He Wrote “Come Jesus Come.” But Hated Jesus. Artwork

Grown-Up Church Kids

Grown-Up Church Kids is a podcast for anyone who grew up in church and is still figuring out what to do with it.

Hosted by Dwan Hill and Shama Mrema, the show blends honest conversation, humor, music, and storytelling as they unpack faith, culture, and the realities of growing up in and around the church. From choir stands to church politics, from deep belief to hard questions, nothing is off limits.

It’s real, it’s reflective, and it’s for anyone who’s ever asked:

What do I keep, what do I let go of, and where is God in all of it now?

All Episodes

Grown-Up Church Kids

He Wrote “Come Jesus Come.” But Hated Jesus.

June 07, 2026 • Dwan Hill • Season 1 • Episode 10

0:00 | 38:37

Stephen McWhirter is known as the songwriter of “Come Jesus Come,” but behind the worship songs is a story of addiction, church hurt, forgiveness, and radical restoration. In this episode of Grown-Up Church Kids, Stephen shares how growing up around ministry shaped his view of God, why he once hated Jesus and Christians, and how a 3 a.m. encounter with God changed everything.

Dwan, Shama, and Stephen talk about church hypocrisy, addiction, repentance, forgiving his father, family, ministry, and what it means to know Jesus beyond the people who misrepresented Him.

00:00 Stephen’s Story Begins
01:15 That’ll Preach
06:31 When a Christian Artist Gets Real
07:48 “I Don’t Know If You Want Me On This Podcast”
09:27 Growing Up With Church Hypocrisy
10:40 Addiction, Anger, and Hating Jesus
14:15 The Billy Graham Crusade
15:22 Reading The Case for Christ at 3 A.M.
16:13 “You Won’t Do It. I’ll Do It.”
17:05 Quitting Drugs Overnight
18:14 Returning to Church
20:14 Forgiving His Father
24:09 His Father’s Final Breath
25:20 Why Forgiveness Is So Hard
27:15 Repentance, Consequences, and Grace
31:07 “You Don’t Know Who You Are Yet”
33:05 Ministry With Jesus vs. Ministry For Jesus
35:08 Choosing Family Over the Grind
40:28 Stephen’s Book and Music
41:32 “Come Jesus Come” and What’s Next
41:54 Old Rugged Cross

ABOUT THE SHOW:

Grown Up Church Kids is more than a show, it’s a full-circle moment where Sunday Morning Meets Real Life. Bringing together community, conversations, shared stories, and songs that shaped a generation, this is a space for Grown-Up Church Kids to reconnect with their roots, redefine their journeys, and celebrate the faith together.

There are more of us than you think.

🔔 Subscribe on YouTube

https://www.youtube.com/channel/UC9KOBazbPvWdcopb_dd1M5g

🎧 Listen on Audio

https://www.buzzsprout.com/2607662

📚 Resources

https://amzn.to/3PISqfX

More from The Choir Room

YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/@thechoirroom

Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/the.choirroom/?hl=en

Website: https://www.choirisback.com/

CREDITS:

Director & Editor: Kyle Whittaker

Producer: Hannah Gifford (Open Hand Management)

Production Assistants: Sarah Bush, Abby Loomis

Audio: Garrett Miller, Aaron Rochotte

Video: Seth Scruggs

Video, Photo & Social: Jordan Rubino

Management: Annie Cunningham

#grownupchurchkids #dwanhill #shamamrema #stephenmcwhirter #thechoirroom #faithjourney #churchkid

SPEAKER_00 0:00

I'm assuming you're about to tell us about a really radical transformation. I'm still on the church. But I am in church now. I am in church. You still go to church and do other things.

SPEAKER_03 0:17

Oh, you mean you're still working on your testimony? This is unbelievable. Listen, I need a true story complaining.

SPEAKER_02 0:22

It needed to probably the craziest thing for me is when I gave my life to Jesus, I knew the first thing I was supposed to do that I knew God was calling me to do that I was like, no, was uh to forgive my dad. I was like, this is not gonna happen. This is unimaginable. If anybody does not deserve to be forgiven, it's this guy.

SPEAKER_01 1:24

Uh great co-host for me today and for this season. And uh if you're wondering what this show is, it's basically kind of a combination of Tiny Desk Meets the Tonight Show, where we have great music, great conversations, great comedy, great laughs. And uh this is a place for people who grew up going to church in any different kind of church, but also for folks who looked into the church and was like, man, what are those crazy people doing? Like, what kind of food do they eat? What's going on in these services? And uh I just I just think it's good to remember where we're from. It helps us know where we're going, and it also just like gets us out of the Sunday morning routine to talk about um how God has blessed our background. I know there's so many things going on in the world that says church is over and that church is terrible and that that the church doesn't have a future. But I just I don't know if that's true, man. In fact, I do know that God still uses his church, and hopefully through these stories and conversations, uh we can talk more about that. But you know you have an order of service when you go to church. Oh, yeah. You gotta do things decently in order. Um, and today we have a special guest speaker. And the guest speaker today is I actually haven't known him for that long. I got to meet him at a writing camp recently, but I definitely have heard his voice all over the internet. And uh he wrote a very big song that's just huge is sung by Cece Wannins. He has his own version. Um, his story is incredible, and uh he's just a great dude. His name is Stephen McWarder. Come on, put your hands together. He sounds amazing.

SPEAKER_04 2:52

Stephen, come Jesus, come McWarder.

SPEAKER_01 2:56

Come on, man.

SPEAKER_02 2:57

A little pitchy. Oh, just kidding.

SPEAKER_01 2:59

No, you're thanks for having me. You're amazing, man. I mean, I'll be honest, you know, this is uh kind of a surprise for us today because we had somebody else scheduled to come hang some. But he couldn't make it. He couldn't make it. I'm here. You're here, now you're here. But it's not a good church service unless there's some type of unexpected situation. Amen.

SPEAKER_04 3:18

Can I say one of my favorite moments? I think the first time I saw you in person, you were doing a, is it called a writer's round? Not a writer's round. Is it a writer's round? Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 3:26

Okay, a writer's round.

SPEAKER_04 3:28

Uh and there were several other artists there singing, and everybody was sharing their you know, their testimony, the history behind a song. And then singing their song. And uh I think you were like, you went last or second to last. And so we had heard you know, some stories and some songs, some stories and some songs. And your story like blew the roof off of that place. And it was a pretty stuffy kind of setup. Sure. But you talked about, man, going through addiction, uh, where you were, how God saved you, and all that. And I remember like, man, just like the room like lit up, and then you sang a song. I thought, whoa, I didn't know that Christian artists could be real. Wow. I thought they have to give this shelled testimony of I went through a dark place at a dark time and a valley and a shadow and da-da-da-da-da. But you went, you went there. You went there, and I'm really like, man, I'm a fan. I like that guy. Oh, that's good. Because he's not he's talking, be quiet. Let him. I'm done now. I'm done now. And that's that's what I want to hear from, you know, yeah. You shared.

SPEAKER_02 4:35

That was really loved.

SPEAKER_01 4:36

I loved that. Super kind of you, man. Yeah. Um, when I called you to be here, I asked you, are you are you a grown-up church kid? Did you grow up in church? You said, I don't know if you want me on the podcast. I tried to talk myself out of it. No, I wanted to hear it. But I wanted you here because of this. Yes of that story. I know that you have a powerful story, and I know that a lot of people want to hear it. So tell us, tell us kind of where all that story started.

SPEAKER_02 4:57

Yeah, you know, people talk about being PK preacher kids, right? Were you a PK? I was. You were a preacher's kid. You were a preacher's kid? No wonder you're doing a podcast about it. I mean. But you guys had a good preacher kid. Relatively. Nobody perfect, but you had pretty good kids.

SPEAKER_04 5:14

I normally say that pastors' kids go one of two ways. They go to full-time ministry or prison. That's like the two options. So there's another way where you go in. I'm a comedian, so I'm just forgotten about death. No doubt.

SPEAKER_01 5:28

Drugs, that's a we have a fork, and the fork is a banker. We can't be a baseball player. That's a secular job.

SPEAKER_04 5:35

That's a secular job. There's some you need to pick prison, full-time minister.

SPEAKER_02 5:40

Get those jobs over to say your pastor father's like, where did I go wrong? Where did I go? You can be a doctor. He let the bank. The pastor's got a prodigal son at that point. If you work at the bank, you work at the bank? No, I mean, you guys had yeah. So for me, I wish I had that. I really do. I I wish I do, but I, you know, I wasn't a preacher's kid, I was an EK uh evangelist kid. So my dad would travel and we'd go to church camps and we spend a lot of time in different churches throughout the country, sometimes overseas. I mean, it was wild. RV, what were y'all traveling in? Mostly planes, Ozmobiles. You know, but uh I yeah, I mean, most of that was you know, really interesting because I would see my dad to get heavy, but this is this is real. Um, even to my own chagrin, right? I'm just get what you get. But my dad would get up and preach about Jesus, and people would get saved, by the way. Like lots of people get saved. You can go find my dad's sermons, Guy Stewart Recorder, Guy, your name's Guy, but Guy Stewart Recorder, you can go find him on YouTube and listen to sermons. They're really good. I mean, he's gifted. Yeah, people would come to Jesus because God's kind, he's full of grace. You know what I mean? Um, and he's still working in power through his church, regardless of sometimes how broken the vessel is, right? Wow. Because behind closed doors, my dad was like physically abusing my mom, like violently. It was crazy. So I grew up watching all of that as a kid. So my idea of church and Jesus and Christianity, all that was just it was like God was the villain in my story, with my dad being the other villain, right? So at a very young age for me, even though I was going to churches with them and doing stuff sometimes, I by 11 years old, I was smoking, drinking, marijuana, you name it. By the time I was 15, it was cocaine pills. I'm selling drugs. By the time I was 17, I became a full-out crystal meth addict. I was using like every day for gosh, so many years. And um, again, I was the guy that hated Jesus, hated Christians. True story. Everything else has been a lie. This is a true story. Great concept. By the way, I feel like I'm talking down.

SPEAKER_00 7:49

I know it's okay. It's okay.

SPEAKER_03 7:51

You just listen here.

SPEAKER_04 7:53

Hey, real quick, do you ever remember the radio program called Unshackled? No. Did you ever hear this? Okay, it was it was the it was a I can't think it was on Focus on the Family or something. Okay. But they would share these radical testimonies. It was on Saturday night. They had an organ that was part of the. You're listening to Unshackled stories of, and it was like that. I remember listening to it as a kid, and these people were like at the end of the road in terms of drugs and whatnot. I'm being like, what kind of people are the stage, sanctified church?

SPEAKER_03 8:21

And so anytime who would live like that or do that?

SPEAKER_02 8:25

I have people that say to me, Man, I wish I had your testimony. So powerful. I'm like, You wish you'd have been a meth addict?

SPEAKER_01 8:31

I would have much rather been okay. Well, let me explain that because I get it. When when you say that, it's for maybe people like us who grew up on the clean side of things externally.

SPEAKER_02 8:44

Right.

SPEAKER_01 8:44

Sometimes it's hard to pinpoint when we actually were like saved. Yeah. Oh, gosh. And like when we actually met the Lord, because our pre-Jesus life could look a lot like our post-salvation. And that's estimate to your parents, man. Yeah, seriously, man, praise God for my parents. Because I think they they just did a great job. Um But from I guess the benefit of your story is you, I'm assuming you're about to tell us about a really radical transformation. That was the end.

SPEAKER_00 9:11

I'm still on the shop. But I am a church now. I am in church. You still go to church and do other things.

SPEAKER_03 9:25

Oh, you mean you're still working on your testimony? This is unbelievable. I need a true story called it need to be done. This is an intervention. This is why we called you. I don't think you guys are gonna tell me about Jesus.

SPEAKER_01 9:38

Oh man. Uh well, what I was going to say was I appreciate stories like that because you can probably point to a season where you literally turned around and did something different. So it's encouraging to people like me who I'm like, I know, I know when I met the Lord, but man, to see the Lord work through you is really cool.

SPEAKER_02 9:56

I'd say I had like a I'm not to put myself next to Paul or anything, but it was like Damascus Road kind of vibe. You know what I mean? I uh but truthfully, during that time I hated Jesus, hated Christians, crazy man. People were praying for me, like hardcore praying for me, um, like crying, pulling over the side of the road, just boogers coming out of their nose. Like that's the Holy Spirit, by the way. That's not you. When you do that, that's not you. That's Jesus. And so God was after me. I remember somebody, I can't even remember if this is in uh it's in my book, if you want to check it out. Yes, yes, there's a story. There it is, there it is. Okay, I'm fine, it's fine. Don't if you love Jesus, you'll find it. You don't need to worry about it. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Uh the it in it, somebody asked me if I wanted to go to a Billy Graham crusade in Louisville, Kentucky. Uh, right at the end of the 90s, going into the 2000s. And I was literally, I smoked meth, and this person, it was like my sister and somebody, they were like, You gotta come, you gotta come. They were bothering me all the time. I hated it. And I was like, I'll come to the stupid thing, but you gotta leave me alone. I come literally smoke meth, go to Billy Graham Christmas. I'm sitting there watching Third Day saying, God of wonders, beyond that. And I'm like, I hate that. I just felt like I was about to crawl out of my skin. Like, and I just started cussing. I was like, I'm getting out of here. It was like all this darkness, man. It was so wild. I just ran out of there. Um, fast forward though, people were praying for me, and somebody comes and gives me this book called The Case for Christ by Lee Stroble. Um Lee wrote this book. It's basically evidence in a case for Jesus' resurrection, right? And the fact that I hated Jesus so much and all this stuff I just told you, this is the most miraculous part of the story because I didn't like cause a scene and kick somebody out of my house. I was like, cool, whatever, give me this stupid book. Fast forward, it's three o'clock in the morning. I literally have drugs on the side table next to me. Nobody's playing organ in the corner, right? Like creating a spiritual atmosphere. But and I just knew God was in the room. Like as I was reading this book, um, I just knew he was there. And I was like, God, I want to give you my life. I want to quit all this addiction, all this darkness, all this anger, all this depression. Um, and I know, like you said, I can't tell where it was like I got saved. It's really obvious for me. Right. Because I was, you just don't get any darker than what I was. I was like, God, I want to quit, but I can't do it. I remember being up for like three or four days during this time, like straight and being like, uh, I'm gonna die young. And it is what it is, because I'm not gonna quit. Like, that's a wild place to be. So when I said, God, I want to, but I can't. I just remember having this thought that I knew wasn't my own, that I knew was from the Lord, and it was this Stephen, you won't do it. I'll do it. And this is like, you know, I didn't know it, but I took God at his word, and what I didn't know is this. This is like Ephesians 2.8. You're saved by grace. This isn't something you can boast about, it's a work of God. He does it. But there's something you and I can do. Um that maybe, I mean, you probably heard this a lot, but Jesus says in John 6 29, the only work the Father asks of you, the only work is to believe. And that's what I did. I believed him, like I'm breathing air, you know, and I fell to my knees and I gave my life to Jesus. I literally quit everything overnight, drugs, which is crazy. And it's people always go, you can't say that addiction recovery ministries, because I speak a lot of that stuff, like churches with addiction recovery ministries, which is awesome. How many churches there are that have addiction recovery ministries that are like ministering to these people? It's wild. And uh, I'll speak of those, and people be like, I don't know if you should say that because you know it's discouraging for people. It's like, well, I can't lie. But also, here's the good news in the gospels, Jesus never healed anybody the same way twice. That's true. Because every story has a purpose. If it takes you five times, ten times, six times, seven times, but however long it takes, but you mean it when you do it. Yeah, that's right. Jesus is gonna use your story to draw people to him. That's right. That's the way the gospel works. It's that good and that offensive, it's awesome. Wow.

SPEAKER_01 14:10

Yeah. That's an incredible story, man.

SPEAKER_02 14:14

And then there's the and uh I didn't want to keep going. No, okay, listen, kids. Because you're taller than I'll say that.

SPEAKER_04 14:24

Get this man a beanbag. Bring this man down.

SPEAKER_02 14:28

I could just get done. Um and then became the restoration of my relationship with the church, right? And what it meant to be, you know.

SPEAKER_04 14:40

Can I ask, okay, what when you were you just done? Did you go to church less at some point in time as you were strained? Or was there a time that you were just like, I'm done?

SPEAKER_02 14:50

Through the years of addiction, you couldn't have drugged me into a church. Um, hated, hated everything about it. Um, my mom, sweet as can be, you know, she was praying for me throughout all that, man. She was, you know, going to the mat for me. Her and my grandma both. Uh prayer works. It works. Prayer works. And um, despite all that, right? Now, I remember becoming a believer, giving my life to Jesus like a year later, a very hard up um Methodist church, United Methodist Church, hired me as their worship pastor. I always say, never underestimate just how hard up a pastor is for a worship leader, because they'd be like, ex-Methodic, you say get over here and singing the contemporary service, which was like 25 people. Wow. And they slid me a list of songs I was allowed to play. And the coolest thing on that list at that time was I Can Only Imagine. And I was like, okay, by the way, in my teens and all that drugs and stuff, I was doing like metal, like screaming my head off. So I went from that to singing I Can Only Imagine. Wow. But uh it was different now because I encountered Jesus in this way that was so real to me that it was beyond just this thing that I might have been brought up around or told to believe. It was like so real. That was singing these songs to some people, you know, no offense, but might have been cheesy to some people. To me, I was like, oh my gosh, he's real, and I get to sing to him. This is crazy. Yeah. Um, that was the beginning of that journey. And I was on staff with churches, you know, for gosh, like 10 years, 11 years, something like that.

SPEAKER_01 16:24

Wow. I mean, that's pretty radical for you to go from evangelist kid, EK, to completely prodigal, gone, to staff member, and now an artist and an Christian. Now I'm Christian.

SPEAKER_02 16:38

I say I'm more of an evangelist artist than I am, which is wild. Really, really. Um, yeah, because now I travel, share, do worship, and share my story. We see like 20% of every room come to Jesus. Wow. Um, so it's kind of this weird like redemption, restoration thing. And even with my dad, man, when I gave my life to Jesus, this is crazy for probably a lot of pastors' kids out there watching this or preacher's kid or church kids that have wounds, hurts, you know, about it. Probably the crazy thing for me is when I gave my life to Jesus, I knew the first thing I was supposed to do that I knew God was calling me to do that I was like, no, was uh to forgive my dad. And I was like, this is not gonna happen. This is unimaginable. If anybody does not deserve to be forgiven, it's this guy. Now, my dad, you know, this has been like 10 years or more since my dad had like like abused my mom. At one point, we like left him in the middle of the night, and my mom came back. I wish she would have divorced him, I'll be honest. Uh, I don't condone it, whatever. But she stayed. So there was 10 years of my dad not doing that, and us just having this unbelievably strange relationship, right? So I knew I was supposed to forgive him. I was like, this is sounds horrible. I drive to his house, I walk into his room, this quintessential lazy boy, dad chair, and I'm like, hey, we need to talk. I just want to tell you, I forgive you. Uh um for all the things, blah, blah, blah. He looks at me like a deer in headlights, like reality is cracking, and he goes, Oh, okay. And then I'm like, okay, bye. And I just get in the car and drive off. It is not the scene you'd put in a movie. Sure. No beam of light came in the room or a bird landing on my shoulder. It was just awkward. And I get in the car and I drive off. But I knew God had done something beyond what I experienced in that room. And um, so you know, my wife now was my fiancee at the time. She was like, hey, she gets saved. She's like, hey, I want to, I want your dad to baptize us. I'm like, that's a terrible idea, but whatever. So on our way to get baptized by my dad, my wife and I at the time getting this unbelievable, like screaming, cussing match on our way to get baptized. We better get to fast. We only had baptism more than ever. Yeah, seriously. So we're like, we knew something was keeping us from us. We go, we get baptized, it's awesome, it's beautiful. My dad that night tells like weeps all night. My mom tells me later, going, is it possible that God could restore what I've broken? Then my wife's like, Hey, I want your dad to perform our wedding ceremony. I'm like, this marriage may not work out. The guy who was horrible to your wife. Yeah. My mom. My mom. Yes. My mom. Yeah, my wife now wants this guy to perform our wedding ceremony. What compelled her? Yeah. I will 100% say Jesus. That's it. Her knowing me, seeing what Jesus is doing in me, she's like, this is important. Um, wait, I do this. Now, at the point of us talking together right now, guys, my dad has passed from cancer almost 12 years, okay? And you know when you have somebody that's going through cancer, this very difficult moment where they end up in the hospital, hospice, right? They're in a coma, they can't speak. But the doctors and the nurses and the hospice team will tell you, just tell them it's okay to go. Because what happens is though they can't speak, they hear, and normally when you say it's okay to let go, they pass within days or moments. And uh, we've been doing this with my dad for like over a week. And I'm in the room with him, nobody else is in the room but him and I. And I'm like struggle, watching him struggle to breathe. And I'm like, okay, I think about Jesus saying to Peter, when Peter asks, Hey, how many times should I forgive my enemies? And Peter says, seven times, right? And Jesus responds, nope, seven times, seventy-seven times. Like, don't even count, just do it completely and keep going. So in that moment, I knew that God was calling me to do. I lean into my dad with tears in my eyes, and I just go, Um, Dad, I forgive you for real, and I love you. He breathed his last in that moment, his soul left, his body, and here's what I learned. The most Jesus-like thing that we can do on this side of eternity in this church, in this world, is to forgive. It is the hardest and most important thing we can do. And what it is, is it's like a real debt that somebody owes you. Or maybe you owe somebody, right? But they owe you, that you can tear up. Now that doesn't mean you're gonna be in a relationship with them. That doesn't mean they get access depending on what they did. That doesn't mean you condone it, but you do love them and you do. Wow. That blows my mind, and that is the crux of my story, I feel like, is like God restored all of that. He did. And he's still restoring it. Yeah. That's crazy. Would you like to confess something?

SPEAKER_01 21:34

I I I actually do. Because you down there like young man, would you like to confess that? Well, no, I'm just I'm just thinking of of how hard that is to do. And it is if you do it. Right. Right. Right. I mean Isn't that wild? Here here's it's hard to forgive anybody. It's really hard to forgive someone who you looked or wanted to look up to as a Spiritual role model who was kind of blazing the trail of how to live like Jesus. That feels like very like he's easy to make.

SPEAKER_02 22:09

Can I say something?

SPEAKER_01 22:10

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 22:11

Because I'm gonna know what we see is we see mega pastor, like celebrity pastors, we see someone's pastor or worship leader, whatever. They fall, and then people go, I'm done. I don't believe anymore. Then I didn't do a good job of introducing you to Jesus. I was only like, look at me, and I'll tell you Jesus is. Um if we teach people how to know who Jesus, really know Jesus, when nobody's around, like really know him, that's the foundation that cannot crumble. That's right. When something comes at you. So fine, a megapastor falls, Jesus didn't fall, that person fell. That's right. That's the difference. That's right. That's the narrow way that a lot of people don't go. They don't take it because it's not popular.

SPEAKER_01 22:54

That's right. That's so true. I think when you talk about forgiveness specifically of pastors and church leaders, um it seems like people are leaning toward condemning those people. Like they are excommunicated, they are deserving their punishment, and depending on what they did, their consequences to your decisions.

SPEAKER_06 23:16

Uh-huh.

SPEAKER_01 23:16

Um, but how do you wrestle with this current kind of cancel culture meets kind of uncovering of secret sins with forgiveness? Because I I sense people may be saying, like, yeah, I want to forgive somebody, but we still have to deal with the hardness of someone making a terrible decision in church.

SPEAKER_02 23:37

Now, if if someone's doing something between forgiving and condoning, right, yeah, and you know, allowing. Right. Those are those are different things. Right. Um I think the crux of the problem is repentance. Like people, we have a taboo idea of what repentance is, meaning like if you mention it in church, people are like careful right there. Because uh, if I repent, that sounds like, oh, everybody's gonna find out the terrible, awful, disgusting thing I did, and I'm gonna lose everything. Um no one's ever gonna talk to me again. But in the Bible, this thing that we talk about every time repentance is mentioned, blessing is attached. Think about this. Um Deuteronomy, Jesus, when the when he says, If my people are called my people will turn from their wicked ways and turn to me, then I will hear their prayers and I will heal their land. That sounds pretty good. Yeah, to turn away is repentance, is to turn from death, to turn from this thing to this good thing. That's right. Later in Acts 3.19, 20, Peter says, Repent so that the time of refreshment will come from the Lord. We always go, but see, we always think, oh no, I'm gonna get canceled. But see, Jesus is calling us from death to life to turn from this thing that's hurting us to this other thing. Wow. Are there consequences for our behavior? Yes. But I'm covered by the righteousness of Jesus. Follow with me for a minute. I'm a saved, and I can't speak for people's salvation, but if they've given their life to Jesus, they really believe in him, they've made a terrible mistake, they repent, they're dealing with the consequences. I can be a saved, like covered by the righteousness of Jesus. Punch somebody in a parking lot, I'm gonna now be in jail, but I'm still gonna be covered by the righteousness of Jesus. Yeah, yeah. It's the same thing for covered in jail. You know what I mean? You're still covered in jail. Covered in Jesus' bomb and Christian RB album. Yeah, no, you're right. I think it's the fear of that, but there's something so good God wants to do on the other side of it. Forget about the consequences of this world. Yeah. There's something, this kingdom advancing through your life that's gonna heal generations to come because you trusted the grace and the and the power and the love of Jesus over the systems of a world. That's right. And that's hard for us to do because we let our emotions and our thoughts as pastors, as people, yeah, social media, all these things, we let it all define our our the way we act or the things we share or what we do, it's out of fear of something being taken from us.

SPEAKER_01 26:04

Yeah. But no, that's true. That's true. What you're talking about is identity versus like activity. You're saying that who I am is more important than what I do, even though what I do is still important, it doesn't override who I am in Christ. And hopefully who you are starts to impact your behavior. Because I hear from your story, it's like you couldn't quit doing meth on your own.

SPEAKER_02 26:30

Yeah, you don't end up a meth addict because you got really great willpower. Right, right, right, right, right. Right.

SPEAKER_01 26:35

Jesus changed your life, he changed your heart, which in turn changed your behavior. And um sometimes churches can be some of the hardest places to really let someone change from death to life because we remember where the person was. Um but I celebrate your story, man. That's an incredible, incredible story.

SPEAKER_02 26:54

I believe it's probably not the only one. There's a lot of them. But we're not set up in the greatest way yet. Sure. To like a lot of churches are, man. I'm so proud of the churches I see today that have so many ministries surrounding this kind of stuff that brings grace. Yeah, it's awesome.

SPEAKER_01 27:14

What would you have wanted to someone to say to you? Your mom was praying for you, your family was praying for you. If you could go back to that time and take one sentence from that for people who are in that spot, what would you have wanted to hear that would have inspired?

SPEAKER_02 27:31

Uh yeah. Uh you don't know who you are yet. The real you is the you fully alive in Jesus. You think you know who you are. You're like, you're not gonna trick me. I've lived enough life, I've figured me out, I know what's going on. You don't. You don't yet. The whole thing about what is it, deception is that you don't know you're deceived. That's right, that's right. I didn't know I was deceived. I thought I was the smartest guy in the room. Turned out I couldn't see past all the brokenness and all the things to see who I really was in Christ, who I was called to be. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 28:02

It's awesome. That's awesome. I just want to celebrate Billy Graham. Dude, power. I mean powerhouse. What a ministry. Crusades over the whole country. He put he platforms some of the these artists that were looking for a way to get their music out. Thousands and thousands of people coming down to receive Jesus. And we just don't talk about that as much, I think, as we should. We talk way more about the fallen people. And Billy Graham was a perfect, I'm sure. And there may be some.

SPEAKER_02 28:30

The reason I felt that way in that place was the presence of Jesus. Wow. Coming against the brokenness in me. I couldn't take it. Wow. That's how powerful it was. Yeah. And you didn't even walk down that night. No, I walked out. Yeah, I walked out that night because of the palpable presence of God in the room. Wow. But that was the beginning of being phone to Jesus. Yeah. You know? Um true story. Sorry. Yeah. Four ministers and pastors out there. I this is I've had this confirmed by a lot of people, so I'm not just talking. But somebody asked Billy Graham on his deathbed, like, if there was anything he regretted. Have you heard this? He said, I wish I would have traveled less and spent more time in prayer at home with my family in the work. This was a guy that every time he went out, tens of thousands of people got saved. The point in this isn't don't go out. The point is that we let ministry for Jesus trump ministry with Jesus. And those are two different things. That's true. That's true. Um, and the two aren't always going to thousands of people. Sometimes it's a balance.

SPEAKER_01 29:41

Yeah. Okay, so Shama, Steven, we're all dads. How old are your kids?

SPEAKER_04 29:46

Six and a half, four and a half, three, and I have a month and a half old.

SPEAKER_02 29:53

Time for them all to get jobs.

SPEAKER_04 29:55

They need to start chipping in.

SPEAKER_02 29:57

Get out there and hit a lick. Four kids. Four kids.

SPEAKER_01 30:01

Incredible. How many young? How many? What about you? I've got two. I got a nine and a seven.

SPEAKER_02 30:05

You guys are in that little 21. I have a full-grown human. Full grown uh man. It's a man. Yes. Yes, you have a man cub. Man. Well, not a man cub. I have an 18-year-old son, I have an 11-year-old son. Wow. So we had two kids raise our youngest kid. That's cool. I always dumb headfather. Is that the hat?

unknown 30:25

Is that the hat?

SPEAKER_02 30:26

I don't know if there is one. I know that it didn't hurt, you know. Yeah. So for nice to have one that they take the other one to school. Yeah. It's like I won the lottery.

SPEAKER_04 30:38

I'm at the hey, can you take this diaper to the trash can? Yeah. And the what you can. Got it. I can reach the sink, Dad, and like, oh good, buddy. You want to buy a big boy? Change a boopy dying?

SPEAKER_01 30:49

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_04 30:50

Yeah. Put them to work. Put them to work.

SPEAKER_01 30:52

I mean, all three of us are in some way entrepreneurs. We all are kind of forming a business that doesn't really exist with the 401k and all the things. We we're trying to do something that we're inspired to do, that we want to wake up and do and provide for our families. What you just said about Billy Graham, to me, that's an area that I want to grow in because I'm driven to be successful. And specifically successful in ministry and see people like Jesus. So, how do y'all do that? How do you get up in the morning and try to be what Billy Graham wanted to be while we're still breathing? Because I need help with that. I I definitely wake up driven to succeed.

SPEAKER_02 31:31

And I have set my life up only in recent years to clock out at four o'clock. Okay. Now, if I'm if I travel, which I'm traveling less, by the way, um you know, we did some arena tours where I was gone for six weeks straight on one day. I said, nope, no, I'm not doing that. Seven's good, I'm good. And uh yeah, so I I try to clock out at five. I mean, anything that has to have my attention after that, if it falls apart if I don't look at it, it's probably, you know, not worth doing. It'll be okay. Nobody's gonna die. You know what I mean? It's like the all this stuff feels everything feels important at the time. It does, yeah. My wife loves checking off her to-do list. Very a type, you know, personality. I'm like, that list doesn't stop. Right. You got you have to stop at four or five o'clock or whatever, and just be a family, just be together. Yeah, how do you do that, Shama?

SPEAKER_04 32:26

Man, I guess it's always on my mind. Like I'm really am thinking. I've heard of multiple ministers and people who I think were really successful at what they did always talk about how much emphasis they wish they would have put on family. Um I would say even for my my parents too, like, you know, I think for years, my family, we didn't do family vacation. We'd go to a conference or like a retreat and maybe, you know, dad will love this vacation. The hotel has a pole. Yes. Oh yeah, oh yeah. Every summer. Yeah, I think there are a lot of people now who are, but we really are thinking about these things. Like you're talking about, hey, I did the six-week thing, I'm not doing that again. I'm in that same boat where I'm like, hey man, I I want to work, I want to do the thing, but I can't, it can't supersede family. Yeah. Um, I really want to be like a I really want to be a great husband and a great dad. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I feel like everything else kind of like it's like, man, I just really like these humans are important to me.

SPEAKER_02 33:39

Right. Um some people are in a place where they're like, I want to want that. Like if they're honest. Yeah. Uh you know, like the most honest prayer you could pray is I want to want you more, Jesus. Or I want to want to be a better father than I do, a better husband than I do. That sounds terrible. Yeah. No, but it's honest. Yeah, that's a pretty honest prayer. Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 34:01

I haven't been a successful comedian.

SPEAKER_02 34:03

And in a way, I'm not sure. He's working on it. He's working on it. That's why everyone knows.

SPEAKER_04 34:09

He doesn't know that we have in a way, people are like, oh, you should be da-da-da-da-da. You should you didn't do this, you don't know that person. But in a way, I'm like, yeah, I'm like, I'm home, like making pancakes on random days because I'm home. I'm like, hey, let's all go bowling.

SPEAKER_01 34:25

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 34:26

Because I'm not booked.

SPEAKER_01 34:27

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_04 34:28

So even that, thinking about it in a way where sometimes you know, have like these moments of clarity, you know, when you're home, you're like, I should not be here right now. I should be working, I should be grinding, hustling. But then I'm like, no, this is a blessing. This is the mundane, this, I don't know, picking up toys in the backyard. I get to be a bigger one.

SPEAKER_02 34:45

You know what? I'm out of here.

SPEAKER_03 34:49

He just drove back to Kentucky. He left, he left the middle of the podcast.

SPEAKER_01 34:53

No, no, no. No, I feel that. I mean, I've I Laura, my wife and I, we we talk a lot because she ends up being the one that holds me accountable to doing this well.

SPEAKER_04 35:02

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 35:03

Um, and I tell her, when she says, Hey, you're we're working a lot, you probably need to spend some time, I say, Well, I'm working for y'all so that I can one day in the future have the resources to keep the refrigerator on and to keep the mortgage paid. And she'll say, I'd rather have less with you than more without you. And that's been really hard to accept because my, I guess my provider side of me wants to be like, I hear you, but if these lights aren't on, if I if they come looking for this electric bill and I don't have it, are you gonna say the same thing? And and from her heart, she was like, that's an extreme case, but yeah, I do want you with the kids more than I want a new shiny thing. Yeah. And I'm reading this book right now, and the author was saying that a lot of people in ministry and entrepreneurship, they hide in miss in ministry and business because that's where they get all their validation from.

SPEAKER_04 35:59

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 35:59

And the validation that they don't get from home or from their wives or from their kids, they find in charts and success and listeners and ticket sales.

SPEAKER_02 36:09

And um It sounds like a guy just threw his wife right under the bus right now. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. This book is called It's All Her Fault.

SPEAKER_01 36:19

Well, he was he was saying the opposite. He was saying No, I'm kidding, yeah. He was saying my and the same for me too. It's like those things can actually feel validating until you talk to your wife. And your wife is like, yeah, but you might end up like Billy Graham on your deathbed and having all of those things even more, and still be like, man, I I should have just held my kid on a Friday night. So I'm wrestling with that too, man. I I I think that's something I want to grow in, is prioritizing the things that really matter. And still be killing out in the You won't regret it. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Um one thing I want to ask you, you're doing really well, really well, by the way. I mean you're told me. You're you got a new book that that is called Radically Restored: How Knowing Jesus Heals Our Brokenness. Powerful. Powerful book. I wrote a big boy book.

SPEAKER_02 37:06

It's no pop-up. A color book. Big boy book.

SPEAKER_01 37:09

Yeah. It says from the singer's songwriter of Come, Jesus Come, which is a huge song, man. Congratulations on that song. Crazy. Ring a double ward, right? Yeah. Um, it's got CeCe Wyinins on a version. I heard it's got Shirley Caesar on a version. Um, obviously your version is awesome as well. That's great, man.

SPEAKER_02 37:26

We I do love, if you were to ask me who who would you want to cover that song besides you, if I was to pick one person, I think it probably would have been CeC.

SPEAKER_01 37:35

Wow, she's I mean, she's incredible. And she she crushed it.

SPEAKER_02 37:38

She did?

SPEAKER_01 37:38

She crushed it. She crushed it. Um how what's what's going on music for? You're just doing more music? You got more music coming out or chilling? What are you doing? I just do music all the time.

SPEAKER_02 37:47

This is what I do. Clock in like I said, clock in at nine, clock out at five, create with the Lord, and release. Let it go.

SPEAKER_01 37:53

Yeah. Yeah, that's great. Yeah. It just seemed cool. Cool. Um, well, if you guys are looking for new music, you want to hear some great songs. Um, Steven's got some great songs. Check out the version with Cece, but also check out his YouTube channel, all the things he's got going on. He's got an incredible voice. So good that we couldn't let you leave without singing some songs with us. So um, if you don't mind, let's sing. Maybe it's maybe it's an old school hymn or something we could do. We'll do it. We can sing together. Okay, awesome. Thanks for being here, Steven. It's been great having you. Appreciate you all awesome.