Corridor of Crime

Flagged Down, Part 2 : The Case That Stayed

• Corridor of Crime • Season 1 • Episode 5

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The Conversation continues. In Part two we discuss the case the stayed, the process of investigations, how police work can change an investigator and the culture behind an agency. 

Our personal favorite retired Homicide Detective. We may have a hard time interviewing anyone else again. Thank you again for sharing your time.

We hope our listeners enjoy this as much as we did.


-Sarah Elle & ML Browning. 

SPEAKER_03

Is there a certain case or cases that stick out to you, or and if so, why? Our conversation with a retired homicide detective continues as we explore the case that stayed with him long after the headlines faded. Welcome, passengers. This is Sarah L, along with ML Browning, two lifelong friends who didn't just stay friends. We stayed curious. This is Corridor of Crime, and we're taking you with us. Every episode is an exit, and every exit is a story. So buckle up. And please remember to always check your blind spots.

SPEAKER_02

Hi, this is ML Browning. Before we begin, this episode includes discussions of violence and sensitive topics. Please take care while listening.

SPEAKER_03

Is there a certain case or cases that stick out to you, or and if so, why? I listened to a lot of true crime when I just really went. I had researched one recently and it really affected me. I think I know why, but it really stayed with me. And until I kind of let it go, I mean, I found myself crying and just being really affected. And then I think it was because, for example, the victims had been these amazing people, and it was just so I mean they're all senseless, right?

SPEAKER_04

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03

But it was the reason, the the people, it was like all of that for me. Um and it really just pissed me off, to be honest. And so I didn't know what to do with that energy. So is there something like that for you? And what is it that affects you?

SPEAKER_01

I I think it's probably affects everybody, it's not just me, but you whenever you work a crime, especially and you've made comment to a couple of times, like a a homicide or a murder investigation, the um there's always the people the the families that of the victims, and even the families of the suspects, you know, to have a have uh a child or uh part of their family goes off the hook and does something completely uh crazy, and they're left with, oh my god, I can't believe that. There truly are instances, I think, where the families are surprised by some of the behavior of their uh offspring. Um a lot of times they're not. There's a progressive history there, but sometimes there's not always. But it's the victims' families that I uh, you know, when we are get involved, we uh work closely with those victims' families, and and um sometimes we don't bond uh we we bond, but we don't develop a lasting relationship, for example. But sometimes we do. And and uh I can think of a case we had back in '91 where a 14-year-old girl was found murdered in her home. She was found by her mom and her sister, who was six at the time. And um we had some very good fortune and some great police work by a lot of people, some great witnesses who did the right thing and never hesitated about telling us about things they saw and heard. And we were successful in making um an arrest, and we ended up successfully prosecuting that person or the person responsible for that murder. But the the point I was gonna make is the um I had young children at the time, and I I could stand in this um crime scene and look and see my home from where I was standing.

SPEAKER_03

Right.

SPEAKER_01

And I knew that my children and my wife were home at the time, and you just have to stop and kind of take all that in. And the six-year-old the mother of the victim, um, because she was uh so affected by the loss of her daughter, we we became friends. And uh, I mean, just to the extent that she would keep me posted about how her daughter, her youngest daughter, was handling things and progressing along. And if she needed information about the suspect who had subsequently been convicted and gone off to serve life in prison without parole, um things that he would do or say in in prison that affected her. So I would try and plug her into sources and stuff. I was kind of that contact for her. But the cool thing was is uh the six-year-old daughter always, as she grew up into a young woman, she's now uh I think uh a mother of her own, and she's uh a police officer, I believe. She um used to always send me cards and tell me, hey, you know, I'm I'm um on the swim team and I'm doing well if you'd like to come to a meet. Or she's she would tell me, yeah, I've graduated high school and uh I'm in four-wheelers and hunting, and I got some friends that were gonna go out and do this and just kind of tell me stories. She ended up joining the Navy, became an investigator in the Navy, and I believe carried that out. I've lost contact with her since I retired, but um, I believe she carried off that um that naval work into the private sector, and I believe she's a police officer or maybe an investigator at some level in civilian work now. But it was really cool that we could I could see that she grew up into a a really cool young lady and became a mom and she turned it into something beautiful. Yeah, she turned it into and there was a time when she was probably maybe junior, senior in high school where she wanted to meet with me and she wanted to hear all about the case of her sister. That was the first time she learned the facts of her sister's passing. She was so little at the time, it just some of the stuff didn't stick, and some of it she wasn't blocked out, maybe as well. Maybe so. And so um she wanted to sit down and hear all the story, so it was pretty cool. It was uh it was neat, and that that's not just something I I've been the privilege of experiencing. I'm sure police officers in all all areas have a case where they become so attached to the people and and their lives and stuff. It's that's a cool thing. But that that was one case that I think about whenever that topic comes up, I can think about it instantly because I remember clearly to this day.

SPEAKER_03

I mean that's beautiful, really.

SPEAKER_01

Yeah, it's a neat story. It they're not always that way.

SPEAKER_03

Well, of course not, yeah.

SPEAKER_01

And um but but but there's a lot of good people out there, and um I I always hated to meet them that way, but that was the way we chose to meet.

SPEAKER_03

And it's really nice when someone because a lot of times trauma obviously can do a few different things to us, and oftentimes it's really unfortunate it can just become a cycle that repeats itself. So in w in some way or another. Um, so it's really nice to hear something like that where she turned it into something beautiful. Can I ask, um, was the was the perpetrator known to the victim?

SPEAKER_01

Kinda. That that's where some great police work and witnesses came about because what happened is whenever you have a homicide, the first and most important thing to do is you gotta identify your victim and learn as much as you can because somebody has came in contact with this victim and taken their life. So that may be just an isolated event. Most of the time, it's persons that are known to each other for some period of time. So what happened is this child's mother had uh broken down in her car one day. And she broke down in her car uh right in front of a particular house. The bad guy came out, unbeknownst to her. We didn't know he was a bad guy at the time, fixed her car. And so uh as a favor to the fella for fixing her car, she invited him over for dinner. So it was that contact where the bad guy first met the victim. Not unintentionally, but through the course of a a good gesture of dinner. And so the bad guy has been a bad guy for a long time, just people didn't know it. He was uh a peeping Tom, and he had a long history of of that behavior, and a lot of people knew him for that behavior, and he had been turned into the police several times, so he had a criminal history of trespassing or voyeurism, and so what happened is he had his sights set on our victim before for a few months, and she was he he had given her some really creepy vibes, and she had expressed that to her mom and to some of her friends and said, Oh wow, this guy gives me the creeps, and I see him hanging around occasionally, and I don't want to be around him. So when she comes up dead, and certainly a victim of a homicide, clearly, she was found dude and the sexual assault and in her home, and um the investigators start talking to friends and families. And hey, does there anybody that you know of that kind of creepy in her in your life or her life recently? And anybody that in particular maybe made her feel uncomfortable, uh, certainly more recently. And and this person's name kept coming up. Oh wow so thank goodness. I mean, uh, we got the name. And we we ran with it.

SPEAKER_03

That's great questioning, too, just to say, you know.

SPEAKER_01

No, yeah. It is. And credit to the policeman. Uh one patrolman came up on the scene and stopped me and said, Hey, by the way, I don't know if this person's name has ever come up to you, but there's a guy who lives in this neighborhood who's a peeping Tom, who has a criminal history of spying on young ladies uh during private moments in their home, just to let you know. And so all of a sudden we start hearing that name circulating. The victim's girlfriends were saying stuff like, Yeah, this guy was he just kind of appears from time to time and gives our victim some real creeps. And you know, her antennas were up, and mom's antennas were up, and they were all taking this information in, thankfully, and of course the first tips we had, and it paid off. Yeah, we we uh made him on some eyewitnesses and for uh who I could identify him at her house during the time uh that our victim was assaulted. We made him on DNA, first DNA case in the entire state of Oregon. Oh wow, it was um uh an amazing case. Our crime lab, um the criminalist, did an amazing job uh because it was brand new. Uh we our our local crime lab didn't even have the testing processes in place. All the evidence went to a private lab in California and then to the FBI lab in Quantico, Virginia.

SPEAKER_03

How long did that take? Do you remember? I bet.

SPEAKER_01

Well, kind of we got a preliminary result from the private lab out of California in four days.

SPEAKER_03

Oh my gosh.

SPEAKER_01

They they did amazing work, but it was expensive. Our DA stepped up and said, no, we're this is important, we're gonna do we're paying the freight. We want to know as quickly as we can is this bad guy the same bad guy we've been hearing about. And so we did a we uh obtained a search warrant, got his blood samples, the they were sent off with the uh stranger DNA from the crime scene, and it came back four days later, presumptive hit. So then we were able to then send it off to the lab in FBI Quantico, and the people back there were just coming online with a DNA lab there, uh, and they did a long process called RFLP. And the DNA lab there, the biologists were able to put it together. The numbers weren't nothing near like they are today, were one in a bazillion. A bazillion. I think the numbers there were like one in 23,000 Caucasian men was the contributor of this. Still very high. Was was absolutely unbelievable. Right. So um that took us months to get to, though, to that level. And then the courts had to go through what's called a relevancy process because it's new science.

SPEAKER_03

The courts had to hear all of the the basis for the argument for the basis, yeah.

SPEAKER_01

Yeah, they had to hear uh statistical probabilities, they had to hear all the biology that went into it. Why is this uh biology uh legitimate and why is it trustworthy, and why is it so discriminating? And then once you get a biological profile, how uh is that relevant to the statistical population of our community and males and females and uh races and stuff like that? So we had relevancy hearings that ran for about a month, and then the courts were all ruled throughout that it was going to be an acceptable science in the state of Oregon. Oh my gosh, it was it was amazing. That is amazing, and and uh so then we we were able to present it in trial, all those same witnesses in the relevancy hearing came and testified into us. And was he free at that time? No, um, because of the seriousness of the crime, he was taken into custody, but he wasn't arrested until about a week following the murder, roughly. Um that's still good though.

SPEAKER_03

I mean, considering the time and considering the science.

SPEAKER_01

It was a it was a great thing for our community because being such a vulnerable young lady, 14-year-old victim, um, high school student, um a great kid in the community, everybody was freaking out because this is a it was a stranger, it wasn't a known person, it wasn't at the time, you know, it wasn't like wasn't caught in the act kind of thing. So there were people that were out buying caps done, practicing at firing ranges, keeping their kids out of the community and at home, and restricting school activities and stuff. So there was a lot of pressure from the community to find this person and and get this person in custody. So once we were able to do that, um it was a it was really rewarding. We got this person arrested, put in custody in. He he was held um for a couple years, and I think the trial probably started a year or two into his confinement, and um, and then he was convicted and sent to prison for a period of his natural life without approval.

SPEAKER_03

Is he still there?

SPEAKER_01

Yes, he is. Um, 20, I want to say 21 or 22 at the time.

SPEAKER_03

Here's a question. Usually those types of crimes seem to um come after like hurting animals. Now, I understand that the peeping tom, you know, usually is followed by a break-in, and then it leads up to something like that. Do you think that there's something that happened before that? Like some break-ins and maybe some like stalking behaviors, or some I mean, do you think yeah, yeah, that's what I wonder.

SPEAKER_01

Um, he his behavior, his peeping tom be kind of became over the top. He he actually got caught peeping several times and it didn't deter him. He just continued his behavior.

SPEAKER_03

Like maybe there was a rape mist, or I'm just speculating.

SPEAKER_01

That's possible. Yeah. We never identified anything um that we were concerned about uh as far as the sexual assault. Right. We we didn't have anything that, like, oh geez, we think he did this, but we just couldn't prove it. No. We um we called every one of his peeping victims to trial, and during the penalty phase of his um case, these ladies all got on the stand and testified that they saw that guy right there, pointed their finger at him, and said he was a guy that was peeping in my window. There some of them had boyfriends or husbands or spouses uh that would actually chase him. One of them caught him and beat him up one time, and it did not deter him. He's like, and so um his primary he he would he told us, he says, My victim of choice is gonna be 14-15 years old. So he he targeted those girls, and um so even when he was confronted by people, he got beat up, like I said, he didn't slow down at all. And in our victim's case, he identified her, selected her as a target, burglarized her home. She was in the home trying to get ready for school. He broke in the house while um she was at home getting ready by herself. Her mom had left for work, her sister had left for school, so he had all morning long to victimize her, and he did. And um, there were signs of a struggle. Her headphones were torn and broken and thrown in the trash. She um was strangled. Um yeah, it was a horrible yeah, he so his his behavior absolutely progressed.

SPEAKER_03

It did. I just wondered if there was like something in between that just seems so quick to be so violent.

SPEAKER_01

But I mean hoping and praying. I'm thinking that we got him before he had a chance.

SPEAKER_03

You know, I think as a woman, we're always thinking like trying to read patterns and wanting to know what to look for, you know. But yeah, I mean, there's no way to identify crazy right away.

SPEAKER_01

No, that's true. But I would like I said telling you earlier, this 14-year-old girl, her antennas.

SPEAKER_03

She knew right, she that's what I was impressed by. 14, you know.

SPEAKER_01

And her mom, her antennas were up, and they were thinking, hey, this guy is a creepy guy. And so they they made it clear to him, hey, don't come around. Right. You know, they were trying to be nice. And and the girl would she'd look out her window and see him outside, and she would pull the drapes. You know, I mean, um That's sad. It's so good news is they uh the women's intuition was working, right?

SPEAKER_03

It's just that maybe they were, you know, he he had a mission and he, yeah. That's unfortunately the way sometimes it happens. Do both of your kids do they love what they do?

SPEAKER_01

Yeah, I think so. Yeah, I think so. I you know, they're they're in the middle of their careers right now, and so you know, they're they get frustrated at times, just like we all do.

SPEAKER_03

I've heard wonderful things about your daughter as well.

SPEAKER_01

She's a she's a really good person and a kind-hearted person, and she um primarily does uh assaults against children.

SPEAKER_04

Oh yeah.

SPEAKER_01

And my son uh primarily does he he used to be a drug investigator. Okay, uh uh kind of a like undercover, but uh now he's doing um intelligence work and uh a lot of technology and uh he knows what he does, I think. So yeah.

SPEAKER_03

Wow.

SPEAKER_01

Pretty cool.

SPEAKER_03

Yeah, that is cool. And so did um he intentionally choose the city he's living in, or he just applied and how does that work?

SPEAKER_01

Yeah, he he went to what the time was called the police corps, and he got trained in the police corps, and he did all the background and and um training and education. He had a college degree, and then when he finished, he placed at a certain spot, and that police corps then marketed him throughout agencies in the state, and they sent out like resumes saying, hey, we've got this officer here, or this trainee that's just completed this process. It's a nationwide process, by the way. It was started, I think, by President Clinton, trying to get more police officers on the streets back in the uh 90s, and um so it was an alternative to going to the standard police academy, and so when he finished this training, the agency marketed him, and there were a couple agencies that said, Hey, you know, uh we we would be interested in him. And uh Eugene was one of them, and so he um went to Eugene, they liked him, they did a background on him, selected him based upon his testing and stuff. And so he started there uh in Eugene.

SPEAKER_03

And did they both know from an earlier age that that's what they wanted to do in their careers, or it was like on the list of things that were maybe that's what I want to do?

SPEAKER_01

I think so. My son was when he was in college, was he was recruited by the FBI at one point in time, and uh I was a little worried because I thought, oh geez, you know, he'd be transferred all over the United States and maybe even abroad, and we would lose track of him or not be able to see him as much. So I kept trying to tell him, hey, you know, police local police. Police is so much better. There's all kinds of agencies you could go to, you know. And and uh and then he got involved in the police corps, and then my daughter, I didn't realize it, but she had told me that she had um really wanted to be uh in police work for a long time. Um and she's college educated, went to college and got her degree, and and when she got her degree, that's she started in dispatch, and she said, you know, that's where a lot of ladies went, but she said, My heart and my dream always wanted to go into police work, and so she uh had known some of the people who encouraged her at uh where she's working, and so she applied and good for her and was accepted and trained, and she I done well, I think. Yeah, but yeah, I think it's something she's been wanting to do all along, and she just never really expressed it to me much.

SPEAKER_03

So I see. Um, so if you who do you think is a good candidate for this type of work?

SPEAKER_01

I I think you gotta be a good sound mind. I think you've got to be a good person, and I think for the most part, you gotta want to do it because there's a lot of hurdles, there's a lot of ups and downs. It's tough on families because I was telling you early on, you know, my kids were having functions in schools and in society, and I was busy sometimes and wasn't able to go. And some of that kind of stuff, I'm thankful I have a good wife and children that were understanding and kind of put up with that. But it's tough for some people. And we work in Christmases and holidays and Thanksgivings and the families at home. I can remember um working graveyard and on Christmas Eve, and they would let us go home and listen to the radio, and we would go home and and put toys together that that might appear in under the tree earlier in the day, you know. And so those are things that are tough on families. Um some of the things we had to do and see and deal with was stressful. Uh and sometimes it it's hard on some people. And I think you gotta really be a good solid person. I personally think you gotta be a Christian. I uh I'm I've my Christian faith helped me a ton. You know, when things were tough, I I had somebody to talk to and kind of put things in perspective. And ground you're the same. And and there's all kinds of Christian, I mean, there's different faith, so whatever, it doesn't have to be a certain one, but something to ground you, yeah. And uh so I think that's important. And and like I said, I think you gotta want to.

SPEAKER_03

Do you think that um having the career you had, did it in any way cause you to lose any faith in humanity or change you at all? Oh, I think so.

SPEAKER_01

I think you get a little bit kind of sarcastic, you know, sometimes cynical. Sometimes you get a little bit, you know, um dismissive sometimes. And and you know, um gotta battle through that because some if that can get you in trouble. Certainly you can't have that kind of attitude when you're investigating things because you can send you down the wrong road. You know, uh you've got to have an open mind and a clear thought so that you can look at things objectively and and analyze them critically and not you know subjectively.

SPEAKER_03

So and then just a couple more questions. I don't want to keep you all day. I could I could pick your brain all day. I ramble to no, you don't. I absolutely love it. Have you ever been surprised by the outcome of an investigation and where it led you to? And if so, can you talk a little bit about that? Or a lot?

SPEAKER_01

Let's see. Um I I was always pretty good about uh keeping things objective and open-minded. So sometimes I wasn't shocked by the disposition of an investigation, you know. Sometimes people go into it and think, oh, it's gonna be the wife, or it's gonna be the husband, or it's the boyfriend, or you know, that kind of stuff. And um and then they're surprised maybe if it's the cousin or the aunt or the uncle uh or the friend down the street. But um, I think that sometimes it surprises me is the outcome of the like the trial phase. I I became I I I kind of lost a little bit of faith. Like sometimes I would always, when I was younger, think like, oh geez, we got a great case, and this is the jury's gonna convict this person, etc. etc. And most of the time that's true, but there's occasionally where sometimes they get hung up on things that really aren't necessarily important to hang on. Sometimes the attorneys would sell on a different area. I I'm not trying to say there's any anything wrong. That's part of our system, but I was really disappointed sometimes on some of the outcomes of the justice part of it. Sometimes people get found not guilty when I think, gosh, what did I miss there?

SPEAKER_03

Is this when they say you never know how a jury's going to react? Yeah.

SPEAKER_01

Yeah. Because the policemen, we know we know a lot of stuff. Inside and out. Yeah. And the it's good and bad, because sometimes we know things that the jury never gets to hear, because it's not maybe necessarily legally admissible in testimony or in evidence.

SPEAKER_03

Like, for example, maybe a jury, I'm just using this as an example. It doesn't mean that this was part of this case. But for example, if they didn't know the peeping Tom had been peeping to uh peeping tom the entire time. I'm just using that as an example. Yeah. Or whatever it may be. Exactly. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01

Yeah. What often happens, sometimes the defendant will say something to the investigators that maybe was heard in a context that isn't uh admissible in court.

SPEAKER_03

Okay.

SPEAKER_01

Okay. And so we might know something like, hey, you know that guy there told his cousin that he that he uh done something terrible. Yeah. That he's done it, but yet we don't hear that officially or legally. So consequently, the jury's not going to hear that. So yeah, we know things, maybe a lot more things sometimes that we know about his admissible or his guilt and innocence that the jury may not hear. Right. And also it pertains to evidence the same way. Sometimes evidence is obtained and is determined not to be admissible in court for whatever reason. Doesn't mean that there was anything inappropriate done. It just means that it there's a it's lacking in a particular area of admissibility. So, and that's cool. That's the way it happens. And we are given a standard that we have to meet, and sometimes we can't get there. But unfortunately, we know that the jury doesn't get to, and so maybe the jury finds that person innocent, not necessarily innocent, but not guilty. And we're like, holy cow, how did we miss that? How did they miss that?

SPEAKER_03

And in reality, it's just sometimes it's beyond a reasonable shadow of a doubt, or whatever that is, and sometimes it it is, I feel like, difficult because there are people who are put away who we find out later are innocent, but I think that's more traceable in the idea that okay, that was obvious, you know, retrospectively, not you know, all this circumstantial evidence that's you know a mile long. Right. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01

There there's you know, I've I I don't think I've ever seen it personally. And if I ever was concerned about um whether or not somebody actually did it, right, I I would have been the first one talking to our prosecutors and the judges and everybody saying, hey, I don't feel good about this at all. And here's why.

SPEAKER_03

And I think that comes really comes down to integrity and culture of a I really do. And I uh holding each other accountable and you know what we were talking about. Yes, yeah.

SPEAKER_01

And I think that's that's what you have to do. Because uh I mean we're only human. Right. We all make mistakes, but you have to admit that you've made a mistake and you've got to correct it.

SPEAKER_03

Right.

SPEAKER_01

And and uh hopefully that's done long before and there's there's so many checks and balances. I mean, for most offenders, I mean when we when we we gather the evidence and then we submit our completed investigation to the prosecutor, the DA's office. Now they're gonna look at it, and there may be several attorneys look at it, and then they have to feel confident or comfortable that it's a prosecutable case, and then that's presented to usually the grand jury, and then the grand jury is given an opportunity to say yay or nay. Yes, this is a crime, and this is the person responsible, or no, it's not, and this is not the person responsible, and then once you get to that point and it's still in your affirmative, then it goes to the judge. The judges are hearing all of the questions and the motions and the issues of suppression coming up as it, and they're gonna get a feel for whether or not this is a a per a good case or not a good case, and then they allow it to continue, and then it goes to the jury. So, I mean, it just doesn't wind up with a crooked policeman, just doesn't wake up one morning and go scratch somebody and throw them in jail.

SPEAKER_03

And I ran the whole entire system. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01

I mean, there's a ton of scrutiny that goes into that, and so that's why I are mistakes made, yeah. Um I I hear they are. I I I pray to the that I've never you know made one of those like that. Uh but I don't I don't know.

SPEAKER_03

Yeah, I hear more, you know, in southern states, and it's more about you know systems of oppression and you know, but I don't know. I can't speak on those, but I know that they really happen in DNA and all the things. Um, and that is unfortunate. And that's more of like cultural and socioeconomic stuff, but it it does, you know, need to be noted. So yeah.

SPEAKER_01

I think everybody's aware of it too. So I mean uh it it's that kind of stuff because of uh the media and stuff is is um a lot of people are aware of it. So I I think it's less likely to happen nowadays, and in our community, uh we have a a pretty good community. I mean, there's a lot of people that keep an eye on things that make sure it's done properly. And I think because of all that, uh it's gonna be less likely to happen. Is it is it ever possible? Yeah, I guess it is.

SPEAKER_04

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01

And unfortunately, I don't want to say that, but it's probably possible. But likely, but not very likely.

SPEAKER_03

Yeah, as I mentioned, your agency to me is also very professional. And is that something that is thoughtfully done as well? Because I don't think that even detective work, yeah, you can go by gut. Um you know, speaking of your 14-year-old girl, you know, she has a gut instinct. Um, but also is this there are things taught that that not just how you treat people, but you know, detective work. Like these things are acceptable and these things aren't, you know, because I think that is important.

SPEAKER_01

And I I think it's probably one of the things that I should have mentioned earlier when you talked about how things have changed over the years from when I first got in the police work until today's times. And that's probably really one of the biggest things, frankly. And um what when you know, when I first became a policeman, we were taught to shoot and to protect ourselves and how to make a proper traffic stop, and what what was a crime and what's an infraction, all those things. A little bit of criminal law, how to talk to people, etc. Now we get all that kind of stuff, and now we're getting training in dealing with the mentally ill, and we're dealing with uh domestic violence, and how to recognize that circle of violence involved in domestic cases. We're dealing with uh all those other issues nowadays. One of the biggest things that we've been training on recently is ethics and our professional code of conduct and what's acceptable and what isn't acceptable, and behavior issues, and and and what is acceptable there and what isn't. So it's it's gotten so much more advanced and technical, and it's gotten a lot more just of it.

SPEAKER_03

It's a lot, I think, on all of you, because there are also times I'm not going to lie, I've watched the body cam videos on YouTube. I'm guilty of also watching these incredibly patient officers where I'm also like, you know, are is everybody being kind, but also yelling, taste them, taste them. Like, and I, you know, so it it is. And I I can't imagine the responsibility involved in like trying to be this patient professional person while also dealing with this uncontrollable, crazy person. And I'm not talking mentally ill, I'm talking someone who's intoxicated, acting a fool.

SPEAKER_01

Exactly. Exactly. It's funny because I never wore a body camera. It wasn't wasn't here when I was moving. And so that's a new prospect. And we were always taught that it's important to do the right thing when nobody's looking.

SPEAKER_03

Right.

SPEAKER_01

That's the difference.

SPEAKER_03

It would have been nice not to have somebody looking. No, it's see. Sometimes I'm thinking, oh man, there's no way I could ha handle that responsibility. I probably would have wanted to tase him. Yeah. Like, yeah. It's funny. I wouldn't have, but I don't think.

SPEAKER_00

Well, there's a time for it. There's certainly a time for the Mr. Taser to come in.

SPEAKER_03

Yeah, sometimes the amount of patience, well, some rarely on the ones I've seen, they've been out of control. So I'm like, oh my gosh, that man was, you know. And I imagine, you know, years ago in my 20s, I attended bar. And I think I was patient because I knew they were drunk. But sometimes I'm like, sir, you're you're done, you know, you get so tired of it. Um, and I found myself being really cynical, and it's not even the same, you know, not even close to the same. But I don't, there's no way, absolutely no way I could have ever been an officer. I that's a lot of responsibilities.

SPEAKER_01

It is, and and as a citizen, you run across an unruly person, in reality, you can always just kind of turn your back and walk away. A policeman can't do that. Yeah, we we're gonna have to deal with whatever cards we're given with. Yeah. And if somebody's much bigger than us, out of control, much stronger than us, uh, much more uh skilled than us, we still have to take that person into control in some fashion. That's why we're given the tools that we have, and we're trained to use them when when it's appropriate to use them, and and so sometimes we have to take somebody or we have to put hands on someone and and take them off their feet and take them into custody.

SPEAKER_03

So it has to be and it's always it always tends to be alcohol.

SPEAKER_01

Oh yeah. Drugs and alcohol.

SPEAKER_03

Yeah, drugs, of course, but the ones they're showing tend to be alcohol. Everyone's always in and it can be just at home, but it's alcohol. Have you been drinking? And it's so funny to me. I had an accident at skateboard downhill skate downhill skateboarding. And the first question, were you drinking? No, I wasn't drinking. I do this sober. Yeah, but it is alcohol often with people, whether it's you know domestic violence, um driving, whatever it is, acting a fool. Yeah, it's alcohol.

SPEAKER_01

That makes sense to me. Period. I mean, uh almost all the time.

SPEAKER_03

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01

R rarely, but I mean there are most all the time. Someone's either a history of alcohol and drugs or under the influence currently of alcohol and drugs. Yeah.

SPEAKER_03

So and it really is sad to see when you're watching it. Yeah. So I really appreciate the time you took to spend and answer questions. I found this absolutely fascinating. And it I there are more questions I have, but I would love to hear certain stories. I appreciate you sharing the one on the 14-year-old girl. I was living here at the time, and it's vaguely familiar. I was around her age. I was I I think I was in 91, I was 16, I think. And so I clearly was. Was it in the city where it happened? Yes. Yeah. So that is so crazy to me.

SPEAKER_01

Right in the core. I mean, in a nice residential area. These are nice people.

SPEAKER_00

Wow.

SPEAKER_03

Yeah, so I appreciate it. Um any thoughts that you'd like to leave us with about policing or people in dealing with officers that is really important in terms of perspective on how people are treating officers lately, or something to consider as we are so divisive lately, um, that you that you've been thinking about.

SPEAKER_01

You know, I think I think the one thing that bothers me the most is people people want to group everybody into one one little box, and it's not it's not appropriate to do. I think that the people that I would knew and worked with and currently know and work with are all really good people. They all are doing it for the right reasons, and I think the it it hurts me and the profession to accuse them of crimes of doing things uh inappropriately or and unlawfully, and and some may do, uh but but hold them accountable and and and look at things objectively. I mean, I'm I'm not naive to think that it's never gonna happen, but but it's not everybody and it's rare. And all the good work that's done is done by the body of people. I mean, it's done by everybody. Starts with a basic policeman in the street on the uniform to the administrators up above. It's just it takes everybody. Like I said, it takes a village to raise a child. It's same with police work. I mean, it's it's the whole organization.

SPEAKER_03

So um I love that. I love that. And thank you for your time. Yeah. And I hope maybe sometime you'll come back.

SPEAKER_04

Yeah, it was fun.

SPEAKER_03

Thanks so much for listening. All of our sources are in the show notes. Please find a full list and our affiliate links at corridorofcrime.com. We'd love for you to follow us on social media at Corridor of Crime on the platform of your choice. We'd appreciate it if you'd consider liking, rating, and subscribing to allow us to keep putting content out. Corridor of Crime is hosted and produced by Sarah L and ML Browning. Executive produced by Sarah L, and music is composed by Matthew Langdon Music. We will see you at the next exit. Until then, don't forget to buckle up and remember to always check your blind spots.