03 Phoebe Barnard on the science of climate and need for public engagement

I’m chatting online with prize-winning global change scientist and film-maker Phoebe Barnard in her borrowed home in Ireland, as the sun breaks through on her and her happy dog. 

We talk about Phoebe’s life as a climate scientist, about international negotiations and processes that bring countries together, about film making for positive stories. She describes having to leave beautiful Washington State in the US. “We work on change, after all," she says.” We talk about the need for new thinking, a new story. “We can choose” she says of taking agency and ownership. 

“Feminism is a public good mindset,” she also says. “We need to move towards more feminism and a world of greater ancient-culture influence.”

Phoebe’s book recommendation is Robin Wall Kimmerer’s Braiding Sweetgrass.

Her heroine and mentee: Abidemi Raji, Nigerian researcher at Cornell University. 

Her recommended action: recognise you are not alone. Join something with others, like a climate repair café and the climate majority project. 

The Climate Restorers films: https://www.theclimaterestorers.com/

The Climate Repair Café films: https://www.climaterepaircafe.com/  

My new book will be supporting this podcast, and will be published in March 2027. It is called "Bamboo and Butterfly: Transformative Stories for Climate and Nature Recovery."

Transcript

SPEAKER_01 0:06

Camera Hitchen, Phoebe Vanam, great to have you on the show. Warm welcome. Global change scientist, futurist, filmmaker and producer, Fulbright Scholar, from the University of Washington in the west of the US, via Grenoble, in Ireland, heading towards the UK, founder of Mini Leading NGOs. A great experience of the big international stuff and the small stuff that makes us tick. So it's lovely to have you on the show, Phoebe. Warm welcome.

SPEAKER_00 0:38

Huge privilege to speak with you always, Jules. Thank you so much.

SPEAKER_01 0:42

Great. Well, let's start with a little bit about you, your location where you are at the moment. You described the view across the fjord just a few moments ago. Your home place and kind of where you're where you're heading for and your your kind of interests that take you heading towards the UK.

SPEAKER_00 1:03

It was an absolute uh torture to have to leave such a beautiful place as the Pacific Northwest of the USA. Snowy volcanoes, beautiful, rolling, mostly organic farmlands, island-dotted coasts, uh, you know, deep, deep dark forests. And it was a place that I had lived for eight and a half years after moving back from decades working in Africa, hated to go, but realized that we could not do our work, my husband, the filmmaker, or or I, the scientist, under a Trump administration. So off we went to France to take up an offer from a French university there. Didn't go very well with a lot of administrative disorganization. So we're cooling our heels for a little bit, working from a friend's house in Ireland while setting up the next plan. It's all good, and change is wonderful. And uh we work on change, so we embrace it, right? All of us. And I could not have a more exalted, glittering view of this beautiful fjord and green rolling lands as we have from our friend's house.

SPEAKER_01 2:20

Lovely, fantastic. Yeah, so kind of opportunity and threat are kind of run run side by side, don't they, on the same kind of rails that something knocks you off the rail and actually maybe that kind of opens up a space for something exciting from there.

SPEAKER_00 2:35

Often does, and one has to be nimble in these times, nimble, nimble and agile.

SPEAKER_01 2:41

Great. Well, could we start with the international stuff? Um uh you've you've been involved in a lot of international discussions and negotiations, creation of kind of common viewpoints and protocols and a whole range of other things over many years. A UN negotiator for the Convention on Biodiversity, uh, one of the leads for the Millennium Ecosystem Assessment. I was involved from the UK end, um, and also for the UK's uh national ecosystem assessment. I mean, how did how do those international efforts look today? Um, very important in establishing a sort of sense that we're all in this kind of one world together. Um they've not disappeared, they're just kind of under threat. But I wonder whether you wanted to kind of make some observations about how you saw them working and where they kind of have taken us to in the late 2020s.

SPEAKER_00 3:35

Oh my God, Jules, you're such a sleuth. You could be really uh Sherlock Holmes, uh, some of the things that you've dug up about me. It's it's a very tumultuous time that we're living in. And like many of us, I think I experienced a set of epiphanies along my particular road as a biodiversity and climate and ecosystem scientist engaged in, you know, negotiating at the UN on behalf of the government of Namibia, which I was working for for a decade. Um the Convention on Biological Diversity, the Climate Change Convention, all of the Rio conventions were set up by great visionaries, who I've had the privilege to work with, and we would be mercifully uh mercilessly, I guess more appropriately, uh in a bad state without them. But I realized as one of my first epiphanies that events really were overtaking us, that the systems and uh and and particularly the economic system that we were all living in created a essentially very sisipian task for all of us. It's hard enough to work on conservation and you know, to reduce extinction, reduce climate destabilization at the best of times, without autocracy, without AI, without disinformation and ideologies. And so looking back at many of the things I've done, they they were super important at the time, and I believe they still continue to be important, but they're being completely overrun by this tidal wave, uh, that I think is probably a fairly inevitable but was surprising consequence of having 8.2 billion people on the planet that uh just pressurize everything that we're doing. So I took a decision to step away from my own fields and start to convene work that would help get at the root problems of all of these crises, our polycrises, societal, planetary, and so on.

SPEAKER_01 5:58

And what did that convening look like? I mean, it's partly interdisciplinary, it's speaking across disciplines, it's partly across communities, local to distant to national, people with different kinds of interests. Um, but but it has to start somewhere, doesn't it? I mean, it's a human problem that we're dealing with. It's just that it's uh feels like a really big one that's weighing down our shoulders from time to time.

SPEAKER_00 6:23

Absolutely. And and I guess one of the great things about uh becoming uh silver-haired is that you you you get to uh adopt a confidence about doing uncomfortable things that you might not have done in your 20s and 30s and 40s. So I realized at some point that I had a certain convening power that even if I didn't fully understand a topic in depth like, you know, global financial flows, I could bring people in the room together that did know those things very deeply and had fantastic experience at shifting the way things worked. So I started to work on putting together various roundtables on governance, on finances, on preparedness, on regeneration, nature and climate recovery, to put people together that I felt were not really talking together about the key problems of the day and needed to be. And, you know, I could go into individual initiatives of that, but at this stage, you know, that that's where I'm putting most of my effort now.

SPEAKER_01 7:36

Uh you you did this amazing thing with the 2019 paper that brought together 15,000 signatories, scientific signatories warning of the climate emergency, which was a language that had only recently appeared. Um, that was a kind of amazing convening uh bringing together something like that. I mean, you know, a single paper doesn't change the world, but it says it says a lot, it says something symbolic in terms of having a large number of people supporting it. Um uh, but it also is a statement of of a particular time and a place and and the concerns and hopes that people have. Um, tell us a bit about how that happened. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 8:20

I I don't want to take credit for that particular scientist warning of a climate emergency, and it was Bill Ripple who convened those authors and he asked me to take part. I think because I'd worked in government and and nonprofits, whereas everybody else on the paper was um an academic, and perhaps because I was a woman, I don't know, or perhaps because I'd been working a lot in the global south, which the others hadn't. But um uh that did have, I think it's now got over 16,000 co-signatories. It was an important step. That said, all of the warnings, including the one that I did lead in 2021 called World Scientists Warnings into Action, uh, all of these warnings have a a danger, I think, a risk, that um, you know, the kind of Peter and the Wolf risk. People, even the media, get tired of too many warnings. And I, having worked in government and and on what what I perhaps uh naively thought of as the real world of action, uh, was impatient with warnings. So that 2021 paper, which had uh several thousand co-signatories from a number of countries, uh that intended to really take the trajectory in a different direction. Okay, we know there's a problem. What are we going to do? How are we going to get there? You know, what kind of a society do we wish to have, and how are we going to get there from here? And that's a question that the two countries that I've been really quite privileged to work with, Namibia and South Africa, had had the opportunity to ask at their own crossroads of history: Namibia from colonial rule, South Africa from apartheid uh undemocratic system into a democratic future. And now I think all of us are at that crossroads. And it behooves all of us to think about these questions now and and really start dialogues in every single country of the world. So, in in my own little way, I'm I'm trying to facilitate that.

SPEAKER_01 10:32

Yes, uh well, great. Um this thing about the, as you say, the kind of uh people, systems, institutions, policymakers, public, um, if they get tired of the warnings, if there's not something that kind of quickly fills the space saying, okay, that's kind of the bad stuff, but this is what you can do about it. We have to kind of elide very quickly into the action and the sense of agency, it strikes me. Um, if people don't feel they can do something, well, they're not going to do something. Um uh and somehow we have to open up that kind of space. I mean, what what thoughts did you have on that? Sometimes you provide people with institutions, mechanisms, join this group, do this thing, help with this thing in your local community. Um, they will all add up um over time. There's that phrase, the next best thing is a lot of things. And maybe that's kind of part of the sort of story in this. Uh, but that can also feel as though it's not quite as powerful and strong as yet another story of avalanches or melting glaciers or sea level rise or the worst storm on record or and so forth, which we are facing every single season, just about, it seems.

SPEAKER_00 11:50

Yeah, yeah, yeah. And and and those headlines still have power, but they are also uh paralyzing for many people. And I feel that the worst state of humanity that you know we we risk right now is a sense of nihilism. Particularly in certain age groups, there's a pretty common narrative. Well, you know, we're screwed. Let's have a party and enjoy life while we can. Phenomenally uh human supremacist, self-centered, uh completely Western and appalling in its state of mind. I I know many of us, and and certainly I'm among them, are in a stage of deep learning with indigenous wisdom and the lessons from civilizations that are ancient. You have looked into that very, very deeply and been an inspiration to me. But the um, you know, the we we are a flash in the pan civilization and we are phenomenally self-centered. And yet the nihilist or fatalist narrative is is really crippling us. So being able to push people away from warnings into how do we prepare? How do we meet the future? And what are the things that we need to do regardless of these ideologically driven debates and denialism that are happening around us? What do we need to do? The the the meeting that I've just come out of looked at, you know, what are the preparedness issues that are um no regrets, if you like. Um, we need to insulate our houses, regardless of whether it's getting hotter or we're heading with the Yamok into a new ice age. We need to insulate our houses. That's a no regrets strategy that everyone should be following and governments should be facilitating. But there's also the the the kind of preparedness that we need in a state of the uh the worst possible, the worst case scenarios. It would be prudent to do this and this and this. And whatever happens, we need to build community and help people plug into that to build their empowerment and agency. So that's very much been um a theme of my scientific work, my policy work, and my film work.

SPEAKER_01 14:23

Well, that's a good good um link to the next next thing, really, because I was in the light of that, it strikes me um that we need to say a bit about what good looks like, you know, where where where might we head towards? And it might be a many many different places. It probably is, it's probably lots of paths in lots of different directions. But but establishing the values and the examples and the kind of paths towards that sort of hope, um, uh we can speculate, but we can also look at where people have been doing stuff that's really interesting already. Um so that brings me to the climate restorers, to the film that that you and John have been making. There are four films, um stories, gorgeous stories of positive change, um uh about about nature-based carbon removal. It's kind of one of the one of the lines that you've used there, tying together the nature recovery with the climate recovery. Um, tell us a bit about um the climate restorers. Great title. It's uh nice. Well, there you you have the sunshine in Ireland already. Look at it.

SPEAKER_00 15:32

I do. It's I I shouldn't have said that it was a glum, dreary day because now it's becoming intolerably sunny, but uh I'm sure it will pass in a in a minute as it always does. I do think that this balance between grim reality of our predicament and the options that are still open to us that we need to be working on with with focus, with steely determination, at scale, at speed, um very much include stabilization of the climate, of our planet, and of the societies that are responding to the destabilization and the population and consumption pressure of ecological overshoot that we've wrought on our on our own species and the biosphere. So these four films that my filmmaker husband John Bowie and I have just done uh in 2025, it was a series called The Climate Restorers that intended to look at not only what's necessary to stabilize the climate, what are people working on, what might work at scale and at speed, and what might not, is uh a response to my feeling that we are in an age of great innovation. And you mentioned the Millennium Ecosystem assessment. And of the scenarios that we put out in the Millennium Assessment, you may remember that one was called Adapting Mosaic, and it was the one that was perceived as the most likely to lead to uh significant uh alignment with the biosphere, with sustainability, with the development goals. And uh that adapting mosaic is basically a story about local experimentation everywhere, that groups, relocalized groups, not um necessarily very plugged into the global economy, will innovate and come up with ideas that may work and may not. Um, but overall we'll have a lot of really good stories to choose from. And that's uh a theme that I think you and I both share, the the value of doing that. But we also looked in the climate restorers at the larger systemic things that are really needed, not technologies per se, although there's hopefully a supplementary benefit to technologies, but what is needed right now to protect our earth and our climate and our civilization? And we concluded that still nature is the only real game in town, and we need to conserve, to rewild, to restore nature because we already have a lot to work with, and it's so much less expensive than throwing billions of dollars at direct air capture plants of huge size and probably no significant future in the USA or elsewhere. So we're looking at uh those kinds of things, but also the mindset shift, the system shift that's required to bring us into a better, humbler, kinder, wiser civilization where we have not only a sense of rights, but a sense of responsibility uh for future generations and the biosphere.

SPEAKER_01 19:08

Fantastic. And give us a couple of examples of of uh of places and people and contexts where that you featured in in the climate restorers, just to kind of ground it in specifics a little bit.

SPEAKER_00 19:22

Well, of course, being an ecosystem scientist, I particularly loved working on uh episode four, film four, which is called ecosystem restoration. And there we drew some parallels, but also some contrasts between the dust bowl in North America, not just the USA, but also parts of central southern Canada in the 1930s, and the degradation over centuries of the Lus Plateau in China. And we went and interviewed um John D. Liu, who is the champion of ecosystem restoration, as you know, uh in uh in the world in many respects, but certainly in China, and uh looked at how governments were engaging or not engaging with the problems and the lessons that they should be learning. And I found that really satisfying to work on, but but also the interviewing some of the soil scientists, like a woman at the University of California system called Asmaret Asifobere, um, an Eritrean American who'd been working in the White House under the Biden administration, um, helping on carbon drawdown and the importance of soil. You wouldn't see that in this administration under Trump, I'm afraid. And so I think we have so much to work with in natural systems. We just have to shift our mindset away from the idea that there are silver bullets in technology and we can make obscene profits. And that's a really business as usual mindset, which is not going to lead us out of this problem.

SPEAKER_01 21:09

Exactly. Um, there's there's quite a lot of discussion. I'm thinking about the ecosystem restoration thing here, that modern economies are founded on on the idea of scarcity to limit limit access so that cost and price gets driven up, to limit supply so price gets driven up, to limit the number of people who are able to access what might be called a a dream of the future, the access to untold riches, um uh which are only ever um accessible to a few people. You've got scarcity on the one hand, and then a kind of a mindset that might be framed certainly around regeneration, but also around abundance, the idea of lots more of the stuff than we currently have or see, because the amounts of Depressed deliberately or accidentally in recent times. So I wonder wonder where you think kind of abundance fits in into this story. It changes the way that we think about in a sort of functional way, what ecosystems produce that's useful to people, but also how we might access them and engage with them and change ourselves in that kind of process of engagement.

SPEAKER_00 22:26

I've just been watching something that you said about that yourself over the last few days, and I absolutely loved it. I think that we are uh heading into a system where even many men are saying to me, Well, we've totally messed up here. And of course, not all men. I've been lucky to work with such incredible men, um, who have vision, who have uh what one might call a feminine or perhaps a public good, common good mindset looking to the future. Uh but the essence that you describe of scarcity versus abundance is a matter of manipulation versus embracing. If we are moving into uh a state where the lessons that we confront of our flash in the pan uh post-modern capitalist world are really discussed and and understood by a lot more people who are currently just spinning in the system trying to make the money to pay the rent or the mortgage, then I think we have a lot of opportunity to make progress. Indigenous mindsets, of course, tend to they're they're variable, but they tend to look seven or more generations into the future and also seven generations into the past for insights about the responsibility and care uh and stewardship with one with which one needs to treat everything in life, our relationships, our planet, our food resources. In fact, the the phrase resources, of course, is often very much a Western construct. So I I do feel that we are moving into perhaps a more feminine or ancient influenced world, and it's not going to be um universal. You know, we have powerful opposing forces right now, obviously. We have the tidal wave of fascism and the military industrial complex wreaking havoc on the world right now this week. And yet um this is where the power of uh innovation persists. And the cynical might say, well, the militarily strong will just destroy and steal the food from the feminine and embracing, and that's happened for millennia in in society, it won't stop. Um but I do think that this civilization has been such a cautionary tale. Yeah. It really has.

SPEAKER_01 25:30

Yes, and the the wonderful book uh The Dawn of Everything by David Graeber and David Wengrow that came out a few years ago. Yeah showed that that to use the phrase civilization as a description of kind of human organization and a way of kind of looking at cultures across across place and time, is that these are down to choice. Um there's there's kind of in the end, nothing inevitable. Um uh the the if we have the agency, if we can create the kind of uh the sense of of well, it's in our hands actually, um, even when things are looking kind of pretty difficult. Um, in the way that you describe these kind of countervailing forces that are are on the increase. Um uh, well, then those choices might lead to a rebuilding, restoration, a change in a completely different kind of direction. Um, and I guess that's where the kind of hope springs from. The burning heart of the story, the burning son of the story comes from that place, I think, a little bit.

SPEAKER_00 26:34

I think a lot of us have a fire in our belly that is driven by anger and frustration and needs to convert to a flow, you know, like like uh you, I think, perhaps. I increasingly think of the power of the earth elements, the fire and water and earth and air, and uh water is often a very um uh a very feminine kind of substance allowing things to flow. And ironically, in some Namibian languages, uh it's rivers that are masculine in their names and mountains that are feminine. But I kind of see it in in an opposite way a lot of the time.

SPEAKER_01 27:28

Very interesting. Let's come to a uh a few kind of uh quickfire things to kind of wrap wrap the the conversation up a bit. We should say something about your dog who has been just so well behaved. Um uh let's have a name because um he or she has just done such a uh taken the starring role, really, I think.

SPEAKER_00 27:51

Yeah, he's he's called Whidby and he came with us from the US, uh, where I wanted to uh talk to a friend and and uh have one of the puppies of of his uh of his dog that uh was coming out to keep our other dog who had come with us from South Africa, very same color scheme, but this one has short stumpy legs, and the other one is a tall, bigger girl. Uh keep keep her company. But uh yeah, he he tends to sit up on my lap, particularly when I'm in a meditation session with my Zen teacher. I don't have a formal religion, but I'm very influenced by Zen and by a number of other faith traditions uh that I feel have power at this moment at this crossroads of history. And I don't know whether Whidby can sort of pick up a nicer energy when I'm sitting like this, but he often likes to come and just be part of be part of the qi.

SPEAKER_01 28:55

Lovely. I mean, it looks like he does actually. It's a gorgeous, gorgeous talk. Um could uh you're proud. Could you pick a a kind of a thing that you're proud of achieving, perhaps against the odds, you know, where something kind of was was pulled out of that hole, uh as it were. Um something, yeah. How would you? I mean, it can be framed these these words are just words, but there's something that you kind of feel that was that was a good thing.

SPEAKER_00 29:21

Yeah, yeah, yeah. I I'm I'm not a personally ambitious person, but I I do have a sense of satisfaction about uh something that we did in Southern Africa called biodiversity early warning systems, where we brought together, and it was kind of against odds of male egos and of funding constraints and so on, a bunch of people to help generate data for planning and policy and management and research at multiple scales, from uh subcontinental in Africa down to municipality and ranchers and farmers own patches of land. And biodiversity early warning systems consisted of a bunch of uh projects like bird atlasing and uh uh butterfly and moth atlasing, uh bio blitzes, where people go out and do a rapid assessment of what's in the area, yeah. Uh, and and other kind of population studies and things where people, sometimes without any formal education or even literacy, were involved in helping uh get involved in nature and generating data that was valuable for top-down planning and policy and so on, but also really at a visceral level connected people with nature in a way that they hadn't been for a long time or hadn't been before at all. That ended up being incredibly popular, and I feel really proud for being able to facilitate that and help design it and help, you know, bring it up to a larger scale. We we tried to develop that model in the US, no interest, because it wasn't focused just on commodification and the species that you could hunt or fish or log. Uh, I shouldn't say no interest. A lot of middle management people were very, very keen on it, but it never went anywhere. And in Rwanda and the Albertine Rift of Southern Africa, and now um in six countries of the Alps region, where they're considering it as a model. So very happy about that. And then finally, at some kind of personal level, I'm really quite proud to have been offered uh a global prize in the same time in the same year as Sir David Attenborough and Sir Um and Professor Dame Georgina Mace, the late great Georgina Mace, who developed the red data system, uh, the modern red data system for looking at um very endangered species. Uh, and that that was an absolute treat. And Georgina and I sat on the stage and said, but where's David? You know, the the the absolute menace. He's swanning around Borneo while we're sitting up here, and it would have been just really fun to have him there.

SPEAKER_01 32:24

That's a nice story. Lovely about Georgina as well. Yes, that that's great. Um you're you're a heroine or a hero. Um, sometimes we don't like to name individuals, but there are people who shape us in some sort of way uh to help us on the track, maybe at a younger point, or help us when we're feeling vulnerable. Um short story about somebody like that. Who would you pick?

SPEAKER_00 32:50

Way too many, but if I had to pick one, I'd pick a woman who is not yet famous. No one out in your uh uh audience probably has never heard of her yet, but she's uh one of my Nigerian mentees. Her name is Abidemi uh Raji, or Abhi, as we call her, and she is a postdoc now at Cornell, working on a fellowship. But she's a woman who has just so impressed me and inspired me by her ability to pay things forward, just as part of her lovely science nature and her community nature. She works on ecology, but also on bringing people into engagement with ecology. And she gives out microgrants to other young people so that they can get their qualifications exams paid for and things like that. And I think that heroism is a kind of community thing that needs to be embraced at the small and inspiring levels that it happens.

SPEAKER_01 34:00

Yeah, that's lovely. Well, I was born in Nigeria and grew up in the north of Nigeria, so I'd like to have a story about a Nigerian hero hero, heroine. That's great.

SPEAKER_00 34:11

Yeah, and my husband was also living as a small child in Lagos for three or four years.

SPEAKER_01 34:16

So um okay, great. Lovely. Um, a key book or cultural item um of yours to recommend, something that uh of yours, and then we'll take one of someone else. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 34:31

Well, that's where I was going to mention the climate restorers and the climate repair cafe, which John and I are working on now. And that is a news magazine short format version with a lot of new stuff that we're working on that we hope will help change the global conversation about taking agency and ownership over our future and the stabilization of our climate. And he's also now in in Ukraine working on something called uh climate in a time of conflict, which embraces the things that we are all seeing in the world. And so I'm helping him with that, but that's mainly his his creation.

SPEAKER_01 35:09

So is that available, the climate repair cafe stuff?

SPEAKER_00 35:12

Or is that we're we're just working on it now. We've got the first 10 episodes that we're hoping have just been uh supported, sponsored by a foundation, and that will be uh the first episodes will be coming out in Earth Week this year.

SPEAKER_01 35:27

Oh, excellent. Well, we'll put uh a note to that in the show notes for this as well. Um uh a book to recommend.

SPEAKER_00 35:34

Um you know, every one out of hundreds. Yeah, yeah, yeah. This is not a new book anymore, but every year in the spring and the autumn, because of the turn of the seasons, I go and again listen to it on audiobook. And it's Robin Walkimmera's Braiding Sweetgrass. So many important lessons for our humanity from her. And I feel that as someone is really interested in phonology, the change of the life cycles with land use change and climate, I so appreciate the way she marks the seasons and uses that to teach us about plants and the lessons of nature.

SPEAKER_01 36:16

Yeah, she's a gorgeous writer, isn't she? I mean, it's kind of beautiful content and beautiful writing, which is so nice to have together, isn't it? Um, one top action. Uh, what should people listening, what could they do right away? What would you what would you recommend?

SPEAKER_00 36:32

It it seems trite, but recognize that you're not alone, that everybody else around there, uh around you often shares the same anxieties and fears and and has compatible skills with yours. Go out and connect with organizations. And because I've just been sitting with the Climate Majority Project and and love what they're doing, I would say if you're in the UK, connect with the Climate Majority Project, but share your skills, your time. If you've got money, your money, um, and and become part of something bigger because community is the way to navigate these crossroads of humanity.

SPEAKER_01 37:12

Lovely. That's great. Thank you so much, Phoebe Barnard. That's great. I realize that the the moment I mentioned we started talking about your dog, Wibby, he headed off from the camera. He's obviously kind of didn't want to want to be on on show anymore. Oh, there he is.

SPEAKER_00 37:31

That's great.

SPEAKER_01 37:31

Phoebe, thank you. Thank you very much indeed. It's been lovely to hear from you. Um, and uh yes, let's let's take that into action, listen to others, work with others, do take small steps, see how that goes from there.

SPEAKER_00 37:47

Our species is fundamentally collaborative as well as competitive. We can choose to be one more than the other if we need to be.

SPEAKER_01 37:56

Very good. Thank you very much indeed. Well say it. Thank you, Phoebe.

SPEAKER_00 37:59

Thank you so much, Jules.