The Van Der Linde Gang

Welcome to The Outlaw Haven podcast! In this episode we talk about the member's of the Van der Linde gang, and give a general overview of the characters. 

Transcript

SPEAKER_01 0:00

By 1899, the age of outlaws and gunsingers was at an end, and we've been mourning it ever since. Welcome to the Outlaw Haven, your home for Red Dead Redemption in the Wild West. I'm Sam. I'm Zah. Today we are talking about the Vanderlyn Gang. Before we get started, we wanted to thank everyone for the incredible amount of love and support we've already gotten with the release of our first two episodes of The Outlaw Haven. We're so excited for what's to come and we're so happy to have you here. Whether you've platinum the game or you've never played it and just want to hang out with us. For our first two episodes, we wanted to just get them out and dip our toes in the water, but from here on out, we will be sticking to a set upload schedule of every Thursday at 3 a.m. Eastern Time. So make sure you follow or subscribe wherever you get your podcasts so you don't miss an episode. Because you won't want to miss what we have planned. Now that we got announcements out of the way, let's dive into the Vanderlyn gang. We'll just be doing a general overview of everyone in the gang today, just as a bit of an introduction, and then we'll be doing full episodes as deep dives into individual characters later on. So make sure you stick around for those. You won't want to miss them. No. And I'm gonna be real with everyone right from the get-go. Yes. Well, very late last night, and we had two hours recorded. We nailed it, it was amazing. It was great. We had so many bits. And we lost it. So the entire file was gone. So this is round two. So if we sound like we are on our last brain cell, it's because our last brain cells are hanging on by a thread right now. Okay. No one got that out of the way. We're gonna start with Mac and Davy calendar. We're starting with these characters that we know less about and working into the ones that we know the most about. So, Mac and Davy calendar, we don't know a whole lot about them. We know that Mac was killed in Blackwater, and we know that Davy was shot in Blackwater, but died when they get to Coulter. And we know that they are vicious bastards and heartless bastards that still have a heart. We don't know a whole lot more about them though. We know that the gang misses them.

SPEAKER_00 2:06

And I mean, aside from of course their deaths, both you know, dying in the massacre, basically.

SPEAKER_01 2:15

And we know that Davy is buried in uh Coulter behind the church, that cemetery, but we do not have a grave for Mac. If he is buried in Blackwater, we don't know where it is, it's unmarked. It's I've I've seen a grave like on online, but I don't think that was real, so I could be wrong on that. But that leads us into Jenny Kirk, who is also buried not in Coulter, but just north of it. And we've talked about this before that it's very strange that she's not buried in Coulter, but she's buried near Coulter, she's up near Spider Gorge. Don't really know a whole lot about her other than Lenny was sweet on her. She was pretty young. She had some spark, and she was also shot in Blackwater. I would love to find out more about Jenny Kirk if there is a Red Dead 3. Well, when there is a Red Dead 3, I'm not gonna put that negativity into the universe, right? All right, now moving on to Josiah Trelawney, who is played by Steven Gevedin. I think so, yeah. I'm going to butcher these names. I butchered them last night. I'm gonna butcher them again today. I'm so sorry. You know, you would have thought we would have looked these up, but no. We're so tired at this point, man. So Josiah Trelawney, he comes and goes with the gang. We see him in bits and pieces throughout the story until he actually stays with the gang for a while between chapter three till chapter six. And we also know that Josiah Trelawney has a secret family in Saint Denis that you can you can listen to. You can't meet them or anything, but you can find his apartment in Saint-Denis and hear the conversations he has with his wife and children. Yeah, it's interesting. And then there's that dialogue about the the rotten oysters that you brought up.

SPEAKER_00 4:10

Yes. The uh rotten oysters were of course we hear it with Dutch originally during A New South in the very beginning of chapter three, and I didn't think of it until the other night when I was playing Icarus and Sun in chapter six, the mission where you where Sadie introduces you to Arturo Bullard, the guy who takes you up in the hot air balloon, and he says something about how he once had a customer who fell ill to a rotten oyster, and I kind of was just like, wait a minute. Right?

SPEAKER_01 4:46

And Bullard also has the English accent, so yeah. So it I mean, just like the general vibe of Arturo, you're like, this dude knows Trelawney.

SPEAKER_00 4:59

Oh, a thousand percent. I mean, plus two, it's Sandonie related, so it's like that too, it makes sense.

SPEAKER_01 5:07

Okay, Uncle played by James McBride, John O'Cray, rest in peace, and spider Madison in Red Dead 1. Three different actors for him, and O'Cray's run in Red Dead 2 is named after John O'Cray.

SPEAKER_00 5:24

Yes, very cool little detail. He also, all of Uncle's singing lines, they are all still John O'Cray. Everything else is James McBride. So when we get that, when we're in that mission in the epilogue with John, Charles, and Uncle, all of that singing is all John. And of course, hearing them around camp, that's all John as well. Which is just a really cool that they kept that in to kind of still honor them. And of course, naming O'Cray's run after him is great. And they did something similar with Mount Hagen. Of course, that's the kind of penultimate location of when we get to the end of the game, because it's where the showdown goes down with Micah and Dutch. And that is named after Ross Hagen, who played Lanton Ricketts in Red Dead Redemption 1, and he died shortly after I think Red Dead One was released. So that was another yeah, cool way of honoring him. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 6:33

Uncle is just kind of like the entertainment of the gang. He's the one who introduced Abigail into the gang. He met her in a saloon and liked her and brought her back to the gang. He likes banjo. He's he's got lombago. He's got lombago. Yeah. You do a few missions with Uncle, and they typically go wrong in some capacity, or they're just a little chaotic. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 6:58

I think the only one that goes right is really the Rhodes bank robbery.

SPEAKER_01 7:02

The Rhodes Bank robbery. And that one's only with the ultimate edition, isn't it?

SPEAKER_00 7:06

A special edit special or ultimate.

SPEAKER_01 7:09

Okay. Yeah. That one's a fun one though. It is. And you wouldn't think that a mission with Charles, Arthur, and Uncle would be as fun as it is. Right? They're like bickering is always fun. Yes.

SPEAKER_00 7:21

I love the bickering lines.

SPEAKER_01 7:23

Now moving on to Reverend Swanson, played by Sean Haberly, which the interesting detail about this is that Maggie Feich in Red Dead Online is played by Sean Haberly's wife, Stephanie. And in the mission where we go get Reverend Swanson back from what's the train station? Flatneck Station. I don't know why I can never remember that. The mission where we get Reverend from Flatneck Station, he is drunkenly blabbering about wanting to go have tea with Margaret. And I think that's kind of a funny little detail that he might be talking about Maggie Fike, who we know is the one in charge of the moonshine distribution. If you're in the moonshiner role, and Reverend Swanson has a morphine addiction. And if you go find his Bible in camp, it's not a Bible, that's his stash.

SPEAKER_00 8:21

Very much so, not a Bible. I remember the first time I came across it. It was like wild. I'm like, oh, what's this?

SPEAKER_01 8:28

Oh, okay. And Reverend Swanson has a pretty interesting redemption arc where we see him really just off the rails in the beginning of the story. But as we progress, and after we get through Saint Denis, we are in chapter six. Reverend cleans up his act, and we have some pretty heavy conversations with Arthur and Reverend before Arthur's passing. So yeah. And then what do we find out about Reverend after?

SPEAKER_00 8:59

In the epilogue, if you buy one of the newspapers, you can read that he become he went to New York and he opened, I think he opened his new his own church out there. Which is I mean, good for him. Right. I feel like he's one of the ones that does have like a pretty strong redemption arc. Definitely. Next we have Simon Pearson, uh, who is played by Jim Santangeli. He's the camp cook. He served in the Navy for a little bit. He grew up, I think, fairly well off. His dad was in getting like whale oil. So of course, being that that would have been mid-1800s, of course, business is booming at that point. And that's what Pearson kind of wanted to do is go into getting whale oil. And after he ended up getting out of school, that business was already starting to decline, and nobody really wanted it anymore. So then he went off into the navy, served in the navy for a little bit, and then he ended up moving out west. He got into some trouble. He ended up trying to be forced into marrying this one girl, and uh that's kind of when Dutch found him at his wits end and brought him in, and then it became the camp camp cook.

SPEAKER_01 10:38

And Jim actually has been very busy since Red Dead with streaming, and he made the Pearson Stew seasoning, which was very good. I did try it. It was. I was kind of heartbroken like opening it. I didn't want to. It's that's why I'm packaging is really pretty. I know I should have bought two, but I just I spent so much money while we were out there. Yep. He also was uh creating some tarot card art. Yes, oh my god, he is an amazing artist. He is, and he created the artwork for the seasoning packet as well. Yes, very talented artist. Next is Leopold Strauss himself.

SPEAKER_00 11:21

Okay, I've got it right here. Leopold or Herr Strauss, as he's called most of the time. He's the money lender for the gang, and of course, he gets Arthur to do a lot of his do-gooding for him. And he's a shifty man, but he grew up poor. He has had some health issues, um, I think so with like along with the rest of his family. And then at the age of 17, he him and his uncle, I believe, went on to the boat and went into New York, but everything was on fire. And this is the one of the great fires in New York shortly after the Civil War happened, and his uncle ended up dying, and then soon after, of course, he was left alone and kind of fend for himself, and he tried he was trying to like scam the wrong people for a while, didn't work out well for him, and of course, the touch found him, like he finds every mostly everyone else, and took him under his wing, and he's kind of just been, yeah, there, at least kind of working for a good while.

SPEAKER_01 12:42

And Howard, who played Leopold Strauss, Howard Panhasik, when we met him in Deadwood, he's very nice. I found out that he's all them are they are there. We have nice things to say about everyone in this cast, but Howard, I found out actually went he graduated college in Ohio, which is where I live, which I just think is interesting, but also like it's Ohio, who cares? I know there's some buck guys that are probably gonna be listening to this that are like oh eight. So, and uh aside from Howard, also Steve Palmer, who played Bill Williams and was also from Ohio, I believe Cincinnati, but he I'm I'm like 98% sure it was Cincinnati. I think that that sounds right, yeah. I'm pretty sure because I think you talked about something about with the Cincinnati zoo I've never been to, but still cool to some people if you're from Ohio. The rest of the world does not care about Ohio, like Ohio cares about Ohio. Kieran Duffy, played by Pico Alexander. Oh, Kieran.

SPEAKER_00 13:49

He's the whipping boy in general dog's body for of course the odriscals. And he was captured, of course, as we talked about last episode, in when you're coming back from the Odriscola gang hideout by Lake Isabela Lake Isabella. And he for most of the good part of the starting part of the game, he's tied to a tree, and when he's once he actually gets untied to the tree and becomes a part of the gang, he's always fighting to kind of earn his place and prove that he isn't no Driscoll, but he kind he knows at the same time that none of his associates are gonna like fully trust him. And we get a few little camp interactions with Kieran. We see that he's taking care of the gang hor horses a lot, and we also get the encounter to go fishing with him in chapter three, and we end up going just right by Clemens Point, and we find when we're fishing, a uh naked man also comes swimming by, but um actually gives some good information about a giant bluegill that's just over the corner. So that gets Kieran like super excited, and they end up going over there trying to catch it, and you can catch it in that mission. It acts it's supposed to act as like your intro to catching the legendary fish. But if you do have the um special lake spinner, and if you take it during that mission, you can catch it, and then Kieran will kind of would be like amazing. Kieran will get so jealous, yeah. He's jealous to catch that fish, yeah. Jealous and giddy.

SPEAKER_01 15:44

Yeah, yeah. He's he's a he's nice about it, but he's a little jealous, yes.

SPEAKER_00 15:49

And then, of course, one of the craziest moments in the game, which we we'll get to when we get into chapter four. But after Jack's return party, he disappears, and then a few missions later, he comes back into camp on a horse, missing his eyeballs. Oh my god, and without a head. Well, he has his head, but it doesn't rest in peace, Kieran.

SPEAKER_01 16:19

That death is so brutal, so nasty. So sad. And he and Mary Beth were like just starting to be like sweet on each other, and it was like he was so hopeful. He was like finally finding his place with the gang, feeling like he fit in somewhere for the first time in his life. If I could save anyone in this game, I mean obviously I want to save Lenny too, but like I want to save everyone, I want to save Sean, I want to save Jose, I want to save Lenny. But Kieran was like, there's so much potential for like a good redemption arc there. Yes, like so much potential there, and I just was I would have loved to see where he and Mary Beth would have ended up. Yes, would have been yeah, it would have been cool. Yep. Okay, moving on to Miss Molly O'Shea.

SPEAKER_00 17:06

Yes, Molly O'Shea, Penny O'Brien. Of course, she's Dutch's love interest in the game, and she also isn't until she isn't, and then she has a very brutal death. Oh my god. Penny's acting in that scene is phenomenal, so phenomenal. I'm like Molly deep dive, just so we can talk about her death the entire time.

SPEAKER_01 17:32

I mean, there's a lot to talk about with Molly, which honestly doesn't have a whole lot of like lines with you or anything.

SPEAKER_00 17:39

Like, she's no in she doesn't the one mission we think is maybe gonna be a Molly mission. Uncle interrupts.

SPEAKER_01 17:46

Yep, but I feel like there's just so much potential. Like Molly is such a deep character that yes, we I think don't get enough interaction with.

SPEAKER_00 17:58

Definitely don't get enough, but we get to see her and Dutch's relationship kind of go from you go from that honeymoon phase honeymoon phase to in chapter three arguing every single morning. Yeah, it's very it's a very quick decline, very quick, such a quick decline. But of course, she's our Dublin girl, and she's come I've seen kind of some theories where like she doesn't actually come from like a high class family. It doesn't really they don't go that far, but in the book it's says that like she comes from a high strung family, and she moved to America for a sense of adventure, and then of course she met Dutch and fell for Dutch and then got brought into the gang, and it's kind of been her life since then. But she considers herself a couple notches above all of the other gang members. She's a bit too high and mighty. Yeah, and we met Penny in Deadwood, and I talked to her about that her death scene, and she said that it was so intimidating because there was so many like everyone was just standing around her, and it was just her like making such a big scene, yes, her screaming and crying and carrying on and she said it they had to do it so many times it was exhausting, and she's like it was just so intimidating because everyone's just standing around watching me, yeah, because it's I think in one of her recent interviews that um she just did, she talked about it on there as well, and yeah, she said the same thing on like how intimidating it was just because nobody else had any lines, and it was just her going on this monologue, and she they had to do it like 10 to 15 times, and she just gave it her all every single time until yeah, they finally got one that stuck, and it's it's the one death that is always gonna stick with you because it just felt unnecessary.

SPEAKER_01 20:32

Because we find out later that Molly was sweated a few times by the Pinkertons and they she wouldn't talk, so they let her go. So she wasn't the rat that she says she was.

SPEAKER_00 20:41

No, and it's interesting because as soon as of course that is where chapter five ends and chapter six begins, but after like that loading screen ends and we get back into the game as Arthur, there's an argument between Karen and Susan that we'll get kind of we'll get into here when we yeah, get into Karen and Susan.

SPEAKER_01 21:11

Right. There's also a theory about uh the letter that you find in Hanging Dog after you go back with Sadie in chapter six and you finish off the Odriscolls, you find a letter written by Colm while he was in prison.

SPEAKER_00 21:27

You find it's to Tom from Colm, and it's the one guy that Sadie ends up killing. And fun fact, that guy, he was also played by Jim Stantangeli. Who played Simon Pearson?

SPEAKER_02 21:41

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 21:41

So technically he did die in the game. Oof. But yeah, this letter says something about being in bed with a loudmouth red haired woman, and he says, You should know of whom I speak. And the theory is that that was Molly O'Shea. Which it Does kind of work because she was in Saint Denis and Comb was in Saint-Denis.

SPEAKER_00 22:05

Yep. And well, that is where he got arrested at the same time. He did get arrested when he was in bed with a woman. So And of course Penny does make she's not so much into the the acting scene currently, but she is a musician. Her stage name is Agretta. Highly suggest her music. She has been on my top artist for the past like two years. Yeah, you are a big fan. She's very talented. Okay.

SPEAKER_01 22:34

Tilly Jackson. Tilly Jackson played by Mia Davis. Another sweetheart. They're all sweethearts. I love them all. They're amazing. Tilly Jackson has also a very interesting backstory. Very interesting backstory. She joined the gang in the same year as John Marston, 1885. I'll let you do your thing.

SPEAKER_00 23:00

She's an outlaw for almost as long as she can remember. She ran with another gang who kidnapped her from her mother when she was just 12 years old. After years of abuse, she killed one of the gang members and fled. And then she was getting into trouble and of course fell in with the Dutch in 85. But this gang is the Foreman brothers. And she gets into a encounter with the head leader Anthony Foreman in chapter two during the Mission Polite Society Valentine's style. And Arthur kind of has to stop it. And then in chapter three, she kind of expresses her concern that she's so close to where like they are, which is very true because they are quite literally like they're like right across the street. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 23:57

They're right across the street from Anthony Foreman when they are at Clemens Point.

SPEAKER_00 24:01

Maybe not across the street, but very, very close. Basically across, I mean, yeah, a little ways, but practically it's right across the street from Rhodes. So and then, of course, in chapter four, she ends up getting kidnapped by Anthony Foreman, and Arthur and Susan go and save her, of course. And you go through, you capture, you kill most of the Foreman boys, and you capture Anthony and bring him back, and you get a choice on whether to kill or spare Anthony Foreman. If you kill him, you slit his throat. But if you spare him in the epilogue, you do get a bounty you can do with the John in Sandini that is Anthony Foreman. And you can go ahead and once you are bringing him in, he will or John will say something about how like he knew Tilly Jackson and Anthony Foreman will continue to talk on the back of that.

SPEAKER_01 25:14

I need to play this because I've never done that. I've always killed Anthony Foreman. So I really I want to play this again and spare him and see what happens.

SPEAKER_00 25:23

Yeah, I haven't I think it's I've maybe spared him like two times. Otherwise, yeah, I'm killing him.

SPEAKER_01 25:29

I always just kind of assumed that it would be kind of like the situation in the epilogue where you have the option to kill or spare Cleet, and Badie kills him anyway. So I kind of just assumed that Susan would kill Anthony anyway. I know that's kind of I'm kind of surprised that they didn't go that route.

SPEAKER_00 25:50

Mm-hmm. Because that's what I just always assumed would happen. I was like, no, I want to beat you to it. That's very on brand for Susan. It is.

SPEAKER_01 25:59

Poor Molly. Right? But I do love the relationship that Susan and Tilly have. Susan seems to have a very close relationship with Tilly.

SPEAKER_00 26:08

Yes, it seems to be that that is the only like good relationship that Susan has with any of the girls.

SPEAKER_01 26:18

I mean she she has relationships with them, but I feel like she's they're a little bit on the toxic side. Yeah, we always see her yelling at them to get back to work and stuff. But yeah, we do have another interaction, which this leads us into Mary Beth Gaskill, played by Sam Strelitz. And she we have the interaction Mary Beth is a romantic very into books, and she's talking about being hit on by Dutch. We have an interaction with Mary Beth and Susan, where we find out that Susan was engaged before she met Dutch. And Susan gets very teared up about this. So I think there are quite a few interactions, which we'll get into Susan next, but we can talk more about Mary Beth. Mary Beth first.

SPEAKER_00 27:13

Yes, she her mom died a typhoid, I think, when she was still a kid. I forget what she says about her dad, but she kind of talks about her past with Arthur in the beginning of No No Trice No, the mission to where you go and save Tilly. And but she grew up a thief, pickpocketing, and that's how she met Dutch. I think she was she was going going around pickpocketing, and I think she was like, I think she maybe no, she didn't try to she was just pickpocketed like a group or something, and she uh she was she was running off she was getting chased by a bunch of men in a town, and that's when Dutch and Arthur and whoever else was there, I guess, yeah, found her running, getting chased by these men, and they were like, Oh, who are all these mean men chasing this poor girl?

SPEAKER_01 28:08

And then they save her and find out that she had a pocket full of watches and uh wallets and whatever she picked off of them. Yeah, so Arthur says that Mary Beth can handle herself, she can pick a pocket faster than you can blink. Yeah, so we do the one mission with Mary Beth where we it's an optional one, but you go with Mary Beth and Sean and you rob a stagecoach.

SPEAKER_00 28:30

There's also kind of a fun theory with Mary Beth where people have thought that maybe she is the um missing princess. That you can find the that was supposed to be cut content. Well, that is cut content that you can still find the poster for up in Van Horn, I believe.

SPEAKER_01 28:51

Yes, it is in Van Horn, it is on the outside of the saloon in Van Horn, Princess Isabeau. Yes. The the theory is that Mary Beth is Princess Isabeau. And I feel like we've kind of gone back and forth on whether we believe that one or not.

SPEAKER_00 29:09

Because it's like it's one where the ages they do kind of line up because she's early 20s, and it would be, I think, about right for can't exactly remember like when she goes, when the princess goes missing, but I think it kind of lines up.

SPEAKER_01 29:32

Yeah, I think the reason why I don't fully believe that one is because I think in the picture of her in the poster, there's she has a birthmark.

SPEAKER_00 29:41

Oh, yeah, that's right.

SPEAKER_01 29:43

The theory that I heard was that there is a woman that is on the wagon when you um when you go with Bo to help Penelope when you go into roads on the the women's rights movement wagon. One of the women on the wagon has that birthmark. Oh, but I've gone into photo mode on that scene and I have looked at that woman that they said has it, and I she hardly even has like a rendered face, at least on my end.

SPEAKER_00 30:17

So I I don't know if that's her or not. I it's like I know it is cut content because there is if you have mods and if you go on PC, you can find her model, especially something that was just like fully cut, but it's again theories are always fun. Yeah, there's fun, of course.

SPEAKER_01 30:36

Yeah, we'll have a whole episode of theories, so we'll save that for another day. Speaking of theories, and this will lead us into our next character. There's a theory you find Mary Beth at the train station in Rhodes in the epilogue as John, and Mary Beth has been very busy since the days of the gang. She is now a published author under the name Leslie DuPont. And she has a book. What was it called? Lady of the Manor. Lady of the Manor. She wrote a book called Lady of the Manor. And the theory is that Lady of the Manor, that story is based off of Susan and how she met Dutch and how she fell in love with Dutch.

SPEAKER_00 31:21

Which honestly, I I fully believe that one.

SPEAKER_01 31:25

Yeah, same. And I think even like the main character's name is Susan in that story. I think so, yeah. So that's I've I don't I haven't read all of the books that I'm gonna read, but that one is a good one.

SPEAKER_00 31:39

I think it literally is Susan, and it be her last name begins with a G, too.

SPEAKER_01 31:44

And I think the the man that she's like in love with in the story, I think his initials are DM. Or I DM D D L D V. Yeah, or G L or something. It starts with a D. Yeah. Oh man, we are that last brain cell between the two of us. Yep. Another sweetheart. We love Kylie. She is oh my god, she's amazing.

SPEAKER_00 32:12

She's great.

SPEAKER_01 32:12

Kylie is in a lot of other stuff too, isn't she? Yeah, a lot, but she's been she's been yeah, I know.

SPEAKER_00 32:20

She's been busy since Red Dead was filmed. I think so, yeah. She's doing a lot of I think short films recently, including one with Roger Clark. Yes, Roger's also been doing a lot of that. Damn handy. Yes, that's what it is. She also plays a character in GTA 5. I don't know who it is. I just know she does. But of course, Susan is the mom of the camp, basically. She wasn't madam before the game. She was, yes. And she god, she's so cool. But of course, she used to be in a relationship with Dutch very early on. She joined around yeah, Arthur did. And of course, she's been loyal. That's always been like her main thing, is loyalty. Even after like her and Dutch's relationship ended, of course, she's still in the camp and still with the gang, and she continues up until her last moments, and even in chapter six, she is trying, she's the only one that tries to confront Dutch on what they're doing, and saying that they need to move and keep moving, and Dutch goes off on her and being like, Who are you to judge me? And Susan just stands her ground and continues to be loyal, and says she will be loyal, and she is quite literally until her final breath.

SPEAKER_01 34:00

When she at the very end there, she they have this little stand down with uh Micah, Arthur, and Dutch, and Susan takes Arthur's side. I think she's very loyal to the idea of the gang and their morals for the gang.

SPEAKER_00 34:15

And so when we get up that there's a rat, she's ready to take them down. And well, we see that with Molly. I almost wish she would have just shot Micah. Right.

SPEAKER_01 34:27

I mean, obviously, we want that where we can get our own revenge on Micah, even though we're revenge is a fool's game. But part of me thinks it would have been badass to watch Susan shoot Micah right then and there.

SPEAKER_00 34:41

Technically, Molly was the second rat she killed because we don't know anything about this other guy.

SPEAKER_01 34:50

Yes, they're unnamed member of the gang that we briefly briefly hear about.

SPEAKER_00 34:56

We only get one line about him, and it's with if you choose to play dominoes with Tilly in chapter three, she killed him for course being a rat. And of course, you know, she did the same with Molly, even though she wasn't. And it's just very interesting. I mean, she's such a cool character. I'm like, I can tell you this about literally everybody about doing a deep dive, but there's no way that's happening.

SPEAKER_01 35:25

I would love to do a deep dive on Susan Grimshaw because I feel like she has such a misunderstood yes, very misunderstood backstory and stuff. Because I think she's she comes off as just like this mean old grouch woman, but she's doing what she does because she's been through some shit.

SPEAKER_00 35:46

She's been through some shit and she actually fucking cares about these people. But it's interesting because she is also the only one really that has interactions with all of the women in the gang, really, except for Molly, Sadie, Abigail. Abigail, she has she has one interaction with Abigail, it's in chapter two, they're arguing in John's tent, which doesn't make any sense because they're Abigail isn't living with John until chapter four. But they come out of John's tent, and Susan is telling Abigail basically she needs to go back into being a prostitute. And Abigail's just like, I'm I've got a son, I'm not doing that anymore. And Susan is just like, we all need to sing for our supper. And Abigail's like, I'm not doing that. If you want, I can leave, but you know, that's not something I'm doing. And Susan's just like, I can discuss it with Dutch, and that is basically the conversation. It doesn't really go anywhere, of course. Yeah, but otherwise, she yeah, she's got interactions with Karen and Tilly. Of course, Tilly, her and Tilly have one of the good relationships. Um, she otherwise, she's constantly yelling at Karen for being a drunk or Mary Beth for being into reading. Of course, she does have an interaction with Tilly where she does drag her by the ear. But I guess that also, speaking of conversations, brings us into our next character, Karen Jones, played by Joe Arminox in after Molly's death in chapter six. Karen starts by immediately just yelling at Susan that she's a fucking murderer. And Susan strikes back with she broke the rules.

SPEAKER_01 37:52

She broke the rules, and Karen says she did no such thing, she was in love, and it yeah, very good scene. Such a good scene.

SPEAKER_00 38:01

This fucking screw the girls do such a good job.

SPEAKER_01 38:04

They really do, and we love Karen. We get quite a bit more interaction with Karen because obviously we have the first mission in Valentine with her where we save her from the guy in the hotel, but also we have the bank robbery robbery where we can choose whether um to be a drunken harlot or lost little girl.

SPEAKER_00 38:28

Lost little girl, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 38:30

Yeah, we've learned quite a bit about the old days of the gang with Karen. We learn about her breaking into something dressed as a nun.

SPEAKER_00 38:41

Breaking into a I think it was a uh do we know the location? I don't know. I think it was down, I think it was down in Nevada, I think. It was Tucson, wasn't it? Or was it Tucson? It was Tucson or one of the.

SPEAKER_01 39:02

I know. But no one suspects little sister Karen. Meanwhile, she's got what, like a shotgun and how many guns under her skirt?

SPEAKER_00 39:15

Yeah, impressive. But yeah, she's very much so a scam artist, like Hosea is, and god, I wish they did a mission with Hosea and Karen. Yes, it would have been so good. But of course, Karen is in a relationship with our favorite Irishman, Sean McGuire. By Mick Malampy, yes, our boy. Love him.

SPEAKER_01 39:43

We're in a complicated relationship. We very complicated relationship. We see them fighting and hooking up in Sean's party in Sean's tent.

SPEAKER_00 39:54

Yes, and then of course, there's a theory too of after Sean's death, she of course takes it pretty hard and she starts falling into the bottle. But there's a theory that she's possibly pregnant at that point. I fully believe that theory because like I fully believe it.

SPEAKER_01 40:17

I think if you go into like if you follow them around camp in chapter three, like right before Sean's death, right before you get to that mission while he's still in camp, Sean and Karen get really quiet. They're kind of awkwardly quiet. And I feel like there's a moment. I'm again, I could have like dreamt this or something. I don't know for sure that this happens, but I'm pretty sure there's a moment where you see Sean and Karen talking on the edge of camp or something, but when you go to like listen to them, they like split up and like walk away from each other, so you can't there's like no dialogue or anything, but like they I swear, I I could have dreamt that I don't know. I've been so obsessed with this game. This game has had me in a chokehold for eight years now, so yeah, I could have dreamt that to be honest, but I I do swear that they get really quiet before Sean's death, they both start acting kind of off, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 41:13

Um of course, yeah, that brings us into Sean McGuire, of course, like we said, played by Mick Malampi. He is absolutely a hu hoot. Like meeting him in Deadwood was absolutely amazing.

SPEAKER_01 41:28

Love listening to him seeing Ray Whiskey.

SPEAKER_00 41:31

Yes, Sean. He's always singing by the same guy around camp is so good.

SPEAKER_01 41:37

And Sean, it's like I adore Sean because I feel like he keeps the vibes up in the camp. Like the atmosphere in the camp before he dies, it's like after he dies, it just shifts. Like he keeps things very lighthearted. But I think in real life, if we were in this gang and we saw Sean Maguire coming anywhere near us, we'd fucking run. Because like he bullies the shit out of everyone, like no one is safe. If you're in that camp, you're getting bullied, yep, or harassed in some capacity, unless you're one of the girls, then he's asking you to marry him.

SPEAKER_00 42:14

Yep, yeah, it's great. But of course, he joined the gang in when the gang was in North Elizabeth, and he tried to rob Dutch and Hosea because he spotted this big fancy pocket watch that Dutch had. And when he tried to rob him, of course, he tried to shoot him, but he couldn't because his bullets and his money was gone, and he cried. And uh Jose and Dutch, of course, took him in and gave him food and brought him into the gang. And he's been, yeah, he's been you're just the cocky little stereotypical Irishman. Sean's fun.

SPEAKER_01 43:03

I wish we had more interactions with Sean. I mean, we do get quite a bit of like hidden dialogue with Sean, and we do have the uh home robbery and the stagecoach robbery, which are optional missions, but definitely worth playing. I always play those ones, yes, and then we find out that Lenny has been trying to teach Sean how to read. That's not going well. No, Sean tells him to give it up, it's a lost cause.

SPEAKER_00 43:26

Yep, and then he also has a very wholesome interaction with Jack in chapter three. He finds a I think it's also available in chapter two, but I've only had it in chapter three. But he comes across a white rabbit with Jack, and it's dead. And of course, white rabbits, like it's kind of symbolic. It's well, when they're alive, they mean kind of good things, basically, are kind of meant to come in white rabbits. Not and prosperity, abundance, whatever.

SPEAKER_01 44:04

Of course, it's dead. So kind of some foreshadowing there, I guess. Yeah. Definitely some foreshadowing. Easy to miss, but yeah. It's also kind of a whole wholesome moment, though. Yeah. Even though the rabbit's dead. It's just kind of cute hearing Sean telling Jack about it. Because you wouldn't picture Sean to like have such a wholesome conversation with a four-year-old.

SPEAKER_00 44:28

No, but at this at the same time, it is like, okay, how would he be with like if Karen was pregnant?

SPEAKER_01 44:36

See, I feel like Sean would have been like ecstatic if he found out that he was gonna have a kid because Sean loves Sean more than anyone else. No one loves Sean more than Sean. And so I think if he would have been having a kid, he would have been thrilled if there was a little little Sean Jr., he would have been so excited. So I don't know. From the next character. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 45:01

Bill Williamson, played by Steve Palmer. He was discharged. He joined the gang in I think end of 92, beginning of 93. He was discharged from the army in December of 92. Dishonorably. Dishonorably, yes. And he ended up turning to drinking, and of course, trying to intimidate people, which didn't really work. And Dutch was a Dutch, Dutch saved him when Bill was at a really low point. And of course, Dutch took him in under his wing, like he does with mostly everybody, and dropped him into the gang, and he's been there ever since. He's been one of the main sharpshooters, I guess. One of the main main gunmen. But he's loyal as hell, he's tough, and of course, he's also one of the ones that we go after in Red Dead One, and he's the first one that we actually get a proper scene with in with John at Fort Mercer. He implores you implores, and he's just yeah, Steve's also such a delight. Yes. I mean, again, everyone on this cast is yeah, we'll probably never shut up about how awesome they are. They're all no, we never will. I guess, yeah. Speaking of people, we also go after in Red Dead 1, that brings us to Javier Suela, played by Gabriel Slawyer in Red Dead 2, and Antonio. I'm gonna butcher this last name. Jarmilo. Jermilo, you're doing great, sweetie. I thought who plays him, of course, in Red Dead 1. But in Red Dead 2, he has the best gang introduction ever. I want to see it. The best that was my favorite. Yeah, it's I need to see it. I know he met Dutch when they were both stealing chickens, of all things. It's such a great visual. But he was a notorious bounty hunter and Mexican revolutionary in Mexico, and he was forced to flee um his homeland after he killed a like a high-ranking leader over there over a woman, and he fled to the US, and of course, Dutch found him at his lowest stealing chickens and brought him in. And this would have been 95 technically, which is odd because he is also one of the ones that is rumored to be Jack's father, and we will thousand percent do a theory episode on that. Yes, we will. I don't know, because it's like, yes, he's pointing his gun up in the air, but it wasn't scripted that way. That was improv that Gabriel fought for during production. That's stuck, which it is cool, it is very cool that it's stuck. And but I'm like thinking about it more and more, and I'm like, I don't know if he would have turned that easily. I feel like he could have, like, with a bunch of persuasion, but compared to like how easy like Bill would turn, I feel like it would be more of a challenge.

SPEAKER_01 49:16

Well, Haver talks about how he was saved by Dutch, and he feels like he owes Dutch his life, so he's like completely unwaveringly loyal to Dutch, and which is interesting that he's not with Dutch in Red Dead One, yeah. Instead, he's with Bill, and he's he's not with Dutch in the epilogue either. So it's like what happened between Dutch and Javier between chapter six and the epilogue, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 49:42

And it's interesting because we never hear anything about Bill or Javier like in the epilogue. There's not a newspaper article or anything. It's like we hear about Seth and like Nigel West Dickens in one of the newspaper articles in the epilogue. Same with like well, of course, we see Dodge in the epilogue, but he's also rumored to have died in like a fire or something. But I don't know, he's he's a character, he's fun. Interesting.

SPEAKER_01 50:14

Is he also Mishcar? And you have them where you go to the freak's house where they don't speak, they speak their own language. Yeah, Shes Porter.

SPEAKER_00 50:25

You get that in chapter two. One of the first things. Um, he also takes you fishing in chapter three, which is where him you can have a conversation with him as Arthur talking about Coleman Dutch and how they used to like swap scores with each other, and gives us a little bit more intel on kind of their relationship. But anyway, moving right along, our next character, Lenny Summers, played by Heron Alexander. He is the youngest gang member, only at 19. He uh he's one of the also fairly new gang members as well. But he's a bookworm, he's always quick on his feet, always ready to jump into action, jump on his horse, do whatever needs doing. He also has a very interesting like background and backstory.

SPEAKER_01 51:25

Yes, his camp dialogue that you get in chapter three, where he's talking. You might be able to get in chapter two as well. Yeah, entirely sure. He's talking about that his father was a slave, and he was one of like the he was getting special treatment though, and he ended up killing the slave owner or the plantation owner, or whatever it was. He killed the master, and his brother gave his father, the the master's brother gave Lenny's father a pocket watch, and he says he's gonna he lost the pocket watch playing Blackwater, and he wants to get another one in his honor, and that entire scene, it's like the entire camp is just silent, and it's so deep, it's such a good moment.

SPEAKER_00 52:14

It's a very good moment, and um, and then of course he has one of the most overlooked deaths in Red Dead 2. I mean, it's the only death without a cutscene.

SPEAKER_01 52:29

I still to this day try to save him. I know I can't, but I try. It makes me so mad. I'm like, I want to save Lenny so bad.

SPEAKER_00 52:38

Yeah, it's a very quick and unfortunate death. But well, I don't want to say brings us into our next character, but Abigail Roberts. She's played by Kelly Elizabeth Moore, and so I'm gonna butcher this last name again. Sophia Marzogi. I could totally be wrong though. Sophia played her in Red Dead 1 and I think a little bit in Red Dead 2. I'm not a hundred percent sure.

SPEAKER_01 53:11

Are you sure she said that she did like the I think she did the motion, like the motion? She did the phone cap, yeah. And Callie did the voice of Abigail in Red Dead 2. She was saying that they weren't happy with her voice anymore for a younger Abigail in Red Dead 2 or something like that.

SPEAKER_00 53:31

Yeah, we also we met Sophia in Deadwood. Um, she absolutely amazing. Love her.

SPEAKER_01 53:37

Sweet, and like of all the casts that signed my guidebook, everyone's like signing with like quotes from the game and stuff. And Sophia just wrote, I love your outfit, it's so cute.

SPEAKER_00 53:49

Yeah, she's she's great, but of course, she's Abigail's the only mother in the gang to Jack, and she got she grew up in a brothel playing piano and working, and she, of course, was brought into the gang by Uncle, did her work around camp. She soon fell pregnant with Jack, and she's been well very determined ever since to try and kind of give her son the best life that she can within the gang, which well, she tries her best. Yeah, we as much as possible.

SPEAKER_01 54:33

I think it's interesting that we get a moment where Abigail is trying to get Jack to pay attention so Hosea can teach Jack how to read. And Jack says, I don't want to learn how to read.

SPEAKER_00 54:44

Yeah, I want to be a gunslinger when I grow up. And Abigail's like over my dead body, and that yeah, leads us into who's played by three different actors. Marissa Bushanti plays four-year-old Jack, so chapters one through six, and then Ted Sutherland is who plays him in the epilogue, and then Josh Bailock is who played Jack in Red Dead Redemption 1. And starting, I guess we'll just start with the epilogue, as Jack after the very unnecessary death of uh his father, he goes after Ross and he kills him in one or it's not like he said the epilogue, but I oh maybe I did Red Dead Redemption 1's epilogue anyway. But he goes after Ross, who of course killed John in Red Dead Redemption 1. Very unfortunate, very, very unnecessary, and kills him and becomes well a gunslinger over, of course, his mom's grave, and because you don't pick up with Jack until 1914, and he's standing over Abigail and John's grave, and it's a very small detail.

SPEAKER_01 56:10

Does Josh Balak play Jack in the entirety of Red Dead Redemption 1, or just as 16-year-old Jack and adult?

SPEAKER_00 56:19

Yeah, the entirety of Red Dead one. So a 16-year-old and in the eight and 18-year-old and 14.

SPEAKER_01 56:27

Wow.

unknown 56:28

Okay.

SPEAKER_00 56:29

But curious. Right. But yeah, he there's a whole bunch of theories out there. A lot of people are saying that it would be cool for Red Dead 3 to play as Jack in like World War One and stuff. But that's getting away from that's getting away from the Western. Yeah. It doesn't make any sense. And I'm sorry. The likelihood one Jack working for the army after he killed a government official. Also, uh tell us about the uh theory about the book in oh in GTA Online in Franklin's Mansion. Once you move up to the Vinewood Hills, you can find a book in the bookshelf called Red Dead by Jay Marston, which a lot of people are thinking that it's of course written by Jack. And there's also a theory that is Red Dead Redemption 2 and Red Dead Redemption 1 is the story just written from Jack.

SPEAKER_01 57:37

I mean, not necessarily his perspective, obviously, but it could just be a totally fictional story written by a man named Jack Marston in the GTA world. Very cool. Yes.

SPEAKER_00 57:48

All right, moving on to Charles Smith, played by No Shir Dalal. He's been in the gang for about I think six months at that point. And he's very quiet, reserved, but he is a beast.

SPEAKER_01 58:05

Both Charles and Noshir.

SPEAKER_00 58:07

Yeah. The amount of things No Shir has been in since Red Dead Redemption 2, even before.

SPEAKER_01 58:14

I swear, every game I play. I'm I every time I play a different game, I'm always asking you, I'm like, is this Noshir? And all the time it's yes.

SPEAKER_00 58:22

Yep. I'm like, I play a game and I'm like, I wonder when it's not even, oh, I wonder if No Shir's in it. It's I wonder when when he's gonna be in it. Because he's bound to be in it. He is. But anyway, he grew up with he was born to a Native American mother and an African American father. He spent his entire life like on the run. And eventually, um, like he's always been running solo, he's never felt like he's belonged anywhere, and eventually he fell into the gang and fell in with Dutch because he liked the gang's like beliefs and ideals at that point, and he's just a overall like excellent like craftsman through hunting and like using everything to his advantage. He knows how to fight extremely well. He's honestly like an expert in everything, but he he's such a he's a beast. And in the epilogue, we find him as John in Sandini throwing fights for just a few bucks. And we find out through Charles that Strauss ended up getting taken by Pinkertons and he died in custody.

SPEAKER_01 59:50

Strauss didn't say a word, and we go on to we find out that Charles actually goes back for Arthur and Susan at the end of after chapter six. He goes back for him. The end of chapter six, he stays in Whipete after Eagle Flies passes away. So we don't really see him again until the epilogue, but he tells John that he went back and buried Arthur and Susan. And if he went back by himself and buried Arthur and Susan all on his own, I mean he went so far with both of their bodies, so far, plus especially Arthur. He took Arthur halfway across the map. I mean, not really, but like he he took him pretty far. And Arthur's grape is like all rock, pure rock, and it had to have been in winter at that point.

SPEAKER_00 1:00:40

So trying to do that alone in winter, let alone the state that their bodies were in. Like I don't want to think about it.

SPEAKER_01 1:00:53

Yeah, yeah, it's and then at the end he helps John and Sadie go after Micah, and Charles talks about wanting to move on and start a family. So that's pretty much all of the ending that we get for Charles Smith. Hope he lived his happily ever after. I hope he started his family. Yes. In this fictional world, right?

SPEAKER_00 1:01:19

Our next character, our camp dad, Hosea Matthews, played by, of course, the amazing Curzon Dobel. He Curzon's insane. Which was crazy, wild. But of course, he's a con man, and him and Dutch met in 1877, and they met on a fireside on the road to Chicago, and they made their way to Kettering, Ohio, and robbed some people saying that they were in a real estate scam. And it's a very funny newspaper article that you can find in his room. In I think you can only find it in chapter four. Otherwise, and of course his books. He's also a big bookworm. But he talks a lot about his past. He's also a great hunter. He grew up in the mountains in like Appalachian territory. So he's known how to hunt. He has so many just good life stories. And I could listen to that man talk for hours. Right. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 1:03:03

One of my favorite moments in Deadwood was when you and I were sitting on that bench the morning of the signing, and Curzon walked out and told us good morning. And I was like, Oh, Hosea told us good morning. That's okay.

SPEAKER_00 1:03:16

Best part ever. But yeah, he's great. I love him in the game, I love him in person. And of course, he's the only thing that is really holding Dutch together. Oh, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 1:03:28

After once we lose Hosea, we also lose Dutch.

SPEAKER_00 1:03:32

Yeah. His heartbreaking death in chapter four is absolutely horrible. And at the same time, and it's very interesting because in Blackwater, we hear about of course, Hosea and Arthur had their own job that they were gonna carry out, and everyone else was going to do like the fairy job. Of course, that didn't work. So Hosea Dutch didn't exactly like Hosea was excited about his job, but he was nervous about the fairy. And we he's been, of course, Dutch's right-hand man, so like he knows the man better than anybody. But it's very interesting because in chapter four, Josea is the one that is excited about the bank robbery, and Dutch is the one that is nervous.

SPEAKER_01 1:04:26

Yeah, it's quite a role reversal there. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 1:04:37

Well, because he he says in that cutscene is like worrying, spend my job all these years. Yeah, I think is the line, or like something like that. But yeah, anyway, brings us to that brings us to Sadie Adler, played by Alex McKenna. Yes, our widow that we save from Coulter during chapter one, of course. And her character arc is something else. Of course, Sadie is a wild card. Sadie Adler. She's of course the widow that we save from Coulter in chapter one, and she's just a spitfire chapter. Of course, one and two, she's mourning the loss of her husband Jake, who we also get to see both of them alive and well in God Dead Online.

SPEAKER_01 1:05:31

Yeah, worth saying if you have not, it's worth just going in there to see Sadie and Jake and meeting Jake, seeing who he was.

SPEAKER_00 1:05:40

Yes. Very cool to see that. I wish they had that at launch instead of having it come out a few years later, but whatever, I guess. But yeah, Sadie, she goes from the widow to an absolute unity. It again, yes, just going after Odra Skulls, just completely hellbent on a revenge because she lost basically everything to the Odre Skulls, even though Mega was the one that burnt down the house, right?

SPEAKER_01 1:06:17

Because knocked over that lantern, and then we see in the epilogue with John, and she's now a bounty hunter, and at the end she does go her own way, like Charles does, and we don't really know where she ends up, but she says she's gonna head south.

SPEAKER_00 1:06:35

Yeah, I think she was gonna head south in South America and start like a gold mining thing or something like that.

SPEAKER_01 1:06:44

Alright, moving on to Micah Bell, played by Peter Blomquist. Love Peter, love Peter, he's his Instagram is unhinged, yep, in the best way. He's in a realm of his own.

SPEAKER_00 1:06:58

He is Peter's awesome. Peter's great. He also plays. Um, if you've played LA Noir, he's Dr. Fontaine, which is fun.

SPEAKER_01 1:07:09

That is fun. I've never played it, but it's fun. Yes.

SPEAKER_00 1:07:12

Yeah, I mean, of course, Rockstar does that a lot with a lot of their actors, especially I feel like ever since like GTA V and the first Red Dead and stuff has kind of come out. Because it's like I know Ned has talked about like him having like a cameo in Red Dead, but it got cut or something. But yeah, anyway, Micah, of course. Micah. Our main antagonist. The rat. The rat. He's a character. That's putting it nicely. Yeah. He's joined the gang about five, six months ago.

SPEAKER_01 1:07:54

Prior to 1899.

SPEAKER_00 1:07:55

Or before the before Blackwater.

SPEAKER_01 1:07:59

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 1:08:00

So he's been there for about five months now. Yeah, that sounds about right. But interesting, he didn't get saved by Dutch. He saved he himself saved Dutch in Crunchaw Hills. Dutch had like robbed had some gold on him that he ended up robbing someone for and was getting into a bar fight, as one does. And Micah saved him, which I don't really know if I believe.

SPEAKER_01 1:08:31

I think if Micah's telling the story, he's trying to paint himself as the hero.

SPEAKER_00 1:08:36

Yeah, because he's the only one that says it. No one else says it that he saved him. It's like Dutch doesn't even say it, but Dutch does like acknowledge that Swanson one time saved him. I'm not sure of the conversation, but it's another like hidden dialogue that there is. But anyway, Micah, we all hate him, of course. We'd love to hate him.

SPEAKER_01 1:09:07

Um we love Peter, but we hate Micah.

SPEAKER_00 1:09:09

Yes. And he's technically Micah Bell the Third, because his father and his grandfather are also both Micah Bell. So a giant ego trip for this entire family. God. So as a brother by the name of Amos, you can find a letter from him in the back of Shady Bell at that old shack. He's living in California with his wife and kids. And of course, Micah absolutely despises that. And he's, I mean, I just to give the man a little credit, he is a pretty good shot. Sometimes. Unfortunately. But yeah, of course, he's the rat. He's one Dutch's ear in Blackwater. He's the one that spurred Dutch on to kill Heidi McCourt on that ferry. No shocker there. Nope.

SPEAKER_01 1:10:13

And he is very much adamant that there are too many mouths to feed in this gang, and he wants to thin the herd. Yep. In a gang that he's been with for six months.

SPEAKER_00 1:10:23

Yep. And he climbs that social ladder very fast, unfortunately.

SPEAKER_01 1:10:30

And I think that just speaks to Dutch's impulsiveness.

SPEAKER_00 1:10:34

Yes. And yeah, that'll definitely be something like we get into when we do like our mica and even our Dutch. Well, yeah, our mica and then our Dutch Deep Dive. Because both of them are definitely getting one.

SPEAKER_01 1:10:49

You want to use that to lead into Dutch Vanderland?

SPEAKER_00 1:10:53

Yeah, I guess the man himself, Dutch Vanderland, played by, of course, Benjamin Bryan Davis. He also plays he also plays Nastas in Red Dead Redemption 1 because originally he was supposed Nastas was supposed to be played by a different actor, but because Ben is tall as hell, he was supposed to just originally be like the body double for Nastas. And he just ended up taking taking it on like any normal role. And didn't he originally audition to play someone else too? Yes, he originally auditioned to be Drew McFarlane in Red Dead One. And they were like, I think we got something better. And then Dutch was born. But of course, you know, he's the leader of the gang and my favorite character. Yep. Go tell us about your tattoo. He was quite literally one of my mate. Well, of course, I wanted to go to Deadwood anyway, but I had this I idea for years since the game came out. I was like, I want to get a tattoo of one of the lines from the game, and I was thinking about just like what lines are good for the game that are recognizable for the game, but also are just generally good like quotes. And there's a lot of them, but of course, as the game was getting pop more popular, I mean was all immediately, but more and more people kept getting like a bunch of like the classic Arthur Lyons tattooed, and you know, don't leave love aside, it's all we got. That's what I ended up going with. He says it funnily enough in the mission he kills Bronte in. But it's one of my favorite Dutch lines because one this mission, he well, he's already kind of a little bit more than a little bit fucked up at this point. But I feel like that's really the last time that we see the old Dutch, so to speak, actually kind of come out. I mean, aside from when he's talking about Hosea after they get back from Guarma. But of course, he's the charismatic leader, well dressed, well read, loves Evelyn Miller. He's supposed to have a silver tongue. He does not. At least not with the ladies. No, least of all with the ladies. But he left home at 14 in Philadelphia, and just yeah, started going on his own. And he formed the gang because he wanted like basically he to like have people see the world in his own, like, like-minded way and his descent from the beginning of the game in chapter one. It starts as a decently slow decline, but then once we get to chapter four, everything just speeds up and it gets intense. And like I said, we will get into that into our deep dive.

SPEAKER_01 1:14:30

And I think it's worth mentioning that the gang was originally trying to help people take money they were robbing from the rich and giving to the poor. And at one point it's mentioned that Arthur had robbed like a poor farmer, and Dutch yelled at him for it, saying that that's going against everything they stand for.

SPEAKER_00 1:14:52

Yes, that is a very good point. I didn't entirely yeah, forget about that. But yeah, because they and of course, by the time that we get into even a Ride Dead 2, it had been quite a while since like they had had actually helped anyone themselves. He's he's he's a bag of worms, he's such a complex character, and yeah, that's quite literally why he is my favorite, is just because of how rich the there is ultimately no understanding the man.

SPEAKER_01 1:15:29

No, he's a very complex character, and that deep dive that we will do on Dutch is gonna be a long one.

SPEAKER_00 1:15:38

It's probably gonna be a two-parter, and those two parts are probably gonna be decently long.

SPEAKER_01 1:15:43

Yes, I feel like that's gonna be that'll be a fun one.

SPEAKER_00 1:15:47

Probably the the deepest deep dive there is, yeah. And it's like even then, we're not gonna get anywhere. No, unfortunately, it's like spoiler alert, we're not gonna figure them out. No, I've been trying for eight years and still haven't. I guess that leads us into yeah, your guy.

SPEAKER_01 1:16:05

Go for it. John Marson, played by Rob Weedoff, which I want to mention before we get into John, that Rob has been working very hard with Gym Buddies Monday through Friday, 7 45 a.m. Eastern Time, where he is raising money for no kid hungry. So go check it out if you haven't. He's doing great work.

SPEAKER_00 1:16:27

Yes, he goes live on YouTube. He's done, he's raised so much money. He's done such an amazing job with us.

SPEAKER_01 1:16:37

He has definitely worth talking about, definitely worth looking into. Yes. So John Marston, in 1885, Dutch saved a boy from a lynching at the hands of some homesteaders who'd caught him stealing in Illinois. That boy turned out to be 12-year-old John Marston, a bad kid who'd started robbing and killing at a young age. His mother, a prostitute, had died in childbirth, and his father had been blinded in a bar fight and died in 1881 when John was eight years old. Marston spent the next few years in an orphanage before running away to make his own luck in the streets. Shrewd, fearless, and strong-willed, he and Arthur are Dutch's proudest proteges. Dutch's pet. As Bill Williamson calls it. Yes.

SPEAKER_00 1:17:19

Love that interaction.

SPEAKER_01 1:17:20

I know the drunk John and Bill scene is one of my favorites. Not just because of my obsession with John Marston.

SPEAKER_00 1:17:29

It's just so good. There's also another good drunk John scene with him and Javier, where he is just he's just bithing about Abigail just constantly nagging, which it's what she does. He's just complaining about Abigail, and then Abigail like tries to call after him, and then he just takes the whole bottle of whiskey with him. It's like there's also gonna be a moment.

SPEAKER_01 1:18:02

There's also that other drunk John moment, and I think it's right in there somewhere too, where John tries to pull Karen into his lap.

SPEAKER_00 1:18:10

Yes, yeah, that's an encounter. I think in both chapter two and three, you can have.

SPEAKER_01 1:18:16

I've never gotten it in chapter one, but I've gotten it in chapter or in chapter three. I haven't gotten in chapter two, but I've gotten it in chapter three. And he pulls Karen into his lap and she tells him he's acting like an idiot. And or he's being an idiot, and he turns to Javier and he says, Am I being an idiot? Or no, he says it's to Arthur. He says it's to Arthur. John turns to Arthur and says, Am I being an idiot? And Arthur says yes.

SPEAKER_00 1:18:40

Yeah, and of course he has a very of course he left for a year after Jack was born, or shortly after Jack was born, and when he came back. He still hasn't let it go five years later. Because I mean, as I guess segue getting into Arthur Morgan, our protagonist, played by the amazing Roger Clark.

SPEAKER_01 1:19:06

Who has also done a lot since Red Dead Redemption. Yes.

SPEAKER_00 1:19:09

He with I guess specifically continuing off of the John stuff, he had a kid, Isaac, and his mother, Isaac's mother was a waitress that he met, and she was just a kid too. She was 19. And soon, like after like he found out about Isaac, he would stop by like every couple of months and pay him a visit. And then one one day he got outside there are two crosses and he knew. But originally, I think this is the most heartbreaking cut content, and also the one that would have changed the entire game. Isaac originally was supposed to die in Coulter because if you look in the cabin that Arthur, Dutch, and Hosea are staying in, in Dutch's room, there is a bassinet in there, and yeah, it was originally supposed to have Isaac die in Coulter, and then it would have been a much it would have been a much darker version of Arthur, I think.

SPEAKER_01 1:20:23

Oh yeah, that would have been an entirely different game.

SPEAKER_00 1:20:28

Because I feel like it would have left like less agency up to the player on whether he would be like more dishonorable versus honorable. But it's like, of course, the way that they did it, it got scrapped very early on. But with the way that they did it, that it's it's sad that it's only mentioned once, but I feel like it it does work because Arthur, he of course, is the start of the gang, along with Susan. He's known the life of an outlaw for basically his entire life. His mother, Beatrice, died pretty young. Well, when he was pretty young, and then his father, Lyle, got arrested and hanged for larceny and hanged for larceny, which was just theft. I think it was in 73 when he got hanged. Don't quote me on that. It is it's either 73 or 74. Yeah, it's like yeah, one of those. And then he fell in with the Dutch at the age of 14 in 1877, or 1877 or 78, and Dutch took him in, taught him how to read, just like he did with John. But I guess not Abigail.

SPEAKER_01 1:21:53

Yeah, no.

SPEAKER_00 1:21:54

You think someone would have taught Abigail to read?

SPEAKER_01 1:21:56

Yeah, between Dutch and Hosea and Jack, you'd think somewhere along the lines she would have learned.

SPEAKER_00 1:22:01

That's just it considering that Abigail has this encounter with Hosea, with her being like, You've been such a father figure to me. It's like, okay, you've been a father figure to her, but you're not gonna teach her how to read. Right. And isn't there a moment where she's sitting there with a book? Yeah, she'll be sitting like out outside her camp, outside her and Jack's tent with a book. Maybe it's a picture book. Arthur also apparently was like uh just I mean, a rambunctious sort of like delinquent sort of kid. And now he's kind of like the main enforcer and like the workhorse of the gang. And I mean, he's got multiple different deaths, depending on what you choose as an ending and what your honor level is. If you help John, which is canon, yeah, you will end up if you have high honor, you will just die on the cliff edge. And if you have low honor, like I did my first time I played through, Micah will shoot you in the face. Otherwise, if you go for the money, if you go back to Beaver Hollow, back into the cave and find the chest, as you're leaving Beaver Hollow, Micah will tackle you and you'll get into a knife fight with him. I will say I love that fighting sequence. It is very good. Being in Beaver Hollow when it's surrounded by fire is something else.

SPEAKER_01 1:23:44

Yeah. High or low honor, people usually tend to help John, but it is worth going back for the money just to see that cutscene, just to see Beaver Hollow on fire.

SPEAKER_00 1:23:55

And if you have high honor, you will cut Micah's eye, and it will remain like, and then when you go back in the epilogue, he will have that scar over his eye. So he'll be blinded. I think it's his left eye.

SPEAKER_01 1:24:12

And that's if you go back for the money as low honor, Arthur. High honor. High honor, okay.

SPEAKER_00 1:24:18

Yeah, and he'll die the same way just looking at the sunrise.

SPEAKER_01 1:24:24

Oh, yeah, I do remember that.

SPEAKER_00 1:24:26

And if you have low honor, otherwise, that death is slow, yes, because Micah will just plunge a knife into Arthur's chest, and it is also one that is like very like drawn out.

SPEAKER_01 1:24:43

Anyway, and we will be doing deep dives on most of these characters, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 1:24:49

Definitely not all, because that would be so much work. I mean, you never know.

SPEAKER_01 1:24:55

If people want them, if there's people want them, I mean, I know everyone's gonna want Arthur, Dutch, John, Sadie, Micah, deep dives, but if there's like people that really want to hear a deep dive on Uncle, who are we to deny that?

SPEAKER_00 1:25:10

Yeah, that's just uh yeah, if we were yeah, doing some of these some of these deep divers are gonna be really fun. I'm excited to record a lot of them.

SPEAKER_01 1:25:21

And I think it's just really cool how like we are nearly two hours into recording this, and we've just barely scratched the sur surface on these characters, like these conversations that we're having. Like, the reason why we're even doing this podcast is because like this is what we've been doing for the last two years, you and I. Quite literally every single night, almost on a daily basis, talking about these characters in depth and our fan theories and obviously our fan fiction, but we're not gonna talk about that here, even though that has already been requested by some yep. I don't want to say a miracle, but for some reason that's been requested.

SPEAKER_00 1:26:02

It it's not a miracle, you know who you are.

SPEAKER_01 1:26:05

We know who you are. I love that though. I yes, I do want to say again before we close this out, thank you so much for listening. Thank you for your support. I thank you so much for your support for listening, for listening to us butcher these poor actors' names. We are so sorry. Thank you for listening to us geek out over our favorite game. Thank you for giving us this opportunity. Yes, it is so fun. I am so excited for what's to come. Yes, and we have some pretty good episodes planned already. I cannot wait to film them. Yes. We will see you next Thursday at 3 a.m. Eastern Time. And that's it for us today, partner. Thank you so much for spending some time with us here at the Outlaw Haven. It really means a lot to us. So if you like what you heard, make sure you follow or subscribe wherever you're listening so you don't miss what's coming next. I'm Sam. I'm Za. And this is the Outlaw Haven.