Linda Tells James He's Wrong About Improv
Sydney based improvisers Linda Calgaro (Tiny Impro Co, Lady Fingers) and James Hartley (Upper Crass Players) fight, argue, and brawl about all things improv and James is always wrong.
Linda Tells James He's Wrong About Improv
Ep17: Should Performing Improv Feel Like Hard Work?
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Performing, whether scripted work or improvised, demands a high level of focus and effort. But if one is trying to be focused on the other performers and remain in the moment, is it still possible to have fun? In this episode, Linda and James discuss their opposite playing styles ('heart' and 'head', respectively), and how focusing on being focused can actually make you lose focus.
Also in this episode, Linda criticises James' Clarice Starling impression!
Have a question or Improv related topic you'd like to hear us discuss? Send a short email to LindaTellsJames@gmail.com
A new episode every Tuesday!
Hello everyone.
SPEAKER_05Hi, everybody.
SPEAKER_04Hi, Linda.
SPEAKER_05Welcome to another episode of Linda Tells James He's Wrong About Improv. Hi, James.
SPEAKER_04Hello. How are you going? I'm okay. How are you going? Uh pretty good, actually. Yeah. We had a nice, very nice chat just before this. You, me, and we do. Yeah.
SPEAKER_05We spend about an hour drinking tea and catching up, and then we say, Oh, we should we should do a podcast.
SPEAKER_04Yeah, we should.
SPEAKER_05We should. Okay. And here we are.
SPEAKER_04So yeah, in our podcast, we chat about improv. Um and we have a statement or a question and we discuss it. We ponder and discuss. And often I'm uh wrong.
SPEAKER_05Yeah. Yeah. Linda says, yeah, he's right. No, he isn't. That's the thing. But that's not the point. The point is that we ponder and discuss. And hopefully then we inspire those who are listening to uh have a little bit of a ponder themselves.
SPEAKER_04Yeah, absolutely. Because yeah, we don't we don't really know what we're talking about.
SPEAKER_05We don't know shit, people.
SPEAKER_04So yeah, tell us what you think, and maybe hopefully we've I don't know, yeah, made you think too. All right. Today's statement. Oh, yeah. What wait.
SPEAKER_05We do know shit. I won't say we don't know shit because then they've just you know we haven't switched off. Go away. Why am I listening to these people? They don't know shit.
SPEAKER_04I don't know what improv is.
SPEAKER_05I've never done it before. Uh anyway, we we like to um push forward topics for people to think about, and we will juggle it in our little tiny, tiny brains and spew it forth through the airwaves for you to agree or disagree with people, and feel free to write in to us and tell us if how great we are. Uh lindatellsjames at gmail.com. We have an email, lindatellsjames at gmail.com. Write in, let us know what you think. Uh let us know if you have any questions or anything you particularly want us to uh discuss. Yeah, we'd love it.
SPEAKER_04Yes, we'd love to hear some people's opinions other than our own. Yes. Uh beyond this echo chamber. Yes. But today, um, today I've got a statement. So today um my statement is um scripted performance is hard work. Improvised performance should also be hard work. If you're in the moment, you should be focused on being in the moment and not enjoying yourself or having fun.
SPEAKER_05Okay, that sounds like a good time.
SPEAKER_04Um well, I mean, is uh is running a marathon a good time? No, but it's very good for you and it's an achievement.
SPEAKER_05No, but you run a marathon because by the end of it you feel elated because of the endorphins. People don't run a marathon and then go, that was terrible. I'll make sure I'll do that again. Yeah, but at the end, right?
SPEAKER_04Yeah, yeah, at the end. So I'm saying in the moment when you're on stage in the middle of an improvised scene, you should not be enjoying yourself. No, you should be doing hard work.
SPEAKER_05No, you shouldn't be the thing is that you shouldn't be aware of any of it, whether you're enjoying yourself or doing hard work. I mean, I think when when you're enjoying yourself, you feel it because there's a little zzz energy going through you. When something like if something's fun for me or I'm you know feels playful or ridiculous, and there's this energy of my brain just goes, oh, this is delightful, you know, the little kid energy happens. Then I then I feel it. But often while I'm in a scene, I'm not thinking about I'm not constantly thinking, Am I having fun? Am I con I'm not constantly thinking, am I working hard enough? Because all of that puts you out of, as you said, the moment in the moment. Yes. All of that makes you aware of yourself, and then you start to put the focus upon yourself, and then you then you um uh shrink, you're in your head and shrink your world, basically. Yeah.
SPEAKER_04100%. So yeah, you agree. You shouldn't be having fun, you should be in the moment and focus on the other person. What do you mean it's completely different?
SPEAKER_05Because um uh well, firstly, even to say you shouldn't be having fun is putting a limit on it. What are you gonna do? Flagellate yourself. Oh my god, I'm I'm having fun. I didn't say you had to suffer.
SPEAKER_04I laughed at my own joke quickly, someone. I didn't say you had to suffer. I just said you'd can't have fun. No, if it's because it's hard, it's gotta, it should be hard work. If you're if you're if you're no no, it shouldn't be hard work.
SPEAKER_05It shouldn't, it shouldn't be hard work.
SPEAKER_04Oh, okay. Do you think scripted performance should be hard work?
SPEAKER_05I think the lead up to to doing a a stage a scripted performance on stage is hard work in that you have you know prepared for it, you've done the rehearsal, you've done the research, you've learnt your lines, etc. etc. etc. All of that is hard work. Well, it's work, we'll say. Yes, whether you find it hard or or not is is personal choice or personal you know experience. But um all of that is work. Yes. Once you're on stage, I don't think you're thinking, oh, this is hard. I don't think you're intentionally trying to make sure that you're doing hard work because to do hard work means you're going to do a good show or anything.
SPEAKER_04Oh no, I mean I I agree with that. I'm not in I'm not intentionally going up there going, I have to make this hard for myself. But there's a lot of stuff I'm doing, you know, like in that moment when I'm on stage, you know, there's like I'm thinking about a lot of things. Yeah, it's not effortless. Yes, thank you. Thank you. So you probably isn't effortless. Yes, right. So I need to be focused on the tasks I need to accomplish or and be in the moment, primarily, but having fun should not be part of that equation.
SPEAKER_05Oh no, I wouldn't say it shouldn't be.
SPEAKER_04But then isn't that aren't you just gonna end up being self-indulgent?
SPEAKER_05If you focus primarily just on having fun, yeah.
SPEAKER_04Okay, but so you think you're saying it could be a factor.
SPEAKER_05It's a factor. You're you're to I mean, I hate using this, but you are juggling a lot of balls in the air.
SPEAKER_04Or do you not like juggling?
SPEAKER_05Um no, love it. Can't do it in physically, yeah. But um, but but you're yeah, you've got lots of things that you're carrying. Yes, for sure. And that's one of them is though, make sure, make sure you're having fun. Oh now, I I say that though with the caveat that make sure you're having fun doesn't mean do everything that you sh can possibly do to make sure this is fun for you because then you're just an asshole a lot of the time. Yes, basically you're becoming selfish, yes, and and um that's not the point. No, it's a group project, folks.
SPEAKER_04Yeah, see, I mean, especially for me, I know fun if because fun has fundamentally fun has to be personal, right? Like it has to be what is fun for me. Yeah, I guess so. And if it but if it's a group project, if it's an ensemble, then how do I how do I privilege my fun?
SPEAKER_05Well, my friend, I've seen you do this, and I do this myself. Is that the fun I'm sorry about it, I'm trying to be better. The fun fun also happens when you think, oh, how can I mess with so and so? Or what can I do that would be that they're not expecting? Yes, etc. That's fun. Yes. Now you're not doing that solely for your own benefit. Um maybe a little bit. Yes. But you're also doing that because you want to delight your partner. It's isn't isn't that the case?
SPEAKER_04That's true, yes.
SPEAKER_05Because that's fun to delight your partner, and I think a lot of the time that's where we're coming from. I think it's it's not it's not as to do something, um, let's say do something silly is you know, for a moment it's fun for for me to do that silly thing, but that's not really what drives it. It to do that silly thing, what what makes it fun is I want to the audience to be uh delighted by it. I want them to love it or have fun with it or laugh at it, whatever, whatever. Or I want my scene partner to be delighted by it. More so than myself. Because it's you know, the reason why we're stage sluts is because we want other people to um yeah, fall into the bliss as well. It's not just about our own experience.
SPEAKER_04Well, it's I mean, yeah, that's that's that's really interesting. I I remember um you mentioned this um uh in a in a previous episode where you were talking about um improvising with your uh improv troop uh lady fingers, right? And you were talking about how specifically because the three of you know each other so well, is that you can afford you we were talking about like kind of what what your rehearsal process looked like, and you were talking about how um it involved a lot of um just actually chatting and talking with each other before like during this quote unquote rehearsal, right? And that was your prep preparation because you could bring stuff like that and play with it in the scenes.
SPEAKER_05Yes, if you wanted to, yeah.
SPEAKER_04Yeah, if you wanted to, and you knew that uh you were safe with these you these friends and these performers that they would be happy to play with those things, you know, or or you know, you could work it out in the in that moment. Yeah. And it was, I think, yeah, what really struck me or was interesting, uh pertinent of this conversation was you were doing that, bringing up that issue or whatever, that thing, for them, rather than obviously there is stuff for us that we that we gain from doing that, but uh but ultimately it's kind of offering a gift. Yeah, it is I'm giving you this opportunity to play with this idea or this thing, and I know that it's either dear to you or it's something that you I think you might benefit from.
SPEAKER_05So for example, just to clarify for listeners, it's so if um I'm talking to Lynette or Annie who were in Ladyfingers, and and one of them's had a really bad day at work, say, and um they they had a um work colleague who was just being mean to them or whatever, we just wasn't listening to their ideas. And so it would be sort of I mean, this is all just us and having chats before you know actually sitting getting down to doing any uh warm-ups or any work. Um and so Lynn also Lynnette will say, uh, you know, yeah, I had a really terrible day today because work colleague who never listens to me. Should it should it happen to be that in the scene there's a there's a relationship between she and I um where I'm uh it it it it doesn't even mean it doesn't I don't I don't even have to be a work colleague or just it's some sort of relationship that we have, then at some point I might think it's fun to just go, oh I'm not gonna I'm not gonna listen to any of the ideas that her character says to me.
SPEAKER_01Yeah.
SPEAKER_05Um and but I do that a because it's it would be fun for me to do that, but also because I want her to feel that little bit of delight of oh, I know where she got this from, the conversation. And this all happens in a you know in a moment in your brain. You know, she got this from the conversation we had prior to doing the show, and so oh this is this this is great. So now I'll do all the things that I you know didn't get to do today in real life. Yeah, you know, she she will read it like that, and then that's what will happen, and then that will be fun for her and be fun for me and be fun for the audience because they'll also recognize potentially recognize this situation and go, oh yeah, I've always wanted to say that or do that or whatever. Um yeah.
SPEAKER_04Yeah, I really like that concept of uh fun, right? Or play. Because, you know, if if I if I am told to have uh fun on stage when I'm performing, yeah, the f for me, the first the very first thing I think of is what do I want to do that would make me have fun rather than how do I uh engender something that is fun for the other actor or the other actors. So I mean, reframing it like that I think really helps me um not think uh in a kind of self-indulgent way as much. Um and um and yeah, and then when I think about it now, like yeah, like there are totally so many times when um uh in particular right now, what I'm thinking of is is is is little uh bits or performances we've done in um improv shows where we know another person um can do an accent or a certain character or whatever, and then creating a situation where like that character's needed, you know, or that character gets to come on. And yeah, and that totally is yeah, it totally is a gift. And it's and I I can remember, yeah, other people have um also um set me up, you know, to do things like that. Um because yeah, I was doing I was doing a dumb um um uh Jody Foster and Science Lambs impression thing. That's people just you know, oh Dr.
SPEAKER_00Lecter, you know, I you know, I I still hear the lambs at night.
SPEAKER_05Um wait, was that was that it?
SPEAKER_00Yeah, yeah, yeah.
SPEAKER_04Yes, that was that was that was you doing that was me doing um yeah, yeah, yeah.
SPEAKER_05That was me doing that people set you up to do that intentionally.
SPEAKER_04Well, I'd always I'd already shown people that I could do that and they liked it and they thought it was good. And so then they just it just then it just came up at some point during the show. But um, yeah, yeah.
SPEAKER_05So yeah, I think that's um see what I like about that, um um bless you, James, because you know that that's not a great that's not a great approximation, right? But what about that's what I like about it, it's is that they're see, it wouldn't have been as much fun if they'd set you up to doing the press impression of someone and you do that impression really well. True, yeah. I'm gonna set James up to his impression of Jodie Foster because it's not that great. And basically it's a hoot listening to him trying to do Jodie Foster. Yes, and so that's what makes that fun. Yeah, so it's kind of it's pimping, but it's not pimping because we want you to be, you know, have the spotlight and be you know successful at this. It's pimping in a way that says we want to show people how ridiculous we all are, you are, and we are, and then that's the thing that makes it fun.
SPEAKER_04Yeah, exactly.
SPEAKER_05Look at the ridiculousness of what we're doing.
SPEAKER_04Because the audience isn't gonna have a great time if it's just a bloody talent show. Yeah, it's like, no, oh, I know this guy, he can do this, and I know her, she can do this.
SPEAKER_05You feel it when you know that uh like you when when the the cast or troop are setting someone up for something and and then they're successful at it, and you feel that that's not the you just feel like I right, I think they do this, I think they do this all the time. Because so-and-so can do a really great South African accent. Yes. And so they set him up to do that. Yeah. And then yeah, it's a little, I mean, it's kind of you want to be delighted by it, but but you feel a little flat.
SPEAKER_04Well, I mean, like what you actually just the way you phrased that just then, you get the feeling that they do that all the time. That's kind of uh a great summary of that because if you do do this skill, whatever it is, all the time, you know, playing the harp or having a Scottish accent or whatever, you're not really in the moment dealing with what you're given in front of you, you're drawing on a thing that's already locked in, whatever, and brought in.
SPEAKER_05It's your safety.
SPEAKER_04Yeah, right. Whereas if it's something that you're not fully confident in or whatever, yeah, you're forced to kind of be in the moment and and yeah, make it up and and deal with what's in front of you. Yeah. And I think that's yeah, that's definitely something that everybody appreciates. Otherwise, it yeah, it also locks out the audience, right? Yeah. If it's just this endless kind of talent show or whatever about how good we can do things. Yeah. So yeah, I can see I can see now like those elements of fun that can be had that won't or and what those dangers are in terms of dipping into uh self-indulgence um or uh selfishness as well.
SPEAKER_05Um the hard work part though is is the um remembering uh you know narrative narrative or plot points or remembering that stuff, kind of balancing that stuff in the air as well as um um being open to where the story will progress to. For me, that's the hard work part. Um or looking at the overall picture of the show and what's missing. Do we need to add some lightness to this? Do we need to have a moment of of um you know, emotional catharsis or something? Yeah, what what do we need to balance to to balance the show out? So that's the hard work, but even but yeah, but even then what what you've done is as a group you've you've done all the you know you've trained so that when you get on stage it doesn't feel like hard work, it just becomes a thing that you know you need to be aware of, and and so it um you're consciously aware of it, but you don't let it overtake every your you being connected in the present in the moment and being open to the possibility of something completely different happening.
SPEAKER_04Do you feel like um focus and maintaining focus and concentration is easy or um do I feel like maintaining focus and concentration is easy?
SPEAKER_05Sorry, I didn't focus on what you were saying, so blanked out then. Um I'm thinking in terms of like effort. Um yes and no. Um yeah, I do think it's easy when you don't focus on being focused. I know, right? Yes, I know exactly what you mean. Yeah, um when you phrase it like that, when you phrase like if you put it to me that you and I make sure you've got to be focused, you know, you've got to be concentrating, right? You know, make sure you're present all the time. When when you put it to me like that, it becomes a job. Yeah, right, it becomes a chore, a thing that I have to make sure I'm doing. Am I focused? Am I present? Am I listening? Um, and even though we talk about often that there's all the the importance of all those things, it's more manageable when you're on stage when you're thinking, when I phrase it like, all I need to do is just be with my partner, make sure I've heard what they've said and respond to what they've just said. And that's it. So my focus is on on you. Um and it's not just on you, James, but it is partially on you, James. But also my focus is on, oh, what is this character trying to tell me? What could this mean? So that's just happening. It's just me trying to just me making sure that I'm accepting the gift that's coming out of your mouth and through your body, rather than thinking about in my head where it could go and what I could can do or whatever, because that will just come. Um so that keeps me focused, that keeps me present, um, and it keeps me inspired. Now, doing that, of course, that doesn't mean I'm shutting out things that could pop into my head, you know, you know, like go, oh god. Like often what will also happen is I I'll go, oh shit, I'm not moving my arms, I'm just standing here. So then at that point I will just still focus on you, but I'll walk across stage and uh pick up a glass of water or pour myself something or open a drawer or basically what I will often do is walk across stage, move my hands, and then just let my hands do something until I figure out what it is. Yes, you know, arrange flowers in a vase. Um so that's the kind of work that because it shifts me out of being just looking at you, but but it isn't work because it just means I'm you know it's a moment. If that makes sense, yeah.
SPEAKER_04I mean, no, it it it it does, and I'm I'm I'm I'm curious about um picking between um our brains, right? Because for me, um yeah, I yeah, focus is effort, but yeah, if you're foc if you're trying to focus on focus itself, you won't you'll be out of the moment.
SPEAKER_05Yeah, it's like meditating and then saying, I must steal my mind, I must still No ideas, no ideas. You know, it's it doesn't work.
SPEAKER_04Yes, yeah, exactly. It's uh it's so aiming it out at um the other actor and then letting that be your focus, then that hones in that that focus and concentration. But I guess like because while I'm running that and I am focused on the other person, if I want to remain focused, I I feel like I need to actively silence the other thoughts.
SPEAKER_05Yeah, okay.
SPEAKER_04So you know, I uh you know, I I will I yeah, I totally will get stuff like, oh, I haven't moved my body and and I can solve that easily. But there are other things kind of in the back of my head about Yeah, that I'm like, okay, what oh, they just brought up this thing. Then I feel like I've got like 10 different options on how to go with that offer. Yeah. And then figuring out, okay, which ones are more optimal. And by the time I've kind of figured that out, they've already said a second sentence, and then I'm now on that. And yeah, for me, about maintaining that level of focus and kind of trying to fight the that those thoughts about all the other options where it could go, that for me is a lot of effort, you know. Um and I can't really like yeah, for me it's not I don't have a brain space for fun at that point.
SPEAKER_05So when when you feel like there are you're checking out your options and where you know it could looking at where it could go and which one you want to go with, what is the decide of you?
SPEAKER_04Well, I mean uh I I don't know, I I'm not sure. It's too late because by the time you decide to get it. Yeah, it's kind of too late, but it's like I guess if uh you know, if they go, if you know, if they go, oh, um, oh, you know, uh uh I love this beach Gerald, then brain is like, okay, relationship, who are we to each other, right? So I I need I can name this person, I should name this person. What name can I give? It doesn't really matter. I'll say whatever name, it's fine, I don't have to think about that. But who are they to me, you know, and kind of running through those relationships, um, which would be would be the most interesting? Which one have we kind of not done yet so far? Instead of just repeating another thing we've already got. Gotcha. Okay.
SPEAKER_05You know, and yeah, gotcha.
SPEAKER_04Yeah, and and and and then if we are I don't know, maybe and then yeah, that's probably the most I could think of at that point. But you know, um, and and and then once I figured it out.
SPEAKER_05Is it yeah, okay. See, that's not how my brain works at all. But um, but I know I know I've been I have been you, I have been that. Um there is a s you have to kind of just respond and then let that response be the thing that figures it out rather than me consciously trying to rather than me going, oh I figured it out, here's my response. I by I just go straight into here's my response, and then I figure out who we are. It's a nice speech, Gerald. And I'm thinking, oh yes, I've been meaning to bring you here for for a long time.
SPEAKER_04Yeah, yeah, yeah.
SPEAKER_05Yeah, no, no, I and then it's like, well, that could go either way, and then now how you respond to that is gonna tell me more about who we are.
SPEAKER_01Do you know what I mean?
SPEAKER_05So rather than figuring it out and then playing, oh right, we're we're brothers or we're lovers, and now I know that, and now I'm gonna play it like that. It's don't maybe don't know, um, and it will be clear because it will be clear pretty soon.
SPEAKER_04But also isn't that but isn't that people not making strong offers to each other if you're just kind of feeling out what's happening?
SPEAKER_05Well, you um not necessarily. Um uh it's a lovely beach, Gerald. You're right. Uh sorry, Hank or whatever. Um I've been meaning to bring you here for a long time. What does that say to you?
SPEAKER_04Um it says that they've been in a the individual and they've known each other for a very long time, um but not enough that Right.
SPEAKER_05So but we don't know if they're related as if they're siblings or if they're lovers, right? Yes. What would your response be? It's been a long time. I've been meaning to bring you here for for a long time, Hank. So that's the thing. Then you get to choose. Your my partner then gets to say, um uh, yes, it's you know, we haven't we've been putting off, you know, catching up for so long or whatever. All right, we're friends. Um uh we've um I don't know, but the first thing that comes out of my partner's mouth will uh even if it doesn't tell me directly who we are, my response, I've got a then I've got a choice. Like, oh, where do I want to go? Okay, here. So my my response then will tell them or the audience. I I guess what I'm trying to get at is that's for me that's more satisfying than saying, uh, thank you so much for coming to the beach with me, Harry. I've been meaning to get you alone for so long because I've always had a crush on you, and now is the time for me to reveal that to you. Do you know what I mean? It's so much better. I would refer that. Well, okay. I mean, I get that. I love I love this. I love this. I get that, but I just think front loading a scene is just like, oh Jesus, kill me. But then where do you get to go to so many?
SPEAKER_04I I I also I mean, look, I love I don't know.
SPEAKER_05I like to tease the audience. I like the audience to think um of possibility because that's the thing. They're all they're watching you and they're thinking, oh, who are they? Oh, oh, where's this gonna go? I I like that. I like making and I know there are people who disagree with that, but I like that because I think it it makes the audience it they're intrigued, they lean forward on their seats because if they find you both engaging, and if they feel the energy also of the performers not knowing exactly where they're going and not laying it all out in front of you, yeah, they're even more intrigued because they're gonna they're also thinking, how what are these two guys gonna do with this scene? As well as trying to as well as being invested in the scene and the characters, right? So they lean forward and they listen. But if you front-load everything, it's like, oh well, I'll lean back because you just told me everything. You told me who you are and why you're here and what's potentially gonna happen. At some point, something's gonna, there's gonna be a twist, hopefully, but it's it's less, it doesn't, it doesn't pull them in as much. And I and I think also as a player, perhaps because of my experience, I don't want to be told. I don't want you to tell me who who I am to you, what's gonna happen.
SPEAKER_04Yeah, no, that's interesting. I mean, like, I no, I I totally agree. I mean, I definitely think, I mean, for me, it's almost just it's it's almost like two different flavors. I actually I can't prefer one over the other. Because yeah, one of them is very, really uh the the the kind of very gently feeling it out is almost like a game of like um you're not so slow with I mean that that you know you you're dragging it along, but you're just not just well, yeah, no, you know, yeah, no, no. I I actually agree. I mean, but it's yeah, it's the discovery, right?
SPEAKER_05Yeah, because um because if you haven't already sussed it out, folks, I'm not big on the say the first three lines of the scene, say it's come on stage, give me your who, what, where.
SPEAKER_01Yeah.
SPEAKER_05Fuck off. Yeah, don't give me that. Don't come on stage and give me the who, what, where. Okay, just don't. There's nothing about that that delights me.
SPEAKER_04Well, I I like that because it's like, well, okay, great. We know everything now. Where are you gonna go from there? That's what that's what I really like about that front loading of just like going straight in for the jugular because then you've got okay, now what?
SPEAKER_05You know, yeah, I gotta say, I mean, yeah, okay. So that obviously that happens. My instinct is um once we've established the who are what we're it is, you're right. You still can be playful and you can still see where you go from there. My instinct though is to mess with it completely. But look, I look, I mean, like that's where you think we're going. Yeah. Oh, okay. Let's see if it is. But that's just me having fun with you.
SPEAKER_04Yeah, but I mean, but that's kind of almost the point, right? Is to it well, I don't know. I mean, it depends on who the player is, I suppose. But like, yeah, if you front load a scene, I mean, I don't want it to stay that way. You know what I mean? I don't yeah.
SPEAKER_05Yeah, I don't yeah. I don't want the okay, I think I think occasionally peppering a show with that is fine, or peppering your play with that is fine, but I don't want that to be everything. I don't want I don't like it being taught that that is the way you start every scene. That's the way you start a scene. For a scene to start strongly, this is what you must do. I hate that. Yeah, yeah. I think if uh yeah, I think it also is really damaging because it makes you think because you can see people on the sidelines trying to figure out how what they're gonna say to enter a scene to make to establish that. Or okay, it it can put you in the head in your head in terms of the scene, right? And that's I'm thinking, no, I don't even in teaching, I don't want someone to feel that even before they've stepped on stage. I want them to step on stage and feel like they do not have to have all the answers and they can step on stage and something wonderful is gonna happen just because they looked at their partner and they just said the first thing that came into their head. I you know, I don't want them to feel that fear at the side on the sidelines.
SPEAKER_04Having to know everything at the very front.
SPEAKER_05Because then what immediately happens is you then start to question, oh shit, did I did I do it right? Was that strong enough?
SPEAKER_04Where you know I yeah, I definitely think as a player, I I think it it's it it is it is a lot of fun of uh yeah, really listening precisely to the other actor and discovering what is happening together. That's very satisfying and fun as well. But also, I would have to say, I don't think I could also watch a show that every scene started out with two actors that were discover gently discovering every time. Because I then I can I know okay, these guys are just feeling it out every time. You know what I mean?
SPEAKER_05Yeah, it doesn't happen that way though. No, no.
SPEAKER_04Well, it's more what's the difference?
SPEAKER_05Because we say, I mean, we can s so you're unpacking. We'll say we'll say you're unpacking. It's just but it doesn't mean it's not it's not slow and it's fast. Well, I mean 'cause you make choices, you have to make a choice. You're still making you know, so you're still accepting and um extending.
SPEAKER_04But in that Gerald Beach thing one we just did, yes, that to me it felt very slow in terms of like we haven't warmed up, you know. But like you know, but like be you know, like but but like beach and gerald having been there for a long time.
SPEAKER_05By line three, yeah, I would say by the third line, you you both have an idea of who you are and why you're there. Um then in line four and five or whatever, you have a choice whether to go down that route route or just then sort of kind of mess with it.
SPEAKER_04I see, I see, I see, I see. Okay, right, right, right.
SPEAKER_05But it happens quickly unless you're doing a show and unless you want to do something different for one scene. Yeah, yeah. Which which you know we've also done because it's just just for shits and geels, because it'll be fun and because the audience is up for it. Or whatever. But yeah, it's not every scene, yeah. It ha it's it's you know, it's fast in the slow lane. I gotta tell you, it is. It's fast, yeah, it is. Things happen you're in control of the speed, so you you're not gonna be uh a slave to to slow progress of a narrative unless you want to be.
SPEAKER_04You know, yeah, true. I mean, like, I suppose I would also say that it also won't really feel slow because as soon as you're acting on stage, you're already imbuing, whether you know what the relationship is or not, you've already you are currently imbuing it with who you are or how you're performing. So that unveiling isn't because it isn't a re it it isn't a reveal of the characters, they already know who they are to each other. They're not going to suddenly change their uh attitude towards each other, right? It's already been embedded since the very beginning.
SPEAKER_05Yeah.
SPEAKER_04So yeah, I can see it that way as well.
SPEAKER_05Sometimes, too, I also don't want to tell the audience exactly who we are. I don't want to tell an audience if we're a married couple or if if we're just friends. Because I don't think that's the important part of the scene. The important part of the scene is how we're engaging with each other, right? Yeah, whether we're work colleagues or a couple or whatever, or friends. Uh what's important is how we're engaging with each other. And so I I've done scenes like and then the scenes have felt really, really good because we're just, you know, say, for example, we're rivals or or or you know, I I really annoy this guy, and he's just we're just doing this scene where he's just constantly annoyed with everything I do, and and it resolves in some way, or whatever. It ends, the scene ends. Um, and but we've never said what our relationship is, but but the audience knows what we're like when we're together, right? That's what's important to me. And the lovely thing is that when you times that that's happened, you also go out into the you know, to listen to people in the bar afterwards talking, and people you will come up to you and uh sometimes they'll ask you who you were, or they'll tell you who they think you were. Yeah, and they're all right. Yeah, it's like, oh my god, that's just like my relationship with my brother. Yeah, da da da. It's like, oh yeah, my husband and I would do that the other day, and whatever. And and I'm not gonna say, Oh, you're wrong. So we're actually work colleagues because it doesn't matter. Yes, yes. It's like, yep, we're you're absolutely right. Because that interaction happens in all types of relationships. That's more interesting to me. I really I'm gonna I would also argue that I doubt an audience goes, Well, you know, I have I like the way they play that scene, but I that scene was terrible because I did not know who they were. I did not know who they were. And we as improvisers sometimes say that. It's like, oh my god. When we're watching a show, we're going, oh, they haven't said they haven't established who they are to each other.
SPEAKER_01Yeah.
SPEAKER_05And I wonder whether that's just because someone's told us that's what we should do. And so we're thinking, well, they're not playing by the improv rules. Um, or or simply that just that those two players haven't haven't engaged us enough yet. They haven't really invested in in in those two characters in the relationship enough yet or something to bring us in. Yeah. But it's not usually, you know, yeah. I don't I don't think it's a thing that's a deal breaker in in determining whether a scene is going to be successful, per se.
SPEAKER_04I think though, would would you say that I I wonder if that whole like front loading thing, ticking the boxes of who, what, when, where, whatever, is more of like a training wheels thing. Yeah. You know, I think because in order to come on stage with nothing and be uh happy to play with another actor who also doesn't uh has nothing, I think it takes experience and confidence, and it's not something that I think I could just throw at all new, right? Yeah. So I yeah.
SPEAKER_05I guess so as long as it like as I said before, it doesn't keep you stuck in your head. Yes. And um as long as it is fun. For me, it wasn't fun, so I knew that I had to find another way to start a scene.
SPEAKER_04Um yeah. You shouldn't be abandoning things just because you don't find them fun.
SPEAKER_05It was um yeah, it was hard work. It felt fake. I know that's weird because you know we're acting in so we really are in a fake world, but it felt so wrong and fake for for me. I I can't exactly say why. Whether it's just because I'm not a cerebral, I'm not a head player, I'm a heart player.
SPEAKER_04Um yeah, to me, yeah, my whole like performance- You're a head player. Yeah, my whole performance like mindset is emotions aren't can't be trusted, you know. You know, like like yeah, no, seriously, like it's just and that's kind of where I can see this, where the statement came from.
SPEAKER_05I think that's an entry point though. I don't think that's the way you play a whole scene. I my entry point is more about oh, what's how what's the relationship, what's our feeling? How do I feel about this person? Or what's what's what feeling am I getting? Um what emotion am I getting from their face? Or that that's my entry point, but it but it doesn't mean I'm not coming up with smart ass things because I'm you know I am a smart ass by nature. Um so there is thinking involved, but it just that's my that's makes me relax and feel more I'm more open to things because that's because I play um I'm an emotional player rather than a thinky thinky words player as it were. I know I mean that's just the way I work, you know.
SPEAKER_04Yes.
SPEAKER_05I am in life. So um no, um you know nothing one of them isn't better than the other. It's just is the way that's the James thing. This is the Linda thing. Yeah, yeah. And the beautiful thing is that when they are on stage together, we get to see the mix of of all of that. Yeah. You don't want to you don't want to cast as just all of heart players.
SPEAKER_01Yeah.
SPEAKER_05I mean, Christ. And you don't want to cast. Yeah, there'd be a lot of drinking after that show. Everyone just to emotionally relax. Yeah, yeah, you don't want to cast. Well, that's often what happens too. I I feel like there's a lot of head players that get lumped together because like sees like and they go, Oh, let's do a show together, it'll be great. Um, and it probably is great, but I but I find that when I sit and I've seen a lot of head players doing you know games or whatever, I I hurt. My my brain hurts, my heart hurts, everything hurts because it's it's just been too too much clever and not enough time to let the clever settle and actually be give it space, give space for something else. Yeah, you know what I mean?
SPEAKER_04Oh, a hundred percent.
SPEAKER_05Yeah, there's so much clever happening, it's like being fed a lot of sugar, and you're okay. Can we just have a break now and just someone just give me a moment of pathos or something?
SPEAKER_04Yeah, yeah. I mean, yeah, I mean, I I I my main contention has always been that um improv uh what got got kind of taken over by uh nerds, you know. Improv with the true love nerds of theater. Yeah, we are nerds and we do love them, but the problem was when they thought that this is our little area and what we can monopolize it, and then it became a systems-based approach to improv, purely systems, you know. You start with the who, what, when, where by the second minute you do this, and then da-da-da. You know, and then that for me is and then people re I think nerds, yeah, and we would love nerds, so I'm not using it pejoratively, I suppose, but nerds learned that they can be charming and funny if they follow the system. So then it became this whole system, and people fell into the trap of well, I I'm here to be charming and funny, and I know that this thing was consistent, so I'm just gonna do this thing over and over. And it's not an actual being in the moment, it's not an actual um, yeah, it's very hard for real kind of emotion or empathy or pathos to arise. Um, and it's and at its worst, and it's not always like this at all, but at its worst, it does become a kind of who can out cleverest the out of the person. And it's like, okay.
SPEAKER_05And then that goes back to what we were talking about a couple of weeks ago, which is that what you've done is you've you've made improv safe for exactly.
SPEAKER_04You've made it safe and predictable. Yeah. And formulaic.
SPEAKER_05Yeah. Um, which is not what you want improv to be. It's supposed to hopefully develop, help you develop other things, which is um you know how to confront the unknown.
SPEAKER_04Absolutely. And eventually that world does one run dry. So it does. You know, um, it's not sustainable.
SPEAKER_05So there. So nerdy you nerds. Nerdy you. Um, yeah, yeah, that's interesting.
SPEAKER_04Literally an hour ago, we were talking, I was talking about the difference between celluloid and digital, and like, you know, like, yeah, I'm a I'm a total nerd. I mean, and I love Christopher Nolan films, and they are the nerdiest, like, lacking of emotion, you know, pure systems kind of analytical, you know, films you could think of.
SPEAKER_05True. And you've also said that you like to get on stage and and you know, do the who, what, where.
SPEAKER_04Yeah, yeah, for sure. It's very comforting. So, you know. Yeah. It's very safe.
SPEAKER_05So maybe you're one of the people you've just been dissing.
SPEAKER_04I am. That's true. Every what is it? Every confession is a confession or whatever.
SPEAKER_05Every accusation is a confession, every accusation is confession. Right. Oh, right.
SPEAKER_04Every accusation is confession. So I'm like, oh, these nerd people. Yeah. I'm really I'm yeah, self-hating. Thanks, everyone.
SPEAKER_05On that note, um, yeah, yeah, that was good. That was a very interesting discussion, James.
SPEAKER_04Yeah, no, that was great. Thanks, Linda. Um thanks everyone for listening. Um, yeah, please uh leave us a review uh or rating on any um podcast sites you get our podcasts from.
SPEAKER_05Um yeah, or a comment on our Facebook. I've been pretty slack, I've got to say, on the publicity, folks. I have. That's all right. But you you you don't need to know that because you're listening. Yeah, exactly. People who aren't listening who I need to apologize to.
SPEAKER_04But yeah, on Facebook we're um Linda Tells James. Um we've already and then we've also got our email.
SPEAKER_05Yes, at Lind Lindatells James at gmail.com. Um also if you have uh if you need a little bit of a you know solution to a problem, then send us a dear and james email um and we'll dish out potentially helpful solutions and advice if you have any issues with your own improv.
SPEAKER_04Um Yeah, I'd love to hear, yeah, what issues are people coming up against? Yeah, what are they seeing in their community? Or you know, I'd love to be able to think about stuff like that.
SPEAKER_05Let us help you because you know we know some stuff. Yeah.
SPEAKER_04And maybe by nutting it out we can, you know, learn from each other.
SPEAKER_05So yeah. Cool. Nice.
SPEAKER_04Great. All right, well, we'll see you all next time.
SPEAKER_05Yeah.
SPEAKER_04Um, yeah.
SPEAKER_05Bye, Jay.
SPEAKER_04Bye.
SPEAKER_05I love you, bye.