EP 24 | The Trust Recession: Why Your Brand Strategy Isn't Converting — Feat. Sarah Gemmell

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We are living through a trust recession. People aren't just skeptical — they're exhausted. And if you're trying to market your business without absolute brand clarity, you aren't just losing sales, you're deepening that hole of distrust. In this episode, brand strategist Shivani Pandey sits down with Sarah Gemmell — a psychology-led marketing expert who helps leaders build consistent business flow by understanding how humans actually buy. Together they break down why marketing feels like a struggle for so many female founders, what's really happening in the gap between what your brand says and what your audience hears, and what brand strategy actually needs to look like in a world where trust is the scarcest resource in the room.

In This Episode You'll Learn:

• What the trust recession is — and why it's the context every female founder needs to understand before touching her marketing strategy
• Why marketing feels like a struggle even when you're showing up consistently
• The psychology behind the disconnect between what your brand says and what your audience actually hears
• Why brand clarity is not a creative exercise — it's a trust-building tool
• What consistent business flow looks like, and what's usually blocking it
• The single biggest lever to move a buyer from skeptical to sold — without pressure tactics
• Why the transformation arc (who she becomes) is more powerful than any feature or benefit you can name

Guest Links:

• Connect with Sarah Gemmell — Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/sarahgemmell_?utm_source=ig_web_button_share_sheet&igsh=ZDNlZDc0MzIxNw==

Transcript

SPEAKER_02 0:02

Hey everyone. We are currently living through a trust recession, especially in the online space. People aren't just skeptical, they're exhausted. And if you're trying to market your business without absolute brand clarity, you aren't just losing sales, you're deepening that hole of distrust. Today I'm joined by Sarah Gemmel, a psychology-led marketing expert who helps leaders build consistent business flow by understanding how humans actually buy. We're discussing why our marketing feels like a struggle and how to fix the disconnect between what you say and what your audience hears. And I know that these conversations have such tactical shifts. I've made sure you won't lose the best parts. I've just launched my Think Brand Talk Brand newsletter to give you the strategy blueprint from episodes like these and much more bigger deep dives on brands for my female founders. And I turn them into clear actionable steps for your brand every week. Listen to this masterclass with Sarah right now and then grab the link from the newsletter from the show notes. Sarah, welcome to the show. Alright, Sarah. I really want to know your hot take on customers or clients or founders who come to you and say, hey, my brand is all sorted. Sarah, let's hit the market. What's my marketing strategy? Let's go for it. So what's your hot take on that?

SPEAKER_00 1:40

Okay, we're getting right into it, aren't we? Like the interesting thing about people who come to me with branding, a hot take is that like a lot of clients, founders think that the brand is like, this is what I need to sell. If I have my brand, I can sell, and it's like great, but now we need to take that brand and turn it and turn it into marketing, right? Or vice versa, you think you have the brand, we're ready to market, but it's like the the brand, quote unquote, is just colors and fonts, right? Like there's usually like we're so checklist oriented, we're like brand, check, you know, logo, check. And now it's like, Sarah, just tell me what to post, like tell me what content to create. And it's like, well, I don't know any of the branding. Like when we hire when we onboard a done for you client, say, like, what's the brand voice? What's look at send me the branding information? Like, what kind of um stuff do we say? What do we not say? Right?

SPEAKER_01 2:39

Exactly.

SPEAKER_00 2:39

And the amount of times I think I've only had one client onboarded that could send me all that stuff, no hesitation, in full detail. Like, there's very often these pieces missing. So you understand your brand, you understand how you talk, you know, what resonates with your people, who you're talking to, but you're not able to like translate it to the person that you're hiring for help.

SPEAKER_01 3:02

Yes.

SPEAKER_00 3:02

And it's like the brand is so much more than the colors and the fonts, but you also have to be able to articulate it to other people because I can't give you messaging strategy, content ideas, you know, market here, market there, because I don't understand the brand, right? It's like, yeah, we need to really dive into these things where most marketing people will be like, post on Instagram five times a day. Right? Like, I will not give someone advice if I don't understand their business model because the advice doesn't mean anything if I don't understand the business model, right?

SPEAKER_02 3:38

So I this is music to my ears from like I can't tell you how happy I feel when I hear this. Because I always ask a founder who's come to me and as a you know, like who who just wants this kind of work, right? Like straight to your kind of domain. Yeah, what's my marketing strategy? I will often ask them, what's your goal? So, you know, oh, in an ideal world, I wanna I want my product to be viral. I said, Okay, great. So you want virality, that's your goal. And you are you an influencer or do you have stuff to sell, like either service or product? Like what who are you? No, no, I have I have service to sell or I have product to sell. I said, okay, so how about the virality? Let's take it out for a minute and think about the fact that you've gone viral. There are these dozen and hundreds and millions of people coming to your page, and like what is there to for you to offer to them? Yeah, you you've lost that moment of virality to to a background where nothing makes sense to the audience now who's flowing in. Yes, they liked you for X reason that they're on your profile, but there's nothing that that can you can take them from there. So that's called strategy. That's the place where you are actually building something so you can you know use this moment to you to your advantage, and in your lifetime, if this moment doesn't even come in ever, you still are good, you still are functioning with so much that is available to you, and yeah, and and that that's a moment you they the you know the shiny object kind of goes away from the picture, and then people start talking about okay, so then what does it take? So I really want to hear from you. Like, I know that you are downstream with the you know, with the marketing strategy. How often is that the goal? How often are you dealing with someone wanting to go viral or someone wanting to uh use like social media should convert for them tomorrow? Like, you know, that's why I I hired you. Like, I wanted to convert tomorrow and you know, make me go viral, or my uh ROI is like hitting the roof. Like, how often do you get that?

SPEAKER_00 5:48

I actually don't get it a lot, I'll be honest, because talk about branding and messaging and all these things. I'm pretty clear in my messaging that I am not here to go viral to help you go viral, to grow your audience to a million people. Like, in order to be a small business owner on social media, we really don't need to do crazy amounts of volume. And to be really honest with you, most of us couldn't handle going viral anyway. If you had a hundred people this week, not even today, if you just had a hundred people this week inquire about your services, could your system actually handle a hundred people? No, yeah, right, it couldn't. Most small business owners just need the for the audience that they already have to have a better reason to pay them, right? It's like we don't want to be full-time content creators, we don't need to go viral, we don't need to have a huge audience. So changing the lens in which you look at social media, social media is a tool to move people from discovering you to paying you, and that is it, right? Like trending audios play a role, right? And you know, reels versus carousels, and you gotta play the game to a certain extent. Yes, but you don't need to even post five days a week. A lot of my clients are posting three, and we're not looking for these like crazy high volumes. Now, when they do go, I just had a client get 45,000 views on a trial reel. Yeah, that's great. That's right. That's so wonderful. It's like this cool win, and it was a reel that I had mapped out for her. She's a done with you client. So I send her the audio, I send her the idea, she creates it, and she comes back, she's like, Sarah, 45k. Yes, you know, it's a trial reel. So followers are coming in and all these things. That's so great, and that's an awesome win, but we don't need to do that every single time we post.

SPEAKER_02 7:37

Exactly. Right?

SPEAKER_00 7:38

And it's like now you pull in, you got 45,000 views. Those views don't mean shit if they're not going anywhere, right? So now I think she got oh, I'll have to ask her about this. I want to say it was between like 40 and 60 new followers.

SPEAKER_01 7:54

Okay.

SPEAKER_00 7:55

For most of us, that is great. And you know why 40 to 60 is great is because those are targeted followers. They made the conscientious decision to see your trial reel and come follow you from it. So that makes them most likely within the target market. And then I like to teach a system where we reach out to new followers on Instagram to saying, like, hey, thanks so much for the follow, an introduction, no pitch. Yes, just saying hi, introducing who you are, reminding them what you're good at, what your zone of genius is. You can invite them into like a free offer or something like that, but it starts the conversation, right? So now you don't need to go viral, you just need a couple of genuine heartbeats that fall within your target market, finding you every week. You start the conversation and you go from there.

SPEAKER_02 8:43

Yeah, and this is just the perfect way of doing business in today's time where things can be very overwhelming when it comes to so many platforms, so many ways of doing X. And everyone's wanting to optimize for the best possible combination of things, right? Like the matrix needs to work with the best possible combination. And somewhere we're forgetting why we are doing this, right? And and the fact that you said that yes, you do you have the capacity to handle 100 clients? Like, do you have the capacity to, and especially as a service provider, right? Because uh, as a service provider, you are probably so much in trenches with your client, and you are not like it's not like a SaaS or an AI tool that you hand over, and then you can just kind of like you know move on. Um, that you can't handle that kind of volume, and and and and this overwhelm is coming from I I feel this overwhelm is coming from this entire narrative where uh you know I made a million dollar business in two years with two kids under two. I can do it, you can do it. Like, I I am finding this kind of content so much um like advertised to me, and similarly, I'm sure it's getting advertised to so many people that they're missing out on variables that no one's speaking about of however they and A, like we were talking earlier, I think some weeks ago, about the trust recession. Because it's easy for me to also start advertising, saying that I made a million dollar business with you know, uh, two to I have a son, but one like you know, I can say whatever I want, but like who's really looking at the receipts here? Yeah, but that's I think that's what is getting people are getting fixated on about this whole six, uh, you know, six figure, seven figure, eight figure, nine figure that people are apparently making in a min uh you know, a year, and then you can do it to follow my course or follow what I follow my steps. So this separation from understanding your business need, your business requirement, your brand, who you stand for, who you are, what impact you create, like unless you are working on that constantly, and a lot of times I feel like people think brand strategy is step one, done, put it on a shelf and like move on. Like, let's go to the market. Even if you do brand strategy, it's like a book somewhere getting like dust on it right now, right? So it's not getting integrated, and and that's why this clarity on your brand foundation to then chasing it with you know, like integrating it with marketing, and then kind of going to the market with the understanding of who you are, what you impact, you create, is totally like it's missing from the market, and I I don't know how to fill this gap, like with this barrage of advertisement on your face, telling you women can do it all, and you know, the empowerment movement is so strong right now. I yeah, I fear it's being misunderstood. What do you think about it?

SPEAKER_00 11:55

About with the trust recession a couple weeks ago, people are now wanting to see that context. So when you're saying you made a million dollars in two months with all you know, all these kids, there's this major gap of context, right? So, like, did you have a spouse that made money while you weren't? Did you have child care? Uh, did you work 24-7? Did you uh have an audience when this two-month period started? Right. Like, where, like, what were these other variables that were included? Like, I even think about people who were like, oh, well, I sell without a landing page. Okay, that's great. And it sounds flashy, it sounds fun, but selling without a landing page now means that you're doing a lot of manual selling, it's a lot more time. I have um one girl who is not in my orbit anymore, but when I used to consume her content where it'd be like, I make $100,000 a month and I only sell the DMs, I don't have to do any sales calls. Yeah, that sounds flashy, it sounds cool, it sounds amazing. Like, oh, I hate sales calls, I don't want to get on them. But then you don't realize that I know for a fact that that girl is in her DMs 2457.

SPEAKER_01 13:05

Agree.

SPEAKER_00 13:05

24-7. She is on her phone. I've been around her in real life. I know for a fact that's how she is. I've seen it. So there's that context missing. Yes, you don't have to do a sales call, but that means you're trading it to be in your DMs 24-7. I would much rather be on a one-hour sales call than being on my phone all day, every day, just to answer all these people. Like, let's just get on a call and freaking talk about it.

SPEAKER_02 13:31

Exactly. Because you have a life to live. You have a life to live.

SPEAKER_00 13:35

And there, you know, there's all this context. Like, if you start selling something and you already had an audience of 10,000 people that knew you, liked you, and trust you, and you just added an offer, you didn't just overnight make all this money. Let's talk about how long it took you to build an audience.

SPEAKER_01 13:52

There you go.

SPEAKER_00 13:53

You know, like right. And you know, the people who grew um uh organically on well, specifically talking about Instagram, but it could even apply to TikTok. When you grew organically on that platform five years ago, 10 years ago, how you grew is completely obsolete. Yeah, completely obsolete. What you did in 2017 to get to 50,000 followers on Instagram is not doing shit for anyone anymore. Same thing on TikTok. When TikTok first came out, you could do any old thing you wanted to on TikTok, and you could build an audience doing it, right? And it's like the platforms are not the same. So now I need context. When you say that you built your following to a million people in two months, you're leaving out the fact that you did it when the platform looked very different, exactly. And that's a that's a key piece, and then you're also selling these outdated ass strategies like they don't work anymore, you know.

SPEAKER_02 14:55

I I agree with you, and I would say that uh not to say that I am like holier than thou, and you know, like sitting on some platform where I have not fallen for this, I have fallen for this too. When I just it just like you know, I I know that people go through vulnerable situations where they want to they think that their higher self like is this, and they need they must do whatever it takes to get there. We've all been there, we've all we've all gone through that path and then seen this kind of you know, uh flashy whatever X narrative that's there, and like, okay, yeah, I I want that, I can do that too. And then when you get in there, the basics that they are like peddling is like unbelievable that this is what you are telling me to do right now. Like, I I can't tell you that I wasted a huge sum of money on someone who was like, you know, it's you know, we can create anything, and uh you know, your business is gonna bloom in the next six months. And you know what the strategy was? I'm sorry, obviously, I'm not telling who it is, but it's like cold cold DM on LinkedIn. That's the strategy, right?

SPEAKER_00 16:08

Like, do that's how great groundbreaking, thank you.

SPEAKER_02 16:11

Groundbreaking, exactly. Like, and that's you know, I'm like, how wide, what a fool am I to have fallen for this? Like, now I don't even blame this person. Maybe this is a great salesman or salesperson who kind of sold this to me. Like, kudos to you. But this is this is how vulnerable our clients and our customers are today. That you would pay hard earned money to people who probably are not the right fit. So I really want to know from you, Sarah, that when you are say you've gone on to uh you know a sales pitch or a sales call, how do you know this is the fit for you, and how do you know that you are a fit for them? Because this disconnect of um expectations is something that is almost like you know, people are going back to their corporate jobs because like it's not working, no one wants this, no one wants this work because everyone wants the flashy eye, you know, situation. So what are the few things that you look at when you are wanting to work with someone or like what they should know when they have to work with you? What are the few things?

SPEAKER_00 17:30

I think the most important thing is like we have all made poor investment decisions in our business, and this is where the market has made a big shift because I I've been in the same position as you. A lot of people, their marketing and their sales are far better than the delivery of the program. They overpromise and under-deliver. Yeah, and it's it unfortunately is what it is. It's not ethical, it's not always fair. But the what it's important to remember there's kind of two pieces. When you make a poor investment, really learning from it and figuring out why did I buy into this in the first place? And then what was the thing that was really misaligned? So, like, I thought this is a great example. I'll give you a personal example. I thought Voxer sounded so cool. And I was like, perfect. I sign up for a Voxer program. Whoa, I fucking hate Voxer. Okay. Yes, we do. What is it? And it wasn't this is a great example of something that wasn't the person, so it was totally about me. But now I know that I invested in this thing. I learned that Voxer is not for me. So now I look and I use discernment and I say, if Voxer is the primary avenue of communication, I'm automatically out. I know that me as a consumer, this is the type of support I need. I like to verbally work through things. I don't want another group chat, I don't want a Slack channel, I don't want email support, I don't want Voxer. I had to learn that about myself, right? And I also know I'm not gonna watch the replay of a masterclass. So if I can't attend live, I'm not buying replay access.

SPEAKER_01 19:05

Exactly.

SPEAKER_00 19:06

So we have to learn these things about ourselves. And then there's this other piece where we have to remember, because we are also marketing and selling our own products and services, right? We have to remember that our audience is also going through the same thing where they have made poor investment decisions. They had this, you know, they were promised all these things in the marketing, they paid their hard earned money and they didn't get what they were promised.

SPEAKER_01 19:32

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 19:32

So now they are using more discernment when they are looking at your content before they ever book the sales call, before they ever get to the landing page, before they ever raise their hand to say they're interested. Yes, your audience is also using so much more discernment. They want to really know what is it that I'm gonna get when I pay you? What are you good at? Does this actually work for people? We have to remember the psychology of all this stuff, right? Yes. What has happened in the market? All the entrepreneurs who are in business, like early 2020s, they did really well just by showing up, right?

SPEAKER_03 20:06

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 20:07

And then 2023, we started, it was still pretty good, but we started to at the end of 2023 see this shift. And then 2024 took a big portion of entrepreneurs out. A large portion of entrepreneurs did not make it past 2024.

SPEAKER_01 20:22

I agree, so then I know that, right?

SPEAKER_00 20:24

Yeah, you saw that too, right? And then in 2025, it was a rebuild phase of like what the hell happened in 2024. We have to now figure out 2025, and now going into 2026, it's getting now. We're in this new market. We've got we already went through the growing pains, we already know the shift has happened. Now, how do we move forward with that information? So, looking at the psychology of buyer behavior because the buyer behavior has changed. It has so when you're making that buying decision, ask yourself what you're looking at. Like, I want to know, uh, so not just social proof through like texts or whatever. I want to see like case studies, I want to uh see video testimonials, I want to see like real time, you know, even if it's like something more one-on-one. Can I talk to a previous client of yours? Or typically I'm not buying from someone who I have no level of connection to. So I can kind of go to my circle of you know, referral partners and say, Hey, have you worked with this person before? What do you think? Were you happy with it? Blah, blah.

SPEAKER_01 21:28

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 21:28

But I also know the questions to ask and the deliverables to look for. Like I can do most of that research on my own. And then I take that and I say, okay, if I'm doing that when I'm buying, how can I add more social proof to my landing pages and my social media? Right? How can I add more thought leadership? How can I add uh more of my expertise and my credibility? How can I add more information about deliverables because I know that's what I'm doing? Now there's multiple buyer types.

SPEAKER_01 21:59

Yes.

SPEAKER_00 22:00

Can start there with how you would do it. Exactly.

SPEAKER_01 22:03

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 22:04

And then yeah, and you just have to like in today's world, the business owners who want to push and push and push will not survive. They will not survive. We're moving now into a space, into a market where people want the time to really consider their options. And the people who are telling them, no, don't do that. Don't do that. Buy right now. Buy right now. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 22:24

Like, you know, you're in a workshop, and at the end, like buy now, buy now. Like you ended, you attended something for an hour to actually be pushed into, you know, the free workshop is pushed you into now, like buy now because it's 50% off and you won't get that again. Yeah.

unknown 22:38

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 22:39

Now use the incentive, right? Incentivize people to buy now if it feels good to them, because you do have your impulsive buyer type where it feels good to them right now, they're going to act quickly, they're going to impulse, or they came into the free workshop knowing they want to work with you.

SPEAKER_01 22:54

Yeah, exactly.

SPEAKER_00 22:55

So, right. So incentivize it.

SPEAKER_02 22:57

Incentivize it.

SPEAKER_00 22:58

But this idea of like, you know, shaming people for wanting to consider it and like, oh, well, you know, these are just excuses and you're gonna lose momentum and you're gonna scare me. You know, like spare me. I actually just got off a sales call right before you and I got on. Just got off a sales call. And she's like, Sarah. She's like, in just complete transparency, she's like, I do not have the money to give you right now. She's like, but I would have it by the end of the month. And she's like, You can't, you know, if that's if that's not gonna work for you, if this offer is gonna end, I totally understand. I said, Girl, I am not here to give you some kind of fake urgency to push you into a buying decision. I do not want you choosing between me and your light bill. That is never a position I want to put my clients in. And that was that was what she was telling me. Oh, and I said, you know, like there's ways that we can work through this on a sales call, and you know, there's sales strategies and things like this, but there's also ethics and talk about branding. What is the brand? The brand is authentic, the brand is people above profit. And if you're telling me that it's between me and your light bill and we can talk at the end of the month, guess what? Then we can talk at the end of the month of the month.

SPEAKER_02 24:12

Okay, you know, like oh my gosh, so many, so many things, so many things. Yeah, I two things. One, I want to kind of debunk this idea that anyone is selling you anything unique or unheard of, right? Yeah, like the idea that you know what I have in my course is gonna change your life because I have something which others don't. Like, I'm gonna debunk this idea that absolutely no one is giving you something that didn't exist. Okay, we are working with people for a higher degree of accountability for their expertise because they have been there before you, so they know the 10 steps you can skip so that you know you are there faster. So, accountability and speed is what you are kind of looking at when you are working with everyone. Can do DIY today. There's Claude, there's Chat GPT, there's everything available to you. You don't need anyone if you think you can do it all, right? Like, I think that is part of the trust recession is further increasing because what are you going to tell me that Chat GPT cannot tell me? Isn't it? Yeah. So the the idea that we as a brand strategist and a marketing strategist go out there and say we've got something that no one else has, like, I think that is the biggest lie that anyone can peddle to you right now. So that's number one. I think at number two, the the fact that you just mentioned, I loved it, right? The shaming and the fake urgency that is being created. Like, okay, yes, I'm in incentivizing you for X. And yes, this is not gonna go on forever. This is what the time limit time period goes on for, and then you know, we do other things, that option is available to you, and that's it. I have been on I've been on calls again, the path of you know, buying poor investments. Where um some this one I'm proud of because I walked away. Someone said that, oh yeah, uh, like ten thousand dollars, like what you won't have food in your house if you you know invested in this money. I cannot tell you the amount of anger. Can you believe that? And this is a woman, okay? This is a woman uh selling me some kind of a course on uh you know, like GLP one or whatever. And yeah, she just told me, like, ten thousand dollars. Do you think that uh the food in your house would be uh, you know, uh a problem? Like, I literally quit that call. I would end it on her face. I was like, this is not the kind of conversation I want to have with anyone, including forget a stranger, like you know, anyone, like even my and you also don't know who you're talking to because what if my answer is yes? Yes, right, exactly. Yeah, it's it's it's uh so yeah, this so you know the the narrative of I have something that no one else has is a lie, and secondly, fake urgency is a manipulation that as human beings we learn with time and we learn with our own uh you know the way we have our own life journey, our experience, our wisness. So that's why when you meet people who don't push things on you, I think that in itself is a tell. That in itself is a tell on the confidence, on the on the on the degree of trust that you can place on this person. Amazing that you've said these things for I think clients, and I also think that clients who understand this are the ones even I want to work with, right? Like even I want to work with the ones who are who are honest about the fact that hey, I can't afford this right now, but maybe down the line. In the meanwhile, in the meanwhile, this is the part where I want you to like also throw a light on that we are not in the business of you can't pay me by. Like, what about relationship building? What about how do you think um you know, especially young entrepreneurs who are coming in who have a very black and white understanding of business? Like, yeah, I mean, I've been working since 2026, uh 2006, right? Like, this is the 20th year of my work. I know over the two decades I've worked how relationships are built without immediate ROI, right? Like without immediate understanding, and and then some relationships have gone into collaboration, have gone into you know that they vouch for me in other places. So I think this is a part of our business storytelling that's missing, which is about relationship development. So, yeah, uh, how do you see this piece going forward? Because the the space is becoming more and more competitive rather than being collaborative. So do you see that in your orbit as well? I do a little bit.

SPEAKER_00 29:17

I think I'm definitely more on the collaborative side of the internet, right? Yeah. Um, but I am still very much exposed to um industries or people or groups of people who are very innately competitive. So it's kind of interesting to see like such polar opposites in my world. But I think the biggest thing I say this all the time with relationships, networking, right? They both apply. We have to have a much bigger picture thinking when it comes to relationships. When you have this small-minded thinking of who's gonna buy for me, right? Yeah, it really it kind of creates the uh uh opportunity to miss opportunities, right?

SPEAKER_01 30:02

Oh, I love that.

SPEAKER_00 30:03

Right. It's like if you expand your thinking to outside of sales, right? Can we collaborate on something? Can we refer to each other? Can you invite me to a different event? Like there's so many other ways that relationships can flourish and bloom and turn into something that is beneficial that may not be a transaction or a sale right this second. It might be a referral to a sale six, 12 months from now. It might even be a great example. One of my really great friends in business, her and I met 2023 or 2022, who even knows, in San Diego. Okay. Yeah, and she was the brand photographer at this event. She does the free headshots, so I get my headshots. That's how we connected. We kind of like stayed in the same world for a little bit. Well, fast forward a couple of years, and I'm like, hey, like you and I really vibe on some different levels here. Like, do you just want to be like co-working buddies, mastermind buddies? Like, I really just like want a friend that we can have these like high-level conversations. That's how this relationship between her and I grew, and that is so beneficial to both of us. And now we also innately refer business back and forth to each other. Thank you. Right? Like, she has past me clients, I'm bringing her in on a client project. So it might just be having a friend, it might be a podcast interview like this one, it might be even just saying, Hey, there's this really great networking group that I go to. Like, do you want to come with me?

SPEAKER_01 31:36

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 31:37

Because that invitation to that room could land you a client.

SPEAKER_01 31:41

Clients, exactly.

SPEAKER_00 31:42

Right. So when you expand the way that you think about relationships, but also expand the way that you show up in this area of like everyone says show up and give value.

SPEAKER_03 31:54

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 31:54

That has been convoluted now where people are giving value, but they're still secretly trying to sell. Like giving value is yeah, like okay, perfect example is like if I came to you after this podcast and I'm like giving you value of like, hey, um, here's my marketing, uh, my marketing audit. Yeah, my marketing audit is a sales funnel.

unknown 32:15

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 32:16

Right. So like me offering you the marketing audit isn't me doing you a favor. It's me thinking I'm being sneaky trying to sell you. Yeah. You know, but if I say, um, if instead of like showing up and giving value, saying, Um, hey, how can I really support the podcast for you? Yeah. And you're like, oh, I would love a review. And I'm like, great. I go on the podcast, I leave a review. That is me showing up and giving value in a way that does absolutely nothing for me. And that is the key is showing up and giving value. That is not sneaky trying to sell something. It's like this person literally just needed this thing, and I was able to give it to them.

SPEAKER_02 32:53

Yeah, and just imagine what kind of uh, you know, uh effect that has on someone's psychology because it's like, you know, this person showed up just as a human being for me, just as a person. Like that part that someone showing up just as a person is is so hard to get. And I know that we are all in this transactional way of being because you know, who has the time for anything? But I also think that is again coming from your own idea about your brand that your brand is here to, as you said, profit over people, right? Like, that's what you and I have worked in those environments where it's very clear that see, I don't care about what brand is, I want leads, and that's it. And I'm like, sir, you haven't existed on the face of the internet and you want leads from the internet, like uh, you know, to have these conversations with people is like, what why should someone trust you on the internet? Like, you know, think about that side. You want you are so black and white and binary in your decision making of what you want. Yeah, you haven't even put yourself in the other side and saying, why should they be giving you any leads? Like, right? So being a person on the internet today, I think is most needed than anything else. You know? Yeah. Because it just feels like it feels like um I go back to it, but I it feels overwhelming now to be part of this space because it just feels like everyone else is out there to get you. So, in the meanwhile, if someone's listening and they are building something, I would say that start figuring out these people in your space who are just people, right? And how can they lean on you and how can you lean on them for things that may not seem an immediate transaction, but like it's just support. And how can you show up for them just that way rather than you know thinking that what is my next best way to you know squeeze something out of yeah, and one of my little tricks is I always have these like go-to ways that I can support people.

SPEAKER_00 35:06

So, like sharing something on my Instagram story for me is a big ask. Like, I have a whole strategy to my Instagram stories, like that's just a big ass. But if someone says, Hey, can you share this to your Instagram stories? I'll say, My Instagram stories are a little over, you know, they're oversaturated right now, but I would love to share it on this platform instead, or I can connect you to this person. Like, I know in my head how I can show up for people. I just have like a little list, I can share it in my Facebook group, I can uh do an email swap, we can do uh I can introduce you to someone who has a networking event, or you know, there's all these things that I can do, or even just like who are you looking to get connected to that's not a client. So if you said to me, I really want a podcast guest that teaches how to train your dog, I'm like, okay, you know, who do I know that trains dogs? And I can introduce people to other people, and that is in of itself very valuable, right?

SPEAKER_01 36:04

Like it is.

SPEAKER_00 36:05

If I went to an in-person event and I meet someone and I say, like, who are you really looking to get connected to? And they're like, Oh, I would really love to meet someone who designs websites. And I'm like, Oh, yeah, I just met a website designer. Like, have you met you know, so-and-so yet? That is a great way to support people, but like I already know that. I that's part of like my strategy when it comes to networking, is I know how I can show up and give value. So that helps take a lot of the pressure off, and it helps for me to show up really intentionally.

SPEAKER_01 36:39

Yeah, absolutely.

SPEAKER_00 36:40

Because sometimes people get really hung up on like, I don't have that many people in my audience, I don't know if I wouldn't know your ideal client. That's okay, that's not a requirement to network with me, you know. It's not a requirement. It's it's not about how many people you directly know for a direct paying client. Yeah, you know, there's so many different ways that people can support each other. I wish more people really thought about that, right? Like, I know what was the one I just um I just sent someone, I just sent someone an intro to something. And it's like it's just a resource. You literally just told me that you needed this help. I have this resource over here that I've been using. If you want it, you know, you can check it out. Yeah, same thing with like, oh, I'm looking to go to networking. Oh, great. I just went to this networking event over here, or I'm gonna go to this event next week. Do you want to go with me? Yeah, that is so helpful to people. We really downplay how much that means to people.

SPEAKER_02 37:40

I love this so much, Sarah. I actually want to ask you, like, this I think there's a there's a vibe of generosity that you that you are like beaming with. Where does it come from? Tell me.

SPEAKER_00 37:56

Where does it come from? I feel like it's just kind of who I am. Like, I think that's probably just chalked up to personality, to be honest with you. But I grew my business my when I was in fitness, I grew my fitness business to a global fitness company. We were making five figures consistently. I had a team of 12. Yeah, I mean, we were doing really great. It was a it was a great company, and a lot of that was attributed to networking. And it wasn't just because I was showing up to networking, I had a very clear strategy on how I showed up to networking. But no matter what my strategy is, no matter what I'm doing, I am always me. I am always me, fully, authentically, unapologetically. My husband says all the time, he's like, you are just literally you, no matter what room you walk into. And that allows for people to build trust with you quicker, but it's also having this like transparency with people, they like that. Like, so even saying, like, hey, listen, like I'm networking to make money, I'm not gonna pretend like I'm not, I'm just not here to sell you. Yeah, like I'm not gonna sell you, but like, but it I mean, if you need help, let me know. But like to I hate when people say, Well, I'm not here to make money. That automatically makes me not trust you. Because what do you mean you run a business and you don't need to make money?

SPEAKER_02 39:15

Money? Like, what do you mean?

SPEAKER_00 39:17

Right, right, and I automatically don't trust you because it's a lie. Like you just lied to me. Yeah, that's I'm not here to make money.

SPEAKER_01 39:26

That's so true.

SPEAKER_00 39:27

Yeah, but you are here to make money. I'm like, so it's just a hobby, like you don't need to pay bills, you don't have any overhead, like no, the I I love that, and I you know, so this is this is amazing because what I feel is your brand and your business is a reflection of who you are, right?

SPEAKER_02 39:46

And the more so sometimes when I'm even starting brand work with someone, I give them prompts and I do actually understand, want to know how much they kind of work on themselves, like you know, this this entire um is there something in their world which helps them ground them, which helps them look inwards? Because yeah, we cannot create an impactful, timeless brand that will outlive you, that will inspire the next generation of women, if you are going to be that kind of person who's like, I know it all, I don't need to like you know, do anything now. Tell me what's the brand strategy. You know, it's unfortunately you can we can still make a brand strategy for you, no problem. But if this is not your goal, if you don't want to be in this space where, as a person, the reflection that you are doing on yourself will not come through, it will not come through, and we will do a surface level strategic work for you. If you know you're okay, I literally have this conversation in my first starting point. I'm like, you know, I through my brand strategy process, I'm gonna be sharing prompts with you, and I want to hear the next session. How did you feel about it? It's like literally, if I'm doing my my the the week is about competitive advantage and differentiator and market research. Before we do that, I'm I've sent you prompts about how do you feel about competition? Tell me something that you you know felt insecure about. So, you know, it's like literally walking that path so that when you are really building, this is something that is going to be with you for the next five to ten years. Yes, you're gonna revise your brand, you're gonna revise, but for the next five to ten years, despite all the trends, despite everything else, will this tick? Will will an AI take you out? Will uh you know the next platform that comes up will take you out? That's why we are doing this work together.

SPEAKER_00 41:42

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 41:43

So I I know we've run out of time, but I think I can yap with you forever. We can learn just keep going. Let's just keep going, yeah. I am so thankful. I'm so thankful for you showing up with such generosity, showing up with such light, and such. Um I think I think there's an easiness with the way you operate. Like I can already sense it. There's an ease, there's an ease with which you operate, which I think that's why that's so important when you're working with someone, because you you don't feel like they are going to be a hurdle for you. You know what I mean? Yeah, yeah, yeah. So they are going to stand in my way to to do what I because there's they they already have this personality of you must, you know. So yeah. So I am so grateful. Thank you so much for showing up the way you did today. I I cannot tell you how happy it makes my heart.

SPEAKER_00 42:38

Awesome, thank you so much.

SPEAKER_03 42:40

Yes, yes,