Episode 8: Mergers, Bitcoin Mortgage, CFPB & Job Data

Last week's conversation generated some of our strongest reactions yet! This week, we're doubling down.

🔥 APM / Synergy One: What does the merger mean for the industry?
🔥 "Marry the House, Date the Rate": Smart marketing or a flop?
🔥 CFPB turning lenders into ICE?
🔥 Better originates first Bitcoin mortgage
🔥 What’s the story behind the jobs data?

If you're looking for consensus, you're watching the wrong show.

LIVE Thursday at 1PM EST with Erin Dee, MBA and Coby Hakalir.

Transcript

SPEAKER_05 0:45

Unbelievable. How can we not start the show talking about that combat? Epic combat last night.

SPEAKER_06 0:50

There's no way, there's no way to not. There's no way to not. One of the most iconic moments in New York sports history. That may be, that may turn out to be the most famous shot ever associated with the New York Knicks, if they can close out the series, especially Saturday night, game five in San Antonio. I got off the plane at around 5.30 local time, which is exactly when the game started. I got home. I had it on delay on video. It took me like three hours to watch because, you know, once it's on video, you're pausing and they're down 29 at halftime. And I'm like, all right, I can't, I gotta watch this train wreck for whatever it's gonna be and figure out, you know, how I how I explain this to people when I celebrate it after we were up 2-0. Now we're tied at 2-2, and I'm looking like you know, I'm in danger because we're going back to San Antonio. Um, and then you know, the the the gods have decreed that this be the New York Knicks year and everything is breaking for us. And so um I'm I'm so so excited riding Cloud9 and especially happy because Garth Graham of Stratmore did nothing but give me shit about the Knicks when I saw him in Maine this week, and nothing made me happier than sending him a how do you like them apples text last night at around one o'clock his time. So go, Knicks.

SPEAKER_05 2:05

Massive fold, massive fold. That's probably that that is the worst coached second half you can possibly ever see. They they didn't burn the clock at all. They had Wemby out on the perimeter instead of underneath grabbing boards. Uh Fox, the veteran point guard who's supposed to be able to man the floor. He looked completely out of place. Dylan Harper was on the bench, I think the last six minutes of the game or something like that. Yep. Uh, that was terrible coaching.

SPEAKER_06 2:33

And the first time coach in the finals with a very young team, um, and the Knicks just don't quit. There have been there have been 20, and I sent this to you guys this morning. There have been in the last, I think, two years, five 20-point playoff comebacks by the New York Knicks. The rest of the league has four. So this is a team that does not quit. The Spurs played from a position of fear, not from a position of strength. Um, you could just tell that the urine was running down all of their collective legs.

SPEAKER_05 3:01

Um I appreciate that. And uh Aaron, good to see you. Good to see you, Aaron.

SPEAKER_02 3:14

Oh, hello.

SPEAKER_05 3:15

Fresh back uh from your trip to Maine. You and Cobes, the Cobster were there sending me all these pictures.

SPEAKER_02 3:20

Oh, it was glorious there, so nice.

SPEAKER_05 3:22

I was very jealous. I got several pictures actually um last week and early part of this week, and two really stood out to me. Um, yeah, there was the one with with uh Bob Broke Smith and and Kobe. That's a very nice picture. Bob looks like very happy there. He's got a smile on his face, uh, a mile wide. And then, of course, on the left, there's Paul Hindman. Look at this guy, best body on the beach, right there on the left for sure. And he's still doing okay. You know Paul, right? Everybody know Paul here?

SPEAKER_06 3:52

Yeah, Paul.

SPEAKER_05 3:53

Uh look at him in the Bay Area, too. That's the Golden Gate Bridge behind him. Yeah. He is uh he's the guy. Tell tell us before we get into our agenda, which is robust today. Give us a rundown of what you learned in Maine. Why were you there and and what were your takeaways?

SPEAKER_03 4:09

Well, I number one, I learned that southern Maine is far inferior to northern Maine with its pink granite. So that is that is one thing that I learned. Um and I don't know, Kobe, what was what was your big takeaway?

SPEAKER_06 4:21

Oh, the biggest takeaway was uh there was a there was one night, and you saw in the picture with Bob, uh, he's wearing a lobster bib. They served main lobster to everybody, uh, which you know was was wonderful. It was right by the the pool and the cliffs, and it was just a gorgeous evening. And um, I asked Aaron the next day, did you have any of the lobster? Because I didn't. I was busy putting together a crew to go out and watch the Knicks game, so I didn't have time to sit down and crack open a lobster. But I asked Erin the next day if she had one, and she said, uh, no, I would never eat a main lobster. I only eat lobster from where was it?

SPEAKER_03 4:51

Um, Australia and South Africa.

SPEAKER_06 4:53

Yeah. So we learned that like Aaron is like the most like elite lobster snob in the history of lobster. So that's what I that was my big takeaway. Who knows?

SPEAKER_03 5:01

But the NBA did an amazing job. What a great conference.

SPEAKER_05 5:04

The meetings were except for the lobster, in Aaron's opinion. What was the conference? What was the name of it?

SPEAKER_03 5:09

Chairman's.

SPEAKER_05 5:10

Okay. That's normally, and isn't that held down south normally?

SPEAKER_03 5:14

No, so the the person who's the chairman actually gets to pick the location. And Christine, while Maine or the Northeast didn't really have a particular connection for her, she really wanted to go somewhere that no, that we had never been before and somewhere on the East Coast, because that's I love that.

SPEAKER_05 5:30

I love that. More conferences should do that.

SPEAKER_03 5:33

Yeah, she did such a great job um picking location. MBA did a wonderful job putting the whole thing together. Um, I'm I it was definitely one of the best I've been to in a long time.

SPEAKER_05 5:42

Did she have an aphorism when she was there or no?

SPEAKER_02 5:48

I knew that one was gonna get pulled back out.

SPEAKER_05 5:51

Well, I'm just curious. And if anyone's wondering what that means.

SPEAKER_06 5:59

I don't know what happened here. Hold on a second.

SPEAKER_03 6:01

You're not good at playing on the first line.

SPEAKER_06 6:03

Just stop it. Stop aphorism to something that is a serious financial decision.

SPEAKER_02 6:07

Probably with the big words again.

SPEAKER_06 6:09

Yeah, dropping aphorism. Dropping aphorism, yeah. Some sort of saying or something that we say enough that we think it's true, even though it's just a saying. And that's what that's what Mary Down is. Uh A-P-H-O-R-I-S-M.

SPEAKER_05 6:22

Well done. Sixth grade spelling bee champion, Kobe Hackalier. Well done. All right, let's jump into it right now. Hey, um, we had a big merger several days ago between APM and Synergy One. We're gonna start it right there. Uh what the the kind of what and what it means to the industry. I had Steve Majeris on my program one-on-one about a year ago, June 2nd, 2000. Is someone doing electric shaving here? What is that noise?

SPEAKER_06 6:50

That's that's that's that's unfortunately outside my house right now.

SPEAKER_05 6:54

Are you sure, Kobe? Put your hands up, please.

SPEAKER_06 6:59

It's not, it's not me.

SPEAKER_05 7:03

I don't know if it was trim time. Uh okay, good. Very glad to be able to do it.

SPEAKER_06 7:07

It's never it's never a bad time for personal hygiene. Even during the surrender.

SPEAKER_05 7:12

Amen.

SPEAKER_02 7:13

When you gotta do it, you gotta do it.

SPEAKER_05 7:14

Of course, yeah. Anyway, all right. I I digress, of course.

SPEAKER_06 7:17

What's what's funny is that what's funny is that I got home last night from my trip and I noticed that my gardener had not mowed the lawn. And so I texted him at like five this morning. I'm like, hey, you usually come on Wednesdays, what's up? And he's like, Oh, I'm so sorry, we'll be there right away, which means exactly when this show started. So that was my fault. I I put that in motion.

SPEAKER_05 7:34

But you should bring you you should bring your I want to know what it's like to be your lawnmower guy. If there's a way to bring your lawnmower guy onto the show, that would be that would be something for the ages. So just think about that as we continue here. Um, all right. So, so uh APM and Synergy One. I had Steve Majaris on my my program one-on-one, which airs Monday at one on LinkedIn. Uh, this was about a year ago, and he gave us a glimpse. You know, I asked him about the future and and how he was thinking about the future, and this was his answer, and then we'll get into the merger.

SPEAKER_00 8:08

You know, you know, a very um enthusiastic but measured approach to growth. It seems like all roads kind of in discussions still lead to what the rate environment is going to allow and and therefore dictate. Um loans are hard to come by. Um the origination market is not uh not robust. And so I think us refining and retooling our value prop that we, you know, get helping loan officers become and stay relevant for achieving greater and greater market share is really gonna be the focus of our company.

SPEAKER_05 8:49

Yeah, and I think the when you think about this, it's really uh anastomosis, is what this is, of course, which is two powerful pipelines now flowing as one network. Anastomosis is probably what you were you were gonna use that word, Kobe, if I didn't. I'm sure you know it well. It's on the tip of my tongue. Do you want to spell it? You want to try and spell it? Anastomosis. I I I don't want to show you. You are spelling B ch you should show off, please. Anastomosis. Go ahead, Kobe.

SPEAKER_06 9:18

Yeah, a N A S T O. Yeah. Anastamosis. A-N-A-S-T-O-M-O-S-I-S. Wow. Is that right?

SPEAKER_02 9:31

Talented, dude. Talented.

SPEAKER_05 9:33

Holy shit. You crushed it. Wait, look, guys at your door, bring him in. Look, the guys at your door. Kobe, get up. Come on. I'm serious. Oh my god. He is he is at my door. He's at your door. Come on, get up.

SPEAKER_06 9:43

He actually just knocked at my door. Do you want me to bring him up in the door?

SPEAKER_05 9:45

Yeah, bring him in. Let's go. Come on.

SPEAKER_03 9:47

Do it.

SPEAKER_05 9:47

This is this is wild.

SPEAKER_03 9:49

I only know Anastomosis from Gray's Anatomy, by the way.

SPEAKER_05 9:51

Asking you, shall receive. What's going on here?

SPEAKER_02 9:55

The universe is working for you.

SPEAKER_05 9:56

Have him sit down at the table.

unknown 9:59

Oh, hang on.

SPEAKER_02 10:00

Hey.

SPEAKER_05 10:01

Hey, how are you?

SPEAKER_03 10:02

Can you can you go to my show?

SPEAKER_05 10:04

Hi, how are you? Have a seat, sir.

SPEAKER_03 10:06

Nice to meet you.

SPEAKER_05 10:07

Come on in. Come on in.

SPEAKER_06 10:09

So he's he's actually not my uh he's not he's not the gardener. He's here for a different thing in the house.

SPEAKER_05 10:14

He's got something for everybody, man.

SPEAKER_06 10:17

We're having a wild, wild morning here. I'm sorry about that.

SPEAKER_05 10:20

Oh all right, anyway. Um so let's talk about this this acquisition. Uh, first of all, take a look at the heat map courtesy of Redder, and we can see what APM, which is which has done roughly uh 11 billion in the last 12 months. Uh that they are in green and you've got synergy one in purple. And this is a really cool tool that Redder created about a year ago. Steve Wynins, the founder, uh co-founder of Redder, um, came up with this idea so that when companies are looking at uh at merging or is Kobe talking to himself? What's going on here? That's very strange.

SPEAKER_02 10:58

Um when when serious OD uh like ODHD?

SPEAKER_05 11:03

ODHD, what is that? Like it's like I I lost my meds. I can't find them anywhere.

SPEAKER_02 11:12

Stay on target.

SPEAKER_05 11:13

I mean, the guy's distracting me. He's got people at the door, he's got trimmers going off, he's got a painter in there. What do you want me to do? He's muting and talking, like it's my fault.

SPEAKER_02 11:21

As long as his masseuse doesn't show up, we'll be fine.

SPEAKER_06 11:23

Yeah, I'm so sorry.

SPEAKER_05 11:24

This is like the worst. That's all right. Should we start over? Oh no, we're live. We can't.

SPEAKER_02 11:28

This is a serious program, Kobe.

SPEAKER_06 11:29

Anastomosis. Let's go.

SPEAKER_05 11:31

All right. So this is uh it's it looks like a pretty good, I mean, obviously, you're never gonna be when you're talking 15 billion in volume for its energy one, 12 at 8 p.m. or 11 at 8 p.m., you're never gonna be perfect in terms of where you are vacant and where you are doing a lot of business, but this really looks to make a lot of sense. And Steve Majoris, someone that I've gotten to know really well over the years, you know, would I have to give him a lot of credit for being patient because it's not a big secret that Synergy One has flirted with other partners before in the past. Um, and it was never about desperation. They've always been doing well, but they owe I think Steve has got this abundance mindset where he he's he's always open to the idea that all of us is better than one of us, or you know, the sum of us, whatever the saying is. And in this role, he gets to be president. And I know that he wanted to hang on and be a big part of whatever was next. And so I really tip my cap to him. And now they're a $15 billion juggernaut. Aaron, what do you think?

SPEAKER_03 12:35

Listen, I mean, by all accounts, uh this is a great fit for both companies. I think I read in an article that there might be some overlap with loan officers that are they're not too happy about it. But in the end, this just seems like a really good fit. I mean, you know, we talked earlier this week. My brain just always goes towards consolidation and what that means. You know, this industry has been put under a lot of pressure in a lot of ways in the last few years, and it's making consolidation make sense, make it necessary. Uh, we've got to lower our cost to originate, our cost to produce as an industry. Um, I'm just constantly looking to make sure that, you know, we're not consolidating to the point where consumers are losing options, where where we're be where there's a systemic risk to the system, right? Because we are so consolidated. And so I love the small IMB. I I think I love working for one. I always have. And so I just hope that other smaller, smaller uh lending institutions work really, really hard on staying competitive, lowering that cost to originate so that we don't have to be consolidated if we don't want to.

SPEAKER_06 13:37

Yeah, two mid-size IMBs here that have now combined for some serious scale. I think this puts them both in the top 10. Um, and look, to your point, Steve was was definitely uh methodical about this, and and it was no secret in the industry that he was looking to do something to the point where uh there were a lot of people recruiting his loan officers, saying that the reason he was doing this was because of financial instability. If you recall about a year or so ago, Steve came out and put a video out saying, you know, we're financially sound. And to those of you who were trying to recruit my loan officers saying we're not, you know, I'm I'm I'm gonna rebut that. And he did it publicly, which was a great move. And you don't see a lot of that happening where somebody comes out and says, Hey, you know, just leave my people alone because we're we're in good shape to the extent that that has impact. But the fact that he did it, I thought was was a great move. Um and uh, you know, I'm I'm I'm excited to see what'll happen with these two companies. Yes, there's a lot of overlap in production, but it's not like there's there's overlap to where they're now it's 120% of the market and somebody's gonna lose. You can have um, you know, two loan officers from two companies now coming together that both have market presence with, you know, two different realtors, um, and and this just gives them uh economies of scale. Uh, I think we're gonna see a lot more of this in the future, meaning in the next 12 to 18 months of mid-sized companies coming together to try to achieve that scale because we know margins are thinning and this is the way they're gonna look to to build and to and to be profitable. So I think more to come.

SPEAKER_05 15:03

Aaron, you said something interesting when we were looking at this topic, and that was the you know, you kind of peeled it back a little bit now, but I want you to go a little deeper on your concern that, you know, longer term, as we get more of these consolidation moves, that the consumer might not have enough choices. I mean, what what is that, what is that threshold by which you'd be concerned that they would cross over there?

SPEAKER_03 15:26

Yeah, you know, I think just if you get to the point where right now consolidation is actually, I think, helping consumers because when you have companies come together, create economies, lower their costs to produce, that actually helps the consumer. And so I think once once that stops happening, once you stop being able to combine lower costs, right, where you only have a few players in the market to where they're not competing for the customer's business as much, right? Where you just have these, you have four choices. Well, they're not going to be competing for business the same as if you're competing with a hundred other lenders. And and that's the concern that I have is wanting to maintain a robust competitive environment for consumers. Um, when Rohi Chopra was still the director of the CFPB, I met with him twice. I had the opportunity to um with the mortgage collaborative, and he both times expressed his sincere concern about industry consolidation as well. And so, you know, I don't I don't know what that looks like for future CFPBs, but it's it's something that's on the Fed's radar as well. And so as long as we can continue um to provide a better and cheaper experience for consumers, I think it's good. But the second that changes, I don't know what that number is, but the second that changes, then that's where I have a problem with it. And one of the things I enjoy working at the mid-sized IMBs is that as a decision maker, I'm close to the ground. I'm close to the field where my loan officers are living every single day. I spend time out in the field. I talk to them regularly. I'm not so far removed from my loan officers as the COO that I don't know what they're experiencing. And I think that that it's important for the decision makers at a company to be very close to the field. And the bigger you get, the more layers you have, the more you lose that.

SPEAKER_05 17:08

Yeah. See, I look at it more from the standpoint of, you know, are there a lot of banks out there? Are there a lot of credit unions? Are there a lot of uh people in the wholesale broker lending channels? So there's still a lot of options, right? I mean, so I mean, there's online lenders, there's there's, you know, self-generated community lenders. So I don't know. I don't I don't I think that when we get to that point where a few are doing the most, then that's when you'll see an uprising and more people will enter the market. So I'm not that concerned, but certainly a legitimate, uh legitimate concern. And these things are difficult. These are not easy things. I mean, you take however many employees uh that that synergy one has. I'm guessing, you know, we've we do eight, nine billion, they do half of our volume, we have 1200 employees. So let's just call it 500 employees for them, something like that. Like it's it's never easy uh to meld these companies together. But I feel like if anybody can do it, Steve Majoris can. You know, to your point, Kobe, people tried to pick them apart, and they lost some people, but for the most part, they had a lot of loyalty there. And I think it starts with with him and Aaron Nemick and and the other great people in leadership there. Any last comments on on uh on the move?

SPEAKER_03 18:24

I mean, it just also helps to slim slim out employment in the in the field, right? I mean, these there there's always going to be attrition when you when you look at at consolidation like this. And so what does it also mean for employment?

SPEAKER_05 18:34

Yeah, it's a great question. Uh great question for sure. All right, now we are gonna go pivot into marry the house, date the rate. This is uh this sounds like a game show. This is a really interesting uh topic, especially in light of the fact that that slogan really became famous in around 2022 when rates started to shoot up. They were ascending uh mightily, right, off the lows and heading to seven, eight percent uh in that range. And and now uh comes some statistics, which led me to make a post recently that Mary the House Date the Rate uh has not aged too well. And and this this stat just came out. Um delinquencies and foreclosures are creeping higher, concentrated among recent FHA buyers. Foreclosure starts rose to roughly 37,000 with filings up 26% year over year, and the strain is heaviest among borrowers who purchased from 2022, and we you know, and up. And we're talking about you know, marry the house, um, date the rate. And I think we've all uh seen some some of that stuff, but you know, here's one example, and there's there's thousands of them online, thousands of people like this that were pushing this idea.

SPEAKER_01 19:51

Marry the home date Don't do this to me again.

SPEAKER_05 19:56

I swear.

SPEAKER_01 19:56

All right, marry the home, date the rate. What does that mean? Commit yourself to buying a home. Don't be a renter that's on the sidelines. Buy the home that you love that you want to raise your kids in, and then date the rate. What does that mean? That means that you're just dating casually, that you're not committed to a 30-year relationship with them. That at any point in time, if the rates drop, you're gonna drop that rate that you currently have and get the new rate. See, your payment is fixed for now, but it could be lowered if the rates go lower, which I think ultimately they will.

SPEAKER_05 20:24

So see, it's that last part, which I think ultimately they will. That guy's an expert, not calling him out, you know, in particular, but many people were propagating this thing, this idea that rates were definitely going to go down and go down very soon. So I had this post that I that I had on LinkedIn saying that it just essentially hasn't aged well. And the data coming out is further proof, further evidence, and I got a lot of pushback. Kevin Parano, uh, my good friend KP said, no, you're wrong. Barry Habib said it's actually worked out great. Um, Julian Hebron, uh, with you know, something that really caught me uh off guard and taken aback by this, and and that is um, as you know, consumers have zero obligation um on a prepaid penalty loan to stick with current lender and who'd rather not get hit with a an EPO. If rates drop, um which they do in these tough years, uh blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. Um, an EPO should never stand in the way of a consumer taking advantage of that. Shouldn't current lender either eat the EPO or make peace with losing the client? Kobe, I know you have a lot to say about this.

SPEAKER_06 21:35

Yeah. Um, you know, so the the marry the house, date the rate, you know, there there's there's a caveat to that, which is if we're telling consumers, marry the house, date the rate, but make sure that whatever the payment is now, you're able to afford if you never get a lower rate. And that also be cognizant that your insurance and taxes are probably going to go up because here's what they've done the last five years. If we're painting the entire picture and and Part of that picture is that you might have a chance to save money, you might, with a capital M. That's one thing. Um, the the the other caveat to this, and it ties into the into the EPO conversation, is if we're putting loan officers out there, let's say this is a company policy to say, hey, go out there and tell your customers that it's a good time to buy because they're going to be able to refinance. And then they so the loan officers go out and do that. The customer then winds up three months later, four months later, finding a dip in the rates and refinances. And now we're clawing back that compensation from the loan officer. Um, well, I think there's some there's some misaligned uh values and and and and missions there. Um, so you know, I'm I'm I'm not sure that giving any advice to consumers making the biggest purchase of their life that's based on something that's catchy is what we should be doing in general. Um, and I also think there's some misalignment between what we're encouraging people to do and what we actually want them to do. Because if we're telling people marry the house, date the rate, but only if it dips after the first six months, so you can make all of your payments and the service or doesn't, you know, put a claw back in there for some of the commission, um, then we're not really giving them the full picture of what's going on.

SPEAKER_03 23:09

Yeah, I mean, I never liked the say the expression. I thought it was dumb anyway. I mean, what we do is serious business, and like so to try to sell based on like a slogan just seemed stupid. Um, but I, you know, I I think in in terms of the EPO, at the end of the day, EPOs exist and they are a thing, right? And so where there's a clawback, it's because the LO comp agreement states my commission is prepaid and it's not fully earned until after six payments have made or whatever, giving the LO or the lender the right for for EPO. And so, you know, if you want to look and if you want to look at that and say, well, we shouldn't be clawing back EPOs, then you know, that's that's I think is a much different case because then you're asking you know the lender to take on all this additional financial risk. And so does that change what they're willing to pay in compensation for it?

SPEAKER_05 23:58

Yeah, and Barry pointed out that there have been at least I think he estimated 10 or so uh opportunities where people uh 10 specific opportunities to have refinanced your clients over the past three years to much low to much lower rates. I mean, I hate to disagree with Barry. The guy is a just a living legend. I love him, I worship the ground he walks on, actually, uh, for the most part. But I don't understand here what Barry's saying, that the facts do not agree with my statement. And, you know, he's he's defending uh Mary the House date the rate as being, you know, something that was not a bad thing, that wasn't bad for the industry. I mean, at the end of the day, thousands of consumers got their houses based on the manipulative slogan. And believe me, there were a lot of people that said to their loan officers, I'm just not sure what to do. I just don't know. I see the trajectory of rates. I can't, you know, I can only afford this payment for a couple of years in my savings. And there are plenty of loan officers that said, you don't worry about it. Like, you know, here's this chart, here's that chart. Let me forecast for you. You'll be able to refinance. And by the way, here's what it looks like a percent lower. Imagine that payment, right? Yeah. So very irresponsible. I think what I really want to say is how can we learn from this? How can we walk away and recognize it next time so that as it's happening, we step forward and say, you know what? No, don't do that. Because I don't feel like a lot of I don't feel like a lot of people did that. I feel like a lot of desperation sat in and and people were all about it.

SPEAKER_03 25:26

Yeah, I mean, I think to Kobe's point earlier, we have to make sure that we're having actual conversations with consumers about what they can afford and what the reality of it is. And if you have the opportunity to refinance down the road, then that's fantastic. You have equity and a lower LTV or a better rate, whatever, right? Um, but what we do is serious and it's it's a big investment for people. And if they don't do it right, there are massive consequences to their own personal credit, their own personal financial situation. And so that's what we need to focus on is that is that we're we're helping people with a major decision and we need to treat it that way.

SPEAKER_06 26:00

Are you proposing, Greg, that this that this rose to the level of predatory? Because you put up that that graphic of the 37,000, and then you talked about you know how many people were impacted and by loan officers being manipulative. So are you saying this rose to the level of of predatory activity on the part of loan officers?

SPEAKER_05 26:16

I mean, I'm not I I'm not an attorney, but consumers were misled. So if you call that predatory lending, sure, it happened.

SPEAKER_06 26:23

Well, predatory in terms of manipulation, in terms of putting people in a position that they shouldn't have been in, or that they mean that's otherwise.

SPEAKER_05 26:29

I mean, I mean, you want to get a you know, a class action together. You know how many consumers would be willing to say that they were uh convinced, uh even had their arms twisted to go get go in on a mortgage based on a promise that was made by an expert. I mean, at the end of the day, on the other end of the communication and the loan is a loan officer that professes to be an expert that knows the trends, right? And the other thing is you want to comment on it before I saw you you roll your eyes. That's normally meaning you have something to say. I I'm getting to know you pretty well, Kobe. I didn't roll my eyes. By the way, yes, you did.

SPEAKER_01 27:04

By the way, that's me thinking.

SPEAKER_05 27:06

Who's who's next? Is it UPS, FedEx, Domino's? Who's knocking next?

SPEAKER_06 27:12

Uh, this is what happens when you're on the road all week, and then all of a sudden you come home and like you've got you know, and and I and I told these people not to show up during this time, so of course they're all showing up exactly when I told them not to.

SPEAKER_05 27:23

You need a sign. We need to we need to contribute, Aaron.

SPEAKER_06 27:26

I need to establish a perimeter around the house, like they did around Madison Square Garden, um to keep the fans away. I need like you know, 60 feet of of privacy.

SPEAKER_05 27:34

Just no yellow tape, otherwise the TV crews will show up, okay?

SPEAKER_07 27:38

That's true. Yeah, we all want that.

SPEAKER_05 27:40

We don't want any yellow tape. All right, we have a lot more to get to here. The CFPB turning lenders into ice. This is a really interesting topic that you unpacked earlier this week, Kobe. Um, CFP just CFPB just uh issued new guidance on June 8th telling lenders they can and sometimes must consider a borrower's immigration status when judging their ability to repay credit cards and mortgages under Regulation Z. What in the hell is going on here?

SPEAKER_06 28:09

Yeah, I mean, just uh more of the uh lending industry being used as an extension of a political agenda. Uh, and we all know what that political agenda is right now, which is a heavy emphasis on ICE activity and and monitoring those that are in this country that some people wish weren't. Um, you know, we've seen unprecedented levels of of ICE and deportation activity and and and some that that is really cause for concern. Uh, and now it seems like the lending industry is being co-opted into that. Uh, and and this this directive doesn't call out ITIN loans specifically saying you should not make ITIN loans, but it does say this is where you'll find a lot of that, uh, a lot of those issues. And and this then moved from a reg B, which does allow you to consider some of the uh you know borrowers' uh ability to the ATR, which which kind of shifts the focus a little bit and makes it even more onerous for lenders. And then it also in this directive threw out uh the ICOA, which is that, you know, as a reminder, you can't discriminate based on someone's nationality or origin. So which one is it? Uh it's it's the noose and the rope all in one, as I put in my LinkedIn post. And the net result, the net result are two things. One, um, lenders, if they're going to turn down a loan because they believe that the borrower may lose their visa or be deported, they're gonna have to record that. So now you've got streams and streams of data across the country by various lenders of people that they've made adverse decisions on, thinking, well, they they'll probably get deported. And and what a great list that would be for ICE. Uh, number one. Number two, guess what happens when the regulations are murky? And uh Ballard Sparr, the big CFPB law firm, came out and said this is unenforceable. Uh no one understands how to how to interpret this. So the natural, the natural endpoint of this is that lenders are going to just get out of the ITIN business. Why bother if it's such a minefield? And the administration clearly doesn't want these kinds of activities going on. So um I at at best it's it's it's it's the program going away. At worst, it's trying to uh put some sort of police action into what the lenders are doing as far as policing our borrowers and creating data around it. Um, it's got so many negative implications as far as I'm concerned. And uh I think we should all be very concerned about it. The NBA, I know, is we I had a chance to talk to uh some of the MBA policy people this week in Maine. It's it's definitely on their radar and and uh and high up on their radar. What they can do about it, they're not sure at this point, but it should be it should be concerning for every one of us. Well, I know how concerned should lenders be.

SPEAKER_03 30:39

I mean, I think we should definitely be concerned, right? I mean, this is one of the few uh areas that that Trump is winning on in public opinion. It follows on the heels of FHA uh not allowing permanent resident aliens and then using that policy change to say that if they were preventing illegal or undocumente um immigrants from obtaining loans when that wasn't happening in the first place. Um, and so I think the one of the concerns that I have here is is there going to be a pendulum swing to where it's not it's gonna affect more than just ITIN loans because it is, it is murky. It does create, it does create grayness. And when you have like a we have a risk-based business in compliance, people see that, right? Are they going to to restrict even further to people who are here truly legally? And is this really gonna put these people in in in and make them unlendable when they should be? And so I'm just I am very concerned about the pendulum swinging and and what it's going to have outside of just even the I-10 market.

SPEAKER_05 31:38

Well, this is going to increase compliance burdens too on mortgage companies.

SPEAKER_03 31:41

Correct.

SPEAKER_05 31:42

Do we all have to become immigration experts now?

SPEAKER_03 31:45

I mean, like you know, try doing try doing a loan right now anyway with somebody who has a C1 visa and the EAD is expired, right? I mean, that's you're all we already have to do some of that, you know, just to document their legal status. Now, we do have a new CFPB director that was just nominated yesterday, and I hear really great things so far from my people in DC about them. They're pretty excited. And so, you know, maybe that'll be uh an adult in the room that can have a conversation about this.

SPEAKER_05 32:13

Kobe, anything you want to touch on here? I know that you you've drove this slide home.

SPEAKER_06 32:17

Yeah, you know, I I think I think I touched on all the points in in my comments, but uh, you know, the real exposure being, you know, private Tilla lawsuits, secondary market buyback risk, um, and the likely result overlays, pricing, or pullback in ITIN lending. And by the way, ITIN lending is some of the best performing loans because the down payments are larger and there's skin in the game. And and this is just another example of the administration talking out of both sides of its mouth where it's trying to encourage more broader uh products in terms of lending, in terms of more access to the market, but at the same time quietly putting restrictions in place to limit it.

SPEAKER_05 32:49

All right, we're gonna flip now over to uh better.com and Coinbase because uh they are in business together. And what we're looking at right now, or scrolling uh to learn more about this product they have, which is partially backed by crypto that you pledge that you can't liquidate as long as it's tied up into this mortgage. According to my good friend Kobe Hackelear, uh the exposure is on better. Um, I think Fanny, is it Fanny that does the first loan or Freddie? I think it's Fannie, yeah. Um but you know, here here are some of the risks, and then we'll dive into this. Um what happens if my Bitcoin goes down? Bitcoin's um you'll never be asked to add more collateral, but if you miss a mortgage payment, um, you have 30 days to bring your account current. If you remain delinquent for 60 days, better mortgage may liquidate your pledged crypto. Um I'm concerned about this. I don't like it at all. I mean, I am a crypto holder, I don't own a ton, believe me, but um I feel like you look at the demographic of who owns crypto, it's it's mostly Gen Z and millennials, and a lot of them are first-time home buyers. Is this the entree we want them to have by risking an asset we don't have enough data on to get this mortgage? Kobe, your opinion?

SPEAKER_06 34:14

Sounds to me like better is taking most of the risk here. Uh there's a 250% risk weighting. So $100,000 down payment requires a $250,000 pledge, um, which can never be margin-called unless you miss two payments on the crypto loan, not on the underlying Fanny loan. That has normal Fannie and uh um you know default and and and foreclosure procedures as it indicated in what you just showed. Uh, but better is taking all the risk here. That's what about the consumer?

SPEAKER_05 34:41

What about the consumer? They're not taking the risk. The the 27-year-old that uh that's always dreamed about have you're shaking your head. How how can you say that they're not taking any risk here?

SPEAKER_06 34:51

Because what are they what are they risking?

SPEAKER_05 34:52

If they're risking they're risking the ability to pivot in and out of their money for one, right? It's a two to two and a half to one ratio, whatever it is, 250 to put up a hundred grand. My understanding is they can they can't get out of that.

SPEAKER_06 35:04

That's not a risk. That's not a risk.

SPEAKER_05 35:06

What if they start to see they start to see the market go down? They could get out of that asset and into something safer, perhaps.

SPEAKER_06 35:12

They have that option, they have that option to pay it off. They're not they're making a financial decision, not taking the risk. Better is taking the risk because they can't margin call if that asset underlying asset drops 80%, as long as that customer keeps making the payment on it, then they can't foreclose on it. And they they there's and they're left holding the bag. And if it drops to zero, well, guess what? The customer still has to make the payment, but that would have been the same thing that they would have been doing if they were saving up for the down payment. But they've lost their they've lost their underlying asset, but they can't they can't flip out of that.

SPEAKER_05 35:41

They can't flip out of that that easily, as you're saying. So if you if you if you grab a hundred grand and you pledge 250 of Bitcoin, you're making it like a week later they can just call and be like, oh, we're just gonna, we're just gonna take that money. I mean, I think that better becomes the custodian of that money, is my understanding. Yeah, so so how is it that it it's so easy if something and the other thing is, are we sending the right message to young to younger people who have never bought a home that they should be taking this kind of a risk? Aaron, why are you smiling at me?

SPEAKER_03 36:11

Because the data the data on my face, you do, you do, uh, but you usually do. So that's fine.

SPEAKER_05 36:16

Thank you, thank you very much.

SPEAKER_03 36:17

Right. Okay, so so that video you just played is where you can go to better's website and enter to join the wait list for a to to join the the pilot. And look, it's the this is the same disclaimer language that we talked about a few weeks ago. All this is is a for pardon the pun, it's a better mousetrap for lead funnel. That's all this is. If you look at the data, oh uh what is it? Uh 74% of Bitcoin owners only own 0.01 Bitcoin or less, only 2.3% own one full Bitcoin or more, and better themselves in their their marketing material. This is only a $250 million pilot or whatever, right? And so one, it's a small, it's a very small amount. And two, the the the audience with which can do anything with this is so small. This is just a new way to get leads in the top of the funnel that that is creative and hasn't been done. And and and I honestly I don't have a problem with somebody putting out an a new innovative product, right? I mean, this is a fanny loan. So at the end of the day, the taxpayers do hold risk on this. Um, and so you know, if if there are losses through foreclosure, um, but you've got down payment with Bitcoin, and so and better is taking that that first risk, right? And so the the that's where the only reason I would have problem is if the taxpayers were going to be on the hook for this. Better's taking a big stake in it, and it's a very, very small number of people, and it's mostly just for lead funnel.

SPEAKER_05 37:48

I mean, I like I I appreciate that perspective. That makes me think about it in a different way, that they're able to generate leads. That is very hard to do at the top of the funnel. Better's obviously very good at it. Let me give you some statistics from better's own wait list. 76% are Coinbase users, 37% hold 500,000 or more in crypto. 63% plan to buy a home within six months.

SPEAKER_06 38:13

So, so let me ask you something. If you're if you're looking at on who's on that wait list, are you that worried that these people are not financially sophisticated enough to make a decision like this, to to pledge some of their assets to buy a home? Or is it the extension of all of the calls we've had in our industry to be more creative, more innovative, open up lending to more people? Yet every time somebody tries to do that, we get pushback saying, you know, is this going to be dangerous for our consumers? Can they really handle this? Are they aware enough to do it? Uh the truth is, it's our job to create these products, be innovative, and then also educate consumers. And if we do that, then we've got a healthy and balanced market. If we shut the door every time we see something new come into the market because we're afraid that somebody may misunderstand it or may misinterpret it and get themselves in trouble, that's going to be very, very uh pernicious for our industry over the next 10 years.

SPEAKER_03 39:03

Well, and the Federal Reserve did a study, so it's not some like radical group. It's the Federal Reserve did a study showing that Bitcoin investors are significantly more financially literate than non-bitcoin owners. So so you know, yeah.

SPEAKER_05 39:17

I'd like to see who commissioned that study. I want to know who did that study.

SPEAKER_03 39:20

The Federal Reserve.

SPEAKER_05 39:22

Yeah. I'd like to see it. Uh I want to see it. Yeah, I'm gonna peel that one back.

SPEAKER_02 39:27

All right.

SPEAKER_05 39:28

I'm peeling back that onion. Keep going.

SPEAKER_03 39:32

That's it. I that that that's it, right? So so you're not dealing with some Poe Dunk backwoods, you know, youngsters who don't know what they're doing. You're talking about a cohort that is financially literate and that is is set up to understand the transaction better than than others.

SPEAKER_05 39:47

Bitcoin's at 63,000 right now. Do you know how far off its high it is?

SPEAKER_03 39:54

Half?

SPEAKER_05 39:55

50%. It was it was at $126,000.

SPEAKER_03 39:58

Yeah.

SPEAKER_05 39:59

So that shows the volatility of this asset. What it tells you that we're at a period in a period of time with rates high, with uh, according to you, Kobe, uh a surplus problem, right? Um terms of inventory is concerned, and we've got uh property values going down at the same time, and we have Bitcoin that has been halved. So, what tells you this is the right time for this experiment, regardless of how big, because I didn't get to answer your question, because your question was how concerned are you about these people that have 500,000? That's really not what I'm saying. It's more of the perception thing. It's like the marry the house date the rate. Enough people see this, hear this, get excited, get caught up into that funnel and think, oh my goodness, I can use Bitcoin for this, that, and the other thing. I think it can have residual impacts that go beyond a mortgage. I think it can get into the psyche and force, not force, but encourage the people that hold it, the younger people, who now Aaron tells me, according to the Federal Reserve, are more literate than the average human. That's amazing. I do want to read that. Um, but that they'll know better. It's all it's to me, it's nah. I'm not I'm not all about it. Any any other uh any other closing statements or any other thing?

SPEAKER_06 41:14

Yeah, I mean, I think you're I think I think you're you're painting with the widest possible brush, the real estate market. Values are not going down in all markets. There are not supply issues in all markets. Uh, there are borrowers that are more sophisticated than others when it comes to first timers, and there are products that work for some and not for all. Uh, and I think we have to take that all of the above approach when we're trying to solve the problems we have, because number one, they're they're they're very unique in all 3,000 counties that we have in the United States, and uh the problems have to be solved in different ways for different folks, and we have to figure out what we can do to reach the broadest possible amount of people with the broadest amount of solutions. That's it.

SPEAKER_05 41:52

And the other the other thing is the other reason this is bullshit, uh, you know, at a on a more global level, is what does this do for the first-time homebuyer? What does this do for the struggling person that's sitting with a 622 FICO that can't get into a home? What does that do for we're talking about the more affluent people that, according to the Federal Reserve, know what they're doing? You're looking at this going, oh, 500,000 or more. How worried are you about this people? This is just another thing that takes the eye off the ball we should be focusing on. And that is figuring out ways to get people into houses that are on the outside looking in, sitting at a 40-year affordability woe. Okay.

SPEAKER_06 42:28

But there, but there are solutions, right? The Urban Institute wants you to do a hundred percent FHA loan. So people are being creative with solutions for the people that have Bitcoin and don't have Bitcoin, and maybe and and the entire reason for that 100% FHA loan is precisely because they feel that that can that market segment is not financially sophisticated, and the DPA barriers and the gifts is what are preventing those 14 million extra entrants into the market. So there are people examining different segments of the market. I don't agree with what the Urban Institute is doing. Um, I think that that's a slippery slope there, but I think that they are addressing that segment of the market that you think is forgotten.

SPEAKER_03 43:01

Well, and these these these people that are pledging their Bitcoin, otherwise they would be selling and liquidating it to purchase a home, right? And so it's allowing them to retain it.

SPEAKER_05 43:10

The loophole is the cap gains. You don't have to so for people that got it at 10,000 that are sitting at 60 now, they can just roll it into the purchase of the home and lock that up. Um, so that is the other side of it. Yes, they could liquidate and and honestly, they should. I feel like they should liquidate it. I mean, who am I to say that they should? It's just an opinion, okay? But you know, why not do it the traditional sense? If you're comfortable, you know, putting that money in, put it all the way in.

SPEAKER_03 43:34

Don't just keep doing it the way we've always done it.

SPEAKER_05 43:37

Don't have don't half step into a gimmick, is what I'm saying. Um, and I'm not suggesting we keep doing it the way we've done it. I'm not that old and crusty. I am wearing fresh underwear, okay? Just so you know.

SPEAKER_03 43:49

What's your definition of fresh?

SPEAKER_05 43:53

Only worn three days in a row. Major improvement for me. Fresh for this week. Oh my goodness.

SPEAKER_02 44:02

He's wearing his June underwear.

SPEAKER_05 44:04

Hey, hey, how about how about well how about we uh sunset um or give some kind of a a period of time where we waive MIP um for first-time homebuyers or something like that? I don't know. I mean, I'm I I know I'm I'm stretching into an area and this is not better's fault, but to me, this is a part, this there's a lot of threads to this. And I think that it the timing's not good, the perception's not good, and and uh it's sending the wrong message, and we should continue to like have our eye on on the biggest problem we have in mortgage right now, and that's affordability. And I know you would argue that this does that, but again, these are well-to-do people that are great with their money. So which one is it?

SPEAKER_03 44:45

Well, this is a government program.

SPEAKER_05 44:48

Huh?

SPEAKER_03 44:48

It's not a government program, right?

SPEAKER_05 44:50

I get it, I understand. No, I totally get that. I although I applaud better for this. Yeah, the government, uh, I'm uh the government supports that. I know you you applaud better.

SPEAKER_06 45:00

Yeah, I mean they're taking they're taking risk here, but they're coming. This is this wasn't this was uh Bill Poulty, the DNI. This was him saying we should have crypto-based mortgages, crypto-backed mortgages. This is an offshoot of that. Um, and and so I I think what better's doing is yes, I think they're taking a lot of risk here, but I applaud them for putting new and innovative markets and getting interest from people that have an interest in housing that feel like maybe they don't have the ability to get into the market. Well, here's a here's a way in.

SPEAKER_05 45:29

And what's behind that push, Poulti's push, you think? Could it have anything to do with the fact that the Trumps are knee deep in crypto, even have their own coin, or is it nothing to do with that? Is is he just being really innovative, Bill Poulti?

SPEAKER_06 45:41

Uh well, you tell me. I mean, you like the guy.

SPEAKER_05 45:43

I mean, is he is he I like him, but don't be confused. Don't don't confl don't conflate here, Kobe.

SPEAKER_06 45:48

Do I feel like do I feel like there's there's a there's a monetary interest that's at play in this agenda? Sure, but this one happens to align with opening up housing for more people. And some sometimes sometimes both things can be true.

SPEAKER_05 46:01

Okay. Let's uh let's jump into another topic here. This is our our our last but not least. We're gonna talk about this this latest jobs report. Aaron, I know you have a lot to say about this. Uh the numbers were pretty were pretty uh audacious, but uh misleading, you believe?

SPEAKER_03 46:18

I think so. And and the reason I think this is important is because uh uh Cleveland Fed press Beth Hammett came out um after the jobs, the the Joltz report last week and basically said that based on this data, she thinks the job market is in balance. She thinks that she thinks that it gives further evidence for a rate hike. Now, inflation is probably going to drive that decision no matter what. But I think if we're going to have our just policymakers make decisions based on these data, then we need to really dig into it. Um, so the beat, um, the the estimate was uh 80,000. It came in at 170,000. So pretty big beat, right? By 92,000. But looking at the numbers, 70,000 of those jobs were in health and hospitality services. I think 48,000 alone were strictly in restaurants and bars. And those numbers are attributed to the World Cup. If you look at the job listings in the 11 World Cup cities, they were up 30% over the prior month's average. And all other cities were down by 23% on average. So, you know, you had this huge beat, almost the entirety of the beat was taken up by these jobs numbers and hospitality that are driven by the World Cup, which is temporary, which is part-time in some cases, right? So, so I don't think that the jobs picture is what we were making it out to be uh based on the Joltz numbers. And I think next month, I'm looking forward to seeing next month what the numbers look like in comparison. Are we, what is the revision, if any, going to look look like? But I think it does make sense. You have all of these additional openings where you've got the World Cup coming, right? Um, and then if you look on the flip side, we just had the highest number of cuts announced since the pandemic. Warn numbers or the warn, the advance notice for layoffs indicate 208,000 jobs are going to be cut through layoffs. And then the that chart that I had up there showed consumer sentiment. So it it graphed this is Danielle DiMartino both, QI research. Love them. If you don't know Danielle, follow her, she's great. Um, but she basically looks at alternative data sources and compares them to what the official numbers are telling us. And the number that she was looking at was what are the expectations of workers if they were to lose their job of how long it would take them to find a new job. And those numbers are plummeting. So you're seeing higher actual job cuts, you're seeing high numbers of layoffs being announced, you have consumer worker sentiment being down. And so I don't think that that the jobs picture is as robust as the jolts headline led us to believe last week. And so I just hope that if our Federal Reserve is using this data to make decisions, they are digging deeper into it.

SPEAKER_05 49:04

And of course, Kobe, the BLS. I mean, when's the last time you know that that number didn't get adjusted down? So I mean, more often than not, it seems like things are rosier than they really are. That's a whole nother conversation we should have. That should probably go the way of the dot plot, which is going to be uh being laid to rest here any day now by Kevin Walsh. What are your thoughts on the jobs report, Kobe? Anything stand out to you?

SPEAKER_06 49:27

Yeah, I mean, there, you know, look, you know, the uh the World Cup hiring giveth a headline and the uh the Fed taketh away the rate cut. So um, you know, I think we're you know, we're we're seeing uh wage growth a little bit higher than than uh than what the Fed likes to see. Um, you know, which you know we're we're that's gonna embolden the hawks. Um and I think that uh the the other number in there that is interesting to me is 22,000 jobs lost in the commercial banking and insurance sector. So we're starting to see the financial sector bleed. Um and uh I think we're down 107,000 jobs from May of 2025 in that same financial sector, which is not mortgage, obviously, it covers a wide swath. But um, you know, I'm curious because we had the AI discussion last week. I'm curious to know how much of that is is because of AI and how much of that is just because, you know, we know the commercial sector is hurting. Uh, we know the insurance uh uh world is is struggling to make profit. Um, so I think those are good things to keep an eye on as well, is where we're actually losing the jobs, not necessarily where we're gaining them. There's also a lot of people.

SPEAKER_03 50:29

Yeah, I mean, I think that oh, sorry.

SPEAKER_06 50:31

No, please.

SPEAKER_03 50:32

Well, I think in the job cuts data, um, which by the way were primarily are heavy in the tech sector and the pharma sector. So these high-paying jobs, um, which the the all the job ads were in restaurants and and bars, not high skilled, high-wage jobs. Um, AI automation was the number one reason listed for for those job cuts in those those higher skilled sectors.

SPEAKER_06 50:53

Yeah, I don't I don't necessarily believe that when I see it though. I think I think you know, we we tend to blame AI for job loss anytime we're not running the company right. So it's an easy thing to say, you know, because it sounds like you're sounds like you're being innovative and tech forward.

SPEAKER_05 51:07

Um what just have what just happened to your microphone? You just like doubled in your amplification there. Oh, I don't know. You have an electrician working at the house, or this is a good idea.

SPEAKER_06 51:16

I'm having you have an electrician among the among the workforce there. What's going on? There's it's at least there's at least a couple of people under my desk right now. So I don't I don't know what's happening. Whoa. Oh, geez. Wow. It's a weird day here, man. It's a weird day here.

SPEAKER_05 51:32

You're not moving much. I'm not surprised. Um, there's another statistic in here that stands out to me. New college grads, unemployment for them hit 5.6 percent.

SPEAKER_03 51:45

Yeah, they're having a real taco of it right now.

SPEAKER_05 51:49

What does the future look like for our kids? I know that's not necessarily mortgage related, but it's something to really start to think about.

SPEAKER_06 51:56

Yeah, I mean, we've got a number of onions to layers to peel back there. Chief among those is the uh is the is the financial and university industrial complex, which encourages kids to take classes in majors that have no value past school, but saddles them with $300,000 worth of debt. Uh, and it's encouraging more kids to get useless degrees because it they give them the loans to do it. Um, so this is a massive problem that has to be solved at a much more fundamental level than just creating more jobs, because there's no way to create more jobs for Egyptologists and basket weavers. We have to actually have kids study things in school that matter. And and the reality is that for most kids in the United States, it may not even make sense to go to college anymore. It may make sense to learn a trade or or or or go to a vocational school. Um, but we've we've pushed kids into this massive debt with the promise of a job, and and we're just we've done a horrible job of it. Horrible.

SPEAKER_03 52:48

Yeah. Well, and it's not even the underwater basket weavers that are suffering this, right? It's you you're you're seeing people that are coming out who went to school for things like coding, even for attorneys, because AI is taking the role of what first-year attorneys do, right? And and coding is being done now with with AI. And so, you know, even ones that that probably went into it thinking that they had a a viable and valuable degree are are dealing with this as well.

SPEAKER_06 53:13

Covered a lot of ground today. We did. We got through so much so quickly. We found out who's so many people in my house. So many people in my house. How many people exactly are in your house, Kobe? There's uh right now, there's nobody, thankfully, that I know about.

SPEAKER_02 53:29

Just the people under your desk.

SPEAKER_06 53:31

Yeah, just the people, just the people working under my desk trying to fix the microphone.

SPEAKER_02 53:34

Uh hardest job they've had all day.

SPEAKER_06 53:37

I I will say how lovely of a time it was to spend with Aaron in uh in Maine. Aww. Maine is very jealous, man. Maine is lovely this time of year, and it's even more lovely with the likes of Aaron D.

SPEAKER_05 53:49

And Brian View, our good friend Brian View was there too.

SPEAKER_06 53:52

Our good friend Brian View, I got to play pickleball with Brian, and uh we we both uh managed to emerge unscathed and unhurt, although both of us probably hobbling a little bit later this week. Um but yeah, it was it was uh it was so much fun, so many great people. Um, and uh, you know, we learned a lot. There was there were some really informative closed door sessions that we got to attend that um you know I thought I thought were were were pretty important for the industry and the conversations we're having.

SPEAKER_03 54:18

I agree. I had an absolute blast. The the the Knicks game was so much fun, and you know, obviously it's the closed door meetings are good, but there was a lot of open time for networking, which helped me build a lot of relationships that that I've been wanting to for a while. So it was great. And then next week, looking forward, I'm headed to Ohio for uh Rich Sorbinski and his Ohio MBA event. So that should be a good one, too. Not maybe not the same views, but be good anyway.

SPEAKER_05 54:43

Any talk about no surrender when you were in Maine?

SPEAKER_06 54:45

Anybody come up to you? Oh, yeah. Yeah, we have people coming up actually giving recommendations for what we should do with the show. Um, so that that tells you that tells you we have an engaged audience. Any good one?

SPEAKER_05 54:57

Any ones that stuck with you?

SPEAKER_06 54:58

Anyone there were a couple of good ones, yeah.

SPEAKER_05 55:01

Excellent. I feel like my uh left eye is swollen. I might have some allergies. Do you see any red? What do you think about that? Kobe, you're uh you you keep changing your position every week. Do you know that? Like this week you got the door, the week before you had half the wall, the week before that you had the whole wall. Now you got a now you got a book. Now you got a bookshelf. You're in the pool, or I think that's you. That's me with the pool there.

SPEAKER_06 55:25

It's me with my daughter in the pool. Yeah.

SPEAKER_05 55:27

This is amazing. You you uh never a doll moment with you here as our co-co-host.

SPEAKER_06 55:32

I'm I'm shirtless on the show as well. That's me shirtless. So Aaron, next week.

SPEAKER_07 55:38

Let's go.

SPEAKER_05 55:39

Hey, meatloaf, two out of three ain't bad. Uh, any any final hot takes, fierce debates?

SPEAKER_03 55:46

I think I'm getting it out.

SPEAKER_06 55:48

Yeah, uh, my my last hot take for the week is and I and I had this conversation with uh with Owen Lee this week. We were talking about the fact that um, and John Headland was in the conversation as well. We were talking about the fact that uh the two harbor is now moving to a third vote, and I can see a world in which UWM wins this thing. And and I would not be surprised if that's where it landed, um, just because Matt Ishbia has done a really good job of of shaking the confidence of the shareholders in in management and what they're actually offering in terms of this transaction. So I would not be surprised if uh, and I don't know exactly when that date is. I think it's I think it's actually on the day of our next show. So it is possible we come on the air next week with UWM having one two harbors. We'll see. That that could be, I don't know.

SPEAKER_03 56:34

Yeah, yeah. I think it got moved to the 23rd. I'm realizing Kobe's quite the name dropper.

SPEAKER_05 56:38

Oh, yeah. No, he loves to drop names. This is uh he's just now, and that's why he's smiling so wide. You see that? He's gonna his his literally gonna break his jaw. He's he's laughing so hard right now. He loves it. You just completely nailed the guy. Um this is new, this is like newfound stardom for Kobe. Yeah, I mean, no surrender has done wonders for this guy. It's it's open. Everybody knows that we're close. Now my my understanding is even the great legend himself, Brian Hale, even befriended Kobe um in Maine. Is this true? I heard a rumor.

SPEAKER_06 57:08

It is it is true. I had a really nice conversation. He uh he he uh invited me on his show, which was really kind of him. Um we'll uh we'll see. Talk talks are underway.

SPEAKER_05 57:18

Well, you haven't made it until you get on Brian Hale's show. And I've been on, by the way, so I've made it.

SPEAKER_03 57:22

A girl with a dream.

SPEAKER_05 57:24

Uh I just want to say this is our fifth, is it fifth show? Fifth, fourth, fifth. I think so. Yeah. You think so? What? I gave you two numbers. I I think it's our fifth.

SPEAKER_02 57:35

Six, seven.

SPEAKER_05 57:38

Having a great time. We are here to stay. I'm really just Aaron, you are you are the straw that stirs the drink. You are the secret ingredient, and uh it's been just so great to get to know you. So looking forward to more of these shows.

SPEAKER_03 57:50

Thank you, same. I love you guys. You guys are you guys are freaking awesome.

SPEAKER_05 57:53

Yeah, we're the brothers you uh what'd you say? We're the brothers you didn't know you needed.

SPEAKER_03 57:56

Correct.

SPEAKER_07 57:57

Yes, exactly.

SPEAKER_05 57:58

Our thanks to Nai Young in the background. Have a great rest of your week, folks. We'll see you again next Thursday on No Surrender. Till then.

SPEAKER_04 58:08

No surrender on the toe. We go to the toe. What fails? What fails? Who gets the home? Hot no hot things,