The (OG Star Wars) Original Trilogy breakdown: Empire Strikes Back is more monumental than Revenge of the Sith

Strap in and punch it to hyperspace! 
Odie and Rogue are diving head‑first into the Original Trilogy, sharing their Lightsides, their Darksides, and everything in between as they revisit the films that shaped a galaxy of fandom.

This episode gets even bigger as Andre and Mike from the Forced Conversations Podcast battle it out with Adrian — The Bearded Saber Guy for our explosive Echoota Debate!

And trust us… the sabers are OUT... Is The Empire Strikes Back truly more monumental than Revenge of the Sith?
Only one way to find out.

Then we wrap things up by Honouring the Ghor — answering your questions, your theories, and your wildest what‑ifs.
Your voices fuel this show, and we can’t wait to share our takes.

Adventure, debate, and pure Star Wars passion — all in one episode.

ODROGCULTURE 10% off code for JWSabers - The only stockist for TXQ and an All-Australian Company!

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We at Odrog Culture want to bring you the best and JWSabers offers that. The Crime Syndicates have put on a HUGE Bounty on them, so make sure you hunt them down at Oz Comic Con in Sydney and Canberra!

Send us your thoughts!

email: odrog.culture@gmail.com

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Transcript

SPEAKER_05 0:00

Oddrog Ultra presents Oddrogs in Hot Pods. I'm Odie and I'm Rogue. And together, this is Oddrogs in Hot Pods. Welcome to episode two of Oddrogs in Hot Pods. I am here with my co-host. It's me, Rogue. And I am Odie, and we're going to get started on a very exciting episode. We've got the original trilogy, and we've got to break that down in hyperspace hot takes going for 15 minutes. We're going to try and smash it out today the best that we can, I think, Rogue.

SPEAKER_06 0:36

Yeah, it was a lot to dissect, wasn't it? But today's gonna be no easy task given that we're covering three three films. Let's go.

SPEAKER_05 0:44

But before we launch into hyperspace hot takes, let's talk about a tutor. We've got an interesting debate today. It's going to be between the Bearded Sabre and Force Conversations. You can follow them both on Instagram, but also Force Conversations runs their own podcast between Andre and Mike, two legends from the US, joining us all the way from over there. It's going to be a good one. What do you think, Rogue?

SPEAKER_06 1:08

Yeah, I'm excited to hear it. I think the Bearded Sabre guy is going to bring some interesting opinions and I think it's going to be a good battle between the two. I can't wait to hear that one.

SPEAKER_05 1:17

The point of the Achutor in today's episode is going to be Empire Strikes Back, the most iconic film of the saga. Or is it as monumental as Revenge of the Sith? We've got Forced Conversations for Pro, the positive side for yes, Empire Strikes Back is more monumental than Revenge of the Sith. We've got Bearded Saver, who's a the biggest fan of the Revenge of the Sith. He's going to be arguing against Empire Strikes Back. A difficult one. We've had a few people interested in debates and they weren't willing to take this up. This is going to be a tough one.

SPEAKER_06 1:51

I think tough one, sure, but I could see the appeal for both being being the most impactful. So it's going to be it's going to be a tough one, and I think it's going to be another debate that'll come right down to the wire. Can't wait to be part of it.

SPEAKER_05 2:04

Finally, we wrap this episode up with Honor the Gore section where we hear from you. You can email us at oddrog.culture at gmail.com or you can Instagram us on what? You can Instagram us at oddrog underscore culture. Original trilogy. Let's break it down. Roe kick us off with the light side. Tell us all your points.

SPEAKER_06 2:25

Yeah, lightside hot takes for the original trilogy. So I really honed in today and reflected on what it would have been like going to the cinema for the first time and seeing a new hope. At that point, it was actually just called Star Wars. It didn't actually have a have a label at that at that point because obviously trialing a new a new genre and a new style of sci-fi film. And I think the the timing of when it was released was was pretty critical to its success, you know, off the back of the Vietnam War and it's it's OG Star Wars before CGI, everything's props and sets and costumes and real locations. And the story itself is clean, focused, you know, emotionally direct. Really simple detail with regard to the good guys and the bad guys makes it really clear for a society that's probably living in a really confusing time of 1977. You know, you've got the empire that represents oppression and the rebellion that represents hope. So it's a real clear battle between the two. It allows the characters themselves to carry to carry the story. And I think the simplicity of the original trilogy trilogies is what fans enjoy most. And it makes the emotional beats land a lot harder because they modern Star Wars often leans more into the lore and the explanation side of things, where the original trilogy really trusts the audience to feel rather than try and sit there and analyze what they were saying, what they were saying.

SPEAKER_05 4:20

When it's for kids, yeah, it's going to be explained.

SPEAKER_06 4:23

I think you can do a bit of both though. Like the original trilogy, you know, it had the adventure, it had the aliens, it had the lightsabers for the kids and some of the adult kids as well. But then the themes and the mythology and the politics in the original trilogy were there for the adults. So I think it I think the original trilogy did a great job at appealing to a to a broad a much broader audience. And my second one, Darth Vader, at the time, probably the greatest villain in cinema. And you know, I know last episode I said Darth Moore was, but you know, Darth Moore was was my Darth Vader growing up. But for people back then, he was the greatest villain on screen. Suit, the breathing, the silence, and he held silence and it wasn't uncomfortable for him. He dominated scenes without really needing dialogue. And my third one is The Empire Strikes Back. I think that's still the boldest Star Wars film. I'm not saying the greatest, but certainly the boldest. You know, George Lucas took a took a risk off the coattails of a war. In this tale, the villains won. You know, the the heroes lose. Would Studio Today allow a blockbuster to end on such a down note?

SPEAKER_05 5:33

Here is the ending that the villains actually come through with destruction. Love the Marvel sagas, and I especially love everything that they did in that first saga, which is an ode to Star Wars. And I'm not sure if you know this, but in every sequel of a Marvel film, a character loses a limb to pay homage to Empire.

SPEAKER_06 5:57

It hits a bit different when your dad takes your limb, though, I think. Yeah. Really does. Yes. And you know, my fourth hot take was, you know, practical effects versus CGI. You know, and people talk a lot about it. The original trilogy's limitations actually became its strength. And my very last hot take is Luke Skywalker is the pure purest hero arc. You know, a a journey that's about becoming stronger and it's about becoming better and being better. And I think it mirrors a lot of just being human. You know, he fails, he doubts himself, he faces temptation. Um, he wins by refusing to kill. You know, he wins by doing the right thing. His victory is moral, not just physical. And that's that's rare in blockbuster storytelling. But they're there my five hot takes, Odie.

SPEAKER_05 6:49

Please, let's hear your hot side. Hot takes Return of the Jedi. I'm gonna start at the end. I like the No of Darth Vader, it's controversial, it was added in after the whole retake of the set of the original trilogy and the remakes. We grew up in '99 and the remakes were done near around that. I like the No of Darth Vader that was put in recently. Probably not to everyone's liking. Of course, we can't go past Admiral Akbar. What a great entrance into Star Wars for that character. And and the It's a trap is something I really love. So many memes. So many gifts. There's two things I want to ask you about. What are your thoughts around Leia using the force to destroy Jabba and tapping into the dark side? Do you think that's relevant?

SPEAKER_06 7:29

Well, it's whether or not, again, as fans, we're, you know, we're looking for that. We're looking for that greater meaning. How sure are we that she was using the force, or was it just through strength and you know, the use of a chain and a bit of leverage, you know?

SPEAKER_05 7:44

Well, there was the dark side energy that comes out of the event at the end of Return of the Jedi. The whole premise behind that's the Emperor leaving to go into a clone body. It happened in Dark Empire, but it also happened in the sequels, of course.

SPEAKER_06 7:59

Yeah, I mean, I I think it helps to explain you know the sequels a lot better. Uh, because I know and I'm sure we'll get into this in future in a future episode, but which we will. But I I think a lot of fans actually don't like that because it it contradicts you know the the story arc of of Luke and the Skywalkers bringing balance, ultimate balance to the force, and that would sue the destruction of the Sith. So I don't know about that. I like to think that that was just all the all the dark side energy exploding and combusting and disappearing rather than going into another post.

SPEAKER_05 8:40

Did you like that in the EU though, when he came back in a younger body? I'm not sure if I liked it.

SPEAKER_06 8:46

I saw the purpose for it in the EU, and I think it it drove some of the some of the storyline and the aspirational stuff for some of the heroes in the EU, but I wouldn't I wouldn't think it it was necessary.

SPEAKER_05 8:59

Empire Strikes Back, the greatest film in the saga. It's pacing is great, but it follows this clear storytelling of the original trilogy, which I'm a huge fan on. I loved Bespan, and I still do the design, the feel. I think Lando fits the feel of the city, you know, smooth, charismatic, calm in in a way that he's just keeps his cool. The introduction of Boba Fett made fans fall in love, and the combination of a Western themed Star Wars hunter surmises the time it was released. Very true. My question to you are Spurs still cool? Of course they are. Of course they are. A new hope. The lightside I have about this is I love the pacing of a new hope. I love I loved when we watched it, is connecting the dots. After seeing episode one, you and I fell in love with Star Wars. We go to our primary school library and look for all the books. We found the little novel, yellow-covered novel of Star Wars and New Hope. We open up to the pictures, we're seeing Owen Lars, we're seeing Obi-Wan Kenobi. All of a sudden it mentions Owen Lars is Ben Kenobi's brother. There's been huge law changes across time, and we get so we get so buckled in around what is true to Star Wars. But the honest thing is that it changes all the time. And we I guess as fans, we have to learn to be flexible sometimes and accept what's canon and what isn't. When Disney took over, it was a huge uproar around these around us EU fans that were like, wow, you know what's going on here. But I think over time, I'm loving the drip feeding of EU that's coming in and inspiring Star Wars as we go on. The theory that it was Boba Fett that killed Owen and Baru Lars, what are your thoughts?

SPEAKER_06 10:39

Yeah, I don't know. Again, it's it's one of those it's one of those fan theories, and I know what you're referring to and the line that you're referring to. Can you give it to us, Odie? No disintegrations. So I like that little breathing add-on there you have. And maybe that's where fans get upset. You know, they they assume something about a storyline or about a character or about a family tree, and then when it diverges from that, it creates it just creates confusion. I think people like to get comfortable with with an idea, and once they're comfortable, don't like to shift too much from that. And so I think that's maybe the risk that happens when you start playing with what a lot of people consider Star Wars lore. But no, I don't think there was too much in that one. I think it was definitely stormtroopers, given how clumsy the blaster fire was.

SPEAKER_05 11:26

And wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait. Obi-Wan Kenobi literally says only stormtroopers can be so precise. Is he being sarcastic?

SPEAKER_06 11:35

Yeah, it definitely is. He's having a he's having an inside joke with Luke, but he doesn't get it. You know, when you have a joke with your kid, but you but you know they don't get it, but you can have a chuckle about it. I think that was one of those moments.

SPEAKER_05 11:45

So then how's this? That they are actually precise. So this is another thing I've read before. They are actually precise, but they were told not to shoot the the Millennium Falcon crew because they they wanted to find the rebel base. So what are your thoughts about this?

SPEAKER_06 12:01

Yeah, okay. Yeah, sure. So just sh sh shoot at the surrounding Death Star.

SPEAKER_05 12:06

Yeah, they had to find they had to find the rebel base. So that's that was why the stormtroopers weren't going.

SPEAKER_06 12:13

I I mean, otherwise a tracker would simply do that and you could just let them fly out. But yeah, I mean it's good to sell a story, isn't it?

SPEAKER_05 12:19

It's good to sell the one of my favorite things is always watching it when they land in the Death Star in a New Hope and keeping my eye on that stormtrooper coming through the door as he hits his head on the top. And that I think is one of the most funniest things.

SPEAKER_06 12:34

The fact that they kept it in there, too.

SPEAKER_05 12:35

Yeah, yeah, when he conks his top of the doorway. I love it. And every time I watch The New Hope, I always look for it and have a nice little giggling about that.

SPEAKER_06 12:43

Yeah, that's a good chuckle.

SPEAKER_05 12:44

I want you to launch into your dark side, let's talk the things that you didn't like.

SPEAKER_06 12:48

Yeah, sure. Well, my first dark side hot take, and I'm gonna talk about probably my favorite of the my favorite film of the original trilogy, The Return of the Jedi. I think Return of the Jedi ultimately is carried by its final act. I feel like the Return of the Jedi has three distinct parts in Jabba's Palace, Endor, and then let's not debate about this. It's the throne room that's kind of where it it really peaks. And I suppose a question for you is the throne room is so strong, does it carry the rest of the film scene?

SPEAKER_05 13:20

Yeah, I would say absolutely I agree with you. I didn't like the Need Numb and Lando times of space fighting, but that's me as a person. I love the sword fights, I love lightsabers, I love that kind of stuff of Star Wars, and I know that that part's not for everyone, and people love the flying and and the spacecrafts and everything else.

SPEAKER_06 13:38

Yeah, exactly right. I think the film struggles to balance adventure, comedy, and and mythic conclusion. And my second dark side take was I feel like the ewoks divide the audience. I think they represent a big tone shift from the Empire's bleakness to something lighter. The last scene would have been much more impactful if we weren't uplifted by some of that brightness that the Ewok and Endor, but they they managed to make to make the ending feel not as dark and not as heavy as we work towards Luke's Red Darth Vader's redemption.

SPEAKER_05 14:09

You know what they say? No one can hit a stormtrooper helmet and get that tone like an Ewok.

SPEAKER_06 14:14

Like a rock thrown by an Ewok. Do Ewok actually ruin the immersion or do they reinforce the theme of hope? And my third hyperspace hot take compared to later Star Wars or more modern Star Wars, there's obviously fewer planets in the original trilogy, a lot of reused environments, limited perspective. The galaxy felt small. And obviously, this was due to multiple things, but one of them being, you know, technical limitations that did impact the scale. And the smaller scope obviously meant a tighter story, which we were saying earlier is actually a good thing about it. So, but I think the galaxy felt small in the original trilogy. The Force is underdeveloped, is my fourth one. Forces is mystical, vague, spiritual. It's really hard to pin down, which is great, but it lacked structure, it lacked that deeper expl exploration. Obviously, the later films and content helped address that, create that balance and talk about prophecy and Jedi philosophy a lot more. Is mystery better than explanation? You know, I I mentioned that before. Is the lack of detail actually where people get creative and become explorative, or does it limit the storytelling?

SPEAKER_05 15:19

I think we are spoiled for characters as prequel fans and and being raised on that that Star Wars and and going to the cinema to see that Star Wars and the technology that we get to be born into. I wonder if that would have been the same. Exactly right.

SPEAKER_06 15:34

And my very last one is that Leia Organa deserved more. They're my five Dark Side hot takes.

SPEAKER_05 15:40

Yeah, I love I love what you said, and I'm I am in agreement with you. So Dark Side. I'm gonna start once again with Return of the Jedi. The whole plan to save solo is a bit of a stretch. Surely they didn't plan all of it. Did they plan that there was a rankles there?

SPEAKER_06 15:54

Yeah, we've talked about this. We've talked about this a bit of surprise, surprise, wasn't it?

SPEAKER_05 15:58

Yeah. It's they couldn't have known because Luke didn't look like he knew that that that platform was gonna make him fall down into the rank or pick.

SPEAKER_06 16:05

Yeah, I'm sure if he did, he would have taken his lightsaber with him.

SPEAKER_05 16:08

Yeah. There's no way he would have known everything, but somehow he knows Luke is gonna put the lightsaber into R2D2 and R2D2 is gonna pop that sucker out. Ewoks would not have won. I've got to agree with you. Ewoks Ewoks would not have won if Andor Empire showed up.

SPEAKER_06 16:25

I think if the Ewoks tried to take on the Empire, and surely they had prior when they were initially settling or invading Endor. You know, surely there'd been some conflict. They wouldn't have just been sitting there hopelessly waiting for some people to come along to help them. I think it's yeah, I I would agree with you.

SPEAKER_05 16:43

I know I said this before, Ariane being spoilt for choice when it comes to force users, but when you compare them to Luke Skolger, he's just not that powerful. Wow. Yeah. That's a mic drop moment, literally.

SPEAKER_06 16:54

I literally had nothing.

SPEAKER_05 16:55

Well, come on. Like if you compare Luke Skalger, I'm talking about Empire Strikes Back Luke. Yeah, Jedi King.

SPEAKER_06 17:01

You've got to remember we're not seeing Luke at the height of his of his powers like we do a lot of these other characters. You know, he's still he's still learning to become a Jedi. And that's what a lot of fans complain about. That we don't get to see that Luke Jedi Knight become Jedi Master. We don't get to see that storyline. And I think fans are craved, craved for that. And I think if ever there was an opportunity, it was to continue to fill that fill that void with additional content. But yeah, I I would say for sure, but yeah, we're I I think the journey from him to from farm boy to Jedi Knight is much slower than what we're probably used to seeing in in more later content from from George Lucas.

SPEAKER_05 17:44

Yeah, and you're absolutely right. Like around he is the truest form of a hero's journey. So I think there is those elements too, but I just thought in comparison, he's just not as strong as your characters like Qui-Gon or Obi-Wan or Mace Windu in the prequels, which confused me. But I think there's a sense of realism to Luke Skywalker though, on a positive. Yeah, you can relate. Yeah. I also think that the love triangle between Luke, Hahn, and Leia being explored in in Empire was a little bit of an error in storytelling. I get it, and I get why George Lucas took that route. I don't get it. But then to turn it around, but then to turn around and be and do brother and sister.

SPEAKER_06 18:27

Yeah, I don't get it. If he had that intent the whole time, why?

SPEAKER_04 18:30

Is the question.

SPEAKER_06 18:33

Yes. I probably for the audience response, you know, and for people to go away and go, oh my god, you know, like even that in itself is going to spread spread awareness about Star Wars and the film. You know, I think he probably did it for a oh my gosh moment, similar to Luke I'm your father. Probably the the greatest moment in Star Wars, Star Wars history and lore, I would think.

SPEAKER_05 18:55

Yes. How long do you think Darth Vader was floating in space after the Millennium Falcon shot his TIE fighter out of the way?

SPEAKER_06 19:07

Oh, that's a really good question. And I don't think they've answered that one, have they? I mean, there therein lies at at least another six, seven episodes to explain.

SPEAKER_05 19:15

Do you think while he's spinning he's thinking about spinning as a good trick?

SPEAKER_04 19:22

This really takes me back. I've seen this before. Oh, that's right. Oh. Anyway, that's how did I get into this? How did I get into this spaceship? What is this? Qui-gon told me to stay in this cockpit. Alright.

SPEAKER_06 19:39

And I'm still here. And maybe that's what happened in space. Maybe Qui-Gon came to him and he said, stay in that cockpit. Yeah, don't go back to that Death Star.

SPEAKER_05 19:48

It's about to blow. Alright, and I think that's what we've got time for. Is there more things that we want to talk about?

SPEAKER_06 20:44

I think we've summed it up really well. And interestingly, we both connected a lot on our dark dark side hot takes.

SPEAKER_05 20:51

So Well now it's about to get into a tutor. So get ready. The Force Conversations podcast versus the bearded saber guy. Here it goes. Empire Strikes Back is more monumental than Revenge of the Sith. Is it true? We're gonna find out next. Let's go. I get the privilege of opening our debate. Empire Strikes Back is more monumental than Revenge of the Sith. For the Positive Team, we have forced conversations. Andre and Mike, two friends united by their love of Star Wars, sharing knowledge and lore through their very own podcast. You can watch their podcast on Spotify, YouTube, and connect with them on social media through Facebook, Instagram, and more.

SPEAKER_01 21:44

I am Andre. I am a huge fan of Boba Fett. I'm in the 501st. I'm a scout trooper, sand trooper, and I'm Boba Fett. One of my favorite things about being a Star Wars fan is doing the charity events for the 501st. And uh geez, I just love Star Wars, man.

SPEAKER_00 22:00

I'm Mike, I am a co-host of the podcast with Andre. My three things aren't gonna be as interesting as his related to Star Wars wise. I was born in the 70s, so I grew up with the original trilogy from my dad and basically fell in love with Star Wars and and almost like sci-fi in general, because of Star Wars. I'm a grandfather, I have a wife of 15 years, and I live my life based off of my faith. So those are probably the biggest things about me.

SPEAKER_06 22:26

Yeah, thanks for being on the show, guys. It's um it's amazing to have you here. So stepping into the arena today, he's a man who lives and breathes, the dark side of storytelling, the myth, the tragedy, the operatic chaos of a galaxy falling apart, and representing revenge of the Sith today. So I'm the only bearded saber guy, a content creator and lightsaber enthusiast, focused on Star Wars, saber spinning, and beard care. He's a Jericho. Australia ambassador and TikTok creator, and he shares videos featuring lightsaber unboxings, spinning techniques, and lifestyle content. You can check him out on his Instagram handle at the Bearded Sabre Guy.

SPEAKER_02 23:01

Thanks, Rogue. Thanks, Odie. And yeah, love to be here with Michael and Andre. So thank you. My name's Adrian. I'm from Brisbane, Australia. I started the Bearded Sabre Guy journey January of last year. Bit of a hold on it towards the end of last year, but looking at lightsabers from a few different companies. I just enjoy collecting a few of them from sound fonts, you know, working on the spinning techniques. Definitely not up there with a lot of the guys that you see out on the content creation pages. Like those guys are wild, man. There's some there's some insane stunts that go on. So props to them. And yeah, as you mentioned, love the beard care. I just love a good looking beard. Yeah, I like to grow it. I still keep it nice and neat and tidy for work. Married the two boys who I like getting involved in Star Wars and lightsabers, and I'm always having uh having an argument around who's gonna be Darthmor for a day. So very relevant to what's going on in Star Wars right now. So I love being here and thank you very much.

SPEAKER_05 23:51

In a tutor, it's the same as it will be. Three ways to score this. We have Star Wars law references for point one. We have clear evidence for point two at delivery of facts and points in the round. There's a mark out of five for each point per round. Each debater should get a mark out of 15 per round, equating to a final mark out of 45. And this will define our victor, who of course will receive a shirt and cert, t-shirt with a special tutor design and a certificate to say, hey, you've won. Well done. Round one, we're about to kick things off. We have force conversations coming in with their first points. Everybody, let's get ready to rumble. May the force be with you all.

SPEAKER_00 24:32

I'm sure we could all go off of like iconic plot twists in movies and stuff like that and kind of debate which one is is more you know appealing to the Star Wars fans and bigger. I'm gonna go off of two aspects based off of the dialogue and the cinematics in the movie, right? So, like the core of the movie, what you're seeing on the screen. And the rest of the Star Wars franchise, I would say the dialogue can sometimes come off as corny or clunky. Um, there's a lot of scenes where you know the the lines feel forced or not really genuine. And Empire Strikes Back, the dialogue is easily the best in the franchise to the point where the conversations that they have and it feels real. It feels like real conversations that people would have. The comical lines such as Leia's scruffy-looking nerf herder help keep the movie from becoming too dark and too serious, right? Um, at the same time, the audience sees Han and Leia's secret romance bubble beneath their constant arguing. Every line in Empire Strikes Back feels like it belongs in the movie. It also doesn't have a single wasted scene in it, right? So the perfect example of the screenplay being polished from the first movie. The movie opens with a literal Star Wars. The Empire is trying to stuff snuff out the remaining rebels on Hoth. After that, it contrasts Luke downbeat training with Yoda and Dagobah with the Han Leah and Chewy Highstakes asteroid escape. The movie grows its characters throughout meaningful hardships throughout the entirety of the movie. Then it brings the cast back together for a climactic finale in the clouds of Bestman. And this is where I would throw in the iconic plot twist of Darth Vader being Luke's father, being one of the biggest plot twists in cinematic history.

SPEAKER_02 26:01

Mike, well done, mate. Absolutely cracking opening statement. Empire Strikes Back is rightly considered, you know, one of the most iconic, if not the iconic Star Wars and you know, sci-fi movie of all time, would definitely agree with that. For for my point, Revenge of the Sith for me is the most important Star Wars. Star Wars film made. No other movie carries the burden that this movie changes the whole system of Star Wars and the story that it is, where an entire civilization collapses, the fall of the Republic, a democracy manipulated and surrounding itself in fear and everything that the dark side and the empire and that Palpatine is bringing down behind the scenes. It's the destruction of the Jedi Order, Guardians of Peace, wiped out in betrayal without even knowing it was coming, just completely uh shut down at a moment's notice. And then the you know the rise of the Galactic Empire, tyranny that's that's born through invasion and and you know, thunderous applause as well. It's the the the biggest point for me, it comes down to the creation of Darth Vader, the most iconic villain in all of cinema history, forged from what is a broken man that was trying to save the love of his life, and in turn trying to save his children from a world of you know despair and fear and hatred. You know, all of this happens just in in one film, which is just crazy to think how it unfolds. No other Star Wars movie for me holds on that level of that weight of narrative. Empire Strikes Back gives us one of the greatest twists in film history ever. Like the it's the turning point of Darth Vader, Obi-Wan broken down into exile, and the Empire jumping to fruition. Revenge of the Sith is the soul of Star Wars.

SPEAKER_01 27:36

I just think Empire Strikes Back has more of an importance because Luke is coming to find his own life. He's realizing who he is as a person. The twist of Vader being his father had to be explained in Return of the Jedi, even more because I mean, in return of the Jedi, of Yoda's like, yeah, he is. So him not believing it. Like, I just think that that alone is is so important to Star Wars. The darkness of it, you know, it starts with war, it ends with the iconic twist. I just it's what Star Wars should be. This is gonna be round two.

SPEAKER_06 28:14

I think so far. I certainly don't have a horse in this race yet, but I'm enjoying the chaos between the two. It's really heating up. Take it away, force conversations.

SPEAKER_00 28:23

Empire Strikes Back is one of the most impressive sequels of all time and all of cinema, not just in Star Wars. All these new aspects of what sci-fi could be, and people were interested in watching something that was different than a lot of the movies that were coming out at the time. Empire Strikes Back managed to set the bar even higher with its fantastic character dialogue, dynamic locales, nail-biting action. The movie has a range of color from white, you know, snows of Hoth to the darkest greens of Dagaba, the soft orange sky of Bespin, all of which improve on the start colorless Death Star and Sepia Sands of Tatooine that made up a new hope, right? So the even just the color aspect difference of the movies were drastic. I think the the most realistic ending of all Star Wars movies is in this movie as well. While Darth Vader's I Am Your Father line, it's certainly iconic. We can all agree on that. Like, you know, we can all imagine what people thought, like day one sitting in the theater opening weekend, hearing that line and gasping and being like, wait a minute, what did I just see? But I would even say Han Solo's carbonite freezing was arguably just as shocking, right? Like it was just out of nowhere. And the fact that they did that to somebody, like you're sitting there going, Wait, what just happened? Is he still alive? What does this mean? Right? Just the the the sheer weight of that and and not knowing by the end of the movie what that meant was pretty crazy. Empire Strike Back subverts all of the happy ending expectations. When I think of new movies like like the Avengers movies, like the what is it, Infinity or where it ends on this cliffhanger, you don't know. Movies like Star Wars help pave the way for that for all movies and sequel trilogies, right? Like this movie laid out the groundwork for future movies to take this from. I would even say the movie like it pushed Luke and punished Luke for leaving his training with Yoda early. You know, there was stuff that he didn't get to complete and didn't get to realize. It punished Han for trusting Lando, right? Like this guy that he had known for a long time. The darker ending of Empire Strikes Back kind of helped set you know the middle franchise of these first three movies and all future Star Wars to come, right? Like so I would say most Star Wars took aspects of both, you know, A New Hope and Empire Strikes Back, and basically that laid the groundwork for all of the remaining movies.

SPEAKER_02 30:33

Completely agree again that uh Empire Strikes Back is one of the best sequels. I would also you know point out that Revenge of the Sith itself closes out a trilogy with so much darkness and so much emotion throughout it. And I I think I think that's where Revenge of the Sith really highlights a lot of its impact on the Star Wars universe as we know it today. The prequels to storytelling of of Anakin becoming Vader and his relationship both with Padme and Obi-Wan are really you know the two of the biggest relationships that forged his demise. Just to touch on the planets, Empire had some of the most iconic planets going around in the Star Wars universe. Again, I would argue that you look at the planets that came through on Revenge of the Sith, Coruscant, Kashyyk, you know, really highlighting the biggest, the biggest city planet that goes around, you know, the the population that that happened there with the Jedi Temple and the Senate and the political center of the galaxy, you know, Kashyyyk with one of the most iconic characters, like Chewbacca reigning down Supreme. I would definitely argue the planets themselves highlight a lot more than than than the weight of some of these Empire Strike Back planets, and that's big purely because of the storytelling involved. I did touch on the uh the emotional stakes that Empire the Revenge of the Sith does have. And while Empire ends in uncertainty, Revenge of the Sith completely ends in devastation. You watch yeah, you watch relationships between Padme and Anakin completely go to its peak around how they feel about each other and the protection that that Anakin has for her and what he what what ends he goes through to protect her and the the dreams that he has and seeing her die over and over again, he he will go to the ends of the earth and the ends of any planet to save her. That that emotional connection I don't feel is shown in any other Star Wars film um or many other films ever in history, to be to be honest. The friendships around uh Anakin and Obi-Wan, and you look at, as I mentioned, one of the planets that before, but I didn't mention Mustafa. The the most iconic and most biggest emotional stake that happens on a Mustafa is is the battle between Anakin and Obi-Wan. Hands down to say, one of the best uh sword fighting lightsaber battles of all time. The cor the choreography that's just made in that in that scene is just un unparalleled and unmatched. So the emotional stakes in in Revenge of the Sith for me is is where it's is where it's at. Yeah, look at the Jedi slaughtering, well, sorry, the Jedi slaughtered by their own troops, as I said earlier, just it complain came completely out of nowhere. And the emotional connection that we had, you know, to the Jedi from back in the 70s when Star Wars first started from Empire Strikes back through to now, and we see them just get completely decimated by their own. It's just a dramatic irony, and it makes it so much more brutal. And the lines of Obi-Wan, you know, you're my brother, Anakin, I loved you. I think as a father as well, those sort of lines change your mental and and how you interpret those lines. Revenge of the Sith in closing is the the emotional stakes that really paved the rest of the way for for Star Wars.

SPEAKER_00 33:31

I think I heard the sappy violin in the background, uh little you know the melancholy music. Like, man.

SPEAKER_06 33:37

Sabers are out, ladies and gents.

SPEAKER_01 33:39

Revenge of the Sith has all of these great emotional scenes, like all of the Jedi being wiped out. But most of the people that are being wiped out are B C D players, you know. All the A players we know are gonna survive onto the original trilogy. And Empire Strikes Back. We see Han go into the Carbonite, and we know now he survives, but during the filming, Harrison Ford did not want to come back for another episode. So we lose friendships between Chewbacca and Han and Luke, and then a relationship between Leia and Han at that point. Like we didn't know that they were gonna come back. We already knew that Obi-Wan survived, that Yoda survived, and that we were gonna have all these a player Jedi's in the original trilogy. So that's why I think that Empire Strikes Back is more emotional than Revenge of the Sith is. We enter into round three, the final round of the Echuta.

SPEAKER_06 34:39

Yeah, I'm I'm really excited for round three. I think it's gonna come down to the wire, and I can't wait to see who comes out on top.

SPEAKER_05 34:45

We've got false conversations wrapping this up. Round three, let's go.

SPEAKER_00 34:49

I'm gonna go. Luke finds out that Darth Vader's his father. When you remember the conversations between Luke and Obi-Wan, and how in the New Hope, Obi-Wan basically tells him that his father was killed by Darth Vader, right? And makes this whole story up about, you know, his father being, you know, this great Jedi, this pilot, all this stuff, right? The stuff that we were able to finally see when it came to episodes one, two, and three, when we were able to see in the Clone Wars, right? This buildup of this short little dialogue line that Obi-Wan says to him in episode four. We get to this moment where we kind of feel like already this battle is not going Luke's way, right? So at this point, you're thinking, oh man, this character that I came to kind of like, you know, root for, is he gonna die here? Like, how is he getting out of this? Because there's clearly no way he's getting out of this unscathed. And then we get that line. The fact that Vader took the time to reveal that he is his father, and the shock, the absolute terror in Luke's face, where part of him doesn't want to admit it, but there's no reason for Darth Vader to make this up. So Luke has got to now struggle with this thing that like Obi-Wan maybe even possibly lied to him, right? So he's dealing with that on one aspect. But I think the other thing, too, is that throughout the whole movie, though, Luke's journey from where he started in his background with the force and his knowledge of the force and his strength of the force to this moment where he's fighting Darth Vader. Like, we've seen him grow, we've seen him become basically his own man, we've seen him mature into this. I wouldn't say full Jedi, but I mean he's well on his way, right? Like you can see those things. So part of you is also hoping, like, hey, we want this protagonist to like be this big character that we know he can be. And in this moment, it feels like everything you've hoped, everything you dreamed of, everything you've wanted for this character just absolutely came crashing down. My reason for saying Empire Strikes Back is better than Revenge of the Sith is for this one reason. When I watched Revenge of the Sith, I knew Anakin's outcome, I knew where he was leading, I knew where he was going. But while it was big, and I agree with you, the the Anakin Obi-Wan lightsaber battle and the dialogue in that scene. I will say that one scene, probably one of the best simple scenes, like just for that portion of Star Wars in general. Heart pulling, yeah, all of it, right? Violins playing, symphony orchestra making you ball, all of it. But this moment, not knowing and being completely unprepared, I think just blew me away. And I think that's why this movie stands out so much in the lore of Star Wars, is because of the fact that this moment stood out for me, and it stood out for so many people. This is one of the most quoted Star Wars lines. Like, even in like stupid movies like Tommy Boy, when he's speaking into the fan, like he uses this Darth Vader scene, right? Whether you're a Star Wars fan or not, this line, this scene, everybody understands it and gets it.

SPEAKER_02 37:47

Mike, awesome closing. We agree on a lot of the points that we're making with each other, and you know, the battle between Vader and Luke, again, one of the most iconic in history. And then the line of, you know, I am your father, just I think the weight of the words and that emotional connection that I mentioned before with Battle of Obi-Wan and Anakin on Mustafa, the words of you're my brother, I loved you, I think that in itself bears a lot more weight, and and the emotion that Julon McGregor portrayed in that scene was was just unfathomable. You could see the emotion in his face and his eyes as as Anakin is just laying there on the dirt, burning away in the lava. But then when you look at Revenge of the Sith and look at the jewel of Obi-Wan and Anakin, and not only that, there's other battles in that movie, and Count Dooku and Anakin, you know, and and fighting Yoda Insidious, the the acrobatics of that scene is just unparalleled again, where they're just flying through the Senate seating, just going at each other, flying through the air, and just throwing those those pods at each other was just absolutely insane. And and when you think about from a cinematic point of view, for me, that opening scene in Revenge of the Sith is just next level. You're zooming in from the big battle cruiser, and then it just shows the entire planet and then the smaller ships just going at it. That I still love that scene every single time I watch it, and the the opening chorus on battle just really highlights the cinematic spectacle that that Revenge of the Sith is. The whole movie balances out politics, war, emotion, action on on the highest scale. And while Empire is one of the most icon has one of the most iconic duels, Revenge of the Sith has multiple legendary confrontations and actual galaxy changing consequences. The most iconic of all of them, the the Anakin and Obi Wan on Mustafar. So all of that for me was yeah, actual galaxy changing consequences for what shaped the rest of Star Wars moving forward.

SPEAKER_01 39:48

For the political reasons, I mean, in a new hope, it's it's said that the Senate's been disbanded. So we don't really have politics as a whole. We have the Empire and the Rebellion in Empire Strikes Back. That's all we got. It's some of the best lightsabers in Revenge of the Sith, yeah. But we were limited by time by the time. Vader knew that Luke was his kid. He was toying with Luke, one-hand saber battling the entire time. We already knew this. We knew from one of the comics, you know, Boba Fett telling Vader that this is your son, you know, that this is his last name, Skywalker. Vader knows he's just toying with him this entire battle, and then he's like, No, I am your father. It's got it's got war, it's a war movie with some dark horror bits being the the asteroid scene where they go into the space slug. You got the the minox and then escaping. You it's it's not one singular style of movie, it's it's horror, it's war, it's Star Wars. There has to be a winner.

SPEAKER_05 40:57

And so, Rogue, I want you to break down your points.

SPEAKER_06 41:00

You know, I've been reflecting as well, and we're not arguing good versus bad here. We're arguing two pillars really of the same legacy, and that that came out really strongly throughout the debate. You know, I would say that listening to Force Conversations and Bearded Saber Guy, one reshaped storytelling expectations and the other shaped the entire saga's meaning. Up until the last round, Forced Conversations were two points ahead. Bearded Saber Guy closed incredibly strongly and reminded us just what a cinematic spectacle Revenge of the Sith was. And I've actually got these guys finishing neck and neck on 35 out of 45. I'd be really keen to hear what your thoughts were, Odie.

SPEAKER_05 41:43

The sharing of the cinematic colour aspects, the realistic endings, the carbonite freezing and subverting ending was was really, really strong. Bearded Sabre guy closing up the trilogy was a huge point. And then the planets versus the other planets. You know, you could say it's around technology. The rebuttal from Forced Conversations around knowing how to survive and losing friends is also there. And something that I love about the original trilogy is it sits with friendship so well. It was such a hard round to mark. And I have to come back to the debate topic, which is Empire Strikes Back is more monumental than Revenge of the Sith. Yoda Insidious opening battle, the star war in itself, biggest star war in cinema, the final piece of Vader. So if we're talking around moments, it was it was a hard decision to make. So you both had really good points. But if it's more monumental, I would have to give it to the bearded saber. You've come through by one point. It was it was very, very tough. The fact that you've listed the moments and come out with all those monumental moments saw you through to the end.

SPEAKER_01 42:54

Mike and Andre, what are your thoughts? Listen, I get it. I understand. I just want to congratulate Bearded. You know, he he he had some really great points. I thought we had it, but you know, maybe next time.

SPEAKER_00 43:08

I'm upset and I want to go to the judges.

SPEAKER_01 43:10

I think it's ridiculous.

unknown 43:12

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 43:13

Can I get a recap? No, I just can't. No, I thought I agree with Andre. I thought, I thought, I thought Adrian did a really good job. He made a lot of really good points. Uh, none that I can really knock. And I know he said too, like, there's a lot of stuff that we brought up that he's like, hey, look at I can't, I can't, I can't go against that. Like, that made a lot of sense. And I think this is a hard one to sit there for you guys, even to sit and judge and go, oh, well, yeah, no, he made enough points. I'd never been part of a debate before. I had a blast. It was very awesome to meet all of you guys and get to go through all of this with you guys. Yeah. So I I really appreciate it. Thank you for sure.

SPEAKER_02 43:45

Awesome. Great time, guys. Thank you so much. Uh, to be honest, I was I was worried from out the gate. You guys brought up those opening points. I'm like, I am done for. I was just, yeah, I'm quivering. I'm like, nah, this is not this is not gonna go my way. And Mike, you said it like for me, that's just really resonated how you said it is that we weren't coming into this or coming out of it disagreeing or or saying that oh yeah, I've changed my mind. There was no but to that. It was like, I I agree with you, there's no butt. You know, I think there's just so much happening on both sides, and man, I'm yeah, really grateful for the win. I really appreciate it. Thank you so much. I again haven't had this sort of debate or any sort of debate like this before. So really, really love being a part of it. I think there's a lot more we can do with just these two movies themselves and dive into more more debates in in certain areas. And so I'll be looking forward to seeing what comes next. How do we reach out to you to purchase some some helmets?

SPEAKER_01 44:38

Oh, you can uh you can find me at CoorsFet on Instagram. Coors is in you know the beer, coors, and then Fett you can find my

SPEAKER_05 44:49

Mike and Andre at Force Conversations. You can find them on Spotify. You can find them on wherever you find your podcasts. But you can also reach out to them in socials, Facebook, Instagram, and more.

SPEAKER_06 45:01

And you can find the Bidded Sabre Guy and his Instagram handle at the Bidded Saberguy. Just want to say thanks, guys.

SPEAKER_01 45:09

I really appreciate it you having us on.

SPEAKER_02 45:11

Yeah. Likewise, just echo that. Massive thank you and had a lot of fun.

SPEAKER_05 45:15

If you did not agree with our decision today, you can vote on our Instagram poll. Head over to Odrog underscore culture and cast your vote. Say what you think. Tag them. Say whatever comes to your mind. We love an opinion. So now it's time for our next segment. Honor the As I said it, it is honor the gore time. And here we are, ready to go. We've got some great questions from our listeners. This first one comes from our good friend of the podcast, Mr. Oliver of Wiltshire, Scone King of Kent. He asks, what Jedi master or character do you relate with the most?

SPEAKER_06 46:04

Probably Plocoon, Quinlan Voss, and Kip Durren, because they all represent very different sides of what it means to be a Jedi. Plocoon is probably the Jedi I respect most. He's calm, compassionate, and powerful. What always stood out was how much he genuinely cared about the clones under his command, especially Commander Wolf. His blue lightsaber fits that protector role perfectly, even though he did have an orange, or I would say almost yellowy orange lightsaber early on. But he was also one of the few Jedi that connected to electric judgment as a force power. It was basically a lightside version of Force Lightning. Then there's Quinlan Voss, who feels almost like the opposite. He's messy, he's emotional, he's unpredictable, but incredibly human. His green lightsaber reflects how deeply connected he is to the force. Psychometry, I think it's called. Ability. Being able to read memories from objects makes him one of the most unique Jedi in Star Wars. He carries emotional weight in a way most Jedi don't. And I think that's what makes him so relatable. Kip Darren, as I mentioned before, is probably the most fascinating to me. So he's obviously a Star Wars Legends character, and he was considered one of the most powerful Jedi. Raw force potential mixed with anger, trauma, and redemption. His purple lightsaber really symbolizes that balance between darkness and discipline. Plocoon represents control and compassion. Quinlan Voss represents intuition and humanity. And Kip Darren represents struggle and redemption. And I think together they kind of capture the best parts of Star Wars, and probably all three reflect who I like to be at different times. So they're my three, Odie. How about you?

SPEAKER_05 47:41

I'd have to go with five. I've got five down, but I'm going to narrow it down. I think if it was one character, I'd have to say R2 D2. But if I was going to come together with all five characters, I'd go Han Solo, Qui-Gon, Kit Fisto, R2 D2, and Old Gamer. So I get the job done. I don't take things too seriously. I use humour to engage and encourage others. I believe in being a good friend and a good teacher. Loyal, reliable, always willing to dive in and have a go. And I guess that's how I am as well, is that I don't hold back and think about things all that often. I just kind of dive in and have a crack.

SPEAKER_06 48:13

Did the lightsabers or force abilities have anything to do with it, or not really for you?

SPEAKER_05 48:17

Not really. I think it's more about their demeanour and who and who they are. Yeah, sure.

SPEAKER_06 48:21

Not not so much their cool lightsaber. Alright. I get it.

SPEAKER_05 48:26

But there's your answer. Good friend of the podcast, Mr. Oliver of Wilchie, Scone King of Kent.

SPEAKER_06 48:30

Thank you, King of Kent. It's very important.

SPEAKER_05 48:36

So the deal with Honor the Gore is you can type in your name as anything and I will read it out, whether it's true or not. But of course, that one, that last one is of course true. Crazy 8 asks, Macewindu, well it's more of a comment. Mace Windu should not have had a purple lightsaber. He should have just had the green or the blue, which were the standard in the original trilogy. And the only reason he got purple is just because he's played by Samuel L. Jackson and Samuel L. Jackson asked for it. Do you agree with that? I actually disagree with that.

SPEAKER_06 49:05

Or at least, well, I think Samuel L. Jackson definitely wanted purple. That can't be argued. Starles has always been good at taking real-world production decisions and building meaningful lore around them afterwards. So I think over time, purple actually became the perfect lightsaber. Yep. That's what makes his his purple blade work symbolic. You know, he was flirting between the dark side and the light. His lightsaber technique, lightsaber form was Vapad, which is obviously chelling darkness and aggression without falling to the dark side. Whether George made that decision after Samuel L. Jackson chose purple to give it deeper lore like that, who really knows? But to me, I would have to disagree and say that that lightsaber suits Mace Winnu perfectly.

SPEAKER_05 49:45

How about you, Eddie? Yeah, there's two things that I want to say about this. Probably could have been green or blue. But George Lucas was known for making changes to Star Wars lore on the spot. Jon Stewart asked where Obi-Wan Kenobi's home planet was. And then George Lucas came out and said, Oh, it's too John. Whenever George Lucas says something, it just becomes law.

SPEAKER_06 50:04

God speaks, you listen.

SPEAKER_05 50:05

Yeah. And I don't create Samuel Jackson saying that there's going to be a purple lightsaber. I don't I actually don't think that we would have had a variation of lightsabers in canon if that didn't happen. Of course, there were variations in canon from comic books and everything else, but that wasn't really considered canon until George Lucas kind of said. It was all like a legends guide.

SPEAKER_06 50:27

I think it's safe to say he probably didn't put a lot of a lot of meaning behind the blue and green lightsabers before you know the the prequel the prequel trilogy, I would have thought. We might have time for one more question.

SPEAKER_05 50:37

Do we have time for one more question? Or it'd have to be quick. It'd have to be real quick. We could do this quick. Billy T from Australia asks, which separatist droid is the best droid?

SPEAKER_04 50:51

Thousands of them. Tenth level.

SPEAKER_05 50:57

I think I know what you're gonna say. Shall we count down? I think I'm gonna say the same. Let's find out. You ready? Three, two, one, droidicas.

unknown 51:08

No, dad.

SPEAKER_05 51:09

We just became space best friends, didn't we? Yeah, we just knew it. Yeah, we just became part of the same squadron. If you know more about this stuff and you want to say whether we get something wrong, hey, please tell us because we're always open to learning and listening. So if you know something that we don't and you want to share that with us, or if there's something that you disagree with that we say, you can always reach out to us, oddrog underscore culture at Instagram. You can email us at oddrog.culture at gmail.com.

SPEAKER_06 51:34

You better believe it. A massive thanks to everyone who tuned in today, sent some questions through Front of the Gore and continue to support the show. Community side of this podcast is honestly one of the best parts of doing it. And these conversations are always better because of the fans getting involved. Got plenty more debates, deep dives, and hyperspace level chaos still to come. But until next time, Odie, may the force be with you. May the force be with you.