Grown-Up Church Kids

We grew up in church. Should we stay?

• Dwan Hill • Season 1 • Episode 9

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Did you grow up in church and now wonder if you should stay? In this episode of Grown-Up Church Kids, Dwan Hill and Shama Mrema talk about pastors’ kids, church culture, childhood faith, ministry pressure, deconstruction, grief, and what it means to follow Jesus as an adult. If you’ve ever wrestled with church, Christianity, spiritual burnout, or the faith you inherited, there is room for you here. Grown-Up Church Kids is where Sunday meets real life, where there’s more of us than you think, and where stories are better than sermons.


00:00 Should Church Kids Stay?
01:07 Welcome to Grown-Up Church Kids
02:44 Growing Up Around the Pulpit
04:24 First Church Memories
06:17 Church Every Single Week
10:37 Black Church and Public School
12:23 Sheltered Church Kid Moments
18:09 Gospel Church vs CCM Church
20:50 Shama’s Missionary Kid Story
24:53 When Church Changed a Family
26:09 Church Planting in Tanzania
29:03 Pastor’s Kid Pressure
32:12 Choosing Faith for Yourself
35:21 Fired From Church Ministry
38:26 Old Church Kid Pictures
40:41 The Cost of Ministry Commitment
46:00 Trying to Be Perfect
47:58 Dwan’s Salvation Story
50:08 Childhood Faith as an Adult
53:21 Faith When Parents Get Sick
55:34 Wrestling With Disappointment
57:19 Grief, Joy, and Seasons
1:00:24 Deconstruction and Returning to Faith
1:01:56 Trying Church Again
1:04:03 Don’t Give Up

ABOUT THE SHOW:

Grown Up Church Kids is more than a show, it’s a full-circle moment where Sunday Morning Meets Real Life. Bringing together community, conversations, shared stories, and songs that shaped a generation, this is a space for Grown-Up Church Kids to reconnect with their roots, redefine their journeys, and celebrate the faith together.


There are more of us than you think.


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More from Dwan Hill

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Website: https://www.dwanhill.com/


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YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/c/AfterSchoolProgram

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Website: https://www.shamamrema.com/


More from Grown-Up Church Kids

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Website: https://www.grownupchurchkids.com/


More from The Choir Room

YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/@thechoirroom

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Website: https://www.choirisback.com/


CREDITS:

Director & Editor: Kyle Whittaker

Producer: Hannah Gifford (Open Hand Management)

Production Assistants: Sarah Bush, Abby Loomis

Audio: Garrett Miller, Aaron Rochotte

Video: Seth Scruggs

Video, Photo & Social: Jordan Rubino

Management: Annie Cunningham


#grownupchurchkids #dwanhill #shamamrema #thechoirroom #faithjourney #churchkid



SPEAKER_00

Having a pastoral degree, getting fired as a student pastor, and going to church on a Sunday, the following Sunday, I was like, oh, this is the first time I've ever been like a member of a church since I was 11. And that was that was very, very different.

SPEAKER_01

The epitome of embarrassment is the pastor's kid coming down and saying, I'm not a Christian. And I was like, nope, nope, not gonna do it, not gonna do it. And it just got to my throat. It was like beating in my head. If I say no right now, I know that I'm I know enough about God. I've been in church long enough to know that if I disobey this moment, I'm deliberately saying no to God. And I can't do that. And I think there's a lot of people right now coming out of deconstruction and are willing to trust God and say, I know everything I learned as a child wasn't perfect. I know my life is not perfect, but there is something about Christianity that I just can't get away from. And that takes humility to be like, I just posted six videos online tearing down church so-and-so, but I think I should maybe reconsider, you know, Christianity again. Well, praise the Lord, everybody, and welcome to Growing Up Church Kids. My name is Duane. I'm here with my co-host, Shama. Shama, and uh, we're having fun in church today, man. We are.

SPEAKER_00

We I like that you kicked this off with praise the Lord.

SPEAKER_01

Yes, yes, yes.

SPEAKER_00

Because that reminded me of my wife had a one of her best friends growing up. Whenever they answered the home phone, they had to say Jesus is Lord and then say their name. Jesus is Lord. This is Hannah. That's the greeting. Yeah, that was the greeting. Yeah, did you have a did you have a cheat?

SPEAKER_01

We did, well, first of all, we screened our phone calls. We didn't we didn't answer the phone very often. But um at church, when we said praise the Lord, everyone else in the congregation said praise the Lord.

SPEAKER_00

Okay, okay.

SPEAKER_01

It was almost like a call and response. Yeah. Make sure you're awake, make sure you know the Lord and you're saved. But a phone call is wild, bro.

SPEAKER_00

That's why I'm gonna start answering the phone now. Hey, Jesus Lord, this is Shaman. You're gonna be like, What? I mean your insurance guy. And I'm like, yeah, but Jesus is Lord. Say it back.

SPEAKER_01

I bet you that text on green do not know that Jesus is Lord.

SPEAKER_00

They do not.

SPEAKER_01

If that text comes through as green, they do not know. Jesus is Lord. It's the worst, man.

SPEAKER_00

Android shade off the top on this episode.

SPEAKER_01

Man, I'm I'm glad you're here. And I feel real churchy right now because I'm I'm it's funny, we're sitting in the pulpit right now, and we were not allowed to run around the pulpit as kids. We couldn't even get on the pulpit. I mean, it was like considered holy ground.

SPEAKER_00

Oh yeah.

SPEAKER_01

Oh yeah. Like you you you either were in the congregation on a pew or in the fellowship hall or in the choir stand, but never where we're sitting right now. So I feel like we're kind of we've been ordained. In a way, you're a bishop.

SPEAKER_00

Somebody needs to bring us juice with a napkin on it. To be honest, I don't know, I don't know if I'm allowed up here.

SPEAKER_01

Well, based on your life experience or what you did this morning, which one?

SPEAKER_00

No, based on my based on my uh I'm a I'm a comedian, man. You're okay, you're a little holier.

SPEAKER_01

You work at a church. I work at a church, but that don't mean much these days. That don't mean much, Shama. I'm glad you said that.

SPEAKER_00

I'm glad you said that and not me.

SPEAKER_01

Well, this before we get into too much trouble at the guy, this is what this show is about, is remembering stuff like that, man. The pulpit as a kid, growing up in church, and also realizing that we're adults now. You're married, you got kids. I do. I'm married, I got kids. And it's it's one thing to be a kid in church, it's another thing to raise a kid in church. And I don't know if everybody knows our story about being raised in church. So I feel like this this episode today is gonna be about two things. Number one, what was it like to grow up in church for the two of us? And then two, what are we doing now, man? Yeah, like what's our what's our what's our face journey now? Um you go first. You go first. Yes, please. Okay, okay. Where do you want me to start? Like conceptually. I don't know much about that, but uh Oh man.

SPEAKER_00

Duan's the real comedian. No, I mean you're your I'd say your earliest religious memory.

SPEAKER_01

I just gotta say, yeah, I love that you have a red cover on your microphone because it probably smells terrible. Do you know this is I think it's what it is? It's a brand new one.

SPEAKER_00

Garrett, are these new?

SPEAKER_01

Okay, we used to we I'm sorry to interrupt you, but we used to have these on our mics in the choir, and they smell like death.

SPEAKER_00

You can't, you gotta soak them and bleach or something.

SPEAKER_01

They would never watch them. It was it mole was probably on the inside. Oh, yeah. I just need y'all to know these have a special anointing. Yeah, these are on this microphone, someone will be safe.

SPEAKER_00

Oh man, I remember that. Yeah, you'd get a microphone. You'd take the my brother and I we used to run sound at my dad's church when we were like 12 and 14 in Tanzania. Yeah, and man, yeah, those we we started washing them. Thank you for washing these things. But then the black mic covers would turn pale.

SPEAKER_01

That's how much we watched them, dude. Oh man. Yeah. I'm glad y'all watched them. We did. We had. But I said that because people might be wondering why we have these bright colored throwing it back.

SPEAKER_00

Throwing it back, man. But throwing it back. When was the last time you saw anybody using a colored microphone cover in a church? Not unless they were really, really knew what they were doing.

SPEAKER_01

They didn't do that. But you just you you glossed over a couple things. You said you ran sound at a church. I did. In Tanzania. In Tanzania, yes. We got to come to that, man. We will. I need to know that. We will. You were asking me a question. Okay.

SPEAKER_00

What is your earliest uh uh clearly religion, yeah, spirituality was a part of your life. Like, when did you realize, like, okay, this is this is the thing that we're doing in this family.

SPEAKER_01

I don't remember a time where it wasn't a thing we were doing. Okay, you know what I'm saying? Like, I I feel like I was at church within days of coming into the world. You know what I'm saying? Like, we didn't skip a Sunday. I don't you gotta understand, man. My family, we went to church on vacation. You know what I'm saying? It's like you're gonna find a church somewhere. So also, if you were sick, you definitely have to deal with church because you gotta get healed.

SPEAKER_00

That's what you're healing is no sickness. This is coming from somebody who did skip church recently because he was not feeling good. Now that's that's that's that's different, man. I can't even tell my mom that.

SPEAKER_01

Yeah, it's like you're either resting or you're going to get healed.

SPEAKER_00

Or you're going to get healed.

SPEAKER_01

Or spreading your germs. Which one is it? Yeah, man. We were in church all the time. But so my grandfather, both of my grandfathers were pastors. My grandfather on my mom's side was a Pentecostal pastor, and my grandfather on my dad's side was a Baptist pastor. And they're and their churches were like two hours away from each other in Virginia. Wow. So it was really cool though, because honestly, that I didn't know anything different. People grew up playing, you know, playing basketball. People grew up, you know, whatever your life childhood situation was, basketball or sports or whatever. Ours was church, man. Yeah. We played basketball at church. I learned how to play piano at church.

unknown

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01

And um kind of days are we logging here? Sunday morning, Sunday evening. Sunday morning, Sunday evening minimum. So let me just tell you my Sunday schedule. Get up. First of all, you iron your clothes on Saturday night. You don't know about that. Yeah, what you want to do? So first of all, you don't know about ironing. See, people don't do this no more. They used to get up and they take their clothes out the older week. And just wear wrinkled clothes together. Nah, nah, you ball it up and you toss it in the dryer. Nah, man. People, yes, yeah. We we would literally starch our white shirts Saturday night. Oh, you're talking. Iron them out, hang them up, so that when you wake up the next Sunday morning, you're good to go. You were in that box. You're saying it was like a stiff, stiff shirt.

SPEAKER_00

Ooh, it felt good though. Can't bend your elbow.

SPEAKER_01

It was so clean.

SPEAKER_00

So clean. My mom used to iron on Sunday morning, and I'd take the shirt off the ironing table.

SPEAKER_01

So I'd wear this hot, yeah, like a hot shirt. That's kind of nice, though. That's kind of nice though. Um, yeah, so our clothes were ready to go the night before. Sometimes, you know, Sunday morning. And then we have oatmeal every Sunday morning. My mom made the best. I made the best oatmeal. Grandma too. And then we would go to Sunday school. After Sunday school, we might have a little snack, and then Sunday morning service. That Sunday morning service would at last, you know. Just last. It would just last. Minimum two hours. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00

And I mean current church now is two hours. Y'all were putting in two hours on the appetizer.

SPEAKER_01

Yeah. I mean, two hours was if, you know, we had a somewhere to be. But that I mean, I mean, my grandfather would preach for an hour. I mean, minimum preach for an hour. Sunday school. Well, no, we have Sunday school for about an hour and a half. Okay. And then we would start service at like 11:30 and then have like a three-hour service with a one-hour sermon in between. But then we would have food. And of course, you could smell the food being cooked while he was preaching. So you'd be like, All right, you gotta now granddad, we uh we hungry, we gotta eat. And uh and then we come back Sunday night for like five o'clock service. And that I mean that five o'clock service was every week, but sometimes we would have like a three o'clock anniversary service at somebody else's church, get in the van, drive across town, have church somewhere else, and come back to my granddad's church. Wow. So Sunday was crazy. I don't know how I did homework, I don't know how I read paper, wrote peppers. I don't I don't know how I did that. Um but we did we did that on Sunday, and then Monday was usually kind of chill, chill for obvious reasons. And then Bible study was Tuesday or Wednesday, choir rehearsal was Thursday or Friday, Saturday was usually chill, and then we started over again. So rural Virginia, man, farmland everywhere is where we were. And then my family eventually moved to Memphis, which is the Mecca of a denomination called the Church of God in Christ. It's a Pentecostal church.

SPEAKER_04

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01

And uh and so in Memphis is where we would drive 45 minutes to go to church every week, every weekday for rehearsal that we had rehearsals, 45 minute drive one way, so hour and a half, two, both ways. And um that's what we did, man. I didn't know that any of this was weird.

SPEAKER_00

Let me ask you, did you ever interact? Did you go to public school?

SPEAKER_01

Yes.

SPEAKER_00

So you interacted with non-church every day.

SPEAKER_01

Every day. And on top of that, our churches were all black, and my public school was 90% white.

SPEAKER_00

Okay.

SPEAKER_01

So I don't know if we talked about this, but I would have on like black folk attire, suits and shoes, and you know, like ties and what's the thing you put on your cuffs? Cuffs. To go to school? No, to go to church. Okay, okay. I was like, these white people were shocked at you. Funny story though. Yeah, uh what we had picture day, picture day one time, and my mom wanted us to dress really nice.

unknown

Oh, man.

SPEAKER_01

But she didn't want us to dress down, so we I got to wear a Grant Hill Detroit Pistons jersey over a starched white church shirt. That was like my fifth grade picture.

SPEAKER_00

We got to drop that picture. We need to find that picture.

SPEAKER_01

I'll find it. I'll find it. Um, yeah, man, my mom wants us to look good, and she should.

SPEAKER_00

Now, did you when you interacted with people? I'll tell you, so I grew up, I went to public school, kindergarten in first grade. Yeah. After that, I was in Christian private school. After that, I was homeschooled. Wow, you had everything. I didn't interact with non-church people my age. Wow. Until man, maybe I was like 15 or 16. Wow. I remember the first time I heard somebody my age cuss. And I just thought I couldn't believe man, and he was like a he was a missionary kid like me. And I was like, dude, I didn't know we could do that. Like I just never interacted. Yeah, I just thought, damn, this kid, this kid cussed and he and he didn't get struck by lightning. Like, that's how sheltered I was. That's crazy. So people were like, oh, so-and-so's, you know, they're smoking.

SPEAKER_01

Yeah. Whoa. Yeah. Why? Where? Who? Okay, time out. Have you cussed before? Yes. Okay. Because I haven't. Whoa. I'm just I'm just asking because I'm trying to figure out. And it's not because I'm holy. He set me up. It's not, it's not because I'm holy. It's because I don't want to go to hell. Okay. Um, when I've never I've never been dunked on like that. Have you ever cussed? Yes. Well, I haven't. Well, at least you told the truth. You might go to heaven before before I do. I was you mean it. Well, I was the reason I was gonna ask you was killing me. I'm curious what your first cuss word was. I don't even remember. This 15-year-old dude just cussing out of homeschool. What what what was your like, man, I can cuss now? Like, what do you remember? I mean, don't say out loud. No, no, no, no.

SPEAKER_00

I think it was in when I lived in Tanzania, so I learned some some bad words in Swahili that I cannot, you know. I feel like if I say them, you'll go to Google Translate.

SPEAKER_01

Don't say that.

SPEAKER_00

But yeah, you know, it was like, you know, kind of whispering, like I heard somebody said something, and I'm like, what is that? Okay, I'll just say that. And then I'd say that to some church people and be like, you can't say that. I'm like, okay, okay.

SPEAKER_01

So then I almost cussed one time. We were in the car all the way to this guy.

SPEAKER_05

This guy something else.

SPEAKER_00

I hope, I hope that you are not lying because you are on a pulpit right now.

SPEAKER_01

I'm telling the truth.

SPEAKER_00

You've never cussed.

SPEAKER_01

That's what I'm saying. I I have, but by mistake. Okay. And my dad tore me up. So we were driving home from church and I had heard BS at school. Okay. Right? And I thought it was so cool the way they used BS as cool. I was like, they didn't say BS, they said the whole word. Two words. Is it two words or one word? I don't know.

SPEAKER_00

He doesn't even know. He's two pure.

SPEAKER_01

So I was driving home and my brother says something crazy. I was like, that's BS. And I said it with so much conviction, like I really knew it was the most prune holy version of BS you ever heard. Yeah. My dad pretty much stopped in the middle of the interesting. Pretty much was like, Oh my goodness. We will never say that in this house, in our car, ever again. And I I've I I heard him. I don't know if I've ever said anything. Now I've said terrible things. Don't get me wrong. I've said terrible things. And I've said terrible things. There it is. I've said terrible things to people. Cussing was never my thing, though. I just never was like, I have to say this cuss word to get this emotion.

SPEAKER_00

Duan, Duane.

SPEAKER_01

Yes, stub your toe. Real hard. Praise the Lord. It's what they told us. Literally would say, if you stub your toe, whatever's in you comes out. Yeah. Praise the Lord. Praise the Lord. But why would I praise the Lord if I stub my toe? That doesn't make sense to me. Okay. I want you to eventually I need to know what your first one was. You can tell me later. I want to know what your first cuss word was.

SPEAKER_00

I can't even recall. I'm just so I'm just so stunned at your caliber of holiness. No, it's not that I'm holy. Can we get a can we get a cloth bag for his head? He's shining.

SPEAKER_01

He's like Moses who just came down off the mountain. No, man. I I just traded that for another, uh a different kind of sin. It's a it's a different thing.

SPEAKER_00

Oh but you said you said, I've said some horrible things. Which, you know, it's uh to me, I've I remember my uh uh you know I'm I'm a comedian now, so like I've always tried to I remember because I couldn't cuss, yeah. I remember thinking like, what is the meanest thing I could say? Yes to my sister, my brother, that's what I mean, or my mom. Yeah. And uh I remember my dad pulling me aside when I was like, you know, 14 or 15, being like, Shama, you your words are very sharp. And uh just like be careful with your words. And I think about that all the time. Yeah, because in this in that same like, I can't cuss, I just was like, what if I put all this energy into insults? Right, right, right, expressing my which is not, I mean, at this point, it's like you might as well just say all those words. You're you're doing the same, I if not more damage.

SPEAKER_01

Well, that's my point, Shamma, is that even though, for example, I'm not going around cussing, you know, church people say the most vile, man. I mean, they will cut you so fast and hard. It feels like they said 15 cuss words to you and they just said three just terrible things. So how do we get we supposed to be telling me? We're supposed to be telling our backs to you. You crying is the tissue. They got tissues under every tissue.

SPEAKER_00

Under every pew, there's a there's a tissue box. I'll get one. Um no, I really was asking if you ever interacted with non-church, you know. Did you ever realize like, okay, we are different? Like yes, yes.

SPEAKER_01

I uh So the town I grew up in the most is Carrieville outside of Memphis, Tennessee. Carrieville, Tennessee, outside of Memphis. And there was a little tiny black church before we went to the church 45 minutes away. It was called Fellowship Church God in Christ. Little tiny 75 people on a Sunday, something like that. Over the railroad tracks was my public school, Carrieville High School, which had every kind of person, Christians, non-Christians, everybody. And we saw them as the world. You know what I mean? Like that's the mission field. Like, you gotta go, you gotta get them people to get them to go to church. But I never wanted to invite them to church because they didn't they don't own a suit. They might own one suit, they might know one gospel song. In my church, we go, we were bro, we would go in. So I never really invited my wife friends to church, but my wife friends invited me to their church, which is how I got into CCM. Contemporary Christian music, yeah. And I said, This church is real, real casual. They wear jeans, flip-flop, flip, flip back and and back then it was Birkenstocks, too. Remember Birkenstocks?

SPEAKER_00

They're back now, but I remember when rainbow flip-flops were huge. And dude, you couldn't go to a church, you'd be like, Why is the youth pastor up there and freaking toes out? Toes out, man.

SPEAKER_01

Preaching. I mean, Jesus loves you, he cares about you. He's a shell necklace. I do remember the shell necklace, that's crazy. They were just so nice. Yeah. I just I had never experienced that kind of church environment. Niceness. Niceness. Our church was serious, yeah. But you you mess up on time, you out of here. You know what I'm saying? So, yeah, that was when I first realized like CCM gospel churches weren't the same. Yeah. And their their way of evangelizing was different than ours. And so I grew up playing organ and piano in that church. My gospel church, and then I found out about acoustic guitars in the CCM church. And never played an E major. Never played an A major, which for musicians, like in church, we play A flat, B flat, E flat. They were playing these open E songs I had never heard before. Like, what's the song? Well, one of the first songs I heard was Um The Splendor of the King. I'm like Splendor of the King. I'm talking about what a mighty God we serve. So it's just a different thing. Um but tell me about your situation because yeah, you already mentioned crazy stuff like Okay, Tanzania and all the things.

SPEAKER_00

So I was born in Tanzania, East Africa. Moved to the States when I was two years old with my family. Okay. My father, mother, my older brother, and myself.

SPEAKER_02

Okay.

SPEAKER_00

So the reason why my dad moved to the States, he initially wanted to come here to get an education. And that's what he did. He came here and he went to Bible college and uh got his degree, his master's, and then his doctorate in theology. Okay. And uh during this time, I had a younger sister who was born here in the States, and my dad would tell us, Hey, after I finish school here, we're gonna go back to Tanzania and plant a church.

SPEAKER_05

Okay.

SPEAKER_00

And uh, and so while we lived in the states, we initially the first state we lived in was Alabama, and we went to a small Caucasian Pentecostal church called Oak Mountain Cornerstone Church. Wow in in Alabama, there in Palham, Alabama.

SPEAKER_01

Now, let me let me ask you that because why would you all choose a paternally white church?

SPEAKER_00

Okay, so my dad moved to the states by himself initially.

unknown

Okay.

SPEAKER_00

Uh he was like, I'm just gonna go to the US, get an education. This is something very common in Africa and even some Middle Eastern countries, where like a a parent will leave to Go, I'm gonna go accomplish something and I will be back. So my dad's plan was I'm gonna go get an education and I'll be back in four years. And he and my mom wrote letters to each other. Um, but then two years into uh uh him being in the states, the church that he attended was like, Hey, we want to bring your wife and kids over. But his first Sunday in the States, he was like, I gotta go to a church. And my dad was very Tanzanian, spoke some English. He said, I'm gonna go to a black church in Alabama. So he went to a gospel black church in Alabama, yeah. And my dad said, I could not understand anything. I think just because of the African-American vernacular, just the accent, he just couldn't understand. Wow. And so that was Sunday morning, that was his first Sunday morning in the States, and then Sunday evening, he went to a white Pentecostal church, and he was like, I could understand that. You can understand that. And and that's where he went.

unknown

Wow.

SPEAKER_00

And that was the church that um knew him, uh, knew that he was here for college for college, knew that he had a wife and two boys in Tanzania, and was like, hey, we want to put some money together and help you uh finish that, complete the process of bringing your family up. That's awesome.

SPEAKER_01

Yeah, yeah. I mean, that's a great story because you don't really get to hear a lot of churches investing in international specific families. Oh, yeah. Like you hear, like, I have, you know, I give money to this organization and they they do something for a general population. But for a church to invest in your dad and your family huge. That's huge, man. Huge. And it changed the course of your life because had that not happened.

SPEAKER_00

I mean, yeah.

SPEAKER_01

I'm not saying it would have been better or worse, but it would have been different, it would have been different.

SPEAKER_00

Yeah. And that pastor, uh, he was our pastor throughout, he moved from Alabama to South Carolina to take over church. And we we followed them. We moved to South Carolina to still be pastored by him. And uh, and then from there, we became missionaries with the same organization, denomination that he was a part of and uh moved to Tanzania to be missionaries.

SPEAKER_02

Wow.

SPEAKER_00

Uh, and that same pastor, Pastor Avan Stewart, he officiated me and my wife's wedding. Oh, that's right. So it's this incredible kind of full circle thing of like, you know, he finds my dad goes to his church on a Sunday night in '92.

SPEAKER_02

Yep.

SPEAKER_00

Uh as a 32 or three-year-old. And then decades later, that pastor stands between me and Grace and officiates our wedding and you know, held our first kid. And he he passed away a few years ago, but really sad. But yeah, yeah, it's it's this beautiful, just like a beautiful um yeah, investment. Yeah, just just really radical generosity that it's tough to, you know, you don't. I don't know. I don't know.

SPEAKER_01

Maybe in a culture where a lot of our friends are talking about how much damage a church has done to them, yeah. To hear you talk about how a church changed your family's history and legacy, I think there's a lot of stories like that. We just don't get to hear them, and that's part of why we're doing this show, man, because yes, church is hard, and there have been some terrible things that have happened to all of us.

SPEAKER_00

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01

And I'm sure we'll get to some maybe hard things for you. I'll share some too. But if that pastor hadn't planted a seed, if that community had not planted a seed in your family that connected to your wedding and having you know what I'm saying, like that's it's huge. That's something to praise God for.

SPEAKER_00

And I think things like that have been the the the thread, constant thread of even my faith and my relationship with Jesus.

SPEAKER_02

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00

It's like, man, you know, sure I've been frustrated at times, but I'm like, man, God's already done so much. And the reason why this happened is I can trace it back to these moments. And the reason why this happened is because of that moment. So it's like, man, I gotta, I want to see that the it continue, you know. God's already began a great work, and you know, I I know he's gonna bring it to completion. Yeah. That's great, man. Tell me about church in Tanzania. So I turned 11, and my parents uh they they became missionaries, raised support in Tanzania. That's another part of my story too. So church, Pastor Raven's church, we when we became missionaries with the organization we were part of, we had to raise support by visiting other churches and telling them about our mission. So that began the process of visiting a different church Sunday morning, Sunday night, oftentimes Wednesday or Thursday night. Um, and my dad would preach or share his mission. And so we visited hundreds of churches in the Carolinas, which is a particular denomination. Yeah, Pentecostal, Pentecostal Holiness Church. Yeah. Yeah. And then we moved, we raised the support and we moved back to Tanzania. And as a as an 11-year-old who uh I was 11, my brother was two years older, my sister's three years younger than me. We didn't speak Swahili. My parents spoke Swahili, we didn't speak Swahili. We grew up in the Bible Belt, we, you know, we didn't know what was going on, but we that was a huge culture shock. And um, yeah, we just just jumped in.

unknown

Wow.

SPEAKER_00

And then my dad, I think three months later, like, hey, we're gonna play at the church in a in like a nursery, I think it was like some preschool that he found. And yeah, we just watched my dad. We went from this big southern Bible belt, quintessential, uh, huge huge church that had a Christian school, great youth ministry. Uh I played soccer in front of the church. We had a team, we played basketball, they had a gym and all this. To just meeting in a in a preschool class with 12 people, wow, with my dad as the pastor. So that was a huge leap of like, wow, man, this doesn't, this is not church. I remember I think like this is not that's church. Like that's I want to get back to that.

SPEAKER_01

So you missed being a yeah, yeah, it was a part of me that missed that.

SPEAKER_00

But my dad, I always tell people that my regardless of what happened, that it my dad never made it feel cringy, you know, even though he would do the announcements, pick up a guitar, lead worship. He played too. He played, yeah. Wow. Led worship, put the guitar down, pick up a basket, take up the offering. Woo! Put the basket down, pick up his Bible, preach, you know, man, and then stand, stand by the door, say bye to everybody who showed up, and then he did that for how long? He did that for my goodness. I mean, we we were out of that preschool maybe within a year, and then we met at an abandoned bar, like a bar that was had gone out of business, and we just restored this bar. People were like, Oh, you got that bar. We had multiple times we had drunk people stumble in. We're like, hey, not a bar, not a bar anymore.

SPEAKER_01

Yeah, but you can get healing, you get sober.

SPEAKER_00

Yeah, a lot of times. Um, but yeah, so that was the butt yeah, my dad just had this, like he just knew his calling. He knew what he wanted to do. So that was really special.

SPEAKER_01

So not only did you grow up in church, you're a pastor's kid. Yeah. Preacher's kid. Mm-hmm. I mean, that's a whole different thing, man. I am too. Obviously, my both grandfathers were pastor. Then my dad ended up pastoring a church as well. And that's a different breed of people. Oh, yeah. I mean, do you ever feel like you had pressure to follow in his footsteps? A lot.

SPEAKER_02

Okay.

SPEAKER_00

Because uh, in my dad used to tell people if he asked, you know, when he was introducing my brother, sister, and I, he would say, I'm raising ministers. You know, you know how your parents are. Some people see you on stage. Like I played guitar or drums at my dad's church and stuff. I wasn't good at either of them, but you know, I was available. You have a choice.

SPEAKER_01

Yeah, you're available.

SPEAKER_00

Yeah, man. That's all that's a requirement. That's that's what some people do. Yeah. Um, but yeah, so I just knew like I have to, you know, I'm gonna go into ministry. That's what I have to do. Yeah. So there was a lot of pressure. And then also just the you know, uh Tanzania culture, you know, African culture values honor. And so it's like, hey, you have to be your dad is the pastor, so you have to be a like an honorable teenager or whatever. It's like, I don't care.

SPEAKER_01

Yeah, right.

SPEAKER_00

You know, I'm trying to figure myself out and stuff. We'll cuss anyway.

SPEAKER_01

We'll cuss anyway.

SPEAKER_00

I'm a cuss anyway. Yeah, I don't think you heard me. No, no.

SPEAKER_01

You're louder. No, I felt that too, man. I mean, my parents did great at not specifically pressuring us to be in ministry, but it seems like in that culture at that time, it's hard not to feel pressure whether your parents do it or not. Yeah. Because of the people going to the church, they'll they say the craziest stuff. Like, you're gonna take over this church one day, aren't you? Take over this church? I want crackers. I want fruit snacks. You know what I'm saying? It's like, I'm not trying to, I'm not trying to do all that. I'm not trying to do all that. I mean, I want to be a musician. I was like, I'm not trying to pastor nobody.

SPEAKER_00

Okay, my dad would always say, like, I can't, he'd look at me and my brother and be like, I can't think of the better candidates. He's like, You've already watched us do it just based on the experience. So he was right.

SPEAKER_01

Right, right, right.

SPEAKER_00

But at the same time, like, I I yeah, I don't know about all that.

SPEAKER_01

I will say though, looking at you now, he was correct. I mean, no matter how far you run, you Yeah, you all as you too, you too. But I think I think what happens, stuff gets in you, right? Whether you know it or not. Yeah. I mean, you just you learn how to how to care for people, you learn how to manage craziness, you learn how to like serve.

SPEAKER_00

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01

I a lot of people don't get that, man. Right. It's like it's putting you in a way I think that's pretty valuable, and I think is rare. I'm thankful for it. I don't think I'd be doing anything. I think anything I did, whether it was ministry or not, yeah, is better because I grew up in church as a pastor's kid.

SPEAKER_00

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01

I think it taught me how to lead people, how to problem solve, how to love people. Um it came with his challenges and things that you know I gotta work out as well, but um I'm curious, let's let's go deeper and personal. You are a pastor's son in a Christian family, but you didn't have to be a Christian. Technically, you could be like, right, and a lot of pastors' kids and preachers are like yeah, the opposite.

SPEAKER_00

I've I I always say that pastors' kids go into either full-time ministry or prison. Those are the two, those are the two options they have.

SPEAKER_01

I mean, it's kind of both. Even now? Um I mean, there's some truth to that uh because you're faced with eternity every day. Yeah, you're faced with that conversation every day, and you're like either overwhelmed by it or you kind of lean into it.

SPEAKER_00

Right.

SPEAKER_01

So at what point did you lean in? I'm assuming you leaned in.

SPEAKER_00

I would say in college. I went or after college, because I went to Bible college after after uh when I when I graduated.

SPEAKER_01

Was that your decision or somebody influenced you?

SPEAKER_00

It was our financial decision. Like Yeah, I feel that I feel that. I I wanted to go to a bigger school and have a a different major, but my parents like, you know, we don't have money.

SPEAKER_02

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00

And I for some odd reason I thought my parents have a bunch of money.

unknown

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_00

And so when I found out, I was like, okay, I'll, you know, okay. And so they were like, just go to this small Bible college for the time being, and then you could, you know, you could transfer out or whatever. So I went to Bible college, and then I also my first Sunday while I was in college, like you know, moved back to the States for college. My brother and I we attend went to this church that he had been attending infrequently, but we went there together and I was like, hey, this is gonna be my home church. You know, I don't know where you're gonna go, but I'm gonna start going here. And so started attending that church and started volunteering. So I went from my dad being a pastor, me volunteering at my dad's church, to going to Bible college, volunteering at a church.

SPEAKER_01

Your destiny is laid out, man.

SPEAKER_00

So it was just kind of like, yeah, it was that, it was that. And I did everything. Man, you know, I played on the worship team for the youth ministry and then ran sound or slides for big church, and I they even let me preach a couple times on Sunday morning, and then after I graduated Bible college, I became the they were like, Hey, do you want to be the student pastor?

SPEAKER_04

Wow.

SPEAKER_00

And uh and I was like, Yeah, sure. And then when I got into student pastoring, I just had a lot of just dilemmas with the way I just wanted to do things different.

SPEAKER_02

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00

And I quickly found out that nobody wanted that except for me. And uh it was communicated to me, like, hey, you can either do things the way we want it to we want them done or you could leave. I was like, I think I want to leave. And so after that, I had to I remember that was the first time from 11 to 14, 11 to 24. And I was like, Yeah, I've every time I've walked into a church building, it's because I'm going to do something. And then after that, you know, having a pastoral degree, getting fired as a student pastor, and going to church on a Sunday, the following Sunday, I was like, oh, this is the first time I've ever been like a member of a church since I was 11.

unknown

Wow.

SPEAKER_00

And that was that was very, you know, very different. Yeah. And even reading this the Bible, I was like, oh, I'm not reading the Bible to prepare for a sermon. Right. Or I'm not watching something to learn to tell somebody else. Like, this is all for me. So I think that was the first time that I just had this. I tell people I got saved after getting fired from a church. But you know, just like this radical. I'm I know I was saved before that, but just this, the lights turned on. Like different things. Yeah, like, no, what am I doing this for?

SPEAKER_02

Right.

SPEAKER_00

I'm not doing this because my dad's the pastor, and I'm doing this because I'm influential over these 40 students. Wow. Like, I'm doing this because I love I love the Lord, you know, and I want to serve more than anything else.

SPEAKER_01

That's incredible, man. Was there can you point to a moment that happened, or that was like I got fired and therefore, or was it over time?

SPEAKER_00

It it took after I got fired, all I did was deliver pizza. I worked, I worked at a pizza place, and uh, I just started listening to audiobooks and really great sermons. Uh sadly, I cannot. I used to reference the people that I listened to, but you can't do that anymore.

SPEAKER_04

No, no, because we've got adaptation.

SPEAKER_00

So just just knowing that I listened to some really great guys who were great at the time.

SPEAKER_01

They were great at the time.

SPEAKER_00

But uh, yeah, but I just spent so much time, man, and like, oh, I I I just met Israel Houghton. Yeah, um, I met him a few years ago, but then I saw him again recently, and I was like, dude, your power of one album carried me, dude. I was like, I played that album back to front in my little saved by grace. Oh no, so good. Every prayer as a every prayer, like all of that. And so, yeah, just that season of of uh humbling, I guess, of like I went from hey, I'm I work at a church, yeah, to hey, what are you doing? Oh, I deliver pizza. Oh, what are you going to do? Like, what's the goal? I'm like, no, that's it right now. Like, that's all I'm doing. Yeah, that was that to me was just this opportunity to go, like, you know what? This is what I'm doing, this is where God has me, and uh, this is what I'm gonna continue doing. And during that time, the books and the sermons and the music, you know, that power of one album by Israel Houghton, all that stuff, and a lot of tears, yeah, and a lot of prayers and a lot of walking. I remember I walked a lot, just like just couldn't sleep, couldn't during that time. I just remember having this yeah, just this true spiritual formation that happened. That's awesome, man.

SPEAKER_01

Yeah, that's great. Um, one of the fun things that we're doing on Instagram is we're posting these old pictures, and we get we get to tell our story, but I just want to see some pictures of kind of where we were as kids. People have been sending pictures, and by the way, if if you have pictures of your childhood growing up in church, I mean, I want to see the bow ties, I want to see the greased hair, I want to see the the flower dresses, the ties, the wide ties. The clip bones, man. Come on, get the clip-bones. Um okay, what is uh who took this picture? I think it was one of the church photographer? No, I don't think we had church photographers back then.

SPEAKER_00

It was somebody What do you mean? You don't even have a content, a full-time content team at your church. We had we had I don't even you gotta remember it wouldn't even really smartphones back then.

SPEAKER_01

I don't know who took that picture. But I'm grateful, man. That was a sweet time. My dad was pastoring a church in St. Louis while my brother was going to high school in Memphis. They would drive from Memphis to St. Louis, my brother and my mom. I was at Belmont in college. My brother is a year behind me. His senior year, they would drive from Memphis to St. Louis every weekend to go to church. I don't know how they did that. But my mom has testimonies of she does not remember driving, she only rem remembers waking up in the garage. What's your mom driving? Or the angels would carry her car, one of the two. But that's how, but when you ask I I'm all for trusting in God.

SPEAKER_00

Viewers, listeners, trust Jesus. But drink Red Bull. You hear me?

SPEAKER_01

If you're drinking, we don't do energy drinks over in Holiness Church. Oh no. Oh no, we just do for energy. We drink a black coffee. We just got on coffee. We just got on coffee. We just got on coffee.

SPEAKER_00

She just remembers waking up, waking up. She remembers waking up.

SPEAKER_01

I promise you, I promise you that God kept my brother and my mom on that highway. I promise you. And she'll tell you the same thing. They were just faithful to the church, faithful to the ministry, man. Imagine like a mom balancing her. She was a full-time teacher at a school Friday afternoon, get off work, drive to St. Louis, be there for my dad, after church, drive home to Memphis, go back to work on Monday. You know, I'm not saying that's the best thing for everybody, but I'm just saying that's the level of commitment that my family had to church.

SPEAKER_00

I don't think there's a level of audacity that people had back then. Yeah. I don't think that as a as a you're a parent, I'm a parent. We would never. If you told me something like that, I would we'd have a I'd have to sit you down and go, you cannot do it. Can you imagine you cannot do that?

SPEAKER_01

Can you imagine going home to your wife right now and saying, hey, hey, I'm called to start a church in St. Louis and we'll have to drive every weekend to do that?

unknown

No.

SPEAKER_01

I mean, you know, there might be a fine line between calling and maybe something unhealthy, but what I what I learned from my parents was when you feel called to something, yeah, and you feel like it's something you should do, you you commit to it. And I think my dad was saying, fact that he has said recently, he's like, man, I don't know if all of that was the best decision for our family. Um, but I just think God used some of it to build something in us.

SPEAKER_00

There there is a uh a sense that a lot of people have when they're talking about ministry or something they want to do that they're like, oh, it's just so easy. Yeah. Like we just got the right we just happened to get a place and so-and-so happened to move, and I convinced my best friend to move, and we just did. Right. And I'm like, that's good. But like, man, there was a time I remember reading a story of missionaries, early, early missionaries. They were called one-way missionaries, where they would pack all their stuff in a coffin. They would put their belongings in a coffin, and then they would just sail to Africa or somewhere because the only way they would come back to the states was in that coffin. Ooh, what? Yeah, yeah. That's a different thing. Like we were missionaries, but like, yeah, we're gonna go to the states for a little bit. Yeah, yeah, vacation or something. Yeah, come back. We're gonna go for a retreat or something. Yeah, man. Hey, nobody, nobody was retreating back then.

SPEAKER_01

No, man.

SPEAKER_00

You're like, hey, I'm going. No, and when I die, just put me in this box. Yeah, they'll know what to do. Yeah, send me back, they'll know what to do. That's commitment, man.

SPEAKER_01

Yeah, yeah. That's a 90s commitment. We don't have that in 2026, man. We like, I'm subscribed, I'll subscribe for 30 days and get out of there. I'll do the seven-day trial, yeah, get out of there. All right, man. Let me look at let me look at one of your pictures because it looks like you have a guitar in your hand. What is this? It's a toy guitar. It's a toy guitar. Okay, yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_00

Oh man. That was, I think, my fifth birthday. Yeah. My dad got me this guitar with the headset. The headset on it? With the headset mic. Oh man, he was setting you up, man. I mean, talk about a every picture of that of my birthday where I'm first of all, it's just my friends and my my siblings. They don't have nothing. Uh but I'm, dude, I'm strapped up at that birthday party. He was setting you up, he knew what he was doing. Yeah, it was really, really special. The minister of music. I ended up playing guitar at church for my dad, and I've made a couple songs here and there, so it's been really Yeah, that was really special. You know, it's like the when you when you're a kid and you're like, oh, I can make something out of nothing. Like I can make these little things. Like, that was fun.

SPEAKER_01

That's cool, man. That was really okay.

SPEAKER_00

Hold on. We got I got one more. I got another picture of you here. Uh here we go. Here we go.

SPEAKER_01

Oh, that's one of my favorite pictures, man. That's my brother Marcus. I'm holding a tambourine. This is how my mom set us up for Sunday morning. You know what I'm saying? Matching outfits, different color suspenders. Is that what color? You got the black suspenders with the black tie. I think we still have that lazy boy chair, maybe. Yeah, man. That's how we that's how I dress up for church from zero to 18. It wasn't until I got out of high school that I started chilling a little bit on the dress up. Yeah, man. My mom. Y'all look like some y'all look like y'all could y'all running the church at this stage. Basically, basically. I mean, that's what it was, man. You either started doing either ushering, playing the instrument, or cooking in the back. I mean, you're doing something on Sunday morning. Shout out to my mom and dad for dressing us good when we were young. Um, I got one more of you. Looks like you're with your family, man. Is this your are these your folks?

SPEAKER_00

Oh, yes. Yes. I think my brother took that.

SPEAKER_01

You could tell because he cut off my dad.

SPEAKER_00

Uh, but yeah, that was outside of our church on a Sunday morning. I'm holding a trophy. It's my my dad and my younger sister and my mom and me. I'm holding a trophy. I think I won like a reader, like a reading competition at school. Really? And I was like, I gotta take my trophy to church.

SPEAKER_01

Yeah. To show up. To show it off. To be humble, yeah. Yeah, yeah. I got it, got it.

SPEAKER_00

I don't know if they called me forward or not, but you know, you know when you when churches used to celebrate like accomplishments, yeah, yeah, you know. Yeah, yeah, yeah. You know, and I remember thinking, yeah, my church family knows that I can read.

SPEAKER_01

That's amazing, man.

SPEAKER_00

Um okay. Did you ever have a were you just good Christian throughout? No. I like I never cussed a pastor, grand grandkid of a pastor, son of a pastor. Yeah. I'm gonna stick with it.

SPEAKER_01

Yeah, yeah. I one of the dangers of being a third generation Christian is that you can play the part really well.

SPEAKER_03

And you can try to R. And um that's I knew, man, I knew that guy was talking to me.

SPEAKER_01

And the hiding of embarrassment is the pastor's kid coming down and saying, I'm not a Christian. And I was like, nope, nope, not gonna do it, not gonna do it. And it just got to my throat. It was like beating in my head. I was like, if I say no right now, I know that I'm I know enough about God. I've been in church long enough to know that if I disobey this moment, I'm deliberately saying no to God. And I I can't do that. I walk down and these kids start following me down, following me down. Apparently, I wasn't the only one in the room that was having this moment. And that's the day I remember like it was yesterday. That's the day I received the Lord. And I remember driving home in my car, looking out the window at the sun and the clouds, and thinking, now I'm a Christian.

unknown

Wow.

SPEAKER_01

It's like one day I'm gonna go through those clouds and be with Jesus. Like that was the first, after all those Sunday school memorizations and Bible bowls, that was the first time I actually felt and knew from a deep place that I was a Christian. And uh from then, obviously, it wasn't a behavioral turnaround. I still got grounded probably the next week or uh said something stupid, but that's when I was facing Jesus. That's when I was making decisions to follow him. And then ever since that moment, man, it's just been, you know how it is. There have been, there, there have been months and weeks where I feel really far. And there'll be months and weeks where I feel like I can't get any closer, man. It's like everything that I do feels like it's tripping with his presence. And then the next couple weeks will be like, am I even a Christian right now? So that's what I want, I want to ask you about, you know, a lot of people who watch this show grew up in church and maybe had an experience like we had. Yeah. Maybe even more spiritual. Some people probably fell out on the floor or maybe spoke in tongues, or other people grew up Catholic and had a very meditative experience, but we all can point to either a season or a point in our lives where, like, man, something happened to me. And then we became adults, and maybe our parents got sick, or we lost our job, or uh we had a breakup in a relationship. What do you do with that faith that was in your childhood as an adult?

SPEAKER_00

I like that you said something happened, you know, because there was a time when you're a young believer where like, man, something happens, something else happens. Oh, God did that. Right. Oh, God, and you're I don't know, you're like in this honeymoon phase. Yeah. And then there's other times where you just gotta lock in, man. Gotta lock in. And uh it feels fruitless.

SPEAKER_01

Um what does lock in mean to you? Like more Bible studies, uh worship playlists.

SPEAKER_00

I mean, I guess just I feel like orienting myself into the things of God. Yeah, I mean, it's like the things I watch and listen to and read. And it is reading scripture, but yeah, yeah. I mean, I think it's easy to just get side you get sidetracked if you're not paying attention. Like you just you just drift. Especially if you've been doing it for so long. Like, I've read the Bible, yeah. I've read it, yeah. I've listened to those albums.

SPEAKER_02

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00

Um, but uh yeah, yeah, the the the the orientation of like, no, I need to work out my salvation. Yeah. Like I did, okay, I did it yesterday, I gotta do it again today. I have to do it again. Like that that intentional, deliberate continuation is to me, it's like I can't stop, I can't stop that. Yeah. Because as a pastor's kid, you know, like there's nobody who got more church than you, like church experience than you. So there is a, I don't know, maybe for me, it's like I feel like I could coast. Yeah. Even sometimes somebody will start preaching, and I'm like, I've heard it.

SPEAKER_02

Yeah, I've heard that, yeah. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00

But then I have to like position my my my head and my heart to go, I've heard it, but I still need to listen.

SPEAKER_02

That's right.

SPEAKER_00

You know, I still need to listen, there's something here for me. That's right. Sure, I could preach the sermon based off of the scripture that he just said. Like I I know, but I need to, you can't. I even love that, you know, your your dad was still preaching with conviction to the point where you got that changed your heart.

SPEAKER_02

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00

So I think there is a and your heart was also open to that. So I think there's a level of openness that you have to have that even if you've been walking with Jesus for so long, you can't, you can't abandon that, man.

SPEAKER_01

Oh man. No. I I agree. I think there's been times that I have tried to put myself in the old way of church, the way I grew up, yeah, and realize it doesn't work for my adult version. The truth hasn't changed, but the method and the rhythm has changed.

SPEAKER_03

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01

Um, for example, we used to pray these long prayers at church. Like, oh God, we come to you now with bowed head, bended knee. You know, just all these like extra stuff. Adverbs, adjectives, conjunctions. King James Version prayers.

SPEAKER_05

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01

And it makes you feel like you're actually doing more than what you're actually doing. But when my dad got sick and was in the hospital last year, guess what I was not doing? Praying King Jerm King James Version prayers.

unknown

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01

They were short. They were like, Lord, I need you. Lord help us, Lord, touch my dad. And it's it's a it's a strange thing to see the person that led you to the Lord in the hospital bed. And you're like, there has to be, there has to be more to life than just depending on what my parents did or my parents said or what that church did. I need to have a faith that can hold me now and I can pass to my kids. Because that's the other thing. Like, now we're making decisions for our kids. Now our kids in 20 years are gonna be talking about us. Like, my dad did or did not do X, Y, and Z. And that kind of makes me nervous, man. On am I passing down the faith in a way where my kids will be true to the faith and not just copycats.

SPEAKER_00

I would say this uh the my dad passed several years ago, but seeing him in the hospital, I remember that first time walking into the room and seeing him. I remember we just both he cried and I cried. We just wept before we even said anything. And that was the first time where I was like, oh man, everything that he we've read about, we did daily devotions. This is like this is the rubber meeting, the road right here. That's right. And you know, he passed, but it's like, man, all right, now we have to same God, yeah, good God, yeah, faithful God. Wow, all right, I gotta keep, I gotta keep going.

SPEAKER_01

Yeah. Um I a lot of people take that situation and they tell God, because you didn't spare my dad or heal my dad or fix my marriage or keep my job, I I'm not gonna be a Christian anymore.

unknown

Right, right.

SPEAKER_01

I actually understand that. There was a time where I'd be like, you just need to, you need to buckle up and be faithful. Right. I uh I have I have walked through enough disappointment now and grief to where just buckle up is not good enough.

SPEAKER_00

No, no.

SPEAKER_01

At the same time, I have experienced so much of the goodness of God that I just can't cast my faith in the trash. And so I don't have a solution. I just want to let people know that it's okay to wrestle with the faith you were given with the current life that you have. And it's okay to ask God hard questions, and it's okay to wonder if things are gonna be the way that you want them to be. I guess my encouragement to people would be there is a way to bridge your childhood faith with your grown-up faith. And I think one way to do that is to first acknowledge that those two things don't look the same. If you're trying to fit your grown-up foot in a kid's shoe, it's not gonna work.

SPEAKER_00

So Dear Heavenly Father, we just Oh, y'all don't pray, y'all don't pray when an ambulance would go back. Did you really? Yeah, we used to pray when an ambulance would go by.

SPEAKER_01

We say, whatever's going on there, wherever they're going, Lord, be there as they go and bless them as they get there and heal and pre- We did the same thing. We did. That's beautiful, though. I'm not sure that as a joke. We did. No, we you gotta understand, man. We prayed all the time. Um yeah, man, I I didn't know that about your dad.

SPEAKER_00

Yeah, but the God is so faithful that there is you know, incredible grief and incredible joy can be experienced uh in this in in life. And uh it almost shouldn't it shouldn't exist together, you know? Like uh I remember a friend explained to me, like, you know, God works in seasons. So you know sometimes everything's gonna bloom really well. And you're like, yeah, and then everything dies. And if you have never experienced the fall in the winter, you're like, oh man, wow, none of these sticks are gonna look and then Paul and comes and you start sneezing, and then everything looks beautiful. Yes.

SPEAKER_01

Um I think people see winter as God left me. Right. Or they see summer and spring as everything's gonna always be good. Yeah. And I think you're so right, man. Living life in seasons is so helpful.

SPEAKER_00

It's I mean, because I remember, I mean, I there they're not, I guess, death and life, I guess, is you know, burying my dad, and then maybe a year and a half later holding my son in the hospital. You know, and being like, whoa, man, what an what an incredible blessing to have seen both of both of those things happen.

SPEAKER_01

Wow. Um and that guy was there for both.

SPEAKER_00

Yeah, yeah. Present for both. So to me, that's just kind of like, man, yeah. You there it I think the disappointments are real, but the but the great times where you just get like a just a little, you know, I don't know if it's a nudge or just like a yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_02

I don't know, man.

SPEAKER_00

I those those parts are so special too. Yeah. And I think that's the the maybe most church and sermons maybe paint too much of the rosy side of I think so.

SPEAKER_01

Of I think so.

SPEAKER_00

The Christian walk.

SPEAKER_01

I think so.

SPEAKER_00

But I'm like, man, the grief is beautiful too. Yeah, it is, you know, because all those all all the everything shapes us, man.

SPEAKER_01

It depends on the church, man. I've been to some churches that are just salty. All they talk about is grief, and then other churches, all they talk about is joy, which is why I think Paul says, rejoice with those who rejoice and weep with those who weep. Because depending on the season you're in, you shouldn't, I can't judge your season. Right, right. And God may be taking you through a winter while I'm in the springtime, but if I love you, I will come sit with you in your season. And if you love me, you'll come sit in me in mine. And I think when we judge each other's seasons, we we shortchange what God is doing. Yeah. Also, God is the one who determines seasons. You can't walk out in the summertime and be like, where's the snow? And be mad at God because there's no snow. Right. I think um I think it takes humility to say, God, I trust the season that I'm in. And I also believe that seasons are cyclical. So even though I'm in winter or spring right now, you're gonna keep me in the one that's coming next. Right. And I think that's I hope that's helpful for people who are walking through a season right now that I would say more so now, I think with especially with a lot of kids who grew up in church, you know?

SPEAKER_00

Yeah. Cause man, I have seen some deconstruction evangelists online.

SPEAKER_05

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00

Which I'm like, oh, you just took that same energy and tenacity. Yes. Yeah. That you had and boldness that you had with the with for God. That's right.

SPEAKER_01

And you put it towards this. That's right. Um, and I think, Shama, this is not everybody, but I think that a lot of people who are walking through this deconstruction, a lot of people have been disappointed.

SPEAKER_00

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01

They have been told a version of who God is. Right. And their life doesn't match that character of God. And because of that, they try to fill the gap with um whatever they can, to be honest. Yeah. Whether it's, you know, theological or spiritual or emotional. I get it though. I'm not throwing rocks at them.

SPEAKER_00

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01

I'm just saying, hold on enough for the season to come back around. Right, right. And I think there's a lot of people right now coming out of deconstruction and are willing to trust God and say, I know everything I learned as a child wasn't perfect. I know my life is not perfect, but there is something about Christianity that I just can't get away from. And that takes humility to be like, I just posted six videos online tearing down church so-and-so. But I think I should maybe reconsider, you know, Christianity again.

unknown

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01

Um, I do want to say you don't have to go back to the same church to reconsider church. So if there are people who are thinking about trying church again, um, it's okay to try a different one and believe that God will meet you in that spot. Um I feel like we're just getting started. Sean, I feel like there's so much more of our stories we can share. Maybe we should do another episode like this at some point where um we talk about, I want to hear more about you know what you're doing right now. You're still a pastor, by the way. You're just pastoring in different ways. I am too.

unknown

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01

It took me a long time to say that. So maybe we'll come back at some point some point and talk about that. Um please update us when you do cuss. What if I did it in church?

SPEAKER_00

Captured on live 4K.

SPEAKER_01

Greatest fear is being on stage leading worship, and the most foul word comes out of my mouth.

SPEAKER_00

Can't have that.

SPEAKER_01

Because now it's now I'm a worship fans. Now I'm now I'm just embarrassed. And it's captured for the rest of my life. Because it's 16, no one would never know.

SPEAKER_00

Nobody would ever know now. It's like, nah, that's gonna stick to it. Now I'm canceled. Uh another thing I was thinking of when you said you were a teenager praying that you would have a perfect day. I was like, yeah, you know, that's I think a lot of people strive for that. But once you have kids, no day's perfect.

SPEAKER_01

No day's perfect.

SPEAKER_00

No the moment you wake up and you're like, man, this morning is perfect. Hey, I spilled all my cereal on the floor. Now you're cleaning up Cheerios and milk. It's never half empty either.

SPEAKER_01

When they spill it, it's you just you just passed it to them probably every time. Probably on the carpet you just bought. Oh, yeah. On the floor you just mopped.

SPEAKER_00

Oh, I spilled my juice. It's not, it's not the last bit of juice.

SPEAKER_01

No. Full cup. Full cup. Full cup. Yeah, man. You got to get saved again after you have kids for sure. You do need a double dose of the Holy Ghost for every child. You need another anointing.

SPEAKER_00

I'm a blessed man, though. I got four kids.

SPEAKER_01

You got four kids. You got four kids. It's been really fun, though. It's been really fun. Yeah, yeah. Well, thank you all for joining us uh here at Grown Up Church Kids. I I hope that our stories resonate something with you. We don't have the same story that you have, but um if you've grown up in church and have had uh a mixture of good and bad experiences, you're not by yourself. And if you're going through a season right now that Shama mentioned where maybe you're on the edge of something getting worse or maybe on the edge of something getting better, I just I just want you to know that you're also not by yourself. And it might be helpful for you to find a group of people who are in the same season that you're in. Um and maybe someone who's maybe one cycle ahead of you, because the more that we encourage each other in the seasons that we're in, um, the more strength that we have to not give up. And um life can get really weird and crazy, especially in church. And so don't give up. I just want to encourage you to keep going. Um, whatever that means for you. If that means just getting up tomorrow morning, or if that means going to church, or if that means saying a one-word prayer to God, or just hugging your wife and your kids. Um don't give up. Uh, thank you for for watching the show today. So glad to have my brother Shama here with me. We got more episodes coming. Hey, can you do me a favor and like and subscribe to this channel? Um, we have more episodes coming. Um, like and subscribe to the video. And uh Grown Up Church Kids is where there's more of us than you think there are. And stories are better than sermons. Thank you all for watching. We'll see you next time.