Episode 2: FICO, Private Listings & Power Plays: Who Really Wins?

The debate gets louder in Episode 2.

Greg Sher is back with Coby Hakalir and Jennifer McGuinness, diving headfirst into the biggest power shifts happening across housing and mortgage right now. From private listing wars and shrinking transparency, to who really controls the borrower relationship, this episode pulls back the curtain on where the industry is heading.

The conversation heats up around FICO pricing, competition (or lack of it), and whether the industry is overreacting—or not reacting enough. Add in rising rates, global pressure from war, LO comp reform, and the ongoing fight between brokers, banks, and IMBs… and you’ve got a full-blown clash of perspectives.

No scripts. No filters. Just real opinions, sharp disagreements, and a deeper look at what’s actually driving this market.

If you care about where housing is going—and who’s going to win—this is one you don’t want to miss.

Transcript

SPEAKER_04 0:22

Can't believe we're back for a second episode. What's going on here? This is amazing. What a crazy week it's been.

SPEAKER_06 0:29

I think it's awesome.

SPEAKER_04 0:31

Having a good time. Having a great time.

SPEAKER_06 0:35

It's definitely a ride, for lack of a better way of saying it, right?

SPEAKER_04 0:38

I know. The question is, are we like uh top of the roller coaster on our way down? I like to think we're like still climbing. We're getting near the top. What do you think? We are slowly, slowly, slowly climbing up. Great feedback from the first show, and uh we're gonna do it all over again right now. You guys ready? Let's do it. Always got a lot of good topics to get into today. So let's start with uh talking about compass anywhere, uh real estate visibility. You know, the NARS settlement turned out to be much ado about nothing, but the rule change around uh how we can see listings has definitely changed. And by and large, you can't see listings anymore, um, especially because of what Compass has is done and and everybody else has kind of followed suit. You now have Compass Anywhere, Zillow Preview with Keller and EXP even in the mix now with Realtor and Homes.com. And uh, you know, NAR decided to move away from clear uh cooperation. And to me, I don't like it. I feel like there's no visibility for uh buyers, and where's the protection for them? They can no longer in these instances see days on the market, they can't see price cuts. I understand from you, Kobe, that you don't have a problem with it.

SPEAKER_02 2:01

Well, it it I I don't have a problem with it only because you know when we're when we're talking about this in terms of seller choice, you know, I think we're the the the brokerages are wanting to frame this as seller choice. What what it really is about is market share and controlling uh double-ended listings where they can, just because there's compressed margins on the real estate real estate side, just like there is on the mortgage side. So it is a business play, but at the end of the day, um, is the buyer getting less visibility because some homes are pre-listed or spending time in a pre-marketing phase where they're figuring out what the right price is and they're figuring out how to bring it to market. We already have and have had, and in some markets it's much more prevalent than others, where homes are not listed on the MLS and they're not brought to market right away. We have a pre-listing tradition. Um, if you take Austin, for example, about 35% of all of the listings that go on that wind up on Austin's MLS were pre-marketed. There is a tradition of that, and some of that has to do with how properties are assessed and how appraisers in certain counties find properties. And and so and so sellers having that opportunity to list the property they want is not something new. What's happening now is the MLSs are being challenged, the MLSs that never took a real hit during at a result of the um of the Sitzer Burnett case, the uh the bigger brokerages did, the smaller paid the bulk of that. The MLSs were shielded by NAR. And so the bigger brokerages now are going after the MLS saying, hey, we want to be able to work with our customers in a way that is beneficial to our brokerages and our customers. And if they can figure out a way to do that, which again, this is not new, it's already been done, but if they can figure out how to do that at scale and bring properties to market the way that the seller chooses to do it, if it's disclosed properly, then I don't think the buyer suffers. I don't think dates on the market is as much an indicator as we think it is. It's it's whether or not the property is priced correctly.

SPEAKER_04 3:58

And if there's a market, all right, all right, come on now. That was a mouthful, Jen?

SPEAKER_06 4:03

Yeah, I mean, in theory, Kobe's right, right? You know, there's always been a pre-list or a preview, you know, coming soon kind of advertisement on these real estate platforms, on MLS, etc. But you know, I don't actually think that the biggest question here is will the buyer or seller be impacted here? I think the focus of what we're seeing happen here should actually be on who's gonna capture the loans and what are those loans going to look like? And are we moving to a more captive model with certain large real estate groups, right? So unlike some of the other, you know, platforms like the Zillow um partnership with some of the other, you know, real estate groups, for example, the Compass Rocket is an exclusive relationship for those, you know, private listings. And the question is, you know, who works with Compass uh and the merged entities as their realtor base today in lending? Are those entities now going to be in a place where they're only going to be working with Rocket or not? And there are Rocket-based promos that are being offered for those listings and you know, advertising, et cetera. So I think this is a broader question than are buyers and sellers being impacted, right? Preview listings have always been a thing. The other thing I would say is the private component of this is really a play by the real estate firms to capture both the buyer and seller commission for these properties. Let's just call it what it is. It's not what everybody thinks it is what it is.

unknown 5:42

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 5:42

So, Kobe, you talk about how this has been done for years. Yeah, maybe as one-offs. I mean, certainly not at the level that it's happening now. I mean, we've seen the wars going back and forth between Zillow and Compass. You've saw EXP talking against this idea of private listings. So I just want to play uh this is from Mark Peoples. He's uh got a podcast, Real Life and Real Estate. Let's let's hear what he has to say.

SPEAKER_01 6:08

Seller benefit? Heck no. In fact, it's a total disservice to the seller because they have missed a huge portion of eyes in the market seeing that preview listing, seeing that uh coming soon listing. A massive number of consumers are not seeing it.

SPEAKER_04 6:29

I just don't know how you can make the argument, Kobe, that this is fair, that for a uh seller, this somehow gives them a leg up. And for the buyer, same thing. You know, I mean, for if you're a seller to be in a limited pool that only compass agents can see, um, you are cutting out an enormous amount of folks that can lay eyes on that listing. And so it puts the seller at a disadvantage. And before you comment, I mean, last week you and I were talking about uh open doors, and you know, you made a comment that I want to share right now, and I want to ask you why it doesn't uh why why is not that not relative here? And I'm gonna play it right now. That was not the way the way I wanted to do it. Uh, so you just hang on, young man. Um yeah, this is what you call his anger. You're about to say what you click with me, huh?

SPEAKER_06 7:20

Yeah, well, yes, he's playing a video of you. Isn't this fun?

SPEAKER_04 7:24

Yeah, yeah, you get a video of you, which I'm I'm looking for it, and I'm not exactly saying let's cut to the chase.

SPEAKER_06 7:31

What did he say?

SPEAKER_04 7:32

Well, this could be your lucky day, Kobe. Uh you know, essentially, essentially what you said as it relates to open doors is that uh it's hard enough, right? It's hard enough, it's challenging enough. The transparency is always in question when it comes to lending and real estate transaction. And here we are, I think, making it even you bringing that even more into question. So you can't have it both ways.

SPEAKER_06 7:55

Yeah, but Kobe, wasn't that your comment as it pertained to the manner in which uh loans are originated and pricing and whatnot? I didn't think that was relative related.

SPEAKER_04 8:04

He has a grown ass man, he can defend himself. Go ahead, go.

SPEAKER_06 8:08

I wasn't defending Kobe, I'm just adding my recollection, Greg.

SPEAKER_04 8:11

She was Kobe's the one on the hot seat. Let's go ahead and go.

SPEAKER_02 8:16

She was helping you out since you can't work your machine around.

SPEAKER_04 8:18

How does this how does this help with transparency? That's the question.

SPEAKER_02 8:21

You know, if if we're so we're we're talking about two separate things. If we're talking about customer transparency and disclosing the way that pricing works, um, that's going to lead us into the yellow comp conversation. And I'm anxious and eager to have that conversation. Um, if we're talking about, you know, that this guy who who you put on, I forgot his name, who was blowing hard into the microphone about how this hurts sellers. You know, first of all, historically, and if we use the Austin example, just because I just heard Wendy Forsyth from the Austin Board of Realtors talk about this, 20% of all listings in Austin start in the pre-market phase. Guess what? That's 20% of all listings, one out of every five. 90% of those eventually find their way onto the MLS and onto the open market. The pre-marketing does not prohibit the seller from seeing all those eyeballs, it just puts them in a position to where they can control how they're brought to market. There's a very big difference between missing out on eyeballs because you're you're you're stuck in this, you know, compass only environment or exp only environment. All they want is for the seller to have control over how they're coming to market. So I don't agree that they're missing out on eyeballs. I don't believe that it's a lack of transparency.

SPEAKER_04 9:25

I think how can you not believe they're missing out on eyeballs? I don't understand that. If the only place you can find the listing is on is on a private because of what the opposite stigma is.

SPEAKER_02 9:36

If the opposite stigma is if you come onto market too early and you're priced incorrectly, then you start to get the days on market stigma and that diminishes the value of your property.

SPEAKER_04 9:44

Well, but they're taking days on market off the table. You they're not even allowing that to be shown.

SPEAKER_02 9:48

And why and why is it days on market relevant other than as a negotiating tool?

SPEAKER_04 9:52

Well, it's very relevant. Yeah. Well, well, why shouldn't uh yeah, yeah. But guys, time out.

SPEAKER_06 9:56

Every one of these real estate platforms tells you the date that it became active on the platform, right? Like, like, you know, consumers are not stupid. If it became active on the platform in a preview, you know, on you know, March 25th, they're gonna know it's been there for a day. And by the way, quite honestly, that's at the top line of most of their intro intro images when it comes to underlying properties and days on markets buried much further into the scrolls. So, like, I don't know what we're fighting.

SPEAKER_04 10:24

All right, well, let's keep moving on right now. I I got attacked earlier this week by one of you, and I didn't I didn't know we were. Yeah, she can call timeout. Jen is the boss, let's be honest.

SPEAKER_06 10:34

This this this one's coming my way, Kobe.

SPEAKER_04 10:37

Yeah, and she showed she showed us all why she's boss when she jumped into a thread of mine this week and basically said that I had my head up my rear.

SPEAKER_06 10:47

I personally find your post on this to be completely comical.

SPEAKER_04 10:50

Do I ask you? You know what? I like I like to be I like to be funny. Here I am applauding the fact that Fair Isaac has lost a ton of market value. You know, their market cap uh in May of 2025 was 42 billion on May 9th. Today it's at 24 billion, and absolutely I am applauding this. And uh and and I am you know dancing on their grave in some kinds of ways. I that's not really a great depiction, but yeah, do I applaud when FICO gets hurt? I do, because FICO's hurt the mortgage industry a lot. I've focused on Will Lansing, some, and uh he is the CEO who made $65 million. Jen, I'm I'm I'm bringing you right in, I'm grooving this fastball right down the plate for you. Made $65 million last year, and uh that's egregious. That's egregious, and it's been on the backs of our consumers. So, Jen, I'll give you, I'm gonna give you the floor here.

SPEAKER_06 11:47

All right, so so I want to make sure that I understand the topics here and let's take them one by one, right? Are we talking about public company executive compensation or are we talking about the business? Or both?

SPEAKER_04 12:01

I think they go hand in hand because the business and your profits okay, they they that drives money into the CEO's pocket.

SPEAKER_06 12:09

I'm with you. Yep, we're on the same page. So I heard your view. How has FICO hurt the mortgage industry?

SPEAKER_04 12:16

Define that for me, in your view, uh by by 700 plus percent price increases in the last handful of years, which has been passed along to the consumer uh one way or another, whether the consumer pays for it or the money. So let's break that down because I did all the research because it's let me finish the answer. Let me finish the answer. Oh, I'm sorry, I apologize. It's either the the mortgage company with higher fees or the borrower taking a direct hit. Either one is not good. We agree on that.

SPEAKER_06 12:48

Um, I believe any pricing increase for anything in theory can be good or bad, right? So I'm not going down that semantics argument. So the last time that you were in a Starbucks.

SPEAKER_05 13:01

I want to throw a challenge flag.

SPEAKER_06 13:04

Kobe, you're not in this chat yet. You're next.

SPEAKER_04 13:06

You get to strip, you need to go get your zebra get your zebra jersey on and come back, and then you can throw a flag.

SPEAKER_06 13:13

Oh my god, can we stay on point, men? Really? Focus. All right, so Greg, the last time you were in a Starbucks, just for you at a conference, how much was your bill?

SPEAKER_04 13:24

Hang on, let me look at my Starbucks from this morning. Um $4.99.

SPEAKER_06 13:28

How much money did you pay for that?

SPEAKER_04 13:31

$4.99. $4.99.

SPEAKER_06 13:34

Okay, $4.99. Okay. So the FICO score has been in existence for 37 years. Okay. 1989. Okay. Over the course of that 37-year time period, the one the total pricing increase over entire 37 years, and I have a grid for this that I'm gonna share after this so that everybody can dissect my work, has been nine dollars and ninety cents. This morning, you paid $4.99 for a cup of coffee. Okay, everybody likes to use the big ticket headline of 900, 1000, 1500, whatever that number is. The dollar number over 37 years is $9.99.

SPEAKER_04 14:30

Terrible example. Terrible example because I can I can walk out of Starbucks and go down to Dunkin' Donuts. I can't do that with FICO. I have to use that to put loans in. So I don't I cobra. I get it.

SPEAKER_06 14:42

Dunkin' Donuts instead of $4.99 will be $479.

SPEAKER_04 14:45

Whatever it is, or maybe I go, maybe I go to the local shop. Maybe I go to the local shop where it's two bucks.

SPEAKER_02 14:52

So what Jen what Jen has just done is she's parroted FICO's own talking points on this issue, which is that the total cost of FICO, as no, I haven't.

SPEAKER_06 15:02

FICO has never said what I just said, and this has actually nothing to do with FICO's talking points. Stay on test. Nine dollars and ninety cents. Tell me how agree just said it.

SPEAKER_04 15:14

That's not Jen. That's not right. Fike, that is one of their talking points. That's one of their talking points because I've spoken to a very high up executor in the last couple of weeks, and they point out in the last 40 years.

SPEAKER_06 15:23

In the last 40 years, I don't want to hear self pitch. I want the two of you to tell me how nine dollars and ninety cents I'm trying to, I'm trying to answer.

SPEAKER_02 15:32

You got it.

SPEAKER_06 15:32

Blenders and consumers.

SPEAKER_02 15:34

Go ahead, Kobe. You know what? Her new mic, it's it's uh it's given her powers. She is whipping us with it.

SPEAKER_04 15:43

She's uh crushing us with the new mic, Jen. We should we should have never told her to get the new mic.

SPEAKER_06 15:47

She even has like a pivot colored light on the bottom.

SPEAKER_04 15:51

It's it's gonna be like also the per the first pivot reference. All right, I'm waiting, man. Nine dollars in Vegas. The overunder was three and a half. It was three and a half on the pivot.

SPEAKER_06 16:00

Um, Kobe, let us have to FICO FICO has said he wants to have this real conversation, huh? We're wasting a lot of time.

SPEAKER_02 16:08

Uh I'm trying. FICO, FICO has said, um, our cost as it relates to the total cost doing mortgage, they've called it, this is their quote, a rounding error. When you use that same argument to say, hey, they've only gone from 60 cents to $10 in 37 years, so what's the big deal? The big deal is that as Greg alluded to, we can't walk out of Starbucks and walk into Dunkin' Donuts because Dunkin' Donuts isn't open. That's the problem. The problem is to make the argument that our pricing increases don't matter because they're such a small component of the loan process. That only makes sense if you have competition that's providing an alternative. When you're when there's no alternative and all you're doing is consistently raising prices while providing the same exact so where's the competitor go be? Well, there is no competitor right now, and they continue to raise prices while providing the example. No, no, no.

SPEAKER_06 16:57

But now let's talk about vantage.

SPEAKER_02 16:59

How is that fair?

SPEAKER_04 17:00

Vantages and they're not open for they're not open for business that we can't deliver those things right now as an iron. No, I get it.

SPEAKER_06 17:06

No, no, no. So so so we don't have a dunk in donuts in your example. So maybe we could stay on task about how nine dollars and ninety cents is hurting the consumer. It's because that same consumer walks into Starbucks just like Greg and pays five dollars for coffee. But daily it's not just how many times during the year do you take out a loan? Wait, wait, I don't know. How often do you take out a mortgage?

SPEAKER_04 17:32

I don't know how this any of this is relevant to to the mortgage companies whose margins are compressed, rate compression, lower amounts of money, chasing uh lower amounts of money made, chasing chasing innovation.

SPEAKER_06 17:45

Greg, the mortgage companies in comparison.

SPEAKER_04 17:48

Jen, it's just what's what's the takeaway? It's not an issue. Is the mortgage industry making more out of this? Is the mortgage industry making more out of FICO raising prices than it should be? That's what I'm hearing.

SPEAKER_06 18:00

So is that the mortgage industry is making the biggest mountain out of the smallest molehill molehill in the world?

SPEAKER_02 18:07

Wow, okay. I just see that's good. That's a strong statement. I like that. I disagree, I disagree completely because there's also a component of this that we haven't addressed, which is the fact that the reason FICO is in this position in the first place is because of bad policies on behalf of the FHFA as it relates to the GSEs and the requirements, and that's where it gets to what other levers can we pull which bad policies, Kobe, of requiring the FICO score for delivery of the loan, which by the way, DU and LP don't even use the score, they just use the data.

SPEAKER_06 18:34

Okay, so but even with the vantage, if it ever becomes live, they're requiring FICO or Vantage at this point. So is that a bad policy as well?

SPEAKER_02 18:44

No, because at least there's a some competition in the mix.

SPEAKER_04 18:47

And that's I just want to I just want to be clear because I'm gonna share something that will be a good idea. Will Lansing credit?

SPEAKER_06 18:55

By the way, over the same period of time, hey Greg, I let you finish your sentence. It's time to let me finish mine. I think we have some kind of a delay here because when I when I talk, you don't stop talking. The credit bureaus that own the vantage score, okay, raise their prices seven separate times. While FICO has raised their prices three times. You know, I watched your interview yesterday, Greg, with Zimmer, and Zimmer said very specifically, and I didn't have time to get the video bite for you, that FICO increases their prices first and then the credit bureaus follow. That's not true either. Okay. So my question is, Kobe, if it's bad policy to not have competition, we now have an alleged competitor that will allegedly be live in short order, right? That's owned by the three other parties related to the manner in which FICO score is created today, although they are four separate entities today. You are upset about competition. The bad policy you just quoted was FHFA's bad policy of a monopoly. You are we are creating a bigger one. I don't disagree on that.

SPEAKER_02 20:12

I I don't I don't disagree that yeah, I don't disagree on that that that's a bad alternative, but at least it's a step in the right direction where it allows for structural changes to the city.

SPEAKER_06 20:21

I don't see how a bad alternative is the step in the right direction, but you can have your opinion. Right, at the end of the day, I didn't come this this discussion and my point has absolutely nothing to do with any of those other details. It is the headline that gets used so that Greg can post things like a what was it, a bad dog has its day or whatever the every dog has its day, absolutely.

SPEAKER_04 20:45

Yeah, yeah. I don't think Will Lansing should be making $65 million. I don't think FICO, I don't think FICO should be making 32% profit margins while the credit bureaus are making roughly.

SPEAKER_06 20:57

How much does Jamie Diamond make in a year? Greg, I'm talking about Will Lansing.

SPEAKER_04 21:02

I'm talking about Will Lansing, $65 million lasting.

SPEAKER_06 21:05

Yesterday in your podcast with Zimmer, you said Lansing makes more money than Tim Cook at Apple. Not true. Tim Cook's base salary is three million. They both, in their compensation, are very heavily weighted to stock. Yep, stock is worth pretty much nothing until you liquidate it. And as you stated, FICO's, you know, stock price has been going lower and lower. By the way, I was right, it flipped back up into the green and is back over a thousand dollars right before this call at the end.

SPEAKER_04 21:37

Well, Jen, let's take a let's take a look at liquidating since you brought it up. I happen to have this. Okay. So this is Will Lansing. This is Will Lansing liquidating in the last nine months.

SPEAKER_06 21:48

Yeah, very small components of shares. What's the problem?

SPEAKER_04 21:52

Liquidating. You know how much this equals, Jen? I actually uh did a little math on this, and let me show you what this liquidation in nine months looks like. You see. Number I've highlighted, yeah, 62.5 million. Okay, so yeah, he's liquidating all right. He's liquidating on the back, he's like he's liquidating on the backs of all these prices of all this price going up. My my point, my point is, I know the point you're making. The point is that there are a lot of stock awards, and in some instances you've got to hold them and you can't cash it for a period of time, but he's cashing. Oh, by the way, all right, everybody knows. So everybody knows how this is how Will Lansing views this is how Will Lansing views the mortgage industry and the opportunity to continue raising prices. This is from an earnings call. This is from an earnings call recently. This is Will Lansing. So let and I want you to tell us, Jen, at the end of this, if you agree with us.

SPEAKER_03 22:54

That I would say there's not a lot of change in our thought process. Our thought process is that over time we're going to close some of that gap. And um and you know, I think uh I you know, I think anyone who actually studies the numbers and gets into the details of it sees that FICO scores are uh you know a tiny, tiny piece of the overall process, whether you're talking mortgage or any other kind of credit evaluation process.

SPEAKER_04 23:20

Yeah, so he's got his eyes on our on our borrowers. So how do you respond to that? Do you agree with that?

SPEAKER_06 23:24

When when you why do you believe that that's a statement that has their eyes on your borrowers?

SPEAKER_04 23:29

Because he is saying it. Hey, yeah, he just said it. Here's the pod. Okay, some we have a tiny little sliver. We're just gonna grab some more because we can because it's such a little small part.

SPEAKER_02 23:39

Jen, I have a question for you. What what what do you think? What do you think FICO should be charging?

SPEAKER_06 23:43

How many questions are you gonna ask before you let me answer one?

SPEAKER_02 23:46

I just asked one. How much do you think Flick should be?

SPEAKER_06 23:50

So should I answer? That's right, I'll take mine off the table.

SPEAKER_02 23:52

Go ahead, Kobe. Forget my question. Go ahead, Toby. Just answer mine. What do you think FICO should be charging?

SPEAKER_06 23:58

Um, I think that FICO's pricing with regard to what they have to create, plus the inflationary cost for technology and a vast array of other things, which I'd be more than happy to lay out for you in excruciating detail, is fair.

SPEAKER_02 24:12

I agree it would be excruciating. Can you tell me what you think they should be charging?

SPEAKER_06 24:16

I just told you. What's can I answer this question already?

SPEAKER_02 24:20

What's the number?

SPEAKER_06 24:21

I think the ten dollar per score is fine.

SPEAKER_02 24:24

Okay. Will Will Lansing disagrees with you? Yeah.

SPEAKER_06 24:28

Well, I don't think that Will Lansing has disagreed with me that the ten dollars is fine, seeing as it's it's our current pricing.

unknown 24:34

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 24:34

Where do you have it's heading up? It's heading up.

SPEAKER_06 24:37

He's gonna make ten dollars a lot more expensive.

SPEAKER_04 24:39

No, but we have behavior. Well, we have behaviors which show that it's gonna continue going up, and that's yeah.

SPEAKER_06 24:44

And I told you, I'm gonna put up grids after this call.

SPEAKER_04 24:47

That's good. That's good.

SPEAKER_06 24:48

Then I'm gonna put it out there, and I'm gonna show you that that behavior is actually quite tempered.

SPEAKER_04 24:53

Okay, all right. Let's uh let's focus now on the war and rates. Let's listen to Logan uh Motoshami and Sarah Wheeler, love Housing Wire. This is my favorite podcast of every day. This is how I start my day, and this this is Logan's latest. This is the very latest. This is this morning on the impact of war on race.

SPEAKER_00 25:11

First time you could see the higher rate impact. Even though purchase application data was positive year over year, the week-to-week growth uh uh was hit. Also, the year over year growth was hit as well. So we went negative week to week, about five percent, the year over year growth is now down. That's the fastest forward-looking data line you can have until we get our weekly pending contracts data at the end of the week. The growth rate is what I'm keeping an eye on. Because up until last week, you know, housing data was positive. You know, the weekly pending sales are positive, everything. Like, if you did not know there was a war going on and oil and all that stuff, you're like, wow, this is a very boring year. So uh uh this is the first time I've saw uh softness in in the data.

SPEAKER_04 25:57

We just take it one week at a time and I would say that Logan is normally very bullish. Uh you can just see the hair, like he's so frazzled right now, he didn't even put the gel on for this. He didn't even put the yeah, the hair tells it all. Um, I mean, that's a that's a bearish tone for anyone that listens to Logan pretty consistently. What what do you all think of rates and the impact it's having uh on the environment right now as it relates to the war, Jen?

SPEAKER_06 26:27

I mean, I think what's more amazing is that you know, Pulti pontificated yesterday about how much rates have gone down since you know the GSC started spending money on buying bonds. But um, you know, look, I think um, you know, the longer that this war goes on, the worse the rate hits gonna be, not to mention the cost just for living in general. You know, today, um last I looked, you know, we were at uh, you know, 440 10 year, right? I mean, you know, we're creeping closer and closer to a seven-handle rate.

SPEAKER_04 26:58

Yeah, we are for sure. Um, but Kobe, he initially said, look, this could be short-lived. And we heard that from a lot of people. I mean, the the message was we were going to be in and out, but it clearly isn't the case. And and now the other point he made, which I didn't share, is that uh energy prices and the tenure are kind of moving in tandem right now. And so as people get are worried about it, the everything gets out of whack, and as we start to get reassured, which who knows what the pillar is really like under that reassuring we're getting, uh things t tend to improve. I think the the take my takeaway from Logan is that if this goes on much longer, it's gonna have a real material effect on housing, Kobe.

SPEAKER_02 27:39

Yeah, there there's there's there's two things really here at play. Um, you know, one, you know, and this is where you know that Pulty quote that Jen uh just alluded to is uh is is important because if we look at CPI over the past four years, prices have gone up around 24% in total. If you throw gas prices escalating on top of that, and people are starting to really feel the crunch of having to pay more for housing, more for groceries, more for gas. Yesterday on the way down to San Francisco uh to see the Yankees win against the Giants on opening day, by the way. Um, I saw the third I saw the first line of cars at a gas station that I've seen since this has started. Um, and that was because gas at that station was like six and a quarter a gallon versus over seven dollars other places. Now, California is already super expensive when it comes to it, but when you're starting to see people deliberately go seek out cheaper gas, that means they're thinking about it and they're thinking about what their budgets are are looking like. Um, and that's going to have a direct impact on that decision of whether to buy a home now or sit it out, maybe see if it's a good thing.

SPEAKER_06 28:39

Yeah, but to your point, right? The national average was in the twos for gas and now it's in the fours or just at four.

SPEAKER_02 28:46

Yeah, it's gone up everywhere, but it's it's most degrees always in California. Yeah. And so, and so I'm I'm not I'm I'm I'm mostly worried about how this relates to oil. And and if we look back to the 70s when and we look into the all of the periods of time where we've gone into a recession, the last five decades, there's been some oil-related issue around that. It has a direct impact on our everyday lives, it has a direct impact on the psyche of consumers and whether or not to buy a home. I think the I think whether rates are six and a half or seven percent or six and a quarter, I think is less relevant than what consumer confidence is looking like. And right now, it's looking to be at about an all-time low.

SPEAKER_04 29:20

Yeah. So I want to comment on uh on where rates are today and how it's affecting us as a mortgage company. So we do roughly eight to ten billion a year as a lender. And I went into our applications today and our file starts, and they're as good as they were the month before when rates were below six. So I can say as a lender, so far, so good. I did not expect that. I asked him to double and triple check that data.

SPEAKER_02 29:45

But some of that locked volume from a few weeks ago.

SPEAKER_04 29:48

No, no, it there's not a lot that's floated. Okay. Uh, so yes, a lot of it is locked, but the real question, Kobe, is the new applications, the new file starts, does it have a rate commiserate with today? And the answer is yes. We're not still hanging on. There's some of that, 15% or so, but six and a half is still a whole lot better than seven percent. Jen, the question I want to ask you, having been involved in in so many different incredible aspects of this business, both on the acquisition side and the MBS side, and looking at all of the acquisitions that have been made here and uh people teaming up. You've got Annaly, Compass Rocket, uh, Freedom, Seneca, and so many other deals, which by most likely hinged on this idea that rates were gonna be at a certain place, right? When these deals went down, rates were looking at 6% or lower. Now all of a sudden the acquirers are looking at a pro forma that's 50 basis points worse. Um, is that an exercise you think that the participants on the buy side are gonna look at, are already looking at right now, or is it not that big of a deal?

SPEAKER_06 30:54

So if it's okay, I want to add one other thought to your prior topic, and then I will answer this one completely. Yeah. You know, with regard to taking in new apps and whatnot, I'm not surprised by the data you just shared, but I do think that lenders in general need to think about a couple of things, especially on that like locked pipeline, as you know, the treasury continues to kind of creep up slowly and the war continues. And that is make sure that your loans are delivered on time and your locks don't expire. The aggregators, uh, the agencies, et cetera, anybody who's giving you those locks today are not going to be as nice about lock extensions. Lock extensions are going to be more expensive if you get them. Okay, so very important for that loan pipeline right now, and every loan you're taking a nap for right now as well, that's locked. Make sure those loans close on time. Make sure those locks don't expire. If you need to adjust those now, know it and look at your pipeline. Very important from a revenue perspective.

SPEAKER_04 31:57

Thank you for that.

SPEAKER_06 31:58

Yeah, definitely. And I would also, um, with your aggregators and your partners, check any exceptions in advance in writing. You don't want to give anybody a uh out-of-the-money, in-the-money, you know, kick reason on something that you know you're still supposed to be making money on, but they don't necessarily want to be taking less on. And that's a real thing in this business. So please pay attention to that. Um, with regard to your next question, all these different consolidations and whatnot, I think you know the largest ones are really all hybrid models, Greg, right? So when you think about Rocket, Mr. Cooper, Redfin, you know, now add in the compass, you know, exclusive, this, that, and the other thing, there are up and downsides to the necessity of redoing that pro forma. So for example, you know, as rates were going closer and closer to that six, or maybe we even would have been in the high fives on a 30-year at some point, if this wouldn't have happened from a disruptive perspective, they may have been betting on certain refi volume for some of those higher rate loans, you know, a couple of years ago that, you know, would have put in additional revenue. And I think every lender was. However, they also would have been offsetting that in the hybrid model when they own a significant amount of servicing with the runoff on their servicing book, right? Now the duration on their servicing book for those same loans that they believed would be refinanceable will actually extend in duration. So they'll, in some ways, depending upon how the asset's performance is there, get a positive benefit from the extension from the servicing. And that's one of the very general reasons why people are moving to these hybrid models, why you're seeing, you know, the Penny Max acquire a servicer, while you're seeing all this movement, because in a lot of ways they're natural hedges to each other if you don't screw it up. But what I would say is an MSR is also one of the most volatile assets in the market environment. One day you could be a winner and one day you could be a really big loser. And it doesn't take a lot of time for that to happen. Yeah. So the management of that servicing book is extremely important.

SPEAKER_04 34:03

Yeah. So it's not just about uh sometimes it comes down to business decisions too. A great example is Lone Depot making the announcement they're going to get into wholesale. When they made that decision, the bond looked a lot different than it looks right now. But the cat is already out of the bag. Uh, Kobe, you touched on the market not really trusting Lone Depot as much as they once did based on how they exited the last time. So for them, you have to wonder if they're looking at this going, oh my goodness, we thought we were looking at, you know, potentially a rate of five and three quarters. And uh what kind of an obstacle that is, if any, to them. Let's let's shift into LOComp. Um, this is an interesting topic that's coming up again, and um, it's coming up because of the executive orders and the opportunity that the MBA now has to go fight their fight on several fronts that don't require congressional approval. This is one area where there could be a rule change. And the question I ask when it comes to LOComp um is is it that important to lenders, uh, the LO comp thing? And and I wonder, I really do wonder, because uh everyone has has a way to identify a lead as uh a certain bucket, right? When it comes in as a company lead or when it comes in as an internet lead, there's already adjustments being made that account for LO comp. Um, and you just look at this line here, Jen, and then I'm gonna punt it to you. Um, this is from the MBA. While the bureaus believe that this prohibition was necessary to prevent loan originators from pricing loans at the outset and then selectively negotiating lower pricing, this has the unintended consequences of discouraging creditors from reducing prices for borrowers who shop multiple lenders and use that information to negotiate the best rate terms. You say what?

SPEAKER_06 35:58

I mean, look, if you if you take it verbatim, the way that they've you know portrayed it there, right, it makes general sense, right? You want to be in a position where all parties to a transaction, if there is movement, can kick in a little bit to make the deal happen, right? How many times have we been in this industry where you know you've got a $2,000 gap to be able to get a deal done? And you go to each of the parties and say, hey, we got to come up with this $2,000, right? Borrower, you need to kick in, realtor kick in, lender kick in, etc. And that's actually what a relationship and a partnership with a consumer should be. We should be willing to have those conversations. I think this speaks to when some of these regulations and thought processes were put into place, they didn't necessarily have experts from each component of the industry involved in each one of these. And I think there's a lot that could be done a lot better with the right experts involved to refine these.

SPEAKER_02 36:58

Yeah, I mean, there's all kinds of problems with the with LOComp right now. Um, you know, there's there's three channels. If you if you think about how banks operate, how IMBs are able to operate, how brokers um, you know, there's there's uh a system of arbitrage where people are in one channel are operating with a different set of values than the other, um, and everybody's claiming they have the better system, but until everybody's on the same system, we really don't know what's best for the borrower until everybody's playing on an even playing field, which they're not right now. Um, and so the brokers want to claim that that their system is better because they're more efficient, but they are able to pull levers that the IMPs can't. Um, we know that there's lenders out there discouraging folks from applying for government loans for the uh not government loans, for the down payment assistant and bond loans, because those are are harder to price out and make profitable because of how they have to pay and the income they take in on them. So there are structural issues regarding LOComp that not only makes it more confusing, and if you want to play that clip from last week, now's a good time that make it more confusing for the borrower, but that really prevent us from seeing which system is best beneficial for the consumer and ultimately it hurts the consumer because it doesn't allow us to pull those levers. And and what's happening is everyone, whether it's the broker side or the or the IMB side or even the bank side is finding their own workarounds around this. And they're gamifying the system in a sense with internal leads and external leads, and and this goes through that channel. Um, and that creates confusion for the borrowers that uh prevents even more transparency around it. So, do we need reform around this? Absolutely. I know we've we had a discussion, the three of us, about whether it would take a simple rule change or whether it would have to be an act of Congress. Um, there seems to be some opinion that it could be a rule change. Um, and I think this should be a this should be a priority for us going forward.

SPEAKER_04 38:45

Well, I think the best point you made is that brokers have it differently. And you didn't peel that onion back more than one layer, if that. I mean, they have the ability. If you're if you're working for a broker, Kobe, and you get 50% of the proceeds from the loan, and I'm looking at a rate sheet and I'm a broker, I can select the rate that has 150 basis points, of which I get 50%, or the if I can sell the higher rate, I can get the one that gets me 250, and then I make 125 basis points. That's what you're talking about, right?

SPEAKER_02 39:16

And so I'll and also the ability to switch between borrower paid compensation and lender paid compensation when you're competing against someone else. I mean, that's that's an advantage that that that is that is, you know, that's the that's the arbitrage here, because that's the advantage that they have in their market that the IMBs and the banks do not have in theirs.

SPEAKER_04 39:33

Yet yet you say that private listings are totally cool above board. There's no issue with that. I found the I found the sound bite, but I'm not gonna play it now.

SPEAKER_06 39:41

But can I just interject one thing here before we move on?

SPEAKER_04 39:44

Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_06 39:45

So one of the things Kobe just said is he wants to see there be a level playing field across all channels, but I think you have to remember that not all business structures are the same, right? So, for example, if you were to look at the component calculation of LO compensation in an independent mortgage bank versus a much lower LO compensation in banking institutions when they are the direct lender, it's because they have different business models and different calibrations of success as to what they're looking to achieve. And I think we touched upon this very briefly, Kobe. I don't remember if it was on a podcast or, you know, on another discussion. But like, for example, you know, deposits for a bank are, you know, more important to them than, you know, let's call it a point on rate, right? So they'll, you know, for a certain level of deposits from the same borrower, give up a point or more on rate. So I think you want to, you know, take that into consideration. I don't think this is gonna end up in a place where, you know, all different channels, all different business types that lend for mortgages are going to end up flat. And I I just wanted to point that out, that it's something to keep in mind.

SPEAKER_02 40:52

Yeah, I I I would say allow the same level of flexibility to be able to make business decisions that benefit the consumer. That that's where I want to see it end up. It doesn't have to be exactly flat, it's never going to be, but re-trigger or recalibrate the rules to do what they actually intended, which was to create a more fair and transparent system for the borrower. That's my point.

SPEAKER_04 41:11

Well, that's a perfect segue into this slide, which Kobe, uh the the hair on your back was standing up, I understand. Sorry for exposing you like that. What about this? What about this post stood out to you as far as brokers dominating? This comes from Matt Ishbia.

SPEAKER_02 41:28

Yeah, you know, I I I don't know in what world uh 27.88% is dominant. Um, and and the post that I put on about this said, you know, hey, you know, I'm I'm a big Yankees fan, as you know. We just won our first game. Um, if we only win one out of every three games this year, um, I'm disinclined to proclaim that the Yankees are dominating baseball. Um I I think I think words matter. I think the brokers are on a great trajectory. Um, you know, there's there's no reason that you know they can't continue on that trajectory. Uh I I hate the language about brokers are dominating. Let's say breaker brokers are on a on a hot streak, and they are. They they they're they've got a good business model going. They're they're getting it together as far as their marketing, as far as their tech stack, um, they're definitely making inroads. And and the uh the space that the banks left in the industry when they started to kind of move away from trying to dominate um has created both uh IMB and broker uh to take over the market. And uh we know the uh the IMBs have their own set of numbers when it comes to this, and I think they're truly the ones that are dominant. Uh we still have to break down those numbers, but um, but yeah, I mean, you know, I I I I I just uh I I don't like language that's that's that's incorrect and and words do matter.

SPEAKER_04 42:39

What do you think, Jen? Is this a is this uh just uh the distant cousin of brokers are better?

SPEAKER_06 42:45

You know, look, I think, you know, Matt obviously, just from a sales perspective, being the largest wholesale lender in the nation, brokers are going to be better no matter what the statistics are, right? Those are, you know, that's his channel, that's what he caters to, et cetera. So I think, you know, that's something to take into consideration here. But I do think you've seen people start to jump from being, you know, lenders, indirect lenders, into forming brokerage shops as well. And I think that was really more of a play to get diversified product offerings, guys, you know, more than you know, brokers are better. So, you know, I think look, you need to put the detail behind that. I have not yet been able to proof out almost 28%. Um, but I agree with you, Kobe, that 28% is not necessarily, you know, something to you know celebrate over for the broadest piece of the industry, but um 20, you know, 8% is still significant.

SPEAKER_04 43:42

Yeah, yeah. I think the the bigger numbers that the channel's grown 100% in X amount of years.

SPEAKER_06 43:47

That's where maybe Yeah, and like I said, I think you got to look at why, right? I think you know, um, in the broker businesses, because they have the diversifications to be able to work with a vast array of lenders, you know, so much. Of the lending world was stuck in, you can fight with me in a minute, Greg. Was stuck in an agency only place or an agency FHAVA place, right? And if they wanted to be able to serve a customer, for example, with a DSR, bridge, fix and flip, ground up construction, first lien non-QM, first and second lean HELOC, etc., you know, the traction that they needed to get there, they needed more than one lender to be able to do those things. And at times, lenders that only do certain of those products over the years. So I think that's part of it. Clearly, lenders in general have started to diversify as well. But I do think you've seen a lot of that in the historic call at last five years.

SPEAKER_04 44:40

Yeah, it's not so black and white though. It's not so black and white, though, is it? Because we know the history. We know that if you send loans to UWM, there's certain other big wholesale lenders you're not allowed to send loans to. So let's not pretend that that doesn't matter.

SPEAKER_06 44:54

Oh no, and and my comment was definitely not about UWM, right? My comment was with regard to the fact that you indicated that the broker channel's grown 100%, right? Um, the the brokers that are the most diversified are not um generally pigeonholed and signed up only to work with one guy or girl, right?

SPEAKER_04 45:14

I think I think you're this this is the a better example of your Starbucks Duncan thing. Like you can go. I think you just still can't go work with Starbucks.

SPEAKER_06 45:22

You can explain 990 to me.

SPEAKER_04 45:24

Yeah, you got Starbucks and you got Dunkin' Donuts in this instance, you have a choice, right? And it just depends on where someone is in their career. I've met some of the most wonderful people from the book broker space, and I root them on. I am actually a fan of it. Uh Ishbia is a genius. He he exposed uh uh void at a great time when people didn't want to carry underwriters and and processors and closers, and he's he he built this infrastructure where you just plug into him. Uh, and for some people that's amazing.

SPEAKER_06 45:54

And and then the things he's done to add to that as far as wooing people, um, as far as yeah, I mean, you've really got to give, look, at the end of the day, no matter what your opinions are here, you got to give Matt a crap ton of credit. You know, when he took that business over from his dad, you know, they were doing, I think, 10, 12 billion, and now they do 168 billion, right?

SPEAKER_04 46:14

And it hasn't been many years Is he ever gonna be an all of us guy?

SPEAKER_06 46:19

And everyone who everyone who knows him, everyone who knows him.

SPEAKER_04 46:23

I've not talked to him, but I'd love to. Everyone who who says who talks to him says no way, he's just a bull in a china shop, like he wakes up every day trying to figure out how to kill people. But I also know people that work for him that love him, that's that hang on to his every word. So in there is a great compassionate person inside. And will he ever talk about the industry holistically? Cook Kobe.

SPEAKER_06 46:46

I think though that by virtue of you know the manner in which he dissects the industry, he does think about the industry. With regard to being a tiger, let's not lie to ourselves, right? The large majority of the large lenders in this universe, they're tigers too, right? Whether they will take part in all of us or not is a question. And you know, just because someone's got a strong personality doesn't mean that they're not a collaborator. So I think that's important as well.

SPEAKER_05 47:13

Well, there's a void though.

SPEAKER_02 47:14

The industry I don't, I don't, I don't necessarily, I don't dis I don't disagree, Jen. I think UWM cares about two things and two things only. They care about broker market share and they care about what their own market share is within the broker channel. Those are the two stats that they routinely put out.

SPEAKER_06 47:26

Oh, there's a third one making sure that Rocket's not number one every year. That's the thing.

SPEAKER_02 47:32

That that's the that yeah, that is the subtext always, right? But right, um, you know, that what what they've done in the broker channel, because again, their value proposition is not lower rates, their value proposition really is SLAs and service, and they've built that with a 2,000-person IT team. I mean, that that is just a massive number, and that and that is a big, big reason. And they've put so much pressure on the rest of the broker channel to compete on the tech, and that's a major reason why the brokers are doing as well as they are and able to get speed to close and good pricing. So, um, kudos to what they've done, whether whether but I think we also have to touch upon one other thing in the kudos village, right?

SPEAKER_06 48:10

And you know, lenders may get mad at me for this. I would love to go to the kudos village with the code.

SPEAKER_04 48:14

She's gonna give she's about to give me kudos, Kobe Watson. I would love to go to the kudos village. Let's go.

SPEAKER_06 48:21

Let's go to the kudos village.

SPEAKER_04 48:22

Thank you in advance. Thank you in advance for giving me kudos.

SPEAKER_06 48:25

Oh my god, can I hit delete like for five seconds? Anyway, so needless to say, the one thing I would say is they're rolling out some really smart things as it pertains to bringing their servicing in-house, right? And where a lot of the lenders in this market environment right now are going, oh my god, am I gonna lose my borrower to whoever's bought their servicers, right? You know, the fact that they're bringing that servicing in-house, built just went live yesterday, et cetera, is significant with the amount of loans that they originate. And the key there is gonna be if they can put into that business now platform consolidated as it continues to be built, the manner in which to redirect those borrowers right back to the broker, right? If they're gonna dominate in uh wholesale, and there's gonna be a lot of change in the wholesale environment that we see today. They're already dominating, it will get bigger.

SPEAKER_02 49:19

Yeah, UWM currently 42% of the broker channel. That's their number.

SPEAKER_06 49:23

It's gonna get bigger if they can do what I do.

SPEAKER_04 49:25

Uh you ready to hit the last topic? Let's do it.

SPEAKER_06 49:28

Absolutely.

SPEAKER_04 49:29

All right, let's talk about this. Oh wow, look at this graphic. This is really pretty. Co Kobe, you and your did you and your team put this together, Tobe uh Kobe? I keep wanting to call you Toby. By the way, I keep wanting to change your name to Toby. I don't know why. Yeah, you look like a Toby.

SPEAKER_02 49:42

Uh, do I? Okay, yeah, I get Cody, Corey, Toby, Colby, you name it. Um, you know, I didn't put this. Uh this is uh this is Jen and her team put this one together. I I I had the uh starter, I had the starter graphic that then morphed into this. Um, so you know, just to you know, if I'll I'll set it up since I'm talking, but you know, we had we had the condo change come down. Um to me, um, there's a lot more bad in it than there is good. Uh, and I feel like just another false start on the part of uh those who make policy for our for housing and for the rules that govern our lending. Um yes, we revised the insurance, and that's a positive. And yes, we also took away the PERS review for Florida condos, also a positive. But if you look at this list, um, you know, even some of the wins, like the per unit deductible capraiser, that that comes with an equal and opposite negative reaction of the HO6 per unit deductible. So, you know, the 50% investor concentration eliminated, fine, that's great. Um, but limited review. Um, you know, I know Greg, you had some numbers around what your company is doing around limited review and how this is going to negative. Yeah, that's what I was gonna say.

SPEAKER_06 50:45

My biggest, my opinion of the biggest loss here is the limited review.

SPEAKER_02 50:50

On average, the market for condos is 25 to 45 percent in that band, limited review for condo loans, you know, and and we're and I I think also the reserve requirement going for 10 to 15 percent in January when a lot of condos already have their budgets locked for that.

SPEAKER_06 51:05

It's too fast, it's too fast, definitely too fast. Maybe we'll get them to do it, you know, faster. But I mean, August eliminating the limited review is ridiculous. It's way too fast, right? And um, it's also more manpower heavy to do full review on everything.

SPEAKER_02 51:21

You know, and and and the broader context here, yeah. That's the big that's the big thing. Yeah, yeah. In in the broader context here, that when we're talking about uh an industry or a housing industry or housing market that is constrained by a lack of supply, and we're trying to make more supply available. In fact, one of the executive orders from Trump last week did did do exactly that when it came to permitting and zoning and some initiatives there. And now we're we're moving a whole category of condominiums to make it more difficult to lend on them, to make a lot of them non-warrantable and require portfolio lending. That does not increase supply and that does not increase accessibility. So, my question is what the hell are we doing here?

SPEAKER_06 51:59

Once again, I think this is a perfect example of revising things without doing a full up and downstream analysis on exactly where they're going to impact things. And it's my humble opinion. I have a lot of friends that also work at Fannie and Freddie, that not all of this came from Fanny and Freddie. I think some of these things were revised with a little less expertise than that.

SPEAKER_04 52:24

Well, so what are you saying, Jen? Where'd they come from? This is no surrender, no holding back hot taste.

SPEAKER_06 52:29

I mean, you know, baptism by X, right?

SPEAKER_04 52:33

So you're gonna make us follow the crumbs. Come on, Jen.

SPEAKER_06 52:37

Well, no, I mean I think we all know that as it pertains to most of this stuff, up to and including Kobe's most recent videos, that X is the place to go, you know, surf this stuff, right?

SPEAKER_04 52:46

Yeah. So as it relates to NFM's volume, I did talk to David Stein, who runs our condo desk, and he did say, by and large, Kobe, he would agree, disagree with you that broadly a lot of these changes are good. Um, the limited review is going to hurt. Roughly 40% of our uh condos are limited review. And I think Jen makes the most salient point here that you're gonna require a lot more man hours and man, it's more manual at this time to go full, and it's gonna require looking over a lot more paperwork. And his point to me was that limited reviews perform as good or better than agency loans. Now, I don't have any data behind that. Uh, Jen, I don't know if you can speak to that at all.

SPEAKER_06 53:27

What do you mean by limited reviews perform better than agency loans?

SPEAKER_04 53:32

That con that condos that get that go through with limited reviews perform very well. So there's a lot of different things.

SPEAKER_06 53:37

Well, I mean, you know, they're different types of projects, right? They're different types of condo projects. But Greg, I think you raise a good point. So, Kobe, one of the things I think we need to keep in mind here, understand, you know, your you know, thoughts globally on these, but depending upon the types of condos and the geography of where those condos are and the you know structures for your you know, hit list geographies for your condos for individual lenders. Um, like Greg said, some lenders are gonna see a lot of this to be more beneficial and not really see the downside, but that's gonna be based on the geography in which your condo production actually lives in. You know, for certain geographies, this whole list is bad, right? Um, even the wins, right? For other geographies, the whole list is good, and then there's the balance in between. So I I think that Greg, you raise a good point with your internal team, but it's all about what's your geo, what's your saturation, et cetera. With regard to what you just said about limited reviews, yeah. Um, again, limited reviews are allowed on certain types of projects.

SPEAKER_05 54:41

Very narrow. Yeah.

SPEAKER_06 54:42

Exactly. So it's not a broad brush set of condo projects. So there's not going to be a huge performance deviation between the two of them.

SPEAKER_04 54:52

Yeah. So I mean, I guess the question though is if it's if it's for such a small population of these opportunities, yet it represents 40 to 50 percent of some lenders' uh bucket of these. Was that an opportunity that lenders were uh tackling that no longer exists? And how will that impact business? Right. That's a reasonable question. But more importantly, as we wrap here, the thing that bothers me is it took you, Jen, 54 minutes and 22 seconds to tell me I had a good idea, a good point. That's we got to do something about it.

SPEAKER_06 55:24

Well, again, I'm still waiting for you to explain to me $9.90.

SPEAKER_04 55:29

Well, I'm uh what I'm really what's really tying up my brain here, which has limited capacity, as most people know to begin with, is last week we talked a lot about sandwiches. Today we pivoted to coffee. Uh next week, are we gonna talk about pizza and toppings? What's going on here?

SPEAKER_06 55:43

I don't know. You know, it depends on if I need to explain simple math again or not, right?

SPEAKER_02 55:48

Yeah, we also had uh we also had the every dog having its day, and then and then Greg made a reference to the cat coming out of the bag. So we had now we got animals. Yeah, we've got it all.

SPEAKER_06 55:58

We have to talk about and have a headline on something next week, the elephant in the room. What do you think, guys?

SPEAKER_04 56:03

We can do that. We can do that. You know, you know who loves elephants is uh Stan Middleman. I interviewed him from Freedom, and and he's got in his home office, he's got this massive mural of an elephant, and uh it's kind of like his be uh behind the corners, you know, his the book that he did. Um, it's not behind the corners, it's seeing around corners. Yeah, around corners. Yeah, that there's always an elephant in the room you can't see. So I think Stan's already covered that, and I'd pay homage to that great brain.

SPEAKER_06 56:28

All right, I guess you're gonna just have to pick a bigger animal than a dog and a cat.

SPEAKER_04 56:32

I thought you were gonna say a bigger animal than an elephant. I'm like, gosh, good gracious, that's a big assignment, Jen. You are tough. Full on full on Jurassic Park. Um, what I'm afraid of, Kobe, is Jen is gonna she's gonna re-watch the exchange we had around FICO and how hot it got, and next week there'll be two of us. That's what I'm afraid of.

SPEAKER_06 56:49

Yeah, going anywhere, guys. Keep dreaming. Somebody's gotta put reality into this discussion.

SPEAKER_02 56:54

I think I think she's coming back next week. She's gonna go out and buy an even bigger microphone this week. That's my fear.

SPEAKER_04 56:59

No, it's like it's either gonna be her seat will be empty or one of our seats will be empty because we'll see this huge SUV running over one of us. I have a feeling I would be the main target after.

SPEAKER_06 57:08

No, wouldn't even wouldn't even want to do that level of damage to my tires, guys. Not worth it. Nobody's getting run over. Sorry.

SPEAKER_04 57:15

That is a Jen McGuinness answer. Uh all right. Well, this has been great. We've gone almost an hour. Uh, this is we have covered a lot of ground here. I'm having a lot of fun doing this. I'm not gonna lie. So two down, another one to go next Thursday at 1 p.m. Eastern. You guys gonna rejoin or what? What do you have any closing comments? I'm all in, man. Let's keep it going.

SPEAKER_06 57:34

Yeah, I'm all in. We're gonna keep it going, but we're gonna start to get you to stop interrupting me, guys, and start to actually answer my questions. That's my challenge for episode three.

SPEAKER_04 57:43

There's actually truth, a delay of some kind in here. I don't know if there's any way to close that gap, but sometimes excuses, excuses, Mr.

SPEAKER_06 57:50

Chair. Sometimes I would sometimes answer to my questions. All right, well, that's my challenge for episode three.

SPEAKER_02 58:01

Can the three of us figure it out? Stay tuned.

SPEAKER_04 58:04

Well, at least we all got the memo on wearing black. So that's good. I did although if I had I zipped this up, I could look more in tune with you guys. That's a good one.

SPEAKER_06 58:12

Oh no, I think you look pretty good.

SPEAKER_04 58:13

That's it. Well, only because Nyung, our incredible producer, uh told me that there was a filter. So if I look like I'm 21, I really don't look like I'm 21. I look like I'm 55.

SPEAKER_06 58:25

I don't think any of us look this good in real life. Let's not lie.

SPEAKER_04 58:28

Yeah, well, we're all wearing black at least. So yeah, um, that's agreed.

SPEAKER_06 58:31

I guess we got the uniform, the no surrender uniform.

SPEAKER_04 58:34

Next week, let's come bright and ready, okay?

SPEAKER_06 58:37

All right. I think we came bright this week. We just need people to answer questions.

SPEAKER_04 58:41

All right, Jen. Jen always has to have the last word. So I'll tell you what, get in the last word, and then Nyoung can go right to the closing. Go ahead, Jen.

SPEAKER_06 58:48

No, you have to say goodbye.

SPEAKER_01 58:54

Don't surrender on the show. We go toe to toe. What fail? What fails? Who wins the oh?