Grown-Up Church Kids

Grown-Up Church Kids is a podcast for anyone who grew up in church and is still figuring out what to do with it.

Hosted by Dwan Hill and Shama Mrema, the show blends honest conversation, humor, music, and storytelling as they unpack faith, culture, and the realities of growing up in and around the church. From choir stands to church politics, from deep belief to hard questions, nothing is off limits.

It’s real, it’s reflective, and it’s for anyone who’s ever asked:

What do I keep, what do I let go of, and where is God in all of it now?

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Grown-Up Church Kids

What If God Doesn’t Heal Me?

May 17, 2026 • Dwan Hill • Season 1 • Episode 7

0:00 | 1:08:46

Trip Lee was 19 years old when he was diagnosed with chronic fatigue syndrome. He has never fully recovered. And in that body he has pastored churches, raised a family, and written some of the most worshipful music in Christian hip hop. In this episode of Grown Up Church Kids, Dwan sits down with Trip to talk about what it costs to follow Jesus when your body won’t cooperate, what it felt like to grow up caught between two cultures, and what he believes about a God who hasn’t said yes yet. His new album For Your Glory is out now. This conversation will stay with you.

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Grown Up Church Kids is more than a show, it’s a full-circle moment where Sunday Morning Meets Real Life. Bringing together community, conversations, shared stories, and songs that shaped a generation, this is a space for Grown-Up Church Kids to reconnect with their roots, redefine their journeys, and celebrate the faith together.

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SPEAKER_06 0:00

So if you don't have enough faith and you're not healed, it's your problem.

SPEAKER_04 0:03

To this day, almost 20 years later now, that's the hardest part of every single area of my life. It's been the hardest part of following Jesus. Hardest part of my marriage. Hardest part of my work. That's why I'm not pastoring now. It's been the hardest part of parenting. You know what I mean? And it's certainly been one of the things that has been like, okay, God, I trust you. And though, even as I trust God, there are seasons where I'm like, I know you said this is for my good. Um, and that's not what it seems like right now.

SPEAKER_06 1:05

Well, it's that time again. We have a special friend, in this case, a new friend, uh, I get to meet for the first time today. He is a Christian hip-hop artist that I'm sure you have heard of with a brand new record out called For Your Glory. And uh his songs have been going everywhere. I've seen so many clips and not just of music, but of his preaching. I found out he's he's a pastor, uh, started churches, and uh, I'm really honored today to have the guest of well now family, I think he's gonna be family, of grown-up church kids put those hands together and say a hearty amen for Brother Trip Lee. Pastor Trip Lee. Hey, hey, what's up? What's going on, man? Thank y'all for having me, man. What's up, man? I I'm just gonna say, just to be honest with everybody, we just met. Yeah. Like literally. I appreciate that honesty. I am curious though, meeting the Lord at 14, 15. How old are you now? 38, you said?

SPEAKER_04 1:53

Yeah, 38, yeah.

SPEAKER_06 1:55

That's a lot of life between 15 and 38. Yeah. That um I'm assuming all of it wasn't amazing. Some of it was probably beautiful. Maybe all of it was beautiful, but maybe some of it was pretty hard.

SPEAKER_03 2:07

Sure.

SPEAKER_06 2:08

Um you can choose how much you want to share here, but I'm just curious, what are some things that that were hard for you as someone who knew the Lord at a young age and then had to wrestle with maybe disappointment, maybe illness or sickness, parenting, what what what has happened in that span that has been hard?

SPEAKER_04 2:29

Um, one thing is that was happening immediately after was, again, most of my friends are like, we Christians too. But when I started to, um, when the Lord started to change my heart a little bit, it it there was some like some new things to navigate in relationships. I remember like I got back to school after summer, and somebody was like, this girl was like, hey, like, you seem different. And um, I'm like, I'm like, no, it seemed like something different. I remember my friend was like checking out a girl, I was like, no, I'm good. He was like, bro, what are you doing? He's like, though, I'm we all Christians. You trying to be like a super Christian. And um, and I had to like decide, like, oh, wait, is this for real for me? And um, it seemed like, oh, people okay with me liking Jesus. As long as I didn't like him enough, that should do what he said. And then once it's that, then it makes it kind of awkward for everybody. Nobody hated me. Nobody was like, in my school, nobody was like, oh, we don't want to be around Christians, but it was like, why are you making things weird? Why are you like trying to be the Superman instead of just Christians like the rest of us that I had to navigate? Um, but God was gracious, kept sending people into my life. Um, I would say one thing too, like when I was 19, so after my first year of college, I didn't go to Bible college because I found out you didn't have to do math. So I went to Bible college.

SPEAKER_05 3:47

And um, by the way.

SPEAKER_04 3:49

Yeah, yeah. Where did you go to college?

SPEAKER_05 3:50

I went to a Bible college too. What? Holmes Bible college? Okay. Yeah, it's in Greenville. Did you have to do math? No, sir. Okay. Praise the Lord. Secret, secret hack, okay.

SPEAKER_04 3:58

Yeah. Um, there are other reasons you should go. But but um, how was I going to? Oh, yeah, yeah. So I I went to a Bible college in Philly. Um, and after my first uh semester, I got back to school and I was just feeling awful. Um, I wasn't really sure what was going on. I was sleeping 18 hours a day. I was still exhausted for the other six hours of the day. Went to the doctor. They're like, oh, we think you have a virus. Take this, you're good. Long story short, after doctor, after doctor, after doctor, they're like, I've tested you for everything. You have chronic fatigue syndrome, there's not much we can do. Try to eat good and live healthy rhythms. And um, yeah, to this day, uh almost 20 years later now, that's the hardest part of every single area of my life. It's been the hardest part of following Jesus. Hardest part of my marriage, hardest part of my work. It's why I'm not pastoring now. It's been the hardest part of parenting, you know what I mean? Um and it's certainly been one of the things that has been like, okay, God, I trust you. And though, even as I trust God, there's seasons where I'm like, I know you've said this is for my good. Um, and that's not what it seems like right now. And so, God, I need you to help me not see this as something that's gonna keep you from doing what you want to do in my life. Because the Bible's clear, it's like actually your trials are how God is doing what he's gonna do in your life. Um, and that's hard to hold on to, you know what I mean? And so there's seasons where I'm like, I think I'm doing a good job fighting for joy in the midst of that, and then seasons where I'm like, I think I'm spending far more time feeling sorry for myself or thinking, like, oh, if only I had if only I had a healthy body, then I could, ABC. Then I could like Lord, just give me a healthy body, and then I can and um obviously the Lord is like actually this is how I want to use you.

SPEAKER_06 5:44

Wow. Um this is a current situation, wow, for 20-something years.

SPEAKER_04 5:49

Almost 20 years now.

SPEAKER_06 5:51

Wow. How do you you're writing Christian songs, you have pastor to church? How do you do that? How do you stay in this in a Christian space that's got a lot of conversation about healing and a lot of prayer for healing? Sure.

SPEAKER_04 6:09

Um how do you do that? Um sometimes it's hard. Sometimes there are people who are very well-meaning who are like, hey, did you think about praying? It's like, you know what? 15 years in, I didn't think to pray. Ask God. I keep reading about Jesus healing people. Wow and I didn't, you know. Um, or there'll people be like, oh, just acupuncture. No, just do acupuncture, you'll be good. I had a dude tell me, oh, I had a I hadn't forgiven my father and it led to some illness. You just need to forgive your father. I had a great relationship with my dad. So you know, so there is that sometimes, and there's sometimes where people are very in a good way, I think, praying for my healing and are expectant that I'll be healed immediately. Yeah. Um so they check in. Yeah. Yeah. Or they're trying to give, want me to have the same immediate confidence that I'll be healed immediately. And I feel like, well, I feel like the confidence that I have is that God is willing and able. And if he doesn't heal me, it's because he has something better for me than my body being healthy right now. Um and I have to be comfortable to sit in that and to believe that. Um, and to be thankful for my brothers and sisters who want me to be healthy and whole. Wow. While also saying, I hear what Jesus is saying about healing differently than you do. Wow. Now, do you have the luxury to feel like that that I don't have right now? Maybe. Maybe if you were in my situation, you would ask a few different kinds of questions. Um, but yeah, but this is what I see Paul doing too. You know, he's like, I asked the Lord once and he said, no. He said, My grace is sufficient. I asked him a third time. I pleaded with him. He said, My grace is sufficient for you. And so that that is that's been a passage that I've looked at over and over and over again. This made me feel like, oh, whenever God doesn't say yes, he's saying, My grace is sufficient for you. Um, and that's not the answer we always want. So we're like, no, no, no. Can I have your grace and or can your grace work like this instead? Um and so it is a, I think there was a time early on, and this may be a party answer question too, like trusting Jesus as a teenager, loving Jesus, him growing me, a mess, stumbling around, but growing. I think I thought, like, oh, it's gonna be this.

SPEAKER_02 8:16

Yes.

SPEAKER_04 8:17

I'm gonna look more like Jesus every single day. Yes. I'm gonna uh navigate the world better every single day when really it's like it's a lot more messy than that. Yes. And um, I feel grateful that the Lord has helped me to see that. Yeah. Um, that it can be a lot more messy. I want to look more like Jesus now than I did then, and I want to be growing, but it's not this like beautiful man. You know what I mean? I remember I was in this room one time with these, it was a bunch of dudes talking about a bunch of pastors, and it was a dude in his 50s, and he was at it was like, oh, how can we pray? And he's praying for lust. Now, this is probably I was probably like 25 at the time, and he asked them to help pray for lust, and I'm like I'm like, You you in your 50s? And I'm like, well, obviously, people in their 50s are still sinful, but it occurred to me in a new way, like, oh it's not like as we grow, we like graduate fromever like wrestling or struggling.

SPEAKER_05 9:08

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 9:08

And obviously that's true. But for some reason that moment I was like, it's not this like little, okay, I graduated seventh grade. I ain't gotta worry about seventh grade no more. Right. Now I'm about to graduate, I ain't messing with algebra, no, I moved on.

SPEAKER_06 9:20

Yeah, I mean, um, it's been but I I think it's been marketed like that sometimes in church where sanctification or holiness does feel like a uh progress bar.

SPEAKER_03 9:32

Yeah, bro.

SPEAKER_06 9:33

You know, 2025, I'm 30%. 2026, I should be 31, you know. And I do believe that we should be growing. Amen. Don't hear what I'm not saying. I think we should be growing. But sometimes I don't know if our metrics are the same as God's metrics.

SPEAKER_03 9:48

Amen.

SPEAKER_06 9:49

And it's encouraging to hear your story of faith and trust in God in the middle, currently.

SPEAKER_03 9:57

Yeah.

SPEAKER_06 9:57

Like you could have just told me a story, like, man, five years ago, you know, God did this for me and He brought me out.

unknown 10:02

Yeah.

SPEAKER_06 10:02

And I would have given you the organ.

SPEAKER_03 10:03

Yeah.

SPEAKER_06 10:04

But you chose a story that's like, actually, I'm walking through this right now, 20-year journey, 20-year wrestle. And I think there are more people that need to hear the, I shouldn't say more. There are people that need to hear that.

SPEAKER_03 10:14

Yeah. Yeah.

SPEAKER_06 10:15

Um, because they have been told that their faith is congruent to their healing. Yeah, that's good. Yeah. So if you don't have enough faith and you're not healed, it's your problem.

unknown 10:27

Yeah.

SPEAKER_06 10:27

And I'm not saying that's impossible because I think Jesus sets a precedent for that faith and healing are connected, but not congruent. There are other forces and plans and things that are present and active in our lives that don't determine whether or not we are healed.

SPEAKER_03 10:43

Amen.

SPEAKER_06 10:44

And so thank you for being honest about that. Thank you for sharing that your story is one of grace. Because there are people here that are walking through a high grace, high grace season.

SPEAKER_03 10:56

Yeah.

SPEAKER_06 10:57

Um, whether they think about it or know it or not.

SPEAKER_03 10:59

Yeah.

SPEAKER_06 10:59

Yeah. Um, what would you say to someone who is dealing with chronic sickness and illness as a believer? Not, not, of course, you that don't know Jesus, our message to them was you need to meet the Lord. But for those who have been walking with the Lord or just met the Lord, and they can't figure out why their bodies aren't looking like what they think they should look like. What would you say to them?

SPEAKER_04 11:22

Yeah, and you know, this is something I gotta have to say to myself a lot is I think we can we can think of all the ways that we want to be faithful, we want to be obedient, all the ways we want to honor God if we were healthy or if this obstacle wasn't there. And it's like, man, God, can you? And it'd be good dreams. It'd be like, well, God, if I didn't have this and I could this, this, and this. And I would just encourage them, when God gives you commands, they're not based on if you had the body someone else had, or if you didn't have the limitations you had. He's talking to you about what faithfulness looks like for you in this season. And so don't like delay your faithfulness or delay your dreams or to delay your obedience or the people you want to love. You could be like, nah, my neighbors, I could love them much better if I had more energy and I could have coffee with them every week. It's like if you don't have that, then you need to figure out can I have coffee with them once a month? Can I have coffee with them once every six months? Don't keep tying it to when I get healthy, then I can figure out how to be faithful and obedient to God right now. Wow. He's not measuring your faithfulness based on someone else's strength. But you're like, he knows you, he knows what your limitations are. Wow. And um, yeah.

SPEAKER_05 12:29

Follow-up question to that too. What can those of us like, how have you felt uh the the best as your friends and family have supported and like encouraged you? I my dad had cancer, and I remember um as he was like like wasting away and we prayed and we believed, yeah, the majority of my interactions with him were even my phone calls. Well, how are you doing today? Well, how are you feeling today? Yeah, and looking back on it now, I'm like, man, I wish I would have just talked about other stuff. Like I feel like I was so uh obsessed with the I was waiting to hear the miracle. Yeah that we I could have just I should have just picked up the phone and we should have just talked about, man, what have you been reading or watching or enjoying? Yeah. And I think there's a part of me where I'm like, I think there's a how how do you walk with someone struggling and make the most of your relationship without offending them. Yeah, yeah. That's a good question.

SPEAKER_04 13:31

No, I I think that's a great question. And I can tell that that's a question that comes from like sincerely reflecting on them because I think when something bad is happening in someone's life, that is the thing that's most apparent to us. And it's not from a place of not caring about them, it's because we care about them. We're checking in on that thing that seems like the priority. But, you know, often there's some people I talk to every time we talk to be like, How you feeling today? And it's like, you know, uh, bad. I don't feel good today. And that's okay. But um, but there are some times when when you're the one who's not feeling that, you also feel a little bit of pressure to like make other people feel better. And it's like, I'm not doing that good, but the Lord is at work and I'm trusting him and I'm doing okay, I'm navigating. But there are more things going on in my life than just that. So that can always lead. And um, and I think it's just a way of loving the whole person to be like, like I think it's a fair question, be like, oh, well, how can I also take consideration of who they are as a whole? They have other hopes and dreams, they have other things that are bothering them, they have stuff that they just enjoying. What you watching right now? Or how can I prep you besides that? Yeah, um, and then also letting people still serve you when they're in a time of trial so that they're not just the project, but they're a full human who also God is commanding them to do things too. Like you're a whole person, you know what I mean? But that's stuff that we learn from walking with people, bro. Yeah, that's stuff we learn from just being with people, um, yeah. And um and being okay with the discomfort of a horror situation.

SPEAKER_05 14:57

But I grew up in a in a Pentecostal situation. I I have asthma. And my mom doesn't even like hearing me say I have asthma. Yeah. Even that's even that you don't receive that. I'm like, I ah, okay. I got I'm struggling, but God will. I experience asthmatic symptoms from time to time. But yeah, there is a and I and I think I had a spirit of mucus in this area. I had adopted that that mindset of like, no, you yeah, this is temporary. Yeah. And the thing was, even for my father, it was not temporary.

SPEAKER_03 15:32

Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_05 15:33

Yeah. Yeah. Um and I and I think there I've had a lot of conversations with people who've who have struggled and um who've walked with people who've struggled. I'm like, man, we don't have good language or theology to to love and talk about this.

SPEAKER_04 15:51

Yeah, yeah. And I I was reminded by a sister recently uh at a conference who was giving a talk about um sometimes when we also are feeling the need to say something, whether it's I'm praying for you, an encouragement, somebody in trial, it's sometimes it's a lot more about our discomfort about sitting in a hard thing than it actually is about serving them. Sometimes we gotta get to a place where it's like if the way I feel good about this interaction is I walk away, like I gave him the encouragement he needed. Yeah, he's doing better because I was there. If you can just like go be with someone and be present and like be okay with the discomfort of whatever's going around, yeah, you're just able to be present with them in a more healthy way. And some so some of that is us being comfortable with, like, yeah, maybe God is healing. Yeah, maybe not yet, but you're a whole person with a whole, you know what I'm saying, life going on.

SPEAKER_06 16:37

Yeah, yeah. Um that's really interesting. I my family has had some challenges in health as well. Yeah, and when you come up in a Pentecostal situation, it's hard to adjust your theology not to fit the situation, but to receive the actual character of God. That's good, yeah. Like some people see that switch from I have asthma to I experience asthma as like you doubting God. Well, no, I'm not doubting God. I just I I maybe have made an idol of my perception of who God is, and I haven't actually learned who God is. Yeah. I mean, you read the Bible, we were just having fun with, you know, I don't know a Bible character that didn't get a word from God that was confronting.

SPEAKER_03 17:24

Yeah.

SPEAKER_06 17:24

Or didn't walk through a situation that would be categorized as suffering.

SPEAKER_04 17:28

Bro, Hebrews 12, uh, Hebrews 11, Hall of Faith, and you know, you know, Zab was Enoch, Moses, you know, Rahab. Yep. He gets to the end of the chapter and he's like, all these died without having received the promise. Sheesh, man. I'm like, if all the heroes died without receiving the promise, why are we like, no, no, no, but I I'm getting the promise now.

SPEAKER_06 17:50

That's crazy.

SPEAKER_04 17:51

Um that that is the common experience of the faithful followers of God. Yeah.

SPEAKER_06 17:57

Um maybe it's a result of our our individualistic microwave kind of character current character of God being, He's gonna answer all my genie plans right now.

SPEAKER_03 18:11

Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_06 18:11

And uh, you know, that's just it's not who God is.

SPEAKER_04 18:16

I do think your reflection just then was really helpful though, because you're saying it's tied to, it's not just people are not just like, no, we just rebuke sickness just cuz. It's because they are seeing it as something that's tied to how much we believe God. Yes. And that helps us to be gracious with people who we think maybe you're not seeing the whole picture. Yeah. So instead of being like, yes, get out here with you. It's like, no, no, no. When they hear me say that, this is what they hear. Right. And so this helps me to navigate. Right. And even say, like, and when I say that, I'm not saying that. Right. I'm just saying that I'm acknowledging what's happening, but I'm not doubting God. I know God can't, you know, it helps us to not just be like, right, they don't like this. So they like, y'all don't believe. That's right. And then we like, oh, but you you don't really understand who it's like. Yeah. We can actually understand what each other's.

SPEAKER_06 19:00

Yeah, yeah. And meanwhile, God is healing a lot of people. Amen. So it's like as soon as one camp says, Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, hold on, he'll he may never do it, God raises somebody from the dead. And then as soon as that camp is like, he heals all the time, he's like, bro, I've been sick for 15 years. I I think part of the good from Romans is like, that ain't y'all's job to select who's gonna get healed and who's not gonna heal. It's y'all's job to trust the Lord and trust that his plans and his ways are higher and good, and love your brother in the meantime. Yeah. Like our responsibility, I think, is to be like, hey man, I'm so sorry that you don't feel good. I'm so sorry, man. How can I help you?

SPEAKER_03 19:38

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_06 19:38

How can I use the blessing either in health or finances or time to help you? Meanwhile, you're not helpless. That's right. That's right. Like you, your response to me is like, hey man, how can I help help and pray for you in the strength that you have? So no one is left out of the economy of faith. It's like we all have something to bring. And when we all bring, it's almost like God's purpose to build the church through whatever grace you've been given.

SPEAKER_03 20:04

Amen.

SPEAKER_06 20:05

In the current season you're in, rather than waiting on the healing or being pompous about the healing you received. It's like, I got a hole in my life, you got a hole in your life. I probably have a gift to fill your hole, you have a gift to fill my hole. Yeah, yeah. And that would, that's what church should feel like. I feel like Pentecostals have strengths and holes. Yes. And Baptists have strengths and holes, not just individually, but as organizations. Yeah, man. Pentecostals are great at believing God for healing. We're great at declaring the word of God. We're great at saying God's gonna do it. We're not great at mourning and sorrow.

SPEAKER_03 20:38

Sure.

SPEAKER_06 20:38

We're not great at lamenting and sitting in pain. Some other people lament too much. Yeah, yeah. They cry too much. It's like y'all can smile and praise God and believe for healing without feeling like you're a joker. Yeah. Yes, bro. So anyway, that's good. I got on a soapbox for six seconds, but I just I just feel like we miss God when we use our own experience as a new standard for God's holiness.

SPEAKER_05 21:06

I heard uh uh one of my Baptist friends say, he's a pastor, he said, you know, I'm Baptist, but when I need prayer, I don't ask my Baptist friends. Like I call my Pentecostal friends. They can pray you out.

SPEAKER_04 21:18

I was like, oh yeah, they will pray you out through, up, down. The more charismatic a church is, the better the hospitality is, too. I take it. Yeah. Food. Hospitality be good.

SPEAKER_03 21:29

Yeah, that food be kicking.

SPEAKER_04 21:30

I'm like, oh, yeah, I'm understanding something about loving people. Yeah.

SPEAKER_05 21:33

That everybody's not good. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Baptist people will take you to they'll take you to a Mexican restaurant. Yeah. A strip mall. Shopping plaza.

SPEAKER_06 21:42

That's crazy, man. I do want to say one thing for those who are like caregivers or spouses of those who are sick or those who take care of someone. Um, I've been in that position. It's something my wife and I talked to. My wife, praise God, is feeling a lot better, but she's gone through a lot of health stuff too.

SPEAKER_03 21:59

Yeah.

SPEAKER_06 22:00

And for the first time too not too long ago, I said, honestly, when I come home, I don't know if I want to ask you if you're okay. Because I don't want to hear no. I don't want to hear, well, actually I'm still sick, or actually I'm still. And it was hard for me to actually tell her, I don't want to I sometimes talk to you.

SPEAKER_03 22:18

Yeah.

SPEAKER_06 22:18

I don't I don't want to hear that you're still going through. And it was a hard conversation, but a beautiful one. Yeah. Yeah. Because she could encourage me. That's right. That's what I'm saying. Like, even though she was feeling this the physical pain, I was feeling the emotional strain of being a caregiver and taking care of her. But I didn't want to make her situation worse by saying, I'm tired because you're sick. I would never say that to a cancer patient, man, I'm so tired today. They're like, join the club.

SPEAKER_03 22:47

Yeah.

SPEAKER_06 22:47

But I do want to give people space to say being a caregiver and taking taking care of someone, having emotional effort is something that you can be honest about.

SPEAKER_02 23:01

Yes.

SPEAKER_06 23:02

And you can express to someone, if not your spouse or the person you take care of, to someone.

SPEAKER_02 23:06

Good.

SPEAKER_06 23:07

I would actually say you have to.

SPEAKER_02 23:08

Yes.

SPEAKER_06 23:09

Because I think if you don't uh acknowledge your weakness and your dependency, even as a caregiver, you will you won't be well enough to take care of the person you actually love.

SPEAKER_04 23:19

That's good, bro.

SPEAKER_06 23:20

And you'll you'll waste away with them rather than being a support. So I just want to say that to some folks who maybe feel kind of stuck.

SPEAKER_03 23:26

Yeah.

SPEAKER_06 23:27

As um taking care of someone, first of all, you're not stuck. What an honor it is to love someone and to give your life for someone who can't give that care back.

SPEAKER_03 23:38

Yeah.

SPEAKER_06 23:38

That if there was ever a picture of Christ, yeah, is I'm not asking you to pay me back.

SPEAKER_03 23:42

Yeah.

SPEAKER_06 23:42

I'm doing it because I love you.

SPEAKER_03 23:44

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 23:44

My wife is sitting back there, she may be shedding a tear.

SPEAKER_06 23:47

Oh.

SPEAKER_04 23:47

Because this is all, you know, but this is stuff that me and her have had to wrestle through too. So I think what you're saying is I can think of uh I can think of a particular season in our life where what you just said would have been life-changing for her. So I think what you said is super helpful.

SPEAKER_06 24:00

Cool, cool, cool. Well, shout out to the awesome people, taking care of awesome people.

SPEAKER_04 24:04

And and would have been life-changing for me too. Because there's some conversations we had that was like, oh, yeah, I was annoyed that I saw your mood shift when I wasn't feeling well, but considering what that does to you. And it's because you love me that it's so draining, it's hard on you. You know what I mean? So that's super, that's super helpful. Yeah, man.

SPEAKER_06 24:22

Yeah, man. Praise God for the grace for all involved.

SPEAKER_03 24:26

Yeah.

SPEAKER_06 24:27

Um, we need grace for all. Well, I'm gonna ask you a question. I hope this doesn't offend you.

SPEAKER_03 24:31

Yeah.

SPEAKER_06 24:32

Because you said you grew up in a black church. Yeah, yeah. Are you black? I am. All black. People used to ask me, was I black? Yeah.

SPEAKER_05 24:41

My wife asked me that. My wife asked me, is Duan black? She's white for content. I was like, you didn't.

SPEAKER_06 24:47

Come on. Duan is black. Come on. Sweet. Did you defend me? Yeah, I was like, what was your criteria and reasoning to tell your wife that I was black? Look at his hair texture.

SPEAKER_05 24:58

I'm like, look at his hair. That's black.

SPEAKER_06 24:59

Hair texture is a dead giveaway. Yeah, he's like skin. Notice I didn't ask him that question.

SPEAKER_04 25:05

I didn't ask if he's like, some things can go unspoken. You know what I mean? We're listening.

SPEAKER_05 25:10

You gotta go to YouTube right now to get the context. We're all white, by the way. That's what makes this conversation even. Those guys sound real white, man.

SPEAKER_06 25:17

I thought they were all I asked that because um when I was growing up, yeah, my light skin was a thing. Yeah, yeah. And I'm at I haven't honestly, I don't know if I've ever had this conversation with anyone else other than my brother. Yeah. But I not only culturally felt between, between I went to a gospel church, black gospel church. Yeah. Went to an all-white public high school.

SPEAKER_03 25:39

Okay, yeah.

SPEAKER_06 25:40

But I've never thought about my actual skin, yeah, is in the middle between black and white. And people would accept me, depending on the group I was in, yeah, based on like my code switching talking, or the clothes I had on, yeah, or the music we listened to. I just I'm just putting that out there to be like, help me. What what's your story about that? Have you always known I'm all I'm black, black, black? Have you been torn? What's up?

SPEAKER_04 26:06

So what one thing is with who my father is, who my father was, um, there's no way I could be anything but black, black. Um my dad, you know, um, you know, my dad protested civil rights movement while he was in college. You know, it's very important to him. His dad, you know, was like the first black man to operate certain kinds of machinery in Houston. My grandfather, William Lee Bearfield I, I'm the third.

unknown 26:31

Wow.

SPEAKER_04 26:32

He's 100 years old, turned 100 years old last year. Wow. And you know, you don't appreciate how old? He's 100. Wow. Your grandfather was born in the roaring 20s. Sheesh. He's a hundred years old. Lives by himself, he's fine. He's doing great, still driving. From roaring 20s to roaring 20s. Yeah, seriously.

SPEAKER_06 26:52

Or something else.

SPEAKER_04 26:52

I'm like, sometimes I ask him, I'm like, you've been through a lot, like, but this is crazy, right? Like, this isn't normal. Like, was the Great Depression. I'm like, nah, we all in our third. That don't matter. But I'm like, but you a hundred. You a hundred. This is like, this is crazy, though, right? Uh he's the only person who can speak on. I know. I know. Sometimes I just call and be like, hey, did you see?

SPEAKER_05 27:15

Wow, man. So funny.

SPEAKER_04 27:17

But anyway, I just say that to say, no, I, and you know, I I went to a uh mostly white private school too, from like second grade till I graduated high school.

SPEAKER_02 27:28

Okay.

SPEAKER_04 27:28

So it wasn't like, when I say that, it doesn't mean like, oh, I was never around white people. I didn't know how to even navigate white culture. That wasn't that wasn't the case at all. Um, but yeah, me being light-skinned, but um, Amber who braids my hair, I was just, she braided my hair yesterday. She always making light-skinned jokes. I had a good friend growing up, she called me Light Bright. I had to say it, my one of my best friends, like when I send him like praying hand emojis, he's like, oh no, you gotta go back one shade. That ain't dark enough. And he used to do it so much, I'm like, I can't thumbs up nothing, bro.

SPEAKER_06 28:00

I can't live. The amount of time I spent picking my emoji on my new iPhone is embarrassing. More than more than 20 minutes. I was like, shade up, shade down. Summer version, winter version. That's what I mean. I just go to the very end.

SPEAKER_04 28:17

That's right. When he would say stuff about my hand emojis, I would just send, you know what I mean? Like dark moon emoji. I would just send him this.

SPEAKER_02 28:25

This shoe. Hey, here it is.

SPEAKER_05 28:27

I've been going too light on my light skinned friends. That's what I'm saying.

SPEAKER_06 28:33

Well, what's funny is there's no white version. It's yellow. No. So I'm like, Apple, y'all need to figure out your Apple. Y'all need to figure out your colors. There's more people than yellow, uh, and brown and black.

SPEAKER_04 28:45

That's funny.

SPEAKER_05 28:45

Dwight speaking, speaking, begging for emoji representation. We need to represent it on my iPhone.

SPEAKER_06 28:54

I mean, it's it's real though, because I think a lot of a lot of culture tries to put you in a box and like you are defined by your parents. You are defined by your church, by your school, by your occupation. And it was hard for me. I didn't, I, I didn't always know where I fit in.

SPEAKER_03 29:11

Yeah.

SPEAKER_06 29:12

So hearing your story, I'm like, they called you, bro, they call me light bright at school, bro. You think that's funny?

SPEAKER_05 29:19

I'm laughing at you. He's really blessing him.

SPEAKER_06 29:24

It actually was, it actually was very. I didn't notice that it was a thing until I left. Yeah. Put it that way. My brother and I, if I was in a group of white people, I was like, I'm white. Group of black people. I would literally have Birkenstocks on at school. At that time, it was like only white people were Birkenstocks.

SPEAKER_03 29:43

Yeah.

SPEAKER_06 29:43

Then I'll put on my Fubu sweatshirt for church because of all black church.

SPEAKER_03 29:47

Yeah.

SPEAKER_06 29:47

And I would literally change outfits from school to church.

SPEAKER_04 29:51

Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_06 29:51

Because I didn't know how to fit in the two groups.

SPEAKER_04 29:53

So you know what's interesting? And my kid, my wife is white, my kids are mixed. And I wonder how much of the racial identity, I just wonder how different they'll be for my kids. Because how old are you? Oh, I'm 40. So I'm like, I'm 38. So there was like less overlap with cultures. You know, like I think the black dude show wearing Birkenstocks now, it's not gonna be quite the same thing. You're right. It's not as segmented. Like I was talking to my son, and you know, my son, he got this whole little friend group, all the little black boys in that grade, and they all love anime. They love anime. I'm like, when I was, when I was 13, maybe you accidentally watched Dragon Ball Z when it was on. But now it's the channel. But and I I hadn't watched any. I've watched way more anime as an adult than I did as a kid. I just wasn't into it. Wow. It was just in a different space. I feel like black dudes love anime more than your average person. It's just, there's some interesting cultural shifts that I'm like, I would, I just wonder what that and my kids are mixed. Uh I just wonder what that dynamic is gonna be like for them.

SPEAKER_06 30:57

But and when did black people start watching anime? Like, who was the first question? You know how you black have black history months? Yeah, but they letting us do other stuff now. You know what I mean? I uh we out here now, we like anime.

SPEAKER_05 31:11

Man, way back in 2017, Jamarcus stumbled upon one piece.

SPEAKER_06 31:17

Jamar Jamarcus, bro. His name is not Jamarcus. Wow.

SPEAKER_04 31:23

Um, yeah. I mean, Lil Wayne was, he did that for skateboarding. I think that's when black people are like, oh, I can skateboard. Yeah, he has face tests. If he has face tests and a skateboard, then maybe I.

SPEAKER_05 31:34

Then maybe I. The pioneering skateboarding for African Americans was Lil Wayne. Like, there's somebody skateboarding today, probably loves the hobby. Like, let's all get wheezy. Yeah.

SPEAKER_06 31:49

Well, both of you all, my brother is married to a white woman. She's incredible. Shout out, LA. You both are married to white women. We talked about a little bit with some other guests as well. Um, do you feel like our time now is more accepting of that because it happened more, or do you feel like we kind of just push the door open? It's like, I'm gonna marry who I love, y'all gonna deal with it. Or do you feel like there's more support and understanding for that now?

SPEAKER_04 32:21

I think there's more support and understanding for that now. Now, what an interesting time culturally where it feels like depending on what the main cultural conversations are, there's some stuff that is kind of swinging right and left. Yeah. But I think definitely there is. You know, I you look at, you mean you watch an NBA game, it's like, I don't think there's a fully black person on the court right now. It's like, you know, never thought about it. It's a lot of mixed dudes and it's a lot of Jalen's. You know what I mean?

SPEAKER_05 32:47

There's a lot of Jalen's Jalen's.

SPEAKER_04 32:49

What does Jalen mean? Jay Jalen is just one of them names that has Jalen's the main rich biracial boy name. That is the primary name. Yeah, why? I think by law you're forced to at least consider Jalen. If you're not. No, I but I do think there is uh more acceptance of it. It's um it's less of a shock. We see it happen more often. I think there's more kind of cultures that combine, depending on how young you are. But you know, I've been married for uh uh almost 17 years now.

SPEAKER_06 33:17

Congratulations, man.

SPEAKER_04 33:18

And there were, yeah, there were certainly times within families or friend groups where it was like Yeah, you sure you want to do this? Yeah, we had to navigate.

SPEAKER_06 33:28

When you brought your wife to meet your family for the first time, yeah, was the what was the vibe?

SPEAKER_04 33:33

So um the vibe was uh cautiously optimistic. Now the prime the primary issue was can she cook? Nah, nah. No, because I was so young, yeah, that was that was the big conversation. The big conversation was you in college. Uh when I got engaged, I was 20. And we got married when I was 21. Still in college.

unknown 34:00

Wow.

SPEAKER_04 34:00

So the first time she came home, I was probably maybe I was 20, 19 or 20. Wow. And so my dad's like, he's mainly like, hey, slow down, you don't know who you are yet.

SPEAKER_03 34:10

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 34:11

But there is like a, hey, uh, you know, he would make this joke. He's like, oh, my mom always used to say, Don't bring home nobody who can't use my brush. And he would make this joke. And there was like racial jokes he would make, and I mean it was, it was funny. But it wasn't like a oh, we gotta feel this. It was more like, oh, this isn't what we thought was gonna happen. Yeah. That's interesting. Yeah, let's warm up too. Yeah, yeah, yeah. But my wife is so great that I mean, it was probably could have been it was probably 30 seconds with people's wondering that, and everyone just left her immediately.

SPEAKER_06 34:40

So when I met you five minutes ago, uh, one of the first thing I noticed who was in charge was your wife.

SPEAKER_04 34:47

I said, Are you the manager or the wife? I need you to strike this from the podcast.

SPEAKER_06 34:51

We know it's true, man. We, you know, the Bible says the man is ahead of the household, but I think I think the Lord was just being nice to us and just telling us, yeah, but you know who's really in charge of your house. My wife is, and she deserves to be in charge.

SPEAKER_03 35:04

Yeah.

SPEAKER_06 35:05

If something happened to all three of us, I think our families would be okay. Oh, yeah. If something happened to my wife, sure.

SPEAKER_04 35:12

Where do we get food from?

SPEAKER_06 35:15

Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_04 35:16

Like, how do we I mean, yeah.

SPEAKER_05 35:18

So shout out to the wild be like, where do you go? Where do you go? Hootie blows? I know for contact, I believe. Um I was gonna ask, like, how often does race come up in your raising your kids in your household anyways? Like my house? Yeah.

SPEAKER_06 35:31

Uh more often than maybe other houses, only because I go, my family goes to an all-white church. Okay. And so my kids are now starting to ask the questions.

SPEAKER_03 35:40

Yeah.

SPEAKER_06 35:41

They now see people not just him and her, but as black and white. Like, what? They'll say, oh yeah, the black lady we saw yesterday. It's like, that's interesting. Like, we never said she was black.

SPEAKER_03 35:51

Yeah.

SPEAKER_06 35:51

They're starting to notice that. But because my brother is married to a white woman, it's not foreign to have people around us that look different.

SPEAKER_03 36:00

Yeah.

SPEAKER_06 36:01

But their language has changed. And that's what's kind of been surprising to me is that without me telling them, yeah, they are starting to notice that people are different. Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 36:10

One thing, especially because I went to this, you know, private school growing up. I remember one time it was like four black boys in my grade. And this teacher was like, uh, Andre, I mean, uh, Jeffrey, uh, whoever you are, right? And um, but when stuff like that would happen, I had already had all these conversations with my dad that like prepared me that that was gonna, that kind of stuff was gonna happen. So I already kind of knew how to process it. And so it's made me want to like front load some of those conversations for my kids. Not in a way that makes them like suspicious of people, Lord, but just so they're not surprised. I want them to be more curious and not surprised.

SPEAKER_06 36:45

Yeah, that's great, man. And it's been good. That's great. Yeah, that's great. Um, so when when did you meet the Lord and when did that become something that was real for you?

SPEAKER_04 36:52

Yeah. Like I was saying, my family would go to church. Um, yeah, somewhat regularly. The one of the ways I know we weren't there every Sunday is because when we would go to when I would go to children's church, I didn't know all the songs and the hand motions, and they was doing all the stuff, and I'm like, you know what I mean? Um, but one of those times when I went, there was uh, you know, there was one of the like, hey, if you want to go to heaven, repeat this after me. And um, you know, in my little five-year-old mind, it's like, hey, just say this, like, God, God, my bad, my bad. You know, going through the thing. And it's like, hey, yeah, if you prayed that you are a Christian. And so I'm like, I didn't, I don't know if it worked. And so I like said it a few more times just to make sure it took. My bad prayer. Yeah.

SPEAKER_06 37:40

Come to the front. It starts with a God. Hey, God.

SPEAKER_04 37:44

And just my bad, my bad. And just like the sermon thing, I'm sure it's just my five-year-old brain, I'm just not processing what's happening. You know, so I like I repeated those words, but yeah, I do not think I was a Christian, bro. I, you know, I didn't understand the gospel at all. I didn't, it's not like I needed a master's level understanding. I just don't think I had a clear picture. God's really good. My sin has separated me, and I need that sin to be cleansed and paid for, you know. And so I went on just assuming I was a Christian. And Dallas is like a, especially when I was growing up, it was just really churchy. And so everybody I knew said they were Christians. And so I knew people who were really serious about Jesus and said they were Christians, and people who was like, don't care about Jesus that much. I said they were Christians and people who go to church and people who don't. So I, you know, I was confused about what Christian means. And then when I was probably 13 or 14, um, I remember I went to church one time and it was a sign-up for a youth retreat. I was like, I'm gonna go sign up for that. And there was some cute girls in line. I was like, I'm gonna go sign up for that. That's how I was like, and so I did. And I really did go just for social reasons, and it was so bad. This is I'm not joking. My youth pastor gave me like a like a Christian dating book after that first weekend that I spent. He was like, You need this, yo. He knew. He was like, I see you trying to holler at every, you know what I mean.

SPEAKER_05 39:03

Did he give anybody else one? Were you? I was thinking it was just my gift bag along.

SPEAKER_04 39:08

No, no, no, no. It was clear that I was giving a single down. You were targeted. Um targeted ad. And um, and I kept going for social reasons. I had a really good youth pastor, man. He um he was, we're still friends in this day. He um he wasn't just like, he was fun, he was hilarious, but he sincerely he opened up the Bible and preached the gospel of Jesus. He was preaching expository sermons to youth group children. Wow. Um, and uh all that stuff I hadn't understood when I just repeated that prayer when I was six or however old, um, started to click. Like, oh wait, God is really big and holy, and oh wait, oh, like it's not just that I'm not perfect, like I've offended him. And I'm not a good Lord of my life. And um, and you know, in that youth group, the gospel clicked, I trusted Jesus, and I was around 14 years old at that time. Wow, and he was also really gracious because I was also, I mean, I would learn this later. Whatever I did, I just threw, like, you know, my life was turned upside down, and I was like, all right, well, if I'm following Jesus, then I guess this is what we're doing. And I started reading the Bible. My grandmother had given me a Bible when I was a little kid. I tried to read it one time, it was a King James Bible, KJV, and it was like a children of color Bible. So it was like had a bunch of pictures in it too. Everybody was super black.

SPEAKER_06 40:19

Solomon had dreads, Jesus, Jesus had a pick as a resap way. Is this still in print? I need this children of color.

SPEAKER_04 40:26

There's no way it's in print, but I found it in my closet, childhood closet, and I brought it home because it is amazing.

SPEAKER_06 40:33

That's all the illustration. Moses is black, Mary is black. I'm serious.

SPEAKER_04 40:37

I may try to have dreads, yeah, bro. I may try to send, and it was extra, all kinds of extra pivots like Queen of Sheba. It was all kinds of stuff going on. And I'm going to uh Jessica, can you remind me? I'ma when I get home, I'ma find it, I'ma take a picture and send it to y'all. Please read that book. But when I trust Jesus, um I'm like, all right, let me get a translation I can read. And I actually start reading the Bible. Um, my youth pastor would tell me stuff to read, and um man, it changed my life. Wow. I remember the first time I read something, and I'm like 14, 15 years old, and then something happened the next day that that scripture applied to. That moment changed my life. Wow, man. Because I was like, oh this is real. I felt this was just like a I I don't I don't think I would have said it that way, but it felt like uh, oh, this is I'm supposed to do my homework. I'm supposed to like this is what I do to be good. And it was like, oh no, no, this actually is alive and speaking and what's happening in my life. Right. And by God's grace, he just kept sending people into my life. My youth pastor was fielding all my weird random questions. And um, yeah. So shout out to youth pastors, man. This is one of the things growing up at church that I didn't understand is we would, you know, when I would get dragged to church and I was sitting there with my parents, I was confused because I was like, at the end of every sermon, they do the same thing. It was almost like y'all don't have no new ideas, but like every time, like I could tell they're back on the organ and they're like, oh, and Friday night he's in the grave. Like, and Saturday morning, and he's in the grave.

SPEAKER_02 42:05

Right.

SPEAKER_04 42:05

And I'm like, I already know where this is going. I've seen this so many times. Like Saturday night, he's in the grave in the early, and everybody's early. I'm like, how are y'all getting excited again? We just did.

SPEAKER_06 42:16

Again, we did this.

SPEAKER_04 42:17

But what I'm not understanding is like, yeah, no, the death and resurrection of Jesus, that's what all of this is about. But no matter where the sermon started, that's where we end. It's not because they're out of ideas, it's because this is the idea that Jesus died for our sins. I didn't take the got up from the grave. Early. Come on, trip. Early, come on, trip. Early.

SPEAKER_05 42:41

That's good. Well done. I had to. You didn't want to chip. I didn't give you permission. I'm sorry. I'm paying the band today. Hey, can I get an iPad? Can I get my own iPad as well? Bro, that is so good. So true. I like the idea of like this again. That's right. But then now you're like perspective. That's what it's all about. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Why y'all getting excited? We know this. You don't see what it's he did this last week. He pretended. He's not original.

SPEAKER_06 43:18

We've seen this movie before. You're right, man. I mean, it's almost like the older you get, though, the more you wind down into it.

SPEAKER_03 43:30

Yeah, man.

SPEAKER_06 43:30

It's like it's not new information.

SPEAKER_03 43:33

Yeah.

SPEAKER_06 43:33

I don't know if anybody can give us, I mean, I'm sure. I take that back. There's a bunch of information we don't know.

SPEAKER_03 43:38

Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_06 43:38

But I don't know if anybody can give us more information that would convince us of Jesus. Sure. At this point, we've heard sermon and sermon and song and song.

SPEAKER_03 43:49

Yeah.

SPEAKER_06 43:50

It's more to me like the awe and wonder is changing the more I live with Jesus and encounter his presence and read his word. That I'm like, oh that's crazy. That that that gets deeper. Yeah. Yeah. You don't get to the bottom of the well, it just keeps getting deeper. Absolutely. I feel like it's a pretty common story for a lot of people who are gonna hang out with us.

SPEAKER_03 44:14

Yeah.

SPEAKER_06 44:15

Um can we talk about music? Yeah, yeah, yeah. I I've been waiting.

SPEAKER_05 44:19

Okay, okay, okay. But also, yeah, I uh I what did you have a quick can I ask you a question? Yeah, please, please, please. Um a lot of people rap. Yeah, yeah. And I know the answer in short is the Lord.

SPEAKER_03 44:32

Yeah.

SPEAKER_05 44:33

But in a in a world, in a context in which a lot of people are too talented. Yeah. How have you had longevity in creating and communicating and uh evolving? Like one of your last records you didn't you learn to produce, that you produced the whole thing. Wow. Like so you went from hey, I'll rap to hey, I'm also gonna learn to produce. Um yeah, it's it's a marathon. How you ran the marathon of a career where a lot of people stop, you know, sprint. A lot of people sprint.

SPEAKER_04 45:13

Man, um well one, I appreciate that. I um it feels like God's grace, bro. Honestly, um, I tell you, I'm really romantic about creativity, um, and that it just feels like a magical thing, bro. That like God, the creator who creates everything out of nothing, he's like, you know what, my image bearers, I'm gonna let you come up with ideas that don't exist in the world yet and then make them and then they exist. Wow. That to me is amazing. That's just a magic. God lets us take part in that. Um, that there's a song. So this is part of why when someone's like, or when you're like, hey, I used to listen to that song when I was delivering pizzas, it's like, oh, I remember where I was sitting in my dorm room and I was like, oh, I bet this would be cool. I bet this would actually be a helpful song. And I sat and wrote that, and I remember it being dudes who live in a dorm next to me, like, oh yeah, I heard the song you were working on. I'm like, it's not ready yet. Be quiet. But it's like that random little idea that I had in my head, I got to then go make, and then God sent it out places and did things with it. That's just that's incredible to me. And I think um I'm so obsessed and devoted to that process. It feels like God, it feels like a gift from God that I get to be part of it. So it is like if no one ever listens to my music ever again, bro, I'm writing songs every day. Wow. I got um, I have like a I have a folder in my phone of like love songs I wrote my wife. Nobody'll ever hear except her. Um worship songs. I write a Christmas song every year for my whole family. I think it's actually this is gonna be my real legacy because I've written, it's been uh almost 10 years now. I wrote, I wrote a Christmas song for my family. I write verses for every single person. Wow. My mom, my aunt, my kids, my wife. Wow.

SPEAKER_05 46:58

This song 15 minutes long? What is this now?

SPEAKER_04 47:01

Nah, I mean, each time people had new kids and they get a little older, the verses gotta shrink down a little bit. But I'm gonna have to kick some people out. But um, but then I was like, I start putting in stuff about the year. So now we have this like time capsule of each year where we hear like our kids' voices, how young they sound. We're talking about so smart. When I started it, I didn't think it was gonna be quite that, but now it's this really special thing. But I just said that to say um creativity just feels like an incredible gift from God. And um I think part of the longevity thing for me is um I'm still in love with it, bro. There's still new stuff I'm learning. Love that. And I'm just curious. I love to learn new parts of it. When I started producing, and even when I started writing these worship songs for this um most recent project, there was stuff that reminded me of when I was 16, 17, starting to work on my first album, where it's like I'm learning something new every day and um and finding new ways to incorporate it into what I do and like, oh, what if I try this? What if I did this? Uh, that is just like my favorite thing in the world. That's cool, man. And so it feels so I just feel really grateful that God has made space for me. You know, rapping about Jesus, you know, like my dad was like, but how are you gonna make money to live your life? You know what I mean? Which is a fair question. Yeah. Uh and so for God to have let me do it for such a long time, drive my family, get to go around the world and do it, just feels really like a gift and a privilege. Well done, man. Yeah.

SPEAKER_05 48:25

I I love that in a in a world where it it's make content. Make content, show content all the time. I like that you're making stuff for your family. Yeah, well said. You're not reacted, you're not, hey, I'm gonna film my family reacted with the song I made for my family to show the world to go viral that I make songs for my family. You know what I mean? Which is what I'm any social media person would tell you to do, but I'm like, Yeah, the fact you're like, I love if nobody listened to it, I would still make it. Like I'd make music. I love that attitude. I I yeah, I hope and pray that more people have that passion of like I'm doing this. Yeah, yeah. It's from in here, yeah. Not because the algorithm and the analytics, and I hired a team. Yeah, yeah. You know, yeah.

SPEAKER_04 49:16

I um when I was pastoring full time, and so I and I was not and I I was sick, so I it was like it crowded out some of my music time. There was a new thing that happened too where there was a freedom in making stuff that nobody would hear that allowed me to read, just enjoy creating again. Um, and I think making beautiful things for the sake of making beautiful things has value. It has value. There's a lot of value in making stuff that people hear and it blesses people, obviously. I think that's valuable. But there's also beauty in like, hey, God made sounds and rhythm, and then we can like put them together in new combinations and something beautiful happens. That's valuable. Yeah, zebras is always my favorite example. Like I could have just made a regular, but he was like, I'm gonna stripe. I'm gonna stripe that horse. I'm gonna make it striped. Like, God likes beauty. Yeah. Stuff that's like, oh, just because it's beautiful, food didn't have to taste good. Yeah, yeah. You know what I mean? God is like, no, there's actually like beautiful experiences to have.

SPEAKER_05 50:12

And um, then somebody's like, God, what are you gonna do about the giraffe? It's like long neck, that's right. Stretch. Long neck, stretch him. Should it be brown? No, I'm thinking pattern. Yeah. God, this is an obscure looking animal, this is wild. Like, yeah, send them on. Send them, put them in Africa. Yeah, let's keep let's keep going. Then seahorse, bro.

SPEAKER_06 50:30

He's like, put that one in the water. Yeah, but shrink them and put them in the water.

SPEAKER_05 50:33

Curl that tail a little bit. Make that one really stinky. Why? He's gonna be really stinky. People are gonna hate it. I have a plan and a person.

SPEAKER_04 50:41

We have five senses. Just we want to make sure crazy, man. All right, and I want Christians to like love beauty more.

SPEAKER_05 50:47

Yeah, I love that. Oh man, I love that. That's I hope somebody runs with that one. Yes, yes, yes. Yes.

SPEAKER_06 50:54

Yes. Well, there's there's um, I won't call it ancient, but it's definitely older than us. An idea that God reveals himself through truth, goodness, and beauty.

SPEAKER_03 51:02

Yeah, man.

SPEAKER_06 51:03

And I think a lot of people who grew up our ages got a lot of preaching about truth.

SPEAKER_03 51:10

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_06 51:11

Like this is who God is, this is who Jesus is, he died on the cross for your sins. Know it, know it, know it. Um But there are other streams of our faith that focused on beauty. Yeah, like cathedrals are built to tell you how big and vast God is.

SPEAKER_03 51:28

Yeah.

SPEAKER_06 51:28

You know, people would paint their whole lifetime, the ceiling of a cathedral, to demonstrate not truth but beauty.

unknown 51:35

Yeah.

SPEAKER_06 51:35

Um I think one thing maybe that we're s maybe um lacking in our culture right now is beauty for the beauty for beauty's sake.

SPEAKER_03 51:44

Yeah.

SPEAKER_06 51:45

Like this art is not being made to make money or to impress you or to go viral. This art is being made for the glory of God.

SPEAKER_03 51:51

Yeah, man.

SPEAKER_06 51:52

Um and to your point, I think doing that for your family is really special, man. I think that's the goodness part. It's like, it's good to honor your family. Yeah, it's good to sing about Christmas with your family. This is great.

unknown 52:08

I appreciate it.

SPEAKER_05 52:08

Fans dropping singles just for family.

SPEAKER_06 52:10

Just for family, man. Probably the best kind. So for your glory, new record.

SPEAKER_03 52:15

Yeah.

SPEAKER_06 52:16

This is the worship record you're talking about. Yeah. And you wanted to combine hip-hop with worship. Is that the goal?

SPEAKER_04 52:22

Yeah, like I um worship music has obviously had a big impact on me. Um, and I just want there to be more kinds of worship music. I remember there being seasons when I was part of a church plant, urban church plant, super hip-hop influence. We had amazing musicians, so they was like, oh, we can take these CCM songs, make them feel like us, these gospel songs, make them feel like us. Um, but I was like, oh, I wish there was more stuff that just felt like us. Um because some of our sweetest times together as a community would be singing songs together about the goodness of God in church and when we evangelize in small groups. And um, I was like, man, I wish I could write. But at the time I was like, I'm gonna have somebody to send me some trap beats to write worship stuff too. I don't think I have the, and so it was just a thing I always wanted to do. Um, yeah, and so long, that's actually why I started producing originally, is I was like, I need at least like learn to write some chord progressions because my whole life I'm working with, I started producing, I was real little, but then I was like, mm-hmm, he's great at that, let me be good at this. And I would just sit with producers tell him what I wanted. But I'm like, nah, let me learn how to play a little bit, let me learn how to let me understand these things better. And um that's cool. So I wanted to write like congregational worship songs for Christians to sing together, but just the vibes are a little different.

SPEAKER_06 53:33

Wow. Yeah, yeah. That's really great. And you came, I don't know what the right word is, but you know, indie tribe has their thing. Yeah, Cray's got his thing.

SPEAKER_03 53:44

Yeah.

SPEAKER_06 53:44

Did you come up in a group of rappers that that formed you or that you formed?

SPEAKER_04 53:51

Yeah. So 116 with Cray. So when I met show him the tattoo.

SPEAKER_05 53:57

Come on now. Come on, guys.

SPEAKER_04 54:00

So I met I met LeCrae and Tadashi Shobaraka when I was like 15, 16, and they were all in college, and I saw them at a concert. I went to see my favorite rap group, Cross Movement. They were opening for them. I'd never heard them, nobody had. Um, and I was like, oh, this is cool. This is Southern and long story short, built a relationship with them, and they were discipling me when I was in high school and I signed with Reach Records, it was just starting. Um, when I was uh senior high school. Wow. So yeah, so I've been, yeah, making music with Cray and Tadashi and you know, and then reaching, went on to sign lots of others, but yeah, crazy.

SPEAKER_06 54:39

When you look at young artists now coming up in hip hop, yeah, are you inspired, excited, disappointed? Um in terms of like the value of what people are saying, yeah, like content. I'm more concerned about content than I am. Music is subjective. Yeah, yeah. But like, are you hearing young rappers saying something that's worth singing about?

SPEAKER_04 55:02

I I am excited about the music sounding good because it was harder to find a lot of good Christian hip-hop when I first was looking for it. I would go to the Christian bookstore to get CDs, and it might be one or two that was good. You know what I mean? So that that is actually, I think, really important. Um and then in terms of what people are saying, there's this pendulum thing that happens where it's like really explicit, really explicit theological stuff is the only thing we should be rapping about. And then they're like, oh, everything don't have to be like super explicit. We can just talk about life. And there's this like pendulum thing that can happen that can go back and forth. And I want all of it to exist. I want Christians to make music from an authentic place and wants to honor God and wants to do good in the world. And I want there to be raps that are explicitly talking about Bible and gospel truth.

SPEAKER_03 55:54

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 55:54

And I also want there to be raps that are talking about creativity and marriage, trials. Um, yeah. I don't want us to box it in too much. Yeah. So one of the things that I I want just, you know, you have a uh you have a C.S. Lewis and you have people writing Christian. I mean, C. S. Lewis did both, but you know, he did Narnia and he did mere Christianity. It's like both of those things are really useful.

SPEAKER_06 56:17

Yep.

SPEAKER_04 56:17

Um, and there's things that Narnia is doing that mere Christianity is just not gonna do. So true. Um, and vice versa. So I want all of that to exist. Yeah. So I just want Christians to be. So I but I don't want us to get to a point where we think the super explicit stuff is not cool or it's right. And I think there's a thing happening right now where people are like, yeah, the leaning away from it, it's not doing what we think it's gonna do. Um and I think it'll be good for Christian hip-hop if we remember the times that we've had these conversations already so we can keep learning from each other and just find faithful ways to do it. Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_06 56:51

Are you imagining that churches will be singing your arrangements in their church? Is that the goal? That is the goal. Really? That is the goal. We gotta, we gotta, what can we do, Shama? At your church. Do we talk to the worship pastor? We should. I'll talk to him. Tell him, tell him that we have a new record. Trip, Madison Ryan Ward. I'm it's a great song. It's a great wait, is that the video where y'all are in like around flowers? Yeah, yeah. Are you playing kids? Yeah, yeah. It's a beautiful one. My wife sent me that video. Yeah, yeah. That thing is crazy. Thank you, man. It's really good. Yeah. She's crazy. She's incredible. She's so sweet, too. Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 57:25

I don't know if that's gonna work at my church though, but uh No, but it but here's the thing is like there are some of them that I can imagine more easily than others. Yes. There's um, but then there's some of them where it's like, okay, well, if we uh if if production-wise this feels a little off, I'm trying to write them in such a way where it's like these melodies, yes, these progressions, this content can live anywhere. Yeah.

SPEAKER_06 57:47

Well, I'm saying it should work at my church. Yeah, yeah. But I think some people are not they're not open to it like they should be.

SPEAKER_03 57:54

Yeah.

SPEAKER_06 57:54

I mean, think about it, man. People gather for worship and on Sunday morning. I kind of want to walk in on a you know what I mean? Yeah. I just want to be that's fine. That's a church I want to go to.

SPEAKER_03 58:06

Yeah.

SPEAKER_06 58:06

But for some reason our minds, it has to be solemn and sober and down, even sad. Yeah. Which we need that sometimes, but that's right.

SPEAKER_04 58:14

But we need we need all of it. Yeah. I think we like think worship and we think, oh, this sound, these pads, very airy, airy pads. Right, right, right, right. You know, sustain core, let's stay here for a while. Yeah. You know what I mean? Yeah. And it's like, no, but that's what, that's how we think of it right now. But that's there's a lot of different things happening culturally, and a lot of different things happening in uh different times all over the world.

SPEAKER_03 58:34

Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_04 58:35

I read something, like one of the reforms once we came up with music notation and like church music was doing more harmonies and stuff. And there were like some of the reformers who were like, what's all this harmonies? This is distracting from what we're doing. All this little new music y'all are doing, unison. Let's just sing this truth in unison. And it's almost, it's like we're gonna keep having these conversations over and over and over. What we think is the thing that must be this way to honor God and to worship Him together. I just want us to think a little bit more broadly than that. Wow. And I want us to really value singing together. It's not a thing that we came up with, it's what the Bible commands us to do. That's right. It's an important part of your discipleship and your growth. That's right. If you're showing up late for church because you don't want to sing the songs, Jesus is calling you to get there on time, to sing songs to him and to one another. Come on, Pastor. Come on, Pastor. It's good for our souls and it's good for others.

SPEAKER_06 59:29

So do you think you'll ever pastor a church again? Is that a desire in your heart? I'm I'm I'm looking at your wife though, because I feel like she she's got Where are you going?

SPEAKER_05 59:38

Hold on, come back.

SPEAKER_06 59:39

I feel like I stepped on something that maybe should just just back out of. But personally, yeah, do you think you would ever maybe outside of all the I that question is loaded with like location, but as a gifting, yeah, as a desire, do you think you'll ever and I will say when I think about it personally, I it's very hard for me to um divide that from how my wife feels about it too. Because answer, Pastor Tibby. You see, he did good.

SPEAKER_04 1:00:04

He did good. You know, I um I think if there's something that I feel called to that doesn't bless my family, then I'm not called to it. Woo! I'm her only husband, I'm my kids' only dad, and I can't be like, oh, I'm called to this, so y'all need to figure it out. Wow. I'm called to, y'all. Wow. And so these are not separate questions. Wow. And that's part of it is my health, and if I can in a healthy way for myself, my family. Um, because the church means a lot to me, man. God's church is so important. That's why I was pastoring, that's why I made all these sacrifices with my music career to try to do it. That's why I tried different ways. So I'm very open to it, but the Lord would just have to show me how I can navigate it in a way that's healthy. But it has actually been another one of those things. It was like, oh, you start pastoring, then you just off into the sunset, pastoring all the time.

SPEAKER_05 1:00:50

Where it almost was like off into the sunset to collect seashells.

SPEAKER_04 1:00:57

It felt like almost like, oh, if I stop, yeah, then I failed at pastoral. It's like, oh, I tried and I failed. You know, I had a friend one time that was like, hey, I know you talk about this season, you think about all the things that are really hard, um, the ways you wanted to be more consistent with stuff outside of preaching, you know, the ways you we he's like, but that's not what I think about in that season at all. I think about these people whose life was changed the way you're preaching. I think about the way our church grew and how I thought about this. I think about ABC, you know. Wow. So that was that season. Wow. That's what faithfulness was like then. Right now, it doesn't seem like that's what faithfulness looks like. But I'm like, if there's a season where there's a way to navigate faithfully, then I I've been following you for a while, and I remember when you announced, hey, I'm gonna be I'm gonna be a teaching pastor at the church.

SPEAKER_05 1:01:45

I thought, interesting. And then you posted some clips, I even watched some sermons on YouTube when y'all posted them. And I was like, man, he you're a cool guy. You talk cool, and uh, you're up at the pulpit, and I'm like, we need we need people like we need different looking sounding people as pastors. Yeah, we had a pastor on a previous episode on the show, and we're like, yeah, but when you say pastor, you have one I don't think of triply. Yeah, but you saying that you grew up in that church, getting an education, and then going back to pastor, I'm like, yeah, no, we need you pastoring in that church. Yeah, and I think that's cool. Like that's really cool. I appreciate that.

SPEAKER_06 1:02:32

It's really cool. Yeah, it feels like some artists are using pastoring as their retirement plan.

SPEAKER_05 1:02:39

I I told you that in confidence. Oh. I was like, I'm doing the comedy thing, but just to say dry up, I will be a campus pastor. That's it. I didn't think you were gonna bring that up. That is that's hilarious. So terrible. Come on, man. Why are you outing me like that?

SPEAKER_06 1:02:56

I didn't say your name. He's building his communication skills.

SPEAKER_05 1:02:58

Yeah, learning how to work a room. Yeah, it's the same thing. I was looking at him when it finished. Yeah, come on.

SPEAKER_06 1:03:05

So you feel convicted is what it is. I don't even look at it.

SPEAKER_05 1:03:07

A little bit. I have said that's my retirement plan. So you say that I'm like, oh man.

SPEAKER_06 1:03:12

Don't make that your retirement plan. Don't make that your plan. But we have to see. I don't, you know, I say that as a joke, and I don't mean that to be to put shade on anybody's calling. Yeah, but I do think we should be careful to keep the pastoral call an honorable um call from God or God's people and not a career shift.

SPEAKER_05 1:03:35

Amen.

SPEAKER_06 1:03:36

Amen. Couldn't agree more.

SPEAKER_05 1:03:37

Amen.

SPEAKER_06 1:03:38

And I feel the pressure myself. I'm I'm talking to myself because you know, I'll I'll be frank. Like it seems easier to plant in a location where you get a check every week. Yeah. Consistent benefits, all the things, and you do it for those things when praise God for those things. Yeah. I'm grateful to be a worship pastor. I'm not a lead pastor, I'm a worship pastor. So I get some of those benefits. But I think the temptation is to do it as a job and not as a vocation.

SPEAKER_03 1:04:06

Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_06 1:04:07

And I'm speaking for myself and my friends to say, let's keep vocation, vocation.

SPEAKER_03 1:04:12

Yeah.

SPEAKER_06 1:04:12

If God wants to pay you for your vacation, vocation, and vacation. Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 1:04:17

I believe in vacation time.

SPEAKER_06 1:04:20

If God makes a way for you to get paid while you're doing your vocation, whether it's music or comedy or whatever, yeah, praise God.

SPEAKER_03 1:04:26

Yeah.

SPEAKER_06 1:04:27

Um, but I think the temptation of the of the American Western situation is that I'm doing it for the benefits in the retirement and the and the package. And I think that's where unknowingly we sign up for um hurting ourselves, our families, and the people that are looking to us for spiritual nourishment.

SPEAKER_03 1:04:47

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 1:04:48

Um, and if you don't already love God's church, you're not passionate about God's people and him alone, you don't want to then go serve them because that's the job that's open for you. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. So that's, I mean, it's part of that is a good word for us, you know, who are serving Christian things, other places is like, yeah, like be locked in, love the church. If you're not part of a church, you shouldn't then go work at a church. No. And don't nobody know you at the church. Then you'll start a church. Yeah, like nah. You just like start stuff. That's different.

SPEAKER_06 1:05:18

Do you love the, you know? Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah. Trip, this has been awesome. Yeah. I'm really grateful we got to hang out today. I'm so encouraged by your music, but most importantly, your testimony, man. I I feel like I really have been, I've seen another part of God through your story today. And obviously getting to meet your wife. And I can tell already that, I mean, she's been the most attentive person, not on a podcast that we've had.

SPEAKER_03 1:05:44

Yeah.

SPEAKER_06 1:05:44

I mean, she's been locked in this whole time. Yeah, she's dope. So you gotta, you gotta help meet over there. Um, and man, thank you for your faithfulness all these years and serving God's church, and thank you for making music for the church. Um, I'm sure you had conversations that maybe try to discourage you. Against doing that, but thank you for doing it. Um and just praying for you, man. Praying for for strength in your body, strength in your ministry, and the favor of God to bless you, bro. Thank you for for coming here.

SPEAKER_05 1:06:12

I appreciate you being the soundtrack of my college work days.

SPEAKER_03 1:06:16

Yeah.

SPEAKER_05 1:06:16

And uh I'm sure you're not gonna share them with me, but I'm inspired to make singles for my family at Christmas time as well.

SPEAKER_03 1:06:24

Yeah.

SPEAKER_05 1:06:24

I can't wait. I got four kids, and so I'm gonna I'm not good at music, but you know what? I'm gonna figure it out. Yeah, I'm gonna figure it out. And uh I'm not gonna post them. It's just gonna be you can't hear them anywhere. It's just gonna be for the family. I loved it. Oh man. Put it on cassette tape. Yes. Oh man. That's dope. You gotta, I'm at I'm in my trunk. I'm at the trunk at my in-laws' house. Like, guys, get your don't send a minute.

SPEAKER_06 1:06:47

Because he's burning CDs currently. He is in this day and age, in the in in even now. Exactly the question. Somehow I couldn't find a disc drive if I tried. Somehow he had, man.

SPEAKER_05 1:06:59

Walmart's got disc drive.

SPEAKER_06 1:07:00

He had pawn a CD drive from the pawn shop down the street, plugged it into his 2026 laptop. Yeah, and is and is making somebody's name.

SPEAKER_05 1:07:11

My brother made me a lot of 116 mixed CDs back in the day. I'm sorry, man. I owe you some money. No, that's what I'm trying to say. It's fine. I owe you or Le Cray a couple of coins. You a lot of coins. Matter of fact, we had a lot of CDs. It's fine. A lot of CDs. No, but more than anything, man. I I I really, really appreciate creating something beautiful for the sake of creating something beautiful. Yeah. That really spoke to me. Yeah. And uh that's I just haven't heard anybody speak about creating like that in a really long time. Yeah. And uh, and I really appreciate that. That's really inspired. Yeah, I appreciate it. Bless you, man. Thank you all for having me, man. Absolutely.

SPEAKER_06 1:07:56

Man, thank y'all for checking us out today. Um, check out Tripp's new record for your glory. Yep. Uh, and I encourage you, worship pastors, man, try it at church. Try it at church. There, I'll guarantee you there's somebody in your church who's gonna be very grateful that you tried something new. Um, and so try that out. Check out the record, check out all the resources we have in the description. Like and subscribe to the channel. If you're listening on Apple Podcasts or wherever you're listening, thank you for doing that. Share with your friends. Also, I get to do a song, a special song with Trip, available nowhere else except here at Grown Up Church Kids. It involves um an organ and one of his new songs. You're gonna want to check that out. Anyway, God bless y'all and uh thank you for watching.