Much Much
Much Much is a faith-centered podcast offering honest, heartfelt conversations about the beauty and complexity of everyday life. At its core, Much Much is rooted in Luke 12:48: “From everyone who has been given much, much will be required.” It’s a call to live from a place of abundance, to step boldly into our purpose, and to pursue our calling—together. 🤍
Much Much
What Truly Satisfies - Episode 8
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Join Afton & Jesse as they continue making their way through Ecclesiastes
I'm so excited to be here. So we always start out each episode. I'm gonna say season because we've been talking about seasons for what the last two weeks. Yeah. Still talking about seasons. Um, our much much moment. So I want to know what your much much moment is this week. I'm changing mine real quick.
SPEAKER_00I'll use that one for another episode. Okay. My much much moment is we spent what 20 minutes trying to figure out our audio. Oh, that's good. So I had a little epiphany after. So this last, if you listen to the last two episodes, the audio's terrible, and I'm so sorry. Um, we have been really struggling with audio. So I have this recording device that we have been using, and it has done us dirty several times. But this last time I had me mostly. Yeah, yeah. You but this last time there were no audio clips, it didn't record anything, and I'm like, okay, so I guess we're gonna have to use the video camera audio, but unfortunately, we're now running an air conditioner, so it was really loud, and it was it's very bad. I'm so sorry. And Afton was upset, I was upset too. But I'm like, hey, we're only on episode seven. It just happens. I'm like a it's fine person, it's like it's no big deal. Like when I forgot to cut out she also left episode.
SPEAKER_01Whenever you hear it cut it, it means cut it. So I'm listening and I'm like, why didn't you cut all this out? I'm pretty sure she did it just to just to make me cringe, anyways.
SPEAKER_00I was like, it's funny.
SPEAKER_01The good news is people were listening to us because they said they had some feedback about our audio. So kudos to everyone listening out there. They love you.
SPEAKER_00Thank you. I hope you can hear loud and clear now. And I hope this is the end of it. I had to do like brainstorming with my husband. I'm like, why is this not working? So, well, crossing our fingers, hoping we got it solved. But that is my much mush moment. So, what is yours?
SPEAKER_01My much mush moment is my husband totally pulled off a surprise for me last night, a surprise birthday party, and I don't really like surprises, actually. I'm probably never been truly surprised unless it's like by something planned, should I say.
SPEAKER_00Casey gets shout-out, it's gets a shout-out every episode. Yeah, he really is it really was so sweet. He like had this whole group chat of like he got all of her friends to send pictures, to write letters. He put a lot of work, a lot of effort into this surprise party, and um, I unfortunately was not able to be there, but yeah, she's pretty much cut.
SPEAKER_01I'm just kidding. She's very easy.
SPEAKER_00She got in my car earlier and she's like, ma'am.
SPEAKER_01So sorry. But that's my much much moment. That's awesome. So, after it's turning 40.
SPEAKER_00We don't have to say that.
SPEAKER_01Just kidding. Cut.
unknownI'm just kidding.
SPEAKER_00It's definitely not getting cut. That's nothing to me.
SPEAKER_01Age is just a number.
SPEAKER_00Alright, so we are kind of wrapping up Ecclesiastes. We've been studying Ecclesiastes for a couple months now because by the time we put an episode out, it's it's been a minute for us going through Ecclesiastes.
SPEAKER_01We um yeah, it's been if you say a couple months, but yeah, you're right. Yeah. Yeah, but it's been so good. Yeah. And we are kind of, I do still feel like I still feel like we have so much more to cover, but we're doing it in such a small time. But I think that there's a lot to be said about what we have on the today's episode. I'm really excited to dive in. Yes.
SPEAKER_00So today we're gonna focus on Ecclesiastes four through nine. Um, and it kind of has similar similar themes to chapters one through three, where Solomon's really talking about the limitations of wealth and of possessions and pleasure and wisdom and what we can do in our own human ability. Um and I love this quote as I was studying this scripture. Um, this quote stuck out to me: the more a man possesses, the more conscious he becomes of the vanity of it all. And I was like, that just kind of like with a little bow, like wraps up Ecclesiastes for me because so much of what Solomon's talked about is just like dissecting every aspect of life under the sun without an eternal aspect and saying, like, what's the point of it all? And the more that you have, the more you realize like it's all just vanity, it's all meaningless, and that's what the whole point of Ecclesiastes is really trying to prove. And I love that.
SPEAKER_01And it's not just when you say vanity, it's like that really actually speaks to me because I feel like I can get that way with like personally, my like myself, especially you know, getting older, which I mean I know a lot of you are older and younger, whoever whatever are watching, but even like possessing more like for yourself. I don't think it's necessarily which we'll get into that a bad thing, but it can become a bad thing, it can become an idol, it can become something that you're obsessed with, or something that you look in the mirror and you're like, Oh, and I think of that whenever I whenever I you're talking about that, it makes me think, oh, yeah, check yourself.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, it's very easy to get like that um quote keeping up with the Joneses comparison, it's very easy to like, oh, so-and-so got a new vehicle. That's really nice. I'd love a new vehicle, or you know, whatever it may be, so-and-so got a promotion, or they're doing this now, and it's so easy to be entangled by this like sense of jealousy, really, like not being content with what you have and what you're doing and where God has placed you, and always looking at everybody else. Right. Yeah, I love that.
SPEAKER_01So, why do people believe the next promotion purchase or accomplishment will satisf finally satisfy them? And for me, it goes straight to not necessarily we were talking about this earlier, not necessarily to purchases, but I can see that in my life as well. But when I really dig deep into like my like think about my heart in this, it's comes, it becomes ministry and like which is my job, which is so it's kind of hard that it it's not really a job, but it is or my photography, or um my raising a raising my kids, whatever that might be, what what is it, but I can say speak to in ministry. It's like I am a seven, you are a three, really big on the Enneagram, so I'm always dreaming, and I love to dream big, and then whenever I hit that achievement, or whenever I hit that um next promotion or or whatever it might be, then it's like okay, what's next? It's always what's next. Um if I could just lead this, or if I could just if more people came to that, or if um I got asked to do this more, or whatever it might be, if my event wasn't successful, like to me it's like okay, what's the next thing? And so um none of those desires, like I said, are are wrong. Yeah, but wanting to and wanting to be effective for God's kingdom obviously is a good thing, yeah, right? But it's it reminds us that even good work, like even doing good work for God, um, can't carry the weight of our identity. Yeah, yeah, and so I think that's important that we know that only God can and not ourselves. So, like a question that I I can ask myself if nothing about what and you can ask yourself this, if nothing in uh in your position that you're in right now, or the place in your life where you're at right now, if nothing changed, if it just stayed the same, you had no greater recognition, you had no more influence, would would I would you still believe that God is pleased with your faithfulness? And it's just something to ask yourself, because then you're not putting your identity in what's next. Yeah. But you're putting your identity in what God is has like has for you and not what you want so badly or have in your minds, your mindset upon.
SPEAKER_00That's a great question, because being a three, I'm a doer. And I love the accolades that come along with that. And throughout like my career, that has been like an un like an overarching theme of what's next, what's my next promotion, what can I learn, when can I switch roles? How do I climb the ladder? And that's something that I will struggle with just in my human flesh, because I want to achieve the things and I want to have the recognition for doing big things. Um, but when it comes to ministry, it's that's a great question to check your gut because it's like, are you doing things for the applause or are you doing things for God? Like truly out of a heart to serve. And he might be asking you, for example, this morning in kids' church, I cleaned up puke off of the bathroom floor. That's not a great job. I was not gonna get any accolades or praise for that, but God needs me to serve in kids' ministry, and so if that's what I have to be doing today so that other people can attend service and then they can leave their kids so that they can go to service, then that's what you do. So ministry is a good way to kind of have some of that pulled out because you do a lot behind the scenes without people seeing, and you don't get you know it's not a corporate ladder you can climb, it is literally just and I think that's in itself, that's probably why it is a little bit harder because it's it's such a uh servant parted thing, like it's just it's it's you're just pouring yourself out.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, absolutely. Yeah, but I also like that this that something I wrote down here was that it doesn't mean that I have to stop dreaming or pursuing or stop pursuing that excellence, it means you hold those dreams with open hands, and that's something I've really had to learn over the last 13 years is like okay, if I have my hands closed, God can't do anything. But when I have my hands open, there's so much more for him that I can from that he wants for me that I could ever even imagine. And I tend to hold my hands closed so much more than I like to say.
SPEAKER_00That's a really beautiful example though, because even when you're like given something, it may only be yours for a little while. Yeah. And then it may be like, okay, I'm calling you to this now, and you've got to let go of this that you've poured years of your heart into because it's time for somebody else to take on that role.
SPEAKER_01And it's it reminds me a little bit too of like fostering a child. Yeah. You know, like here, I'm gonna give you this child for a little bit, yeah, but then I don't know what's gonna happen. Here you go. Yeah, and that's like very difficult because you have to put all your trust in God. You don't have a choice in that matter. And so I mean, I can I feel that.
SPEAKER_00Like it's like I see that in people, like so, so good. I love this. Um, while we're on this question still, in Ecclesiastes 4, verse 6, he says, Better to have one handful with quietness than two handfuls with hard work and chasing the wind. And he's really just reminding you that it's better to be content with what you have than to always be grasping at what's next and what what else could I be doing. Yeah, it's just a really great example.
SPEAKER_01Like I grew up, my mom was always my mom is a very content person, and so I learned that a lot. Like I learned she was always like, you just need to be content with what you have. I'm sure a lot of people grew up that way. You need to be content, and of course, I tell my kids that. Well, you need to be content, and uh why while I think it's okay to be content, but I also think it's okay to want to achieve more in a realistic way, like in a way that got for if if it's coming from God and not just from me. But whenever I start to think, when I whenever I feel my flesh rise up with wanting this or doing this, and I can tell that it's when if it's something like that's overwhelming you, you most doubt that most of the time that's going to be not from God. Yeah, absolutely. And so when that like it's almost like it's like a presence over you, and I have to like immediately think back, like, okay, I have this, this, this, and it's also good just to like write down everything you have. Yeah. And then look over it and be like, okay, this is why am I not content with what I have.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, you know what I mean. I like doing like window shopping. I know that used to be like a like a real thing, but my window shopping now is like I'll see something I really like and I'll just add it to my Amazon cart, and it'll stay there for a week, a month, and eventually, usually what I do is I'm like, I don't actually really need that, and I'll put it on like save for later, and then sometimes it just gets deleted off of there. But initially I'm always like, Oh, that's so cute, or I I need this, and I'll go add it, and then I'm like, I just let it sit there for a while to be like, okay, if I come back to this in a week, and I'm like, no, actually, I still really need that or want that, then maybe I'll get it, but usually it ends up getting taken back out of the cards, and like you don't actually need that.
SPEAKER_01Save it for later, like that's so good. Yeah, and then you could look back. Have you ever looked back and like, why did I ever want that? Yeah, what was I gonna use that for? Yes, yes. In that time, it's all a mindset. Yes, it's so good. Okay, can ambition and contentment coexist?
SPEAKER_00This is a really good one, especially for a three, because I am very ambitious. I'm very ambitious in all the things that I do. Um sometimes ambition is driven by envy, as in like if I just got the next promotion, I would have the authority that I want, or the pay scale that I want. Um so that's like one side of it, but then it's also like, oh, if I get this new thing, then I'm as good as Afton, or so I feel like a lot of it is fueled from envy, fueled from being jealous, and always having this insatiable like desire for more and more and more so good instead of it being focused on like a noble thing.
SPEAKER_01Yeah. I s I my take on it is yes, but only when ambition is submitted to God. Oh, that's good. Um I think contentment doesn't mean you have you've stopped growing, it just means that you've stopped believing that growth is what gives you value.
SPEAKER_00Uh yeah, yeah.
SPEAKER_01And for those of me like me that are that work in ministry, it's gonna easily be challenging because we're offer often pursuing good things. Even Jesse, like she's not in ministry, but she's I I know her, she's pursuing good things. Um and so those are worthy desires, but the question is, am I ambitious? The deeper question is what happens in my heart if God says not yet or not this way.
SPEAKER_00Yeah.
SPEAKER_01Like, is are we submitted to God? Is our ambition submitted to God? And a lot of times, you know, and I also put Paul captures this balance beautifully in Philippians 4, 11 through 13. He learned to be content in plenty and in need. Yet he also spent his life tirelessly planning churches and preaching the gospel. He was deeply ambitious for God's kingdom while remaining content in Christ, which it's funny because we talked about this in service today. But Paul is a great like example of this because he had a he was, I mean, he was ambitious to God in the most awesome ways. I mean, he was in prison, he was, you know, he was doing things that if we thought we could do that today, like, can you imagine? No. And so he's such an example of what it looks like and to be ambitious and and submitted to God. And it's a great way to like, if you do struggle with that, go read about Paul because it will make you really it'll make you question your motives.
SPEAKER_00For sure. So I have it reminds me too, like, I have there's um a really good friend of mine who I work with, um, who is also a really good like Christian example. So sometimes at work I'll be like, I need you to talk me off a cliff, vice versa. Um, but he had been putting in for like a supervisor job, and he's he's on days currently, and he has four children, and his wife stays at home with them, and he keeps putting on putting in for these supervisor jobs, and he's not getting them, and it's been like multiple times. And he was putting in for a night supervisor job, and I'm like, is this really gonna make you happy? Like to make X amount more money a year. You're gonna be on nights, you're gonna miss your kids' events, you're not gonna be able to go to church on Wednesdays like you like doing. He does like suffer church on Wednesdays. I'm like, all of the stuff that you're giving up for what? For for more money, you can find another way to make more money. You're not struggling to make things meet. And he continues to put in for these roles. And I said, you know what? Eventually you keep doing it, God keeps closing the door. I said, eventually God's just gonna let you have it and see that you should have been content with what you had. And now, be because of free will, you still have choices that God allows you to make. If He's closed the door for you X amount of times, but in your heart you're still wanting more and more and more, and He lets you have it. I feel like you're gonna regret giving up what you have now, which is a great work-life balance. Time for you to have a farm and to do other things and just spend quality time with your family to step into this role that he really doesn't have for you. And you're gonna see that you should have just been content with what you had. And he eventually, on this last time, pulled his application back out. And he's like, You're right, I'm he's gonna eventually say yes, and it's not gonna be what I want. And I'm like, I'm just telling you, it's not always about a paycheck, right? It's not, that's so good.
SPEAKER_01What role do suffering and disappointment play in developing wisdom?
SPEAKER_00This is such a hard topic that Solomon goes into, and it's hard because we'll never fully understand God's purposes, we'll never fully understand everything that God does, but we have to trust God even when it is difficult. And that's the thing that it gets very hard to like when you see the wicked prevailing and you see the good people suffering, and you're wondering why, like, why would God allow this to happen? Right, you still have to trust God. Even in the difficult situations. And I feel like that's where that wisdom comes from is that when you're faced with um sorrow and despair and you know these really, really hard seasons, and you learn truly to trust in God and his plan, not knowing the answer, not knowing his purpose, but you choose, like, I'm gonna trust God no matter what, that's where that wisdom comes from. That I feel like Solomon's talking about here is it's more than just a surface level of like, why would this happen? And this isn't fair, and life is unfair. He's like, it's this wisdom that you gain from having perspective, from having like these seasons that you walk through that aren't always roses and rainbows. It's learning from all of this. Just um, I also thought about like Romans um 5, 3 through 4. Suffering produces perseverance, perseverance produces character, character produces hope. And it's like in those times where you are suffering and it is difficult. That's that producing of that perseverance and character and hope that God's trying to get out of you through really difficult times.
SPEAKER_01I think too, I think it's such a when I think of I obviously relate this back to like suffering and in my own life or like disappointments and or when I'm disappointed or when I've I've gone through something. And I think a lot of it where it exposes like for me, like anxiety. Obviously, I've talked about that. Like that's a lot of my like I carry a lot of that. And so I I feel like too, that's a desire to control an outcome. And so many of us that's what we do. Yeah, but we want to know why this happened, we want to know you know, which you know, today we were talking, or today during our church, he I want people to know it's so good that God doesn't He doesn't bring on bad things, He doesn't bring bad things. You know, like bad things don't happen because God caused them. But I do think he uses bad things for his good. For his good. And so I think sometimes when we try to control the outcome, it's like we're a los it's a losing battle. Yeah, you know what I mean? And I also think, too, like we see that throughout the Bible. David poured out his feet all of his fears in Psalms. Elijah became so overwhelmed he wanted to give up, and then Paul wrote about being burdened beyond his own strength, and none of those experiences disqualify them from being used by God. And I think that's so important because we see this, we see when we're going through suffering and hardships as we see it as are we gonna get like is this going to be like why am I going through this? Yeah, it's the first thing you think, like, why me? And a lot of people in those moments ask God, why are you doing this to me? Why, why is this happening? And I think the biggest thing is that we just we have to be faithful and know God's word and stand on his word um in those times, and be rooted in his word because those are the times we're gonna need it most. Yeah, so um do you have anything else on that next or I'm going to the next question?
SPEAKER_00Yeah, and the next question kind of like I feel like leads off of that a bit. How do we respond when life feels unfair and doesn't make sense? Which I actually I just I love that especially because so many that's what we just said, yeah.
SPEAKER_01We just talked about yeah, why is this? This is so unfair, and that's what most most people think like I don't deserve this. Yeah, I don't deserve well, nobody deserves like what we we deserve, well what we really deserve is you know not what we're we've been given. No, no, um, I think this is something also that Solomon wrestles with throughout the whole book, and he looks around and sees that good people suffer, wicked people often prosper um and go unpunished, and it doesn't seem fair, and a lot of times people pretend that everything's okay. Would you agree with that? Yeah, um, but I think I have let's see, I have four things that I think I'm a points person, I'm like a reality points person. I am. I like people that I listen to, a lot of people I listen to are like points. This is your point, point. And I think it just keeps my mind, because I'm my mind's all over. I like Craig Rochelle, because always okay, write this down.
SPEAKER_00Here's point one. I'm like, yes.
SPEAKER_01But my first one will be you acknowledge reality. Okay, so like Solomon, he doesn't he doesn't ignore it. Yeah, and a lot of us do. We ignore the problem, we ignore whatever it is. No, you know what all Solomon does, he names it. And I think that's something we need to get better at. I really do. Um telling God, like naming whatever that is, and that's hard because when you sometimes when you speak it out loud, it becomes reality. You know, like it really does. Yeah. Because if you're keeping it in, sometimes just speaking it, you know, it's like it's such a big thing whenever you're speaking God's name. Sometimes that when we just say Jesus, Jesus, like there's just something about that. Truly calling on him. Yes. Um, because you know what? God isn't threatened by our questions. No. And throughout the the Bible, like honestly, it says like people like David, Job, and Jeremiah brought their confusion to him, honestly. Yeah. And I think that's what he wants. I think that's what he craves. Don't you think he craves that? Yeah. Like just come to me. Like, just be true. Yeah. And number two would be accept that we won't understand everything. Yeah. Right? That's hard. And that's hard for someone that's a control freak. Yeah. And uh honestly. Or just anyone, even when you're not, we want to know everything. Yeah. We want to understand why. Yeah. It's logic. It's for us to try to, it's if it's a logical thinking to make sense. And guess what? No one can fully comprehend all that God is doing. And then three is just to continue being faithful. And I think, you know, whenever I was going through all that, I said, you know, like I'm knowing that not being faithful is not isn't that's being faithful is is there's how should I say this? Not being faithful is not an option. Yeah. It's just not. Yeah. Like you show up no matter the outcome, no matter what happens, no matter where you're at in life, and I'm feel like I'm speaking to someone out there that is, you know, just they don't feel like they have hope. They feel like they've lost everything, they feel like there's just there's nothing that's gonna bring them back. And that is such a lie. It's a lie. Yeah. And that we just you just continue being faithful one step at a time. Don't think about tomorrow, just think of each step as a step, and God will get you through it. And um that's where our our be our obedience comes through that. It's it's it's just that's part of it.
SPEAKER_00So as a parent, I feel like it's easier because you have people depending on you like that need you, but even not, even if you're walking through something like that and you don't have children or a husband depending on you, or a spouse, you can think about there's at least one person who needs you for something.
SPEAKER_02Right.
SPEAKER_00And even if you have to remind yourself, I just have to show up for that one person, or for these people that I work with, or for someone I'm taking care of, or maybe someone who I'm like reaching in ministry, like show up for the one person who still needs you.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, and I just I don't know why, but I have this like picture in my head of just someone sitting, and someone sitting next to them, and you just thinking, no, like this isn't this isn't the one person, and I feel like that is the one person. So I don't know who that's for, but just continue being faithful, okay? Absolutely, and um, your faithfulness is never wasted.
SPEAKER_00Yeah.
SPEAKER_01Four would be receive today's gifts again, like step by step. Just think about it as you know, one of one of things Solomon keeps coming back to is enjoying the ordinary blessings that God has given him. Yeah, sharing a meal, yeah. Meaning, meaningful work. Yeah. Maybe your church, maybe your neighbor needs some weeds. Pull. Yeah. Go pull the weeds. Go pull go pull the weeds. Relationships, moments of joy. Um, those aren't distractions from hard times, those are reminders of God's goodness. And then um, can I trust God's character even when I don't understand his plan?
unknownYeah.
SPEAKER_01That we come to. You got something to say on that.
SPEAKER_00And I can't I have a really hard time about recalling where in scripture I've read something or and I read a lot of um commentary on scripture, so it could be from that as well. But um I the I just keep coming back to this. It's like you either trust God or you don't. So when something happens, good, bad, devastating, whatever, and you come to that crossroads of like, can I still be faithful through this? I feel like it boils down to this one single question, and it's either I trust God fully or I don't trust Him at all. And that's the decision that you have to make. And if you choose That's a hard decision. Yeah. And I mean, there are some times where I mean there will be an earth-shattering, devastating thing that happens to you at some point in your life. So I'm not saying that lightly or about something very flippant. Like, if it is that situation that you're in, you either trust him fully to know that even in this terrible situation that he is still good and he is still God, or you don't. And I mean that's that is the reality of it. And if you choose to trust him, then you choose to continue being faithful.
SPEAKER_01Yeah. So good. And that doesn't mean it's gonna be easy. No, it doesn't mean it's you're not gonna do it without fail. Everyone's all gonna fail. Um a lot of times too, what I think of we think of what are we a f like what when you were you were talking about like that, it makes me think too is not understanding what are we afraid to lose. Yeah. And mostly what are we afraid to lose is obviously you I would have a I would have a list of things I'm afraid to lose, but ultimately you have to ask the question like the same thing. Like it's not about like if I trust God, yeah, we're all gonna lose things, yeah, unfortunately. Yeah. And um, but if we choose God, and the we know that we're choosing the right side, yeah. And also a a lineage of good things, and if it ain't good, it ain't it ain't over.
SPEAKER_00Good job! That's our vote quote of the day. Bo quote. There you go. But and and I feel like this is like you get to Ecclesiastes, you read Ecclesiastes, and you think it's kind of it's kind of morbid and it's a a little bit depressing if you don't understand the true concept context. And what Solomon is trying to convey through all of this is that if we're approaching life with this like under the sun mentality that that we can try fulfilling our desires with wealth and with success and with possessions and with all of these things, we're gonna get to the end of our life and it's just gonna be that. It's just gonna be over. We're not gonna be remembered, that's gonna be the end. Or we can look at life in light of eternity and say, all these things that everyone else finds so important, they're really truly meaningless. What's the most important is my relationship with God and my faithfulness, yeah, and all of these other things are gonna pass by.
SPEAKER_01And I also too like your relationship with people over possessions is yeah, I want to put that in there too. Like, there's people that need reach, there's people that you, like you said, that you can only be a part of, that's only going to listen to you, or that's just waiting for you to say something. Reach out and grab that. I'm also I want to, we it talks about seasons and where plans changed and plans can change that God's faith isn't depending dependent on my understanding. Just kind of like what Jesse said. Um, a verse that's encouraged me is Proverbs 3, 5 through 6. And it's trust in the Lord with all your heart and lean not on your own understanding, and all your ways submit to him, and he will make your path right or straight. Notice it doesn't say trust him after you understand. It says trust him instead of leaning entirely on your own understanding. So I think that's such a good way to close out that. Like, lean on him. Yep, trust him. You're not gonna have all the answers. Yeah, you're not.
SPEAKER_00So, um anything else to add from this one? We good? I think the like the last thing I have is that kind of what I just said a minute ago, everything people commonly pursue for meaning has value, but none of it can carry the weight of being our ultimate purpose, and that is to faithfully serve God and to lead others to Christ. And that's that's what we're here to do.
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