The Gray's & Braithwaites

Welcome to The Outlaw Haven podcast! In this episode we talk about The Gray's and the Braithwaite familes in RDR2!

Transcript

SPEAKER_03 0:00

Today, we're diving into one of the most layered, most tragic, and most satisfying storylines in all of Red Dead Redemption 2. The feud between the Grey family and the Braithwaits. Two old money families running from the inside out, sitting on secrets, lies, and a whole lot of stolen gold. Allegedly. We're talking Scottish Immigrants, Moonshine Empires, Stolen Horses, A June's love story, the suffrage movement, and one of the best missions in the entire game. And caught right in the middle of it all, the Vangelin gang, playing both sides. This one's got history, heartbreak, and a manner that deserves to burn. Pull up a stool, grab a whiskey, and get comfortable. I'm Sam. I'm Zah. And this is the Outlaw Haven. Starting with the Gray family. The Greys are a family of Scottish immigrants that came to America in 1755. They arrived in Scarlet Meadows and quickly established themselves at Calaga Hall, slightly inspired by Shirley Plantation, where they took advantage of slavery, also bringing in a high amount of tobacco and cotton. In 1806, Lucille Braithwaite gave the location of a significant sum of gold to Douglas Gray. After he got permission from Lucille, he stole that gold from the Braithwaits and stole more from his own family to help finance local abolition groups, causing each of the sides to believe that the other one stole the gold. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 1:22

No, we can actually find that letter in Lemoyne, kind of by the um eastern edge, by like Sisica and stuff, by kind of towards Copperhead Landing. And yeah, you can find it. It's I found that I don't know. But yeah, it's probably like the little cluster of islands, like right before Sisica on like the East Coast. But it's June 12th, 1806. My dearest Douglas, the mere act of writing your name weakens me with longing. My exile in Connecticut has endured barely three weeks, but it already feels like a lifetime since I last saw your wonderful smile. Why should the family into which I was born and a surname that was imposed on me dictate whom I can and cannot love? Like you always say, however, there are so many less fortunate than ourselves and subject to far worse partially and narrow mindlessness. Importation slaves into this county. Please take all that gold to the group I told you about. It should provide them with enough funding for another two years of operation so they can keep pressure on Congress to abolish the importation slaves into this country once and for all. Our two families are so blinded by adverse and bitterness that either they will not realize it is missing or that they will assume that the other has stolen it from them. Then come for me, my love, as we planned, and we will flee somewhere far away down to South America or across Europe, where we can simply just live live live our lives as Douglas and Lucille, not as a Master Gray and Miss Braithwaite. Yours always, Lucille.

SPEAKER_03 2:55

Hmm. I don't know if I've ever found that letter. Like it sounds familiar, but I I don't know. Maybe I found that in an early playthrough that I have not touched in a long time. I don't know.

SPEAKER_01 3:07

Could have been, yeah.

SPEAKER_03 3:08

The big thing here with Grays and Braithwaites is how this is similar to it's compared to Hatfields and McCoys a lot, and also compared to Romeo and Juliet. What were the family names for Romeo and Juliet? I don't remember.

SPEAKER_01 3:23

Well yeah, I couldn't remember.

SPEAKER_03 3:25

I'm gonna look it up real quick.

SPEAKER_01 3:28

Um yeah, and it's like even with I did a little bit of research for like the Hatfields and McCoy's for this episode. And like really, it's honestly not that too terribly inspired. Of course the Hatfield and the McCoy's they are more Appalachian type. We talked about it a little bit with our episode with Tory, but not a whole lot, but they're um living between like the border of West Virginia and Kentucky. And really throughout that entire feud, it's not a whole lot of like overlap aside from the fact that it's like still fighting with like the Confederacy during the war and they both owned slaves and selling moonshine. And then of course the um like the forbidden Romeo and Juliet type of a romance between um who was it, Rosanna and uh Johnce. But other than that, I feel like that was mostly like it between the two.

SPEAKER_03 4:37

Like it gets compared to the Hatfields and McCoys a lot, and I don't think it's really all that similar. Like the the blood feud subject is about the only overlap there.

SPEAKER_01 4:54

And then like considering they both fought for the South and then the um shine business, and then of course you know the relationship, but yeah, that I feel like yeah.

SPEAKER_03 5:09

Funny story though that I wanted to tell when we were talking with Tori when we started talking about the Hatfields and McCoys, and I totally wanted to bring this up and totally forgot and just didn't. Um, so I married into the Hatfield family. My husband's on his dad's side is Hatfields. I went to the Hatfield family reunion last summer. That was a good time. But so when we were going through a lot of my in-laws' stuff in like their storage unit, my father-in-law gave me this old it's like a a document that was written about the Hatfields, like the history of the Hatfields. And I've told you this story before, but I still think it's entertaining. Maybe it's just me. Um, so again, I'm not I don't know, I don't know first names, I don't know who it was. I just know these were at the Hatfields. This was in the family history documents. One of the old mama Hatfields was like eight or nine months pregnant. She had two kids already. One was like, I want to say like five years old, and the other was a toddler, like maybe like 18 months old, something like that, year old. And I wish I had this with me in front of me, but I can't find it for the life of me. Like, I think my in-laws took it back. So I'm paraphrasing unfortunately, but I will try and get the story, hopefully, at some point. Um, so Mama Hatfield takes her young children to the sawmill to visit their father while he's working, and sh Mama Hatfield's like big pregnant, and the older of the two kids, the like five-year-old, is playing with a hatchet. It's always a good start. And he hacks off the younger sister's finger. And so big pregnant mama Hatfield takes her children and carries them and is running through the sawmill, jumping over logs and shit, trying to get her baby's finger taken care of. And they go and they like reattach it with like honey and molasses, and the baby's finger reattaches and all is good. But then a few years later, history repeated itself. The same sawmill, same Mama Hatfield is pregnant again. And older kid now, like one of one of the other older kids, not the one from the last one. I'm assuming this is that infant, hacks off the little sibling's finger, and pregnant mama has to run her kids through the sawmill, get another finger reattached. Happened exactly the same. And then like there's like a grandpa Hatfield that and they reattached it with honey and molasses, and he had to sit with his foot propped up so that it wouldn't move for like two months, three months, and wait for his toe to reattach with honey and molasses. And like a scientist like did like a study on it and did some like whole like article on it or whatever, did some big study on this dude's toe, and he said he like confirmed the toe did reattach with honey and molasses. I think it even said like he got use of his toe back and everything. Oh wow, right? And then um, like my father-in-law told me that his dad at one point shot his toe off by accident and they had to reattach it with like honey and molasses again or something. And I'm just like, okay, no hat fields are allowed near any sharp objects. And I'm always telling Ethan, I'm telling my husband, like, if he's got like a knife or anything and he's like cutting stuff, if he has a hatchet, hell no. Game over. I'm like, you watch your digits, man. You're a hat field. The family curse. Protect your digits, Hatfields. Any other Hatfields listening to this? Protect your digits, no sharp objects in your hat fields. That's becoming a clip.

SPEAKER_01 9:03

So that's my story. That would be kind of a cool t-shirt, I'm not gonna lie. I know, right?

SPEAKER_03 9:09

Put a like hatchet and then like write Hatfield on it and be like, watch your digits. All right, getting back into Red Dead Redemption. When the Vanderlyn gang arrives in Rhodes, Dutch being Dutch talks his way into becoming deputies of Sheriff Lee Gray. Arthur also finds Bo Gray, who asks him to help deliver a letter and a gift that you can sell to the fence in town for $10 if you really wanted to, to Penelope Braithwaite. Arthur finds Penelope sitting in a gazebo by the water on the Braithwaite Manor. Penelope states that she's planning to do a rally for the women's suffrage movement. Bo, fearing for her safety, will ask Arthur to stop her from rallying. In town, Arthur drives the wagon and then they run into Bo's cousins, Lane and Scott Gray. Arthur, John, and Javier will talk to Tavish Gray, the Gray's family patriarch who hired them to steal some prized horses from the Braithwaite Manor. Later on in chapter three, Arthur, Bill, Micah, and Sean go into town because Bill apparently had had a deal to cut with the Gray family. In Rhodes, they get ambushed and a sniper kills Sean Maguire. Britt.

SPEAKER_01 10:16

Big sad.

SPEAKER_03 10:18

Bill gets captured by Lee, Jack, and two other deputies. Arthur and Micah make quick work of them saving Bill before dealing with Sean and the gang's first casualty since Blackwater. That was a weird timing. Anyway. Thanks, Mom. Thanks, Mom. If you go back to Caligol after this mission, on the back porch you can find Tavish Gray dead with a letter next to him from the Edinburgh University historian Malcolm Moffat. Moffat? Moffat, I think. I think it's Moffat.

SPEAKER_01 10:57

I don't know.

SPEAKER_03 10:58

I don't know. The letter reveals that Tavish's ancestor Ross Grey wasn't an exiled Jacobite as he believed, but was in fact a spy for the Duke of Cumberland, who was forced to flee from Scotland after actual Jacobites began hunting down loyalists.

SPEAKER_04 11:12

Mm-hmm.

SPEAKER_01 11:13

And then once again, you can find that letter um on the back porch of the of Calga Hall.

SPEAKER_03 11:19

Yeah, I didn't I didn't know about that letter until I think maybe a couple years ago.

SPEAKER_01 11:24

Yeah. And of course, we're kind of like doing a general overview of like these missions and stuff right now, because obviously we covered them a bit more in depth in our um chapter, part one, and then we will again next well. Actually not next week, but the week after. For uh part two point of chapter three. Yep.

SPEAKER_04 11:47

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 11:48

But the letter is April 3rd, 1895, Edinburgh University from the senior professor in history. Dear Mr. Gray, thank you for your long and well-researched letter regarding your ancestor. Forgive me, I was unclear as to if he was your great-grandfather or great-great-grandfather for me remissive. And his ostracizing emigration from Scotland to the colonies in the aftermath of the uprising of 1745. I hate to be the bearer of apparent bad tidings, particularly when communicating with such a passionate Scot in exile as you described yourself, but I am afraid our recordings are rather precise. I have made an extensive study on the spy networks of the Duke of Cumberland, as you may be aware. The Duke was an excellent record keeper, and it seems that the relative of whom you speak, Ross Gray, was unquestionably a well-paid informer. He was paid in both cattle and cash and also rewarded in significant land holdings confiscated from his neighbor. That would explain why he did not leave Scotland until 1755, fully ten years after the revolt. This was, of course, the the year when a few Jacobite supporters began reprisals against the known informers in the Highlands. I am sorry if this is not the news that you were looking for. The Jacobite era was a very complicated time in Scottish history. And certainly my ascendants are divided into rebels and loyalists. Being the prod prodigy of a family of loyalists is certainly nothing to be ashamed of. At least I hope not. If you are ever in Edinburgh, I do hope I can show you around the university. Yours isn't yours sincerely, Malcolm Moffat.

SPEAKER_03 13:28

And Tavish promptly read that letter and died. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 13:33

Who knows? He fucking I mean, there's no like actual like gunshot wound or anything. A lot of people, I think, say that he died of like a heart attack or something. Yeah. Which is just funny to think of. Because it's like he goes from bitching about Catherine Braithwaite to like John and Javier to just finding that letter and just him just being in such a shock. He just fucking has a heart attack and dies. Yep. And I mean it's cool because I think you can actually find Ross in I think even Lucille's grave in the roads cemetery.

SPEAKER_03 14:14

Oh, really?

SPEAKER_01 14:15

There's yeah, there's a lot of like Greys and Braithwaits buried in the cemetery.

SPEAKER_03 14:20

I do, I do remember seeing Lucille's grave.

SPEAKER_01 14:22

Yeah. I that's one of my favorite things to do is like go around and look at all the graves. Yes. Even with the um inscriptions, there's usually a lot of like hints to just well, whether it be actual history or like media or or stuff in other games, whatnot. It's cool to see.

SPEAKER_03 14:43

Let us know if you want an Easter egg episode where we talk about all of the little hidden details of this game. That one's gonna be a two-parter. There's so much shit.

SPEAKER_01 14:51

So much.

SPEAKER_03 14:52

I looked at the uh Red Dead wiki just to take a peek. Oh boy. It's a lot, and there's there's so much like I spent the first year of playing this game just finding Easter eggs, and obviously I've found a whole lot since then, but there's some that I still have never found. Like um the daughter at uh Emerald Ranch. I've never seen her. Yeah, I've I don't think I'm going there at the right time, but yeah, um I haven't tried since.

SPEAKER_01 15:19

Yeah, I don't think you've tried since because I know we talked about it in our Heartlands episode.

SPEAKER_03 15:24

Yeah, yeah, I still haven't found her. But I haven't tried either, so yeah, yeah, because I know that's just it.

SPEAKER_01 15:30

I found out like so many secrets and like little Easter eggs and stuff through the strange man's YouTube channel. It's like it sucks that it's kind of like just a ta text to well, a text channel just with subtitles and whatnot, but whatever, it's still my god, it's great content.

SPEAKER_03 15:52

Oh yeah, yeah. Strange man's YouTube channel gives so much good shit. Sorry, hold on, let me chew this gummy in my mouth. It's not a fun gummy, it's just a regular gummy. Dang. I just wanted to chew it up before I start reading because I didn't want to be like, I didn't want to make this an ASMR podcast. The Braithwaites. The Braithwaites established themselves in America around 1779. By the time the 1800s came around, they had a bustling slave plantation, and the Braithwaite Manor, Oak Alley plantation in real life, became one of the richest and most powerful in the area. After slavery became abolished in 1865, it significantly damaged both the Grays and the Braithwaites. At some point prior to 1898, the Braithwaits turned to illegally producing moonshine, becoming the dominant producer in the area of Lemoyne, somewhere along the line working with Maggie Fike, who controlled the moonshine business in the area, disappearing in 1892 after she was caught and burned by Reed Hickson and his revenue agents. Sometime after that, the Braithwaites recruited Maggie's former cook Danny Lee, who was looking for protection. During the events of Red Dead Online, once the player starts the moonshine operation, Maggie has the player sabotage the Braithwaite's moonshine still, eventually leading them to Bartholomew Braithwaite, Danny Lee, and several others. So we are going to do quite a few episodes on Red Dead Online, and we're gonna talk a lot about the Moonshiner role specifically.

SPEAKER_01 17:15

Hey, it's the possum! Hi buddy, do you want to make an appearance? Hi, look at my peer.

SPEAKER_03 17:23

No one wants to listen to the Grayson Braithwaites. We want we want to see the dogs.

SPEAKER_01 17:26

We want a dog.

SPEAKER_03 17:28

Mine is currently scratching at the door. He wants out.

SPEAKER_01 17:43

Can I work?

SPEAKER_03 17:45

He's like, yeah, let's work.

SPEAKER_01 17:48

This is how we're recording now. But yeah, we wanna eventually do um episodes on Red Dead Online. We're thinking at least do one episode kind of generally going over the um We wanna eventually do one episode going over like the storyline of Red Dead Online with like Jessica Leclerc and stuff like that. And honestly, I figure we can do one whole episode just on the moonshiners. Um I think it'll be a little bit harder to dedicate like a full episode to like any of the other roles just because they don't have like a storyline like this one does. But and then too, I think it would be fun to try and get um some of a friend group on just to talk about like Red Dead Online and whatnot. Yeah, that one'll I think that'll be really fun talking about that.

SPEAKER_03 18:42

Yeah, that'll probably happen once we finish all our chapter six episodes of quite a ways away, but we can look forward to it. Who knows? Maybe we'll do maybe we'll sneak it in sooner. We'll find a way. I don't know. Who knows? People want it bad enough. Yeah, that's just it if people want it soon enough. I want it. I'm excited for those episodes. Continuing where we left off. I'm fully planning on leaving the Nipsey part of this in. Oh, yeah. And people are just gonna be so confused as to why we're calling them a possum until they get next week's episode.

SPEAKER_01 19:15

Oh my god, yeah.

unknown 19:18

I didn't even think of that.

SPEAKER_03 19:20

It'll all make sense next week. Oh, yeah. Back to the continuing where I left off. In chapter three, after Dutch Arthur and Bill steal the moonshine from the Lemoyne Raiders with the help of Lee and Archibald, Hosea and Arthur go to the Braithwaite Manor to try and sell the moonshine back to where it came from. Initially the family's hostile, pointing guns at the pair until Catherine Braithwaite steps in and gives them $10 if they bring the wagon into roads and gives it away at the Gray Saloon for free. After that mission, Sean and Hosea go back to the manor where Catherine tells Sean and Arthur to go to the Greys and burn the tobacco fields at Calaga Hall, being promised gold in return. At the same time, this is when the deal is made with Tavish Gray to steal the horses. After the Braithwaites realize they've been played by the Vanderlyn gang, they kidnap Jack Marston, giving them giving him to Angelo Bronte and Sandini as they're in debt to him. After Sean's death, the gang storms the manor and arguably the best mission in Red Dead Redemption 2, Blood Feuds, Ancient and Modern. You can find the gold shield with gold shield?

SPEAKER_01 20:21

Yeah, there's a gold shield on the mantle of the fireplace with the Braithwaite family's crest on it. And then have I never found that? Because it's in the room. Like as soon as you enter the house, it's gonna be like right to the right. In the room that you enter during like the when you go to the house with Jose and Sean when you meet up with him. Um it's in that same room. But in that room, there's also a letter to Angela Bronte. I didn't know about him until I think like last year I was trying to like find more information, stuff like on the Braithwaites and whatnot. And I found, yeah, strange man the strange strange man video, funny enough, of course. And um, yeah, it had those and I mean I'm like, oh, interesting. But um the letter reads Catherine Braithwaite, Braithwaite Manor, Scarlet Meadows the Mine. Dear Senior Bronte, thank you for your message of last week. I trust you know that I always appreciate your candor. I would however urge you to reconsider how we're we are too proud and ancient families have worked together successfully for five years now. We have always provided a quality product and paid our debts. You in turn have been a valued, the most valued of customer. Now, when faced with a small cash flow problem and a minor disruption in supply, you are threatening to d derail a successful business relationship. Out of respect for you, I will not allow you to do so without a fight. We cover our debts shortly, I assure you of that. I agree they have grown bigger, but we will pay the interest. W within the quarter. My spendthrift middle son has reformed his ways. This will not continue us for the supply problems that disrupted business. That is a matter we have resolved entirely, as I told you, furthermore.

SPEAKER_03 22:12

What is the thing that one of uh one of our sons has resolved or whatever?

SPEAKER_01 22:17

I have no clue. I want more information about that. Same.

SPEAKER_03 22:22

It's funny how like like it's just a fictional game, but like there's so many little details and like so many theories and things that just make it feel so lifelike. Yeah. That like we'll be like, I want the family history of the Greys and Braithwaits. It's like it's a video game.

SPEAKER_01 22:40

Yeah. Oh, also to note, um, I just remembered it. Underneath the staircase in the Braithwaite Manor, you can actually find a full family photo of the Braithwaits, and it even has Gertrude uh Braithwaite, who's the Braithwaite that's locked in the outhouse. Oh, I'm not sure. But as like a little kid.

SPEAKER_03 22:59

I've never seen that.

SPEAKER_01 23:00

It's really cool. Again, it's something I found when I was doing research. And I was like, that is really cool. That is really cool. But of course, during Bloodfeed's Ancient Modern, the gang kills the entire family and burns the manor down after they don't find Jack. And I hate that I always think of it, but I'm like, man, it would be so fucked up if Jack was still in the manor.

SPEAKER_03 23:29

Dude, when I played that the first time, I was like, hang on, hang on. We can't just burn this to the ground. What if he's hiding in a closet somewhere? Like, did we really check everywhere? I don't think we checked everywhere. Like, what if he's hiding in a closet and we're just burning the manor to the ground? I was panicking about this the first time I played it. Like, this is fucked up.

SPEAKER_01 23:48

I mean, and the score is oh my god, phenomenal. Oh, the music, the music in that mission is beautiful. We're gonna gush over it in our check.

SPEAKER_03 24:00

We gush over all of the music in this game on a very frequent basis. Yes.

SPEAKER_01 24:06

I wish I knew more about like music and like scores and stuff, because I'm like, I would so love to do a video or an episode on like the music of it. Like it would obviously be cool. Like if we could get like Woody Jackson or Bill Billum or somebody.

SPEAKER_03 24:25

I was gonna say I would love to have Woody Jackson on here. It would be that'd be cool.

SPEAKER_01 24:30

That'd be so cool. It's like I don't know shit about music. I mean, I kinda do because I thought I was a band kid, but you know more about music than I do.

SPEAKER_03 24:39

I mean, I was an orchestra through fourth grade to senior year, but I know how to read it.

SPEAKER_01 24:44

That's it. I would love that though. Yes. But of course, they drag well, Dutch uh drags Catherine down the stairs, and uh Catherine's just like, oh yeah, give him an Angela Bronte. And after that we see Catherine run inside the house when it's on fire. Um, and you can actually go back inside the manor after you're back in like Freyrom and you can loot her corpse giving and it'll give you her brooch. And then nearby there's actually a hidden lockbox that you can find a gold bar in. And I I think there might also be a glitch with that where you can like somehow glitch it. There's a lot of glitches when it comes to like the gold bars to get them like infinitely.

SPEAKER_03 25:36

I never knew that about that one, but um also I forgot that I was going to get I found the the letter that Bo is writing to Penelope. Oh yeah. Because you can go into photo mode and you can see where he's writing it. His handwriting is really hard to read. Um, okay. So there's also like the part where you can read the actual letter that you give. I couldn't get that part from where I from the save that I had, because I was just going back in and replaying the mission. So I wasn't able to get the letter, but the journal entry again, his handwriting is so hard to read, but he drew a picture of her and it says, Oh Penelope, you are my wise Penelope, and I hope to be your brave Odysseus. It is as if my uh I don't know what that word is, were mere miles from something else. Yet the ground between here as inescapable. Yeah, I'm not sure. Yeah, it is inescapable. Any something C. I would gladly suffer shipwrecks and desert islands to be with you. And then there's like something else. I couldn't read it because there's like a wooden board through it, but it says something about suitors. If it meant something, we could share a kiss, Penelope, Penelope, Penelope, my love, my life, my home, my wife. Question mark. At first, I almost read my homie.

unknown 27:03

My homie.

SPEAKER_03 27:04

Penelope, my homie. And then the letter says um something sometime ago. Sorry, I did not answer at an earlier date. Unfortunately, I was unable to sit something, something shit. I don't know. I can't read that. It's like so hard to read. Yeah. But yeah, that's if you go into photo mode when you do the mission, like before you start talking to Bo when you go to Caligall to talk to him behind that building, before you go take the letter and the bracelet to Penelope, before you go into the mission. If you pause, go into photo mode, then you can see the letter in his journal. And the photo of Penelope isn't it's a good drawing, but it's not very flattering.

SPEAKER_01 27:49

Yeah, like sorry, Bo. There's also like a doodle of like some sort of like flower, and then I think of like what's supposed to be like Caligol itself or something like that.

SPEAKER_03 27:58

It's just like a house. Yeah, I don't think it's Caligol, because I think he's trying to say that like she is his home, and right.

SPEAKER_01 28:05

I don't know. There's that. I tried to read it, it's really hard. Yeah, yeah. And so in chapters fast forwarding, because of course that's kind of the end for now of like the Greys and the Braithwaites, because well, Greys are all dead, and then all the Braithwaites are dead, except for really Penelope and except there was still like a few like Braithwaite workers and stuff around if you go back to like Braithwaite Manor.

SPEAKER_03 28:31

I don't think those are actual Braithwaits though. I think those are just the workers. Yeah, same. Which who's paying them at that point, right?

SPEAKER_01 28:39

Yeah, it's like who are you?

SPEAKER_03 28:41

Why are you all staying around? Everything up burned to the ground and everyone's dead.

SPEAKER_01 28:45

Yeah, that's just it. It's like you're working on a manor that has nothing there. It's just a pile of rubble. And they get mad if you ride through there too. Yeah, it's weird. Like they're they're still like scripted, like it's chapter four, it's or chapter three. Right. But in chapter six, like, as soon as Arthur wakes up from uh another brutal death, Penelope sends Arthur a letter saying that like she's being held in the cabin on what remains of the Braithwaite Manor, kind of like hoping to get out. Like she's locked up there because of like her role in like the women's suffrage movement, and that like they killed all of Cal Calhoun, who is the um leader of that movement. And I get the message they're trying to send for that like women's suffrage mission, but man, I hate it. It's so slow. It's like other than that, it's fine, it's just like it's so slow.

SPEAKER_03 29:47

There's so many like really slow missions like that, and I'm just like I hate it because like I don't have the attention span for those ones.

SPEAKER_01 29:53

Yeah, so like it's like we've played it so many times, yeah.

SPEAKER_03 29:57

And it's like the one where you like go look at the alligators in chapter four, or like when you you have to go get the skiff and get the skills and get jewels back. That one is so painfully slow that like my ADD kicks in and I'm like I'm on my phone, and then like I'm just like holding the stick forward so he's moving, and then either he gets lost or they're telling him to stand still and he's still walking, and then an alligator sees him and eats him, and I have to start all over.

SPEAKER_01 30:27

I mean, hey, I always let Dutch get eaten by that alligator.

SPEAKER_03 30:30

That can happen.

SPEAKER_01 30:32

Yeah, if you fail the mission, um, when the gator, when the legendary bull gator comes up, like after you get jewels to the skiff, and like you have to shoot at the alligator that first time. If you don't shoot at it enough, it'll come up and fucking fight Dutch. I never knew that.

SPEAKER_03 30:49

Um I wanna go if I can say that just to find out. I don't see if that's true, right? Oh, it's not that I'm doubting you.

SPEAKER_01 30:56

Again, I didn't know about it until like a few years ago. I was watching a YouTube video and like somebody failed the mission, and I was like, that can happen. I'm like, I need photos. Right? So then I had to do that just so I could get photos. Anyway, back to the grace and the braithways. Arthur gets the letter, and um, it's just dear sir, you were once very kind to Boa and myself, and it pains me to ask you to show us further kindness, but I have nowhere else to turn and no nobody else whom I can impose. Of course I will pay you handsomely for your troubles. My family have turned quite mad and are threatened threatening to send me away to stop my work, which they say is disgracing them. As if their history of absolute moral depravity, utter debauchery, and perpetual drunkenness did not disgrace them enough. I must escape, except I am kept prisoner here. Can you help? Most days I can be found at the cabins on the plantation. The main house and all it stood for are thankfully no more. Yours, faithfully, Penelope Braithwaite.

SPEAKER_03 31:59

What family is holding her hostage there if they're all dead? Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 32:03

It's like that is a such a great question. You know, and that's the other thing.

SPEAKER_03 32:08

Going back to like I guess I guess technically some of the Braithwaits that are attacking you end up running off through the fields at the end.

SPEAKER_01 32:15

So maybe well, even then, like it's like they're the guards. Oh. Because you kill all the brothers or all the sons. Yeah, so it's only Garrett, Gareth, Bartholomew. What family is keeping her there?

SPEAKER_03 32:29

I think a few others, but yeah, like there's that much to keep her held hostage over the women's suffrage movement after their entire family was killed and their mansion was burned to the ground.

SPEAKER_01 32:38

Yeah, keep in mind months prior, because it's like, okay, this is after like Guarma and all that shit.

SPEAKER_03 32:44

Oh yeah.

SPEAKER_01 32:45

So it's like it's probably at least been another two, three months.

SPEAKER_03 32:50

And they're holding her there because of her her participation in that suffrage movement. Like they're mad about that, but not the fact that like everyone's dead and the house burned to the ground. They're more mad that she participated in the women's suffrage movement. But yeah, it's interesting too.

SPEAKER_01 33:07

For real. Like the photo that's taken that's hanging like under the stairs is actually taken in front of like one of those cabins. And I'm like, why is it taken in front of the one of those cabins and not why would it not be the manor? In front of the manor, but it's at the same time, it does have like all of their um workers or like slaves in the photo in the picture, yeah. Which is kind of odd. That is odd, considering yeah, the time and whatnot.

SPEAKER_03 33:35

Yeah, that's that's weird. Why would they not take it in front of the manor? Yeah, it's like it's over a hundred-year-old mansion that they're like so proud of. Right. Why would they take a picture of the family in front of a little cabin? For real, like, yeah, that's kind of again. Braithwaite's get your priorities straight.

SPEAKER_01 33:54

Right? Wow. Yeah, you'll get that letter and then you can go back down to to Braithwaite's property and uh pick up Penelope. And you can actually take Penelope to the outhouse where You can? You didn't know this?

SPEAKER_03 34:12

No.

SPEAKER_01 34:14

Oh my god.

SPEAKER_03 34:15

You don't spoil it for me. I wanna find out. Insert that clip here. We're gonna we're gonna get on Red Dead and I'm gonna replay that mission. It is in the mission, right? Yep.

SPEAKER_01 34:25

You start the mission, and as soon as that Don't tell me, don't tell me! I'm just telling you how to get there. Okay, that's okay. As soon as you start that mission and that first cutscene ends, take her straight to that outhouse and just sit there. The dialogue will play out.

SPEAKER_03 34:40

I never knew this!

SPEAKER_01 34:42

Okay, insert that clip here.

SPEAKER_00 34:44

You don't want to mess around over there.

SPEAKER_02 34:47

I do want to mess around over here. Look, Penelope.

SPEAKER_00 34:51

That's my poor cousin. There's no help in her. Believe me, I've tried.

SPEAKER_02 34:58

Oh, that's all she says? Oh, she's just like that's my poor cousin. I've tried to help her blame me, I tried or whatever. I knew how to mistreated enemies. Yep.

SPEAKER_00 35:16

It's a great shame. Unfortunately, not that date. I told myself she was better off here with family than in a sanatorium, but maybe she isn't. I'll do what I can from Boston for her.

SPEAKER_01 35:32

But you find that outhouse and it it that is uh Gertrude, like we talked about. She's disfigured mentally unwell. How long was she locked in this outhouse? Right. Well, because it it's interesting if because you can go there too, just as Arthur to like investigate it, and she'll just be saying a whole bunch of random numbers, too. And I think that ends it.

SPEAKER_03 35:56

There is something with that though.

SPEAKER_01 35:57

There what is it? Yeah, I know the strange man did another video on that. It's some sort of code, but I forget what it is, but it does talk about something.

SPEAKER_03 36:08

Is it like the Aztec symbols in Blackwater that translate to Blessed Are the Peacemakers or some shit?

SPEAKER_01 36:15

It's not directly tied to that. I think it's tied to like it's something else, because that's of course its own thing, but I think it does tie to something. I'll have to maybe watch that video. So with um Gertrude, um, of course, she's Catherine Braithwaite's only daughter. Like I said, she's like mentally unwell and she's like disfigured have has like a major cleft lip and whatnot. Penelope talks about like sending her to a sanatorium.

SPEAKER_03 36:46

Does she say like what was wrong with her? Like, did they just try to send her to a sanatorium because she had a cleft lip?

SPEAKER_01 36:52

Well, they in because they didn't end up sending her to a sanatorium. They were going to, but they didn't because they're in fear of like their family's name being tarnished. So they were like, hey, let's just lock her inside an outhouse. Yeah, that makes sense. Yep. And then Penelope like talks about how like she's gonna try and help her. But um, as we learn the epilogue, this is very much so a blatant fucking lie. Because you can go back to the Birthway property and you can find that outhouse. And if you look inside, Gertrude is nothing but a pile of bones.

SPEAKER_03 37:23

You know what I wish you could have done as Arthur, if you find her there, you should have been allowed to like shoot the lock off, and then Gertrude like just runs out and like I don't know, like runs runs away or like runs off into the lake or something.

SPEAKER_01 37:39

That would have been kind of a good jump scare. Is like if you don't look in there but you just shoot the lockoff first, it breaks open and she just comes running tackling Arthur and then just continues to run off.

SPEAKER_03 37:50

That would be awesome. That would be thank god, that'd be a good jump scare. That would have been but I don't like that we didn't get the option to try and help her.

SPEAKER_01 37:59

Yeah, well, I mean there's not even a lock. I don't think there's even a lock on the outhouse. I think it's literally just chains wrapped around it.

SPEAKER_03 38:05

Okay, it has to be locked for the chains to be honest. We should have been allowed to shoot the chains. We can shoot the chains off that one prisoner that's wandering in the woods. Why can't we shoot the chains off the outhouse and let Gertrude go? Right.

SPEAKER_01 38:17

But in this, um in the mission, we take Penelope back into roads to meet up with Bo. And you meet up with Alden and get you end up buying the tickets for the train, and as you walk outside, you um run into Bo's cousins, Ian and Scott, and they of course try and pull Bo away, and they they get into a fight with Arthur, of course. And after that is after you beat them the fuck up, you get them get Penelope and Bo on the train and Penelope's cousins, which bitch, your family's dead.

SPEAKER_03 39:01

Seriously, the whole family freaking died. Where are all of these cousins coming from? For real.

SPEAKER_01 39:12

Literally, like so they all start following like the train. Oh my god. Oh my god, a train and Arthur like fights him off, and then the fucking conductor of the train gets scared shitless and just fucking jumps off the train and abandons it. So then Arthur has to drive the train all the way to Rig Station, which doesn't make any sense because they say, Oh, the train's going to Saint-Denis. Mm-hmm. But they get to the st station and Penelope offers Arthur a um sapphire bracelet, and Arthur's like, it is like real or whatever, like the birthway treasure, and you can either choose to accept it or reject it. And of course, if you refuse, you get a gain and honor. And so then I can't remember because I know if you take it, you can sell it. I forget how much it sells for because I usually all I think it's like $40.

SPEAKER_03 40:07

Sounds right. I think it's like $30 or $40.

SPEAKER_01 40:10

Yeah, I don't think it's that might be. I don't think it's a lot.

SPEAKER_03 40:13

Pretty sure that's what it was.

SPEAKER_01 40:15

But it's been a while since I did that. Because you can yeah, I forget how much the like even Catherine's broaches too. I think that might be around the same price.

SPEAKER_03 40:24

Yeah, sounds all right.

SPEAKER_01 40:27

But after this, Arthur puts them on a stagecoach and tells tells the driver to like head to Boston, gives Penelope he gives Penelope or makes the driver give Penelope his gun.

SPEAKER_03 40:39

Yeah. Because of the jewels on her person.

SPEAKER_01 40:42

And then yeah, they go up to Boston Boston and you never hear of him again.

SPEAKER_03 40:46

I think it's funny that like Penelope tells Arthur that they are thinking they're gonna go to Boston and Arthur's like, yeah, that'll be good. They'll like you there or something. And it's like, when the fuck was Arthur ever in Boston? How many times are we gonna say this in this podcast where we're like, where the fuck did this game go?

SPEAKER_01 41:01

Well, that's the only time that Boston's all over the place about it. So I'm like, I know.

SPEAKER_03 41:06

I don't know and then like Penelope talks about Ohio and Arthur says that he's never been to Ohio, but it's like Arthur and or Dutch and Hosea met in Ohio.

SPEAKER_01 41:16

Well, yeah, but that was in 77. That was before Arthur joined. Because they picked Arthur up in 78. They couldn't have gone that far. I mean do you know how far they're gonna be? Yeah, okay. Yeah, that's fair. We have tried to do this out before. Dude, we could make an entire episode of just uh us complaining about the seriously, like the and like where they've been and trying to figure it out with the US map.

SPEAKER_03 41:44

Yeah, trying to figure out where the gang has gone breaks my brain every time we start talking about it. When we start trying to like map out everywhere they've gone and like what time frame, it just doesn't make any sense. Like I know it's fictional. Everyone's gonna be like, Yeah, duh, it's a fictional game. Like, okay, yeah, but I still want to make sense of it. This game is so immersive that I just I want to make sense of the entire timeline of the gang in their lives.

SPEAKER_01 42:08

Yeah, and it's like of course, like roads and stuff were like different and whatnot, but at the same time, it's like, okay, you're traveling by horse. Yeah, like we're not traveling by cars.

SPEAKER_03 42:18

They go from like Ohio to Chicago to Tucson to Montana down to uh oh yeah, and then at some point they go to Reno. Forget about that. So then at some point they go to Reno and then they go to Montana, and then they go down to uh Missouri, and then then we're back up into the mountains somewhere.

SPEAKER_01 42:38

I'm assuming like in like Hosea shit because it's like okay, Jose is like Milwaukee, San Francisco, and again Louisiana because he was in that area with Bessie with Bessie, yeah.

SPEAKER_03 42:51

Like you guys were on horses. How were you traveling this far this fast? Those are some fast ponies. Right. Anyway, I don't want to keep going on and on about that.

SPEAKER_01 43:03

You wanna talk about Hatfields and McCoys now? I didn't write down like a whole lot, I kind of stopped after basically like Johnson remarried um in 81 because basically like after that they ended up getting into like a giant is when the like major like the blood feud and like the war and stuff basically started between them. Um and I'm like okay, that happens, but again, we don't see that happen with like the grays and the brace weights so much.

SPEAKER_03 43:40

So I'm like Um You have written about um Okay, so the Hatfields were family living on the West Virginia side of Fort Tuck, part of a river between Kentucky and West Virginia. The Hatfields were led by William Anderson, Hatfield, Devil Anne. And I I do have something else to say about that lands. Um he had a saddlebred. Just a stupid fact because I'm a horse girl and I rode saddlebreds for a long time. I'm a saddlebred girly. And I mean saddlebrads are expensive horses. I feel like it needs to be talked about. It's kind of a small world now. But the saddlebred world has just gotten so small. And it's cool that Evelance horse was a saddlebred. Anyway. The Hatfields were more affluent than their their rivals were also connected well politically too. Evalance Hatfields timbering operation was the main source of the family's wealth as he employed dozens, including some McCoys. McCoys were a Kentucky family living on the other side of Tug Fork. They were a lower to middle class family under the leadership of Randolph McCoy, who owned a 300-acre farm. Both of these feuding families had a lot of overlap. They both were involved in manufacturing and selling moonshine. They both fought with the Confederates during the Civil War. There was one exception with Asa Harmon McCoy, Randolph's brother, who fought for the Union. Of course, because of this, he was seen as a traitor. During the Civil War, William Hatfield and Randolph McCoy served in the Logan Wildcats, part of the Confederate Home Guard in the fall of 1863. There were multiple attacks from the Kentucky Home Guard against the West Virginia side of Tug River, resulting in the death of William H. Francis, Jr., Bill France, after the Logan Wildcats surrounded his home. In early December 1864, Asa McCoy was released early from the Army due to a broken leg. He returned home to a warning from Jim Vance, the uncle of Devil Ant, that he could expect a visit from the Wildcats. On January 7, 1865, Asa hid in the cave after hearing gunshots. The Wildcats followed him there and shot him. At first, it was Devilance Hatfield that was suspected, but was confirmed to have been at home sick during the murder. After that, it was widely believed that Jim Vance was the one that killed Asa. I hope I'm saying that right.

SPEAKER_01 46:10

I think you are.

SPEAKER_03 46:11

It was after this point when the relationship between these two families really started to decline. Throughout the next few years, the families feuded more and more. In 1880, Johnson Hatfield met Rosanna McCoy. They hit it off immediately and would disappear for hours together. Rosanna fled to West Virginia to try and be with Johnse, but was followed by a posse of McCoys. They arrived at the Hatfield home and arrested Johnsy because of the bootlegging warrants. Devlant soon gathered his own posse to get his son back. After this, Rosanna and Johnsey remained apart even though she was pregnant. Both the Hatfields and McCoys refused them to marry, but Johnson soon moved and married Nancy McCoy, the cousin of Rosanna in May of 1881.

SPEAKER_01 46:54

Yeah, like damn it.

SPEAKER_03 46:55

So there was like a real life bow and Penelope there. Mm-hmm.

SPEAKER_01 47:00

Yeah. And the that's kind of where I stopped type typing in the document. Rosanna's or Roseanne's father, like she he wouldn't accept her or like the baby and just absolutely refused to speak to her, like at all.

SPEAKER_03 47:17

That was her father or baby baby's father. Her father. Her father refused so she he just like disowned her because she got pregnant with a McCoy. With a McCoy.

SPEAKER_01 47:29

Yep. And then her mother like arranged for her to leave. You mean a Hatfield because she's a McCoy. Her yeah.

SPEAKER_03 47:36

She got pregnant with a Hatfield and her father was like, You are dead to me. Yep. Yeah. Yeah, cool. Just making sure I got that correct.

SPEAKER_01 47:45

Yeah, her mother arranged for her to live with her aunt Betty in uh near Springfield. And it gets really sad because her baby ended up being a girl um named Sarah. She ended up dying at eight months old because of measles. Oh my god. Yeah. And then Rosanna, she was said to be heartbroken, and she just never emotionally emotionally recovered from it and ended up dying at the age of 29. Oh shit. Kind of after that is when like the relationship. I mean, of course, it was already like declining at like the turn turn of the 80s. It just continued to like get worse and worse. And in um August of 82, there was a um event in Kentucky, and three of Randolph's sons got into dispute with some of the brothers of Devil Ans, and there was stabbing and shooting and blah blah blah. And super just bloody and that's weird. This is where kind of where stuff gets like super war-wise and like super like bloody and shit. I mean nothing really is too terribly sad for like the next couple of years. On January 1st, 1888, the Hatfields planned planned to kind of hopefully end the feud. They just full on open fire on on Randolph's home. And yeah, that house was also burned to the ground. Which I mean, I guess also, you know, kind of a a reference, I guess, to you know, the Braithwaite manor.

SPEAKER_03 49:26

Yeah. I guess there is a little bit more overlap between Frazen Braithwaites and Hatfields and McCoys than I thought. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 49:32

Kind of to a degree, but I still feel like it's like definitely.

SPEAKER_03 49:36

I just mean like there's definitely like obvious inspiration there.

SPEAKER_01 49:40

Like there's oh, for sure.

SPEAKER_03 49:42

More to it than what I thought. We don't have to really get too far into that, I guess. No. Because it's already pretty far into this episode, but yeah, there is an episode of last podcast on the left that does way more in-depth analysis and like discussion of the Hatfield Semico's. Their episode is so good on it. So I I don't know that I really feel the need to make an episode about the Hatfield Semico's and like this is kind of like the extent that we're gonna get into it at least for now.

SPEAKER_01 50:10

Yeah, I'm like, I mean, like we say all the time, I'm like, if y'all really want it, we'll do it.

SPEAKER_03 50:15

Yeah, I'm definitely open to requests.

SPEAKER_01 50:17

Yeah, as of now. I mean, we don't really have anything, but yeah, if you guys want like any specific like episodes, of course, we're gonna continue with our chapter breakdowns and things like that.

SPEAKER_03 50:29

But if you want any like failure episodes, so to speak, or like filler episodes, but like I mean real life inspiration, yeah, real life outlaws, master night. I really, really can't wait to do our episode on Bell Star.

SPEAKER_01 50:44

Yes, that is going bells inspiration. Yeah, that'll be fun. Especially, yeah, if they do, of course, have like a real life counterpart like Animated Dead or with movies. Once we get into chapter six eventually, we're gonna be covering Butchcasting the Sundance Kid because that cliff scene is like heavily inspired from that movie. And well, of course, Dutch's speech is you know directly taken from the one that he has in Red Dead One, but that is also just a really good movie, and there's a bunch of other movies too that would be just a really good fit. Because I think eventually doing those like outlaw videos, like the Jesse James video, or that was that was really fun to research. And it's like we honestly didn't even talk about the movie that terribly matt.

SPEAKER_03 51:33

If you haven't listened to our Jeff Jesse James episode yet, go do it, go do it. That was a fun episode to film.

SPEAKER_01 51:38

Yes, yeah, and we got a fucking dope ass poster from it.

SPEAKER_03 51:42

Anyway, I think that's a good place to call it and wrap it up from here. So stay tuned for what's to come. Find out why Nipsey is a possum and not a dog. And yeah, next week's episode.

SPEAKER_01 51:56

Yeah, we got some really cool stuff happening.

SPEAKER_03 51:58

You're gonna love next week's episode. It's gonna be so good. I can't wait. Yeah, we got some awesome description thing. Insert the outro. That's it for us today, Outlaws. Thank you so much for spending time with us here at the Outlaw Haven. It really means a lot to us. We upload every Thursday at 3 a.m. Eastern Time. So if you like what you heard, make sure you follow or subscribe wherever you're listening so you don't miss what's coming next. Also, please take a moment to leave us five stars because it's the best way to support what we do. I'm Sam. I'm Zara. And this is the Outlaw Haven.

SPEAKER_02 52:29

This world has a lot of ugly in it, but it sure as hell has a lot of beauty. You eat babies.