and love your wife more than that.
SPEAKER_02Totally.
SPEAKER_06I found that almost like the higher the high of the out-of-the-house career, whatever thing. When I get back home, I almost like have to level set. Yeah, yeah. The the reset sometimes is like top tougher. Yeah. But and there's neurobiology to support that too.
SPEAKER_02Like the like in your case, the the the dopamine rush of a room full of laughter is like neurochemically addictive.
SPEAKER_04Yes.
SPEAKER_02And I imagine at home, your family is not side splitting, rolling on the floor all day, every day. Maybe they are.
SPEAKER_06I got toddlers. I'm killing them toddlers, dude. Man, that's great.
SPEAKER_02That's a good point. The elevator of doing the stairs behind the island. But that's exactly it though. There's a there's so much applause on the road to workaholism.
SPEAKER_00Yeah.
SPEAKER_02And I think uh uh the way I put it recently was uh rest will feel like stress if busyness is your drug. Like the pulling back, turning the phone off, man. If there's so many cheerleaders on the road to doing more, bigger stages, bigger rooms, more deals, whatever it is. And I think the uh, you know, you talk about um unfortunate leaders that have imploded their lives. It it's very rarely something that just happened on a dime. You're like, oh no, for the last 10 years, it's been this slow drift. And this slow, this is this is this is so often what the prophets in the old testament. It's why they often either like were killed or went crazy. They're like, you guys don't see it. If you keep doing this, this is where you'll end up. And our our nature now is the same it was then. They're like, ah, you're being dramatic. You're thinking, you know, like how do we guard these things and pay attention to the drift? Yeah, it's people that will tell you the hard truth about yourself. Like, yo, man, I you got a good heart. I'm excited for you. But I'm excited for you, is so shady, right?
SPEAKER_04It's not a compliment, but true. You need those people, man.
SPEAKER_07Yeah, yeah.
SPEAKER_04You need those people 100%. I want to talk to both of y'all about this because both of you all have a social media platform specifically that is, I don't know if I call it a Christian platform because social media, Instagram is not a Christian platform, but the content that you're producing is based on Christian content. Um, how do y'all do that? Because all the all the stats would say that being on Instagram more and more and more is probably not good for you. Yet I enjoy what y'all do. And every time I'm on there, more and more and more, I'm like, thank God Ian's on here, thank God Shama's on here so I can laugh and learn. I just want to talk through that. Like, what do you two questions? One, how do you balance healthy content creation for your own platform? And two, like, what inspires you to be on Instagram or TikTok right now? So let's start with number one. How do you balance creative output with dangerous um activity on social media?
SPEAKER_06There you go. Man, this is there's a lot going on in that in that question. But man, I I I don't know. I I think about years ago when me and my brother had asked would always beg my dad for his camcorder and would use it, would film something, and then we'd have to ask my dad for his work computer so we can upload that you know with a fire wire onto his computer, and then hey, when you're done working, can we edit that video? Yeah. And so the the the fact that and we're like, oh great, and now my family can see it. And so making stuff where everyone can see it is it uh to me, it's I don't know, it's almost like this, it's like being in a different planet in the middle of my life to where like I I loved doing something, and now I get to do something on this level that I would have never dreamed of. And and to me, I'm like, that's an incredible blessing. Yeah, um, and then at the same time, I know like I also learn on social media too and on YouTube. Like I've I I started grilling and I started doing all these things, and I made I made like butter chicken last weekend, and it was incredible because so I think there's all this. I I to me, I really believe that there is uh uh more beauty on social media than there is ugly. I think there is a ugly, but I'm like, man, the be families are reconnecting, people are learning passions and hobbies and ideas. I don't know. I want to be a part of the beauty, yeah, the beauty side of it. You know, that's my and I and I do encourage, like I've done some um some I don't know, panels or whatever, I'm talking to young people about it. I'm like, guys, like like and I know there's a lot of fear in posting and engaging because like, oh, that's the app where this happened, and oh this happened, and did you see this person posted this? But I'm like, yeah, but there's a whole other side to it where I'm like where you're there and artists are there, and the choir room songs are there. And I'm like, dude, if you if you just get a dose of that, that's a good day, you know, in moderation. Totally. You know, it's a good day on Instagram.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, you know, that's that's that's where I'm at. That's a good answer. And it is algorithmic too. Like, you know, sometimes these pastors will dunk on themselves or like, ah, TikTok's just all this, this, and that. And you're like, that's an algorithm, my guy.
SPEAKER_05That is your Brick my break. Yeah, yeah. It's wild. I don't know. I don't know.
SPEAKER_04Kind of soak soak uh I'm with you, man. Realization. Yeah, so tell me about your creative process here. Do you start with I want to post on social media, or do you start with um I have a thought?
SPEAKER_02Yeah. It's not it's not even that. I love this question, man. Everything that I post is rooted in a locale. It's either something that I'm working on with the bridge, or sometimes it's after the fact. You know, sometimes, you know how sometimes something in the room will resonate that you did not anticipate it resonating. You're like, oh, I need to, I need to double-click on that a little bit. So sometimes it's before a sermon, sometimes it's after a sermon. But the thing that I think helps keep me uh rooted but motivated is it I it it finds its placement first with an actual people. I'm not, I'm not trying to pastor the internet. If anyone finds it helpful, that's the other word I keep coming back to. There's so much content, so many brilliant people, so much smarter than me. I'm like, I don't need, I don't feel the need to add to the noise. But when I first started posting, the first couple, that was the feedback. Like, this was a really helpful way to think about it. And I thought, oh, I do want to be helpful. But again, it was rooted in our actual church or our actual family, or it's an actual conversation with somebody at a coffee shop. So it all finds its rootedness in real people and not just Ian in an ivory tower pontificating about culture. I think if I did that, uh, one, I think you could tell. I think it's like, oh, this guy, I don't think is rubbed elbows with a human in a minute. Like someone should go check on him. But two, it's like um, I'm not beholden. It's not there's no like label that's like, hey, you need six posts a week or something. So if I there was a stretch a couple months ago, I got real sick. I just had didn't have any energy to even think, let alone post. So I didn't. And I didn't have an agent that was like breathing down my neck. No one's like, hey, dude, the the algorithm, the you know, like there's I well-meaning people that'll give advice, yeah, but I just get to do it for fun. Yeah, and like I don't know, man. It is it has blown me away how encouraging the internet can be. Now, to be fair, I I've been called a heretic more in the last two years than maybe my entire adult life combined. There there is a dark side to it, there is for sure. And people, which even for me, when someone you know says you're a heretic, I'm like, you could just say you disagree. Like, we don't have to go right to heresy. That word means something, you know, like steps before that.
SPEAKER_06Yeah, you just all Hey, my name is is a good story.
SPEAKER_02Exactly. Don't just work on the honorary heretic. You're offending the true heretic. He's way too orthodox for that word.
SPEAKER_04Man, people say I know crazy stuff behind that.
SPEAKER_06Anyone to your face?
unknownYeah.
SPEAKER_06To your face, man. Yeah.
SPEAKER_02That is it is part of the role. That that is, I mean, I the it's a little hokey, but the the language I've been using with our staff in this season is I want us to have a steel spine and a tender heart. Because I think I if it's all steel spine, if someone says something to me and I'm like unaffected, that's not a good sign. Like I probably need to take a step back. But if every criticism just sends me reeling for four months, that's also probably not good. So, like, it's you know, what does she just say? The shrewd as serpents, gentle as doves. Like, how do we hold intention? Like, all right, I'm gonna receive what you said. You're a a per you're an image bearer that I care about and love. At some level, I'm like really sad that I offended you or hurt you or did something that in any way pained you.
SPEAKER_08Yeah.
SPEAKER_02But also, like we, you know, at at the bridge, we have a a teaching team process. So I I preach a first draft of every sermon three weeks before it's preached to a team of people that I invite to rip it to shreds. And the sermons are always so much better because of them. Wow. So I have these steps of like, it doesn't make me impenetrable, obviously. Yeah, but they catch things before I say it on a stage. And there's the it it reflects the diversity of our community so much better. It just is so much more rich. So, like, at the very least, I feel some confidence in if someone you know doesn't like that I uh I dunked on nickelback in a sermon, and they're like, Hey, I work with Nickelback.
SPEAKER_01You're like, Well, heretic H E R.
SPEAKER_02Like, this is how you remind me, is what I that is so cool.
SPEAKER_04I mean, there's so many things. You preach to a team three weeks before your sermon. Yes, sir. That means you three weeks from now, you already know what you're preaching.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, yeah. We try to, yeah, I typically have like a 12-month uh preaching calendar kind of sketched out. Yeah.
SPEAKER_04Wow. I I wanted to highlight that because I think sometimes people who are not on staff, they perceive pastors just be kind of going off. Oh, sure. Like, because this news cycle came along this week and he said that he must be talking to that girl. Oh, for sure. And they don't know, actually, that might be the spirit. Yeah. Yeah. Yep. Speaking through a man who prayed and planned earlier, who's not perfect, who doesn't have everything or have all knowledge, but has enough knowledge by the spirit of God to plan a sermon. Um, I that's one of the things that I think might help people, like we talked about earlier, build that trust back with leadership, is that they know, man, my pastor is talking to a team. Totally. Yeah. And if this is happening today, if this scripture came up to him three weeks ago with a team and they approved it and he's preaching now, this might be a word that I need to pay attention to in my church.
SPEAKER_02Bro, and I don't want to get too charismatic on you. That happens all the time.
SPEAKER_07Yes.
SPEAKER_02Where something will happen on a Friday, and I'm like, what text are we preaching on Sunday? You are kidding me. Like it is there's been so many goosebump moments where I'm like, there's no way a year earlier, I or anyone on our team could have known. Wow. Which is also a tricky dance because we we are also living in an era where it feels like it's more common than I've seen where people online are like, if your pastor doesn't say exactly these words, leave that church. Or if your pastor didn't, let me know. I'm putting together a list. They shoot you either way.
SPEAKER_04What do we do? Oh, yeah. What do we do? What was the last thing? I don't know if we could talk about this on the day. I don't know. Should we? Well, but by the time this comes out, there'll probably another one. Fill in the blank. Yeah. But this happened a month ago. I remember going to church and um a shout out to my pastor at Crosspoint, um, Kevin Queen. It's the best. He called most of people in the church to do the same thing on that Friday. And he was like, hey, I'm about to preach. This thing just happened. Can you just talk me through how you're feeling right now? And I I felt seen as an individual, but also my trust for my pastor went up. Incredible. Because you know how it's easy to be like, I'm gonna preach what I want to preach and what God told me.
SPEAKER_06Yeah.
SPEAKER_04And I'm not saying things wrong with that, but I'm grateful for pastors like you and pastors like Kevin that will be like, I don't see everything the same way that the rest of my congregation sees it. And even if I'm saying what I'm saying is true, it may be perceived differently because of that person's life experience.
SPEAKER_02Bro, that Dallas Willard once said one of the hardest things in the world is to be right and not hurt people with it. And I think that uh props to your pastor, by the way, because he's such a big deal. And for him to take the time, that's real time to call up real people and go, hey, I actually really need your guide. That takes humility, that takes vulnerability, that takes equity. I like I honor that because um at the bridge we talk a lot about hey, it's not just uh like what position you hold, but how you hold it. And the how I think is becoming increasingly important. I just I feel like online right now, I just watch people in the comments section just dunking on each other back and forth. And I'm like, that's not how conversations work. It's just a series of declarations. That's not no one's moving the needle there. I think we've we've lost the art of like even on our teaching team, sometimes the feedback is hey, I don't think you meant it this way. But this line, as a as a woman, hits me this way, or someone from a different generation, like, I don't think you meant it that way, but this particular example you used like like really uh messed me up a little bit. And like, ah, of course I didn't mean that. But it does require, it is the most painful thing that I consistently do is inviting, because you know, it's an art form, so hopefully you poured some of yourself into it. That's hard, man. A room full of trusted people, though, even if it's even if you know they love them, or you love them, it's uh that's hard to hear sometimes.
SPEAKER_06That's hard. So with that, I mean for a while, I've been th wondering just now as you're talking like that, what are the like how do you fulfill the expectations of a pastor faithfully in a time where I mean, first of all, I'm sure when you tell people randomly somewhere that you're a pastor, you get a weird response. Yeah, yeah, yeah.
SPEAKER_02It runs a gamut, it's it's all over the place.
SPEAKER_06I feel like I, you know, I follow some news sources on Instagram and online where every time I it opens up, it's a mugshot of a pastor who did something bad, something evil. And so there seems to be this, okay, now your pastor shouldn't do this, shouldn't do that, has to say this, has to say that. Um, also he has to preach the word, also he has to visit you, also he has to do the kiss your baby. Um yeah, yeah. I mean, through that, what do you what do you do? What's a lot of how do you what are you talking about all those expectations? Good not. You know what I mean? With the heaviest backpack of expectations and you're talking to a room full of people who you know this person's grieving, this person's doing this, this person hates nickel back, this person works for nickelback. You know what I mean?
SPEAKER_02Like why that's such a good question. I I I'll first say I I definitely am not navigating that perfectly. There's a you know, the the joke is, you know, however many people are in your church, that's how many bosses you have. There's because everyone has an expectation of like he should be a coach, he should be a CEO, he should be a guru, he should be a sage, and there's there's probably fragments of truth in in all of that, and they're all bringing their own previous baggage, but also their previous expectations. That's all real. I think uh the first thing I will say is a a a rootedness of your identity in Christ, as cliche as that sounds, like the John 15 stuff, the abiding in the vine, if I'm not abiding first in Jesus, then I will be tempted to dance for what everyone thinks that I should be doing. You know, I'm an Enneagram three, and sometimes the threes downfall is they'll they'll shape shift to whatever they think the room requires, which can be a value. You spend your whole life shape shifting, you're gonna wake up at 70 and be like, I don't even know who I am. So, like a broodedness in Christ, I'd like truly believe, like Henry Nowin talks about, he says, the greatest task of the Christian leader is to always lead from his or her belovedness. And I read that at 19. I was like, that can't be the most important. There's no way. Like there's it's and now you know my 40s, and like, wow, man, I think he's I think he's right. The times I've gotten most in trouble is what I'm trying to perform for someone else, or like appease their complaint, or and sometimes the complaints are valid. Sometimes I am gonna miss the mark, and they're like, yo, that joke was not appropriate for a Sunday. And they're right, and I need to receive that criticism. But if I'm not leading and serving and teaching from a place of belovedness, then I will either like I'll armor up, yeah, or or I'll unravel. And I uh it is the internet, I don't think it's made that easier, you know. Sometimes you find out like you've been dunked on two days later, like, yo, this post went viral. Like, cool, can't wait to read the comments. You know, don't read the comments. Yeah. But man, I've I have a wife who's seen me at my very worst. And like every day she's like, I'll choose this one. I have I have boys that have seen me lose my temper hours after preaching a sermon on grace, and they're like, that's my dad. You know what I mean? Like, there's a I'm gonna I'm gonna screw up, I'm gonna mess up. Um people are gonna be upset. Um but like our team, there's like even just to brag on our elders, you know, like there's such a a beautiful mutuality there, and we're the we come from diverse backgrounds, but like, hey, we we got your back. If someone, you know, goes haywire on Google reviews or something, like they having that kind of um community is is just it's part of what grieves me for like how um how toxically individualized we've become. Like I think we have lost the beauty of the pot look, and like, oh man, we're in this together, even though you and I don't even speak the same language barely. And I I think that that's that's been a real uh anchoring thing for me in the season. Yeah.
SPEAKER_04Man. I remember it feels like when we were growing up in church, there was less church shopping. There was more like my mom's gone to church my whole life. Why would I go anywhere else?
SPEAKER_02Yeah.
SPEAKER_04But in our age bracket, there seems to be like, Man, I went here for a little while, I went here a little while, I didn't really like the music there, but man, the past over there is really great. I mean, my kids got a thing here, and I feel that. Um as a pastor, because most people don't get to talk to a pastor, they get to talk to the greeter, maybe the worship pastor, but they really get to talk to a pastor and and get to hear your perspective of what would you say to someone who wants to be in church, has questions about theology, um, is nervous about uh church leadership, is like concerned about trusting people because they come from a a church in the past and maybe broke their heart. Like that's a large group of people right now that's like raising a family and trying and and one of the main motivations is I got kids.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, totally.
SPEAKER_04So even though my brokenness is jacked up, I don't want my kids to grow up and not have a pastor or not have a church family, have kids. So that's a lot. But talk to that avatar, that mom and that dad, or that single person that wants, they feel something that that's calling them to church, but for all those reasons, they're like, man, help me. Yeah.
SPEAKER_02That's so timely, man. We we are seeing a ton of that. I think first to the pastors, I would say, value your student and kids' ministry. They're they're not just babysitters, they're not like the people caring for our kids and our students. I I don't think I I mean I met a lady a couple months ago. She came up to me on a Sunday. She she goes, she goes, Your preaching is okay, uh, but my kids love it here. So we're in. And I was like, thank thank you again.
SPEAKER_06Hey, do you think I'm a heretic?
SPEAKER_02Just check in. It depends. Are you the black spare guy? Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. But I also think uh, and again, it seems like a a little thing, but I, you know, I try to make it a point to be in the lobby before and after every service every Sunday. I don't I don't want people to go, yeah, he was okay on a stage, but I couldn't find him anywhere. I he he feels like uh a that felt like a performance that I did or didn't like, but I actually don't know the the person behind it all. But I also think it has to be more than just one sermon a year where you speak to doubt or you speak to wrestling. Like I think people we we gotta give people more credit than that. Like if if you can learn a lot about a community by how they respond to questions. And so if a mom or dad are like, I have questions about I think that's a real litmus test. And I think a lot of people, again, I you know, I've I've never lived in the Bible Belt before. So I feel like I'm still kind of learning some of that. Whereas other areas I've lived, you didn't have as nearly as many options. So you know, I met someone a couple months ago and they said uh you're our 12th church that we've checked out. And I'm like, that's a lot of time. But I've also never done it though. I've only ever worked in churches, so I'm really sympathetic to some of it, you're like checking the theological boxes.
SPEAKER_04Yeah.
SPEAKER_02But sometimes you're I I assume there's like a vibe thing. You're like, nothing was heretical, but like that was, but maybe it was an off week, but maybe this was a volunteer, maybe you know, there's all these other I think at the very least, if we can't be gracious with people's like honest questions, their honest doubts, I do think people can tell pretty quickly. Whether or not a place is safe to be honest about what's really going on in their head and heart. And I think that happens from the pulpit, but I think it also happens in your lobby. I think that happens on your website. And so I'm always trying to, like, first, when someone says, Hey, this happened in my last church, and I'm having a hard time trusting again, even just the phrase, it wouldn't make sense that you have a hard time trusting. Like, how can I help? Just even saying, Yeah, yeah, someone actually did legitimately wrong you rather than just skipping right over that, like, all right, how can I, you know, close the deal?
SPEAKER_04Yeah. Uh your planning center invite. Are you vetting? Oh, yeah, exactly. Exactly. Are you vetting next Sunday? What did you play again? What did you say? You play what you music, music you did, what you did. Kids, teacher. Oh, we have a vacancy in our next week, actually. Are you? What are the odds?
SPEAKER_01Just honor the humanity of people.
SPEAKER_02Like it feels so basic, man. But like to treat people like people and to acknowledge, man, people are complex beings. And sometimes when people leave, it's why I spent a lot of time, you know, getting coffee and lunch with other local pastors because it works both ways. You know, someone, someone left the church recently and they wanted something like a little more charismatic. And they say, We're gonna go check out this church. I'm like, I just had coffee with Pastor Mark. Three, let me text him right now. You guys are gonna love that church. We love you guys. And it's true. I like I would rather I would rather their family be at a place where they can flourish.
SPEAKER_04That is a James Bond pastor move. But it was genuine though. I love this pastor, I love that church. You know why that's James Bond? Is because I feel like a lot of people tell you that to shut you down. Yeah, right. And to qualify, there's something better. You're like, that guy's killing it. Actually, he's great. I love him.
SPEAKER_01And I know him.
SPEAKER_04And I know him.
SPEAKER_02I know him. He's a good hang. Yeah, he's faithful, he's orthodox. Like, I'm the I'll tell our church all the time. Other gospel preaching churches in our area are not our competition. They are our brothers and sisters. Wow. And that's another thing that you have to um, you can't just slap out on a website. That needs to be a part of the the sinew of the culture. Wow. And I think people people can tell, you know?
SPEAKER_04Wow. Um, you've mentioned at least three stories of someone telling you they're leaving your church. Are y'all okay? Okay. Do y'all need a um This is my third.
SPEAKER_06Do y'all need to like hey man? How many people are leaving? Who's staying?
SPEAKER_01Is anybody leaving too? I was hoping I could convince the GU to call out. Hey, baby, how long you're gonna be in town?
SPEAKER_04Anybody?
SPEAKER_06I'm gonna change my flight. He's a heretic. I'm gonna call I'm gonna find a couple of people. Hey, I need you to, we need we need seat fillers for the bridge church. Highways and byways, I'm gonna go. We'll fix it in post. I had a thought too. I was like, we need a we need like maybe 10 or 20, we need a true heretics to form a committee. So when somebody in the faith goes, hey, this person's a heretic, that goes, that submission goes to the and they would go me up. Ah no. And then you would go, you know what? The heretics, the real heretics cleared me. Cleared me of that host. They've already tested so you can appeal it. Show my score.
SPEAKER_02It's my 23andMe heretic rating. I uh did not qualify. That's amazing, man.
SPEAKER_04No, I have heard the opposite about your church. Uh I've heard that it's awesome. I've heard that people love going there. I've heard that it's been really, really, really a blessing to that community down there. I was uh before I got distracted with my stupid joke, I was gonna ask you, what would you say to someone who is on their way out? And maybe even more than that, like how does that make you feel as a pastor? Yeah, because again, we don't get to hear you respond to something. We hear, I left that church. I left that church. We don't hear to get the pastor say, hey man, I y'all need to know it's hard or great when you leave. I don't know. Yeah, I'm curious. I'm at this point you're both like I'm so sad you're leaving. Man, I wish you would stay long. Didn't serve, didn't tithe, didn't showed up two times a month. Can't sing, go on a solo, all those people. I'm sure you've had both, but someone leaving, give me your pastoral perspective on what that feels like for you first. That's what I'm most curious about.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, I mean, at the at the risk of sounding self-serving, I think at the very least, um it'd be helpful for people to know that it does actually sting. You know, I I uh a buddy of mine's a pastor in Colorado, and he was he was speaking to this recently, and he had this line, he just says, I've died a thousand deaths in this role. And I like I knew exactly what he was talking about. Like he loves it. He loves being a pastor, he's called to it, he loves this community, he loves it, he's like, but I've died a thousand deaths. I've had and what's tricky, man, is like there's I actually really appreciate even when it's when it's mean or harsh, the people like, I want to tell you why. Um but there's a whole other part of it that I think pastors will appreciate that sometimes you just learn through seeing someone in another church's social media feed, and you're like, oh, I guess they're over there now. They don't owe me anything, but you're like, oh man, we broke bread together, and I you just don't know. So that is that is a part of it. Uh you can't take it personally, you can't let it send you reeling. I really do think it's important that it it should sting a little bit, man. If you're like caring for a flock, regardless of the size, there should be some level of like, oh, I'm sincerely gonna miss you. I I sincerely think you brought like a really unique flavor to our community, or we or our kids are friends, or we played ball together, whatever it is. I do think sometimes people are genuinely surprised that the passer isn't just like upward and onward, too bad. Don't let the door hit you. It that's maybe some guys are, man. There's a there is a very real, but it's also important, I think, to to process it. You know, like I have trusted people like, man, can I tell you about a guy? I've had 47 coffees with this guy. Right. And he just goes me like, yeah, I don't I think I think you're too weak in this or too whatever, and like that does kind of sting, and there might even be some truth to that. So, like the you know, it's a kind of a trope when people are like, Oh, yeah, pastors are also people, they are. You know, and I and I but I also trust that the Holy Spirit, the same Holy Spirit that I believe is like drawing people to the bridge is drawing people to other churches. And so I'll like I celebrate that. I celebrate big sea church types of wins, like Big K Kingdom. Like that to me, I have to keep that perspective out in front. Otherwise, it could it's you know, yeah. Uh uh who said it, I Paul Harvey had this comment where he said, We were called to be fishers of men, but many of us have just become keepers of the aquarium. And I just think that's like such a really, you know, that was decades ago. Like, man, if I'm just like if I'm predisposed, disproportionate, only like keeping these people happy, yeah, then I think there's a lot of like mission that you're you're missing. So like I'm still new-ish to this church and I'm pretty different from the previous pastors. So when someone says, hey, no offense, you're just not my cup of tea, I'm like, I get it. I'm not my own cup of tea half the time. Like I and if you came for that, yeah, I have enough self-awareness to go, man, Lord bless you. Like, I totally I really do understand. And a lot of that I think comes from, again, like just a rootedness in who am I who I am in Christ and surrounding myself with people that will tell me the hard truth about myself, but also like, yo.
SPEAKER_04That's great. And how do you think? How long have you been pastor in the bridge?
SPEAKER_02Uh five years. Yeah. March of 21.
SPEAKER_04Okay, cool. Awesome.
SPEAKER_06I want to ask uh having been in ministry for a long time. Uh more so now with social media where we've seen the the the rises and the falls and all the things. I don't know about YouTube, but I have this whenever I see like a young minister, a young, a young talented Christian starting out in music or ministry, and they got a podcast and they're teaching. There is this, or my my wife and I, we're we're planting a church. We feel called, oh, we're doing missions. There there's a part of me that I would say the comedic, cynical part that I I don't tend to sell. I'm like, oh man, I've seen this movie before. This is a horror movie. Sorry for you. I've seen this before. But at the same time, I know that oh man, I was once a young. Of course. I'm sure people had to say yeah, I'm still young. But but what what what do you do with that? How do you believe the best in pastors and ministers and musicians when oh man, the track record right now is is kind of crazy.
SPEAKER_02Yeah.
SPEAKER_06You know, like I really do have to fight to just go like I no, I you know, I met that person or there were people around them, and they said great things. And I should however m many W's they collect and however many viral clips they have, I should be excited for them. I don't know. I don't know. Is that something you'll have wrestled with?
SPEAKER_02Oh, 100%, man. I I think I think believing the best is really noble. I think scripture also calls us to discern. And I I had a buddy, this is years ago now, but there was some sort of uh implosion of a young leader, and he had this phrase, he said, he said, yeah, his platform grew faster than his character. And I was like, that's it. Platform's not bad. I think the Lord can use platform in a lot of really beautiful ways. But if your platform goes faster than your character, it will it will crush you. And I, you know, we've chatted about this before. Like if I if I see one more 19-year-old Christian couple write a marriage book, I'm I'm gonna I'm gonna scream. I'm like, you know what, you you can't rent a car yet. Just uh just can't rent a car. That's fine. That's such an old man thing to say, you know.
SPEAKER_05You can't rent a car. The bedrock of marriage, you know, hurts rental. You land in Miami, what are you doing? Riding the bus? Are you riding the bus?
SPEAKER_02I'm just saying, I think that there's uh uh and honestly, a lot of times what what I'm trying to ask uh in my in my quiet time and my prayer time is Lord, what is mine to care about? You know, like I I have a family in a church. I could spend, we all could spend all day, every day obsessing about ever all these people that we may or may not ever actually meet. The there is a very real um tension that I feel now where I feel like many of us have an information surplus but an obedience deficit. Where meaning we have we have all we have access to every tragedy the world over. That's that's brand new in human history, and yet I'm not actually loving my neighbor.
SPEAKER_08Wow.
SPEAKER_02You know, I'm like obsessed about what's happening 6,000 miles away. I'm not I'm not saying that doesn't matter. Yeah, but I'm like, man, like the red letter stuff that I'm currently not doing. Yeah, like why am I spending more brain energy worrying about so and so in Austin? His platform is growing a little bit faster than I think it should be based on zero knowledge or data.
SPEAKER_08Come on.
SPEAKER_02And yet, there's a human uh I I spoke at a uh there's a class of uh pastoral undergrads, so so young guys, 19, 20, and my like icebreaker question was um, so what's the dream? Like what's the thing you feel like the Lord's laid on your heart? And this one kid goes, I don't care as long as it's something huge. And I was like, But it may maybe sweep some floors and stack some chairs first. You know what I mean? Like it Wow, it was so stark, and I was like, Oh, you don't even have no idea that's like seen as courageous, like yeah, man, do something huge.
SPEAKER_01I'm like, that's the zeal is noble though, like that's beautiful. Exactly. I actually wish I had a little bit of that.
SPEAKER_04You know what I'm saying? Like I've lost that's kind of been chipped away over the years. Uh-huh. So I admire the zeal. Yep. It reminds me of like what Paul told Timothy like the zeal is good.
SPEAKER_02Yeah.
SPEAKER_04But make sure you're a sound doctrine, make sure you're in community, make sure you have mentors and all that stuff. I hear that's what I hear you saying. It's like, yeah, go for it, but also you got your seatbelt on.
SPEAKER_02Yeah. I mean, that the uh don't quote me on this, but the the New Testament only says make it your ambition a couple of times, and I think it most frequently says, make it your ambition to live a quiet life. So when when Paul's laying out, like, here's what here's what you should be aiming for a life that looks more like Jesus. And it might be on a stage, but it also might be like faithfully loving your family in your neighborhood. And I and I I do wonder sometimes if we've we have equated platform with success, meaning if there isn't platform, you must be failing. Eugene Peterson had a lot, a lot to say about that. And I I just think that there's I'm with you, by the way, just to say it out loud. I do feel some of that concern. And then also like, why am I wasting why am I concerned? Why do I I'm I'm already not sleeping?
SPEAKER_06Like, you know, but then when it happens, you're like, I and then the you know, the comments are you like, oh yeah, but then it's like it's not I'm not in control. God's in control. Yeah, right. You know, I'm like, I think what I why'd you let that happen? I'm you know, I'm frustrated at him.
SPEAKER_04Yeah, yeah. I think I think the big lesson I've been learning is that no one is worthy to be exalted except Jesus. And I am I am an idol factory, I think. Um who is that from? Luther, yeah. Yeah, yeah. It's like I I I want to exalt you. You're a cool dude. I want to come to your church and listen you to preach this Sunday, and I'm prone to be like, I just found a great pastor, but you're not Jesus. And I I listen to your videos, but I found a Christian comedian that's funny, he loves the Lord, loves his wife, loves his kids, he's awesome. He's not Jesus. Yeah. And I've had to practice the more I I honor someone and celebrate them, there's a crossover to idolizing them. And it's okay to be excited about your pastor, or excited about your friend doing great things, or excited about the 20-year-old doing their thing, but Jesus is the only one that we can keep looking on and exalting forever, and he never falls under the pressure. And I just think we've we've our expectation of people has become too high. Yeah. And we we ask them to be something they can't.
SPEAKER_02Well, that's a uh my buddy was talking recently about cynicism, and he and he and uh is of the same kind of wiring. It's very easy to like, this is all terrible, this is not gonna end well. And he had this line, he said, Cynicism is self-fulfilling scarcity. That's really at the core of what concerns me. Is like it's not, oh, is Shama right or wrong about this prediction about this young leader? It's oh man, what is that doing to your own heart? By continuing to hold on to either bitterness or cynicism, or that's that's malforming us in ways that we can't even totally see. It's like if if your phone is the first thing you look at every morning and the last thing you look at every night, that is slowly forming you over time. It's a formation device, whether you like to admit it or not. And I think things like a posture towards cynicism or a posture towards that's not gonna end well. Yeah, uh, you might be right, and you'll feel justified.
SPEAKER_08Yeah.
SPEAKER_02That's that's I think doing something to the to our heart that is actually not ultimately doesn't look like Jesus. Yeah. And that's the thing that I want to I wanna be mindful of, you know.
SPEAKER_04Well, I I can tell that you have some formation rhythms and following after Jesus, that's working well. Oh, thank you, man. You can see that in in the few minutes you spent time with us. I've been inspired by your knowledge of the word, but honestly, your humility. And I mean to see a pastor with as much influence and spiritual authority as you have to come talk to us here, and just to be open with your story, man. Uh, we've been playing these games with all of our guests based on where they're from and what kind of church they grew up in. But Shaman grew up playing a game called Sword Drill. Yeah, we call it Bible Bowl. Basically, is where we hand you a Bible. Shaman, can you pass out the uh the fresh Bibles? Thank you.
SPEAKER_02Those are fresh.
SPEAKER_04Just to be specific, we believe in the King James Version. I don't know what you preach at your church, Pastor Ian, but I sure hope you preach the unadulterated word because the vows. I need these. Because it only works if it's King James. The game is our reader friend, uh Sister Hannah over there, is gonna call the the book chapter and verse of a scripture. No boy. The first person to find it in the Bible wins the round.
SPEAKER_02I'm gonna embarrass myself for sure.
SPEAKER_04Well, uh, we're not gonna have mercy on you. I appreciate that.
SPEAKER_02I could read that. Yeah.
SPEAKER_04But I just always wanted to be the pastor. I think that's always been my. Is that why I'm here?
SPEAKER_02It's the whole reason I'm here.
SPEAKER_04Because really, after after we win, that's gonna be the end of the episode. Who's the pastor that's easiest to dunk on? Yes. But because you're a pastor, let's let's add a little thing to this game. Great. When we find the scripture, we one of us has to connect it to Jesus. No matter where it is. Okay. So, New Testament, Old Testament, prophet, Psalm, whatever. We have to find a way. Basically, we call that game that'll preach. You know what I mean? Like, someone handed you the scripture. How would you preach that script? Okay. Are we ready? Yeah.
SPEAKER_03Counting down from three, you're finding Lamentations for two and three, two, one.
SPEAKER_02Oh, sorry, I missed the countdown. Oh no, I'm going the wrong way. Oh no.
SPEAKER_00Oh my god, I got it. Oh boy. I'm a little too quiet.
SPEAKER_03Four-two. Lamentations for two.
SPEAKER_06The precious sons of Zion. The precious sons of Zion comparable to fine gold. How are they esteemed as earthen pitchers? The work of the hands of the potter. You read that good, too. Yeah, that was bad. Read that one more time so we can we can break the book. The precious sons of Zion comparable to fine gold. How are they esteemed as earthen pitchers? The work of the hands of the potter.
SPEAKER_01Pastor, you gotta wear it. Come on, preach. See, I end up.
SPEAKER_06Hold on, let me give you the context. I mean, you've seen the context.
SPEAKER_01I ended up in Maccabees somehow. Oh that's the wrong version.
SPEAKER_02You were never gonna get that. Is this the Matt Mar episode?
SPEAKER_04Yeah, this is the wrong, wrong episode. That's a different Bible. That's funny. That's funny. Anybody got something they want to say about that?
SPEAKER_06Come on, here's the context. I mean, you got it.
SPEAKER_04I mean, the things the things that the precious stones of the precious sons of Zion got it.
SPEAKER_06I never heard that for a while.
SPEAKER_04What stuck out to me was the Potter's thing. What was the last Potter's thing you said?
SPEAKER_06Oh, you got you got me. I'm your reader now. Yes, yes, yes. Read. How are they esteemed as earthen pitchers the work of the hands of the Potter? I mean, that's it.
SPEAKER_04Come on, somebody.
SPEAKER_02That's over the place. That speaks for itself, really. Yeah. Do we even have to preach the potter?
SPEAKER_04Next scripture. That's somebody that don't know and don't want to do it either. We're about to get flat.
SPEAKER_06No, but for real, let that word minister to you. Let the marinade. Let it do that to you. Your work. I don't want to interfere.
SPEAKER_02I feel like that's what you do when someone asks you to pray for them, but you can't remember their name. Yeah. And you're like, ah, my brother. God.
SPEAKER_04God, you know what they mean. Just keep saying. I don't know them. I mean, but for those who don't know, how will we get there? Just real quick. The sons of the potter, man. Come on. I mean, is that what it is?
SPEAKER_06The sons of Zion, yeah. Yeah. How precious are they? Yeah, yeah. I don't know. Never heard the term the sons of Zion before. And I feel like that will preach.
SPEAKER_08Yeah.
SPEAKER_06If somebody hasn't preached it already.
unknownI don't know.
SPEAKER_02I feel like you look right at me here. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Wake, wake. As a pottery enthusiast, let me tell you what's really going on here. That is sort of the preacher trope, though. Like, you read this, let me tell you what this really means. I'm like, well, that's not helpful for the rest of us that don't read Hebrew or Greek. We we're clay in the hands of the good potter. That's right. Right? That is it's a it's a passage of formation. Yes. We recognize that man ultimately we're not on the throne. That's good news for all of us, right? There is a potter, and we're merely meant to be vessels. I think that's a Paul Paul would also agree with that, right? That's what he would.
SPEAKER_04This guy's good. I think he's a pastor at a church.
SPEAKER_02No black square, but what do you get? Okay.
SPEAKER_01That's awesome, man. That's really true and good. I'm actually encouraged. Can I tell you something about that though? When when the Apostle Paul talks about it, yes.
SPEAKER_02Uh he talks about uh us being jars of clay that uh in the first century those were often used as uh lanterns. And one commentator was saying that the the thinner the pot, the more the light shines through. Like the but this is in the the section where Paul is talking about he's not just okay with his weaknesses, he like boasts in his weaknesses, which I've not gotten there yet. I'm like barely at the point where my closest friends can see you know some of the stuff that I really struggle with. Paul's like, I'll brag about it. And part of the imagery is like, man, the thinner the pot, the more the light shines through. I just think that that to me is a good that's a good reminder for you know those of us who you know were raised up in sort of an image management kind of version of Christianity.
SPEAKER_04It's offering time. So at this point in the service, we just passed the book. Anyone wants to accept Jesus today? You want him into your life, open your heart and receive him. The service and the service is over, bro.
SPEAKER_02Can we add some haze and post because we have a cable? Is that is that an option? Just to make sure the spirit is moving.
SPEAKER_01Get a little shekinah right here.
SPEAKER_07Shekinah, what do you think about Shekinah?
SPEAKER_01Pastor, that was incredible. Oh, that's much too kind. Wait, white church has shekinah? Oh no, I read it in a book somewhere. They got Shekinah glory over there. Yeah, yeah. I mean, I grew up outside Detroit.
SPEAKER_04I mean, there's that's amazing, man. That's so good. Okay, I'm ready for another one just so I can hear another sermon. Oh, jeez. Uh Sister Hannah.
SPEAKER_03You're looking for Romans eight twenty eight in three, two, one.
SPEAKER_02Write two Romans.
SPEAKER_05Oh, yeah. Come on. Yep, yep, yep, yep. Bravo pastor. Oh, it's okay. You can read it though. Hopefully, this Roses are. Write to Romans?
SPEAKER_01It's a brand new Bible, man. It's not even your Bible. Am I Pentecostal now? That's all it took for me. Man. Whoa.
SPEAKER_02Tell us your testimony. Well, one day she said Romans, and I opened to Romans. Whoa. That's all she's that's all she wrote. Do we want it? Yes.
SPEAKER_06828.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, I don't think I can read it the way that you read it, though, man. All right.
SPEAKER_04Come on. We got your back. We got your back.
SPEAKER_02And we know.
SPEAKER_04Yes, sir.
SPEAKER_02We don't think.
SPEAKER_04Yes, sir.
SPEAKER_02We know that all things, not some things, all things work together for good. To them that love God, to them who are the called according to his purpose.
SPEAKER_04Beautiful.
SPEAKER_02I think I added an extra thing there somewhere. I got nervous because I realized it was King James.
SPEAKER_04Come on now. Come on now. I was like, I was like, we know. Omit needless words. We don't think. Hey. That's a that's a soft pitch, bro.
SPEAKER_06Yeah.
SPEAKER_04Come on, you preach. Take us to church. Come on, now. Come on, man.
SPEAKER_06S you all know. For we know. Read the first part again.
SPEAKER_04We know.
SPEAKER_02And we know.
SPEAKER_06We know.
SPEAKER_02Yes. Come on. That all things work together for good. Not some things that love God.
SPEAKER_06That love God. Come on now. So if you don't love God, if you love God, all things are going to work together. Some of y'all don't love God. Some of y'all think y'all. Why is he being disrespectful to him? That took a turn. Oh, I can't. I can't preach down.
SPEAKER_04I was hoping you'll be encouraging. Oh, yeah. We work for bridge films.
SPEAKER_06All things do work together, man. That is a I don't even preach like that if I would, but uh, yeah, that's encouraging. That's encouraging to people who who things aren't working out right now. Come on. That's that's true. All right. All right. When things aren't working out right now, it's good to be reminded that hey, this also is encompassed in the all.
SPEAKER_04That's right.
SPEAKER_06In the all things that work together.
SPEAKER_04So yeah, yeah. Well done.
SPEAKER_06Yeah, come on. That was great. Praise God for that.
SPEAKER_04I mean, that's a that's a hobby lobby scripture, man. That's like you have that in your bathroom. Don't know why. You have it in your towel. Don't know why. Um got on your mug. I get that. Because you know, starting your day, you want a scripture. But you did good, man. You did good. I heard someone say recently in the class that Romans was written to Romans. Okay. That's all I'm gonna say. Um what class was this? It's a very uh low-level, entry-level theology class.
SPEAKER_02See, in my in my bathroom, I have the uh uh do not cook a young goat in his mother's milk. That's what I like that. Just but old goats are funny. It's yeah, exactly.
SPEAKER_06Okay, I was working my way through through the first part of the Bible this year, and I'm like, what is what was what were they doing? Why did God have to be like, hey, y'all gotta stop cooking goats in mother's milk? That's repeated like three or four times. Repeated four. It was clearly a problem. What are these guys? Oh, they didn't have a goat.
SPEAKER_02They didn't and writing writing stuff was hard. Like, this is worth the real estate. Yeah, tell them I'm gonna do that. Tell them the goat thing. The goat thing has gotta be.
SPEAKER_04I mean, milk kind of reminds me of like curry, though. I mean, I kind of were they were like coconut milk, right? Yeah. Am I making something?
SPEAKER_06Was God like I'm I'm tired of the goat curry. You're on to a point, though. That's a good point. You know what I'm saying? Like, that's not a bad thing it's curry a sin.
SPEAKER_01He's like, give Pad Thai a shot. Guys, venture out a little bit.
SPEAKER_04That's really funny. No pig, no shrimp, no curry. Old Testament summary. Okay, I got Steph Curry's all right.
SPEAKER_06Steph Curry, guys, we're allowed to rewriting the Torah. Okay, real quick. Uh, we I know we have to do one more round, but what as a pastor, what are we supposed to do with verses that have gotten way too mainstream? Like where they're on towels and mugs and you know what I mean? You read it now and you're like, oh yeah, yeah, yeah. That's a great question.
SPEAKER_02Go to his purpose, you know. I've actually recently changed my opinion on this because I used to be the like, that's not what that verse means. Like, read the context, which I I still am. I'm a teacher of the Bible. I think it's why good teaching matters, it's why reading in community matters. I think in my old age, man, also though, if in this crazy world that one out of verse context from Philippians gives you a little bit of hope in this season, I'm not gonna die on that hill. I am still gonna teach. Like we just you know walked through Philippians. I was like, hey, here's that verse that everyone always says before the big game. That's not what this verse means. I have a responsibility as a teacher and a preacher. But I also think, man, I I don't know, my like angsty, you know, 24-year-old self who just started preaching, like needed to die on every hill, make sure everyone knows that verse on your shirt is incorrect, that's out of context. That guy's annoying. He's you know, he's hard to be around. So, like, it's a it's a finely threaded needle. There are a few things though, there's a few verses that every once in a while when I when I see them is like is muscle memory. You're like where two or more are gathered, you're like, it's about conflict. Yeah, not a it's not a call to worship, that's a different, it's about conflict. Ah, that's right.
SPEAKER_08So, what would this be?
SPEAKER_04Well, Romans 8 28, one of the most popular. How would you frame this up so people won't do what they should not do?
SPEAKER_02Well, we so we did a uh a series a couple years ago about some of these phrases, and one of the ones that that does really bother me, it's often said by well-meaning people when someone is facing a really hard season and they'll say something like, Everything happens for a reason. You you got diagnosed with cancer, you lost a kid, you you're facing some real hardship, and someone and typically I really do think they're well-meaning, and they often don't know what to do with your suffering. They don't know how to sit with people in their pain. And I think that's the that's the bigger issue. So we'll we'll often kind of like extract some out of context first in an attempt often to make ourselves feel better about the season you're walking in. I think we need a much deeper, more robust theology of suffering and pain. I meet people all the time who handed a version of Christianity that say, hey, just pray this prayer and your whole life becomes a walk in the park. And they're like, Yeah, Jurassic Park. Like everything's gotten harder. Like everything's so either you lied to me or God's gypped me. Wow. And I I just I feel like there's a lot of uh people, maybe even around our age, they're like unraveling some of those things while still kind of holding on to the essence. So that is that's the kind of stuff that in in pastoral minutes. It's why I love being a a pastor. Like I can I can hang in the scholarly spaces for like a couple of minutes, but at the end of the day, I want to I want to be with people, like like real life stories and difficulties and celebrations and all that. And that that's where a lot of these these verses, uh for me at least, you know, start to really come alive.
SPEAKER_04We've talked about that before on the show, that a lot of people have faced disappointments in their lives that don't match the childhood version of Christianity they were handed.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, totally.
SPEAKER_04Maybe because of this verse in particular, it's like I don't, like you mentioned, I don't see things working out good at all. Not just for me, like that's right, even outside of me, like wars and pestilence and COVID and gas prices, whatever. It's like this don't seem to be doing it. And I I I appreciate your perspective because I feel like a lot of people, when they read those verses, they're looking for is it actually true? Or is there something else that's deeper and true that I missed when I read this when I was five? Totally. Um so help us with 828. Uh obviously, people know the general, like God's gonna work things out, but how would you frame this for someone who maybe has used this verse or has been used in their life in a way that wasn't helpful?
SPEAKER_02How would you reframe Romans or magic? That's a great question. There's uh one of my favorite preachers is a guy named Frederick Biegner, who he just uh he writes sermons like poetry, and I feel like that's a that's a thing I just don't I don't see as much anymore. And he had this this statement, I'm gonna butcher it, but he said something like if the resurrection is true, then the worst thing is never the last thing. And I just think that's like whatever your faith, like exactly to what you're saying, like I don't see anything working out right now. You're like, man, this side of the grave, it actually might not the way that we think it is, but if he actually walked out of the grave, if that I'm hanging all my hat, I'm hanging my hat on that on that reality, then the worst thing is never the last thing. That suffering, that pain, evil, sin, and death does not get the final word no matter what we face, this side of eternity. And I think, you know, that to me is is so much of what Paul has written elsewhere. He's like, Man, I I don't even consider these sufferings worth comparing. I I know we're at that doesn't mean that he spiritually bypasses them. You know, I think that's also been used in a lot of really um right I you know, I would call it spiritual malpractice. Like, hey man, I know that you're facing this incredible hardship, but the joy of the Lord is your strength. You're like, yeah, but he also says he's near the brokenhearted. So it we don't have to jump right to sometimes people are like in a good Friday season and we just try to jump right to Easter. Yeah, man. I don't know that that's always the most faithful treatment of a text, but it does mean if the resurrection is true and if we've surrendered to entrusted in Jesus, then the worst thing is never the last thing. And I think that's a really that's a helpful thing for me to hold on to.
SPEAKER_04That's sermon number two. We got a two for one today. All right. I'm gonna pay my tithes today. I don't know if it's gonna pay my tithes last week, but today's good for this is good even just for my like the flash.
SPEAKER_02You're like the flash. He's like the least loved superhero.
SPEAKER_06He's like the I know I'm not, you know. I was trying to think through. Mainly because your speed. Yeah, it's I think we got one more, though. Do we have one more? We have one more. Let's do one more scripture. This is a easier turn. I mean, I got a point. Pastor's got a point.
SPEAKER_04Sister Hannah, give us give us one I can find. No. No, this is revealing. I need to study my Bible. Okay, go for it.
SPEAKER_03Isaiah 41, 10 in 3, 2, 1.
SPEAKER_06From Dr. Isaiah. Oh. No, I got it. I turned to it. Fear thou not, for I am with thee. Be not dismayed, for I am thy God. I will strengthen thee. Yea, I will uphold thee. Yea, I will uphold thee with the right hand of my righteousness. Read it again. Fear thou not, for I am with thee. Be not dismayed, for I am thy God. Come on, come on.
SPEAKER_05I will strengthen thee.
SPEAKER_04Yo, yo, yeah. He Pentecostal drinking.
SPEAKER_05He's going, shout! I will strengthen thee, yay. I will uphold thee.
SPEAKER_06Yay, I will uphold thee with the right hand of my righteousness. That's a lot. You made it through. Yeah. I got there, guys. I got there fast. Did you know that ahead of time? Uh no, I didn't know that.
unknownNo.
SPEAKER_04I mean, that might have been that. That might have been the fastest we've done this week. Who's the flash in the timer?
SPEAKER_06We're gonna start timing these in post. Can we do that? Just like a little timer on the corner. Good.
SPEAKER_04We should. Because I thought you had the best moment. Nah, nah, not me.
SPEAKER_05Now me.
SPEAKER_04Put your time on the board on the church. And he got this, he got the Holy Ghost. He almost broke our whole step. Sorry, you can send me an invoice. My bad. Well done, Shaman. So you're not just a comedian. You actually love the Lord. I'm in the actual. You actually love the Lord.
SPEAKER_06It's a wild comedy.
SPEAKER_01Actually, it's a good idea.
SPEAKER_06I'm surprised because you like the show. I like for it to sneak up on people. I'm not one of these egotistical. I'm humble about my humble about my I'm not gonna be out here like, hey, I can beat anybody in sword drill. And here we go. Yeah. That's not good.
SPEAKER_02Wow. Welcome to the Laugh Factory. Real quick.
SPEAKER_06Real quick.
SPEAKER_02Is anybody to have a KJV Bible on them?
SPEAKER_06A brand new one never used. Anyone have a little bit more? Competition. Bring his own Bible to this set. Anyone just say a book chapter verse, real quick.
SPEAKER_04Just just I am I am very inspired, Shamma. Thanks, man. Pastor Shamma. Thank you. Thank you. Now, can you can you um exegete and give us a hermunic of uh watch me?
SPEAKER_06I cannot be able to find it. Like where is Isaiah? Uh fear thou not, for I am with thee. Be not dismayed, for I am my God. I will strengthen thee. Yea, I will uphold I will uphold thee. I will sorry, I will help thee. Yea, I will uphold thee with the right hand of my righteousness. Come on, Pastor, you got this? Come on, Pastor.
SPEAKER_02I will say this. Okay. So it's kind of where what verse are we at?
SPEAKER_064110, right?
unknownI think right there.
SPEAKER_024110. You know what's interesting? So this this part is kind of memeified. People say, and it's allegedly, I think it's harder to prove, but there's uh the Bible says fear not 365 times in the Bible. If you heard that, yeah. One for every day of the week.
SPEAKER_06Yes. I love those Bible statistics.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, that just yeah, just says Chat GBT in the bottom. You're like, I might want to run that through a fact checker. But what I think is really interesting, it doesn't get talked about enough, is that more often than not, the command to fear not is almost always followed by some version of for I am with you. It's the it's the presence piece that this verse talks about. It's the Great Commission, right? Where he talks about all authority is mine, and then he tells him to go make disciples all that.
SPEAKER_08Yep.
SPEAKER_02And then he says, I will be with you always. So like this I this fear not is not just like, hey, stop being afraid, dum dum.
SPEAKER_08Right.
SPEAKER_02It's not even just don't be afraid because fear is stupid. It's like you actually don't have ultimately anything to fear because I'm with you. I think when you when you lose that part of it, it just seems like this really cold command to stop being afraid, yeah. Like yelling at a little kid, like, oh, it's just thunder. You're like, yeah, but he's six.
SPEAKER_07Yeah.
SPEAKER_02He's be with him. Like spend, you know, be with your kid. Yeah. That's that's more often than not the promise.
unknownBeautiful, yeah.
SPEAKER_02Coupled with fear not.
SPEAKER_04Beautiful.
SPEAKER_02Thank you. Bro, it's truly been a joy. I'm like honored. I thought you sent the email to me on accident.
SPEAKER_04Yeah.
SPEAKER_02I was like, surely they're looking for someone better than this.
SPEAKER_04And shout out to the bridge. Y'all got a good one, man. You want me to support your pastor, pay your tithes and your offerings, send them on a sabbatical. What else do you want?
SPEAKER_06You were gonna say Disney World. Uh send the Disney World. I was gonna say I I really hate to do this right now. Do it. But I've only been to the bridge once, but I need to let you know that I have to leave. I I cannot be in pastor. If you can tell me all the details, you're not gonna be my pastor anymore. After much consideration, after my one visit past day in October, Dr. Lyme. You can't go on October. Everyone knows October. I have I've got to go to a different I found a new shepherd.
SPEAKER_04It took you this long to decide. You gotta be back in. I haven't been back.
SPEAKER_02I want to let you know. I'm done. We really were uh mulling it over for a minute. I don't think you're a heretic. I just wanted to tell you your face. I appreciate it, you know, on mic, on camera. Yeah, yeah. You triggered him, man.
SPEAKER_04Why'd you do that to him? No kidding. Man, God bless you. God bless your family in this church, man. So glad you're here. Thank y'all for watching. Um, we could check out all of any resources you have. Anything going on you want to share?
SPEAKER_02Oh man, I'm just I'm I'm pastor in this great church. I got a uh a book coming out in September. Sweet. Yeah, man.
SPEAKER_04Do you know the name of the book yet?
SPEAKER_02Yeah, it's called Every Table and Altar.
SPEAKER_04Oh, awesome. Yeah. Awesome. That's great. Well, we'll definitely put that down when it's out so you guys can check it out. Um visit the bridge church when you can. Check out some new episodes coming from grown-up church kids. Um, we end the episode by saying just a little thing. I say God is good, and y'all say all the time. Oh man, I'm here for that. Yeah, and then I say all the time. God is good. Okay, so we'll do it with them. Y'all do it too. God is good. All the time. And all the time. God is good. All right, love y'all. God bless.