CHEE | EP 005 | MAKERS MAKE IT MADE PODCAST

This week we sat down with Chee (@cheeeguy), founder of Plazaworks (@plaza.works), to talk about what it really takes to build a clothing brand from the ground up.

From teaching himself cut-and-sew and making jeans by hand, to growing Plaza Works into a respected Toronto label carried in retail stores, Chee breaks down the realities of entrepreneurship, why patience beats hype, and why every creative should think like a business owner first.

We also get into collaborations, building community, expanding internationally, and why creating experiences matters just as much as creating great products.

If you're a designer, founder, or anyone trying to build something that lasts, this one's for you.

Transcript

SPEAKER_00 0:08

Okay, what's going on? Welcome to another episode of Makers Make It Made. Um, this episode is gonna be fun. I mean, we we got a guy that's uh very talented. Um I know I know designers, most of them. Like they use the computer in order to make their garments. I know this guy, and he makes them by hand. So shout out to anyone that makes cut and sew. But like today, we got Chi, the owner and founder of Plaza Works in the House. How you doing, brother?

SPEAKER_03 0:37

I'm doing well. I'm doing well. I'm doing well, yeah. I'm doing well. Uh thanks for having me. And um, and yeah, no, I appreciate it. Like, um, I think uh make Plaza Works is like something that like, yeah, like as you mentioned, like you know, stuff is made, but I still do stuff on the computer as well, but like um, you know, like there is like uh a handmade element um to it right now, and I think right now that it just allows me to kind of get a little bit closer to the customer and just kind of like a little closer to the product to make sure that um especially at this stage, yeah, um things are like getting done right.

SPEAKER_00 1:16

I I think um, you know, now that design and fashion is much more accessible, I feel like cutting and sewing your own stuff is like a lost art. So anyone who actually does it, it's like I had to give them an extra kudos.

SPEAKER_03 1:29

Yeah, like it it's it's definitely a lost art, largely because it's just how like you know, when you were in in the industry, it's just not done. Um so like but the thing is like to to to like to work on like the computer to do things at like a higher level, you have to kind of have to know up how to do it by hand. Yeah. Um so like I think a lot of people are losing that aspect because there is um a sense of knowledge that you get from making stuff by hand. Kind of just like the more you touch it, you feel it, you can you see patterns and you work with patterns. Yeah, you kind of start visualizing how garments are or what they look like or what patterns look like without even seeing having the garments sewn. So like um, but like you can still make stuff without having that knowledge, and it's not like a prerequisite. Oh, definitely, definitely not. It definitely, like, especially like it definitely helps, like, especially when you're starting a company. Um it helps just to know have that knowledge.

SPEAKER_00 2:28

And we'll definitely get into that. Um, so how about you just tell the people who you are, you know, uh, you know, the jobs you do, and then we'll get into like a little bit of introduction on like how did you get into design and fashion?

SPEAKER_03 2:40

So, like who I am, what do you mean? Yeah, yeah. Chi.

SPEAKER_00 2:43

Who is Chi, bro? Uh Chi is He's a bike rider. He likes to ride bikes.

SPEAKER_03 2:48

I do like to ride bikes, but um like they go tell you like my like my whole life story or uh maybe enough.

SPEAKER_00 2:54

Like, give me like your born okay. I I was I was born in Nigeria.

SPEAKER_03 2:59

Okay, I didn't know that. Yeah, I was born in Nigeria. Okay. I moved to Canada when I was four. Um and yeah, like you know, I think if if if you if you if you if you know anything about Nigerian family, I think I grew up in a very kind of traditional, typical Nigerian household. Okay. Uh very studious uh education centric household. So like um, you know, lawyer, doctor, oof, you know, engineer, um, those were just kind of like the the thing, the thing that you do to do. Yeah, yeah. Or something of of those surgery, whatever, like whatever it is, whatever high paying job you can get over here in in like you know, North America, that was really what they were trying to. And like my dad's a pharmacist, so kind of big pharma. It just kind of that was kind of the thing. But like you know, I I had other interests. I was big into sports. I think I was like, I played basketball and football life, and like that was co what what the that was where my main interests were like growing up. And uh honestly, it wasn't too like about university, and is was when I really was like, okay, I think I want to do like I I always loved clothes. Yeah, I was always into like shoes. I think Jordans and An1's N1 sneakers, I was obsessed. That was a big time. Yeah, I was not, I was like I was obsessed with N1's.

SPEAKER_00 4:22

And An1's and Jordans at that time is like, are we speaking like this? Is like Alan Iverson.

SPEAKER_03 4:27

Yeah, like this is like 2000, too.

SPEAKER_00 4:30

Like N1 had like T Mac, T Mac had a shoe at that time, too.

SPEAKER_03 4:35

T Mac had a show, yeah, yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 4:37

The crazy lights are probably around that era. A little bit later.

SPEAKER_03 4:40

But like yeah, but they could create the Kobe.

SPEAKER_00 4:43

No, no, the Adidas Crazy Lights.

SPEAKER_03 4:45

Oh, those ones, yeah, those ones that came a little bit later. That's like 2000s. Yeah, exactly. But and one in like the early 2000s had like shit in the chocolate. I remember if you watch like the the dunk-off with uh Vince Carter. Yeah, yeah, yeah. He was wearing N1s.

SPEAKER_00 5:00

Is this the arm in the wheel one? Or no? He had Shockware.

SPEAKER_03 5:02

No, that whole one, the one he won. He was wearing N1s, he was wearing the Tai Chis.

SPEAKER_00 5:06

Okay. Like if you if you if you like I hope you're right, because I'm up I'm gonna put a clip on it.

SPEAKER_03 5:10

It's not even I'm a million percent. It's wearing the red and white tai cheese. You Google that, you can't forget it. Google it. The red and white, it's it's the white on the outside, red on the inside. It's kind of bro, it's like iconic. I remember seeing those for the first time, and it fucking blew my mind. Like, blew my mind. I was just like, what's it? Honestly, honestly, like it blew my mind. I was just like, what is that? Yeah, so that was kind of like I would say, like, my first like real introduction to like clothes and like real having so then it was just like you know, just forcing my mom to buy me shit, like um, like, you know, and then it was in university where like I I I don't know, I just started like there was somebody I went to school with, and it was we just kind of found an interest and then just tried. Yeah, and then it was that was kind of it, and then like you know, like it helped with like the university fashion show and like that. So that was just kind of how I got myself like involved. Um like and in my first degree was like I initially went to school to be a lawyer. Oh wow, yeah, I was in criminology, yeah. So like uh that was so while I was there, that's when I kind of was just like, okay, I think I want to go to school for fashion. So I finished it, finished that degree, but as soon as I was done, um I went to school fashion, fashion business, and then later fashion design.

SPEAKER_00 6:29

And then so like your fashion design background, like how many years is that?

SPEAKER_03 6:35

So it depends, like formally or informally, like right? Because like informally, like I've always been designing, right? Yeah, yeah, yeah. But like I don't think I wasn't I don't think I ever I didn't know how to technically design, right? Yeah, yeah. Um I remember the guy that uh was making my clothes like before. Um he was just like, honestly, like we can keep doing this, like we can keep making stuff. Because the thing is a lot of times I would get sample done and I would it'd be this price and I wouldn't understand why.

SPEAKER_00 7:04

Why? And then now you've done the thing.

SPEAKER_03 7:06

Yeah, like and he was just like honestly, like I'm saying, I'm being really nice to you. Yeah, I'm not I'm not like charging you crazy because of like because of your lack of knowledge, but just for your own sake, I think you should go to school and learn how to actually do this. Yeah, yeah. So then I was just like, okay.

SPEAKER_00 7:22

So okay, so you did school, and then you know, I want to say that there's probably like a precursor before Plaza Works came in. So like what what what was that?

SPEAKER_03 7:31

Yeah, so like while I was in while I was in school, like I started a brand called Abundance. Abundance.

SPEAKER_00 7:39

Yeah, honestly. That's a straight out of high school name for America. It was I liked it. Was it spelled the same way? No, it wasn't. Well, how was it spelled?

SPEAKER_03 7:47

It was like almost the exact same, but then instead of A, yeah, because it's like dance. Abundance. That's how it's spelled. Abundance. That's how it's spelled, but like I spelt it abundance with like a U. Oh. Okay, I got it. Yeah, yeah. I can see that a U. That was me being edgy.

SPEAKER_00 8:02

You know I was like, oh yeah, yeah, you love that.

SPEAKER_03 8:06

Um so yeah, no, like um essentially, like that, yeah, like that.

SPEAKER_00 8:09

That was and like what kind of brand was that?

SPEAKER_03 8:11

Streetwear. Okay. But like that was to be honest with you, like t-shirt design was like kind of like my main, like my first form of design of like learning how to design was t-shirt design. Like I was obsessed with it for like 10 years. Yeah, it's like I to be honest with you, I think that's that was like that's my bread and butter is t-shirt design. Like, not a lot of people know, but like t-shirts um and graphics are like that's where I uh that's where it is. That's where that's yeah, that's I feel like that's where I I got a design eye. Yeah, I started understanding like composition and what works well with others from just from a just from like a very raw design background aspect. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And then exactly. And then over ye over the years and just studying and studying, like you're starting to understand like you know, what makes a good t-shirt, what makes a good, you know, all these little things.

SPEAKER_00 8:59

So I think what's interesting about your brand now, Plaza Works. First of all, when when did uh where when was it founded?

SPEAKER_03 9:07

So in 23. So like 2023. August 2023. So I think we're up there, we're almost three years.

SPEAKER_00 9:13

We're almost three years. Congratulations, brother. It's hard to start a brand. And it's a great one too.

SPEAKER_03 9:18

It looks thank you, thank you.

SPEAKER_00 9:20

The one thing that's sick about your brand is that it doesn't seem like it's only three years old. Like it's definitely playing in the in the game of like I would say, like a seven-year-old brand.

SPEAKER_03 9:29

Yeah, uh, which is a good and bad thing. I was saying, Okay, why was that a bad thing? Okay, why is it a good thing? Why is it a bad thing? It's a good thing because like and like and then this is a lot of credit to the people that work with me. It's not just me. Like, obviously, like I do have an uh understanding of how to make clothes, but like our from our visuals, I'm like, I'm sure you know Matt's like that. We're gonna talk about TV. Yeah, exactly. Like, I'm just like from our visuals and how everything works, it's like that's not that's like like as far as how it like the vision, yeah. Um, obviously that comes from me, but how it's executed and how it looks, I don't know how to do any of that shit. Like, I don't know whole lighting, I don't know what gear to get. So that's kind of like the people that I work with that are like kind of responsible for that.

SPEAKER_00 10:10

So who who makes up Plaza Works? And like, can you explain why a team is so important?

SPEAKER_03 10:16

Like, I it's it like well so which one first?

SPEAKER_00 10:20

Uh let's go with like the team members. This is this is the plug. I have like shout them out, shout them out.

SPEAKER_03 10:24

Yeah, there's there's Matt's who's like you know our director. There's there's Kayla, she helps me with like all the development and like the like uh we worked like I worked at Canada Goose and we worked there together. So like I know that she knows how to do things at that level, at the highest level. Yeah. So like it's really good working with her. Um and then there's uh there's Jess. Um she's kind of like producer, like kind of just like overall liaison that just kind of just keeps everything fucking together together. Um then there's like there's and then there's people that we use kind of like sparingly. Like we have like like my friend Vika, she's like uh a DP, she's really good at making like high quality films, and then like we have our friend Reya, she does like our web design and stuff like that. So like and this obviously people I'm forgetting, but like um largely that's kind of like the core, the core, yeah, yeah. And um, and yeah, like on a month-to-month basis, like you know, there's other people who help out, but like it's important to have a team just because like um fucking you can't do this shit by yourself, it's just actually impossible. You'll go mad. Um and uh and like I I'm I'm all I like you know, I think creative direction and you know design clothing design are my um my expertise.

SPEAKER_00 11:44

Yeah. And then you just need someone like other people to fill the business.

SPEAKER_03 11:51

It's like isn't that the sad part?

SPEAKER_00 11:53

Like once you start running the business, you're like, yeah, like a very little percentage is about making the clothes, and the rest is about making good decisions.

SPEAKER_03 12:00

Good decisions, and I think those are the most important things, especially at the beginning, is making good decisions and making sure that you don't fuck yourself. Like um, like it's like there's like boring stuff, like you know, just like the finances, business taxes, those are like a whole new world of kind of like tasks and things that I like I had to learn how to do kind of on the fly. Not kind of on the fly, on the fly. And um and yeah, like it's and having a team and just having people who are uh who are willing to help take the like you know the the burden or the weight off of certain things at particular times is very, very helpful. Like um, and just again, like everybody that I've that works with me is like an industry like professional, everybody know what the fuck they're doing, like at the highest, highest level. So like everybody that I mentioned on that list, yeah, does isn't like some just so much and again, I'm not trying to like say anything, but they're not like trying to do this. This is this is what they do. This is what they do, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 12:58

This is what they do, and they do it well.

SPEAKER_03 13:00

So you'd say that like plaza's not where they're practice, this is where they're showing like Yeah, this is where they're showing exactly kind of like what they really can do, and like I'm very fortunate to have people around that like are as talented as they are that are willing to help me out. That's great. I don't know all those people matters.

SPEAKER_00 13:14

Shout out to you guys. Shout out to them. I know Chi loves you too. So um, so the brand, Plaza Works. Um, is it a denim company? Yeah, for now. Like I think. What's the future of the brand? I want to know more because I think right now people see it as a denim company. It is right now.

SPEAKER_03 13:35

It definitely is right now a denim company. But I think one thing that like um we do plan on expanding outside of denim.

SPEAKER_00 13:42

Okay.

SPEAKER_03 13:43

Uh, but I think right now Are you not a spoiler and uh sure top secret?

SPEAKER_00 13:46

What's gonna what's next? What's the next product that's gonna be number one?

SPEAKER_03 13:49

I don't know. I I to be honest, I see there's still a lot of development into certain things is to figure out exactly what's gonna be the first one that's not denim. Um but um yeah, no, for it it definitely is a denim centric brand. And again, we're gonna expand outside of denim. Sorry, I'm gonna put my phone on like do not necessarily understand.

SPEAKER_00 14:10

Speaking of denim, actually. I got a I got a pair from them right now. If you guys are watching the video, then you can see it. They're kind of fly.

SPEAKER_03 14:18

Okay, yeah, no.

SPEAKER_00 14:19

The whiskers on these are crazy, though.

SPEAKER_03 14:21

Yeah, no, shout out denim. Shout out denim. They're great, good people at denim.

SPEAKER_00 14:24

Good people at denim, denim's making denim. You know what? Actually, I do want to segue into um collaborations. I think you as a brand that's been around for like like three years, you've had a bunch of really healthy collaborations, like uh their standard equipment. That would that was really cool. Yeah, standard equipment. Shout out to them. Bank, um, denim.

SPEAKER_03 14:45

Denim.

SPEAKER_00 14:46

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 14:46

And we have another one come up in the summer. But like, yeah, I think the importance of like I think like we we like to ingratiate ourselves with the people that are around us. Yeah. And like we I like working with non like with adjacent brands that but not necessarily clothing brands. Memory that brand adjacent that we we kind of have the same values, yeah. Um, speak to the same people, kind of speak the same language. Um so it's fun to do products and stuff like that with with brands that aren't don't necessarily make clothing. Um it it's and I think it's kind of just like I think a lot of those collaborations are more about experience. Um we want to create good experiences, obviously, behind a product, but largely the the best thing that like I think why it's just so f easy to do some of these collaborations, like the companies when they reach out to us, whether it's denim, bank, the main kind of thing is like we want to create a moment, we want to create an experience for people, and that it just makes it so easy for us to do because it's just like that's something that we really we really enjoy doing and we want to continue to foster. So like like it's like um so yeah, so like we do like these big events, we do these parties, and then we want to could just again, it's I think it's like a way outside from like our core offerings, yeah. You know, have a little fun, do something that we probably wouldn't do standalone, yeah, and then kind of create our moment around it and just kind of bring these two brands together to to do something fun, cool, you know.

SPEAKER_00 16:19

So now it's summer. Are there any things planned? Are there any drops that you're looking forward to?

SPEAKER_03 16:25

Yeah, yeah. We're gonna be releasing stuff beginning of July. Okay. Early July. Okay. Um just a small little capsule collection that is kind of like summer, summer warm weather centric. Okay. Um, and uh yeah, we're gonna be kind of like teasing some of this stuff up pretty soon. But yeah, like and then and then also and then as we get towards the end of the summer, we have like another cool project collaboration with another cool Toronto. But we can't you can't tell us yet. No, no, I cannot, unfortunately. But like it's gonna be fun, it's gonna be good. Yeah, like because it it it again, uh it it kind of piggybacks off of the same vibe of all the other collaborations we've done. Um, very experiential, obviously cool products that you know, I think it goes with that being said. But I think experiential and just kind of involving, you know, the the people that are the peeps, the peeps. And I think those having events and having parties, those that's a kind of like a pillar of our brand. Yeah, just have just bringing people together like physically.

SPEAKER_00 17:31

100%. So you know, I think what's interesting about your brand is is you when we talk about the brand, one thing that comes up a lot is you know, being uh the founder is like you have to make a lot of decisions. Like you have to be that the the the butt of a lot of decisions because certain decisions when you are a small business can like end your whole yeah, no. Can you can you talk a little bit about that?

SPEAKER_03 17:55

Yeah, for sure. Cause like I think um like at the beginning, like that your decision making is everything. Like it's something that like it like scares the shit out of me. It's just making just to know that I'm making the right decisions, because as you just said, like a bad decision, bad run, bad could really at this stage could really fuck you over. So like um so yeah, like I think have it trying and trying to have as much um like control it's just trying to keep things in control.

SPEAKER_00 18:29

Yeah, are there any examples you have like running plaza where you were like, thank god we didn't do that? Like where you said no and you're like, or is there anything you did that you're like, I wish I didn't do that?

SPEAKER_03 18:40

Yeah, all the time. Is there one that sticks out for you? Like I don't think it I don't think it particularly sticks out, but like you you just spend money on things that you you learn, you're learning, right? Especially in this, like especially in this phase, like early, early stages of the of the company, you're learning. So like you'll spend money on XYZ, yeah, and then later on you're just like it whatever you spend money on didn't do what it didn't have the ROI that you needed. Yeah, didn't do what it needed to do, and then you're just like, oh god, why did we do that? Why did we spend XYZ on that? Didn't really do anything. Yeah, but you learn, right? So like I think those are the things you just like okay, all right, now that happened, I can't do that again. And it sucks sometimes because especially when you're working with other people, um you kind of have to be like the fun police. Yeah, um it's it's real, it's not like and the thing is it's it's so funny because I've always been on the opposite side. I always hated the fun police. Yeah, I always want to be fun, and I'm always like fuck the fun police guy. Like whoever the person is that was that's calling the shots and not allowing us to do this fun shit, fuck them. Yeah, but now I'm that guy, and it sucks because I'm just like, oh god, I know what you guys are.

SPEAKER_00 19:51

Yeah, I'd be in a brainstorm, like, oh my god, can we make the green shirt? And you're like, we're not making shirts right now, bro. We're not doing that. I'm sorry, we're not doing that.

SPEAKER_03 19:57

We can't do this, shoot right now. It doesn't make sense. And like it's it's uh it's uh but like I it's it's it's a part of the process. It's part of the process, and it's like if I don't make those decisions, I will we will get ourselves into into issues, and like yeah, so I think it's just I think um what's interesting about that is I think one thing that you're good at with Plaza Works and it's shown is like how much patience patience is a virtue.

SPEAKER_00 20:24

Like I think um not many people know it, but it's like you know, when you first started, you know, you were like, I'm gonna make these pants by hand because it makes sense for the brand. Like for the business, like for the business. Like you you like a lot of people call their clothing their clothing brands like just brands, like this is my brand, but you actually treat Plaza Works as like no, this is a business, brother.

SPEAKER_03 20:45

Yeah, no, I think I tell all you're just like. I tell everybody, I'm like, this isn't an art project. Like, you know, like this is not an art project. Um I've put a lot of time for the last thought, put a lot of money um into everything. And like, I don't know, like I remember this designer. I don't know if everybody remembers Gosha, Gosha Robacinski. I remember he said some quote like way back, and he was just like, um if I'm not making money selling clothes, we're gonna go do something else.

SPEAKER_00 21:24

Real.

SPEAKER_03 21:25

Real so like that's the whole point. Like, is like it's just like we're like, you know, we are trying it's a for-profit company, yeah, yeah. Real shit. So like uh we have to kind of operate like that, and like it's um again, like we're all creatives, we all are artists that have an artistic background. Um, but um it's it's you have to have that balance of being an artist and and running a business and just like what that balance is. And like again, it's not always fun. Um, it's difficult, yeah. It's difficult because there's a lot of things that make artistic sense that don't make business sense. Um so you have to kind of just um um kind of fish through and and and make make sense of it all and and timing is because there is time sometimes to to take that artistic step that that like you know it's like hey we may not be making money but we kind of have them have to pop out yeah we have to pop out right now so like I think it's like you have to know when you can do those things it and again it's it's difficult sometimes because it's like there's no um every brand is different every brand has their own thing there's no there's no manual on uh how to do on how to get it done and want to get it done so you kind of have to gauge it and and really have a sense of uh what your brand is what the reception of the things are and it'll inform like you know what you what you're doing.

SPEAKER_00 22:44

I think what's so interesting about especially now in day like the days now it's like I think you gotta be a little bit more creative with the way that you test the market. Like I I I feel like there's like no traditional playbook anymore.

SPEAKER_03 22:57

Like to do a campaign you don't just do it's not enough to just do a lookbook do a video do this do an event like you have to make those things align with your brand and make it your own it's not enough to just be like yeah I made a lookbook everyone should like buy my stuff yeah no and I think exactly and it it's about the whole process of yeah bringing along the the customer throughout the whole process of I think it's important to do that. That's something that I do and again is offering um like I think it's again I th I think I I keep going back to it. I think it's a lot largely experience based is offering that experience because to get to that end goal of them making that purchase is a lot. It's a lot I think I I think it's I I tell people that like you know that you know the people who are around me excuse me. For somebody to take money out of their pocket yeah you know from a job that they don't like especially like money that they don't really have right now and to give it take it out of their pocket and then hand it over to you it's a big big commitment and it's something I don't take lightly. So like we have to really I don't think I'm like yeah you have to give people shit before you get it back. So that's one of the things like we want to give free experiences free whatever the fuck it is so that like you don't feel like like this is a trade. Like you know we're giving you something you're getting something right yeah so like I I don't think um so yeah yeah that answers your question.

SPEAKER_00 24:25

It does I think one thing when you talk about experience uh that I think I appreciate as like the first time uh being uh introduced to your brand and I think a lot of people who started in your earlier days of plaza is like you were literally like come by my house and like I'll I'll do I'll hem the pants to your body and like I think a lot of people don't have tailors.

SPEAKER_03 24:47

Like you know I mean a lot of people have never had that experience and I think for you to welcome me in your house and like just be a sick guy and like show me your like your sewing machine I was like oh my god this guy really does it yeah you really do this yeah that was cool at the beginning kind of weird towards the end but like like it was cool at the beginning and I think it I I I definitely think I had I I that wasn't my intention it was it was just all it was just the only way it could happen the only way it could happen at the time but as more and more people came that was kind of what I was kind of under starting to see was like not only was it good that like you know people enjoyed coming by and getting to talk to me but like um and I thought I thought more people knew about denim than I than than you do than they do yeah right so like a lot of people would when they would come by they would tell me all sorts of issues but they've had with making like you know buying jeans in the past what they've thought about denim some of their questions that they've been too scared to ask they don't know where to get this information from so like I just realized that this experience that of you coming in and trying it on and being able because I don't give a fuck you can ask me anything yeah actually actually ask me anything I think I think you're uh the one thing I learned in that session was you were talking about like the van was it a vanity size vanity size and like you were just telling that like every single brand has their own actual makeup that's another that's a huge thing because people would come in and they'll be like I'm um I'm a size 32 yeah and I'd be like no the fuck you're not I know you did that to me I was like I'm a I'm a 32 32 like brother fucking 32 there's no chance and like the thing is it's again those are some of the some of the just giving people understanding on like not just our clothes but just clothes in general in general yeah how to shop and like why they have issues yeah from store to store why they can't get consistent sizing because there is also consistent sizing there's no such thing as the consistent sizing it's made up it's made it's it's every company creates sizing based off of who they want to wear who they expect to wear the cut the clothes who they want to wear the clothes so like so like it's not you know it's not universal right so it's design it's designed it's literally by design design it's by design so like you have to just kind of and then and just not a lot of people understand that because they see medium they think medium is medium is medium but it's not um so like just stuff like that just being able to just give insight on because again they're spending $310 right yeah on your jeans on my jeans yeah right so if you want to ask fucking questions you can ask as many questions as you want as so like and I'm willing to there be there to like why help you walk you through it yeah and why and why and kind of make you feel comfortable making this purchase and then when you leave and and again it it helped out because we were making everything made to order yeah so that I made sure like everybody's sizes was was perfect. So I was doing stuff that I don't normally even do now it's like doing little alterations and stuff like that. But like no like it was it was I think it would that stuff like that. Again offering experience offering um more than just trying to just trying to connect with the people like out like with the product but a little bit outside of the product 100% so you know uh from what you're saying you guys are kind of like in a moment where you're scaling as a as a very small business to like oh we're actually like small business yeah like you're we're growing for sure yeah we're growing you have to be uh be tempered in our growth I think that's one thing that you have to be smart with because like I think we've been fortunate to have some opportunities and some things be be you know thrown at us that I I don't know I I I wasn't expecting um I don't know what the how this works sometimes but I wasn't expecting to have two years down or two and a half years come in like some of the things that we've been presented to us. Yeah but yeah we are expanding but the thing is it's just just trying to expand gracefully and in a way that makes sense for the business as you mentioned earlier like we're talking about like decision making is everything so like you don't want to over overdo things or over overspend.

SPEAKER_00 29:01

Yeah um you know you d you don't want to fly too close to the sun to yeah right now so I will say it's like and and I'm proud of you for this congratulations that you guys actually have your your product in stores like real stores which is like something that a lot of brands it takes them five ten years to do.

SPEAKER_03 29:19

Yeah uh we're fortunate and we're fortunate like one of those yeah no it was unfortunate it's it's it's good like I'm and and I it I think it it's a testament of like the people that I work with like making it look good and then yeah everybody that's around and just supporting it and making stores want to buy like you know want to buy it carry it. And like it obviously a testament to like you know a team that makes good products and make good stuff. Shout out team um so like yeah like I think it's a whole team effort as to how those things happen.

SPEAKER_00 29:48

Yeah um and like we just want more of it right we want more of it and like those are the kind of things that we really want to be like focusing on like retail and starting shit yeah because it's a business it's not just a brand it's a business and then when you look at it you're gonna have to pay bills man stop thinking your brands are just brands they're businesses and like wake up and I wouldn't even say some people need actually okay yeah I'm gonna ask you two questions we only have time for two more questions.

SPEAKER_03 30:13

Oh shit okay we're almost done yeah we actually having fun yeah holy yeah okay we're almost there um so the so the first of the last two questions is you know you guys are three years in Plaza Works you know what do you see the next three years being are we talking global are we talking about stores are we talking about one or more stores like I think uh Paris is kind of like for me personally like I I love Paris and I think that's kind of what the next um sensible yeah move from what we've kind of experienced over the past few years a couple because you've been to Paris Fashion Week right yeah I've been to Paris quite a bit over the past uh year and a half yeah more like four times and um I just no globe trotting like it's been and like flight each time each time like I I'm kind of like gauging what's going on there like the last time I was there in January um I specifically went to kind of visit a showroom that like reached out I went to some stores and kind of like you know finally you know I've been thinking about it for finally kind of put myself out there be like hey this is us da da da da da to check us out and the reception was great and I think so like over the next few years it's I think kind of like a a European Euro okay expansion.

SPEAKER_00 31:35

That's kind of where ideally that's what I would like do you see them as like a a pop-up or do you see it like we're just gonna send our stuff there and like whatever happens out there happens.

SPEAKER_03 31:44

I can be up both a bit of both both I don't think there's any like real like limitation as to what we're I got I I think especially at this stage. This stage yeah everything's still everything is still up in the air yeah I think we can we don't have to mortgage too much on one specific thing. I think we can just kind of be smart on like hey we can do this and this we'll scale it down so we can do both things and just keep gradually brick by brick.

SPEAKER_00 32:10

Exactly brick by brick um so I feel like one thing that's really cool about your journey is that I think you've you you hit all the checkpoints like you learned the hard way yeah I'm still learning the hard way don't don't don't don't don't try to make people confused like it's still learning the hard way still learning the hard way but yeah sorry good continue.

SPEAKER_03 32:30

But you know what are the things that you think designers like this is more the the the advice portion um speaking to either younger self or younger designers out there what are the things that you think people should know uh coming into this game or lear or like learn right now if they're already in the game if you want to design if you want to have your own clothing company um you shouldn't think of yourself as a designer um you should think of yourself as an entrepreneur that works in apparel I think when you have when you view yourself like that um it changes your decision making uh when I was at Canada Goose um I used to work at Canada Goose yeah I remember I was asking somebody like uh I was telling somebody about I was about to start Plazaworks and then he's like gee do you know what the worst business is to start our and I was like what is like restaurants and um and uh clothing stores and clothing companies and I was like well why like you know what's you're like largely it's the mentality that the people that start these companies so like when you're in school and stuff like that trust me like it's kind of like romanticize you know it's an art right and when a lot of the things that made us want to do this in the first place is like you see your favorite brands and you see them you know go out doing all these things and um I think it's just kind of like having kind of just being able to do things at a at a at a pace that that makes sense. Because we all want to we all want to do these crazy crazy things. We all want to be an ego bro but like I I think when you exactly but if you think of yourself as an artist yeah uh you do artist things. And artist things are irresponsible. They look cool but they're not they like books wise they don't always make sense. Yeah. And I think that's where a lot of no I think I know that's where a lot of designers kind of um not themselves in the foot. Yeah should something in the foot because they see themselves as artists and they see their and their their work as art. Yeah and they kind of operate in what looks the best as as opposed to what does the best what does the best what's going to keep us going what's going to work um fiscally and I think uh when you think of yourself as an entrepreneur that works in clothes your mindset and your decision making completely changes but you're you're oh of course like you you know clothes you know manufacturing you know all those things so you're not gonna get fucked by manufacturing you understand those things yeah and you understand like the the the importance of design but then you're like okay at the end of the I'm still an entrepreneur right so I gotta make decisions I gotta make moves I gotta make smart I gotta think ahead I gotta really kind of analyze everything that's around me and I think when you do stuff like that when you kind of look at having a clothing company like that it just allow again it just allows you to make better decisions and I think those are some of the big mistakes I see a lot of people who are starting out and like um they just want to go from zero to a hundred and I and I understand it like I get it like I get it it's just like but you gotta just kind of be big business man yeah just be tempered and just think of it and and and think of it as as a as as a business not as I'd say I just said it earlier it's like this isn't an art project.

SPEAKER_00 35:49

Yeah this isn't um this isn't yeah this is not uh it's not for shits and gigs so like this is is it serious it's serious and especially as you keep going you're gonna be putting you're gonna be investing money time effort like you really like if you're gonna do it do it you know do it and kind of do it from the right uh perspective yeah and I think if you're trying to build something that's going to take care of you for the rest of your life it's not gonna be easy to be tough it's gonna be tough yeah like I I but you do have fun though right of course okay okay so make sure people at home he's not tortured he's still having fun I just feel like you don't want to be a starving artist though and no disrespect if you're a starving artist that's just not my thing.

SPEAKER_03 36:30

I don't think I don't think it's beneficial to be like you can't I I don't know I don't know what's beneficial to anybody but we live in Toronto man it's fucking expensive so like I don't know what it is to be a starving artist. I don't I don't think that's um I don't think that's something to aspire to like again if it's like it is what it is but you should always try to be kind of having um uh like you know a sense of have some sort of business acumen in in what you're doing because especially if clothing is it's it's all about margins numbers like those are it's that that's the backbone of it. So like uh it's not about the designs. It's not about the cool nobody gives a fuck about your cool clothes man. Especially the economy is pretty good people like it's like honestly the that's not your cool clothes is not what's gonna keep your brand going it's gonna be your good business good keeping your books in order and your good people yeah keeping having good people around you having being able to good make good decisions build community build community over and repeatedly right not just once you got to keep building over years and years and years and that's what's gonna uh allow your business to grow and sustain itself over a period of time.

SPEAKER_00 37:43

Okay so we have like two minutes. Okay. Um I wanted to because you know I what I thought was really good about about the event you did like a year ago or two years ago, you had this this campaign called Plaza Lives and I thought it was pretty ironic because it was like a lot of those people got to figure out where you lived and then you went into other people's homes and then kind of took photos of the genes in everyone's homes. Do you want to talk a little bit about that campaign?

SPEAKER_03 38:09

Yeah no I think it was it was it was cool like I think it was um a lot of like really revered um people within like kind of like the Toronto community and I thought it would be really cool to kind of especially like the whole premise of it was around um spaces, living spaces work spaces. So like again tied to these like revered people who have these really cool situations um that they've kind of like you know put together over the you know course of years. I thought it was really really cool to highlight it and kind of show people like you know who want to be like them aspire to be like them or are even in the same situation just kind of like what the ins and outs of what that's like yeah what their perspective is on like especially like if you live in Toronto or any major city around the world yeah real estate rent all that shit is it's just ballooning and it's affecting all of us in ways that like we I I again like you can't even predict it and and again um I thought it'd be it was really it was it'd be it was I think it'd be a good idea to kind of like peel the curtain back on certain people and just kind of them to give perspective insight kind of their story to give on on what it is to like to live in the city and like um and to like you know live and work in the city.

SPEAKER_00 39:28

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 39:29

Alright well we're about to wrap is there anything else you want to tell the people is there anything you want to plug this is the plug part I like plug what do you mean plug the plaza plug plug I don't plug what do you plug it to plug but like tell people about like what you want to promote like it's a promote part it's the um we're about to we're about to put out some clothes soon like in the middle we're about to put out some clothes soon we're gonna have some events in the summer okay um yeah like I think that's uh we'll put some clothes soon have some events in the summer um we're gonna be outside in the summer it's gonna be gonna be outside so um so yeah like that's about it like I don't like I like uh yeah yeah thank you for thank you for coming on the thank you for having me thank you for having me this has been great this has been great all right man that's makers well hold on wait hold on what's up what's your favorite wash addendum I think that's a very important question I don't even know man to be honest yeah okay that's it folks thank you for coming to me or watching until next time it's your boy later