God Used a Muslim to Save Us And It Changed My Faith Forever Artwork

Grown-Up Church Kids

Grown-Up Church Kids is a podcast for anyone who grew up in church and is still figuring out what to do with it.

Hosted by Dwan Hill and Shama Mrema, the show blends honest conversation, humor, music, and storytelling as they unpack faith, culture, and the realities of growing up in and around the church. From choir stands to church politics, from deep belief to hard questions, nothing is off limits.

It’s real, it’s reflective, and it’s for anyone who’s ever asked:

What do I keep, what do I let go of, and where is God in all of it now?

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Grown-Up Church Kids

God Used a Muslim to Save Us And It Changed My Faith Forever

April 26, 2026 • Dwan Hill

0:00 | 1:13:38

What happens when you grow up in church but realize you don’t actually know Jesus? This episode of Grown Up Church Kids explores church hurt, faith journey, and the difference between religion and a real relationship with God. From surviving religious persecution in Nigeria to navigating American church culture, this conversation dives into spiritual burnout, authentic Christianity, and what it really means to follow Jesus beyond routines and inherited beliefs.

We talk about growing up in church, losing faith in ministry, and rediscovering God through personal encounter—not performance. If you’ve experienced church trauma, questioned your faith, or felt disconnected from Christianity, this episode will resonate. You’ll hear powerful Christian testimony, honest conversations about doubt, and insight into how different cultures experience faith, worship, and Jesus. This is about moving from knowing about God to actually knowing Him—and why that changes everything.

ABOUT THE SHOW:

Grown Up Church Kids is more than a show, it’s a full-circle moment where Sunday Morning Meets Real Life. Bringing together community, conversations, shared stories, and songs that shaped a generation, this is a space for Grown-Up Church Kids to reconnect with their roots, redefine their journeys, and celebrate the faith together.

There are more of us than you think.

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00:00 “Come As You Are”… But Never Change?

02:07 Welcome to Church Kid Reality

04:00 Church Culture vs Real Faith

07:22 Why Worship Feels Different Now

10:02 Faith That Could Cost Your Life

13:21 The Power of Simple Kindness

16:00 “I Knew About God… Not God”

19:02 When Faith Becomes Personal

22:04 When Ministry Breaks Your Faith

25:02 When Church Doesn’t Hold Up

30:59 The Problem With American Christianity

33:10 What Other Cultures Get Right

36:04 Using God vs Actually Knowing Him

41:02 Comfort Is Killing Hunger for God

46:04 What Church Was Supposed To Be

49:16 Finishing Faith Well

54:42 Real Worship vs Performance

58:07 Why Authenticity Hits Harder

01:02:26 Why Imperfection Connects

01:05:07 Bible Bowl (But Make It Competitive)

01:12:35 Final Thoughts + What Faith Looks Like Now

More from The Choir Room

YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/@thechoirroom

Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/the.choirroom/?hl=en

Website: https://www.choirisback.com/

CREDITS:

Director & Editor: Kyle Whittaker

Producer: Hannah Gifford (Open Hand Management)

Production Assistants: Sarah Bush, Abby Loomis

Audio: Garrett Miller, Aaron Rochotte

Video: Seth Scruggs

Video, Photo & Social: Jordan Rubino

Management: Annie Cunningham

#grownupchurchkids #dwanhill #shamamrema #calledout #thechoirroom #faithjourney #churchkid

SPEAKER_02 0:00

It transforms you. And this is like at every level that you meet Jesus, you don't stay the same. Come as you are, don't remain the way you are. And like it's a been it's been a thing in like church. You guys probably know it's an American church. Yeah. Come as you are, come as you are, come as you are. And oftentimes come as you are ends up being stay as you are, but just keep coming here as you are. So we can say we have more people as they are. I have to do that one.

SPEAKER_04 0:26

You just call out the whole American child. No, no, you can do that. You have the right to do that. You're new here.

SPEAKER_02 0:32

Part of my story is being saved from uh Muslim extremists and being on a cusp of death. And when I say cusp of death, people think, oh, it's like figurative. No, like we were we were chased, like we were chased down. So my parents, my earliest core memories of my parents is being crusade preachers in the north of Nigeria, which there's a whole thing about Sharia wars and stuff like that. So the Muslims, there was a huge uprising, and then they went for a lot of Christians, and then my parents being very well-known crusade preachers were obviously targeted, and yeah, we were actually funny stories saved by something that I found quite interesting. My dad, the next door neighbor was a Muslim like priest, like Imam they called him. And I'll just know every morning my dad would just be like, Hey morning, how you doing?

SPEAKER_01 1:20

How's your day? Hey morning, how you doing? How's your day?

SPEAKER_02 1:23

That's it. And then he was the dude that came out and stepped out and said, if you're gonna kill this family, you're gonna have to kill me first.

SPEAKER_04 2:09

I'm here with my friend Shama, and uh it's been so fun hanging out talking about growing up in church. I am so, I mean, kind of shocked that there's so many of us. There are so many people who have grown up going to church, who grown up having parents who are pastors or worship leaders or people who went to church campus kids. We're everywhere. Yeah. And it's just really fun to hear so many common stories that you're sharing, learning more about you and your background and uh some of the guests on our show. It's just been really great. We have some special guests today. We got some music coming. It's gonna be a really, really fun time. But like every church service, we gotta start with church announcements. Well, technically it's like prayer, praise and worship. We had testimony service. But now they've kind of taken out the whole testimony service, which I don't know if that was because it was some good entertainment. Yeah. Like you come to church and get a real good Netflix show if you let people. Anyway, so we would have prayer, we have testimony service, and then we have church announcements, which there's always something going on in church. There's always something you can be doing. And we have announcements here at Grown Up Church Kids. The first one I want to tell you about is a choir room experience. Now, if you never had or experienced choir room, you gotta come. That's where I met Shama in our Atlanta choir room. And it's basically a place where people gather and they sing great gospel, worship, Christian songs. Um, anyone can come. We believe everyone has a voice and choir's back, and you can come to Nashville and hang out with us for our fourth anniversary. And so I invite you to come. It's gonna be a lot of a lot of fun. Information is down in the description. This is our choir rehearsal for the grown-up church kids. You know, it's gonna be really, really great. So come check that out. And also, we're having a live podcast recording uh coming up very soon, and that's gonna be fun because a lot of our guests are coming back. Uh we'll get to hang out live with you. Um I'm sure we'll have a lot of great fun there. So come check out um our live podcast there. So that's our church announcements. How did you get to Tanzania?

SPEAKER_06 3:59

You said where? Tanzania. Tanzania. How did you get there from the United States? So I was born in Tanzania, okay. Moved to the States when I was two years old with my family, and then moved back when I was 11. Because my parents became missionaries. Wow. And so that's what took us back. So uh uh my parents always knew they were like, hey, we're we're gonna live in America, but we're also not gonna live forever here. Like we're gonna move back to Africa. Got it, got it. So I had this intense like Bible Belt church upbringing. Wow. And then had to learn like an East African church upbringing, too. Wow. So that was really, really fun.

SPEAKER_04 4:27

And so yeah, the services in Africa were a lot like or a lot different than the services in America.

SPEAKER_05 4:36

They were different, man. Tanzania, well, an African General Man service, they dance.

SPEAKER_04 4:42

Come on, man. I want to go to that church. They dance. People would get like beat ones?

unknown 4:47

Oh, yeah.

SPEAKER_06 4:48

Really? Sweaty. I mean, just you get pit stained. Really? Just the wet like the worship team would be drenched. Wow. Yeah, yeah. We do the train insurance. Wow, that's not like a party. It was fun. It was fun.

SPEAKER_04 5:01

Why do you why do you think that's such a big thing? There versus here.

SPEAKER_06 5:05

I don't know, man.

SPEAKER_04 5:06

There's something about the joy.

SPEAKER_06 5:09

It's just joyful. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. I think that's the culture is just expressive already. Yeah. That it's not seen as cringe to I don't know what happened to us here. Yeah, I don't know. It's like you move too much and you're like, what's going on? Yeah, I know, I know, I know. Like if I went to church and I saw somebody it's like, you know, I don't know if you have a church where one person's like really emotive. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_03 5:30

You're like, oh, that's nice.

SPEAKER_06 5:31

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_04 5:34

That's good for you.

SPEAKER_03 5:35

I don't know, man.

SPEAKER_04 5:36

It does seem weird that probably most people here did not grow up in a church that danced on a regular basis. Yeah. If it was a special occasion, maybe, but I just feel like I feel like if someone came, if I had no experience in church, and someone came to me and said, hey, we like to dance at church, that'd be like, well, I want to come visit. Yeah. If they said, no, we kind of just sit there and look at each other the whole time and be like, I'm good. Hey, don't talk about my Baptist church like that. I'm just saying. Yeah, yeah. I'm just saying. Like when you think about church, you think about a lot of Baptist churches, you think like, it doesn't really sound very fun. No, no.

SPEAKER_06 6:12

But I think the the most people who I don't know, maybe it's just our comfort level here in the, you know, first world country. You know, like, yeah, God's good. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. It seems good to me. Yeah. But other people just really grab hold of the goodness of God and the joy of the Lord that they're like, I gotta move, I gotta dance.

SPEAKER_04 6:33

I gotta do the music sound. Like, what are we doing? Yeah, man. Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 6:36

The classic praise and worship leader statement is if you can praise God at the football game, if you can lift your hands at the football game, you need to praise God in here. Praise God in here today.

SPEAKER_04 6:50

And that's how you guilt people into praising God.

SPEAKER_06 6:54

But it's kind of true though. But this thing, other countries and other cultures, like I went to uh I went to uh Guatemala. No, no, no, I went to Honduras. That's how they move too. Like when you it would not be insulting to go, hey, I know you were singing and yelling at the football game. No, they're like, no, we're singing and yelling everywhere. Like we're gonna be. When we're excited, we emote, like we show it. Wow.

SPEAKER_04 7:14

Yeah. I just I do think it's kind of weird that you can go to a football game or a birthday party or a graduation party and people are like going wild. Yeah. And then the next day, they're just kind of like somber. And that might just be, you know, we're talking about being grown-up church kids. I think we were things were put in us as kids, like behave in church, like be in awe of God's presence, don't disrespect the house. Like, I think all that stuff is great. But I do wonder if that maybe crossed over to like sometimes being in awe of God is laughing.

SPEAKER_06 7:45

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 7:45

And like dancing. But I'm excited for this episode today because it sounds like there's like this international theme. You grew up going to church in America and Africa, and our guest today has that as well. So really excited to get into that. Hey, thank you all for watching. This is gonna be a great episode. We got some great music, more conversation. Um, make sure you like and subscribe so you can keep up with all the new videos coming up. Let's keep moving.

SPEAKER_06 8:08

Welcome to the video announcements. If you're a first, second, or third time visitor, welcome. If you visited for a fourth, fifth, sixth time, also welcome. But we really want to prioritize welcoming first, second, or third time visitors. We have a gift for you, but we need you to go to grown upchurchkids.com and fill out a connect card. Once you fill that out, we will give you a gift. Everybody loves gifts, especially free gifts.

SPEAKER_03 8:35

Free stuff!

SPEAKER_06 8:36

Can I hear you say free stuff? Free stuff. I actually cannot really hear you. This is a recording, but I really hope that you participate. Grown Up Church Kids is a community, and we want you to be involved. And we have so many great things going on that we want you to participate in. So please go to the website. I really do mean that. Go to the website, fill out a connect card because we want to get to know you. Thanks for joining us today. Sorry we had to halt the great show to give you this announcement. But we have to do this. Goodbye.

SPEAKER_04 9:13

One of the best things about the Grown Up Church Kids show is that we get to bring our friends on and talk about all the things growing up in church. And today we have one of my newest friends I got to meet through mutual friends, is um an incredible artist, incredible singer, who also grew up in church, but not in the United States. I was joking earlier, it feels like this is like an international food market because you grew up going to church in America and Tanzania, which is crazy. Want to hear more about that? And our guest today, our guest speaker. You know, a good church service has to have a guest speaker. They get the orange juice, they get the parking space, they get the front row seat. And this guy deserves all of that. I'm gonna call him Apostle. Apostle Samuel. Y'all give it up for Apostle Samuel. Let's go! What's up, man?

SPEAKER_02 9:58

What's up, G? How you doing? Welcome to the show. Yes, sir.

SPEAKER_04 10:01

Good to be here. Glad you're here. I'm curious to know your story because it sounds like you grew up in a church that did a lot of in Tanzania, Memphis, Tennessee, Nigeria, Kaduna, Nigeria.

SPEAKER_03 10:15

That's crazy.

SPEAKER_02 10:16

I grew up in the north where being a Christian was like you had to be Christian. What does that mean? So my part of my story growing up is a big part of my story is being saved from uh Muslim extremists and being on the cusp of death. And when I say cusp of death, people think, oh, it's like figurative. No, like we were we were chased, like we were chased down. So my parents, my earliest core memories of my parents is being crusade preachers in the north of Nigeria, which there's a whole thing about Sharia wars and stuff like that. So the Muslims, there was a huge uprising, and then they went for a lot of Christians, and then my parents being very well-known crusade preachers were obviously targeted, and yeah, we were actually funny stories saved by something that I found quite interesting. My dad, the next door neighbor was a Muslim like priest, like Imam they called him. And I'll just know every morning my dad would just be like, Hey morning, how you doing?

SPEAKER_01 11:13

How's your day? Hey morning, how you doing? How's your day?

SPEAKER_02 11:16

That's it. And then he was the dude that came out and stepped out and saying, if you're gonna kill this family, you're gonna have to kill me first. Wow. My dad didn't do nothing else to this dude. Just hey morning, how's your day? Wow. And then I just thought that's it. You know, he didn't let okay, we're of different faiths, but I'm still gonna treat you with love. Ask how your day's going, do you need anything? Funny story, my dad was out of town. So it was my mum and us and my siblings. So my dad wasn't even there, so he did it. But like almost the stuff that my dad did was transpired to us to almost go, no, no, no, this is his family. So that's part of my story, and like growing up in church, that's why I mean you had to be Christian because you could be in crit you can be in church and something blows up, you can be in church and you're gone, you know. And even up until recently in Nigeria, you must you would have heard about the uprising happening again, and it's like it's even worse this time, but that's been happening for decades. Wow. So it's really close to my heart, and uh why I believe in Jesus is because I think he is real. Because anybody who's prepared to lay their life down for something they believe in, you must be convinced that Jesus Christ is real. So that's a little bit of my story, man.

SPEAKER_04 12:28

I have so many questions for over here, man, because we got to talk to Franny and her situation is literally the opposite. She grew up in a cult in America with someone who took advantage of her faith, and she had to meet Jesus later through a really genuine experience. Whereas you the opposite. Your family's being persecuted for knowing the real Jesus and having to stand against people who will literally take your life and do that. I feel like I my family was not persecuted growing up because they're Christians. I don't know, was it in Tanzania with that? I feel like I want to know more about how do you, as a kid, because I don't hear a lot of kids who have grown up in that. Like, what do you what are you thinking about a church when when you're like we may not be here tomorrow if we go to church?

SPEAKER_02 13:21

It's interesting because it a lot of it didn't make sense to me because I would always ask my parents, so why do we like why do we keep going? Like what's there must be something in this for you guys. And at that at that point as a kid, it's not my faith, it's my parents' faith. Right. So I'm like going, you know, as a kid, I don't even want to go to I don't, you know, that kind of thing. And my parents are like, no, we go to church, that's what we do. We fellowship with other people, that's what we do. We pray, that's what we do. And then I'll go to church and come rain, come shine. My parents are there, first in, last out, type of thing. And leading all these other people to faith, like delivering people from stuff, praying for people, interceding for people. I knew what intercession was before I even knew all these big English words at school. Like I knew what it meant, you know, like and I'm going, and also at the same time, I see my parents go from like wealth, not having as much, not you know, not owning a lot of stuff, owning loads of stuff, but their joy is the same. So I'm connecting the dots, going, okay, Jesus is like the one constant thing in my life as a kid. So it must be Jesus that's keeping my parents like happy regardless of what's happening. And it's also that thing they say train up a child in scripture, the way they should grow. When they're old, you know, they won't depart from it. I was watching like a commentator talk about that verse, and he did some like, you know, when they do the Greek and the you know, and then he ended up saying, like, it actually is train up a child the way he or she should grow, and then when they're old, it will not depart from them. So it's like what you're depositing in those kids who will never leave. It's like a seed. Wow, you know, and I grew up like loving Jesus, knowing the Bible, but it wasn't in my heart. And then eventually knowing that, man, like this faith could cost you your life. My decision to turn to Jesus wasn't a fairy tale one. It was like, I'm willing to die for you, Lord. Man, like so. If I'm in, I'm in. When did that happen? When did when you I was 20. Can you believe it, bro? Like it's wild. I grew up in church, seen my parents do all these things, and then it never sunk in for me.

SPEAKER_04 15:24

Wow.

SPEAKER_02 15:24

I was in uni, um, which we like called college, yeah, college. Yeah. Um, and then I was in just my university dorm, and for like weeks, six, seven weeks, I felt like a huge uh void in my heart. I knew what it was, but I I was like, well, I know Jesus, you know, like what's all this about? And then it got worse and worse and worse. And on my 20th birthday, or before my 20th birthday, I remember just being on the floor crying. And I was like, man, like I feel horrible, but nothing is like wrong with me. Everything's fine, you know. My parents are good, I'm healthy, I'm fine, you know. But I felt a void that I that overwhelmed me actually. And I prayed, I said, Lord, I don't think we know each other. I don't, I don't think like I know. Like, I grew up memorizing scripture. Wow. So much so that if you ask me at school, what does this say? I'll I could tell you. But it's head knowledge, not heart.

unknown 16:19

Wow.

SPEAKER_02 16:20

It's like I understood or I knew a lot about God. So I could Google Obama. Doesn't mean I'm invited to his house. Do you know what I mean?

SPEAKER_04 16:33

That's gonna I I told you, I won't you say that? That's gonna take care of it. The band is always ready. The band is always ready.

SPEAKER_02 16:39

Say that again, my friend. Right, I could Google Barack Obama. There's stuff online about who he is and what he's done, and I can memorize everything, but I'm still not invited to if he if he's having like a meet with his friends, I'm not on that list. And I felt like that was how my relationship with God was. Like I knew everything about him because you can read it, right? Yes, but then reading it with an understanding of like with intimacy is different from reading it for knowledge sakes.

SPEAKER_04 17:06

So I think there are a lot of people, including me, that have grown up in church with that experience that have all the trappings and services and ideas and conversations and potlucks and youth camp and worship songs. Uh-huh. They know about the Lord, but they have never had an actual relationship with him. And we hear that all the time. Even saying it out of my mouth, I'm like, I've I've heard and said that 10,000 times.

SPEAKER_06 17:34

But you know what I'm saying? Yeah, I think when you grow up in a Christian household like I like we did, it's easy to, you're, you're dr, you're on the boat. You're on somebody else's boat. Yes, yes. So they're they're rowing for you. Yes. And then when you get to, I have a similar testimony. Like when I was in college, I remember being like, this is what am I, like, what am I doing here? Like this is, I have to row by myself now. Right, right. There's nobody who's gonna tell me to wake up and go to church or read your Bible or listen to this so it's easier to drift. And then if you're around people, I went to a Bible college. I I don't know if there were a lot of people there who even touched their Bibles. You know, some of the, you know, in the apartment I stayed with, the friends I stayed with. So I think the the the aspect of even that, I like what you said about I had to, it was my parents' faith. You have to, I have to build my own faith now. Yeah, absolutely. I remember thinking about that, having to do that, being like, okay, that's it's not, I'm not doing this because my dad's telling me to read two chapters of the Bible a day. I need to read the Bible for me, man. To know the Lord. And I think a lot of people maybe who grew up in that, I think either get burned out on the I had to go up and dress up and do this thing and do the and then the the transfer doesn't happen. Yeah. The he doesn't depart from them, but you know, you have to still act I don't know, work on it. Yeah, absolutely.

SPEAKER_04 18:51

So what was what was you all's turning point from I know about Jesus to I actually know Jesus? What what was like the question? Because you I mean, I'm assuming the environment, maybe it was environment. Was it like college? Was it a hard situation that you need to trust God for? Or just like an internal longing? Like what was the flip?

SPEAKER_02 19:12

I think for me, college, when am I saying college now? I feel like you're an American. We live in Texas now. Come on, welcome to university, man. Like, okay, so uni uh was like the moment I was like, you know what? I want to know more for myself. And it initially started out of like curiosity, but it was a newfound curiosity that I never had before. So the curiosity before was like, hey, you know, Samuel, you're gonna lead prayers at youth camp, go study about it. And I'm just looking for verses to like do the thing. But now it's curiosity about okay, Lord, how how how do I not how do you fit in my life, but how do I fit in your life for me? Like it's almost like I had to remove myself from ownership of my own life and say, okay, Lord, I okay, this is now yours, I've given everything to you. So what do you what do you want?

SPEAKER_04 20:09

Well well, the hard thing is like praying can be either religious or heartfelt.

SPEAKER_02 20:17

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 20:18

So how do you know the difference between I'm praying from a heartfelt place versus playing from a because I feel like the prayer, driving to church on Sunday morning, you can drive there as a non-Christian or a Christian. You know what I'm saying? Like the activity of going is not really defining. So how can you all, how do y'all tell, like, man, I'm going to church because I feel or I know and believe, or like I'm going to church because my parents did it, my friends do it out in America or whatever.

SPEAKER_02 20:49

I would say conviction and expectation were like the two things for me that changed. So I'm now going because I know this is real. I know God has wonderful plans for me. And I'm convinced of that for me. Not like for my parents, and then it rolls down to me. And then expectations of when I gave my life to Jesus, I went to church. It's like it's not so I've been married for two years now, right? Or two years coming up. And there was a moment where my wife was just my friend, and we would meet up and hang out, and then when it turned romantic, the expectation was different. So like I'm meeting up wanting to know her more. Wanting to like, hey, to like take some notes down so I can surprise her another time. It's like I I can't wait to meet this beautiful woman. Right. So that's in a way multiplied by a hundred, how I felt for church and for God. So it's like I'm driving to church, I know I'm gonna have an encounter today because I've already been like reading about him and I've been reading about and now I get to do it with other people, which is the whole point of church, right? Right. That's what changed for me. I don't know about if yours is kind of similar.

SPEAKER_06 22:04

So my dad, when he was a pastor, and my dad was also a missionary too. Anytime he would introduce my older brother, myself, and my younger sister, he would always say, Hey, I'm raising pastors. Like I'm raising ministers. And so I went kind of my whole childhood thinking, like, yeah, I'm gonna be a minister. Oh, no way. I'm gonna be a minister. That's what I'm gonna be. And so I didn't, I had no, I had other, like I liked comedy, I liked making videos, but I just knew all of this stuff is trash. Everything, my interests, my hobbies are nothing compared to. I need to serve the Lord with my whole heart. And so went to Bible college, studied, served at a church, uh, volunteered all the things, became the student pastor at that church. And uh quickly, just a senior pastor realized, like, I don't, you know, I I didn't have it in me to be a good follower of the like I just wasn't good at the role. Like I think there was a specific way that he wanted the role filled, and I wasn't good at it. And he was like, hey man, I got, you know, we gotta, I don't think we have to part ways. And uh, and so that was really the first time I remember thinking, like, I went home, and then Sunday morning woke up. I mean, Sunday morning I woke up and I and I just went to church as a member. And that was I remember thinking, I was 22 or 23 at the time. And I was like, man, I've never gone to church as a member since I was. That's crazy. That's crazy. Since 11 years old. Every time I've gone, my dad was the pastor, and I served and I did this and I put up chairs and I ran sound. I went to college, and I just got in the same mode of I gotta serve and I gotta do this. And that transition of, you know, getting let go from a I tell people from my purpose, right? Like this is what my dad pointed to me and said of when he talked to me. Hey, this up, I'm raising ministers. Right. And so then to not be a minister, yeah, that was I remember thinking, like, when I go read my Bible now, I'm reading not to take notes to make a great message or to encourage somebody or to go to coffee or do whatever. Like, I'm making friendships for the sake of making friendships. I'm not, you know. And that was a that was a big turn. I love that. It was a sweet moment, like it was very bitter, but it was also very sweet because I remember just like, man, reading, listening to books, reading books, watching sermons and watching messages, and just being so encouraged and learning and even talking about not for something. Like I wasn't reading and worshiping or doing for something. It was just, I'm going to church because I'm going, because I love Jesus. Yeah. And I'm reading the Bible because I love Jesus. That's awesome, man.

SPEAKER_04 24:31

That's awesome. And I mean, that story, I bet there are a lot of people who grew up in church, faced a disappointment, whether it's a health challenge or a job challenge or a relational challenge that bumped up against what everyone told them about the Lord. Yeah. And they realize I'm not really standing on a solid rock right now. I'm standing on Bible drills, but I don't even really know him. And I mean, I feel like that's real. I feel like that's real. I mean, some people got saved when they're young, I got saved when I was pretty young at 12.

unknown 25:06

Wow.

SPEAKER_04 25:06

I remember the service. Like I could look at the scene right now. My dad was preaching, and he was preaching a very specific message about if you know Jesus, you will be with him forever. And if you don't, it's not gonna turn out that great for you eternally. And I had heard that message at 12, probably 10,000 times. But that Sunday, my heart was bumping out of my chest. I felt like God was right here, and I was, he was like, I came for you today.

SPEAKER_08 25:36

Come on.

SPEAKER_04 25:36

It felt like a Bible story. And I remember thinking, if I don't walk down right now, I know I am disobeying God. Not because the Bible says so, not because my dad, my dad was moved. It was like God is calling you. So I walked down. I was so embarrassed too, because I was like the pastor's kid. Yeah. I was like, I can't walk down. They're gonna know I've been doing stuff. You know what I'm saying? Like, I'm gonna reveal myself myself. Because the pastor's kid, that's if you had to walk down to the altar, it's like, yeah, man. And this kid is a hooligan. But you know what happened? Other kids walked down. Wow. Because it was I what what the enemy was telling me was that I would be embarrassed, but what now I know now that God was using me to unlock other kids in the room. Come on, man. I walked down. I remember that drive home, bro. I looked out, I could cry think about it. I looked out in the window of my backseat car and the sky was bluer. No joke. I looked up and I was like, I know the God of the universe. And from that moment, it's just been undeniable. I mean, through all the craziness, all the disappointment, that moment was like, I'm a Christian.

SPEAKER_07 26:38

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 26:38

But there have been some really hard times since then. Absolutely. Where I was like, I don't know if I am. I mean, I have that moment that I can go back to, but there have been some other situations where I'm like, I thought they said God would heal people, and then sickness happens. Or I thought they said. So, as grown-ups, you guys have had these amazing stories of meeting the Lord. What is it like being a grown-up church kid? Like, how do you take what you learned from your dad, what God put in you from your parents? What do you do with that now as as married two years, married with kids, I'm married with kids? Is it the same? Is it different? Like, what does your spiritual life look at now?

SPEAKER_02 27:21

Oh, spiritual life? Spiritual, like, you mean like the quiet times and intimacy with God?

SPEAKER_04 27:26

Yeah, like do you do you feel like it's grown at the same pace as your age? For example, you've been saved for how long? Uh well, save, save, ten years. Ten years, okay. So you've lived 10 years of life since that time. Do you feel like your growth in that time frame has been like, man, I feel like I'm on this trajectory?

SPEAKER_02 27:44

It's an interesting question. Because like, how do you find how do you define like growth? Well, the best way I can define it is a feeling of intimacy that you can't really explain all the time. And maybe for me, the way that I have grown, as well as like knowing the word of God and I've seen my character change. You know, like you know, the whole like I was blind, but now I see, it was lost, but now I found, but that stuff is real. It is real. Like it's that there are things that my wife would say, hey man, like when I first met you, you were like this, and now you're like this. And you only the growth is like you only notice it when you look back. Right. When it's happening, you don't, it's like little changes, right? Yes, you know, God is like taking this out and replacing it with that and giving you fruit of the spirit, and like because the fruit is all of it, right? It's not just like joy and peace and patience, like he gives you fruit, and then you grow in all of those things. And it's beautiful for me that I feel like I'm a lot more patient, I'm a lot more kinder to people. Can I still be a lot more kinder? Of course, 100%. Like the thing that I'm like praying to God right now is like, hey Lord, sometimes I'll be like thinking stuff about people. I don't say it. Can you give us an example of a person? I mean, say if someone's really rude to me, like at this at the store, like if I go somewhere and someone's someone's like rude to me and you you want to like match. I like to call it matching energy, bro. Like it's yeah, it's cool. If you meet me here, I'll meet you here. Yeah. I might go up, you know, but yeah. So it's like I don't say it physically, but I think it. And I'm like, all right, Lord, hey man, like, go cut me some slack sometimes, man. Do you see what did you hear what that person said? That type of thing. Right. So that's what, but it's a it's an honest conversation. Yeah. Like my faith has grown from God is this this guy in heaven who sits down and judges. Yeah. To now, he's he's my dad. And the way that I speak to my earthly father, sometimes, bro, my prayer times look like conversations like these, bro. I'm like, yeah, Lord, like today I've got this meeting. I don't know what's about to happen. I hope it goes well. You know, like I'm talking to him. Wow. You know, and for me, that has been one of the best signs of growth because my view of God has changed. He's everything I need and anything I want him to be. So that's like amazing.

SPEAKER_04 30:12

What a dad. Yeah, man. And I can tell when you talk that you actually know him. It doesn't, it doesn't sound like a religious speech. I just got these three points I gotta tell y'all. It sounds like you actually know him, man, which is refreshing to hear. Um and I'm just curious, like, have first of all, you said the result of growth is fruit of the spirit. That isn't a baller answer. Because you could have said, I pray, write, I go to church every Sunday, you know, I don't cuss, or whatever it is, but you said I'm a better person. And that's that's different, man. 100%.

SPEAKER_02 30:50

I've I I feel like that's really good. He transforms you. Yeah. I don't, I don't think, and this is like at every level that you meet Jesus, you don't stay the same. Come as you are, don't remain the way you are. And like it's been it's been a thing in like church. I think you guys probably know it's an American church. Yeah. Come as you are, come as you are, come as you are. And oftentimes, come as you are ends up being stay as you are, but just keep coming here as you are, so we can say we have more people as they are.

SPEAKER_04 31:19

I have to do that one. You just call out the whole American program. No, no, you can do that. You have the right to do that. You're new there.

SPEAKER_02 31:27

I'm new here, it's crazy. But it's like Jesus transforms. Yeah, like and Jesus is all powerful, so wherever he steps into becomes his, right? It's like that's the that's the truth. Yes. So if I say Jesus is in my life, then Jesus dominates. Like it's it's priority and then everything else. Seek E first, not like seeky fifth or sixth, the kingdom of heaven. Wow. And everything else will be added to it. So like since Jesus is coming to my life and in my heart, you have almost no choice but to let him take control. Otherwise, I often think, what's the point? Right. Because Jesus can't be number two.

SPEAKER_04 32:05

Yeah. I think that may be one of the biggest challenges that we as Americans face is making Jesus Lord. I think we're really talking. Right. Like, I'm broken, I made mistakes. Jesus is my savior, he forgives my sins. But I don't know if we've been as good as like, I give him control of decision making in my life. Absolutely. And whatever Jesus says is what I do. I don't think we got that part. I was talking to somebody the other day, quick, really random thing. But if you think about how the country was founded, we were founded in rebellion against another country. So our moral, our moral compass here in America is we don't need a king. Literally. We are rebelling against authority. And in literally in our Constitution, our Articles of Federation are written individualism and um self-promotion. And I'm not against any of that. I I'm proud to be American. Let me make that very clear. Glad to be here. But spiritually speaking, I think some of that has made the church rebellious against the idea of having a king. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 33:13

That is so interesting.

SPEAKER_04 33:14

And you really can't be a Christian. Really, you really cannot be a Christian if you still believe that you don't need a king.

SPEAKER_02 33:21

Yeah. Can I talk about a flip side of that? Yeah. That I often think you might relate to this of being Tanzanian. In Africa, it's weirdly opposite. So where we have a savior complex in terms of Jesus is my savior, so he saves me from everything else that I go through and he gives me everything that I need. So I'm going to believe in Jesus so I can get it. So it's it's less about like we don't have a problem with having a king or having a savior, having a Lord. We'll follow, oh, we'll follow the rules, like we'll do all of these things. But then the other side of actual intimacy is often lacking. Wow. In spaces. I I grew up in, obviously, I don't know how much know about Nigerian church, but it's often we call it the prosperity kind of gospel, which is just health, wealth, gotta do all these things for you come to him. A lot of the time in Nigeria, in the places that I grew up in, people have basic needs that are lacking. So when you come home, there's no light. The clean water sometimes in some spaces are hard to find. So you're telling me Jesus is the answer to all of these things? Of course I'm gonna believe. And then they end up using Jesus as a genie or uh uh like a you just rub the belly of the Buddha rather, you know, so to speak, and then you get all these things. Yeah. And then now that thank God there's a lot of people in Africa and Nigeria especially are rising up to the fact that no, the Bible is whole and it's complete. And then Jesus giving you all these things, it's actually secondary. Wow. Knowing Jesus is like in Christianity, the journey is a destination. It's like going on that straight and narrow path. Wow, that's the point.

SPEAKER_04 35:14

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 35:15

There is, you know, the when we get to heaven, sure, glory, hallelujah. But a lot of preachers now are like coming out saying, guys, there's more to this stuff. Like there's always been more to this stuff. We've just always been told one side. That's interesting. And I'm not saying it from you know a privileged point of view because there are people who are really going through it. And some people are living way, way, way, way, way below what's considered minimum wage. So I'm saying nothing to their struggle, right? But I'm saying sometimes it can be fuel to numbers in the church. Yeah. So you have a million people in the church, 75% of them are there because they know Jesus or they believe Jesus will be the solution and their way out of a life of poverty. Yeah. Wow.

SPEAKER_04 36:00

Which isn't the full picture. Yeah. That is so, it's so interesting how different countries and cultures approach the Christian faith differently based on where they start. Yeah, man. I mean, do you do you feel any of that from I mean, what was what was the I don't want to call it bait, because bait feels a little trite, but it feels like people from Nigeria are coming to Jesus to meet a need. Some people, not all. Some people. Some people are coming to meet a need. Do you feel like that's the case?

SPEAKER_06 36:33

I I read a book, uh, it's called 3D Gospel, and it talks about how different cultures, some of their value systems, and it was so eye-opening because here in America, we've we value guilt innocence. I think in African countries, it's it's honor, sh honor, shame. And then another culture is like fear power. Right. So in in in the US, you know, when most altar calls are, man, the uh an innocent man was made guilty. And in Tanzania, you kind of so I think people speak from those value systems of man, you know, you were being poor is shameful. You know, like, and what are you what are we saying? Like, oh, you can come to Christ, you become honorable. Right. A pastor is an honored person. Right. I even think about uh uh in Africa, you know, if you are successful, you are you are big. You are physically large, you're fat. Being fat is because you are able to feed yourself. You know, so you have these people who are who are large in charge, and then you have people who aren't, you know, like that. No, I just somebody's saying, like, you know what, I in I was shameful. I was I was blah-da-da-da, and this and poor, I didn't have a and so what they're communicating is when I came to Christ looking at me.

SPEAKER_04 37:49

Yeah, that's crazy. Crazy. What would be the American version of that?

unknown 37:53

Oh sheesh.

SPEAKER_06 37:54

I mean, people talk about me now for for. I think people talk about how sinful they were, how guilty they were. Like, I did this and I did this. People kind of go through the laundry list of like their their all their sins, and sin is almost like a badge of honor. But in the book, at the end of the book, um, I highly recommend that book, 3D Gospel. The end of the book, they just mention how in Christ, in scripture, God has given us, He talks about being powerful, being innocent, uh, having honor. And Paul writes a lot about this. About so when you go to it with whatever kind of mindset you have or value system you have, there is something there for you. Totally. But I think you can't go heavy-handed on one or the other.

SPEAKER_04 38:37

Well, it makes me wonder if God uses all the cultures to reveal his character. Yeah. Like he's not gonna give America America. He's not gonna give America all the jewels that we can't learn from a Nigerian church. Yeah. Because I feel like sometimes we evangelize, maybe even colonize spiritually, other cultures, thinking that our perspective of God is the singular one that should be sent to these other countries. Yeah. That's why I love having you guys here, because I feel like when you hear what's going on in a Nigerian church, a Tanzanian church, you don't hear like we need what you do the way you do it. You hear we need Jesus. And and when evangelists go there, we should be thinking, we need Jesus, and we need Jesus the way that you all see him. Um, I feel like we Americans need more exposure to Jesus seeing through other cultures. You talked about dancing earlier, that his church grew up dancing all the time. At church?

SPEAKER_03 39:41

Yeah. At church.

SPEAKER_04 39:42

Did y'all do that too? Facts.

SPEAKER_02 39:44

Movies.

SPEAKER_04 39:44

I'm coming to y'all's church.

SPEAKER_02 39:46

Bro, sweating. I grew up in a church where we had, we didn't have instruments. We had we had our hands. Come on, man. And we didn't have no lyrics, we had hymn books. Come on, man. And then we, as a person who stands on a pulpit, as we call it. By the way, why are the pulpits been taken out? Do you know what? Like an altar? Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Is that what you guys call it? I mean, they've been taken out of churches, man. We all do. Some church small churches in in America. Still have them, but not larger churches. Now it's like they got these tables, and I'm like, I'm still working my way through it. Yeah, because yeah, it just makes me feel like homey when I see a pulpit. Right. Do you know what I mean? Yeah. But it's like I grew up in a church, there's like hymn books, someone stands and says, All right, we're doing this hymn. Yep. And then we're clapping. Yeah, man. So, like, bro, my church expression was joy. Do you come? Come on.

SPEAKER_03 40:29

That's what he said. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 40:30

We come to church, we have a joyful time, we make a joyful noise. That's great. Like, I know what that feels like because wherever the spirit of the Lord is, there is freedom to sing, to dance, to clap, to be undignified. Wow. Like, I don't know, bro. Bro, and I get into spaces. When I moved to the UK, when my family moved to the UK, it was the first time I went to church, and I'm like, why is everyone just standing? And it was weird for me. It's like, do they not know? It's almost like they haven't heard the news. Like Jesus, what Jesus has done. Like, maybe they don't understand it. Yeah. But then I'm realizing different contexts. Yes. Because like in the space that I'm from, when you come to Jesus, in the environment you're in, it's a party. It hits. It's like, oh man, you've I may still be in this situation, but I have something that's greater. And I have something I'm looking forward to. Wow. And then I come to the UK and it's like, well, if you don't have a job, we got you. If you don't have a this, we got you. If you don't have a place to stay, you can just go to that thing. And now comfort is the norm. So now everybody's comfortable. Everybody has money. Everybody has a job. Everybody has a roof over their heads, bro. So you go to church, it's like, well, yeah, Jesus is cool. Yeah. But why do I need to desperately seek him for all these things that I already have? And then the conversation now goes to in those churches. Well, we have to go deeper to the person of Jesus to then understand why you need him. You know, but back home is like there was a hunger and desperation. Yeah. Once you get into the rooms, I remember going to church. Church starts at eight, for example, but obviously, as a pastor's kid, but they're at six. Two hours before. It's long, man. But then my dad opens the church at six, but there's people waiting outside.

SPEAKER_07 42:25

Woo!

SPEAKER_02 42:26

Why? They're just gonna come in and start praying. So they're doing their own private devotion before the church starts. Wow. That hunger for me. Wow. And I'm like in the UK in the church. And obviously, we're seeing a revival, and may the Lord continue doing his work. Sometimes I feel like the comfort in modern societies is God's bag. Man. It's like to lift hands in church is like, man, like I know, I know.

SPEAKER_06 42:51

But there's a story I remember Francis Chan shared, I think on a podcast or in a book, but he got invited to go speak to an NBA team. And, you know, he while he was preparing was so like caught off guard and concerned about like how do I communicate the greatness of God to people who are about to, who are great at something and are about to go get cheered on. How do you communicate worship praise to a God to people who are about to have 20,000 fans yell at them? Wow. And I think that's similar to where most countries that we were really comfortable. It was like, you know, you're praying, you're worshiping, but it's like, you know, I kind of figured a lot of things out. I got it. And so I know there's the I don't know if it's a joke, but people who are, you know, you something goes wrong in life, and that's when you lean in. Yeah, that's when you show up to church before the doors open and all that. Yeah. But there is a hunger that we should have and a and a joy that we should have as it goes against our circumstances.

SPEAKER_04 43:59

Yeah. Uh 9-11 here. You were probably in the UK. I don't know. Where were you in the UK? I was in Nigeria. You were? At the time, yeah. So I moved to Nigeria when I was 12. So we watched it on the news. Bro, let me tell you, the church was full. I remember that. Full. I mean, I think it happened on a Tuesday, maybe something like that. It wasn't even like a normal church night, I think. We had church sat night or the night after, and for like four weeks it was packed because of what you're talking about. I think for that generation, our generation is one of the pivotal we do not control anything. Like in a moment, not just our food is gone or we're sick, we could literally blow someone could blow us up. Like I know that's in maybe in your environment, that's why it's crazy to talk to you. That's your childhood. The thought that I might not make it to another day by going to church is your childhood. We don't have, I didn't have that. Church was seen as the safest place in the city. No one would dare come into church and shoot you. Wow. I mean, it was like, what are you talking about? Wow. Even crazy people honor God's house. But 9-11 was like, you mean somebody did that in the name of God, possibly? Or you mean someone's gonna go into this church? Bro, I have a newspaper at my house, it says, um, mother of Dr. King slain. Dr. King's mom was killed while playing organ in her church.

SPEAKER_05 45:20

What?

SPEAKER_04 45:20

In like the 70s. And I read that, I was like, it's on my wall at home because I'm like, I gotta remember, first of all, I need God. You know what I'm saying? Like, even in ministry, like you need God, and our churches, our buildings have become dangerous places. Physically, I would even say emotionally. Yeah. And for us that grew up in church, it actually, I think we have an opportunity to reclaim God's house. Come on. As a place where people can come to find a refuge and to find out they actually need the Lord. You know, we're not just coming to church to like get fat, you know what I'm saying, and build our own kingdoms. We should be coming to church being like, I I need y'all. I I need you to encourage me. And I and I have something to give and bring. That's the other thing I think maybe we don't have as much of in American church. We're not bringing a lot with us to church. We we come with our buckets to be full, and we're not doing a lot of I've been praying all week, I've been, I've been in in my word, and I'm like dumping out. So it's really great to hear you guys because I think the American church needs to be reminded of it's okay to dance in church. Yeah. Yeah. Like even that is a great example of man, I want to go to a dancing church.

SPEAKER_06 46:38

Why are we dancing in church, man? I just remembered moved to Tanting and my parents planned to the church. Uh one Sunday, uh there was a chicken in the back of the church. Somebody brought a chicken, you know, tied up his legs or whatever, put it in the back of the church. And so then after service, my dad, you know, picked it up, and I think, I don't know, he was trying to decide what to do with it. And I was like, where'd that chicken come from? He goes, Somebody brought it. That's their offering. Yes. Oh, yes. I probably don't have money, but they're like, you know what? I want to go with some chicken. I want to go with something. Take me back, bro. That chicken was delicious.

SPEAKER_04 47:11

Y'all, y'all cooked it? Sure, but don't be that was delicious. Did y'all did y'all give them a wing at least? Did you share?

SPEAKER_06 47:19

I don't remember what happened. I don't remember what happened with that chicken. But uh No, no, there's I think you're right. The idea of somebody going with something, they're so compelled that man, I don't have, I don't, I don't have anything to give, but I don't want to show up empty-handed. Wow, wow. Um yeah, we are definitely in a consumer. Even you talking about like what happened to podiums. I'm over here like, man, I've never pay attention to stuff like that, and you're right. What did happen to some of those things that uh uh what is the what is the goal and the the motivation behind like let's streamline, let's get the podium is in the way, it's big, it's heavy, we gotta have singers, we get we have a camera, let's get that out of the way, let's bring it, you know, yeah, streamlining.

SPEAKER_04 47:58

Yeah. I I think a lot of churches have tried to look less like a religious building and more like a community um stage and platform. Interesting. I understand some of that, but I think we've lost kind of the the reverence of it by taking some of the unique things away from it. I don't think there's power in the podium. No. No. But I do think when you walked in, you're like, I'm not in a gymnasium. Yeah, it's a r- Yeah, yeah. See what you mean. I'm not at home. Yeah, yeah. You know what I'm saying? Like, yeah. Even our dress, like we, again, you don't have to dress up to come in the presence of God. But we would, we would dress differently out of honor and reverence for the Lord. And again, I'm not saying we should do that now, but I do think it it we probably could get a little a bit a bit a bit back from. I agree. Like, we should get that back.

SPEAKER_06 48:46

I agree. I went to church one time. I saw somebody in shorts and slides. Come as you are. That's what he said to them, bro. I mean, come as you are. Come as you are, but cover your toes.

SPEAKER_04 48:58

And your ashy knees. We gotta draw the line at the toes. At the toes, man. At the toes, man. Yeah, yeah. I think there's a lot to be said about coming with something and also coming humbly and knowing that God can change you at church. Like expecting something to happen at church. Totally. Yeah. Not to check it off your list, not to say I did it, but I'm driving to church with an expectation that God's there.

SPEAKER_06 49:26

You know, there's one thing I was thinking about when Duane, you asked, you know, what keeps you in this. And I had the tragedy slash honor of watching my father waste away from cancer and also die. But my dad, I mean, he he passed away on a big Monday, but he had preached on a Sunday. And I watched him preach, you know, the big the big church. And uh and he finished well. I remember after he passed away, the day passed away. My mom told me your dad, the person that he was outside of the house was the same person he was. And he never treated me or anyone differently. Like he lived above reproach. And I'm not saying that to like brag on my dad, but he should. That's awesome. The the funeral, the it was incredibly sad. He was about to turn 62. Tragic. But there was a part of it that I remember thinking like, well, I'm watching the book close. I'm watching him, he finished well. And I think that's something that maybe I think about a lot as a Christian, a husband, a father. Of like, what's the dream? The dream is to I'm trying to cross the finish line.

SPEAKER_07 50:45

Yeah.

SPEAKER_06 50:45

You know what I mean? Like, and I think that's a thing that man, you there are a lot of ministers and people who are tripping before they cross the finish line. Yeah, big time. Yeah. And it's like, buddy, yeah, you're you were so close. Yeah. You were so close. Yeah. And I think that's, I don't know, man. I'm trying to, I'm trying to, I'm trying to cross that line. Yeah, me too, man. I think it's beautiful. It's beautiful to go like, yeah. I think we can have the same conversation. What are we, 30s, all 30s here? Okay. I think we can have the same conversation 30 years from now. Yeah. Maybe a little more gray, maybe a little less hair. Yeah. A little heavier, maybe. Yeah, yeah, yeah. But I think that to me, that's the a beautiful image of what walking with Christ is. Isn't, and I even say that not like, I'm excited to see a young person on fire for Jesus. Right. I'm ex- I hey, preach. You're 20-something, preach. But what motivates me, what I love, oh man, I love seeing an old person who's like, I've been walking with the Lord for something like that to me is that.

SPEAKER_02 51:46

Yo, did you see that? Thank you. Just what you said, there was an Instagram video that went viral of like uh they were like, they must have been 80-something um old um old women in church singing goodness of God. And then they went, oh my life. You've been facing bro. Come on. When I say that, that clip wrecked me, bro. Yeah, like because this is like all my life. Yes, sir. And I don't know how long they've been walking with the law. Yeah, like, but when you sit with those, and that's something it's funny you say that. I was actually talking to um Hannah and Jeremy about this. About I want to sit with some of the like worship leaders who've like paved the way and just listen. But I don't want to like, yeah, great. Just want to hear your story, yeah. Hear everything that and that sort of expectation, yeah, even in church. Like, I go to church now and I see an older couple. My wife and I will be like, oh, we should we should get closer to them. Like, there's almost this thing that I've often missed because now there's a thing about young churches, and you know, there's right. There's just all these like when I grew up in church, we had all age rangers, like, and church was for everybody. Whether like I was a kid, they made me sit in adults. I don't know if that was usual, like, bro. I didn't even have children church that long.

SPEAKER_04 53:06

I didn't know I didn't know what children's church was. Bro, I was blessed if I got a peppermint.

SPEAKER_06 53:12

Now they get steaks and those red candies that nobody knows what they're called? They get stuck to your teeth.

SPEAKER_04 53:21

That was a good Sunday if I got one of those. But most of the time you sit on that pew and you listen. And you participate. Yes. Like you you engage. Like my parents would ask me, what did you think about the sermon? I mean, it wouldn't, it I didn't have no coloring book. It was like, what did you think about what that man preached? And we were like, uh, I was kind of nodding off because I'm like five. But um that's crazy. You're right, man. The age expectation was that we were coming to church together. We're gonna sit together and worship together. And I think that's really valuable, man. I love that. I feel like I I learned how to engage in the presence of God with people because we did it so young. Even my kids, we talked about this too. Like my kids now go to kids' church, which is awesome. They they learn a lot of stuff, but once a month we bring them in the sanctuary with us, my wife and I. We decided maybe like a year ago. Oh, wow, we don't want to get 10 years, 18 years down the road, and my son has never sat beside me in church. Which, if I were to go by the program of the church, he never would. Yeah, yeah, yeah. So once a month, my kids come in, sit with me. And they're you know, fidgety, because they don't have what I had, which was like sit down, be quiet. They didn't get pinched. But I have to train them like Tobin, hey, in the house of God. That is facts. Like you, you, you gotta, you gotta act a certain way. And um, I think that's really beneficial for us. Um before we go, I want to hear about music. Because after all that, he'd been talking this whole time. You wouldn't even know that he's this amazing.

SPEAKER_06 54:47

I gotta say, I was first introduced to you, I was listening to a playlist. Maybe like Wow, maybe four or five years ago. That's his playlist. Wow. And all of a sudden I heard da da da da da da da da. Oh, no way. And I remember thinking, you know, when you listen to a playlist, hey, you got his songs on there. Who is that? Whatever. And then one I remember being like, who is that? Called out music. I started following you. Hosanna. Hosanna was a songman.

SPEAKER_02 55:10

I loved that song. The OG Cooks, Hosanna, man. Yeah, man. Bro, that that song is wild because like we grew up singing it. Yeah, I was just literally in my studio and I was worshiping, and I just had this moment of like Hosanna. Because we at church that week, we had learned the meaning of Hosanna, which is like save us. Like, so when you know Jesus rolls in and on the donkey, or just yeah, and it's like, yeah, Hosanna, Hosanna. And I'm like, wow, why are they saying that? And then they told us this is this was the moment. Like, yes, he had returned to save them, and I was in the moment where Spencer was like, Hosanna, in the house, and then I started singing the angels bowed down at a thought of you. And I was like, hold on, Kirk. Let's not just pretend he didn't say that. Yeah, right, right. And I called my wife in and I was like, Have you ever taken in those words?

SPEAKER_04 56:04

Because they're going so fast on the recording. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_02 56:07

At the thought, he's not even there. Like, so the angels bow down, just thinking. Come on. About so there's a reverence there. And I started playing and worshiping with it, and I was like, nah, like this, I need everybody to hear this. Yeah. So my putting out that song wasn't because, oh, check out this cool version. Right. It's like, no, listen to the words.

SPEAKER_04 56:25

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 56:26

And everyone's having the same reaction. It was like, oh yeah, oh yeah, cool. Yeah, yeah. This is wonderful. Like, yeah. Kirk, for example, he's in his bag. Well, he's in his bag.

SPEAKER_04 56:34

Yeah, let's let's be honest. If you don't know what record he's talking about, this is the Kurt Franklin live record recorded at Lakewood Church, Houston, Texas. It's got Hosanna, which is an upbeat song. Yeah. You're saying you played a slower version. Slower version of it. Get those lyrics in. I mean, that that record is like great. It's it's yeah, it's thick.

SPEAKER_02 56:52

It's got, I mean, there's not a bad song. Spoil on that, man. Um, so yeah, man. That's I just started and then yeah, been making music for 10 years now. Wow by the grace of God. And um, yeah, just moved to YouTube.

SPEAKER_04 57:04

I really like the videos you're doing. Um, I saw another day where you're just at a piano, like these worship.

SPEAKER_05 57:09

I sense what is that called?

SPEAKER_02 57:10

What is that called? They're just worship moments. Okay. Like the studio worship moments who just press record for 30 minutes. It's awesome, man. You know that's crazy. You guys are saying this, because I was I was gonna stop doing them, bro.

SPEAKER_04 57:23

Why?

SPEAKER_02 57:23

Don't like get to the point. Don't do not. Do not why because it it does it does take a lot of like prayer and planning and stuff and you know, getting the right equipment because what's worth doing is worth doing well.

SPEAKER_04 57:41

But like my skin the band look the band went out, they went for a second, they're gonna be back. They just got back from lunch, a smoke break. You know, as a Baptist church, you know, seriously Baptist church would be. Yeah, hey, that's crazy, bro.

SPEAKER_02 57:57

Um we love you, Baptist. Yeah, bro. No, no, so that I I'm just like, yo, they they do take a lot of time, but I've been greatly encouraged by like comments and like, you know, what's even good. Yeah, that that means a lot, so yeah.

SPEAKER_06 58:10

I don't know, but like occasionally it's like, hey, I'll play one song. I'll play one song here and there. But there's something about you go to church, it's two, three songs in 12 minutes or whatever. 10 minutes. Hello? But there's something about that pulling up, I pull it up on the TV. I have four kids. So we'll pull it up on the TV and just let it play while we're making something, breakfast or something. It's sweet, man. It's awesome. It's like really encouraged, really good. That's the you I'm just letting you know that's that's how I'm that's the the that's how we're ingesting that. So it's it's beautiful. And also I I know that you're like looking at your, you know, you're looking at what to play next, and I know there's a lot going on, but I don't know, there's something even at the choir room, that's yeah. Somebody who's not musically gifted, there's something beautiful about watching somebody figure it out. Yes.

SPEAKER_02 59:00

And flow. Yeah. 100%.

SPEAKER_04 59:02

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 59:03

So I think we're returning to that. I think authenticity, yes, even in music. Yes, especially faith-based music. Yes. Because I think what you're seeing is creativity, you're seeing skill, you're seeing um know-how, but you're also seeing in real time the Holy Spirit do the work. That's right, that's right. And I think there's something so beautiful about it. Whereas like sometimes I'm there. The last one I did, for example, um, I was worshiping and I just felt led to pray. And in my mind, I'm thinking, yo, people are on YouTube to worship. Am I just gonna pray midway? And I just did it. And then I get DMs from people saying, yo, that prayer met me where I was. So you're almost doing real-time stuff but recording it away. But it's ministry in real time. It is. So it's it's so beautiful in Christian music. We're seeing a push towards like, hey, just give me the main dish. Yeah, all these extra stuff is cool, right? And they have their place. Right. But we're seeing a different way people are engaging with like faith-based content, which is why chirum is just something else. Which you came and crushed, man. It's incredible. Bro, that experience was wild. And also about Khoir Room, that's black church, right? Which is new to me. Yeah, crazy, man. Which is interesting because I go into some places, maybe in the UK or in Europe, and they're like, oh, play that gospel stuff. I'm like, who me? Yeah, wow. Why would you black? Oh, 100%. Oh, let's just cut to the chase, bro. Yeah, of course. Got it. Like, and it's not like I'm not inspired by gospel music. I can do a little bit.

SPEAKER_04 1:00:35

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 1:00:35

But most of what I play is Nigerian, British worship type thing where there's some chords, and I can do a flat seven. Yeah, yeah. But I can't play like some of those dudes yesterday. Yeah. So it's like gospel music is new to me. Wow. I didn't grow up listening to Richard like Smallwood's catalogue. Wow. I was inspired by the person though. Wow. Does that make sense? So like my OGs are Nigerian worship leaders.

SPEAKER_04 1:01:00

Wow. I think you just blew somebody's mind. Because I think people do assume that because you're a scan a certain complexion, that you are the same musical person as every other person that's at. Absolutely not. And it's not true. Whether you know it or not, black people are not all the same.

SPEAKER_02 1:01:18

Breaking news. Breaking news. Breaking news.

SPEAKER_06 1:01:21

Somebody's got it. Somebody's like, I understand it. Oh, they all don't. Oh, bro. Even right here. That's very different. 100%. Literally. Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 1:01:31

I feel like this whole time I've been talking, people have been like maybe sublimely thinking, those three guys are not the same. And I think that's healthy, man. And that's for any culture. All Hispanics are not the same. All white people are not the same. 100%.

SPEAKER_06 1:01:46

All white people are definitely not the same. Not this dude. Not the same. Very different. Not the same. I'm in the Bible Belt. I've been to the Midwest. I've been to California. This is different. Y variety. Very different.

SPEAKER_04 1:02:01

Y variety. Y'all remember those? This is so 90s. You remember the wide variety chip pack that used to be sold? It'd be like Doritos and Lady. I don't remember Doritos. Okay, now we're. That's an American thing. Bring some crisps. You get some crisps. I'll get those. Yeah, man. I feel like church should be a place where we can all hang. You know what I'm saying?

SPEAKER_06 1:02:24

I think there's something else that I've been reading about recently with the growing amount of AI, the song line. AI has this, it's beautiful.

SPEAKER_04 1:02:32

Yeah.

SPEAKER_06 1:02:32

When it creates models, they're symmetrical, you know, humans, they're polished. If it's singing a song, you know, the auto-tune is pun, you know, everything is correct. So there is something about watching the the turn is that people are like, hey, if if if perfection, if this thing can be perfect, then what people will, what humans will connect with is a human and some of the imperfections that come from that. Yes. And I think with what with the choir room and you're doing in those 30 minute plus sets, is not, you're not watching a guy who's that you know everything is beautiful and the and the and the and you're wearing a suit and it's snowing behind you and you're you know what I mean? You're watching a guy who's finding it. Yeah. And create and I think that's real. As humans who there's a lot of robot content out there. I think there are a lot of when you see somebody who's a when a human is doing something. Yes. That connects with people's spirit. Because maybe robots don't have soul. You know, so if you can create that soul, I think people robots don't have soul.

SPEAKER_04 1:03:37

Oh my days. Okay.

SPEAKER_07 1:03:39

Yeah, they really don't.

SPEAKER_04 1:03:41

And I think that's why your your worship moments are special. And I before we even hung out, I could sense during that time that it was genuine. And I think that's something that you can't get from AI as an honest, genuine heart expression to the Lord. So, hey, man, you got two brothers that want to see more. I'm sure there are more people who have seen it that want to see more, so keep doing that. But I also want to do some stuff with you here. So some songs here. So I think it's gonna be a lot of fun. Thanks for hanging out, man. Absolutely privilege, man. Really, really, really pleasure. Come on, man. Really, really great. So honored that we got to do it.

SPEAKER_06 1:04:14

Hey, also, when are you gonna get the cowboy hat and the boots? You're in Texas, man. What is going on? I'm still pranking.

SPEAKER_02 1:04:21

I just I'm trying to figure that part out, man. Like, I don't want to fake it. Don't fake it. Because I'm British, bro. Like it. I'm not British, but Nigerian, like, nah, you need to bring some of them over to Yeah, man. I can do a triad. We we we've got these um things we call senators. So they're like, they're like long sleeves and they go down to like your knees. Yeah. And they're like they're like two pieces, but they're beautiful. Okay. So I'm thinking about wearing one to church, some of these. Like from Nigeria or you something? Yeah, I'm gonna, I'm gonna sew it in Nigeria.

unknown 1:04:48

Woo!

SPEAKER_02 1:04:49

Because you have to get it sewn. So I'm gonna I'm gonna get one again. And you gonna lead um Goodness to God?

SPEAKER_03 1:04:54

I didn't think he was gonna say that. In a what's it called? In a senator.

SPEAKER_04 1:04:58

Bro, you better be live that Sunday. I'm gonna I'm gonna send a donation, my tithe and offering to your church that Sunday. We gotta play a game. Let's go. And we did this with Franny on a previous episode, and I grew up calling it Bible Bowl. Yeah. He was making fun of me because he called it something.

SPEAKER_06 1:05:15

Sword drills.

SPEAKER_02 1:05:16

Sword drills.

SPEAKER_04 1:05:17

Do you know what that means?

SPEAKER_02 1:05:18

Yeah, but we call it draw your sword.

SPEAKER_04 1:05:21

This is this is the That sounds kind of violent too. No, it's why would why would they make kids play a game called Draw Your Sword? Sword and Spirit, right? Come on now. I mean, I guess. That's that's Draw Your Sword.

SPEAKER_02 1:05:32

Like, that's the vibes, man.

SPEAKER_04 1:05:34

So, I mean, I think that we should play this game together. Draw your sword. Sword drills. Sword drill, Bible Bowl. Is a game that we play. Y'all might have played this too growing up, where someone calls a scripture, and based on your knowledge of where the Bible verse is, you have to find the Bible verse. Knowledge and speed. And speed, yeah. This is a this is a speed drill. Right. Find the Bible verse, read it out loud as proof that you really found it. So it's not memorization. You can't pull up John 3.16. Hannah's gonna read the scripture. I'm gonna pass out these fresh.

SPEAKER_02 1:06:06

I do want to make a complaint. Okay, what's your it the Bibles is really, really new. You know, it affects the flow. It does. It doesn't. You know what I'm trying to say? Like the speed of.

SPEAKER_04 1:06:15

Well, you gotta get your thumb in there. That's a thumb. You gotta get that. You gotta get that. Yo, I'm trying to win. I'm trying to help you. That's the last tip I'm gonna give you. But I will say, you know, when you have your own Bible, you got bookmarks. That's the thing, man.

SPEAKER_02 1:06:28

I don't. You look like you read your Bible. Bro, the Bible, my Bible's walked with me, bro, through some things. I know. So if I need to get there. Yeah, but for this.

SPEAKER_04 1:06:39

But for this game, I don't care about I'm trying to win. We have to give you a new sword, man.

SPEAKER_06 1:06:43

My bad, man.

SPEAKER_04 1:06:45

A new sword. Woo! Let's go. I'm excited. So you have to. Now wait a minute. You said in the hand, he said they're a little sword. This is like the starting position for us. We'll do this then. Why did they make you start? Because you can't turn open together.

SPEAKER_02 1:07:00

Yeah, so you don't want to. Some people will cheat and be on the edge. So it's like, all right, just stretch your hands out. I like this. I like this. And then you boom.

SPEAKER_04 1:07:08

Got it. Okay. Well, how much winning did you do when you were there? I think he might be a shark. He might be an Olympian. Let's see. Say nothing, man. Say nothing, bro. Okay, so Hannah's gonna give us a scripture. She's gonna count to three, and then we have to find the scripture and read it out loud. Read it out loud.

SPEAKER_06 1:07:26

Okay, she's gonna say the scripture, and then she's gonna count to three, and then we go. That's right. That's right. Okay.

SPEAKER_02 1:07:30

Ooh, interesting. Well, we didn't okay. Thanks for saying that. Because that makes it.

SPEAKER_04 1:07:36

Alright, cool. Okay, Hannah, we're ready for our first draw your sword scripture.

SPEAKER_00 1:07:42

On the count of three, you're looking for Joshua 1, 9. 1, 2, 3.

SPEAKER_02 1:07:52

Oh, okay. Hold on. Okay.

SPEAKER_04 1:07:54

No, no, no, we're not talking about it. Alright. Okay. No, we're just reading scripture. Alright.

SPEAKER_06 1:08:00

Be strong, good courage. Alright. Be not afraid, neither be thou dismayed, for the Lord thy God is with thee. Whithersoever thou goest. Wow.

SPEAKER_04 1:08:09

King James Version, too. That's the Holy Ghost Bible. Now he was distracting me because he was talking. I would have beat you if he had to be a child. You were not supposed to talk during the game.

SPEAKER_02 1:08:18

You're not supposed to talk, but that's what I was trying to say. The Bibles are so new, bro. Some pages are stuck together. I don't want to hear that. It's not an excuse. But but if you hadn't.

SPEAKER_04 1:08:27

Round two. He's over here complaining about the rules. Look, hey, hey, listen.

SPEAKER_06 1:08:31

Hey, swordsmith is getting any sword.

SPEAKER_04 1:08:35

I don't know about y'all. Come on, somebody. The word.

SPEAKER_06 1:08:37

I'm hearing excuses.

SPEAKER_04 1:08:40

Okay. Say less. And are we ready for a second draw your sword scripture?

SPEAKER_00 1:08:46

You're looking for 2 Corinthians 12 9 and 1, 2, 3.

SPEAKER_04 1:08:54

Oh man, see, when you pass it the first time.

SPEAKER_06 1:08:58

And I forgot.

SPEAKER_03 1:09:00

I forgot what she said.

SPEAKER_06 1:09:01

2 Corinthians 1.

SPEAKER_00 1:09:04

2 Corinthians 12 9.

SPEAKER_02 1:09:06

And he said unto me, my grace is sufficient for thee. Uh-huh. For my strength is what made perfect weakness.

SPEAKER_04 1:09:16

Yes, sir.

SPEAKER_02 1:09:16

Most gladly, therefore, will I rather glory in my infirmities that the power of peace may rest upon me.

SPEAKER_04 1:09:25

You got in there. Says the word of the Lord. You got in there. You got in there. Okay. I slipped. I had it.

SPEAKER_06 1:09:31

I was in 2 Corinthians. I saw you. And then I put it up. Oh, that's embarrassing.

SPEAKER_04 1:09:35

I flew past my exit and it was all the way in James. And by the time you flip back, I ran it. I knew that I knew if I could feel it.

SPEAKER_03 1:09:42

And you read the verse like somebody don't know the word.

SPEAKER_04 1:09:44

Come on, man.

unknown 1:09:45

Come on.

SPEAKER_04 1:09:45

Did y'all have people that read the scripture for the pastor while he was preaching? 100%. He'd be like, somebody pull up uh John 3.16, be like, read. For God. Uh-huh. So loved. Uh-huh. The word.

SPEAKER_06 1:10:00

Somebody read by himself. They would say, pause. Hold on. Yeah. And I'd be looking at the verse. He would say, hey, we're going to read these 10 verses. And based on how many times he had the reader stop, I'm like, we're not going to get through it today. We're not going to be honest today. He's got seven points. He's on point two. Verse one of eight.

SPEAKER_02 1:10:18

We're not going to, we're going to be here a while. So back home in some churches, we had an interpreter. So you had the pastor pause in. Oh. The interpreter. So the person saying in English, and then interpreter in another language. So we're like five minutes deep and it's just in the beginning was the words like five minutes later, bro. It's going to be a long time, man. It's going to be a long time.

SPEAKER_04 1:10:39

Okay, one more. Wait, what's the score? Am I I don't have one yet. Oh Lord, I'm getting away. No pressure, bro. We should have called it Bible Bowl. I would have won. Okay.

SPEAKER_06 1:10:49

I don't think the title of the game.

SPEAKER_04 1:10:51

We're calling it Bible Bowl. So skill level. We're calling it Bible Bowl. All right. Let's go. Round three. Hannah's giving us a scripture.

SPEAKER_00 1:11:01

You're looking for Isaiah 40, 31 in one, two, three.

SPEAKER_06 1:11:09

Oh, y'all, y'all.

SPEAKER_02 1:11:14

These pages, y'all. These pages, y'all. But they that wait upon the Lord shall renew their strength. Hallelujah. Come on, come on. If they shall mount up on wings, yes, as eagles. Woo! Come on, come on. And they shall run and not be weary. Yes, sir. And they shall walk and not faint. Come on, come on. Come on. Can I get an amen in the woo!

SPEAKER_04 1:11:32

Look, you knew that. Bam, bam, hold on, bam. Hold on, man. Hold on, man. We gotta move on. We gotta move on. We gotta move on. Bro, have you seen this app out there?

SPEAKER_02 1:11:43

I don't know.

SPEAKER_04 1:11:44

It's called Who Triggers and it's a live trick. Anytime you say something good today, one of us is gonna back you up with a whole band. You gotta say good. Is that freak?

SPEAKER_06 1:11:53

No! No! That's what I asked earlier.

SPEAKER_04 1:11:57

Stop free. Tell them how much it costs. It costs 25 bucks a month. But it's worth it. Hey, it's one of these preachers that. Months? Hey. It's one of these. But look. Hey, at this point, at this point, they need to give you a free subscription the way we've talked about them. Y'all are actually really great, and I've used you a lot. Hallelujah. And I'm I am inviting you to be a sponsor on this podcast. If you want to donate to sponsor this podcast, I have thousands of people are being ministered to and blessed by what's happening in this room tonight. Come on, somebody, lift your hands. Come down to the altar and send me your email address to be sponsored.

SPEAKER_07 1:12:34

Great!

SPEAKER_04 1:12:35

Oh my goodness. Link in this in the description. Okay, but I gotta go back. Talk to me. He knew what that verse was about to be. Oh, he did. When she quoted the address, he got quick and in his spirit. Wow. That must be a verse you know about. 100%, man. You know about that verse.

SPEAKER_02 1:12:52

I read that at least like, I don't know, once or twice a week. Really? It's just necessary. Especially in this season. I'm sure we'll get into it. Looking onto the Lord for strength and like wisdom and just a gay buy. Yeah. We need that. That's crazy, man.

SPEAKER_04 1:13:06

We were talking the other day about that game is really fun. Yeah.

SPEAKER_06 1:13:12

And by the way, did he did he just win?

unknown 1:13:15

He did win.

SPEAKER_06 1:13:16

But you know, we had talked earlier about like we gotta give the guest. Like, we this guy can't fly from London and Texas to come here and lose. We were like, we gotta give him a chance. God bless you. Appreciate it, man.