Ep6: Are Short Form Games Boring?

Linda launches a vicious barrage against short form improv games against which James mounts a noble defense. But can he survive her brutal attacks?

Have a question or Improv related topic you'd like to hear us discuss? Send a short email to LindaTellsJames@gmail.com

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Transcript

SPEAKER_00 0:00

I was thinking of all those clubs where there was a little money and they couldn't get out because you know they were stampeding because they were.

SPEAKER_02 0:09

Anyway, get back to your point.

SPEAKER_00 0:11

Anyway. Um, I'm not cutting in with that. Um ready ready.

SPEAKER_01 0:24

Hi, James. Hi, Linda. Welcome everybody to another episode of Linda Tells James He's Wrong About Impro. Woo! Yay!

SPEAKER_00 0:31

Fireworks.

SPEAKER_01 0:32

Shh.

SPEAKER_00 0:34

Welcome back, welcome back. Um how are you? I'm good. Oh good. How are you? A bit tired. I had a weird broken sleep thing. Oh. Yeah, that's fine. It's not a big deal. I'm fine. We're scrolling the interwebs. We're playing video games and and whatever. It's just because after because I I I was teaching, um I was teaching acting that evening. And I think you know, when it's social and it's kind of and it was great, it was really fun. But I'm kind of on a I guess my brain gets really activated and it takes a while for me to wind down. Yeah. So yeah, that took a while.

SPEAKER_02 1:10

It's just it's like doing a show. Yeah. Also when you're you're on as a teacher all the time. So yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 1:17

Yeah, yeah, absolutely. So yeah, that's why I I find it hard, like I find it impressive that other people can do like shows in the evening and then just go back to work the next morning. Like, it's because I I need to yeah, like process and unwind and yeah, just kind of and also it's just I guess adrenaline as well, right? And you know, so it's kind of enjoyable.

SPEAKER_01 1:41

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 1:41

I'm a bit more of a night owl as well.

SPEAKER_02 1:43

So okay, well then I have no sympathy for anything. What are you not a night owl? Yeah, uh oh, that's uh that's a question. Um I don't know. There you go. Because I tend to I don't say up too late. Oh, okay. But look, let's if I was single living on my own, I probably would be, you know, going a bit later and fought around. Partying, going to clubs. No, definitely not. Like, ooh, what other movie can I watch on the streaming platform or ooh, look, another baking show. Woohoo! Or whatever.

SPEAKER_00 2:28

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 2:28

Um, because I do so I do often feel like there aren't enough hours in the day for me to do not even just the things that are necessary, but just things that I love to do. So it's always like, oh done, I gotta do this before a certain time because then I have to have dinner and go and hang out with my beloved and then go to sleep. And um, yeah, so I just certainly wish there were more hours in the day. Am I an out night owl? Probably not. I do love the crispness of the morning.

SPEAKER_00 2:58

Another crisp early morning. Walking out on the moors with your greyhounds.

SPEAKER_02 3:04

On the moors. Yes, my life is amazing. Anyway, we digress. So uh we should talk about improvisation because that's what everyone's hanging out for us to do if they haven't already fast-forwarded. I I guess to the end.

SPEAKER_00 3:22

Okay. Well, yeah, yeah. So yeah, we um in this podcast we chat about improv. Um, we'll bring a question or a statement, an idea, and we'll kind of um talk about it. And then at the end, Linda tells me I'm wrong. So yeah. Um uh good. I have something for you.

SPEAKER_02 3:39

Please. You ready? I am ready. Okay, this is a uh this is a controversial one. I think. Okay. Improv games are boring and long form improv is the way to go. I love this. Yeah, something simple like that. Improv games are boring, and long form improv is the way to go. Boo, boo, boo.

SPEAKER_00 4:04

I mean, obviously, um obviously I know that you you you don't I don't personally resonate with that statement entirely. Um You don't personally you don't. I don't know. I know you don't, so you're saying it.

SPEAKER_02 4:19

Yeah, I'm not completely well. I don't resonate with anything that is that this is good, this is bad, don't do it.

SPEAKER_00 4:25

Obviously, this is pointless. But I guess I I mean at the core of the um at the core of of that question, I think, like when I'm thinking about why short form I have a confession. I kind of partly agree with like yeah, I can agree to that with that statement to a certain extent. Um, I think because the issue I have uh with I love short form games, you know, like um that's that's kind of the bread and butter of of my improv troop, the uppercrest um players. You can find them on the socials and the website. Um go and donate to us on anyway. Um Uppercrest players. Um but yeah, yeah, that's how bread and butter. I love um the uh kind of uh initial uh I mean all of them, but my favorite kind of iteration of Whose Line Is It Anyway was the kind of early seasons of the American one. Um and yeah, obviously that's just short form games. But uh and I teach a lot of short form games as well, um, with improv. The thing is that they're bad, bad, because for me it's the temptation is to and and and and the um reward is to reduce it down to a formula, and to me that's the exact antithesis of what improv is about. Absolutely. So and unfortunately, kind of the way that I teach it, actually, I teach it as a formula, you know. Um, but it's kind of with the caveat that once you know the formula, you can break it.

SPEAKER_02 6:08

But I need to get so but by formula you mean you teach the structure, you don't you don't teach it, or do you mean I mean by because when you say formula, I think if you want to win at this game, this is what you and win in vertic commas, if this is what you do, you do this, this, this, and then you'll be you will have uh one this game. I I I uh and that is for example, how to make word at a time story easier. Do this, this, this, and then you'll and that's the formula for getting this right. Is that what you mean by formula?

SPEAKER_00 6:45

Kind of. I mean no, uh yes, that that is what I mean. Plus structure. So, yeah, absolutely. It'll be stuff. So, yeah, I if I do teach when I do teach word at a word at a time story, I'm like, ah, okay, um, pace. It's like if you keep the you know the ball in the air, it's actually easier. If you stop every time you hear something that doesn't sound, you know, syntactically correct to you, you're gonna you know, the whole train is just gonna hit a wall.

SPEAKER_02 7:13

So yeah, because there's a difference between t teaching how to um guarantee success in a game uh as opposed to actually teaching the the what it is that that game is supposed to teach you.

SPEAKER_03 7:29

Do you know what I mean?

SPEAKER_02 7:30

Yeah, because that's uh because if you're because it sounds to me like you're you're talking about listen, you're still talking about listening, um uh accepting and being true to the form of the game.

SPEAKER_00 7:42

Yes, I I'm still I'm still doing those skills, but there are like there, I don't know, I feel like there are some little like tips and tricks or whatever to these games that kind of only apply to those games, whereas which for me is is not what are you really learning there? You're learning to play the game, you're not learning how to play how to how to improvise, right? Um, yeah, so I think stuff like that is uh is the I guess the way we the reason I say formula is because eventually over time I feel that those tips and tricks kind of you know trickle down into this kind of you know handbook or rules of like, oh, okay, well we we we we need to do this, you know, and this this is the way it needs to be. And that inflexibility, you know, or I think that totally and it encourages railroading. It's like, you know, oh, there's a scene in like, oh, um, we should expect that, you know, somebody should change their opinion, you know, probably at the two-thirds mark or whatever, or the three three-fourths mark. Um, therefore, oh, somebody has to do it. Um, you know, I'm in the middle of the scene. Oh, I could change my opinion to this. It's a bit of a stretch, but nobody else is doing it, so I'm gonna force it in there, you know? Um, because that's the formula and that's how I was taught it would be it would be effective. Um, so I think that is, I guess what I'm I'm I yeah, so I I think what I'm teaching them is the you know, this the skills and the tips and tricks, but I think over time the danger is for me is that they will eventually become the formula. And I have to be aware as a teacher of like once they uh kind of get mastery over that game or whatever, then I can push them to encourage to either break it or um or even kind of it's all it's almost like it's almost you know the formula is almost like for me, sometimes the scaffolding of the building. So you need the scaffolding first to build the building, but then you can run the scaffolding later. So um there's some students I'm teaching at the moment, there's one class in particular, um, who are uh year seven. So they're pretty young. But because I've been able to teach them consistently for a couple of years or so now, um they're they're quite good and they all know each other very well. And their class has actually become quite it's almost like a little um uh what do you call it, like a lab, in terms of like I've tried to now go, okay, let's um let's try and fail. Let's see what doesn't work and then talk about it, and then and it's not about a judgment necessarily, but it's about just learning through trying and experimenting. But I needed to teach them the kind of initial formula of setting up an open scene. Yeah, you know, okay. Like, and it's and again, it's not it's nothing that you know people are gonna like, oh my gosh, uh an open scene, oh you didn't uh you didn't tick off that checkbox, you know, you didn't name each other with first names, you didn't say where you are, you didn't say what you're doing, you didn't start with a mime, you know, oh you know, fail, right? Um, but I think I needed to give them that formula with the logic underpinning it as well. I think that's also the important thing.

SPEAKER_02 11:04

Yeah, okay. Well, I think that's a good entry point is is give them the uh the setup, the f the formula, the the structure of the game um key ways or um things to look out for, um, but then also the knowledge that this is just the starting point and um uh you still want to be able to not you don't want to get the game right. That's the thing I I feel is often taught is if there's so much around um this is the game, this is how you play it, and if you do this you'll get laughs and da da da da da da. It's really defeating the point in that it's it's stops becoming improv improv and it starts becoming you getting the game right. And um that's the difference for me between doing the game well and do you wanna do you wanna do play the do you want to do a good show when that is do the game well and give the audience what we think they want, uh a lot of laughs and predictability, or do you want to be a good improviser? Because I don't think those two necessarily go in hand. Of course, you can be a good improviser and give the audience uh a dare I say great show. Yeah, that's the call. You're not giving them the the the same show you've always the same theatre sports or games-based show that you've always given them every Saturday night. Da da da da da. This is what we do, we do these games, this is how we do it. I've seen that guy do that game a thousand times, he always does that accent, da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da. Great, great, could be a great show because the audience have come, it's a let's say it's a late-night Saturday show, they're out for a good time, yeah, they walk away, they're all happy, they had lots of laughs. But are you a great improviser from that? I would say no, because you haven't done anything.

SPEAKER_00 12:56

You haven't improvised, you haven't you've relied upon something that you already know works perfectly fine.

SPEAKER_02 13:01

Yeah, now that's that's not to say that the merit of short form games is therefore you know it's it's null and void that for short form games, therefore should terrible because they encourage this sort of stuff. It isn't to say that. So, what what are the merits of short form, James Hartley?

SPEAKER_00 13:22

Um I I think well, I think one of the merits of short form is I'm kind of you actually you mentioned it just then is predictability, right? And I don't think uh I think predictability can sound like a bad thing, but it's more about what's really great is that with short form is you're setting up expectations with the audience that they can immediately be on board with, and then you get to fulfill them. And I think that uh that for me is needs to be looked at less of as a structure, you know, format and more like uh uh uh the fences around like a playing field, right? And you get to just do whatever you want inside that, and I think that's enjoyable, yeah. Uh yeah, right. So and it's something that I think can really quickly um allow the audience to share the room and the space with the performers because often the audience get to relate because the performers have the same information as the audience, you know? Um, and often sometimes the audience have more information, right? If there's a performer out there who's doing a kind of um uh what's a there's a you know the style of game where they they like an information game where they don't have the full story and the other performers are trying to give them. Oh, right, right. Yeah. But the audience know, right? So they already know what the information is. They know that the performer is gonna have to guess this at the end. The joy is how to get there. So when that becomes a formula and becomes predictable, then it yeah, it will sap its joy and its energy. So you do have to remain on that edge of how do I complete this? And I guess the audience keep you truthful too, because you know that they know, so and you know that they know that it's gonna resolve at the end. So you kind of have a lot of freedom in that regard if you let yourself be free and open to the moment, right? Instead of just kind of railroading down to uh yeah, to the conclusion.

SPEAKER_01 15:19

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 15:20

So I think that's definitely um in terms of uh fulfilling audience expectations, I think it's really, really good for that. Um, and sometimes and sharing the room as well. I think sometimes I think long form can, you know, just in its nature, you know, just kind of disappear up its own ass, right? And I think short form is able to keep the the playing field a bit more level between the players and the audience. But yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_02 15:51

When you say disappear up its own ass, what what exactly do you mean? No, I I know what you mean.

SPEAKER_00 15:56

It's uh self-indulgent, maybe yeah, no, definitely it's self-indulgent. I suppose it's it can be.

SPEAKER_02 16:02

We're not saying it always is, but it can be.

SPEAKER_00 16:04

Yeah, yeah, it can be. Um I think to the good intentions of the play of the players, perfectly good perfectly good intentions, but it's it's it's a because um it's a very difficult balance, I think, as a performer, of being true to yourself without indulging yourself. So if right, okay. Because if um if I'm uh I have to be in the moment and I have to be true to myself, right? Um so that means that I only have myself to draw from. Um so essentially I'm and that okay, sorry, go on. So if I'm uh say if I'm improvising with a very good friend who I've been working with for a very long time, we might have our own in-jokes, right? That kind of we've developed for ages past, right? But if we kind of go on stage and we do our in-jokes, they're true to us, they're who we are, they're things we like, but we've kind of shut the audience out of that.

SPEAKER_02 17:18

Absolutely, right?

SPEAKER_00 17:20

So you can be true to yourself.

SPEAKER_02 17:21

And I hate you. One of my yeah. Why doing don't be doing that around me? What? The in-joke thing? Yeah, I don't I hate it when I don't like it. Well, when improvisers. When improvisers do any sort of when they're God bless them, when they're clicky with each other and and they even see if they sneak in one in-joke, you just completely shut out the audience.

SPEAKER_03 17:51

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_02 17:53

Do you do you want us here? Do you want us do you want us to step out for a moment? Or you just self-indulge with your little kind of you know, frat thing that's going on. Yeah. Uh yeah, anyway.

SPEAKER_00 18:04

It's it's funny, there's a um I remember watching this uh YouTube uh series ages ago, and they were trying to kind of do um it was like the first episode, and they were trying to establish it's not improvise, it's scripted, but they were trying to establish the um these characters and their relationships, right? Oh actually, Star Wars, I'll come back to in a second to Star Wars. Star Wars does this very poorly in like episode two, but or episode three. Oh my gosh, I can't remember. Anyway, but but basically it's it's this thing, this is a thing that I hate with that screenwriters do because they think they're being clever and they think they're building character and backstory. Because what they'll do is they'll get two characters to talk about an event that the audience hasn't seen. So um actually I'll talk about the Star Wars one because it's it's better. But Obi-Wan and Anakin, um, you know, George Lucas is really trying to push this. Like they like each other, really. Believe me, please. So he gives them this really banal dialogue about, you know, they've just done something. And one of them, and one of them goes, Oh, you know, um, thank goodness you rescued me this time. And then the other guy goes, Well, hey, I thought in the gun dark nest I rescued you. And then he says, and then, you know, and then the other guy goes, Oh, you know, that's not what happened in Alpha 29 or whatever. Ha ha ha. And what it's trying to do is tell the audience these people have history and they're friends and they have a relationship. To me, what it does is it shuts out the audience because it says they're privy to information you don't know about and you have no context about. And the the script writer is just trying to trying to railroad you into investing in their relationship that's built on sand. Because it means nothing. The gun darkness can you know the other thing mean nothing to you.

SPEAKER_02 19:49

Just as an as as a a side point to uh, you know, hey, don't come at me, people. But um yeah, episode one, episode two of Star Wars, that is it that is the entire script, is that kind of um Linda? Yeah, Linda, let me fill you in on everything that's you know happening in this past history and da da da da da da da.

SPEAKER_00 20:12

I can't believe you said something that almost everybody agrees with. Wow, good.

SPEAKER_02 20:17

Yeah, I thought so, but I thought because we're not stupid, let's face it.

SPEAKER_00 20:23

Yeah, no, they've those scripts have been ripped to shreds for um for a while. Oh god. Although, how curious that a trade blockade ended up destroying um an empire in real life with America, right?

SPEAKER_02 20:35

So do you think that's where he got it from?

SPEAKER_00 20:38

Yeah, Trump is Emperor Palpatine. It's Emperor Palpatine. I have the best Death Star. Everyone tells me how great my Death Star is.

SPEAKER_02 20:46

Um yeah, okay. But but not far off, I could say it's yeah, it could very well be. Um anyway. What were we saying? We're just talking about team prof.

SPEAKER_00 20:56

Talking about, yeah, but character and backstory, right? In terms of injur. That's what I was thinking of. Oh, exposition, yes.

SPEAKER_02 21:02

Yeah, episode one, episode two is just an eternity of exposition.

SPEAKER_00 21:07

Yes, okay, yeah, yeah, true. That have that has no emotional um context or any connection to the audience.

SPEAKER_02 21:14

I hope all these characters die. It's probably a thought that many of us think.

SPEAKER_00 21:17

Yeah, yeah. Okay. So in terms of so I think, yeah, there is a fine line between being on stage and going, This is true to me, and this is an in-joke with me and another um improviser, but you can also um be shutting the audience out. And I think with long form, because you are in that space with the other people, with the other improvisers for so long, is the and you need to be true to yourself, you need to be in the moment and accept what's going on. It can really rapidly, when I say disappear up its own ass, is if I start in not, I mean, and I don't I don't want to say being true to yourself is indulging yourself. I think it only becomes indulgent when you're doing it to the exclusion of. Of others and not letting people in, right? But as soon as kind of one person ends up going on that little uh tangent, you know, that's that they're kind of oh, this is true to me and this is my little thing, and then somebody else is like, Oh, yeah, I have a very specific thing that's built on that, then I think that's when long form can kind of spiral into this self-indulgent thing that the audience don't have access to.

SPEAKER_02 22:23

Yeah, okay.

SPEAKER_00 22:24

It's got I mean, it doesn't happen all the time, but I just think it's easier for that to happen in long form.

SPEAKER_02 22:30

Yeah, okay. No, I would agree with you. I think it is. I think we've seen multiple examples of it. I th I I I mmm I guess to offset that you just need to remember that you're doing it to an audience.

SPEAKER_00 22:46

Right. I mean, but that's but that's that's the um the the the razor's edge. Yeah. Is how much I mean we've kind of spoken about this already in past episodes, um, very popular episodes that have hundreds of millions of views already. But you know, um classics like uh our first episode or our second episode or even our third episode.

SPEAKER_02 23:05

Just tell it just tell them what we talked about. But but the um talking about disappearing upper ones at all. That was a classic example, ladies and gentlemen.

SPEAKER_00 23:15

True, very true. I'm guilty as charge, officer. Um so I um like, yeah, you need to be aware of the audience, but then playing to them is also a pitfall as well, right? Yeah. See, so I think that's that's the edge of I need to be true to myself and I need to stay in the moment and be with my improvisers. But also when I think about the audience, I'm kind of to a certain extent I'm ripping myself out of the moment, aren't I?

SPEAKER_01 23:43

Yeah, you you you are, but there's it's the same, it's it's yeah, you are.

SPEAKER_02 23:52

I think it's I can't remember what the term is for it, but it's it's all actors have that. We're not we're not shut in a di shut in a room and unaware of the fact that we're we're doing it's right, it's called public um uh public intimacy, public solitude, public solitude. It's a it's a uh yeah, public solitude is a is a phrase. It's when you're doing you're aware that you're on stage with this other human being, but you're also aware that you're public about it. And you're not consciously thinking about it, but there's the constant awareness of it. Um I think that um I I want you to clarify what you mean by uh being true to yourself.

SPEAKER_00 24:41

I think I think it relates to um I I think it relates to the the audience, what your relationship with the audience is, um, in terms of I could what is true to me is my instincts, is what I'm thinking and what my response is.

SPEAKER_02 25:06

And so the impulse you had in that moment that led to that response is you being true to yourself because you you haven't um changed it or yeah, or kind of thought, oh, um, is this what the audience would want?

SPEAKER_00 25:21

You know, is this what the other is this what the other improvisers would want, you know? Um I think it's really, really important to be able to access your own instincts because that's the most truth truthful you can be.

SPEAKER_02 25:37

Yeah, all right. I don't think it's a bad thing to say, is this what the other improviser would want? Yes, as I wanted to say, is this what the audience would want? I don't think they're necessarily negatives.

SPEAKER_00 25:52

I agree. I don't think it's like exclusive.

SPEAKER_02 25:54

Okay.

SPEAKER_00 25:54

So I'm I I when I teach um like word association to to my younger students, right? I say, try I try to speak before you think. But I know that they might say something, you know, rude or inappropriate. So I say, I want you to speak before you think, but I also want you to at the same time have a filter or a consideration for where you are and the people you're with. And those two things are do compete because you can't, yeah, because it requires thinking. And I've just asked them to um speak before they think. And I'm aware of that contradiction, but I don't think I think the grappling of that is interesting, and I think it's a it's grappling with it is better than just going one way or the other. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 26:46

So Yeah, I I I yeah, I think so too. I think grappling with it also teaches so teaches them how to they all work out how to work with it or work around it.

SPEAKER_00 26:58

Hmm. Like exactly actually exactly what you were saying about being aware of the audience, but being in the performance at the same time. I would be scared as an actor to be with another improviser who was so in the moment they forgot they were performing. Yeah. Right. Um, that's dangerous. That's scary to be with. I remember um I think it's uh I think it's somebody called Walt Whitcover. He they they he wrote a book um called Living on Stage. And he says he had this great idea of exactly what you were saying, is that when an actor is acting on stage, they're actually living more than um a uh a person who's not acting because they are living the uh reality of the situation, which is I'm on stage, I'm in a costume, there's audience and there's lights, but they are also living the reality of their character. So they're actually living twice in that moment and balancing both of those, of being able to be in the moment with a with a partner while also not forgetting um, you know, I need a face out to the front of the audience. Can they hear me? Am I projecting? You know, am I in the light? Um, you know, that kind of thing without it overriding you being present. Yeah, it's something you have to deal with and you have to kind of hold in contention. Um, and what I guess, yeah, exactly what you were saying when as an improviser I need to be uh listening to my instincts. And yes, you you do have to be aware and thinking about what is going to help my fellow improvisers and what does the audience want. But I suppose it's it I th I feel it's like when you deny your own instincts in favor of of those. Yeah, okay. You know? Does that make sense?

SPEAKER_02 28:51

Yes, yes, yes, yes. Uh yeah, okay.

SPEAKER_00 28:53

Is it all just a balancing act? I mean, maybe. But I feel that kind of simplifies.

SPEAKER_02 28:59

I hate I kind of hate when I don't I don't, yeah, I don't know. I hate when people But certainly when you're shutting something down, if you're sh if you're denying something because you you know that oh that's it's not appropriate or whatever, some stupid ideas come into your head. I don't know. Um you're denying something to keep people safe, for example, is not a bad thing. A bad thing. And and however, you're probably one would hope No, yeah, anyway, I won't I won't say that. But uh I think oh well done denying my own, you know, um denying myself then um I think that yeah, definitely if if being true to yourself is allowing um inspiration and presence and all of that to come through in what is uh honest for you at that point in time, then yeah, okay, I I understand what you mean.

SPEAKER_00 29:59

Yeah, that's it, yeah, that's exactly what I mean. Because I mean the the wonderful benefit of being true to yourself is you've created yourself over so many years. What an incredible reservoir to draw upon, you know, in terms of experiences and memories and emotion and whatnot. But if you've created this other person, this other persona or character that you think is, you know, I don't know, that that people will like more or will like seeing being performed more, that that that persona is gonna be quite uh flimsy and shallow, and you're not gonna have as much richness to draw upon. I think people love authenticity. I love authenticity.

SPEAKER_02 30:40

Yeah, but you can be an authentic and being character.

SPEAKER_00 30:44

Oh, sorry, I mean I mean more like if you created a kind of substitute authenticity. Okay, you know, like, hey, this is me, you know, and this is me as my base person, you know, and this is I'm always upbeating high energy, you know, and I'm gonna now play an old person, you know, and whatever, you know, and never like I think allow that vulnerability and it's like you know, you you don't have you there's people who never admit they're wrong, right? What?

SPEAKER_02 31:16

Um I don't think so, James.

SPEAKER_00 31:21

I'm right about this, Linda. Yeah, oh yeah, you know, so I think when people the people who can't admit that who never admit they're wrong, they're they've they've kind of created this yeah, this persona that really is off-putting, I think, because everybody knows that we all get things wrong, you know, from time to time, right? Yeah, so when this person is pretending they don't, we know that they're not being truthful, and there's it's it's really unendearing.

SPEAKER_02 31:51

And I think And they probably have some sort of psychosis, I would say. Yeah, probably if not, it just uh but we shouldn't judge them for that. Yes, we do. Um one of them's uh president of a first world country. Um, okay, so okay, I wanted to so improv games aren't boring, that's what you're saying.

SPEAKER_00 32:18

Oh, but did you say they were boring or bad?

SPEAKER_02 32:20

I think they're boring, they're boring, and long form improv is the way to go, was my statement.

SPEAKER_00 32:25

I I didn't even listen. I just thought it was bad instead of the word boring.

SPEAKER_02 32:28

No, boring, not bad, but boy, but we'll that's all right, we're gonna interchange this.

SPEAKER_00 32:32

No, I think we need to redo the whole episode.

SPEAKER_02 32:34

Okay. Um just rewind. Um I I kind of said this because it's it's off. I remember a period of time when everyone, particularly when everyone when long form improvisation sort of started to take off in Sydney, and everyone was like, ah, yeah, long form's so great, it's so much freedom, I love it. I want to do it forever. And uh improv and law and short form games are stupid. I hate them, and I hate theater sports, and never want to. There was kind of a little bit of uh poo-pooing of it. And uh now I you know you understand why that happened. Uh one can understand because once you find something new and it's exciting, and you want to jump on that bandwagon because you're learning so much about yourself and about what you're capable of as a performer and and as an improviser. Yeah, so absolutely uh, you know, love that, be excited about it. Um, but then that that whole kind of poo-pooing of short form, I thought, oh, it's only because you've maybe you have gotten bored with it as a performer for now. Yeah. But I would also argue that um maybe it's the way it was taught, maybe it's where you played it and the maybe any restrictions you had with um expectations from how a show would look like or whatever, what you needed to deliver. Um yeah, there's still a lot in there to be explored, and I th and I often feel personally even like I haven't explored all that's possible with short form, and that still is something that it's only boring if you if you um let it be. Yeah, yeah. It's only boring if you let it be. And the other thing that constantly interests me is that audiences fucking love it.

SPEAKER_03 34:28

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 34:31

They love you're gonna get more audiences coming to your short form show than you are coming to your long form show. Um I might be wrong, but uh I just yeah, my experience from theaters around the world is that theater sports show still has a really good attendance.

SPEAKER_00 34:50

Yeah. Um I mean, because it's so entertaining because the whole format is, you know, it's like oh this scene, you don't like it? Great, in three minutes you're gonna get a new scene, you know. And and kind of what we were saying about audience expectations and payoff and predictability, yeah, it's just so consistent, you know.

SPEAKER_02 35:11

So it doesn't need it doesn't necessarily mean that I would I would add, I don't think it needs to be predictable. And I think often we fall into this thing of whether we start to make those short form games really predictable. Yeah, and that's when it becomes boring for the players, yes, and it becomes boring for the audiences, but more so for the players. And because it's boring for you as a player, this it affects the the vibe of the show. Oh, yeah. The show the energy goes down. Um, then you do that stupid thing that we all do where it's like, oh my god, my god, the energy's gone down. Quick, quick, let's do something exciting, quick, let's do uh let's do um opera. Quick, do an opera, quick for God's sake, stop and do a musical. Let's build this audience, let's build this vibe up, yeah. And you can feel often you know, ending a show with the this positive, but it feels like a false kind of you know, pushing this shit up a hill, and we're gonna, god damn it, we're gonna end on on a positive, happy, empathy note with if it if it kills us or not. It feels a bit like that.

SPEAKER_00 36:14

But um that's why that's why I love being true to yourself and kind of being honest, you know. I think yeah, I I think I I I think the audience are incredibly savvy in that way. Is that you know I would hope so, yeah. I think so too. They can they can you can tell when people are like really pushing stuff, yeah, and really forcing things to happen. You can tell.

SPEAKER_02 36:37

And and it's not I I I would see I question that only because I am a believer. If you having done short form improv in small theatres, um you definitely feel like you're if the audience is there with you and and you can and and they're they're reading you as an actor, they know whether you're having a good time or whether you're feeling uncomfortable or whatever, whatever. Uh they feel the energy and they feed off it as you feed off their energy as well.

SPEAKER_00 37:06

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 37:07

If it's in a big theatre, like a huge, you know, rock venue or whatever, uh, it's different because you can't necessarily um it's uh I don't know, I think it's a bit different. Um it's harder to see the audience, it's harder to you can hear the laughter, you can hear the responses. But but I also think that that's deceptive because when an audience has paid a certain amount of money to come and see a show, there's a part of us that really they walk into that show wanting to like that show, any any show, theater concerts, blah blah improv, whatever. Yeah, I think we instinctively pay money to see a show because we want to go have a good time, and so we walk into that space uh already kind of convincing ourselves that we're gonna have a good time. No one walks into a a play or a show and goes, Well, I spent I spent 60 bucks on this. Uh it better be good.

SPEAKER_00 38:07

I I do that. I was I was as you were talking about that, I was like, Am I gonna be true to myself and actually say what I actually feel, or am I gonna be quiet?

SPEAKER_02 38:17

Better be good. I think there's a part of us that that kind of is really rooting for it and wants it to be it's like a like we're we've we it's gonna be good. I really hope that they don't do something to make me feel like it isn't good, is is probably what I really mean. You know, you're gonna you're gonna you're you're kicking down from there rather than having to to yeah, so so theatre sports audiences, well not theater sports, but you know, general improv audiences of short-form audience um members, um, come in wanting to really, really like the show. And so I think a lot of laughter is a response to that. Really line of like this, yeah, okay, yeah, yeah, he really, you know, whatever. That was sort of funny, but but there's a difference also in that slightly uncomfortable, um slightly forced laugh that uh that we do um yeah, then than a real kind of I'm really loving this kind of laugh.

SPEAKER_00 39:26

Well, I think I also think like large audiences are kind of like large bodies of water in terms that it takes a lot of energy to get them moving.

SPEAKER_02 39:35

Alright, so so basically I think what we've we've concluded is that um improv games are not boring.

SPEAKER_00 39:43

You're peep you're boring.

SPEAKER_02 39:45

You're boring. Um no, it's they're boring, it's too it's too general a statement. Uh we we know that, right, folks. Improv games are boring, and long form improv is the way to go. Well, it's your personal choice, what you love to do as improvised and what you're interested in in that point of time, in that point of of time. Um but you can't say that they're boring. Because if you think of the short form games are boring, it's it really speaks more to you you haven't you haven't sucked the juicy juicy goodness out of them. And and admittedly, some games have more juicy juicy goodness than others, yeah. But there's a lot of fun to be had there, and there's a lot of skill to be learnt through them. Don't ever underestimate that. Um and like I mentioned before, if you're playing the game to win the game, right? Or to be excellent at the game, then you're doing it for the wrong reasons. Play the game to do it terribly, play the game to learn something from it. Um, play the game to to fuck with it. Yeah, that's fun. Do that.

SPEAKER_00 40:55

Yeah. Yeah, I see. I I think you you said it before um really well, is that yeah, if you're finding it boring, then that's probably the way that you're approaching it.

SPEAKER_01 41:05

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 41:06

And reducing it down to a formula in order to win rather than being a great um improviser.

SPEAKER_01 41:12

Yeah. Yay!

SPEAKER_00 41:15

That sounds great.

SPEAKER_01 41:16

Okay.

SPEAKER_00 41:17

Um, well, thanks everybody for listening. Um hope that was helpful. Yeah. Interesting, even. Yeah, hopefully. Yeah. Um, if not, you can tell us uh you can write an email to us at um lindatellsjames at gmail.com. Yeah. Linda with an eye.

SPEAKER_01 41:36

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 41:37

Um two eyes, actually.

SPEAKER_02 41:39

Oh, sorry, I thought you meant my facial features. Two eyes and a nose. Linda, the name is spelt with one eye. Linda tellsjames at gmail.com. Yes, please write in um and let us know of anything of a question you might want us to discuss.

SPEAKER_00 41:53

Um Yeah, we'd love to hear an idea and an opinion um and chat about it.

SPEAKER_02 41:57

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 41:58

Well, let us know what resonates with you. Or yeah, we'd love to hear from you.

SPEAKER_01 42:02

Yes, please. Okay, I think that's it for us.

SPEAKER_00 42:04

I think so.

SPEAKER_01 42:05

Until next week, my friend.

SPEAKER_00 42:07

We'll see you all later. Thanks for listening.

SPEAKER_01 42:09

Bye, James.

SPEAKER_00 42:09

Bye, Linda. Love you. Love you. Bye.