Wanted: Jesse James

Welcome to The Outlaw Haven podcast! In this episode we talk about one of the most infamous outlaws, Jesse Woodson James. And one of the movies that is directly refrenced in Red Dead Redemption 2, The Assassination of Jesse James by the Coward Robert Ford (2007)

Transcript

SPEAKER_00 0:00

Welcome back, Outlaws. They say every legend needs a beginning and every beginning needs an end. Tonight we ride with the most famous outlaw who ever lived, a Missouri farm boy who helped pull off the first daylight bank robbery in American history, spending years on the run, only to be killed by one of his gang in his own living room. We're taking it all the way. From the first job in 1866 to the job that went wrong in Northfield, from the ashes of the old gang to the desperate men of the new one, the rise, the fall, and the dirty business in between. Grab a drink and get comfortable. I'm Sam. I'm Zy. And this is the Outlaw Haven. Alright, teach me about Jesse James, teacher. Teach me.

SPEAKER_01 0:41

Alright, let's go. Let's go. So today, of course, uh.

SPEAKER_00 0:50

At least we have energy today. Last time we tried to was not happening. We were dead.

SPEAKER_01 0:56

So bad. So today we're gonna be talking about Jesse James. He is, of course, one of the many outlaws that helped influence Red Dead Redemption 2, and one of the more influential movies um in Red Dead as it has a scene that is basically shot for shot from it.

SPEAKER_00 1:14

Arguably the best scene. Yeah. Of the movie and the game.

SPEAKER_01 1:19

Yeah.

unknown 1:20

Definitely.

SPEAKER_00 1:21

Next to the Braithwaite Manor scene. Yes.

SPEAKER_01 1:24

Between that and Braithwaite Manor, two best scenes in the game. That movie, of course, is The Assassination of Jesse James by the coward Robert Ford, which was released in 07. Um it's a movie directed by Andrew Dominic, but I didn't know this. It's also a book uh based off of the same exact name, which is why it didn't change at all, written by Ron Hansen and released in 1983.

SPEAKER_00 1:53

Which I definitely tried to read. But I I didn't. I got like one chapter in, and I was just like, I can't read this anymore. I wish I I I'll have to try and go back into it. And if if I do finish the book, I will update whatever episode we're filming at the time. Unfortunately, I did not do that before we started recording this. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 2:19

Yeah, for real. I've been just yeah, I mean, I'm not a book person, you know that.

SPEAKER_00 2:25

I know you're not.

SPEAKER_01 2:26

But even I was like thinking about looking listening to the audiobook and I found it on YouTube and I just never did.

SPEAKER_00 2:34

Life has just been laughing a little too hard.

SPEAKER_01 2:36

It really has. Um, okay. I guess yeah, get right into it, as you say. As I say. Let's get right into it. So, born September 5th, 1847, to Zerelda and Robert Jane James. They were hemp farmers who owned six slaves in Clay County, Missouri. And they kind they ended up having quite a decently large family. Um, I don't know why I don't have any of that written down. Way to go me.

SPEAKER_00 3:11

They have like ten kids or some shit. Uh, let me look.

SPEAKER_01 3:17

I say as I wasn't like adding more to this like two hours ago. It's fine.

SPEAKER_00 3:26

I'm pretty sure they had a shitload of kids. Yeah. But I might have taken that out of context of something else. I could be wrong. They had four children. Four children, okay. Yeah, four or ten. What's the difference?

SPEAKER_01 3:44

Yeah, who cares? I mean, technically three, because one died shortly after childbirth, but who cares? He's counting. Damn! Um, yeah, of course they had the infamous brothers Frank and Jesse James, and then uh Robert Jr., who's the one that died after childbirth.

SPEAKER_00 4:06

Um and then it was it was in the namesake one too.

SPEAKER_01 4:10

Yeah. Right. I mean, his father did die in the Civil War, so after Damn.

SPEAKER_00 4:28

Anyway, anyway.

SPEAKER_01 4:31

Um yeah, his uh father got, of course, dropped into the Civil War and he ended up dying. And after that, his mother remarried two more times and remarried for her first remarriage was to a man named Ben Benjamin Simmons. He was a dick. Um, who's wealthy?

SPEAKER_00 4:54

Why was he a dick? But just because he's wealthy?

SPEAKER_01 4:57

He moved in, they moved into a house, but um he was like, No, you can't bring any of your children fucking with you.

SPEAKER_00 5:06

Uh okay, bye.

SPEAKER_01 5:08

Yeah. So she left like shortly after a year, I think. Um then I think he ended up dying like shortly after due to like I think a horse-related incident. I'm not 100%.

SPEAKER_00 5:27

The horse knew.

SPEAKER_01 5:28

The horse knew. Yes. Um, but then after that, she married a doctor, uh, Ruben Samuel. And she ended up having more children with him. And it's interesting because he actually ended up signing a prenup. And for the time, very unheard of. Especially f well, for men.

SPEAKER_00 5:54

Oh yeah, this is the part where he signed the prenup and like the property went to her when he died. Mm-hmm.

SPEAKER_01 6:01

Yeah. Um Yeah, anyway, back to the kind of the Civil War stuff. Um that's kind of basically it for the marriage shit.

SPEAKER_00 6:15

Are we not are we not gonna include the the incest?

SPEAKER_01 6:18

Oh, we'll get to it because Oh uh that's later. That's oh that's later. Okay, cool. I have I've got it. Jesse's brother Frank James, he joined a group of raiders called the Quantrale Raiders, I think is how we pronounce it. Umtrel, something like that. I should probably look that up, but it's fine. Um They are a group or were a group of uh pro-confederate bushwhackers, and they led multiple massacres, and one of the most infamous ones was on August 21st, 1863, where Quantarell led a massacre in Kansas, where his men, including, of course, Frank James, tore through Lawrence, Kansas, and they ended up robbing two banks and set most of the town on fire. They also killed between Reddit. Right. And they also killed between 150 to 180 men and boys, most of them were unarmed. This Yeah. This attack was also um Jesse was rumored to be in it. It's unconfirmed, but Jesse has bragged about it, but also I'm like, it's Jesse James. So how legitimate is that?

SPEAKER_00 7:49

So is this group similar to like Lemoyne Raiders?

SPEAKER_01 7:52

Yeah, I I I would say so. I mean, considering it's the South and it's a bunch of just people kind of going out and um fighting and whatnot, and all fucking assholes.

SPEAKER_00 8:10

Sounds about right.

SPEAKER_01 8:11

But later that year, a group of union soldiers invaded Jesse's um mot mother's and stepfather's house and looking for um information about Quantrell's camp and Jesse was horse whipped and when he refused to give the union unions um any answers to it. His mother was roughed up as well, and his stepfather he was hung repeatedly from a tree. He survived somehow. Holy shit. Repeatedly? Repeatedly he was like hanged and beaten from a tree. And yeah, he survived, um, but he never was the same after that. Under fucking standably.

SPEAKER_00 9:05

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 9:06

Um Also understandably, you know, this is what caused Jesse's fucking hatred for the union. Yeah. Can't exactly blame him on that. No.

unknown 9:21

Um.

SPEAKER_01 9:22

But in the following year, in 1864, when Jesse was 16, he kind of left um that group and ended up joining forces with William Bloody Bill motherfucking Anderson. And so did Frank. And his Of course, Bloody Bill, he's one of the most kind of infamous um guerrilla leaders. And just well, when it comes to Western stuff too, in general. Of course, the James brothers were together with that, and this is also kind of where they met a lot of what would become the James Younger gang's other members as well. But Centralia, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 10:12

There's a Centralia at Pennsylvania.

SPEAKER_02 10:14

Oh.

SPEAKER_00 10:14

I really want to go to it's like a ghost town totally side note there, but that looks like that's the only reason I knew. Yeah, right. Cool. I'll send you pictures later.

SPEAKER_01 10:24

Um but sorry. They killed over two dozen Union soldiers that were heading home on leave on a train just completely out of the blue. Oh my god.

SPEAKER_00 10:36

Oh my god, a train.

SPEAKER_01 10:37

There's gonna be a lot of oh my god, there's gonna be so many of that later. But this is where the incest starts. Yay! Cause in 1865, Jesse would become engaged to his first cousin, Israelda Z. Mims. Oh. They would stay engaged for nine years until they got married in 70. I have it written. I think April of 74. A long engagement.

SPEAKER_00 11:22

Very long engagement. Is it because he might have had second thoughts about marrying a cousin? Because I think that's understandable. I think that's reasonable.

SPEAKER_01 11:35

You know, I would like to think so. But considering that this is like right before he started his career, so to speak, I think it's more of just he's like, oh, I'm a big shot outlaw. Fuck you.

SPEAKER_00 12:00

Um Alright then.

SPEAKER_01 12:03

Anyway.

SPEAKER_00 12:04

Typical behavior.

SPEAKER_01 12:06

Very stereo stereotypical, but getting into um, I guess the career of the James Younger gang. I just realized of all the shirts I have on right now. Oh yeah.

SPEAKER_00 12:19

Perfect flip for today. Oh my god, train.

SPEAKER_01 12:22

Heck yeah. Um getting into the start of the James Younger gang and the start well, the kind of start of Jesse's career as an outlaw. On February 13, 1866 is when the gang uh robbed the Savings Association in Clay County, Liberty, Missouri. And they stole over sixty thousand dollars. Keep in mind that's in eighteen sixty-six. In inflation to today, that's one point two million dollars. God for their first robbery. And this is also the first robbery uh that was completed in daylight. I'm not really gonna get into kind of the next ten years, because it's just more of the same shit.

SPEAKER_00 13:21

Um You think that like you steal that much money? You think they just like Alright, let's live our life now, we're comfortable, yay.

SPEAKER_01 13:33

Right?

SPEAKER_00 13:33

But no, they don't. Yeah. They just like keep robbing banks and trains and stagecoaches.

SPEAKER_01 13:38

Mm-hmm. Yeah, because that's just it. It's like they do this for the next ten years, and kind of around like the early 70s is when Jesse really starts to be considered um more of a Robin Hood type of a figure. Early 70s was when Jesse kind of started taking on like the Robin Hood type persona, and he started coming out in like a bunch of articles and stuff. There was really one in particular person. Again, I didn't write down his name. I'm just amazing at doing research.

SPEAKER_00 14:25

It's not it's not so much your research.

SPEAKER_01 14:27

You're great at research, it's your note-taking. It's my note-taking that is terrible. It was John Newman Edward Edwards who started writing kind of more of the Jesse James, like Robin Hood stuff, and then like giving the gang more being like, oh, they're actually doing good shit, and they are you know, and they're not just giant racist fucking assholes. He was also the one that ends up writing Jesse James his obituary after he dies. But anyway Anyway, we'll get into of course that later. Um but after the gang robbed a uh train, oh my god. Oh my god. Um at Glads Hill in January of 1874, the Pinkerton National Detective Agency was hired to hunt them down. Dude, it surprises me how many people thought the Pinkertons were fake. Really? Yeah. Like after Red Dead came out, so many people were like, uh, the Pinkertons aren't real. And then they tried to sue Rockstar, and then they're like, wait, they're real?

SPEAKER_00 15:46

I I knew they were real when they tried to sue Rockstar, but initially when I did play the game, I didn't know that they were a thing. And like then I watched like a movie and saw like someone was a Pinkerton in whatever movie I was watching, and I was like, oh, that's a real thing, cool. And then I moved on. Like it wasn't yeah. It didn't take that much thought out of my brain.

SPEAKER_01 16:10

Yeah, it's like I knew they were like real, but I didn't like know like too much about the history with like Ellen Pinkerton and like it eventually becoming the FBI and stuff like that, which honestly getting into Red Dead a little bit here. Um it's one of my favorite little details of the fact that like they did go through the detail of having Ross technically be a Pinkerton first and working next to next to um Milton. And then of course in the epilogue you can read him uh forming the FBI. What yeah, if you uh open one of the newspapers and the epilogue, um it'll have an article talking about Ross forming um the FBI, which also completely debunks the theory of Red Dead and GTA being in the same universe. Because in GTA it's FIB.

SPEAKER_00 17:12

What you just blew my little gummy brain.

SPEAKER_01 17:23

Well, I'm about to blow it even more, so let's go. After the Pinkertons were hired to um hunt them down in April is when Jesse and his cousin got married. Disgusting. Yeah. Absolutely no.

SPEAKER_00 17:46

No.

SPEAKER_01 17:47

No. No, no. No. Uh PSA, don't marry your cousin. This is an Alabama. Even if you're in Alabama, don't. Don't marry Get some help.

SPEAKER_00 18:02

Just don't. Talk to someone. There's there's help somewhere. There's help. Don't marry a cousin. That's our lesson for today.

SPEAKER_01 18:17

The single takeaway from this episode.

SPEAKER_00 18:20

Follow me for more life hacks.

SPEAKER_01 18:24

God. But following year, January 25th, 1875, a group of Pinkertons acted out on a outdated tip that they got saying that the gang was hiding out on um Jesse's mother's farm. Of course, it was just now it was the one that was Samuel's first. But of course he had died at this point. And the Pinkertons would carry out a raid on the farm, and they threw, I think, flares or like some sort of like explosive or something, into that house, and it caused injur injuries to Jesse and Frank's younger brother, I think, who was so that that injured the other surviving brother then?

SPEAKER_00 19:15

Yeah. The other one was dead at this point?

SPEAKER_01 19:17

Yep. Well, cause that was just of the four kids were from just Robert and Z, and then this is because they had I don't know how many kids they had, but they had some more kids. It caused injuries to their younger brother and also their mother, and it actually br blew part of Zerelda's arm off. Damn.

unknown 19:42

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 19:44

Alright. The next year, on July 7th, 1876, the James Younger gang, they robbed the Missouri Pacific Railroad in Rocky Cut. So they took $15,000, which is roughly $463,000 today. And this would be the gang's last successful robbery before the robbery that ended it all in Northfield, Minnesota. On September 7th, two days after Jesse's birthday in 1876, the James Younger gang made their final robbery in Northfield at the town's first national bank. So Northfield actually does do like reenactments of that bank robbery. It's super fucking cool. I went there.

SPEAKER_00 20:35

That's in Minnesota. How close is that to you?

SPEAKER_01 20:38

I think like three hours away. It's down through the cities. Highly recommend. Um, but they make like a whole weekend out of it. They do like car shows. Of course, they've got the bank robbery going on. Um, they've got vendors set up. It's a beautiful area. But of course, I went there and I was, me being me, all up in my western um attire. And everybody like after the reenactment was done was coming up to me and being like, oh great job. And I'm like, I wasn't in it, but thanks. It was cool. It was a really cool reenactment. Um, one of the reenactors actually gave me um their one of their blanks from their 45s. So that was cool.

SPEAKER_00 21:26

Um I still have my blanks from the train in Deadwood train or I guess that wasn't in Deadwood, but Black Bills. Whatever.

SPEAKER_01 21:34

Haley. Yeah. Yeah. I'm sad I didn't get a blank from Deadwood. I totally was gonna ask one of 'em. Cause I went up and talked to like the wild bill actor after one of the um reenactments. Oh hell yeah. I got four of 'em. Haleya. Dope as hail. Dope as hail. Anyway. Back to the actual fucking history and not just me nerding out.

SPEAKER_00 22:02

That's the point of yeah this is to nerd out. That's why we're doing a whole podcast on this shit. I mean, because we like to nerd out over this.

SPEAKER_01 22:11

Yeah. Who am I kidding? Um but so the day of the brothers, Frank and Chelsea, of course, along with Bob Younger, they went inside the bank and tried to demand the money, but the b bank clerk, Joseph Lee Haywood, refused and was shot and killed. And he was also shot and killed along with a Swedish bystander by the name of Nicholas G Gustaf Gustafson.

SPEAKER_00 22:44

Is it Gustafson or is it Gustavson?

SPEAKER_01 22:46

It's Gustafson. Gustav.

SPEAKER_00 22:49

Gustav. Gustav. Gustav.

SPEAKER_01 22:53

Yeah. I knew a couple uh Gustafsons in uh high school, so. That's cool. I don't know if they're at all related, but I don't care. But after that, the gang fled and took off from Northfield. They were pursued, of course, by posse. Once they got to Mankato, they ended up splitting up. James Brothers going one way, and the younger brothers, along with another member, Charlie Pitts, they went another. And after a couple of weeks, the younger brothers and Charlie Pitts had almost covered 400 miles when a posse caught up with them, they killed Pitts and arrested the younger brothers, taking them to Stillwater jail. And yeah, then following kind of after North Northfield, Frank and James, they left and went to Nashville, Tennessee. And Jesse, of course, being Jesse, he grew restless and in s 1879 he started to form recruits and formed the new James Gang. Meanwhile, Frank, he actually settled down in Nashville a little bit. And didn't actually want to, you know, get back into it, but of course he did. On October 8th, 1879, the new James Gang robbed their first train, the Chicago Alton St. Louis train in Glendale, Missouri. And they did a few other like robberies and stuff during kind of this time as well. And they started to grow s skeptical of each other and whatnot, as they naturally would. Now, the train that inspired well, the opening of the assassination of Jesse James took place on September 7th, 1881. They robbed their last train, the Chicago and Alton train, at Blue Cup, Missouri, which is near Glendale. They made off with $3,000, roughly, and that inflates to $97,000 today. Of course, that wasn't like all cash. Some of it was, but some of it was also like jewelry and stuff as well. Nobody was killed during this. But a month later, Jesse ended up killing a gang member named Ed Miller for allegedly taking uh too much. Again, kind of with the whole like Robin Hood bullshit. Later that year, in November of 81, Jesse would move his family at this point, he had two children, up to St. Joseph, Missouri, where he actually wanted to like give up his life of crime, and he ended up living up under the name of Tom Howard.

SPEAKER_00 26:06

And this is the train that inspired the scene for pouring for the pouring forth oil part four. Yep. In Red Dead Redemption 2. The iconic train robbery. Yes. With the oil wagon.

SPEAKER_01 26:22

Yeah. And we'll get into that when we actually like get into more of like the movie breakdown and shot-by-shot stuff and whatnot. Um Jesse ended up actually living pretty peacefully for the next year-ish. Until April 3rd, 1882. When brothers Bob and Charlie Ford, they ended up visiting the their home on uh La Lafayette Street with uh plans to outline a robbery, apparently. And this is when of course they are like members of the new James gang, and we'll get into that a little bit more when we get to the movie section, which will be in like a couple of minutes. But Jesse noticed the f a framed picture on the wall, it was a needlepoint that was done by his mother. Some people um claim it says in godly trust, some people says it's nothing. In the movie it's shown as a horse, which I think it is. He stood on the stood on a chair to fix the picture. Bob came up uh was behind him, cocked his Schofield, and shot Jesse James in the back of the head, killing him. And then Zee, um his cousin wife and his two kids, they were in a separate room, so they came running, of course. After Bob killed Jesse, Bob kinda killed him for two main reasons. He had made a deal with the governor to be pardoned after he arrested or after he got arrested because he killed Wood Height, one of the other gang members. Bob also wanted to collect on the $10,000 that was placed on Jesse's head. Uh yeah. And after this, Bob traveled around kind of performing in like theater shows where he would reenact the assassination. A lot of the time getting scorned because he did the cowardly thing of shooting Jesse in the back of the head instead of facing him head on. And that's where the whole like kind of cowardly killer thing comes from in like the Jesse James song and whatnot. Of course.

SPEAKER_00 28:56

I feel like I feel like if Jesse was living peacefully, he could have just like gotten him arrested, right? Like he didn't have to kill him, did he?

SPEAKER_01 29:07

No, he didn't have to, but at the same time I do feel like if Jesse, like did get into like a situation where like he was gonna be like arrested or some shit, I feel like he would not be the type of fucker to go peacefully.

SPEAKER_00 29:32

That's fair.

SPEAKER_01 29:35

I mean, especially considering his past and considering it's not that long after um that final robbery, too.

SPEAKER_00 29:44

See, when I was watching the movie with you, and keep in mind I was very tired at this point, but I was awake at least. Uh that that scene when Bob shot Jesse in the back of the head, that was like such an awkward scene, but it like felt like Jesse knew. I was just gonna say that, because it's it's like if he did he know he was gonna get shot in the back of the head and just like wait accepted or I don't know.

SPEAKER_01 30:11

That's the thing also, when like doing research on it, that's like never said, so I don't know if that's just a crate of liberty that the movie took.

SPEAKER_00 30:22

Because like Bob cocks the gun and just like stands are pointing it at him, and Jesse clearly hears the click. Yeah, and it's just like, wow, look at this picture of a horsey.

SPEAKER_01 30:37

Like dude is like Well, that entire sequence in the movie is such like specific movements because it's like Jesse looks at Bob, looks at a chair, grabs the chair, puts the chair down, stands up like out of it.

SPEAKER_00 30:58

It's like an afterthought. They're like, oh yeah, this is the part where they have to have Bob kill Jesse. Let's just throw this in. Mm-hmm. It was it felt way too like like Jesse was like planning this or something. Like it was just weird. I don't know. Like I didn't know if that was how that actually happened in real life, yeah, or if that's just cinematic trying to like portray it as it was like as it was told because right. We don't know that's exactly what happened, right? This is just because Bob reenacted it a million times.

SPEAKER_01 31:37

Yeah, exactly. And that's kind of what I'm thinking, like, is because he tried to like do it up as like he knew when it was more of like a mutual killing.

SPEAKER_00 31:52

That's what it seemed like. It really seemed like Jesse was just like, okay, run along, my child my children, go play outside, go play outdoors. And then he's like, anyway, nice. Anyway, oh wow, look at that horsey picture. It's crooked. I better fix it. I need a chair, I'm not tall enough to reach it. Let me get a chair to stand on like a fucking child. Oh, what is that clicking noise? That's a gun cocking. Horsey. Right. Yeah, I'm like, I I don't know. It was that whole scene was so uncomfy to watch because of that. I was like, that can't be how that actually happened. The dude had a $10,000 bounty on his head and he just was like, horsey. Yeah, constrained too. Like you're crooked. He was only 34, so it's like He had children and a cousin wife.

SPEAKER_01 32:52

God. While he was doing like these live shows and stuff. I am so surprised he survived a fucking decade. Yeah, that is shocking. Charlie, who was also there. And in the movie, they just have him like just chilling against like the fucking door. I don't know again if that's like what actually happened in real life. I couldn't. When he died? When he died, yeah. Like, because they've got Bob, of course, like directly behind him. But then they've got Charlie, like, over on the corner, just like leaning against like the wall by the door.

SPEAKER_00 33:41

Was Charlie the one that killed Bob? I forget it.

SPEAKER_01 33:43

No. Bob's the one that killed Jesse.

SPEAKER_00 33:47

I know that but we're talking about when Bob died.

SPEAKER_01 33:50

No. Are we not?

SPEAKER_00 33:51

Oh, we're talking about when Jesse died.

SPEAKER_01 33:53

Yeah. Yep. Because Jesse got shot in the back.

SPEAKER_00 33:56

I thought we moved on.

SPEAKER_01 33:57

I thought we were past that. Basically over it now. Um, so Charlie, he killed himself. It's unknown what he did in a newspaper article from Colorado says that like he might have did it because he has he had TB. Um not TB, not the toberculosis. Um I'm scared. Or that like he just had extreme remorse, or another account stated that like Charlie was worried that Frank was gonna come and take revenge for Jesse's death. Bob Ford his life came to an end in 1892 when he was in his own saloon, when Edward O'Kelly, uh he entered the saloon with a double barrel barreled shotgun, said hey Bob. Bob turned around to go look at who was speaking, and Edward fired both barrels of that sod off shotgun. Right into Bob. At close range. At close range.

SPEAKER_00 35:09

Damn. Yeah. Edward was big mad.

SPEAKER_01 35:15

Yeah. And it's like that was random. Like there was no actual, like Was it because he was a coward? Connection. That's what like a lot of people say that, oh, it's because he was a coward, or it was because Jesse got not Jesse. Um because Bob did get tried for murder after uh killing Jesse. So like they're questioning if like it was because of that or like what.

SPEAKER_00 35:54

But who is Edward O'Kelly? Like, did he have any sort of relation to Jesse or anything?

SPEAKER_01 36:00

No, just some random like random dude. Just a rando. Just a rando. Just a rando. But that that's basically that for like actual history shit. Um getting into the fun stuff, the movie. The movie, of course, is the assassination of Jesse James by the coward Robert Ford. Like we said, it's based off the book. Um Jesse James is played by Brad Pitt. He is kind of like a similar parallel to Dutch. If we're talking about like between like parallels between like the movie and the game stuff. They're both leaders of like powerful games, charismatic, infamous in the newspapers, blah blah blah.

SPEAKER_00 36:52

Um so hold on, we're gonna stick on that for a minute. But uh is a parallel to Dutch Vandolin because they're both leaders of a powerful gang, charismatic and infamous in the newspapers, both chasing ideals of their own better versions of America and what they believe it should be. So and that's not even outfit similarities, both well dressed and have a furred coat. Um, so that's only the movie Jesse James that's similar to Dutch and not real life Jesse James.

SPEAKER_01 37:22

I feel like a little bit of real life also kind of fits into that because I have it noted like later on. Um but of course, with like the whole Civil War stuff and like their hatred for the other side, because Dutch's unnamed father fought for the North, um, died in the Civil War, Dutch hates Southerners. Jesse's father, of course, kind of different situation kind of for the hatred, but in a way I feel like some of it kind of sprung up from Robert's death in the Civil War and the for Jesse's. And so I'm like, I kind of think that's a a very shallow parallel, don't get me wrong.

SPEAKER_00 38:07

But I mean, I see it. I mean you're talking about the Robin Hood shit.

SPEAKER_01 38:11

Yeah, that's just it. Plus the Robin Hood stuff. I mean, that's parallel kind of the to the entire gang.

SPEAKER_00 38:17

Um, he even has like Dutch vibes in the movie.

SPEAKER_01 38:22

Yeah, that's just it. Going like from the movie how Brad Pitt plays him, he very much does have Dutch vibes. Um and in the movie too, if we're going off of like that type of parallel, specifically being like Jesse James is Dutch, Frank is pretty similar to Hosea, at least on how he's portrayed in the movie. Um he doesn't have a lot of screen time in the movie, but of course he's being Jesse's older brother, and he's the one that's like wiser um and like always trying to be more, I guess, level-headed with things. And we see that he has like a conversation with Bob Ford. Um, because in the movie, that's who we follow, who's pa played by Casey Al Fleck. We watch them kind of have like a conversation.

SPEAKER_00 39:26

Is it Al Fleck or is it Affleck?

SPEAKER_01 39:29

Again Affleck. Casey Affleck. But of course, he's one of the members of the New James gang. Like we said, it was formed after everyone either got killed or arrested in Northfield. And it's kind of interesting because we watch him in kind of the beginning, he has like the conversation with like with Frank before like the morning or p the evening before the train robbery. And it kind of reminds me of because Robert's like talking to Frank about how he wants to like how he aspires um to kind of be like Jesse and how he looks up to Jesse and how he's never gonna be anything like Jesse. And they're supposed to be like John Marston. That exactly. That kinda reminds me of John and I mean, in particular, one of the best conversations in Sean's party, the one between um John and Bill. The one where they're drunk, the one where they're drunk, and Bill's like your Dutch's pet. And they get into that whole thing, and like your pet, and it's like, yeah, well, you're his favorite and whatnot, and it's favorite. People care about that? Well some do. Maybe me. Me. Ah shit. But yeah, I feel like it's a it can honestly, I feel like Robert can kind of be either a parallel to John or Arthur, but I feel like John's more fitting. Um because like we do c see him go from like looking at like, well, even like we were saying in like previous episodes, on like between John and Arthur, like who is whose kid. Um of course, like Arthur is more um Jose is even w writing as such in his journal, with like Jose has always been more of a father figure, and with us saying that like John is more um similar to like Dutch.

SPEAKER_00 41:50

Yeah, I mean we've talked about that before. I don't know if we talked about that on here at all, but we've talked about the fact that like it seems like Arthur was a little closer with Hosea and John was a little closer to Dutch.

SPEAKER_01 42:02

Mm-hmm.

SPEAKER_00 42:03

Growing up.

SPEAKER_01 42:04

Yeah. But it's like we watch Bob in the movie go from like looking up to Jesse um to like slowly not looking up to him as much. But also with for note with uh the whole like parallels, but there is kind of a more direct like influence with the Robert Ford thing within Billy Midnight. Because if you think about it, when you find in that gunslinger's side quest, when you find Billy Midnight on that train in roads, he's immediately like, I didn't kill him. And like he's super defensive about it, and he's like, he wanted to be dead or something like that. So it's like it's I can feel like kind of more of a mutual thingy thingy. Um and of course in Red Dead too. We do have like direct gangs from like Jesse James and then Nicole Younger. We do have like the actual versions of them. Um Jesse James is Otis Miller. We can find His Treasure. His treasure.

SPEAKER_00 43:36

Which is just a bunch of pictures of naked women.

SPEAKER_01 43:38

Yep. And a gun.

SPEAKER_00 43:39

And a gun. The gun's cool. The gun is cool.

SPEAKER_01 43:42

Um and we do also have the songs that of course are famous in real life. Um in the game changed from like real life into the game versions of them, of course. It's cool. That Northfield also mentioned that.

SPEAKER_00 44:03

Which one?

SPEAKER_01 44:04

Which song? With like the Jesse James, because Jesse James has a song, and then Otis Miller also has a song.

SPEAKER_00 44:14

What's the song?

SPEAKER_01 44:15

Um, it's just, if you look it up, it's just Otis uh Miller in the soundtrack, and in the game in in real life, it's like the ballad of Jesse James or something.

SPEAKER_00 44:27

Um we like hear the song in the game though? Yeah. The Otis Miller one?

SPEAKER_01 44:31

Yeah. Both are sung around the campfire.

SPEAKER_00 44:33

Um yeah.

SPEAKER_01 44:36

I'll uh send them to you. Okay, but and then Cole Younger is Jack Hall, who we get the treasure map of if we go and talk to Maximo.

SPEAKER_00 44:48

Maximo Crystal Ball.

SPEAKER_01 44:51

I think that's his name.

SPEAKER_00 44:54

Yeah, I'm pretty sure. Yeah, Maximo. Maximo Hell yeah, I got it right.

SPEAKER_01 45:01

Is it is there the E at the end or is it just Crystal Ball? It's just a O. I think. Um at least according to the Heartlands episode on the notes. But he's that's of course, like Cole Younger is supposed to be the Jack Hall gang. They also both have cigar cards.

SPEAKER_00 45:22

Um Maximo Crystal Val Val Despino.

SPEAKER_01 45:29

Of course we find him by flatneck, and that leads us on the first treasure hunt.

SPEAKER_00 45:35

Um Do you kill him or and take the map or do you buy it? For ten dollars.

SPEAKER_01 45:44

Most of the time well, if you pull your gun out. He'll just give it to you. I think he'll yeah, just give it to you. So if I'm doing a high honor playthrough, I'll do that. Otherwise, I'll shoot him.

SPEAKER_00 45:56

I love that it like takes effort for you to do a high honor playthrough. Whereas like other people are like, damn, I feel mean killing these people. I don't want to push Jimmy Brooks off the cliff. It's just because I'm impatient. That's fair.

SPEAKER_01 46:10

That's that's literally all. Like, most of the time, honestly, I don't do a low honor playthrough. Like, I'll do low honor things, but it's like the majority of my playthrough won't be low honor. But at the same time, I won't do things to build my honor either. Oh yeah, I forgot to mention with um the conversation with Frank and Bob and like the parallel between like Frank and Hosea and Bob and John, how like that conversation that they have at like the beginning is also kinda I feel like a little bit of ones of like the camp conversations we can hear of like Hosea telling John to get out of the life and actually like give Jack and Abgale like a good life and whatnot.

SPEAKER_00 47:02

Um I don't think I've ever seen one of those conversations.

SPEAKER_01 47:05

Oh really? I usually get one like start of chapter two at like the table because John will be reading like yeah.

SPEAKER_00 47:14

That early? Not like chapter four? Mm-mm.

SPEAKER_01 47:18

No, it's always been like chapter two and chapter three. Like John will be sitting at the table, like reading like his newspaper or something, and then Jose will come up and be like, you know, you could get out. And I think it happens with chapter three too.

SPEAKER_00 47:33

Really? Mm-hmm. I have never gotten that. That like weird.

SPEAKER_01 47:38

I always get it.

SPEAKER_00 47:40

I've never gotten that. That like totally adds to the Dutch suspicion in chapter four when he's wondering if John's the rat.

SPEAKER_02 47:49

Mm-hmm.

SPEAKER_00 47:50

And Gorma. I guess that's chapter five. Damn, that's wild.

SPEAKER_02 47:54

Mm-hmm.

SPEAKER_00 47:54

Do you think Dutch did did Dutch hear that? I mean did like Bill or Javier hear it or something? Like I don't know.

SPEAKER_01 48:03

I don't know. Well, I feel like for Dutch, more of it was just seeing him go from like in chapter three of him like not seeing John give a flying fuck about Jack.

SPEAKER_00 48:19

That makes it even more shocking about Hosea suggesting that I guess.

SPEAKER_01 48:24

Yeah. But at the same time, it's like it's also Hosea. So and like because he he well, he's the only one that's really like super duper reminiscent about like the past and stuff, and if like what we're talking about, like for like possible theories and stuff, with like them Jose and Bessie like wanting to like start a family and stuff, and then you know, he sees that John has that opportunity and I need to spend more time in camp when I'm playing I'm doing these playthroughs and I'm just like flying through it.

SPEAKER_00 49:00

I'm not doing listening to any of these dialogues.

SPEAKER_01 49:04

I also do it on YouTube too, but a compilation that has all of the camp like dialogues and conversations in it. So there's one that does it by like the entire thing, and then there's another one that does it like split into chapters, like chapter two, three, four, so on. Hell yeah. So it's like that's what I've been listening to for like the breakdowns and stuff. Broad Pitt, he kind of plays Jesse James as like a calm, mostly collected, like man. Um quiet, confident, pretty well read and like meaningful, meaningful within his words. Again, similar to Dutch. Both are very quick to lose their cool.

SPEAKER_00 49:49

I feel like Jesse's like losing his cool is like more unhinged than Dutch, though. Like Dutch is still like, yeah. Yeah. He still has like his wits about him. Whereas like at least when Brad Pitt as Jesse loses his cool, it's just like a flip of a switch. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 50:15

Mm-hmm. Yeah, it's like I feel like the only time we really properly see it like as like a parallel parallel is with Gloria. Yep. I was like, it begins with the G. I wanted to say Greta, but I'm like, nope, that's his mother.

SPEAKER_00 50:33

Gloria.

SPEAKER_01 50:35

Um, but yeah, I feel like really that's like for like comparing both of them losing their cool, I feel like that's the only parallel parallel we have. Right. And of course both of them like trying to mask their like descent into fucking insanity.

SPEAKER_00 50:52

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 50:53

One gets a little farther.

SPEAKER_00 50:56

Yeah. Like Jesse doesn't have like a big like descent into insanity.

SPEAKER_01 51:02

He's he's like pretty like it's more just like levelly, levily kind of losing their mind.

SPEAKER_00 51:14

It's already like lost, but like he's still smart.

SPEAKER_01 51:18

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 51:19

Except for marrying his cousin. I don't know what the fuck he was.

SPEAKER_01 51:23

Not not not cool. I mean, I guess you can kind of say it doesn't with like the death portion. If we're going with like how it was set up in like the movie of like Jesse knowing. In a way that I mean kind of a continuation of like the Dutch and John shit, especially with like how Dutch's death was originally supposed to be, because the player was supposed to have a choice on whether to kill him or not.

SPEAKER_00 52:03

Oh. Um I kind of wish we would have still had that choice. I don't know. It I I wish we could have had the opportunity to kill Dutch. It Selfishly. Oh no. Yeah, like I I get I mean it just story-wise that makes sense. It it's so good. I get it. But like I kind of just selfishly wish.

unknown 52:27

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 52:28

We would have had the choice.

SPEAKER_01 52:29

Yeah, because it's like I mean, we have the choice with of course everyone else to like kill or let the other person kill him, but um, or capture him and have nothing happen. Dude, I wish if we like were to capture Javier once we got into Blackwater, like we would have gotten to see him hang or something.

SPEAKER_00 52:48

So we we turn Javier in alive, right?

SPEAKER_01 52:51

And then Yeah, because you can choose either to turn Javier in alive or of course kill him. But then with Bill, it's either you kill him or Reyes kills him.

SPEAKER_00 53:02

Okay, so Bill is Bill's dead on that size.

unknown 53:06

Okay.

SPEAKER_00 53:07

I knew one of them you could turn in alive and the other one you turn in dead no matter what. I couldn't remember which one was which. I thought it was the other way around. I'm kind of surprised that Jesse James didn't have like a similar death to Dutch. Like, that just seems, I don't know, convenient. Right. That Bob just shot him in the back of the head. Like, keep uh I'm still just like, what the fuck was that death in the movie? Yeah. He knew he was about to die, and he just stood there looking at the pictures. And that's the movie is often regarded as the most accurate depictions of Jesse James's death. Yeah. And it's which is Look at the pony.

SPEAKER_01 53:43

Look at the pony.

SPEAKER_00 53:45

Look at the pony, Jesse. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 53:47

I guess not even really. I guess his death is kind of the wrong choice of word for my notes, but like that whole like after like the ending of his life.

SPEAKER_00 53:58

The ending of his life.

SPEAKER_01 54:00

Yeah, like as like new I just realized we didn't talk about the train at all.

SPEAKER_00 54:06

The train. Oh my god, a train.

SPEAKER_01 54:08

Let's get to the train.

SPEAKER_00 54:10

Shot for shot for pouring forth oil four.

SPEAKER_01 54:13

And then the beginning of that uh train rotary in the movie. It is the lighting is decently similar.

SPEAKER_00 54:25

Um the the train like like beaming through the trees and seeing the gang members hidden in the trees right there watching with their masks.

SPEAKER_01 54:36

Yeah. The only thing that really is different is what like Jesse and Arthur end up standing on.

SPEAKER_00 54:44

Yeah. Um Yeah, I was like, why is why is Jesse not standing on the oil wagon?

SPEAKER_01 54:50

Yeah, because in the movie Jesse just ends up standing on like a bunch of old um broken like pillar wooden pillars and stuff. But yeah, I think he's just standing on like broken bits of track or like wooden pillars or fonces or whatever. Um He's standing on wood. He's standing on wood. God damn it. Um but yeah, he ends up it's very similar in like the same regard, Arthur, of course, on the oil wagon. And that entire like sequence from the oil wagon, the gang in the trees, the train coming around the track, the shots of the wheel, the headlight, the coming around the like the corner, all of like that basically first cutscene is all in the movie. And like pretty pretty decently shot for shot. Of course, some of it's a little bit different, but not by much. And then that's pretty much where like for like the train rubber itself kind of stops with the simulator similarities, kind of understandably, because the rest of it you get control of Arthur, so there was nothing that you can really do in that situation.

SPEAKER_00 56:00

Yeah, and there's also like way more gang members that get on the train in the movie than there were in the game. Because in Red Dead it's just Arthur, John, Charles, and Sean. But in the movie, it's like the entire gang.

SPEAKER_01 56:15

Yeah. Yeah, I think in the movie it's five.

SPEAKER_00 56:21

I think there's like I felt like there was like eight to twelve.

SPEAKER_01 56:25

There might be more. I'm just trying to like think of for like that back room shot when they're in like the storage car.

SPEAKER_00 56:32

They show the shot where it's all of the gang walking up from the trees to like once the train has stopped.

SPEAKER_01 56:38

Yeah, when it's like the trees.

SPEAKER_00 56:40

There's like eight to twelve of them that come out of that are I mean the whole the robbery as a whole, not just the ones that go on the train.

SPEAKER_01 56:46

Yeah, that like whole thing is definitely more than um. It's like the entire gang. But then I think for like back in that like little like in the uh train car, I think there is only five to seven-ish, I want to say. Could be wrong about that. It's been like a week. It's been like a week since we watched it. Um but yeah.

SPEAKER_00 57:10

And that's it for us today, Outlaws. Thank you so much for spending some time with us here at the Outlaw Haven. It really means a lot to us. If you like what you heard, we upload every Thursday at 3 a.m. Eastern time. So make sure you follow or subscribe wherever you're listening so you don't miss what's coming next. And remember, don't marry your cousins. I'm Sam, I'm Zai, and this is the Outlaw Haven.