Recruitable Episode 6: A Conversation with Oklahoma Sooners head track&field Coach James Thomas!

🎙️ Episode 6 of Recruitable: A Sports Family Podcast

You don't want to miss this one!

We're joined by University of Oklahoma Head Track & Field Coach James Thomas for an honest conversation about the changing landscape of college track & field recruiting.

In this episode, we discuss:

• 📅 The NCAA Track & Field recruiting calendar
• 🔄 The new 5-in-5 rule and what it means for the future of recruiting
• ⚖️ The impact of Title IX on men's athletic scholarships and roster opportunities

Whether you're a high school athlete, parent, coach, or recruiting enthusiast, this episode provides valuable insight into where college recruiting is headed.

🎧 Listen now on YouTube, Spotify, Apple Podcasts, and Buzzsprout.

Recruitable: A Sports Family Podcast
Helping families navigate the ever-changing world of college athletics.

Transcript

SPEAKER_01 0:12

Hello, welcome back to Recruitable. This is episode six, and we are here with Coach James Thomas, the head coach for the Oklahoma Sooners. First of all, thank you for being here. I know you are busy, like you are off all things track and field, and you may even be in recruitment season now.

SPEAKER_00 0:30

Yeah, it's a little bit of everything, but no, I just it's it's one of those opportunities. You get a chance to sit and ch chattle on track and field, and obviously, you know, what you're doing and putting together is awesome. But anytime I can give back to the sport in any way or help anybody in the future in any way, it's uh you always want to take time to do that.

SPEAKER_01 0:45

Yeah, I appreciate it. So let me just go through your bio. Before you were with uh Oklahoma, University of Oklahoma, you spent some time with Georgia, and then uh you did like nine years with Texas Tech. And even recently, uh you were the 2026 World Indoor Championship multi uh head coach, multis and jumps, correct?

SPEAKER_00 1:08

Right. Yeah, no, that was my first opportunity to take the head coaching role. Second opportunity. I did one uh at the NACAC. Uh Coach Carol and I at Georgia, she took over the women's aisles and men's head coach. This is my first time to head uh kind of the one of the major championships uh with USATF, but I've been a part of a few of the staffs and I've always loved being around elite athlete. So anytime I get that opportunity, I jump on it.

SPEAKER_01 1:29

Yeah, how exciting. So we'll probably be hearing from you in 2028 uh in Los Angeles if some things aren't already in the works. You have, if not already, close to a dozen Olympians you've been with, you know, responsible for coaching, several NCAA national champions, over 100 all-Americans. Like the list goes on. So your success is evident in this sport. I think about all the national athletes. We talk about Olympians, like I'm thinking everybody had to start as like a high school recruit, right? Like, like before they were Olympians, most of them I would say, were high school recruits. So I wanted to just start off by asking, how has the recruiting game changed for you since NIL's and the transfer portal became dominant forces?

SPEAKER_00 2:21

Man, I mean, even since being a head coach here, the sport has changed two almost three different times. And I've only been here three seasons. So, you know, you go back to a day where everybody was on the same playing field, everybody had 12.6 on the men, you had 18 on the women, and it was one of those kind of things where the women always felt they had a little bit more because we're trying to bring in more, and the men, everybody was scraping and clawing to try and, you know, make 12 and a half scholarship work without trying to make everybody go into generational debt to come to your university. And so now with the NIL and the expansion of scholarships, uh, I I don't know if that's changed completely. I do think there's a lot more schools that have more scholarships to give and and and probably more, if you want to call it NIL Rev share. It's it's it's moving into the track and field world. I wouldn't say it's the biggest thing, the biggest game changer yet, uh, but it is starting to separate the haves from the have nots in a way. But I I will tell you this, it's changed a lot because how we look at recruits now. And uh, and you mentioned national champions. When I go through that list and I think of six of them being walk-on, almost book style scholarship athletes. Wow. I'm not sure if I would be in position now as a head coach and even assistant coach to ever be able to take that chance on a 6'8 kid that's local, take a chance on a 6'10 kid or a 19, 19-foot female out of out of high school who would have had multiple opportunities all over the country. Uh, and if you're 11-6, 11-5, 11-7 in a sprint, you had multiple opportunities around the country, and now you're getting scrutinized because uh there's a lot of things at stake. And when you have roster limitations, and I was at Texas Tech for nine years, and at one point we had 65 on one roster, 63 on the other roster. So we had a chance to take opportunities and build people up and take the time to build them up. And now you see a a a different level of pressure that's being trickled down from the top all the way to the bottom.

SPEAKER_01 4:07

Right, right. So I gotta any any coach I ask to now, like the five and five rule, how is this gonna change recruitment for you? Is it gonna open some doors for the high schoolers, you think?

SPEAKER_00 4:19

Yeah, I the the thing that changed the high school recruiting, and it's gonna be this way across the platform, is the is the scholar is the roster limitations. The five for five, honestly, that's a gift that's given to people that you give a little bit more time to develop. And that could be college, that could be high school, that could be Junior, that'd be international. Uh, but I think the biggest thing with the the five for five to me, uh when you company that with like the SEC who's saying you can only hold 35 men on the roster, 45 women across the country, any division one program can be 45 and 45. Uh you're seeing a lot more programs be a little bit more deliberate and and and nitpicky about what they're looking for. And and the amount of talent that I'm seeing kind of left in the transfer portal, left in the high school ranks, people that are still kind of calling and looking for programs. If I had to rewound that back about eight to ten years with the same level of people like I would have, it would it would have been a field day for for programs and coaches who love to develop and love to see people come from, you know, who what's their name to having to Google and realize they're standing on top of a podium winning championships. And, you know, I just hope we can get back to that day. In my mind, I still want to do a lot of that. Um, but at the end of the day, you have a smaller amount of people and you have to have uh a much higher percentage of success rate than you did in the past.

SPEAKER_01 5:32

Right, right. One thing that I find interesting is the recruiting timeline. Like when is actual evaluation? Because of course the kids are trying to get their best march, they may start going on official visits junior year and and then there's an indoor and outdoor season. And so you can run a grade 60, but I feel like most coaches, if you're a sprinter, are waiting around for that 100. It's getting late, right? It's senior year, it's getting late. So, like, at what point do you really start evaluating, track, and feel athletes in your program for recruitment prospects rather?

SPEAKER_00 6:08

Yeah, I I'll I will tell you just in the nature of our sport, which is different than basketball and football, where and I was I played basketball and I mean uh track and I ran I played basketball in college. And so I knew in college it was different. I had to get in the AU scene, people had to see me play. I can average 26 points a game in Houston, that means nothing where I'm from. But if they didn't see you and they didn't see you actually how you played defense, how you moved on the court, you you really didn't get a shot. Or if your team wasn't winning or in the playoffs, you had no shot. Track and field, everybody does the same thing. We get on the database every single time, certain points in the year, we click on certain things based on your age, but what classification you're in school, and it gives us a long list. And we may start looking at whatever that mark may be that catches our eye, and it doesn't matter what their year, if that year says 2029, it's in our notes. We know we can't really connect with them yet, we can't call them yet, but they're on our list. Uh and if they're 2026, 2027, which was the past two seasons, that we can actually make calls and make contact. We can just start doing the 28s here uh just recently and and coming up in the future with this sophomore class rising up. But it's it's such an objective sport where numbers, if the win reading matters and the win and everything lines up, anybody that meets a certain parameter probably gonna get the same calls from the same elite programs. Anybody's uh sometimes next tier is gonna get the same calls from the same type of programs. And uh I think it's turned into more and more of a numbers game. And once you drop certain numbers, you're gonna get everybody to pay attention. Uh, I don't matter what event you're in. And there's some that take a little more creativity. You know the throws, they're gonna take some time to develop. Implements change, especially on the men's side, hurdle heights change. So everybody who runs 13.6 or 13.7 out of high school is an automatic have every big school knocking down their door. But on the women's side, you know, yeah, those things stay the same. The heights stay the same, the everything remains the same. So I do think there's a point where you'll get recruited earlier if you drop the numbers earlier. But I will say this, and I encourage everybody, if you haven't found what you're looking for, I mean, go as late as you can. I don't care if it's the AAU national championship, USA, right before schools get ready to open back up. If you run fast enough, you jump high enough, you throw far enough, somebody's gonna make a spot for you at a program that's elite or at an opportunity to maybe start at a lower level and work your way back up. But listen, fortune even talk in a way where division one programs are now stepping stones for other division one programs. Uh used to be JUCO or used to be this or that. No, it's it's division one programs and NAIA and D2 and D three. They're they become now the kind of the stepping stones to be able to prove yourself and move up.

SPEAKER_01 8:33

Right, right. So how much do you rely on video versus like in-person evaluation when you're looking for prospects?

SPEAKER_00 8:41

Well, when we first make contact, I would say numbers make a lot of difference. But when it comes down to, okay, now it's time to make this offer. We only have a certain amount of slots. I think that's where every coach looks up social media and finds everything they can, especially if you're sitting in stands and you get an eye on some of the top people. Because the thing is, most people show up the track meets to watch two or three people, but all of a sudden this one kid who fouled two or three jumps looks really, really good or uh moved through the hurdles, or you saw them warming up, you saw them have a really good start and they stumbled over hurdle five but still ran 13-8, you know, whatever it may be. You you get to use a little bit more creativity in that because you get to understand that there's circumstances that may have stopped them from dropping the times that make them really else. But I made a I think I made a living out of that. I've spent so much time on the road looking for people that fit what I look for. It could be a body type, it could just be a presence, the way they compete, a confidence. Um, but you know, that being said, it can also be thing that helps you to say, you know what, I'm gonna go ahead and go this way versus the other way, based on those same criteria, the competitiveness and you know, just uh how level-headed you are, how you perform at the biggest meets, the attitude, the way you interact with your coach, the way you interact with your parents, uh, all those things start to matter.

SPEAKER_01 9:47

Yeah, that which you just answered my next question, because it was gonna be beyond the marks. What are you looking for on paper? And so if you're actually in person, you get to observe all those things. If they're filing, if they don't run a great, you just get to see the attitude, the parents, like if if it was one of our kids, like we are tracking field, we've been at every beat, you know, we just love the sport. So yeah, that's good. Whenever you guys you have the time to actually show up at these meets, like there's the high school season, and then you have the Nike indoor, outdoor, national Adidas, uh, you know, New Balanced. Do you guys ever get a chance to go to any of those, or are you just too far in depth with your own season to see some of the things that come out of those meets?

SPEAKER_00 10:35

Yeah, we we try and get it out as much as we can. Thankfully, there's some meets that have a combination of both. You know, you go out to Florida, you got Florida relays, you go to Texas Relays, you go to some of these people places that have both. But, you know, I think now with the way technology is, there's not many races at preparable meets that we can't at least go catch the video on. Even some of these platforms that have results, I can go click on any result and I can watch that race typically. Um, and and so it's I think as technology gets better, I think it it's gonna be even more important that we kind of get eyes on people if we can't be there. When I look at my schedule, yeah, it's it's packed to the fullest. But once we get to the summer, there's an opportunity to go to these meets on each of these coasts. Uh you can go to org, you can go wherever. Uh you can do USATF. I that made that was my I made my killing. I was I was at USATF meets. I was sitting there from sunup to sundown, watching every single age group, not knowing the schedule, and hopping in there and like, man, this this this kid can go. And I've I've signed somebody from every one of those meets that I never knew before. I got to those meets. So I would love to see it get back to that day, but because the digital world is is getting so good per se, we we can see those videos. And because kids, athletes, youngsters, recruits, international, they post so much. You can see you can see the technique. So, you know, if I can get online and I can click on seven, eight, nine videos and you know, and or you post something that showed a little hairline foul, but you went, you know, 26 feet or 25 feet or 21 feet, like, you know, at the end of the day, everybody's you got everybody's attention. Uh and so I think it's important that, you know, if I don't know if this is a segment, but yeah, continue to promote yourselves on on this thing, promote yourselves on this platforms, uh, make it known. It's it's like I said, it's a little different from basketball and other team sports, but your numbers, your numbers do matter. So keep working at those numbers, but don't make it all about numbers. You can do some of the intangibles that allow you to close that gap from having debt and having school for free.

SPEAKER_01 12:20

Yeah, and that and that's what it came down to, like with my son, it was just affordability. Uh, that going into his senior year, he got the some power four, power five official visits, but he kind of still had this football thing lingering over him. He kind of wanted to try that, and the attention just wasn't there for football division one, like track division one. So just dual sport athletes, that's a whole nother podcast within itself. And getting two two programs to agree to to do such a thing, especially with football, you know, football is life. Um, most places you go. So I would say, what should like a 15, 16-year-old actually be doing right now if they want a shot at a a program or SEC program like Oklahoma? What what what are the things that they should be doing?

SPEAKER_00 13:09

I mean, there's a there's a couple things, and and a lot of it comes with kind of and I don't use a concept of trust to process because I I think there's you have to put a lot more trust in yourself. That's not my favorite terminology, but I think sometimes people have the opportunity to tie in with the coaches at their high school or some great club coaches, some some people that promote you, some putting yourself in a competitive environment where you may not be the best. You may not be the superstar, you may not feel like you're getting the attention you want, but you you you gotta you gotta compete with some other dogs. You gotta you gotta train with some other dogs. And I think at some point you gotta take your craft ex extremely seriously. There's a lot of people now around the country that are getting trained by former collegiate coaches, former Olympians. They're trained with pros, they're trained at a at a level where they're gonna separate themselves much faster, even if that person, you know, a young young man or woman has the opportunity to get there, they may not be there in that same speed. So I think you have to, first of all, you you have to you have to grind on the track. You have to do what you're gonna do and you have to do it at a high level, and you gotta start treating yourself like a like an early professional in this. And not everybody has those resources, not everybody has that guidance or that coaching. Um, but I think it's worth investing and seeking it out. Every other sport to go spend $1,000, go to these AAU programs and go here, travel all over the country. And our sport may just go at the place that's closest to our neighborhood, and that may not be enough. Um and the and the ones I'm starting to see really separate themselves early, especially in technical events. Um, you know, there's there's some that are genetic events, and there's some that are a little bit more technical. But I think all of it have a technique to it. But especially for those technical events, if you're a hurdler or if you're a jumper or you're a thrower, if you haven't found that that one, and like I said, a lot of these high school coaches can't go into the summer. They can't keep training you all through the summer. Right. But that's what we evaluate the most. And so that's where you have to get ready to put on your show sometimes. And I think that investment has to come from families, have to come from these programs that allow them to get out there and really display what they can do. And then after that, uh, you know, you have to market yourself a little bit. You know, people put things on social media and may put their favorite jewelry, their favorite clothes, their favorite cars. But I think at some point you gotta you gotta build your own profile that shows that, you know, I'm putting the work in this thing. You gotta make a coach go click on multiple things and say, let me see what this person's, you know, really doing. And and then we mentioned NIL to start this thing up. This is where you build your platform for that. Because once you get to college, they're looking for the they're looking for the person with a hundred thousand followers. They're looking for the person with all these interactions, they're looking for people with that personality. And as coaches, if you know, if we can't accept that new world, then we really don't need to be in this profession because that's gonna be the new model, everything we do. That's how things are evaluated as far as NIL deals that you can receive even on your own. Um so I I think this, I think as this thing changes and evolves, I think people just have to learn how to become kind of their own self-marketers, but that then they they gotta put in the work because we still have an object objective number style sport.

SPEAKER_01 15:53

Yeah, I think what I'm saying is it looks like athletes have to get serious um a lot quicker than they usually would. I got the saying that high school is three years. Like, don't just go in knowing that high school is three years because by the time the end of your junior year, when you apply for college, they're looking at your three years of your academics. You know, senior year grades are not out. And if you're lucky, you definitely want those marks that are recruitable after your junior year that you don't have to really rely on something great happening your senior year. That I mean that's like the least stress-free situation. What is the biggest mistake that you may see um from athletes and families make in this recruitment process?

SPEAKER_00 16:34

You know what? I think what I've noticed, and the only reason I've I found this out a little bit more because, and and I'm I'll put it in two tiers. Say if you have an elite level person, um, sometimes elite level people may have a dream school or maybe a coach that might even work with them the best. There's people they may connect with, or teams that may be a little bit more their vibe, but because they sat back and thought their times were gonna do it all, sometimes they didn't reach out, sometimes they didn't connect with other athletes on the program. One thing I'm seeing change the most now is some of these elite level athletes. I mean, our college, our college kids are doing majority of the recruiting because I get on there and I'm thinking I'm on top of some stuff. I'm trying to go recruit a kid I see, and they're following three of my athletes on the team already. Uh and you're starting to see this thing evolve more and more. And and and a lot of things that are kind of brought up are brought up from people on our team, people that they know or coach, what do you think about this person? You got you got championship caliber teams that want to get better. So they're out there looking for the best as well. But I think sometimes if there's a program that that fits what you're looking for, and you know that you can't, you can be getting recruited and offered by 20 different schools. If there's schools that you may be really into or coaches that you really think you'd work well with, or whatever it may be, I think you need to try and connect. Uh, I think that's the top elite level thing because sometimes people end up just taking what comes to them. And I think that's sometimes the wrong move to make. And I think in that next level of that kind of developmental level, the people that are getting close to, okay, you've hit the marks, now everybody wants to hit you up. Uh, I think that's when they also have to do that same level of work. And it's not just the cold emails and doing this and doing that. Sometimes you got to share it. Sometimes you got to reach out to other people, sometimes you have to connect with the athletes, sometimes you have to learn a little bit more of those teams' needs. But I think you also have to expand your mind to programs that are a little bit outside the box. Some programs you may, oh, well, they this place has all the best four by ones and all the best sprinters, all the best jumpers. And so you you get locked in on these one few programs, especially if you're that middle tier, meaning you're trying to get there, man. You need to open that box wide open. Uh take a look and and reach out because there's some places may not even contact you because they think you may, okay, you ran 11-3 and you've run 2380. Oh, you're not gonna, you're not gonna talk to us. But these big schools or these dream schools aren't really reaching out to them. And so once again, they keep this little small box of schools that they choose from and don't realize, you know, yeah, this this program wasn't in a four by one and a national champions or four by four, but I'm I'm pretty sure there's a program and a coach there that wants to get it there. So sometimes you're reaching out to the best versus reaching out to the ones you can help build up. And I think that's where I think a lot of people uh make mistakes and lose opportunities and go into debt for no reason when there's a place you could have been a record holder and you could have helped change the culture and build that group up where you're at, especially these natural-born leaders that I run into all the time. I'm like, I don't care what program you show up to. If you're ready to work like you say you're ready to work, you're gonna you can turn it around, you can build something up. And if they have any kind of support of what you're trying to do, you're gonna see it grow. And there's teams you go back five, six years ago, they may not have had jumpers, they may not have distance, they may not have really had a sprint program. Next thing you know, you change one piece, a coach, you change one piece, this, all of a sudden this thing is the sprint factory or the jump factory, the throw factory. So I let you know every place has the potential to do that, but sometimes you get narrowly focused by just looking at the NCAA meet. Here's the eight teams in the finals. I want to go to one of these eight schools. Right. And I think people, I think people make a drastic mistake with that.

SPEAKER_01 19:50

Yeah, it's very limiting. So you mentioned earlier something, you know, about the the women's scholarship versus the men's scholarship. Do you see that changing in the future? Like that was a big shock to me having um a daughter get recruited first, which was like 10 times easier than getting my son recruited when I thought like his marks were better than hers. But I'm like, I didn't know this about the men's side.

SPEAKER_00 20:14

Yeah, no, Title IX, once we put that law in perspective, that was long before really we're in this stage. But when you start talking about some gender equity and Title IX laws, a lot of people are trying to balance. And the NCAA did it with the 45 and 45, but a lot of conferences start doing 45 and 35, and a lot of things internally, people have been making those adjustments because if you have 45 men and you also have football and you also have these large roster sports, at some point you have to get the women and the men equal. Uh and you had goes based off of your student population at your university. So if you're 50-50 university, you can be 50-50 numbers. But right now, and typically around the country, you see a higher percentage of women in in in college, and so they have to balance those numbers. And so they use sports like ours to balance it. So fine, give us 45 women or 60 women on your roster. We need to try and get to about 35 or 40 on the men. And so you limit the roster, you kind of limit the the resources you put into it because when you're starting to give almost 100 scholarships plus to programs like football, which I'm not trying to bash them because they pay everybody's bills, right? Uh, but but when you put 100 scholarships into those, there's not that many women's sports to get up to that number. And so you have to continue to decrease from sports like baseball, even if you have a soccer program, definitely track and field. Um, so you're gonna see that. I think it's gonna get tougher and and tougher. I think it's gonna get even more specific of what people look that uh look for. And I think especially with the international insurgents, of how so many more international athletes are jumping into the fold. People are taking a few more chances on some potential ready made. Uh the five for five does help. I think again, the high school, I think one of the things that brings that back into balance is you know, maybe there won't be as many twenty five and twenty six and twenty seven year old freshmen taking spots.

SPEAKER_01 21:53

Absolutely.

SPEAKER_00 21:53

Um it'd be, you know, if we get to compare eighteen year olds to eighteen year olds, I uh there's a really good chance our country. In the US and the high school athletes, we'll have at least an equal shot at this thing. But you can't go around beating a bunch of 22 and 23 year old veterans who've been doing this a long time, had a chance to mature, and they get to walk in to be freshmen. Um, but that was the way this the NCAA worked, and so everybody played with those rules. And I think now that could shift it back to the high school a little bit more. So when you asked that question before, I never put in perspective with the age limitation.

SPEAKER_01 22:25

Yes, especially especially for men like an 18-year-old boy coming out of high school versus, I mean, I think about uh the Indiana University, University of Indiana that just won the the football championship, those guys, there was pretty old guys on that team. You know what I mean?

SPEAKER_00 22:43

Oh yeah. Sports like that, it's everything. It's it's everything. And and we're developmental sport, it takes time. You you compare any 18-year-old to themselves three or four years from now, their senior year, they're they're different human beings. And and at the end of the day, if if I'm getting an opportunity as a coach, yeah, I'm gonna go after this 23-old established and potentially bring them in as a freshman, they still got four years with me. Yeah, we're we're we're gonna we're gonna roll that dice that way versus uh probably the development that we all grew up and raised on. I mean, most coaches where they're at right now because of things that you know they the development they've done, that's how you become better coaches. But at the end of the day, we also are are tasked with the responsibility to win. And if that's uh more of the winning formula to get people who are diamond league races and people that were Olympians already, people that were already on contracts and things like that, then it's yeah, we we have to look that route. But it's I think that will help it level off. And and I'm excited about it, to be honest with you, because the the coaching part is the the thing that excites me the most.

SPEAKER_01 23:37

Yeah. So if if affordability isn't an issue, how open is your program to like walk-ons uh and and development? Do you do you have time for that on that level?

SPEAKER_00 23:50

You absolutely have time, but once again, the thing that's gonna change that is the the roster limitation. I and I don't have the number on it, but I think I did a quick little math on it. But when they did the new roster limitations, it probably limited just in the P4. Uh, when you say let's just say we got, you know, 16 or or 15 men's teams, and every team cut 10 to 15 people from that roster.

SPEAKER_01 24:13

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 24:13

I mean, that's that you're talking about 150 to 200 people just like that that no longer can get P5, not even I'm not talking about scholars position, they can't even get a roster position.

SPEAKER_01 24:22

Right.

SPEAKER_00 24:22

You know, then you start going on to every conference down the line who've done something somewhat similar. You've eliminated almost 500 to 700 spots in track and field programs across the country for men. And people don't realize that they actually did the same thing almost numbers-wise to women, uh, because that number was typically 55 to sometimes 60 on a lot of rosters, and now you cap it at 45. So it's it's it's gonna it's limited participation. It raised the amount of people who can get scholarships and a small window of people who can get that. But I think from the opportunity perspective, it it really limited opportunity. So when walk-ons connect with me, and I talk to my staff about the potential of walk-ons, like they better pretty much be scholarship worthy because we only have you know 35 or less people that we can put on a roster, and we have to bring 32 to a conference meet. So, I mean, this is not a lot of room for error. Indoor, we bring 27 or 30 and 27. Sorry. SEC is 30 uh outdoor and 27 indoor. Uh, some of the conferences move up to around that 32, 33 range, but they're all right there in that small little window of, you know, that. But here's the thing, too. If we have 50, 55, or 45 women on a roster, but you go to a SEC, you go to a Big 12, any kind of power force school, you can only bring 27, 28 indoors. I mean, that's potentially near 20 women that are wondering why I can't even travel to a conference championship. Why I have to just go to these meets and so you may get these roster spots, but you know, you're not gonna be forced to transfer. You're not gonna be forced, but when someone tells you you may not make my travel squad for the next three or four years, you may not ever go to a conference championship for the next four years. Like that's a demoralizing conversation to have, and that's what keeps forcing people to to transfer porters. They're not getting cut, they're getting opportunities cut, not their not their necessarily their roster spots.

SPEAKER_01 26:04

And and just by you saying that I can see how other lower divisions outside of D one can get more appealing to student athletes too. I think you're gonna start seeing some crazy talent on the D2. I mean, if not already, I'm sure it it's there on the D two and D three level because of opportunities that they can get. And they're great athletes, but it's just not enough room everywhere for everybody to be in division one.

SPEAKER_00 26:28

Yeah, no, that's my that's why I got started at Samuson State, a small division one, and that's how I kind of really understood how to grind, how to work, how to work with less. And, you know, but the thing that happened at Samuson State, like people went there and they graduated in four years. They they spent their time, they did their eligibility. Now, if you develop at any one of these lower level, division two, division three, NAIA, there's there's there's gonna be very, very few four-year, five-year graduates of those kind of programs because as soon as you do well, the biggest recruiting tool you have right now is going to the region meeting, watching somebody jump well and you watching other people with all these other resources, you're one of three people from your team. You watch people bring in two charter buses uh with with you know 40 people, 45 people, and you're like, I want to be a part of that. Uh and and it wasn't as big of a thing back in the day because there was a one-time transfer rule. And so if you made that you made that move, you better have been sure that move was spot on perfect. So people felt like I'd rather stay home, you know, stay with the team that helped raise me versus always run to the next because I don't know what it's gonna be. But now if someone goes to one school and they don't like it, they move again. They go to the next school, they don't like it, they can move again. So it's uh it's giving them the power, but it's also taken the power, I think, away from some of the smaller divisional programs who I think have some of the best coaches, best programs. I think they do an incredible job with the with what they have. Uh, but once again, they're fighting just to retain talent that they helped develop and that they saw promising. And I remember being in that boat. And even when I was at Texas Tech when I first got there, you start feeling like, okay, this isn't the school everybody knows. And so you like, you don't want it to become that theater school where, you know, we build up all Americans, big up champions, and next thing you know, they're trying to run to the the big name. Um so it's it's it's it's gonna happen across the board. I think it's here to stay.

SPEAKER_01 28:09

Yeah, it's uh it's hard, and like you said, even even though they can transfer multiple times, and and maybe that'll be changing because um I seen like one transfer, and I don't know if the NCAA officially passed this, but then the next transfer, you may have to sit out a year. So if they if they do that, then that's definitely messing with some of your five-year eligibility. But yeah, big decisions to make, and you know, don't just transfer because you didn't have a good day with the coach one day. You know what I mean? Like you gotta get some thicker skin out here.

SPEAKER_00 28:42

And they already threw out that uh that's the first thing they threw out in the new five for five when I think the final legislation passed. They didn't take over, they they took away the one-time transfer thing, so they can still move as much as they want.

SPEAKER_01 28:51

That's that, yeah. I I don't know what to say about that. Like it again, don't always go. I mean, it depends I guess it depends on your goals. If you're chasing NIL and money and not really trying to develop as the greatest athlete you can be, then yeah, I could see, you know, transfers happening every year. But if you really want to be developed, I think sometimes you have to stay put um to be developed and not change coaches and teams every every time you see a money, money grab. And that's for any sport.

SPEAKER_00 29:20

Yeah, absolutely. Absolutely. And in the you know, and now they have five years, but I just I I do the tr we do transfers and stuff all the time, but it just I hate to see how many credits sometimes people lose to go places.

SPEAKER_01 29:29

Oh my goodness.

SPEAKER_00 29:30

They're taking major steps, they're doing an extra year of school. They're doing, they could have had a master's degree and they're about to take five just to get an undergrad and maybe still have to step back for a six year just to finish it.

SPEAKER_01 29:40

That's crazy. So last thing I will ask is like just what advice do you have for high school recruits out here that may be discouraged? They're with the portal, it's it's uh, you know, what I've heard I think I've heard maybe you say this in an interview, it's like their 13th year of high school and they're just not attractive to other programs, especially big programs, and and they may have the talent. What do you say and what advice do you have for those high school athletes?

SPEAKER_00 30:07

I probably give them the same advice I give to a lot of coaches that I I mentor and coaches that mentored me and through my path and had a lot of volunteer coaches, been through a whole system of it. Get your foot in the door. I think so many people hesitate getting their foot in the door. I don't care where it's at. I don't care if it's at the NAIA JU code, whatever. Uh I'm I'm one of them big fans. I'm not a big fan of debt. So even kids I recruit, people know my motto. Like, if I'm recruiting you and you gotta come here and you gotta take out loans, there's another school for you. Because I'm just not a big fan of that. I just think that there's opportunities out there, and I'd rather see somebody not come to me versus going to debt for a logo or for the uh get get your foot in the door. I don't and I will say this no matter what, find coaches, find people you can communicate with, find programs where you think you can develop. At some point, you may have to bet on yourself a little bit, but bet on yourself. Give yourself an opportunity to get on the track, get some training. It may be local, it may be cheaper for you to stay in state and stay close to home, do this, do that. But if you get an opportunity to get your foot on the door versus walk-on versus small scholarship versus okay, I can go to this school, I can go to that school and pay nothing, uh, I I think you take your chances betting, betting on yourself, but also doing your best to stay as much out of debt as possible, to be honest with you, because once again, once you start in that motion, you kind of get stuck in that motion. Um but I think if you can get someplace where you can go out there and you can really grow, you can thrive, you succeed, you gotta work at it. Because if you think you're just gonna show up and just be like everybody else, you got to find a way to separate yourself. And I think that's the one thing that I talked to athletes on their team uh that may start off as a walk on, it may start on a small scholarship. But I'm like, I'm giving you a clear path how to you completely get this full scholar. There's a path to this, and you can outwork some people. And I can show you a long list of people who did this before you, but this is what they did. They didn't do what every other college kid did. They didn't do what sometimes every other all-American that's sitting on their same campus is doing. They had to go out there and do things that other people weren't willing to do, and give up things that some people weren't willing to give up and get themselves at a level of focus that, you know, and and I say it all the time, high school, I mean freshman, sophomore year, it's like 13th grade. So yeah, you can come in there thinking that's your first freedom from home, from your parents, from all the responsibility. But if you can kind of push that to the side, get laser focused, lock into what it's gonna take to care of yourself mentally, emotionally, physically, still keeping the spiritual side, if that's what even got you there. I think that's I think that's more important than anything. And if you continue to do that, you're gonna get opportunities either at the program that you're at, or once again, just like we can in our professional world, we look to elevate and move up and and and move in our career. You have an opportunity to move up in your career. But I say before you go uh jobless, get you a job first. Get your foot in the door. Yeah, that's it.

SPEAKER_01 32:42

That's a great way to describe it. I'm jobless. You could be jobless if you keep on this path. Right.

SPEAKER_00 32:47

Let's not be jobless and then get you a job, then work your way up. And I think everybody has a has the ability, and I've seen it countless times. I can't tell you how many people I've seen that turn nothing into something. I can name 10 people on my program right now that turn nothing into something. And and so if you get that opportunity, you get your foot in the door, you just gotta go to work and you can't be like everybody else. Gotta, you you're only gonna you're only gonna get there by doing what other people aren't willing to do.

SPEAKER_01 33:11

Yeah, yeah. No, that's great advice. And um, again, I've lived it and I think um my son, he he ended up in a really good situation. We're excited, we'll see what happens. Um, but yeah, thank you uh for being on recruitable. I'm always following uh the Oklahoma Sooners. I used to be a resident of Oklahoma. Dad was in the military, so I lived in Lawton, Oklahoma for a little bit. Um, so yeah, it's exciting. Um looking forward to seeing what you do. I'll be looking for you as a coach in the uh 2028 Olympics in Los Angeles. I'll start that campaign for you right now.

SPEAKER_00 33:47

I'm gonna put my cap on, we'll put my USA store cap on. It's ready.

SPEAKER_01 33:51

Absolutely, absolutely. And hey, this will not be the last time that we'll ask you to come on and share some gems of recruitable. But until next time, just thank you for being on here.

SPEAKER_00 34:03

Appreciate the inviting. Yeah, I'll hop on anytime. Just let me know.