Ep 11: Still Standing: A Rural Farmer’s Journey Through Addiction and Recovery

In this powerful episode of the Rhino Resilience Podcast, I sit down with Jack Devie to talk about alcohol addiction, recovery, and the hidden struggles many people carry in rural communities.

Jack shares his personal journey through addiction, what finally pushed him toward change, and how he has now maintained recovery for more than 7.5 years while continuing to farm and serve others as an Addiction Peer Support Specialist with Milestone Community Wellness.

This conversation dives into:

• alcohol culture in rural communities
• stigma and isolation
• why so many people try to handle things alone
• the impact addiction has on families and daily life
• recovery, purpose, and rebuilding identity
• hope for people who may be struggling quietly right now

This is an honest, real, and deeply important conversation about resilience, recovery, and what healing can look like in rural life.

🎙️ Listen now at rhinoresilience.com or on your favorite podcast apps.
📺 Watch now on YouTube.

To connect with Jack Devie or learn more about recovery resources:

Jack Devie
jack.devie@milestonecommunitywellness.org

Milestone Community Wellness
https://www.milestonecommunitywellness.org

#RhinoResilience #RuralMentalHealth #AddictionRecovery #RuralLife #RecoveryJourney #MentalHealth #AlcoholAddiction #RuralCommunities #Resilience #Recovery #Hope #FarmLife

Transcript

0:19

Okay. Welcome back to the Rhino Resilience Podcast. I'm your host, Chris Rhino Swenson, and today I got a very special guest on, Jack Davey. And, uh, great story to hear, and he's a wonderful individual. Um, but first, first off and foremost, I just wanna thank all the listeners out there, the people that have been paying attention, um, commenting, sharing. Um, the response has been great. Please continue doing that and sharing these kind of conversations as it really makes a difference in the lives of some people. You never know the difference you can make in the lives of someone. So I definitely appreciate all of those things. And before we get in, we'll do our little Oopsie Tootsie weekly question, which is named after my wife's children's book, Oopsie Tootsie. Um, there's many people write in and wanna know more about me and other people on the show, so. And today's Oopsie Tootsie question is, what kind of music do you really listen to? And, uh, for me, I listen to all kinds of music. Um, but I'm pretty much a rocker at heart, you know, '80s heavy metal stuff, my favorite band being Mötley Crüe. Um, I'm known to do karaoke to Pantera, stuff like that. Um, but probably my favorite artist though is Gary Allan, and he's a country singer, and I love Gary. And man, I know probably all his songs, seen him many times, and I love that music. But recently though it's, you know, usually I have my SiriusXM on Hair Nation, but this, for the past three, four weeks I've had the '50s and '60s on. Something just to kind of mix it up, but, but that would be my thing. Jack, what would you, kind of music do you love to listen to? '80s rock. '80s rock. I, my favorite one, I have so many. I love Jackson Browne. Mm-hmm. I just, I don't know why. Jackson Browne. You know, anything- Goo Goo Dolls. The Goo Goo D- Dolls. And some of that has actually come from me being in recovery. I li- that music just, it calms me, it puts me in my heart, and it, it, it just helps. It's, it just puts you in a peaceful place, and it's, it's, it's cool and it's awesome. So, yeah. Yeah, I love that- Yeah 'cause it i- that kinda '80s rock, '90s rock stuff for me, it does. I mean, it's sometimes depends on the mood. You know what I mean, man? But, like, I'll listen to all sorts of stuff. But yeah, there are certain things that take you back to a certain time, and I just love listening to stuff like that. But, but no, as we get started today, like I said, as you know, my, you know, Jack is here on here, and I've been looking forward to having him on. Um, you know, I met him here up by one of my offices. You know, his, where he's at, at Milestone Community Wellness, used to be up here. Now they've grown so big and out there that, you know, they had to get some better settings. But, uh, I'd see him in the hallways sometimes and have little conversations and things, and he's always been a great guy to be around. And so I'm glad that you came on, Jack. I really appreciate that. I think the first conversation we had, I was walking down the hall talking to myself. Oh, that Yeah, that's right, and I think I remember- saying something like, "It's normal. It's okay. We all do it." But it's odd when all of a sudden you just get met with somebody, yes. Yeah. Yeah. But no, I want to kinda get started with this is just to kinda, you know, introduce who you are and kinda get into your story a little bit. And, um, I'm hoping that the story can resonate with a lot of people that are out there. Okay, so I'm Jack. I'm been in recover- well, let's start. I'm Jack, and I'm a third-generation farmer and rancher in northeastern Colorado. I grew up in Crook, went to Cleetie High School. I started my recovery journey over seven and a half years ago, and in about six weeks I'll reach eight years. So then my passion, you know, my, my story is lack of services in our frontier communities. And I drove 120,000 miles my first three years. My story really doesn't change, but And I got, and I decided, you know, these, what can we do to help these people out here to make recovery easier? Because people didn't ha- I had the means. I was lucky. I had the means and the money to make the trips to do what I needed to do, and not everyone has the, that. So my dream was, and a passion, was to get to our rural, our rural communities, frontier communities. And, and I got connected with Milestone, and you know, they, they've been really awesome with, "Hey, Jack, can you, you wanna do rural? Do rural." So I travel. I do Julesburg, Holyoke, and Haxtun right now, so. Then we have some amazing community partners with our Sedgwick. Sedgwick County is using some abo- opioid abatement money to furnish us an office. We co-locate in Haxtun in the hospital in the Melissa Memorial Hospital in Holyoke and Haxtun Health in Haxtun. And we have a wellbeing group in Haxtun on Thursday nights that is not strictly recovery. It's if you're struggling with mental health, come, come on down, and, you know, let's talk about it. So yeah, it's My Milestone team has been amazing to- Awesome hey, go f- follow your passion. Do what you gotta do. So yeah. Yeah, no, one thing that stood out as you said, 'cause I know that out here there's not a lot of providers around, and having to travel is something that a lot of people do. If I heard it right, you said you put on like 120,000 miles or something with that, but had the means to do. Could you kinda walk us through, like, how you found the help you needed or what that was like to find that and even with the travel time, along with being engaged with farming? That was the hard part. But I think the farming part was hard, but I think in a way it gave me freedom 'cause I could go. I'd just leave and I would go. Uh, my, I'm, my first therapist was amazing and I actually did an online, an online telehealth with her. And what she told me, and this is, and this kinda leads to the passion with Colorado Roots and the medical detox is she asked me how much I drank a day. And I tell her, "Well, depends when I got frustrated or what happened." And, and when she told me, "You're s- you should not be sitting in that chair because you didn't detox." And she goes, "You're a miracle." Mm-hmm. And this therapist was in Sterling. And she was kinda new, and she I cannot get anything in Julesburg, so she, she said, "Next week if you c- if you're willing to drive to Sterling, I'll see you next week." Otherwise, I, I was six weeks out to get any therapy or help, so. Oh, wow. A- and then after a while she encouraged me, "You need to start doing groups. You need more, you need more than me right now." So I started going to the AA group, and I have an amazing sponsor and You know, and, and the things that I do now, Chris, are if it wasn't for those people, I probably wouldn't be doing what I'm doing. Sure. They just supported me. And the support. I, I think, think in my recovery journey what I lacked in the first year was support from other people- Mm-hmm with the li- with the lived experience. "Hey, I've been through that with... I've been through that." And you go, "No, you haven't." Yeah. And realizing now we all go through the same things. And- Mm-hmm. You know, my support system is amazing. Yeah. And my two boys are amazing, and yeah. No, I think that's something that is huge, especially with either mental health or with substance stuff, that connection is one of the biggest things. I think a lot of times we get isolated out here a lot. I think sometimes the problems we all face just wants to isolate us away, but trying to make those connections and the right connections can be extremely valuable. Um, what are your, some of your thoughts on with the idea of connections? It's huge. I'm, you know, I, I had a farmer down here call me one morning at 6:00 in the morning and- I need somebody to talk to. And this is before I had my... This is before I had all my training done, and it's like- But you know what happened, Chris, is I... You go and sit with them. It, it, it... Sat with him for three... You know, I... Busy day, but this person is important. It- this person's life is more important than anything that I got going on, and that really hit me that said, "Hey, how many of us farmers and ranchers are really struggling and we don't ask for help?" Mm. We don't ask for help. And it's not. And I te- I even tell people around here, they go, "Well, y- you know, th- they'll say, "Well, we got..." Usually comes from their sheriff's department. They'll go, "Jack, we got somebody that's struggling." And hey, y- they do not need pro- per se professional help all the time. True. They just need somebody to sit and talk to and say, "Hey, I've been there with you. I've been there. I know how you feel." Yeah, no, I think that's a really big thing because, you know, I've done other episodes on reaching out for help or as I call it, like, calling for backup when you need some help, and that doesn't have to mean that you'll end up in a therapist's office. I mean, it's reaching out to a friend, you know, um, pastor, mentor, whoever it might be, 'cause the idea is just connect with someone to begin with. But it does take that courage to kinda open up. How was it for you in your journey as far as finding that courage to, like, recognize what that was like trying to recognize, like, "Wait a minute, I don't know if I'm doing too well right now. Maybe I do need some help," and kinda talk about what that was like maybe fighting some of those stigma things in your own head? That, the stig- I stigmatized myself bad. Mm. You know, reaching out, oh, it was... It actually got to the point, Chris- Suicide Mm. I was contemplating suicide. Mm. And I actually kinda almost did act, but I didn't. And that's when I go, "Man, something... There, there's gotta be something somewhere out there that will help you." And, and that, and then that's when I got my therapist and- You know, going through the recovery process, all the, all the guilt and shame and all the things. But even with that, and I'll push this out there, because my feelings and the why, the whys that led me to, the whys that led me to open, to pop that top. You know, my f- your feelings being valid. You know, we all have feelings. It don't matter if somebody thinks they're crazy feelings. You have a feeling. Your feeling is valid, and you know, like I would be told, "Well, you shouldn't feel that way." Well, if I'm not supposed to feel that way and I can't express my feelings, I'm gonna reach to something that numbs them. Mm-hmm. So, you know, and, and I might be getting off course here a little bit, but you know, I, I went through all my whys. At, at four years after I did the steps, got through the steps, I went to my therapist and I said, "I gotta get to all the whys. I need to know every reason I popped the top on a bottle of beer," and all the things I was trying to numb. Because some of it was people didn't wanna I felt people didn't wanna hear me. Mm-hmm. Or I was just afraid to express them. Mm-hmm. And now I, I just, now it's I shoot from the hip, and I know I offend and hurt some people sometimes, but that keeps me at peace. So- Yeah yeah, it's- No, I, I love what you said too because you're right. It's some of that shame, the guilt, I mean, that is something, a big driver for a lot of substance use. And then when they start to talk about things, people respond to them in a way that you, they almost get shamed again, and that makes them go hide even more. Um, and so yeah, I mean, there's a lot of important stuff about how to kind of make sure you're there and listening to what people have to say. But what you describe too is something similar like for me where I grew up. You know? I mean, I didn't grow up here, I grew up in, like, rural Minnesota. Um, but, like, similar things where, yeah, it's just, you know, pick yourself up. You know, suck it up, buttercup, stuff like this. You don't have those conversations. And it does make it odd because when you're having those feelings, you're like, "This is real to you," but everyone else is like, "Maybe I shouldn't have these." And that gets you to think that there's something seriously wrong with you, where what I've found out is, man, I, I stress this hard, that what we deal with is biology. We're all built the same way. We all have the way we feel this. It's the, you know, dealing with our nervous systems, this stuff. It's a biology that's built in, and if we don't know how to manage that, then we start to have some more problems with a lot of that. So do you find that there's been a lot of people out there that you've run into where that's been the hardest step, is just reaching out to begin with? Walking through the door. Mm-hmm. Yeah, walking through that door and admitting, "Hey, I need, I need help." And you know, I, I'm working with a person now who's still in act- still active use and- He goes, "I don't know if I can do this." And I go, "You can do it, 'cause if you wasn't, you wouldn't be sitting in that chair. If you didn't wanna do it, you wouldn't be sitting in that chair right now. So we just gotta figure out how to do it. What's gonna work for you? How are, how are you gonna get through this? I'm here to guide you. You make the decision." And it, you know, and it's... I tell him, "It's as simple as this. Just don't drink or just don't use." Right? Those, those words are so simple, but it is so hard. Mm-hmm. Yeah. You can make it sound as... And it's not, it's not that easy, 'cause you're... These people w- they'll literally try, maybe go two days, three days, and literally just try, but something pops up. And I got my, I got my best friend. It's a, it's a line, it's in a pipe, or it's a, it's in a bottle. I, I got... That's my friend right now, and I'm gonna go I'm g- I'm gonna go have my friend take it away. Yeah. No, I've always talked about those kind of things as well, where people, when they're, you know, whether it's beginning to kind of get through the process, where just, like you said, it's simple just to stop using, but sometimes that just seems like it's just the start of the journey, because there's a whole bunch to it. Some people got that identity tied to using. A lot of their friends do, and so it's looking at all these big holes in their life that, how do you fill all these holes now? And some may have not learned, as many of us, is how do you deal when life presents itself, you know? We just get our typical responses we've trained our brain to. And so what have you kind of found, like, through that process, or maybe what was it like for you having to kind of put in, fill in those holes for you and kind of almost, like, rebrand an entire life in a different way? Get rid of boredom. Mm-hmm. Because when you get, when you get sober, you, it's like you, oh, I got all this time now 'cause I'm not driving to the liquor store. Um, a- and it's... But the hardest one for me, Chris, was 4:00 in the afternoon. Mm. 4:00 in the afternoon was probably when I'd pop- most days popped the first top. And man, my body would tell me it's 4:00. And root beer barrels or something. You know, just to get, just to get through that. But it was funny, after I got through that and started going to my AA groups, which the first... When I started going to AA, I hit every one I could every day of the week. And it was funny, after I started going to the meetings and stuff, it was 5:00 would pop up. It was, you know, I'd start feeling something at 5:00, and it was, "It's time to go in the house, get cleaned up, and go to a meeting." And it's funny how your body actually will tell you Mm "This is what you need to do right now." Yeah, no kidding. Yeah. I think people don't realize that. We train our mind and body almost like AI does, where whatever you do consistently, you're telling it to remind you then. And it's bizarre how, yeah, you can almost set a clock to it. Yeah, and it's, you know, and it, that's the hardest thing even now over seven and a half years, is boredom. Mm. What do I do in my downtime? But I've learned also... Go ahead. Oh, I was gonna say, like, what did you find that really kind of filled that gap, or what works for you to, to face some of the boredom? So my, my deal was financial stuff. I, uh, actually before I did... I was pretty good at doing books and stuff while I was in active use, but man, it, it just got to the point, checkbook's gotta be balanced. Every... You know, I gotta know what's in this account, what's, what's here, what's there, and play with numbers. I just love to sit down and I build spreadsheets on my computer and people go, "What are you doing?" I go, "Oh, it's just way, it's just ways to help me keep track of stuff." And keeping, yeah. And being on time to everything, and keeping, m- being, being accountable. That, that, being accountable is, that was a huge one. When I became accountable to everything, that it's nobody else's problem, it's mine. Mm-hmm. That, that was a big change. Yeah. Could you tell me more, a little bit about that? Because it seems a lot when I've worked with people, whether it's substance or mental health, there's a lot of easier almost, like maybe self-protective to blame either others or situations or things out of our control. But when it comes down to it, that becomes that easy excuse to continue, whereas sometimes having to face that reality of, oh my gosh, it's me, and I have to have that courage to be able to face me. And sometimes that's a tough fight with all the other demons in our head trying to, like, keep us using or struggling with the problem. But could you tell me more about that? Yeah, I think what really helped me with all of, with all this stuff and keeping me accountable is when I did the fourth step. Mm. I wrote everything. You know, the fourth step isn't about everybody around you, it's about you. Mm-hmm. What is wrong... You write every, you write everything down that is wrong, wrong with yourself. And it makes you look, "Oh, I could do better." Somebody said something may- well, that person said something and it made me angry. W- why am I angry over what somebody else says? Th- that's their problem, not... Th- that's theirs. N- that's theirs to carry, not me to carry. Mm-hmm. And I, that was, doing the fourth step and, you know, going through it with my sponsor was, it was, th- there's just a freedom once you get done with it. And actually, I think anybody, anybody in life ought to really do the fourth step. Mm. By, I, even if you have a substance use problem or not. I, it makes you look at yourself. No, I would agree, because, like, in my own life, I always say there's two different parts. Like, you know, there's little Chris and then there's Rhino. And w- yeah, I always say, like, little Chris because growing up there were two Chris's in my neighborhood, and I was the younger one, so I was little Chris. Even though I was bigger than him, but everyone called me little Chris, even the parents did. But there was that mindset of little Chris that wasn't right and caused problems, and it just, it was not gonna lead me to where I needed to be. And I mean, it took many years. Like you described, like, recovery, you know, you hit that fourth step, but then there's a lot more after that. And I always make it sound like it was just a one-time thing, but to explain it, it was, I basically had to lock myself into a dark room, and I had to expose myself and meet all my demons inside, and come to terms with who or what's going on with me entirely. And whoever walked out of that room had to be something different. And when I did is when I kinda started what I describe as my Rhino mentality. But over the years, that's evolved into something larger now that has guided my life. And without doing that, there's no way that I would be where I am today. So I agree where anyone could kinda take a look at that. But I'll tell you, having to face yourself and look in the mirror sometimes is a difficult thing to do, and it scares people away, and they wanna kinda run back into what's comfortable. Being comfortable in your own skin. Yeah. And it, even through the recovery process, it, it probably, I'd say took me three or four years- Mm just to get, just to get to that point. Yeah. No, I- 'cause when people talk about it, like gosh, if they, people could just quit using. And, and it's a lot of what I continue to say is it's That isn't it, man. That just starts a journey. There's so much more. There's a lot of things to it. And I think, like we talked about connection, I think that's the biggest thing is because there's no reason to do anything on your own. You know, I'm a big guy about team. I have learned what team truly means and having a team. Um, and part of it is accountability, but a lot of it is, is you don't have to go through life alone. You know, is a lot of times our problems want to isolate us and think that we're the only ones who have this, but that's a lie. There's a lot of us that are dealing with things. And when we begin to find that courage to reach out and make a differ- or at least make some difference in our own lives, you know, that's when things kind of start to happen is connecting with people, you know, being around them. And I think with substances, maybe you could speak more to this, but y- y- it's something that you're not gonna be able to do just on your own. I think it's something where it is, is to find the right teammates and the right people to guide you. It, it is. You need to surround your people, sur- surround yourself with the right people. And you keep your circle small. At the beginning it was keep your circle as small as you can, 'cause I don't wanna deal with any... I don't wanna deal with anybody else, 'cause I'm trying to deal with myself right now. And you know, that's the phone calls. I, uh, I... My sponsor, you know, I call him in the morning. Just a little story. I call him in the morning. I got all these things to do. How am I gonna get anything done? And he was always blunt and honest with me. "You're just having a damn pity party. Go put your boots on, walk out the door, and you're not gonna accomplish everything you're gonna wanna accomplish today, but you ain't gonna get anything done if you don't put your boots on and go get started." But I needed that push. Yeah. I needed that push to say, "Hey, I can, I can do this. I just needed a..." And I really don't know why I needed that push, but- You know, and I, I talked to... I barely talk to, I very seldom talk to my sponsor now. I, it, and it's kind of cool, 'cause you, you do have a sponsor, but sometimes they become, you become the sponsor and they become the sponsee. It's just And I think what, with that dynamic, Chris, was we were so much alike. We are so much alike that it just clicked. Mm-hmm. And it was, you know, I, and- He's not even my sponsor anymore. He's just a good friend. Yeah. No, that's what I mean by finding the right people and having a teammate, you know? And sometimes teammates that have either been through it, and if they haven't been through it, they're willing to walk that road with you, and just to be there with you becomes very, very valuable. But yeah, I think those push sometimes is what we need because, man, are we good at convincing ourselves not to do something, you know? But- Or even, or even not, you know, even just to keep our own garbage going on when it, when it requires a time. I know I do that to myself a lot of times. I'm like, "All right, Chris, how's this working for you? It's time to start getting forward. You gotta do something. You can't sit here. You're not getting anything done." Right. Yeah, and you know, and, and, you know, especially in the ag, people always ask me, "You, you, you farm?" "Yeah." "Well, how does your day go?" I go, "I have a day planned. First 10 minutes, that plan is shot." So, you just restart your day. And, and I think, I think even, I don't think that just pertains to ag. I think it pertains to everybody. You know, your day's not going good, restart it. Restart it. You know, if y- if you really think you need to accomplish something today and you, it's gonna be a little bit hard, but it can wait till, don't procrastinate, but wait. If it can wait till tomorrow and it might be a little bit easier tomorrow, do something else so you feel good about yourself, and then tackle it. Or me, I usually just tackle the hard stuff first and get it out of the road. But, yeah. Mm-hmm. Yeah, no, it's interesting 'cause, uh, I built Rhino Resilience around four pillars, and all four pillars need to be integrated, and one of them is adaptable and wise, and that's what we talk about, is yeah, you can have a plan, but as soon as the boots hit the ground, it's plan B now. And having a lot of different tools to be able to navigate through that day as far as, all right, I got a list of stuff, but all right, what's most important now in front of me? Or having an overwhelmed list and you're like, "Where do I start?" And it's being able to have those abilities to learn how to, you know, find the high-value targets. What's gonna be the first one to get done first? Or, or like you said, get the hard stuff done first. Some people decide, "Hey, I'll just take the easy stuff, start knocking stuff off a list." But to me, I don't care what it is, just keep moving. You know, moving in a direction and not just quitting or stopping, because things will always continue to go. But one thing that a lot of people miss is, is recovery, and I know recovery means something kinda different in a substance world, but what I'm talking about is, like, recovering at the end of a day or even throughout the day. You know, there's only so much that we can deal with throughout the day where our stress is building, this stuff goes on, and if we don't learn how to empty out the cup a little bit, we qui- we can get quite burned out. And for me, with Rhino Resilience, it's not just about telling people to not be strong, because out here you gotta be. That's just the nature of the beast. Right. And you have to be. But what I'm looking at is kind of rebranding it, about what does true strength really look like, and that has that other side of the coin besides the grit, the drive, the push through, but the other side about recovery and adaptability, that flexibility as well. Because without that, it, you know, you're not gonna make it for the long haul, and that's what I wanna have, is kind of almost like a rebranding of what strong means out here. Because then that way, um, it's about we can push through. I think a lot of people can push through, like they can get through things. They'll find a way somehow. But to do it for the long haul consistently with your performance up, that requires something different, and that's what I try to hope to bring with Rhino Resilience. And I think it's just kind of like what you probably have with substance stuff as well, that it's just doing something different a little bit each day. You know, growing a little bit each day. Was that something you found when you went through recovery, that it wasn't tackling all this, it was just little things each day, like one step or something? That's what, that's what happens in early recovery. You got all this stuff, and y- you can overwhelm yourself. So let's take, scrape stuff off your plate. You know, let's do what you can, do what you can today. 'Cause you can get, you get so overwhelmed that- You think you... I think where we get caught in early recovery is, for one thing, I'm sober. Oh, that's a great thing, right? That is. Then that is a good thing. Mm-hmm. You are sober, and that's the most important thing today, but you still have to live life. And I, and I think what happens, because we numb the feelings so much before, now we're starting to feel everything. Mm-hmm. And those feelings become so overwhelming, and you're going, "Oh, how do I deal with this? What..." And I think we a- you know, you'll hear the word practice the pause. Pause. Pause and take a deep breath, and just start, what can I do right now? What can I do right now that'll make me get s- accomplish something, but also make me feel better? And I might be rat holing on this, but I know mine was, in early recovery, was being overwhelmed. Mm-hmm. But also in, in early recovery, there's a grieving process. Nobody, nobody thinks about this. Mm. There is a grieving process, and I didn't I kinda learned this one, and, you know, I, I give kudos to my therapist 'cause I seen her one day and she goes, "You're grieving." And I go, "I haven't lost anybody. Uh, nobo- I haven't, no, I haven't lost anybody to death or anything." And she goes, "No, you're grieving." I go, "No, I'm not." She goes, "Yeah, you are. You're grieving the loss of your best friend." And I go, "But my, I haven't lost any friends." And she goes, "That little bottle you used to hold in your hand was your best friend." Mm-hmm. "And now you gotta go find friends." Mm-hmm. So there is a grieving, and there is a process. I mean, people don't understand the process of recovery. It, and it may be different for... in the way it lines up it- it's different for, it's different for everybody. But, you know, you go from, "Wow, I'm sober," so you're on the pink cloud, and it's you're riding the roller coaster, the ups and downs. And then you go through, you do, you go through a grieving process And it's, ah, it's crazy. It's, it, it... And people don't understand that. And, and you know, it's not about being sober, it's about being emotion- being em- emotional sobr- emotional sobriety. Mm-hmm. Is that you can be sober and white-knuckle it and be, and still be miserable. But you gotta be, you gotta get to emotional sobriety where you can start enjoying life. And, you know, I think people outside the recovery world would look at people and go, "Geez, they're sober, but they haven't changed." Well, they're learning to change. They gotta learn new habits, new things. And I think what really got me was when I found out that, hey, I got sober, and this is the person I was trying to hide all the time. Mm-hmm. This is who I am, and I was just so scared to let that person out- Mm-hmm that I hid it. And- I love my life now. Uh, doing the things I do. I, I open... You know, going back to doing the Lift the Label stuff. If I opened my mouth, they said, "I don't like your posters. You know, you're not doing rural." You know? And they go, "Well, you..." And it was kind of funny, Chris. When that one come up, I got an email and a telephone call, and, "Jack, we're gonna do, we're gonna do rural stuff this year." And I go, "Okay." "You're gonna be a part of it, aren't you?" And I'm going, "You started it. You can't, you can't say no." So But it is. It's just I got, I got out of my own skin and got away from myself and said, "Hey, these rural communities need help. Let's help them." And y- and searching for that help in these rural communities, y- I would search for people to help me, and eventually the help just found me. You know, Lift the Label, Colorado Roots, all those things, they just, "Hey, you're doing this out here. Let us help you." Mm. And I don't know if it's really helping If they're helping me as if we're just helping each other now. Sure. Yeah. You know, the, the great things you're doing, it's, this has helped. We're just trying to, we're just all trying to do our little bit of l- our little part to help people, and yeah, that's what we do. Yeah, and I think that's what's great too because we, going back to, like, connection, I think a lot of us, we might be, "This is what I do, but I don't do everything." And the ability to communicate, connect with each and every one of us, that with all of us coming together and, you know, common messages and common languages, that now we can elevate this to an area where, you know, I love rural areas, you know? And there's a lot of statistics showing that there's a lot of struggles here in this, but it's beautiful besides all that other stuff. But I think we can elevate this, that we can become even stronger, even better than what we've started off with and have, and I think that's just a part of it. And I think that's just the, instead of changing entirely, it's just learning to adapt and deal with things differently. And once we begin to do and we all work together, I think that that could be a, an amazing, amazing piece. But I'd love to hear kinda from you too, like, once you got through kinda the hard part of recovery and what's leading, you know, kinda like what, what led to this, to what you're doing today? Kinda talk about, you know, what you do today and how you feel about where you're at now in this entire process after you've faced all these, you know, your dark demons and things like that. But Well, so yeah. So I became a certified peer and family support specialist, and then I got, uh, recently got another credential, so I think, don't quote me, but a B- behavioral health assistant. So it's a little bit, not a therapist, right? I'm not a therapist. I'm just a peer support. So what I do is I meet people where they're at. They come in the office or phone call, I meet them where they're at. They're in active use, so be it. I'm here with you. If you decide you wanna change and you wanna change, you need detox, y- you need a rehab center, I'll help you find it. If you tell me what you want, I will help you achieve your goals. And I- And, you know, and then, uh, like I said, I help 'em... Most people will ask me, "What do you do?" And I go, "I'm a hope dealer. I, I give these people hope." You know, you can do this. I did it. In my darkest moments, I did it. You can do it, too. And, you know, just help 'em along. It, they... And you know, we... A client'll come in one week and they'll talk about something. The next week, it's completely different. So, you know, we don't go back to what wa- we don't go back to last week, 'cause maybe h- that person processed that through the week, so let's, let's talk about what's going on today. You know, are things good? Are things bad? How does it make you feel? I lo- I, I always ask them. So they'll, they'll tell me something and it's how does that make you feel? Because you're dealing with, you're usually dealing with a feeling that you numbed. Mm-hmm. And you know, a- and it's funny because they'll sit there and they'll, they'll process it, and then they'll start talking about it. But you know, I th- and I'm grateful to Rebecca and the mile- my Milestone team. You know, I, I met Rebecca and this is how it kind of, this is how it kind of rolled. Rebecca come and played softball with us and she was And I, I don't think this will offend her, and I hope it don't, but you know, she was playing outfield and the other team found out our weak spot, so they started picking on her. And she, she's going back. You know, we're, we're here to have fun. We're not here to win. We're a bunch of people in recovery- Right just having a good time. And I told her, "We'll help you." So like I was coaching them, so I told her, "Well, we'll just move another outfielder closer to you so you get some help." And, and that's how it kind of become that just, we just help each other, right? We don't- Yeah I'm not taking you out. We're, you're playing t- And you know, and then I turn around and wasn't paying attention, and she gets on base. And I re- Yeah that's how I met, that's how I met Rebecca. And you know, and they had a job offer come up, and they told me, "You ought to apply," and I, so I applied. I really didn't think at that time, Chris, I'd get the job. And I got a call and said, "We're hiring you. When do you want to start?" So it's And my Milestone team is, they're wonderful. I, you know, with the other peers in there now, it's, we, it's, you know, we're all from different, we're all different, you know? And the way we do as peer supports, we're all different. We, we, we have our style, you know? Th- th- we, we basically do what worked for us, 'cause that's what we know. Mm-hmm. And to be able to bounce stuff off of other peers in there and yeah, it's- I would have never thought seven and a half years ago I'd be doing this. Mm. I would ne- I never, I never thought and, but I had people that said, "Hey, your voice carries. You, you can carry a message, so carry the message." So, yeah. No, I think that's what's wonderful is we never realize how much a difference we can make in the lives of other people. But I think for your journey, man, that, you know, hats off to you for the courage that it took to go face all that and, you know, to continue to walk through it. I know many people will get referred to me and tell me that I'm going through hell, and they told me, "If you're going through hell, you're the guy to talk to." And so, you walk with it, but man, you walked that journey and you did. It might not have been a straight road, as most of them aren't. But however you did it, you walked through and got to where you're at, and I'm very proud of you, man. I think that's just awesome. So con- hats off to you, man. Well, you're a pretty special person too, Chris, so yeah. Doing the things you do. Yeah. But no, as we kind of look to- Well- Kind of look to wrap up a little bit here, um, what is something, like if there's someone out there right now who maybe is unsure about reaching out for help or, you know, maybe they're struggling with substances, maybe they don't know, um, what kind of message might you have for some of them? Because as they begin the road and take a look at this mountain that they might have to climb, I mean, what kind of advice do you have for some of those people out there? Reach out. Reach out to anyone Just reach out, and don't be afraid to walk through a door, 'cause there's help behind that door. That, don't be afraid to ask for help. Mm. You know, and I, I, I don't have our Milestone information, but, you know, milestonecommunitywellness.org. Y- you can search it up, and it'll give you all the information. You know, I think our, I think our organization is doing good things. So yeah, reach out to, reach out. That's, reach out to someone. Anyone. I think, yeah, I think that's what's wonderful. And I'll put all like your Milestone stuff in the show notes and things like that as well so people can check that out. Um, but that is it, you know? It's just to reach out, and it sounds like we've talked about things being very simple, but not easy. And I think that battle in your head, man, it begins when you start to go, "You know what? Maybe I should reach out for help." And if you listen, your mind starts trying to go to other places, not to this, and those are the things we all need to pay attention to to learn how that gets us to pop the top, in your words, you know? That, man, we, you know, it's, it takes a lot of courage to do, but once you do, the relief. It's not, you know, it's not as scary as people think. And to me is, people can live differently. There, there can be a way, and the truth is you're not alone. So no, I appreciate those words of reaching out. So any final thoughts to add before we look to wrap up or? I, I just wanna share one little story. W- I'd like to share this story, Chris. So I was, I was coming home from a group one night, and my son, my youngest son, and I hope he don't kill me for doing this, but he says it's usually okay to talk about it. He called me, and he goes, "Dad, I think I have a problem." So I said, he, he moved out, so I went, got off the interstate, went and seen him, talked to him. And th- this kid has been sober for five years. He got sober before he turned 21. And I, I went to a meeting, and we would go to meetings together, but it was always we're not father and son. We're both, we're both there as people in recovery. And he shared this to me, and he shared this. He goes... So I go, "How, how did you get caught up in it?" And he goes, "My dad taught me." Mm. Wow. And I bo- I fell to my knees, and I go, "You know, I did teach him. I did teach him things start getting tough, go pop a top." But in the end, I also showed him the way to recovery too Yeah, no, that's That's, that's a story I don't share very often, but that, that hit hard. Yeah. No, I mean, that's something that my fourth pillar, which is quietly powerful, talks about a lot of leadership and self-leadership. But it's about the way we carry ourselves and the impact we have on others, and you just described it, you know? And I think we're not aware sometimes of the messages we're sending to our younger people, but at the same time, we get a chance to change some of those and change what the message is up. But, but yeah. I know. I just... Thanks for you coming on. I mean, it's, it's been great. I have enjoyed it tremendously. And I know if there's people out there that are listening and things like that, that maybe this kind of resonated with you, um, feel free to reach out. Um, and we'll have all the links and things in the, you know, in the show notes. Um, but and also if maybe this got you to think about somebody, and if it did, feel free to share that because a lot of times is it might not be you or maybe someone you know, but as you begin to share with others, it reaches somebody, and you might be able to touch the lives of someone that you never really have never, ever met. So please make sure to do some of those things. But we'll look to wrap up for today's episode. And with that, stay steady. We're in this together