2026 WCA Election Preview Featuring Rep. Clint Moses & John Murray

In this episode of Back to Basics, WCA President Dr. Chris Resch sits down with Wisconsin State Representative Clint Moses and WCA Executive Director and CEO John Murray. 

We have a special post election edition of the show where we will hear insights from two Wisconsin political veterans - State Representative Clint Moses and WCA Executive Director John Murray. 

Representative Clint Moses is in his third term representing the 92nd Assembly District (formerly the 29th AD) and is running for a fourth term. He is a graduate of UW Stout with a BA is Psychology and a graduate of Northwestern College of Chiropractic.  In addition to being a full time state representative and chairing the Assembly Committee on Health, he still practices in Menomonie with his wife at Red Cedar Chiropractic.

Our other guest is WCA Executive Director John Murray.  John is a graduate of UW Madison with a BA in Economics and Political Science.  He has been a policy advisor to a number of elected leaders in Madison, Washington, DC and Maryland.  He has been with the WCA for the past thirteen years.  

Transcript

SPEAKER_01 0:13

Welcome everyone to another edition of the Wisconsin Chiropractic Association Back to Basics podcast series. I'm your host, Wisconsin Chiropractic Association President, Dr. Chris Rush. And at the time of this recording, it's Tuesday, August 18th, 2026, which is pertinent because we have a special post-election edition of the show where we'll hear from the insights of two Wisconsin political veterans, State Representative Clint Moses and Wisconsin Chiropractic Association executive director John Murray. They are both veterans of the podcast. We're going to get right into post-uh election content here, but if you want to hear a little bit more insight about both of these gentlemen, uh they both did podcasts uh in earlier series. So you can go to the Wisconsin Chiropractic Association website or anywhere where you listen to your favorite podcasts and go to the Back to Basics library and you can listen in on their previous interviews. So I want to start with uh Representative Clinton Moses. He's in his third term representing the 92nd Assembly District, formerly the 29th district, uh before redistricting occurred. And he's running for his fourth term. So yes, he is a veteran. He's a graduate of UW Stout with a bachelor's degree in psychology and also a graduate of Northwestern College of Chiropractic. Uh, in addition to being a full-time state representative in Madison and chairing the Assembly Committee on Health, he still practices the great profession of chiropractic in Menominee, Wisconsin, uh, with his wife, Dr. Nora Moses, at Red Cedar Chiropractic. Uh, they started that practice, I believe, in 2003. So, with that, welcome, Representative Moses.

SPEAKER_02 1:48

Yeah, thanks, Chris. Thanks for having me back on. And yeah, this is actually the first time that I'm running on the same map that I had last time. My my previous three elections, it was a different district every time, just because the way things worked out with the census and the change with the Supreme Court and et cetera. So it's kind of good to at least have the same territory this time.

SPEAKER_01 2:08

All right. So you're knocking on some familiar doors, so which I'm sure you're doing a lot of. So I'm I'm grateful that we can get you sitting in your office chair for a couple of moments while we do this podcast. So I appreciate that. Get your steps in, I'm sure. So my other guest is Wisconsin Chiropractic Association Executive Director John Murray, a very familiar face to the chiropractic listeners out there. Um, John is a graduate of UW Madison with a bachelor's degree in economics and political science. Uh, he has been a policy advisor to a number of different elected leaders, not only in Madison, but also in Washington, D.C. and Maryland. Again, you can go back to a previous podcast and learn all about John's history, and it's uh quite vast. He's been with the Wisconsin Chiropractic Association as the executive director for the past 13 years. Welcome, John Murray. Thanks. All right. So, as I mentioned, uh, today is August 18th. Let's jump right into the August 11th statewide primary results in Wisconsin. At the top of the ticket was the partisan primary for governor. So, as we know, Congressman Tom Tiffany, he won the Republican primary with ease. But Milwaukee County executive David Crowley, he stunned the political world by winning the Democratic primary, edging out state representative Francesca Hong, who many polls had winning by over double digits. So I'm going to start with you, Representative Moses. I have two questions. One, were you surprised by the results? And two, what do you think both candidates need to do in November to win?

SPEAKER_02 3:34

Yeah, you know, I'd be lying if I tell you I was uh not surprised by the results. Um, but I'll tell you, former representative, uh county executive David Crowley uh really made a push. I think it also obviously helped having uh Governor Evers endorsement and the support from some of the people inside the building. It's really, really interesting too, because most all of these candidates, I even on the Democratic side, I knew a little bit personally. Um obviously a lot of them differ on what they think we should do policy-wise, but on a personal level, I did know all of them. Um, obviously, I know Congressman Tiffany. Um, my old district, about half of it was in the 7th. So I actually worked quite a bit with Representative Tiffany on issues for constituents as well. Um overlapped a little bit with uh Representative Crawley. Crawley actually left at the time I came in, but uh a couple sessions ago, a big deal for Milwaukee County was the shared revenue and helping out their pension plans and stuff. So at the time, uh Executive Crawley met with a number of us and did show that he could work together with the Republicans in order to come up with a solution to a problem that was not just Milwaukee County, but statewide. But um I think both of them, you ask what they got to do to appeal to voters. It's really the same thing that I'm probably hearing a lot of on the doors. Uh, number one is affordability, you know, looking at what the cost of gas is, looking at what the cost of groceries. Um, and then, you know, on the healthcare side, looking at making sure people have access and affordable access and dealing with some of the issues that come up that we see as providers with the insurance companies, um, whether it be prior off, and I'm getting a little bit ahead of myself because I'm sure this stuff will come up over and over in this podcast as well. But really, I think the number one issue this election cycle is affordability and also on a personal level, not just in our assembly districts, but also at the governor level is likability and the ability to relate to your voters. And actually, I do think that's a strong suit of both of these two gentlemen that are running for governor. Both of them, if you meet them one-on-one, they actually both come across decent, likable people.

SPEAKER_01 5:56

Well, I do have a Q couple questions about affordability coming up. So you have good insight there.

SPEAKER_02 6:00

I didn't want to jump ahead of myself too much, Chris.

SPEAKER_01 6:02

Yeah. Intuitiveness, I should say. John, same questions. Uh, how surprised were you at the re-election results? And what do you think that the candidates need to do to win?

SPEAKER_00 6:12

So as we are talking about, uh, you know, I live in the Madison area and kind of the fishbowl down here, hyper-political, and you know, a lot of coverage uh about you know Francesca Hong. Um I would say um I was surprised. There's no question Crowley, you know, uh covered a lot of ground in a very short period of time, given that he had dropped out, you know, about a month out. And then things happened with Sarah Rodriguez and Mandela Barnes, and he got back in. And so the fact that you had a Canada that had a month earlier dropped out of a gubernatorial race, closed that gap in a month to win, you know, albeit by only about a percentage point, is pretty extraordinary. Um, you know, the the the insight that that I think, and maybe you guys will look to this, Francesca Hong was looking at the polls and saying, I'm winning by double digits. So maybe it's her or her people who were telling her, you need to start to move to the center. Okay. And so she started to kind of, you know, moderate her position, if you will, on defunding the police and you know, things like that, which kind of made sense at the point at that point. But I think what happened was um you had a lot of people going, well, wait a second, you know, if you're gonna win the primary as this progressive, you need the power of the progressive movement, yet at the same time, you're starting to moderate your position. I think it took a little bit, maybe a little bit of wind out of her sales. Um, the other issue, and I think, you know, I want to be thoughtful about how to approach it, was the the issue with the the kind of encampment in Madison and the unfortunate shooting that happened here. I don't think it helped her brand out there if she was trying to moderate her positions to be out there with a bullhorn in front of an encampment. I think that that caused a lot of people to say, well, wait a second, uh, particularly independents that were potentially voting on that in that Democrat primary. Are you really moderate? Uh uh you're really saying you didn't mean to fund the police, yet you're out there with a bullhorn. So I think the object of that maybe hurt her a little bit with independent voters. And I think that maybe made of the difference. Uh obviously, if you look at we'll talk about a little bit with the poll that came out right after the election, independent voters show that they are a little more comfortable with David Crowley and kind of his profile is more of a centrist, although he is a little left-leaning. And so um, I'm not gonna say she made a critical end game mistake, but I think that maybe was a bit of a mistake that took a little win out of her sales. So, um, what do they need to do? I'll echo all the things that Representative Moses said. They've got to talk about bread and butter issues that affect the pocketbook. They talk about affordability, they have to just to relate to people. They're both very charismatic candidates, and um, and I think they have to stick to the issues. Now, that's gonna be really hard against the backdrop of all the other noise that's gonna be out there because you're gonna have all the Democrats trying to paint Tiffany as, you know, holding him responsible for everything that you know Trump did, good or bad. And then you've got um Crowley is gonna be pushed to say, Well, are you Francesca Hong? You're just a more you know moderate version of Francesca Hong. So the ability for those candidates to be able to stay on message and stay disciplined and have the resources to get that message out, fighting through all that clutter, that's gonna be their challenge between now and election day.

SPEAKER_01 9:16

Well, that's some good insight. So, next question for Representative Moses. So you're closer to this than anyone. Given that, you know, partisan control is in play for both parties in the Wisconsin legislature. What do the Republicans need to do to retain the majority?

SPEAKER_02 9:31

Well, one, I'm doing it right now, getting out and working hard and talking to voters and telling them what I've done. I mean, proving that I'm able to work across the aisle. Obviously, for the Chippewa Valley, we had some big wins in this budget. Um, thanks to myself and now retiring Senator uh Jesse James, actually. Um obviously Rogers Behavioral Health was a $12 million uh request in the budget that helps bring psychiatric care, uh, full service care for adults and children. We reopened the LA Phillips Drug and Alcohol Center in Chippewa Falls. So I need to prove that I can work across the aisle and get things done. And then I think the other real key piece, and I'm hearing it on doors, even with some of my Republican uh uh supporters, is that they're excited about the opportunity for new leadership. As uh many people know, maybe some people on this podcast don't know, both uh Speaker Robin Voss is retiring and Devin Lemahue, um, the Senate president, is actually retiring as well. So, I mean, new leadership, new opportunities. Um, I'm proud to say I had a number of bills. I think there was actually seven of them that received bipartisan, uh almost unanimous support and were signed by Governor Evers. So I got to talk to my voters and get out and show them that I'm not just far, far right, fringy, going down there to pick fights with people, that I'm actually going down there to try and get stuff done. Um, and especially, you know, not just in my district, but also on the healthcare side of things. There is a lot of common ground, a lot of issues that I think both Democrats and Republicans are interested in that uh we can continue to work on. But we also have to uh prove that we are the better candidate. You know, in my race, I think I'm the better candidate. More background, more experience, more uh roots in my community. And I think that's what's really important when you're going down to Madison to try and represent the people that elected you.

SPEAKER_01 11:28

So, John, Representative Moses is in is in the monomine E'Claire area. I'm in northeast Wisconsin, you're in Madison. So, what are you hearing?

SPEAKER_00 11:36

Well, at the risk of Sonalek, I'm shamelessly pandering to the representative. Um, his resume and reputation in Madison is very bipartisan. Um, and you can be conservative without being, you know, too far to the right. Um, there are some elected officials that come from very red districts that come to Madison and they take very partisan votes. And that's fine. That sells in their district. I'm not going to call those districts out. But um I would say, you know, Representative Moses has a reputation not just as a representative but as chair of the health committee, which is no easy committee to manage. I will say that. Um, just from an issue standpoint and a personality standpoint. Um, and I think that's that's important to not just have the reputation in Madison, but then go back and articulate what you've done to work in a bipartisan manner on issues that actually affect the district. Uh healthcare, you know, front and center, given all the dynamics of what's happening up in the Chippewa Valley with healthcare. Um so I think that's uh that's you know a good reputation to have and to be able to articulate why that's important. Um, you know, I kind of wrote down, you know, you know, you know, the old saying, all politics is local. I think Republicans need to make these elections local. They need to be about Clint Moses running for re-election in the 92nd and what you've done for them. The Democrats are gonna try very hard to make this about national. They're gonna try and make this about Trump. They're gonna try and make this about the right track, wrong track, which you know the poll showed, you know, are not favoring Republicans right now generically. And so that's gonna be the tug and pull. Um, so the last piece of that is Democrats is, you know, they can only get so far on um on nationalizing it. They can only talk about the bad things about, say, you know, the economy and Donald Trump and all that stuff. They still have they still have to come in with some solutions. And that's where you know your opponent, as much as they may want to beat you up and you know, tie you to Donald Trump to the degree they can try to, um, they still have to have some solutions. And that's where having a record of accomplishment which you have and and selling that in your district to your voters in terms of tangibles is gonna be important. Republicans, local, Democrats, national, but they got to have a final piece, and it'll be interesting to see uh what that piece is and if that piece resonates with voters. Uh, I mean, you're really only talking about what, eight, eight seats, probably, that are really gonna control majority control in the state assembly. You are one of them. I think you know that. And uh each one of those is gonna be that tug and a pull between nationalizing the election and and localizing it, and we'll see which one wins out.

SPEAKER_01 14:06

Yeah, for sure. Um, so back to Representative Moses. Let's talk a little bit about your re-election campaign. I know you touched on it already, but I want to go a little bit deeper for a couple of reasons. One, because I think it's important for you and your career and your campaign and your your position. And two, uh, you're a chiropractor. And to my knowledge, you're the only chiropractor that's ever served in the Wisconsin legislature uh since the beginning of time. So am I correct on that? Yes, you are. Yeah, yeah. So let's hear a little bit about your message and what you're hearing from your uh district voters and what's your message going to be uh between now and election day.

SPEAKER_02 14:44

Yeah, you know, and it reminded me listening to John talk too, because we all, the three of us come from different parts of the state. One of the biggest challenges that I have up here in the northwest Wisconsin, kind of on the fringe of the state of Minnesota, is I'm finding, you know, talking to constituents, talking to voters, they really don't know a lot about what's going on down in Madison. They don't know the good work that the Republican legislature and working with Governor Evers at times has done this session. Um, we obviously get the news from the Twin Cities primarily. So we're hearing all kinds of stuff about Governor Waltz and what's going on in the Twin Cities. Um, and not so much back here. So my job is to really inform them. Here's what I've been working on, here's what I've gotten done, and here's what I have planned for next session. Uh, that's the other thing. People uh I don't think they think about it. When we go into campaign or election mode, they think we're all just campaign mode. I'm here to tell you we're working on legislation right now. I mean, just last week I had two constituents reach out on varying issues um that they want worked on and they want a solution for. So if we're gonna introduce that legislation next session, we got to keep working on it. So I do have uh staff still down in the Capitol working on that stuff while I'm out here um obviously trying to get re-elected and telling people about all the good things that I've done. And like John had said too, it's local. We really need to focus, focus locally on what it is I'm doing to represent. The Democrats, the opposition in my race, and that's what they've been running since May, is all that I'm 100% mega, 100% supporting Trump. Um people need to realize our state government and what we do is in many cases completely different than dealing with the federal government and the policies of President Trump. But it is traditional in a midterm election for the incumbent party to be facing a challenge. I mean, we just generic ballot, we are facing a challenge. Um, so far things are looking pretty good. And like John had said, I am one of the six or eight. We actually have as many as 10 seats that we might be going after, um, but we definitely need our core six in the middle in order to keep a safe majority. Um, because we also have members in our caucus, even if we come back with 50, 51, or 52, that might be challenging. Like we talked about a little bit on this podcast earlier. We have some members in our caucus, and I'm not going to name them off because I actually personally like pretty much everybody in the caucus, but we have some that just won't work with the team and work across the aisle. And in most cases, that's because they come from districts that are so conservative, so safe that they feel like they don't have to. But also, I will say those representatives have never really had to run a race like I have to run, where you actually have to get out there, work, talk to people, take the tough questions, and just be willing to listen to people. Um, you can't just put your head in the sand and say, I'm a diehard right-wing conservative and uh winner seat like mine. It just doesn't work.

SPEAKER_01 17:56

Well, I'm gonna stay with you, and I want to either frame this as I'm going to give you the opportunity, or I might have to drag it out of you a little bit. But I want to talk a little bit about your accomplishments that have already occurred uh last cycle and even the last two cycles, uh, not to mention what happened with chiropractic and and Medicaid, while Border State Minnesota lost their ability to get chiropractors to become to get reimbursed for taking care of Medicaid patients. In the last three cycles, we've expanded our ability uh not only in reimbursement for the chiropractic adjustment, but uh parity with exam and x-ray, but now being reimbursed for extremity adjustments. Can you expand a little bit about accomplishments that you've personally been part of or collectively uh with the legislature as a whole?

SPEAKER_02 18:44

Yeah, certainly. I mean, and it's it's been a fun part, obviously. Uh typically on a number of issues, I find that as a provider, we have a lot more in common with our counterparts, whether it be our physical therapy counterparts, our podiatry, and even our MDs. Um, a lot of the issues we're looking at, um, all of us face the same challenges. But it's also important that we are on the same level playing field when it comes to reimbursement. Payment parity is absolutely essential for chiropractors because I feel like for too long we have been uh at the low end of the totem pole, so to speak, on a lot of those. But I'll be honest, I also try to uh take my provider hat off when I'm in the building sometime and also think about from a patient perspective and a taxpayer perspective as well, um, what's best for the state. You know, there are so many issues that we do have in common uh with Democrats. I think, for instance, I already brought up like prior auth, pre-authorization, that type of stuff. But also one big contrast that we've got is a lot of the other side of the aisle wants to go to single payer uh health care. That can be a big challenge. Now, yes, it was great that we got Medicaid reimbursement increases and we expanded some of the uh services that are covered under Medicaid. But we also need to make sure that we have a healthy environment uh when it comes to private payers, um, self-payers, and that type of stuff as well. Because universal healthcare, when you look at uh countries like Canada and some of the other countries that have done this, um, the reimbursement rate gets to be very uh unsustainable, not just for chiropractors, but providers across the spectrum as well.

SPEAKER_01 20:31

Hello, everyone. Have you seen our new Wisconsin Chiropractic Association website? It's awesome. That's where you can explore WCN membership, continued education, our help desk, classified ads, government affairs, legislative updates, and of course, our corporate partners who offer the great products and service that we use and practice every single day. You'll also find information about upcoming educational events, including the fall convention in Green Bay, September 24th through the 27th, and the Women's Health Forum, November 7th in Wisconsin, Dallas. If you want to become more involved, join one of our committees. Whether your interests include membership, education, insurance advocacy, policy, or political advocacy, we welcome your engagement. Finally, please consider supporting Chirostron, the WCA's political conduit. Your donation helps us support Wisconsin legislators who support chiropractic, and this allows us to advance important initiatives and also protect our profession. If you're wondering what's the easiest way to donate, simply go to our website, click on the advocacy tab, and select Chirostron. A one-time contribution is always appreciated, but a recurring donation of just $25 per month can make a tremendous difference. If we all participate, we can accomplish great things for chiropractic in Wisconsin. So check out the new WCA website at WICIro.org, and I think you're really gonna like what you see. And John, uh, I want to give you the opportunity as well because uh you being the executive director of the Wisconsin Chiropractor Association and your lobbying efforts in the Capitol were instrumental with the WCA and Medicaid uh accomplishments. So what do you see in the last you know couple of cycles that have been done from the state association standpoint and what you see politically?

SPEAKER_00 22:24

Well, I'm I'm gonna start again by thanking you know Representative Moses, because you know, state groups like the WC can work on these things, you know, put the policy together and bring the data, but ultimately we need champions in the state capitol like Representative Moses, uh Senator Rachel Cabral Gueveras, uh Representative Todd Novak. I mean, we've had a number of champions. Uh Andre Jacques, you know, he was going back to, you know, he's retiring. So I just want to make it clear, you know, we have you have to have champions in the state capitol, which is why helping get uh people like Representative Moses re-elected uh is critically important. Um you know, uh Medicaid was something that, you know, I know you've done a lot of work on that, Chris. Uh I I think um I think we kind of hit the sweet spot a little bit um, you know, from a strategy standpoint. Generally, you know, expansion of Medicaid doesn't bring in opposition from, say, the hospital association or the medical society or the insurance companies, is generally convincing somewhat frugal Republicans to, you know, allocate the money, which can be challenging because I respect their fiscal conservativeness. And uh, but I think you know, we we hit a really good spot there with expanding access and and expanding the payment parity. Uh, and you know, I think it's gonna help. It puts a little more money in chiropractors pocket, it gives you another tool in your toolbox to help that population, which can be very challenging, as you both know, because you're both Medicaid providers, to get them the care that they that they need. And so um I feel really good about that. I want to thank everybody. Um, I do want to kind of switch pivot a little bit and talk about prior off because um that is that is gonna be an issue that I don't think is gonna go away. The question is what is the right answer to that? And uh, you know, we were able to get that pushed through the Assembly uh Health Committee with your support unanimously uh for two sessions now, but we never got it to the floor and we never got it moving the Senate. And so um it's not a gotcha question, but uh it's really more of a what more do you think it will take to get some type of meaningful piece of prior authorization legislation um through the legislature and on to the governor's desk, regardless of you know whether it's Tiffany or Crowley, uh, in some way, shape, or form, because it's just you you hear about it from patients, we hear about it from providers, the issue is not going to go away. And whether a legislative fix is the right answer, we've got to deal with it as a policy issue uh in our state. And so I'm just curious what you think it'll take to get that across the finish line going forward.

SPEAKER_02 24:53

John, you were in on a lot of those same meetings that we had this session. I mean, literally, I wouldn't exaggerate if I told you we probably had a dozen or more meetings throughout the session with different stakeholders from providers and the insurance companies. And the frustrating part was we come back and have another meeting, and there wasn't much movement as far as coming to the center and negotiating on it in good faith. So um don't want to completely throw my insurance company friends under the bus, but that was very frustrating, to say the least. I do think, I mean, I'm optimistic that new leadership at the top will help because what happens, and and John sees it, he's been around the building uh before. There's a lot of people that are paid to come and uh talk to us and sway our opinion on things. And the insurance lobbyists in that building have a good presence. I mean, they do a good job uh advocating for their cause, their purpose. Um, and they really uh kind of killed the bill once it got out of committee, basically, the last two sessions. So I think from a WCA uh provider side of things, get to know your rep, get to know your state senator, and tell them about the frustrations that you're having in practice. Uh it tell them about the patient stories, the patients that aren't getting care because of bottlenecks in the pre-authorization process. Um, let them know what's important. And when we hear that bill again, or I shouldn't say that bill, because there might be different versions out there, because there's what we found is there's not really a one size fits all for all providers. The bill that we advanced through, um, looked at obviously chiropractors, physical therapists, speech therapists, audiologist. Um, and really from hearing from other groups like the Med Society and some of the other ones out there, you know, they would like to see something with primary authorization too, but their concern was how does it fit for different providers who treat different ailments, different conditions? How do we make something across the board that's gonna work? I will tell you, you know, I'm optimistic. Obviously, if uh Tom Tiffany becomes our governor, I have had conversations in the past with Tom Tiffany and his staff on both these issues. So on prior off and also hospital pricing transparency is very big to Tom. So I know in our case, the hospital association, you know, and in general, nationwide, our Wisconsin Hospital Association is one of the most compliant with the new federal transparency laws out there. But I know that uh Tom Tiffany wants to make a push in making sure that the consumers, when they go to a provider, they know what they're paying for and the pricing is upfront and honest. And to be honest, I can totally relate because in my practice, we've been practicing that way for probably 20 years. Where if you come in, uh if you don't have insurance, I can guarantee you, I tell you exactly what it's going to cost. The challenge becomes with some of these insurance companies that we take, and many of the members here would take, you know, I built my practice taking insurance, but when you're dealing with 30 different insurance companies and 30 different fee schedules, it is a challenge for the provider to always have accurate information and be upfront and honest with their customers and tell them here's what this plan of care is going to cost you.

SPEAKER_01 28:17

Gotcha.

SPEAKER_02 28:17

I could rant and rave a lot longer, guys, on that too.

SPEAKER_00 28:20

So so let me just couldn't agree more. Uh our doctors and their patients have to let their legislators know this is a real issue, that this is an issue with access to care, uh, quality of care. You know, these are plans that they've paid their premiums, whether, you know, however they've done it. And um, you know, you know this as a provider, you get a different story when the patient calls the insurance company and the provider, and that's that's a that's a whole nother issue. But um, I absolutely agree. Uh our members have to contact their legislators and we try to put a call to action, and they've got to tell the story, you know, make this personal about how it's it's really limiting access to care. Um, the other piece, and I have had this conversation in my communications with with Congressman Tiffany, um, the commissioner of insurance, and I'm not picking on any particular commissioner of insurance, but um, the commissioner of insurance, whomever that is under whether it's Governor Crowley or Governor, they've got to take their job more seriously and use the tools that they have at their disposal to be more aggressive of holding these insurance companies accountable. This idea that, you know, you get providers to file complaints with the OCI, and that somehow, first off, those complaints generally don't go anywhere. And second off, then a lot of times you get some retribution. And I'm not calling out any particular plan because I want to be careful, but providers sometimes are very reluctant to file that complaint with OCI because then they are on the radar screen of that insurance company. And then next time, you know, whether, you know, there's some retribution. So they they want to be careful. Uh, I think having the voice with the legislature to some degree maybe insulates them a little bit uh from maybe that retribution. But yeah, they have to make their voices, their their voices heard. Um, this is gonna be, you know, I'm not breaking into news here, but the number one priority of the WCA going forward, which is to find some type of reasonable solution. And I say reasonable because we're not saying that pre-authorization is not an appropriate tool in some cases, okay? That's not what we're saying. But the idea that you're gonna use pre-authorization, the way they're using it with chiropractic care, which is generally very, you know, low cost, cost-effective, you know, all this. You know, I understand on you know MRIs and other very high-cost procedures that a pre-authorization process is maybe appropriate, okay? But for chiropractic and physical therapy, and you know, the cost effect in this, they're spending more money in many cases on encrypting a pre-auth process. You know, the juice is not worth the squeezes, they say. And so that's where I think the common ground is that we've got to sit down and talk with policymakers like yourself and legislative leadership and the insurance companies to say, let's come up with a solution that you know that that works. Um, you know, that United Healthcare introduced or made a big announcement earlier this year that they're getting pre-authorizations, they're getting rid of pre-authorizations for chiropractic. Well, hold the phone, folks. Again, make it not making news here. They didn't quite get rid of pre-authorizations the way that I think they said they did. What they did is they're doing a reteering, which is very different. And so while it's progress in some way, the devil's in the details, and it shows that they are at least willing to make some efforts to address this issue of pre-authorization. But we've got a lot of work to do on this issue, uh, both as an advocacy organization with policymakers. So thank you for raising awareness of this. We're coming back strong next session, and this is going to be our number one priority.

SPEAKER_02 31:37

Yeah, and thank you. And it reminds me of some more thoughts I had on that too. And I think even though it's frustrating, obviously it didn't get across the finish line and didn't get signed. Definitely the last two sessions, there is a lot more awareness with the general public and certainly with the legislature. And to be quite frank, I think if I was not chair of that committee uh two years ago, two sessions ago, I don't think it would have gotten a public hearing. I think it would have got sat on. Um, but you know, this excuse that comes back a lot of times too is well, at the national level, they're doing this. At the national level, they're doing this. And these big insurers will come in and say, well, the federal government's already taken care of it. Well, we also need to have some teeth in our state. And like John had alluded to, we need someone at OCI that's actually going to enforce and go after some of these insurance companies that are abusing it. So I'm not trying to put the insurance companies out of business, but you know what? The stats show we ran the numbers on this last session. The amount of time and resources that they're putting into preventing payment on low-cost, high-quality care is astronomical. It would shock you.

SPEAKER_01 32:45

So from pre-off, you kind of saw this coming, Representative Moses, but I want to talk a little bit about the cost of health care. So this will be my final official question. But uh, you know, so many people are concerned about the cost, and and rightly so, whether it's uh someone that's you know my age, 60, and uh, you know, a lot of people are asking me, you know, when do you plan to retire? And it's a lot of people that are right around my age because they're wondering at the same time. And the number one concern of folks my age are the costs. But then you look at some of uh the younger folks out there and a lot of the younger chiropractors, but you know, you pick the profession. Uh a lot of us are in small business, we have to pay for our own health insurance. Uh I was just chatting with uh a young man, he's in his low 30s, married, two children, wants to start his own business. Health insurance costs for him are he can't find anything under $2,000. And they're looking at child number three, so they want to have a decent plan that's looking at $3,000 a month. So, chairing the committee on health, do you have any insight on what you can share with us with the Wisconsin legislature next session addressing these rising healthcare costs that have just continued to happen year after year, uh, or anything that's happening nationally?

SPEAKER_02 34:03

Yeah, certainly. And I mean, there's another big piece of the puzzle. Obviously, this doesn't affect us as chiropractors as much, except it will help with premium costs and an overall cost is pharmacy benefit manager reform, PBM reform. We need to look at doing something for that because that is one of the more common complaints I hear from our senior citizens, from people that need medications to treat certain conditions. Um, it's just gotten out of control. The last two sessions, there's been a very big PBM reform bill out there. Uh, my office actually has taken that bill and broken it into, uh, I think I've got it into four different pieces right now and looking at four different pieces of legislation. So hopefully we can at least get something done. And then the other thing we really got to look at is making sure that our providers across the board are able to practice to the full extent of their scope without infringing on other territories. You know, for instance, I don't want physical therapists doing spinal manipulative therapy out there. I mean, I do know some of that stuff does happen, but we need to protect our various turfs while at the same time, especially when you look at some of the uh different nursing certifications that are out there, making sure that those nurses and those healthcare providers are able to practice at the full extent of their scope while also ensuring patient safety. And then the other really big piece of the puzzle is making sure that we are not over-restrictive to not just healthcare providers, but any type of business. You mentioned a new doc, a new chiropractor that wants to open his own business. There are so many different permitting, licensing, uh, property taxes, all that different stuff that goes with opening your business. That honestly, I think a lot of people that when they start their business and they realize six months or a year into it, how much burden there is as far as uh making sure you're compliant with everything that's out there and the cost of owning your own business. I think there's a lot of people, if they knew what it was getting into it, they may not open their own practice. So we need to look at at least at the state level, that we're not increasing that burden for people that want to get started and uh be a productive member of society, open a business, help people in their community. You know, the feds, I think definitely Trump's administration has tried to do some of that stuff, but um, you know, there's still a lot more that could be done. And I'm not with the federal government, I'm in the state legislature. So I definitely stay in my lane, talk to the people locally, and uh do what I can.

SPEAKER_01 36:37

Gotcha. Well, we are getting close to wrapping this up. Uh, John, on behalf of the WCA, uh, do you have any final thoughts that you'd want to add to the time that we have today with our listeners?

SPEAKER_00 36:48

We we could do a whole podcast in of itself on you know on the issue of healthcare because there's so many pieces to it. Um, you know, I'll just maybe touch on a couple things. I agree with everything that Representative Moses said. Uh, and while PBM reform doesn't, you know, doesn't directly affect chiropractor per se, it is a huge portion of the spend that insurance companies have to deal with. And I think that affects other premiums, and there's, you know, and then there's enough money there for physical medicine. I mean, we can complain about chiropractors not getting paid enough. Well, in the end, that money's got to come from somewhere. And if they want to go and reform, you know, the pharmaceuticals, and again, pharmaceuticals have their role by, you know, in in the healthcare marketplace. But um, I think that that would be a really important piece. So if we could, you know, see some reforms on that that would maybe clear up, you know, clear up a little money, a little more money for chiropractic. Um, uh, I think the federal side of it is something that I think looking to next, you know, next the next two years in Congress, arguably probably split control uh of Congress. I think you're gonna see uh a conversation about the ACA subsidies, which are really driving a lot of the affordability of the plans. Um, cost shifting, you you know well what that is when you have hospitals in Wisconsin that are being under-reimbursed for Medicare patients, Medicaid patients, and they got to make up those dollars elsewhere. They're shifting those costs to private pay. And so, again, a lot of pieces of the puzzle, but I but I think uh if the legislature can really focus in on making sure that our Medicaid program is adequately funded, that we are taking care of that population to the degree it makes sense. Um, chiropractic having a robust benefit in there and being able to take care of those patients to the full extent. Because if you have more people seeing chiropractors, Medicaid patients seeing chiropractors, and even, you know, uh PTs, we're not gonna throw shade at them. Um, those are patients that are not getting MRIs, they're not consuming pharmaceuticals, and then they're not eating up more of the spend. So it's all it's all related, but I think it starts with uh, as you said, our our providers are able to use all the tools in their toolbox to appropriately getting that patient to the provider that can give them the best care, not sending them down routes of, oh my gosh, we now have to have a huge pharmaceutical spend or things like that. Um, that starts with scope, appropriate scope utilization. And I think that um we haven't had a huge scope issue uh in the legislature for a while, which, as you know, as a policymaker, Clint, when people talk about scope of practice, everybody runs for the hills. But if it's in the context of uh, for example, nurse practitioners, um, the the the law that got passed that allows nurse practitioners to be able to practice independently and arguably see more patients and utilize their tools so that they're not cluttering up uh urgent care, they're not cluttering up emergency rooms, they may be freeing up other primary care doctors for other more uh you know long-term diseases that can save us money. That's a great example, not related to chiropractic, that I think Wisconsin is going to be proud of. If you guys can keep looking at doing more of those things so that chiropractors can do their thing, I think you're gonna see some success. How much is gonna drive premiums down is gonna be another issue. But that's where we'd like to see you guys looking at your, you know, uh spending your time in the legislature, because those are those are things that patients see right away. And um, and then when they get better health care, they feel better, they have better quality of life. You know all the benefits of that. So we're excited about the opportunity to work with you. And we again want to thank you for all your help in in advancing chiropractic issues because we think that there's some really good things, not just from providers, but also from uh from a cost-effectiveness. And uh we look forward to working with you and new leadership. And uh uh we're optimistic about the session coming forward because we think there's some great opportunities for chiropractic.

SPEAKER_01 40:37

So, Representative Motors is do you have any final last thoughts before you get back to uh talking to your voters in your district?

SPEAKER_02 40:43

Yeah, you uh I will be very thankful when November 4th rolls around. Obviously, uh we're in campaign season right now and it's uh it's busy, you know, trying to balance uh family stuff and work and the hours to go into the campaign and managing campaign staff and just getting out and talking to people. I will tell you, uh, just when I'm getting tired at the end of the day, I'll get to some house or talk to someone that reinvigorates me and tells me, you know, keep up the good work or work on this for me. But it brings me back to my purpose, why I'm doing this. Because quite frankly, if this was just a job, there are definitely other ways that you could spend your time and resources that would probably be uh more beneficial, uh, at least personally, financially, that type of thing. But at the end of the day, getting out and talking to people on the campaign trail actually can be a good reminder why it is I'm doing what I'm doing. So with that, I I echo John's comments and that, you know, I'm optimistic next session, regardless what happens, you know, regardless we have uh split house or we lose the Senate, we'll keep the assembly or we uh flip the governor's office. You can rest assured that I'm gonna go down there and try and get stuff done regardless and pick the lane that I can be successful in. You know, if obviously we're divided government, that's gonna change maybe what ideas I bring forward, what type of bills we bring forward through the committee. Because I don't want to go down there and just have meetings and just bicker and fight back and forth. We actually want to try and accomplish something and get something to the governor's desk and hopefully the governor, whoever it is, whether it's David Crowley or Tom Tiffany, we can get that signed and get something done for the people.

SPEAKER_01 42:26

That's great. Well, Representative Moses, I want to thank you on behalf of John, myself, the Wisconsin Chiropractic Association, our members, and frankly, all chiropractors in the state of Wisconsin and their patients for sharing your perspective on the election at the upcoming legislative session and all the challenges that you face uh here in Wisconsin. And we want to wish you luck in the final couple months of your campaign as you pursue your fourth term uh in the Wisconsin State Assembly. So uh good luck to you and thank you very much. Along with that, John, thanks for giving your political experience, your insight uh on today's conversation. And uh and I want to thank you for your leadership that you uh exude as executive director of the Wisconsin Chiropractors Association. And I just want to let our listeners know that we just wrapped John up for a number of years. So we're taking John all the way to retirement as the executive director. So um so rest assured, chiropractors in the state of Wisconsin, we've got great leadership for years to come. And to our listeners, uh, I want to let them know that uh the WCA will continue working with policymakers uh on both sides of the aisle to protect our profession, reduce unnecessary administrative burdens, and always try to expand patient access to high-quality chiropractic care. So uh consider uh supporting the Wisconsin Chiropractic Association in membership, uh come to our conventions, take our education, and please consider donating to our political conduit campaign, Chiral Strong. That helps the WCA support representatives like Representative Moses, who are supporters of chiropractic. So uh please consider doing that. So, on the uh on behalf of the Wisconsin Chiropractic Association podcast Back to Basics, I'm WCA President Chris Rush, and I'm Wisconsin.