Back to Basics - Wisconsin Chiropractic Association's Podcast
The Wisconsin Chiropractic Association presents the "Back to Basics" Podcast
“Back to Basics” brings you conversations with leaders in the chiropractic profession hosted by WCA President Dr. Chris Resch.
Back to Basics - Wisconsin Chiropractic Association's Podcast
Dr. Jason Mackey: Multi-disciplinary professions that complement chiropractic care.
Use Left/Right to seek, Home/End to jump to start or end. Hold shift to jump forward or backward.
During my conversation today, Jason has a really cool story about his chiropractic
inspiration. His enjoyment about helping acute patients. What multi-disciplinary
professions LSM has added to their clinics that are complimentary to chiropractic.
His favorite clinical and business books and some great advice for the new
chiropractor regarding improving your adjusting technique.
Hello, and welcome to the Wisconsin Chiropractic Association podcast. Back to basics, the show where knowledge comes to life. I'm your host, Dr. Chris Resch, president of the Wisconsin Chiropractic Association, and I'm thrilled to have you join us for another enlightening episode. In each episode, we will be bringing some of the brightest minds, visionaries, and experts from various fields of healthcare, business, politics, and of course, chiropractic. We'll engage in a thought-provoking conversation with today's guest to provide basic information to provide you, our listeners, with an opportunity to gain valuable knowledge and wisdom that can positively impact your life. My guest today is Dr. Jason Mackey from Lookie Store Mackey Chiropractic in Madison, Wisconsin. Dr. Mackey is a 2005 graduate of Walmart College of Chiropractic and sees a variety of patients with muscoskeletal conditions. He does specialize in sports injuries on AI. He is a managing partner at LSM, in which they have 19 clinic locations in and around the Madison area. During my conversation today, Jason has a really cool story about his chiropractic inspiration, his enjoyment of helping acute patients, what multidisciplinary professions LSM has added to their clinics that is complementary to chiropractic, his favorite clinical and business books, and some great advice for the new chiropractor regarding the secret to improving your adjusting technique. I hope you enjoy my conversation with Dr. Jason Mackey. Hello, Dr. Jason Mackey. How are you doing today? Doing fantastic yourself. I'm doing well. So, like others, I'm just gonna go straight Jason if you're okay with that. That'd be fine. All right. So, Jason, not to be confused with Jeff. So, Jason, you're a second generation chiropractor. Your dad is Jeff Mackey with Madison and surrounding area Lutke Storm Mackey Chiropractic. So, growing up in a chiropractic household, I'm just gonna get right to it. What inspired you to become a chiropractor?
SPEAKER_00Yeah, I was I was very fortunate with my upbringing, having some great mentors to watch as I grew up, you know, my father being right up the top of those. I knew from a pretty young age that I wanted to be a chiropractor, uh, somewhere around the age of about 13 is when I really made the decision that this was going to be my career path. My mom, my sister, myself, we were at our clinic. We were meeting my dad for lunch one day. And just before dad was done for lunch, the patient walked in in just extreme pain, you know, bent over forward. We've all seen these before, crying because the pain was so intense. And the patient is walking down the hallway, kind of holding themselves up on the hall, goes into the room with my dad, is in there for 10 to 15 minutes, doors open back up. The patient is standing upright and is just crying and smiling and happy because they have such profound relief from the adjustment. And I remember thinking at that moment, wow, how how incredible is that that you can take somebody on their worst day and make them feel better like that. I also remember being one of the first times that I thought my dad was truly cool. So um, but uh, you know, it's it's been something that's stuck with me for the rest of my career thus far. You know, I I talk to a lot of my younger doctors or my colleagues that I I really love to focus on acute care as a result of that. I love that when a patient comes into me and they are having their worst day, and you can send them out the door and they are going, my gosh, I can't believe how much better I feel. This is so incredible. I I find that profoundly rewarding. And I know that there's doctors out there that love wellness care and maintenance care, and I think that's incredible as well. But that's what really gets me excited in the day is getting that patient coming in, they're doing so bad. You see them a day later, and they're like, I can't believe how much better my my life has gotten. So that's that's been what got me excited for this career.
SPEAKER_01I can see that. So back to that day when you realized that your dad was cool and you saw that outstanding outcome. How old were you then?
SPEAKER_00I was about 13. It was somewhere right around that age.
SPEAKER_01And now years later, you've probably realized that you know, looking back, and now that you're in the business and part of the key figures that runs the business, and your dad's retired, you're probably realizing your dad was pretty cool in a lot of other ways, too.
SPEAKER_00Oh, absolutely. You know, and it's it was one of those things I didn't even tell them for years that I wanted to be a chiropractor after that. You know, that really only came up when I was getting ready to leave for college, and they're asking what I was gonna do. I was like, Well, I'm gonna be a chiropractor, of course. Don't you guys remember this day? You know, it was it was an impression that was just cemented in my brain, and you know, no, they they it was another day for my dad with that, but for me, it was something that just triggered so strongly.
SPEAKER_01Okay, so you saw that at 13, and then eventually college came. When did you really actually know that hey, I'm gonna pursue chiropractic, I'm gonna take the college classes that gets me to chiropractic college? When did that happen?
SPEAKER_00I started my freshman year of undergrad in a pre-med program. So I started day one doing that. My junior, senior year, I transferred to another college following baseball career. Um, but when I was down there, I actually got a job with a chiropractor in Kenosha who was a preceptor for LSM before he opened his own clinic. And so I worked for for him for two years as a CT CRT, getting more experience in that. And the more I was involved in it, the more I realized how much I really wanted to do this.
SPEAKER_01Awesome. Awesome. Well, let's go to chiropractor college. Tell me a little bit about that. Yep, went to Palmer.
SPEAKER_00I followed again right along with my my father's footsteps with that. I never really considered another school at that point just because honestly, I didn't know a lot about the other schools. I'd I'd been to Palmer many times with him. I'd seen it, I thought it was pretty cool. And so I went down there and never really looked back. It it was a journey, you know. It's as everybody that's gone through this knows, chiropractic school is not easy. You know, it takes a lot of hard work, a lot of dedication. It took me a little bit to kind of really learn how to study when you're talking about upper 20s and lower 30s as far as credit hours each trimester. And so it took a little bit to get used to that. And once you get it down, it's no different than a regular job.
SPEAKER_01And then, so you're at Palmer. I'm sure your father gave you some words of advice on you know when you got there, what to look for, probably some instructors that were still there that you definitely some instructors, some places to go to eat, um, best ways to study.
SPEAKER_00Gave me he actually had kept meticulous notes of all of his classes, and so he gave me all of his old uh notes for all the classes. He would go back home every day and rewrite his notes from his classes so that he would learn it better. And so he gave me just mountains of old three-ring binders with loosely paper in it, and that was really helpful too, because it was like having extra textbooks. Okay, so what year are we talking? Started in 03. I graduated 05.
SPEAKER_01Okay, gotcha. So tell me, online, was there online resources then or was it still pen and paper?
SPEAKER_00It was mostly pen and paper. Yeah, there were there were no digital books, um, any of that stuff. You still went over across and they had the student bookstore as well, where you could buy all the old student notes and all of that stuff.
SPEAKER_01What about like clubs? Did you get involved in like the sports medicine club or any technique clubs? Surprisingly, no.
SPEAKER_00That was one thing that I do regret when I was there that I didn't do more of. Um, you know, originally, you know, I played college baseball for four years. I thought I would play baseball for Palmer. And by the time I got there, I was just kind of burned out of playing, so I didn't pursue that at all. I played a lot of sports when I was there. I, you know, was out playing volleyball, you know, two, three times a week with a lot of the people at the gym there. By the way, the gym does not look anything or did not look anything like what it does now. It was a dark dank hole. So what they have now is pretty spectacular. But uh, you know, as far as clubs go, again, I was a little unique and I knew exactly the pathway I was going for. I was pretty laser focused on I was gonna get through chiropractic school, I was going up to LSM to practice, I knew that this was the career path I was going on, and I was gonna make that happen. So I didn't get involved in a lot of the clubs, and I really wish I would have because there's a lot that can be learned from that, even if it's techniques you don't use later in your career. So, but I knew I was gonna be Gonsted, and I was working with Harvey Storm at the time on Gonstead technique, you know, and so I didn't go to the Gonstead Club because I had one of the actual experts that worked with Clarence Gonstedt helping me on this.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, there you go. So yeah, we're gonna have a lot of students listening to this. Yeah, and one of my questions, I'll just ask it, even though you're kind of answering it already, which is cool, is what would your today's self teach your student self? And I guess that was the technique club. And so it sounds like you got into Gonstead, and then I was gonna ask you, is it we were you Mount Horeb Gonstead or were you Troxel Gonstead?
SPEAKER_00Uh, I was LSM Gonstead, which is also another own little offshoot of that. So you know, I've I've heard it said many, many times. There there's only one person that ever truly practiced Gonstead, and that was the old man. Everybody else from there has to modify it to somewhat to fit their own style. So at this point, I practice Jason Mackey technique. It's rooted in Palmer Package, Gonstead. Um, you know, I've been shaped by many different practitioners over my career. I've picked up techniques from doctors that have been in practice for 40 years. I've got younger practitioners that I'm learning new techniques from. Um, and so it's been a little combination of all of that.
SPEAKER_01So then moving forward, you graduate in 2005. I know you treat a ton of athletes, so you've got a lot of experience. Talk to me about your training. And I know your dad set the tone and the legacy there as well, working with a number of athletes and teaches courses. I've taken his course on sports chiropractic. I'm thinking that's that's the path you went down and maybe some other areas.
SPEAKER_00You know, having been a collegiate athlete, you know, understanding not only the the stresses and strains of the body that go through with the trainings, the, you know, the getting up at 4:30 in the morning and doing lifts, you know, the bus rides to Kentucky in cramped buses, you know, it's a very unique thing. So I had the background of that already. I love working with athletes because there is nobody that comes into a clinic that wants to get better than an athlete who's lost their starting position. They are just pushing to get better. You almost have to restrain them in a lot of cases. And so it's a lot of fun and very gratifying to work with the speedy athletes there. As far as training goes, I I did the CCSP program. I got my CCSP with that. But honestly, there's no substitute for real life work. And when I first started, I started working with high school athletes and middle school athletes. I started working with the local Whitewater College a little bit. Um, you know, those were the things where I really cut my teeth and started learning the differences between the sports, the differences of the types of injuries that each athlete gets. They're not all the same. And so you start really kind of getting that just based on actually doing it. Um, and so that's where really the training comes from is just repetitive, you know, repetitive training in that.
SPEAKER_01So by doing that, obviously you get thrown right into the fire of sideline athletic training, so to speak, type work, and then clinical athletic injuries. So it's kind of a forced way of I've got to get my examination, my triage skills up to par and be as good as I can when it comes to the injured athlete. But I would imagine that probably facilitated collaboration with the medical community.
SPEAKER_00Absolutely. Yeah, absolutely at those levels. You you're working with orthopedists, you're working with sports medicine practitioners, with physical therapists, uh, the athletic trainers themselves who are just incredibly gifted. Um, and so without question, that helps to develop a wonderful referral network. And you start to see that then where that doctor that, you know, oh yeah, this is something that Dr. Mackey can work with. I'm gonna send over to this now. And so you see a lot of that collaboration that goes along with that.
SPEAKER_01Okay. And then taking a step back, so you come back to Madison in 2005, Lucastor Mackey has a number of locations and continues to grow. But back then, do you remember how many different locations you had? And did you start in the main clinic with your dad?
SPEAKER_00No, um, I started off on my own to begin with in our Whitewater clinic. So we had a new location that opened up about six months before I graduated. And they took that clinic with the idea that that was going to be where I was gonna go right out of school. So there's a couple of doctors that kind of got that started, got it going just to kind of get it up and running. And then I jumped in with both feet and jumped into that community wholeheartedly. Um, an opportunity came around about 10 years later. Uh, one of my great mentors, Galen Baker, was going to be retiring. He practiced with my father at the East Madison Clinic for decades. And so I, you know, the opportunity came for me to move from the Whitewater Clinic up to the East Madison clinic, and I jumped into that. But I think at the time to answer that first part of your question, I think we had about 10 to 12 clinics about half our size as we are now.
SPEAKER_01So fast forward a little bit now. And you know, when you first start in practice, you're up to your eyeballs in clinical growth and learning. And as your career moves on, Jason, I'm sure you started to have scenarios where you have to start putting on more of the business hat, being one of the managing partners at LSM. So, where did you learn the business side of chiropractic or healthcare or just flat out how to run a business?
SPEAKER_00Yeah. Um, again, I I'm very blessed in. I had some incredible mentors that led the way for that, you know, with uh, you know, starting with Ken Lukey, you know, I got to know him growing up and see what he did as um I was growing up. He was retired by the time I started. But Harvey Storm was still here. He was just brilliant when it came to business. My father was incredible when it came to negotiating. And then all the rest of the partners that have come since then, Jeff Line, Nathan Consodine, Gene Yellensharing, and then the rest of my current partners right now with you know, Brett Haith, Todd Tesh, Jason Baldwig, and Jeff Horkin, I've had some really great people to watch and learn from over the years. Uh, was very fortunate I got to start just going and sitting in on contract negotiations for insurance companies. Um, I didn't get to talk, I got to just sit there and listen, but learn how you know how that works, what the contracts are actually saying, and understand what that means from a business standpoint. And so that's really where I got it all from. It was it was a school of hard knocks, it's learning from those that learned the hard way to be successful.
SPEAKER_01So, speaking of allowed to be in the meetings, but you were told to listen before you spoke, because it's kind of like the training wheels thing. So I'm a first-generation chiropractor, and I have a daughter who's a chiropractor, and another daughter who's a physical therapist, and uh a son in business who's also part of our practice. Your dad actually gave me some great advice on nepotism and the concept of when you bring someone in the business that's related to you, they don't just get everything handed to them. No. Did you find yourself having to go through the school of hard knocks and prove yourself?
SPEAKER_00Yeah. Um, there you always fight against that that image. I was told very clearly by Harvey Storm, by Jeff Lyne when I came back and I did have to interview with the company just like everybody else. I went through the same steps as everyone else. I precepted uh with Dr. Tesh. And I was told very, very clearly very early on, I was gonna have to work twice as hard as everybody else to earn my spot. Otherwise, people were gonna think it was just handed to me. And I hope I've lived up to that.
SPEAKER_01Well, according to your father, you have. So I've talked to you privately on that. So I get to chat with him occasionally at different conventions, which is a great place for collaboration with those that absolutely learn from our mentors that leave footprints, right? So the business, you know, Dr. Jason Mackey today. If you had to say giving advice on building a positive work culture, can you speak to that?
SPEAKER_00Yeah, boy, that's that's a tricky one today. Um, you know, things are changing. Uh, people have different desires than they had when I started. When I started practice, the concept of work-life balance meant you worked to have a life. People have different desires and different wants nowadays. I can still tell you that hard work is still the best way to go forward in any successful enterprise. I don't care if it's business, I don't care if it's your personal life. You have to work hard at it, you have to put the effort in. But there are things that people want differently. They're, you know, they're not coming out of school looking for 60 hours a week in in practice any longer. Our staff members are looking for different things as well. Um, so we've had to adapt to some of that as we've gone forward. And sometimes that's a little tough even for us, you know, older older school mentality people that we have to adapt to that new nature and new reality as well. Right.
SPEAKER_01So obviously, you had great mentors that you learned from. And today, where do you find your inspiration? Do you have a favorite podcast, book, uh, consulting company that you work with?
SPEAKER_00I I love this concept for this question here. Um, and it's it's very fortuitous because it came up just last weekend. My father was actually up teaching uh class four LSM, and this entire topic got brought up a little bit. And so, to preface a little of this part, um, I'm gonna steal something that he was talking about in in his class here. Currently in this country, right now, 70% of the population will never read another book after they graduate high school. And I think that's just a wild concept. Um yeah, it really truly is. Um, if you ask any successful business person out there, the one constant that comes across with every single leader of every single industry, doesn't matter what it is, is they read. That's that's part of it. Um, and so he he had a really fun stat. If you read five books on one topic, you will be one of the smartest experts in your entire county. If you read 10 books on one topic, you will be in the 1% of experts in your entire state on that topic. And if you read 20 books on that same topic, you will be a national expert in that that field. That's how little it really takes to be a national expert. Um, now that's taking time to read the books and all of that, but it is important. And so he was going through and through some different categories of books that every single chiropractor that is looking to be successful should have somewhere on their bookshelf. And I went through those categories and actually picked out a few books that are my favorite ones from each of those individual categories. So the very first category every chiropractor should have that they're looking at at some point is some sort of technical manual manual, something about the profession that we are doing. And so the first one that I'm gonna jump out right off the bat on is I'm gonna throw a shout out to one of our other WCA members here. And I'm gonna say that the clinical application of outcome assessments by Steve Yeomans. If you don't have this book in your bookshelf, you're missing out. This is an incredible technical manual for how to practice in this profession, and it will save your Easter when it comes to work comp and PIs. So that was the first technical book that I'm gonna just even leave it just at that for technical. Go get that book. It is well worth it. From the standpoint of business, I picked two of my favorite business books that are out there. Number one is Never Eat Alone by Keith Farazzi. Really the title sums it up pretty well, but it's the secrets to success, the little things that you do when you have the downtime. If you have an hour lunch, your hour lunch should not be spent sitting at your desk watching YouTube videos and TikTok videos. Go out and meet with people, meet with other doctors, take them to lunch. You may bang your head against the wall a dozen times before you get one to go with you, but it'll be worth it when you finally do. Meet with attorneys, meet with HR directors from industries. They love meeting with us. You know, go through and call them up and say, hey, I'm a new chiropractor in the area. I've seen a few patients from your company. Could I come over sometime, just sit down and talk with you, and maybe even do a plant tour so I have a better understanding of what your employees are doing so I can better get them back to work for you. They will love you for that. And it's a great way to network. The other book from this standpoint from business is another kind of funny one. It's called Who Move My Cheese? So I don't know if you've ever seen that one or read that one, Chris, but it's a great book on just dealing with change in your work and in your life, understanding that no matter what plans you put forward, they are never going to work out the way you think. And you've got to be flexible enough to roll with it when it happens. Um, and I think it's a fantastic read. Both of these are relatively quick reads, they're inexpensive. I highly recommend them. From more of the standpoint of just I guess the the term for this would be more self help or um motivational. I've got two of my favorite authors that I I pulled up. Number one, Is uh books by Larry Wingett. I don't know if anybody's ever read these books before, but I think these are incredibly great motivational books. His first book that I ever read that I recommend to every young doctor in our group, it's the title of the book is It's Called Work for a Reason. And he doesn't mince any words. He's gonna call you out very quickly that this is why you're not making it. This is what's causing you to not succeed. You need to shore it up and do better. One of my favorite quotes from Larry Wingett comes off and just says, do what you said you would do when you said you would do it, the way you said you would do it. And I think that just perfectly sums it up. If you tell a patient, I'm gonna get back to you about this, you better do it. Don't forget about it, don't put it off, don't think it's not important. Do it, get it done because they pay attention to the fact that you didn't follow through on that. My other one of my favorite motivational uh books is uh uh author uh by the name of Dennis Kimbrough. He wrote the book, he actually wrote several books, but the one that I really like is What Makes the Great Great. I highly recommend this book. Another just quick little quote from this, and this is one that just always stuck with me. All high achievers make choices, not excuses. And I think that just sums it up pretty much right there. Lastly, every single person should have a fun book of some sort, something they enjoy reading that's not technical, that's not gonna weigh them down, something that gives you an escape from whatever it is you're doing. So I don't care what the subject is, if it's a biography, if it's a novel, if it's nonfiction, if it's a trashy dime store novel, it's a comic book. It doesn't matter. Have something to read. But those are the things that should be on your nightstand every single night.
SPEAKER_01Are you an audiobook person? Do you read books or are you a podcast guy?
SPEAKER_00I love the tactile sensational books. So I if it's a book, I'm gonna read it. Every once in a while, I'll get some audiobooks and I'll put them on in my car when I'm driving and commuting and things like that, especially if I've got a longer drive I'm doing. But most of the time I want that book. One of my favorite things to do is my my wife and I love to travel. One of our trips every year is always uh an adventure of some sort, but the other one is always gonna be a relaxing vacation where we sit down and just go down to a beach for three to five days, and I'll take three to five books with me, and I'm usually finishing a full book a day. Um, that's my absolute favorite thing to do is just sit and just immerse myself into that. It's this, to be honest, this is my very first podcast. Welcome to the club. My younger doctors are laughing that I was doing a podcast.
SPEAKER_01So I don't mean to start anything, but you know, you might find yourself uh you know listening to two, three, four podcasts a day. Uh that's what I've kind of morphed myself into. Hello, everyone. I want to tell you about the 2024 Wisconsin Chiropractic Association Spring Convention. It's going to be April 11th through the 14th at the Astoff Resort in Elkhart Lake. Whether you're a seasoned professional or just starting out and practice, as you know, the Spring Convention is a great place to be. We have all sorts of great sessions led by industry experts, and the vending area will provide an opportunity for you to explore a variety of products and services from leading companies. The WCA Convention always provides a great in-person experience to connect with colleagues from across the state. So again, April 11th through the 14th, WCA Spring Convention, Astop Resort in Elkhart Lake, you can go to the Wisconsin Chiropractic Association website to register. We hope to see you there. When it comes to reading books, I have found that if it's a business book or if it's a like self-help book that I want to resource back to, there's nothing better than the paper tactile book.
SPEAKER_00Print pages, make sure you you can find those things when you want to see them again. Absolutely. Right, right.
SPEAKER_01Because I find myself, I am a podcast guy too. I do truly listen to over three a day. And but I find myself pulling over on my vehicle and saying, Oh, I gotta, I gotta jot that down or put it in a file on my phone. I don't text and drive, so I will say I will say that. I find myself, I find myself pulling over on my way to the office this morning. I actually pulled over and and put something down that I added to my library of what I call my wheel of life file. So, and then you also mentioned Dr. Steve Yeomans. I do want to throw this out to our listeners that he's a previous guest of this podcast. So if you want to circle back and listen to a little bit more about Steve Yeomans, I would highly recommend it.
SPEAKER_00As would I. Steve is one of the absolute true gentlemen of this profession and has been working diligently his entire career to just move us in the right direction.
SPEAKER_01Right. And then you mentioned just the uh, you know, overall importance of books. Uh, we had Sherry McAllister at our last uh convention. You know, she's the director of the Foundation for Chiropractic Progress, and she had an interesting phrase that she said that you will be heavily influenced by the books that you read and the people that you meet. It's very true. Very good advice. So keeping on the business theme here, so just a straight up question what does business success look like?
SPEAKER_00That is a great question, and I think it looks different for everybody. Some, you know, everybody's looking for something different in their life. Some people want a practice that is a little bit more of a niche that focuses on a specific type of patient rather than a general practice. And if they're happy and they feel successful, then they're successful. I think success is to some extent subjective, that it's up to that individual. Now, from my personal standpoint, we have our definitions of success for our younger doctors, for ourselves. We know the metrics that we put in place for what we're expecting to do and what we were looking for in that arena. I push myself every day to be a better doctor, to be a better adjuster than I was the day before. You know, and just real small segue onto that, real quick. Folks, don't forget the adjustment. You know, I know there's a lot of wonderful techniques out there that are soft tissue, that are ancillary. What makes us special is the adjustment. Everything else, almost everybody else can do. Nobody can touch us when it comes to that. And so become good at that. And you will succeed with anything that you do. You know, Dr. Lukey was always very, very fond of telling everybody that if you take great care of patients, success can't help but follow.
SPEAKER_01Gotcha. Awesome advice. I think the adjustment, I couldn't agree with you more, Jason, is our number one tool in our toolbox. Along those lines, let's talk about other tools.
SPEAKER_00What do you got? Well, really exciting for us right now is we've actually started to delve into a multidisciplinary model over the last year to two years. Um, started with incorporation of a naturopathic doctor, uh, Dr. Ashley Wolak. She has been just an absolute delight to have in our practice, and patients have been responding beautifully to her care. We have now expanded out into physical therapy. Uh, we have added acupuncture and massage therapy on a full-time basis now. So we have two nurse practitioners on staff doing functional medicine. And so we've really started to kind of grow that model that it's not just about the chiropractic, it's a team approach, and the outcomes we're getting are significantly higher at this point. So I've I've got to say this has been exciting, exciting last year or two for us. What about specifics?
SPEAKER_01Dry needling, laser, certain modalities. What do you gravitate to?
SPEAKER_00Yeah, so we have um, as I said, we've got some acupuncture uh uh going on right now in our clinic, but we've also got four practitioners right now that are doing dry needling. We have three high-intensity um cutting-edge brand uh lasers in our clinics, and then a lot of you know fairly standardized other modalities that we use intersegmental traction, um, interferential, things of that nature. As far as the dry needling goes, we've gotten wonderful results of that. Patients really enjoy it. It's it's really helped with a lot of specific conditions. Laser therapy. Boy, when that first laser showed up at our clinic, um, it showed up in a day I was practicing at East, and I I remember just being so upset that the laser was coming into our clinic because I wanted nothing to do with it. The lasers prior to that were the you know, the low intensity class threes, they they really didn't generate enough energy to really get great results. You'd see some results, but it wasn't anything that I thought was just earth-shattering. And when these lasers came in and the the difference in the intensity they're able to deliver, the outcomes were almost immediate. Our first patient was an elderly woman with plantar fasciitis. And I think it was after about the fourth or fifth visit. If she could have gotten on our roof and started screaming about how great she felt, she would have done it. It was just night and day difference, how much benefit that had.
SPEAKER_01Gotcha. The adjustment's still number one, though, right? Still number one. Absolutely. It always will be. Speaking of the adjustment, let's talk techniques a little bit. I know you mentioned Gonsted, and you can expand on that if you'd like, but other techniques?
SPEAKER_00Yeah, so we're we're all rooted in Polymer Package, so diversified. You know, we will use an activator if patients you know request it or want that, but we really do go back to the basics of the Gonsted. A lot of our younger doctors, uh, you know, they are very gifted at a lot of the soft tissue techniques, the grass and the ART, the pin and stretch. You know, they do a lot of those different techniques. You know, for me, the old dog, none of that stuff was really being taught when I was in school. Um, and so you know, I don't use a lot of that. I just refer a lot of patients that need it to them, and then they'll do that for us, or I refer to the physical therapist. But, you know, those are really the cores of what we use.
SPEAKER_01Okay, so new chiropractor coming out of school. What are your words of wisdom?
SPEAKER_00Practice, get faster. You know, every student that comes out of school, they're still they're they're still not there with the adjusting yet. Um, and that's not to be derogatory towards them at all. They just don't have the experience yet. They've seen 250, 300 people at max at that point while they're still in school. And those last that seventh, eighth, ninth try, my advice to every single one of you precept somewhere. I love the schools. The schools do a great job of teaching, but you're just not going to get the experience you're gonna get in an actual clinic when you precept with somebody. I love having students come and learn from us and doing a preceptor ship with them. Um, and so that would be some of my best advice. But speed is what it really comes down to. Too often out of school, we really think that it's about strength, you know, myself included. Um, when I started, it was all about depth of thrust, not speed of thrust. It's all about speed. And once you develop that, the outcomes just get so much better. It's so much more comfortable for your patients, and they'll really, really notice the difference.
SPEAKER_01Gotcha. Let's talk a little bit about LSM. So, how many locations do you have now? Where's your geographical footprint? And the young chiropractors that are listening to this, if they wanted to get a little bit more exposure to LSM and what LSM has to offer. Can you speak to that for us?
SPEAKER_00Sure. Uh, we currently have 19 clinic locations. Greater Madison, Dane County area is kind of our hub, but we spread from that. So we go west to Sauk, the furthest south is New Blairis, furthest east is our um Watertown clinics, and furthest north right now is our Fondelac Clinic and everything kind of in between. We also currently have two locations of forward natural medicine. So that is our physical therapy, naturopathic, acupuncture, and massage clinics. And so we're expanding that as well. So that expands within our footprint.
SPEAKER_01So that's your geographical footprint. So if the young chiropractor coming up on looking at a preceptor situation, regardless of school, does not matter, correct? Palmer, Northwestern, National.
SPEAKER_00Yep. We've we've had preceptors now from I believe five different colleges. I am currently post-grad faculty for four still at this point, but Palmer, National, Northwestern are obviously the most common. But just two years ago, we had a preceptor from Western states. Uh, first time I ever got to work with that school. So um, that was actually very exciting.
SPEAKER_01And if you hire a chiropractor, do they always go in with a clinic that has an established doctor or are they ever on their own like you were in Whitewater?
SPEAKER_00It it very much depends on the situation. Sometimes they'll be in a clinic with other doctors. If the right opportunity comes up and we think they're a great fit for solo practice, we'll put them into that as well and give them all the resources they need for that. So it really comes down to the individual and what's going to work best for them. And sometimes that comes down to that particular individual as well, where they're looking to be. You know, if we're opening a clinic further north and they really want to live further south, you know, we have to kind of take a little of that into consideration to a certain extent.
SPEAKER_01Gotcha. Let's talk a little bit about the future of chiropractic. Do you see certain trends? Like I'll give you an example. Some chiropractors are going to work with some of the larger medical establishments. Some are still looking to open up their own practice, some are looking to join established practices. Do you see a trend or do you have a recommendation?
SPEAKER_00I do see trends. I see number one, I see the trend of greater acceptance amongst chiropractors with their medical brothers and sisters. More and more doctors are much more likely to refer to a chiropractor for back pain, for neck pain. You know, they still don't know everything about what we do, but it's a heck of a lot better than it was 20 years ago when I started, when you couldn't get some of these doctors even take your call. There's still a little bit of that out there, but it's definitely better than what it was. And so I see that acceptance coming around. As far as other trends in the, you know, I see the growth into multidisciplinary being something that is definitely a trend that's going forward, no matter what particular disciplines you add to that, but just more than chiropractic alone as a standalone. You're seeing more people wanting to collaborate their care. Um, and that may mean that you are bringing on other providers into your practice. That may just mean that you build a great network of people that you work with, that you have a wonderful massage therapist down the street that refers to you and you refer back, but you're not in the same business. But you're seeing more collaboration than we used to as well. The idea that we have to be everything to everyone, I think is a great trend to see is kind of getting lost a little bit. We don't need to be everything to everyone. We need to be great chiropractors to our patients. And that's what I think is a really exciting trend to see.
SPEAKER_01On the lines of trends, when it comes to reimbursement and the business model, do you see continuing to work with third-party payers as a trend or more of a what would some people call a cash practice, self-pay? Or would you recommend a hybrid?
SPEAKER_00I again, I think that one comes down a lot to the individual doctor on what they're looking for in practice and what success looks like to them. There are a lot less headaches if you are doing a straight cash practice, but there's a lot more grind trying to make sure that you have enough patients coming in the door to make that successful and viable. You know, the nice part about insurance contracts is patients do need to come see you. Um, you're in their networks, you're the one that the insurance company is saying, go to see these individuals. I don't see that going away anytime soon. In fact, I see these groups continuing to consolidate and get larger and larger. So the insurance companies that are local to the area, they're going to be getting gobbled up by the big, bigger groups and so on and so forth until there's only so many big ones left. And so I do see that as going forward as well, that there's going to be larger and larger groups. And I think the response to some of that is going to be larger and larger practice groups as well that can still then maintain the ability to discuss and negotiate with them.
SPEAKER_01Gotcha. As you're going through your career, you've got a lot of gas left in the tank. Absolutely. So, but you came into this as you saw your dad, who had a lot of gas in the tank when you came on board, and then he has since retired. Can you talk a little bit about succession planning? What did your dad do? Or obviously, you're you've got partners that have retired. Is there is there a path that you would follow or recommend for succession planning?
SPEAKER_00Yeah, I mean, the the model that we've set up is that every associate has the potential that they may be a partner at some point in their career. Not everyone gets to be because just isn't that ability. And not everybody wants to be, but that's a possibility with you know, within our system, the way we do this is we're looking to, at some point, when I retire, I want to hand over this to the next generation and give them their opportunity. My job, you know, within my business right now, as Dr. Constantine loves to tell people, is we are the stewards of this. We are taking what we were given and we are trying to make it better for the next generation so that they can make it better for the next generation after. Um, and that's what we're really trying to push for is that that succession continues to go that direction.
SPEAKER_01So, what's left for Dr. Jason Mackey? What's in your legacy?
SPEAKER_00A legacy, that's uh an interesting one. You know, from a personal standpoint within my company, I I hope this continues to grow, to be successful. I want all my young doctors to be to feel safe in the fact that this is always going to be the profession that they should have chosen and they chose correctly. So, I mean, from a legacy standpoint, I want to grow what I was given into that next level. From a standpoint of chiropractic, legacy-wise, I would love to see this profession continue to grow into its acceptance. That doesn't mean we get eaten up by the medical profession and become another branch of them. But if I could have one thing before the end of my career, it would be that we were recognized as the experts on spine. That we were the ones that we were sent to with that. Yes, we do enormous things outside of spine, and we know that we were very good at it. But if I could have that one thing, is that they every time that low back or that neck comes in, they go, This is a chiropractic case, send over there. That would be the legacy I would love to see before I'm done with all of this. Fantastic.
SPEAKER_01Okay, so Jason, staying with the business theme, what would be your recommendation for the new doctor coming out and how to plan or focus on their business?
SPEAKER_00Yeah. That is uh that is a really, really great question. Number one, the schools do an incredible job of teaching us to be great doctors. We graduate, we do our national boards, we can diagnose, we can treat, we can do everything that we need to do. Where things fall apart a little bit is that business side of this. We didn't go and get an MBA while we were getting our chiropractic degree. Um, yes, they do teach us a little of this, but every state is different. Everything, you know, there's there's a lot of ins and outs with this. And so from that standpoint, this is something that I find really, really important. Number one, absolutely do not Google a business question. With everybody that's listening to this, I'm gonna highly, highly recommend that you become a member of the Wisconsin Chiropractic Association for the sole purpose, if nothing else, of the help desk there. If you are a new doctor and you have questions, you need forms, you don't know how an insurance contract reads, Tammy and the rest of the help desk are there to get you those answers and they will get you the correct answers, not what somebody wrote on Google or a Wikipedia page. You don't want to use that for your business. Too many times those aren't correct, and then you get yourself into trouble that you can't get back out of. So it doesn't matter if you have a question a day, call Tammy. She will be happy to answer those questions for you. But that is so important. And I'll take that a step further. And Chris, I'll even throw some some words in your mouth with this. I guarantee you that there's not a single member of the board of the WCA that would be upset if you gave us a call and said, Hey, I'm just starting out here. I've got some questions. Would it be okay if I pick your brain? Please reach out. We're here to help, actually. We would love to help you to understand things better. Reach out with those questions. Go to the people that have those answers already and get those answers. But please don't Google it. I know I've said that a couple of times, but that is really critically important because I've seen when that happens and what those results are. And it's not good.
SPEAKER_01Fantastic. What about collaboration with other chiropractors just from a business standpoint? And what I like to say is go to convention. Get to know other chiropractors. You know, a lot of chiropractors are, you know, they're in their office, you know, by themselves. And of course, they've got a staff and they've got you know great people to work with, but really going to convention, especially the in-person experience, I just find that invaluable.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, you know, absolutely. The can the conventions are absolutely critical. You know, I grew up at a time going to conventions. I've watched them over the years. I've watched the doctors get together and talk in the classroom at the at the restaurant afterwards, having dinners together, and just rekindling friendships with each other. Too often we almost see ourselves as adversarial with each other when instead we we should all be working to better this profession together because as everybody succeeds, everybody else around us succeeds. Um, and that's really the beauty of this profession.
SPEAKER_01That's funny because uh Adam Cosadine, who's one of the younger chiropractors in the state, second generation chiropractor who I know you know, he was speaking at Last convention saying I used to love coming to these things as a kid because I'd come to the water park and now I come for the good time meeting with the chiropractors, you know, on break and maybe at the bar afterwards.
SPEAKER_00Well, yeah, he was he was definitely very uh fortunate in the fact that he's young enough that that's where they did those was at the water parks. Uh, there were no indoor water parks when I was a kid, so uh we were in a a hotel somewhere or a convention center, and that was all there was, but um, but it was a blast. I mean, I I vividly remember getting to meet these doctors, and a lot of who's who's are the people that we stand on their shoulders right now that paved the way for us, and we all need to be just so grateful for that.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, I remember just being in the vendor area and just collaborating with other chiropractors on what next piece of equipment I wanted to buy, whether it was an adjusting table or laser or software. Yep. And getting advice from your dad, getting advice from Steve Yeomans, getting advice from guys like Jeff Wilder, what's here that I can just test drive while I'm here and see and feel and talk to the experts.
SPEAKER_00And that's that's a really great point, right there, too. The vendors area there, too. You get that opportunity to see these products before you just buy them online. Um, you actually got the chance to try it. If you've never been to a chiropractic convention before, if this if you've never been something you've done, go to one. Go in there. They've actually got hilo tables, they've got flexion distraction tables. You can jump on them, they'll let you test them, see if you like them. And if you don't, you know then that's not the one to buy for yourself. Or if you like it, they'll send it home with you that day if you want.
SPEAKER_01So Jason, we got to wrap up. I know you got patience to see. I just want to give you an opportunity before we say goodbye. Any other words of wisdom before we close this out?
SPEAKER_00Yeah, I was gonna leave you with one last uh quote from one of my favorite authors, uh Larry Wingett. And this is one that that I truly try to live by every single day. And that is the best advertisement that you can ever have is a happy customer with a big mouth. And the worst advertisement you can ever have is an unhappy customer with a big mouth. Always remember to take the best care you can of every single patient. They matter. Awesome.
SPEAKER_01He is Dr. Jason Mackey from Lookie Store Mackey, primarily in the Madison area and surrounding. Jason, I just want to thank you for everything you do for chiropractic for the time today, and we definitely appreciate you.
SPEAKER_00Thank you very much. Well, Chris, it's been a pleasure. Thank you for having me on, and thank you for everything you do as well. Uh, your leadership has been a great bit to watch over the last few years at the WCA, so thank you for that.