Remote Notarization Fees and Identity Verification

Have you ever wondered how to set your pricing for digital signings or how to properly confirm a signer's identity through a screen? In this episode, Eddie Montes Travis and Marylyn Lee Trotter explain the core components of managing costs and security in the digital space. We look at the technical steps required to stay compliant while ensuring your business remains profitable in a remote environment.

• Fee Structures: A look at the difference between state-mandated maximum fees and the additional convenience charges allowed for technology use.
• Identity Proofing: Detailed explanation of how Knowledge-Based Authentication (KBA) works to verify a signer before the session begins.
• Credential Analysis: Understanding the automated technology that checks the security features of a government-issued ID card during a remote call.
• Platform Expenses: How to factor in the monthly or per-transaction costs of software into your total service price for clients.

Navigating the world of online transactions requires a firm grasp of both technology and local regulations. By streamlining your identity verification process and clearly defining your remote fees, you can provide a seamless experience for your customers. Please subscribe and like the podcast to help us bring you more helpful tips for your business!

Show Notes:
• Overview of state-specific fee caps for remote online notarization.
• The two-step process of KBA and credential analysis explained.
• Tips for managing platform subscription costs and transaction fees.
• Best practices for record-keeping and journal entries in a digital format.

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Your Sunday Notary Reading:
Notary Public Foundation: Essential Guide to Core Duties, Ethics, and Commissioning on Amazon

Your Monday Notary Reading:
Notary Operational Excellence: Mastering Certificates, Journals, Ink, and Copy Certification on Amazon

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Notary Fraud Shield: Real-World Tactics, Red Flags, and Refusal Strategies on Amazon

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The Mobile Notary Blueprint: Launching and Managing Your On-Demand Business on Amazon

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Notary Niche Navigator: Your Guide to Loan Signings, Apostilles, I-9s, and More on Amazon

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Notary Law & Liability: Understanding State Regulations, Insurance, and Avoiding UPL

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The Future Notary: Mastering RON, eNotary, and Complex Scenarios on Amazon

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Executive Producer Derrick Spruill
Writers Marylyn Lee Trotter and Eddie Montes Travis
Graphics & Illustrations by Eddie Montes Travis
Music by Thomas Bynum
This Show is Produced by Magnificent Workz
Business Solutions

Transcript

SPEAKER_02 0:00

Are you an aspiring notary looking to join millions of other notaries? Start your journey with the Notary Public Foundation by Derek Spruell. This essential guide provides the step-by-step process to becoming commissioned in your state. Don't stumble into the role. Walk into it with confidence. Grab your copy of the Notary Public Foundation by Derek Spruell on Amazon today.

SPEAKER_00 0:25

Usually, um, when we talk about preventing fraud or you know, witnessing a signature, there's this really ingrained expectation of a physical, tangible reality.

SPEAKER_01 0:36

Yeah, absolutely.

SPEAKER_00 0:37

It's like the sound of a pen scratching on paper. It's the heavy thud of a rubber stamp hitting a wooden desk.

SPEAKER_01 0:43

Right. It's two human beings sitting across from each other in a quiet room, uh, looking each other in the eye.

SPEAKER_00 0:49

Exactly. And verifying that a vital legal promise is being made. I mean, for centuries, that tactile ritual has just been the bedrock of trust in our legal system.

SPEAKER_01 0:59

Aaron Powell It really is an incredibly physical tradition. You hand over your physical driver's license, the public official looks at the plastic, you know, feels the edges.

SPEAKER_00 1:07

Checks the holograms.

SPEAKER_01 1:08

Yeah, looks up at your face, and then physically stamps a bound book. That's the mental image we all have.

SPEAKER_00 1:12

Aaron Powell But then you step into the world of modern digital transactions and suddenly uh that solid oak desk just vanishes.

SPEAKER_01 1:19

Completely disappears.

SPEAKER_00 1:20

We're looking at a completely different landscape now. A world of high-definition webcams, complex cryptographic algorithms, and well, identity verification protocols that honestly feel like they belong in a futuristic science fiction thriller rather than a neighborhood law office. Welcome to Notary Knowledge. Today we're exploring what happens when a centuries-old profession violently collides with the digital age.

SPEAKER_01 1:45

And it really is a collision.

SPEAKER_00 1:47

It is. The core mission of this role has always been to serve as an impartial witness to prevent fraud. But, you know, for our entry-level listeners out there, how do you accomplish that when the person signing the life-altering document isn't sitting across from you, but is sitting thousands of miles away?

SPEAKER_01 2:03

That's the central question, reshaping the entire legal framework of the United States right now. It forces us to redefine what uh what presence actually means under the law.

SPEAKER_00 2:12

Right. But before we really get moving, we need to establish a very strict geographic boundary for our conversation today. We are adopting a firm no CA perspective.

SPEAKER_01 2:22

Which is very important to clarify early on.

SPEAKER_00 2:24

Yes. By that I mean no California. While 49 states have adopted permanent legal forms of remote online notarization or in-person electronic notarization, California remains a very notable glaring holdout.

SPEAKER_01 2:42

They really are.

SPEAKER_00 2:42

The California Secretary of State simply does not currently authorize its commissioned officials to perform remote online notarizations.

SPEAKER_01 2:50

And that's a crucial parameter for anyone listening. If you're physically sitting in Los Angeles or San Francisco hoping to set up a virtual remote practice under California state law, you just can't do it right now.

SPEAKER_00 3:01

The legislation just isn't there.

SPEAKER_01 3:03

Exactly. Now, a California resident can absolutely log online and use a remote official who is commissioned in another state like Nevada or Texas.

SPEAKER_00 3:11

We have to get a document signed.

SPEAKER_01 3:12

Yeah, provided the receiving agency on the other end accepts it. But the actual legal framework, the state guidelines, and the technological innovations we're exploring today apply to the national landscape strictly outside of California's borders.

SPEAKER_00 3:25

Gotcha. Now we've covered the traditional pen and paper process in prior shows. Yeah, the physical journals, the physical presence requirements.

SPEAKER_01 3:33

The basics.

SPEAKER_00 3:33

Right. But today, we're leaving the paper behind entirely. We're going to look at the true hidden costs of digital transactions, the complex multifactor technology used to verify someone's identity through a glass screen, and um a truly bizarre legal paradox involving your face, your voice, and state privacy laws.

SPEAKER_01 3:56

It's a massive shift in how we handle trust.

SPEAKER_00 3:59

It really is. Before we jump into that, I want to quickly remind you to enhance your foundational skills by purchasing the Notary Knowledge Books by Derek Sproul.

SPEAKER_01 4:07

Highly recommend them.

SPEAKER_00 4:08

And definitely visit the Notary Knowledge website. Also, please take a second to rate the show, subscribe, and share this podcast with others. It really helps us out.

SPEAKER_01 4:15

It does. But you know, the shift to digital is massive, but interestingly enough, the transition doesn't start with the technology itself.

SPEAKER_00 4:22

But really? Where does it start?

SPEAKER_01 4:23

It starts with the economics. Before anyone can start authenticating signatures over a webcam, we have to talk about how the state allows you to bill for that service.

SPEAKER_00 4:33

Oh, right. That leads us directly into our foundational Friday's focus, which is fee structures and state caps.

SPEAKER_01 4:40

Let's get into it.

SPEAKER_00 4:41

I have a philosophical question to start us off here. Why do state governments cap these fees at all? That's a fair question. Think about it. If I run a plumbing business, you know, the state doesn't mandate what I can charge to fix a leaky sink. If I'm an accountant, the state doesn't cap my hourly rate for filing taxes. Why is this specific profession so aggressively and strictly price controlled?

SPEAKER_01 5:05

Well, um, it fundamentally comes down to the nature of the service being provided. You aren't just running a private business, you are operating as a public official commissioned by the state itself.

SPEAKER_00 5:15

Okay, so you're representing the state.

SPEAKER_01 5:16

Exactly. You're performing a mandatory legal service. If an everyday citizen is buying a modest home or granting a medical power of attorney for a sick relative, the law literally requires them to get those documents authenticated for them to be legally binding.

SPEAKER_00 5:30

They don't have a choice.

SPEAKER_01 5:32

Right. Because the state mandates the service, the state caps the fees to protect the consumer from price gouging. It's a safeguard to ensure that every single citizen has affordable access to the legal system, regardless of their financial status.

SPEAKER_00 5:46

Okay, that makes perfect logical sense for a paper transaction. You buy a rubber stamp once for 20 bucks, you buy a paper journal for 15 bucks, and your ongoing overhead is basically zero.

SPEAKER_01 5:56

Very low overhead, yes.

SPEAKER_00 5:58

You can afford to charge five or ten dollars the signature because your margins are purely based on your time. But remote online notarization, which the industry calls R on, introduces a massive new mountain of overhead.

SPEAKER_01 6:11

It really does. It's a whole different ballgame.

SPEAKER_00 6:13

You're paying monthly subscription fees for secure video hosting, you're paying per transaction fees for identity proofing software, you're buying digital certificates, electronic seals. I mean, none of this is cheap.

SPEAKER_01 6:24

No, it adds up fast.

SPEAKER_00 6:26

So how on earth do the states reconcile those consumer protection caps with the real-world technology costs the professional is carrying?

SPEAKER_01 6:34

Well, the reconciliation process is where the state-by-state laws start to vary wildly. You really have to know exactly what your specific commissioning state allows because they all view this technological overhead differently. Sure. Texas is a great example of state that recognizes the technological burden and has adjusted its fee structure to keep the system viable.

SPEAKER_00 6:57

Okay, so what do they do?

SPEAKER_01 6:58

Under their administrative code, an online official can charge up to $25 for the online act itself. And the key phrasing there is that this fee is in addition to the regular traditional fees.

SPEAKER_00 7:09

Ah, okay. Let's break down the exact math on that, because reading state statutes can get slightly complicated when you start stacking fees. Definitely. Let's say I'm operating remotely in Texas. The traditional fee for taking an acknowledgement is $10 for the first signature. So if I'm authenticating a document for one single person online, what is the total out the door cost?

SPEAKER_01 7:31

The total would be $35. You take the $25 online technology fee, you add the $10 traditional acknowledgement fee, and you arrive at a total of $35.

SPEAKER_00 7:42

Okay, so $35. That's a clean calculation for a single signer. Right. Okay, that's complicated. What if it's a married couple sitting next to each other on the webcam?

SPEAKER_01 7:51

Okay.

SPEAKER_00 7:52

There are two people on the screen, but they are signing the exact same real estate document, and their names are being placed on the exact same legal certificate at the bottom of the page. Do I charge that $25 tech fee twice?

SPEAKER_01 8:07

You do not.

SPEAKER_00 8:08

Really?

SPEAKER_01 8:08

Yeah, in that specific scenario, the traditional fee in Texas is $10 for the first signature plus $1 for each additional signature on the same document. Okay. So you have the flat $25 online fee plus the $10 for signature fee plus the $1 second signature fee. The total allowed charge capped by the state is $36.

SPEAKER_00 8:30

$36? That's a crucial distinction. You don't get to double dip the $25 tech fee just because two faces are visible on the secure video feed.

SPEAKER_01 8:40

Precisely. Because you are performing a single online act that results in a single completed certificate. The technology overhead was only initiated once.

SPEAKER_00 8:49

That makes sense.

SPEAKER_01 8:50

However, let's pivot the scenario. Let's say those same two people on the webcam are signing two completely different, unrelated documents, or their transaction requires two completely separate certificates to be filled out.

SPEAKER_00 9:05

Okay, so two separate acts.

SPEAKER_01 9:06

Exactly. In that case, you are performing two distinct separate online acts. You would charge $25 plus $10 for the first certificate and another $25 plus $10 for the second certificate.

SPEAKER_00 9:17

Which brings the total charge up to $70. Correct. That actually feels like a very balanced, logical way to handle the overhead. It protects the consumer from being arbitrarily gouged, but it ensures the professional isn't losing money on software fees just to perform their public duty.

SPEAKER_01 9:34

It works well in Texas, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 9:35

But I imagine not every state legislature is as accommodating as Texas when it comes to updating their laws.

SPEAKER_01 9:42

Oh, far from it. Pennsylvania offers a brilliant contrast.

SPEAKER_00 9:45

Uh-oh. What does Pennsylvania do?

SPEAKER_01 9:47

Pennsylvania takes a completely different philosophical approach to the digital transition. Under their Department of State guidelines, the fees established for the service remain exactly the same, regardless of whether the service is performed in the traditional pen and paper manner or using advanced electronic and remote technology.

SPEAKER_00 10:06

Wait, really? So the professional just absorbs the entire cost of the RN software platform. The state doesn't grant any tech allowance at all.

SPEAKER_01 10:14

Essentially, yes. Wow. The state dictates that the fee for the legal act is fixed, viewing the technology simply as a tool of convenience for the professional, not a separate billable service.

SPEAKER_00 10:25

That is wild.

SPEAKER_01 10:26

Now a professional in Pennsylvania is permitted to charge reasonable clerical or administrative fees for services provided in addition to the actual act itself, like um document preparation or specialized routing.

SPEAKER_00 10:38

Okay, so there's a little wiggle room.

SPEAKER_01 10:40

A little, but the actual statutory fee cap does not magically increase just because you fired up a webcam and pinged a cryptographic database.

SPEAKER_00 10:48

That is a stark contrast and a tough pill to swallow for someone trying to run a modern digital business there. What about a state like North Carolina? Where do they fall on this spectrum?

SPEAKER_01 10:59

Aaron Powell North Carolina is even stricter, actually. They maintain a very tight grip on consumer costs.

SPEAKER_00 11:04

How tight are we talking?

SPEAKER_01 11:05

They cap the fee firmly at $5 per signature, period.

SPEAKER_00 11:10

$5.

SPEAKER_01 11:11

Furthermore, the North Carolina guidelines explicitly and aggressively state that these officials are not authorized to charge travel or mileage expenses to their clients. You must strictly adhere to that $5 per signature limit.

SPEAKER_00 11:24

So you can't even try to bundle fees.

SPEAKER_01 11:25

Exactly. Any attempt to disguise higher fees, perhaps by calling them uh technology convenience fees or digital travel fees, could easily be interpreted as the unauthorized practice of law or a direct violation of their statutory guidelines.

SPEAKER_00 11:40

That really drives home how vital it is to actually read and understand your specific state's administrative code. You can't just guess what's fair, and you certainly can't apply Texas logic to a North Carolina transaction.

SPEAKER_01 11:54

You'll get yourself into serious trouble if you do.

SPEAKER_00 11:56

And speaking of strict administrative codes, Illinois has some very specific, rigid rules about how you actually write these fees down in your records, don't they?

SPEAKER_01 12:06

They do, and it highlights how serious the state is about transparency. In Illinois, you are legally required to maintain a detailed journal of every transaction, and the exact fee charged must be meticulously logged in that journal.

SPEAKER_00 12:19

Okay. That sounds pretty standard.

SPEAKER_01 12:20

It is, but here is the critical vulnerability many people miss. What if you do a favor for a close friend or you're performing a service for a charity and you decide not to charge a fee at all? Oh, interesting. You can't just leave the fee column blank on the page or on the screen.

SPEAKER_00 12:36

Aaron Powell Because a blank space in any legal record is a massive security vulnerability. Right. Someone could easily come back later, write a number in that blank space, and suddenly the record reflects a transaction that never actually occurred.

SPEAKER_01 12:49

That's the exact threat vector Illinois is trying to close. If the fee is waived or simply not charged, the Illinois administrative rules require you to explicitly record that fact using a specific, undeniable notation.

SPEAKER_00 13:03

Like what?

SPEAKER_01 13:04

You have to write a zero, a dash, or the letters NC to indicate no charge.

SPEAKER_00 13:10

Wow, they don't mess around.

SPEAKER_01 13:11

No, they don't. Furthermore, if you do charge any of those clerical or administrative fees we talked about earlier, Illinois requires that they be itemized completely separately in the journal from the actual statutory fee.

SPEAKER_00 13:23

Got it. Everything must be transparent, clearly delineated, and unalterable.

SPEAKER_01 13:27

Precisely. It's all about creating an unassailable paper trail, even when the paper is entirely digital.

SPEAKER_00 13:33

Commercial break placeholder. Okay, so now that we understand the financial realities and the strip compliance required just to set your prices, we need to demystify how this remote technology actually functions. How do you legally and securely witness a signature from across the globe?

SPEAKER_01 13:49

Well, to understand the mechanics of remote online notarization, you first have to understand the fundamental geographic rule that governs the entire system. It's the anchor point for every piece of technology we're going to discuss.

SPEAKER_00 14:02

Let's lay that anchor down. What's the rule?

SPEAKER_01 14:04

The rule is jurisdictional presence. The public official must be physically located within the legal boundaries of their commissioning state at the exact moment the act takes place.

SPEAKER_00 14:14

Okay.

SPEAKER_01 14:14

The signer, however, can be almost anywhere in the world.

SPEAKER_00 14:17

So if I'm commissioned in Indiana, I can be sitting at my kitchen table in Indianapolis, and the person signing the real estate deed can be sitting in a busy coffee shop in Paris, France.

SPEAKER_01 14:27

Aaron Ross Powell That's exactly how it works. The jurisdiction, the legal authority granted to you, travels with you, but only within the borders of your specific state.

SPEAKER_00 14:35

Because I represent Indiana.

SPEAKER_01 14:37

Right. You are representing the sovereign authority of Indiana. If you take your laptop, drive across the border into Ohio, check into a hotel room, and try to perform a remote transaction from there, that entire act is legally invalid.

SPEAKER_00 14:52

Because my authority stops at the state line.

SPEAKER_01 14:54

Exactly. You left your physical jurisdiction. Your authority doesn't exist in Ohio. But the signer's location is highly flexible because they aren't the one projecting state authority. They are just the one submitting to it.

SPEAKER_00 15:08

I love that visual. The professional is the anchor hammered into the ground of their home state, and the signer is the kite flying wherever the wind takes them.

SPEAKER_01 15:16

That's a great way to put it.

SPEAKER_00 15:17

But let's extrapolate on that Paris example for a moment. If the signer is physically outside the borders of the United States, are there extra layers of rules? Like, can I just log on and authenticate a French real estate contract for a French citizen who has never set foot in America?

SPEAKER_01 15:33

No, you absolutely cannot.

SPEAKER_00 15:34

I figured.

SPEAKER_01 15:35

Yeah, when the signer is located outside the geographic boundaries of the United States, there are very specific, stringent legal tests that must be met to prevent international jurisdictional conflicts.

SPEAKER_00 15:46

Okay, what are its tests?

SPEAKER_01 15:47

First, the document usually must involve a transaction that is substantially connected to the United States.

SPEAKER_00 15:53

What does that look like in practice?

SPEAKER_01 15:54

For example, the document needs to be filed with a U.S. court, or it involves property physically located within the U.S. Think of an American citizen selling their house in Florida while they happen to be vacationing in Paris.

SPEAKER_00 16:07

That makes perfect sense. The transaction has to have deep roots in American soil for an American official to involve themselves.

SPEAKER_01 16:14

Exactly. And the second test is just as crucial. The act of making the statement or signing the record must not be explicitly prohibited by the foreign country where the signer is physically sitting.

SPEAKER_00 16:26

Oh, I see.

SPEAKER_01 16:26

You cannot use American ROM laws as a technological loophole to bypass or break the local laws of a foreign sovereign nation. If France says a specific type of digital signature is illegal on their soil, you can't facilitate it just because your server is in Indiana.

SPEAKER_00 16:42

Okay, the geographic boundaries are firmly set. Yeah. Now let's talk about the actual tech stack. Because I can't just fire up a casual FaceTime call on my iPhone or start a generic Zoom meeting and call it a legally binding session, right?

SPEAKER_01 16:55

Absolutely not. Consumer grade video chat is nowhere near secure enough for this. The session must take place on a state-approved, highly secure platform. These platforms generally have to meet rigorous standards set by industry organizations like MISMO, which is the mortgage industry standards maintenance organization.

SPEAKER_00 17:13

Okay, MISMO.

SPEAKER_01 17:14

You'll hear names of approved platforms like Proof or Secured Signing. The platform has to provide a secure, interactive, real-time audiovisual feed. It must be a closed cryptographic circuit where the official and the signer are viewing each other directly in real time.

SPEAKER_00 17:31

And it can't be hacked easily.

SPEAKER_01 17:32

Right. The session cannot be viewed, altered, or intercepted by an unauthorized third party.

SPEAKER_00 17:38

So the encrypted video connection is our virtual room. Once we are securely inside that room and the signer clicks the sign button on the PBF, how do I apply my seal?

SPEAKER_01 17:47

Good question.

SPEAKER_00 17:48

Because in the physical world, I literally press an inked rubber stamp onto the paper. It leaves a physical impression that bleeds into the paper fibers, making it incredibly hard to forge or lift off. How do we replicate that intense physical security in a weightless digital file?

SPEAKER_01 18:02

We replicate it using advanced cryptography, specifically something called a digital certificate and an electronic seal.

SPEAKER_00 18:09

Okay, a digital certificate. I always like to think of the digital certificate as a high-tech version of a medieval wax seal.

SPEAKER_01 18:16

Okay, I like where this is going.

SPEAKER_00 18:18

Back in the day, a king would drip boiling hot wax onto a rolled parchment scroll and firmly press his unique engraved signet ring into it. If anyone tried to secretly open the scroll to read it, or alter the parchment in transit, the fragile wax seal would shatter. It was inherently tamper evident.

SPEAKER_01 18:36

That's a brilliant way to conceptualize it, and it perfectly describes what the cryptographic math is doing behind the scenes.

SPEAKER_00 18:42

Oh, awesome.

SPEAKER_01 18:43

When a remote official is approved by their state, they must obtain a digital certificate, usually one that is compliant with the strict X.509 standard. Yes. And this certificate isn't something you just download for free. It is issued by a trusted, highly vetted third-party provider who verifies your identity first. It contains a cryptographic private key that is uniquely and permanently linked to you.

SPEAKER_00 19:08

So it literally functions as my digital signet ring.

SPEAKER_01 19:10

It does. When you finish the remote session, the software takes over. It uses your unique private key to bind your electronic signature and your visual electronic seal directly into the foundational code of the PDF document. Okay. This process creates a cryptographic hash. Think of a hash as a wildly complex, unique string of numbers and letters that represents the exact pixel by pixel state of that document at that exact millisecond in time.

SPEAKER_00 19:37

And here is the truly magical part of the math. If someone takes that PDF a week later and tries to change a single digit on a mortgage interest rate or tries to alter a middle initial to steal an inheritance, what happens to that file?

SPEAKER_01 19:51

The hash is instantly broken.

SPEAKER_00 19:53

The seal shatters.

SPEAKER_01 19:54

Exactly. The mathematical equation no longer balances. The document immediately renders as tamper evident. Anyone who opens that altered PDF in a standard reader like Adobe Acrobat won't just see the document.

SPEAKER_00 20:05

What will they see?

SPEAKER_01 20:05

They will see a massive glaring red warning banner stating that the document has been altered or corrupted since the digital signature was applied. It is completely undeniable. You simply cannot sneak a text change past an X.509 digital certificate without shattering the digital wax seal.

SPEAKER_00 20:25

When you explain it like that, it's honestly significantly more secure than physical paper.

SPEAKER_01 20:30

It really is.

SPEAKER_00 20:31

If you're sneaky enough, you can physically unstaple a paper contract, swap out page three with altered terms, and restaple it. It happens all the time in fraud cases.

SPEAKER_01 20:40

Oh, constantly.

SPEAKER_00 20:41

But you cannot swap out a single bite of data in a cryptographically sealed PDF without setting off the digital alarms for everyone to see.

SPEAKER_01 20:49

Which is exactly why the states require you to keep these digital certificates highly, highly secure. You must maintain exclusive control over your private key, usually implemented by strict passphrase protection or even hardware tokens.

SPEAKER_00 21:01

Right, you can't leave it lying around.

SPEAKER_01 21:03

You can't share it with an assistant. And it's also why they expire. If your digital certificate expires, or if your legal name changes, or your state commission number changes, you have to revoke the old one entirely and go through the vetting process to get a completely new certificate issued. You cannot stamp a legal document with an expired digital signet ring.

SPEAKER_00 21:23

Commercial break placeholder. This technology is undeniably incredible. It solves the tampering problem perfectly. Right. But um, it relies on one massive, glaring assumption. Which is it assumes that the person sitting on the other side of the webcam is actually who they claim to be.

SPEAKER_01 21:40

Ah, yes. The human element.

SPEAKER_00 21:42

Right. If our signer is sitting in that coffee shop in Paris and I am sitting in Indianapolis, how do I know they aren't a highly convincing imposter holding an incredibly well made fake ID? We have to unpack the intense, multifactor world of digital identity proofing.

SPEAKER_01 21:57

In traditional paper transactions, you generally rely on two. Very human methods of identification. The first is personal knowledge. You know, you simply know the person sitting across from you because they are your neighbor, your coworker, or a longtime client. Sure. The second is satisfactory evidence, which usually means a physical ID card handed to you so you can feel the holograms, or the sworn oath of a credible witness who personally knows both you and the signer.

SPEAKER_00 22:23

But the moment you move to a webcam, the risk of an imposter goes through the roof. A standard driver's license simply held up to a camera lens is inherently insecure.

SPEAKER_01 22:33

Oh, incredibly insecure.

SPEAKER_00 22:35

A decent graphic designer with a good printer could create a fake ID that looks absolutely perfect on a compressed, slightly grainy internet video feed. Our human eyes aren't built to catch high-level forgery through a 1080p stream.

SPEAKER_01 22:48

The states recognize that massive security vulnerability immediately. Because human vision is so easily tricked over video, state laws mandate a rigorous, inflexible, three-step authentication process for remote online transactions.

SPEAKER_00 23:03

You can't just flash a passport at the camera and start signing away your assets.

SPEAKER_01 23:06

Not at all.

SPEAKER_00 23:07

Let's walk through those three steps in detail. Step one is the closest to the traditional method, remote ID presentation.

SPEAKER_01 23:13

Right. During the live secure video feed, the signer must physically hold their government-issued ID up to the webcam. The official visually inspects it, doing the baseline human check.

SPEAKER_00 23:25

Just making sure the basics align.

SPEAKER_01 23:27

Exactly. They are making sure the face on the ID matches the living face on the screen, and that the name on the ID perfectly matches the name typed on the document. But as we established, human eyes over a webcam are completely insufficient. This is just the baseline visual confirmation to ensure we are starting with the right person.

SPEAKER_00 23:46

Which immediately brings us to step two, credential analysis. This is where the heavy computational listing happens, stepping far beyond human capability. Before or during the session, the signer is required to use their smartphone or high-definition webcam to take extremely high-resolution images of both the front and the back of their ID card and upload those raw image files directly to the platform.

SPEAKER_01 24:08

And this is where the third-party algorithms take over the investigation. The human eye cannot see microprinting over a video feed. The human eye certainly cannot verify the encrypted data hidden inside the 2D barcode on the back of a modern driver's license.

SPEAKER_00 24:22

But the software can.

SPEAKER_01 24:24

But the software can, and it does it in seconds. The credential analysis algorithms scan the uploaded high-res images, forensically checking for hundreds of specific security features. Like what? They analyze holographic reflections, font weight consistencies, edge clipping, and barcode beta integrity. The system instantly cross-references the ID's formatting against massive, constantly updated databases of known, valid government credentials. If a counterfeiter used slightly the wrong font weight for the expiration date, or if the barcode data doesn't perfectly match the printed text on the front, the algorithm flags it immediately and fails the ID.

SPEAKER_00 25:02

The forensic rigor is amazing. But um, let's play devil's advocate for a second.

SPEAKER_01 25:06

Let's do it.

SPEAKER_00 25:07

Even a perfectly valid, government-issued, completely real driver's license could be stolen. What if a thief steals my physical wallet out of my car, sits in front of a webcam, and happens to look vaguely enough like my photo to pass the quick visual check?

SPEAKER_01 25:22

It happens.

SPEAKER_00 25:23

The visual check passes, the credential analysis passes because the physical ID is genuinely real. How does the system catch the thief who has my actual wallet?

SPEAKER_01 25:32

That terrifying scenario brings us to the ultimate defense mechanism. Step three, knowledge-based authentication, commonly referred to as KBA. Specifically, the platforms use dynamic KBA.

SPEAKER_00 25:44

Ah, KBA. This is the part of the process that trips a lot of honest people up because it feels so deeply invasive. Explain how dynamic KBA stops the thief with the stolen wallet.

SPEAKER_01 25:54

The RN platform securely pings massive third-party identity databases like credit bureaus, public property records, deep financial histories, and it instantly generates a multiple choice quiz about the signer's deep personal life history. Oh wow. These are questions a thief who merely possesses your plastic ID card wouldn't possibly know.

SPEAKER_00 26:12

For example, the screen might suddenly ask, which of the following four addresses did you live at in the summer of 2018? Or what was the approximate monthly balance of your auto loan with Chase Bank in May of last year?

SPEAKER_01 26:25

Exactly. Or even trick questions like, which of the following four vehicles have you never registered in your name?

SPEAKER_00 26:31

Yes, the never questions are particularly effective. And the states set incredibly strict parameters on how this test is administered to ensure it cannot be easily guessed or researched on the fly by a fraudster sitting at a dual monitor setup.

SPEAKER_01 26:46

They do. Let's look at a prime illustrative example to see how intense this gets. The state of Utah. Utah has very specific administrative rules governing the KBA process.

SPEAKER_00 26:55

I love diving into the specific metrics of these laws. What are Utah's rules for passing the quiz?

SPEAKER_01 27:00

In Utah, the system must generate exactly five questions. Each question must have at least five possible answers to choose from, making random, blind guessing, mathematically improbable.

SPEAKER_00 27:09

Okay, so five questions, five answers each.

SPEAKER_01 27:11

Right. The signer must answer a minimum of four out of the five questions correctly. That's an 80% passing grade. And here is the absolute kicker. They must achieve that passing grade in under two minutes.

SPEAKER_00 27:24

Two minutes. That is deliberately, intensely stressful. It leaves absolutely no time for an imposter to open a new browser tab and try to frantically Google the victim's public property records or try to search through their stolen email account for old loan balances.

SPEAKER_01 27:41

None at all.

SPEAKER_00 27:42

You either know it instantly from your own lived personal experience or you run out of time and fail.

SPEAKER_01 27:47

That's the entire psychological design of the time limit. Now, what happens if the true honest signer just gets flustered by the ticking clock and fails?

SPEAKER_00 27:55

Yeah, what happens then?

SPEAKER_01 27:56

Utah allows the signer two retakes within a 48-hour window, but the system is intelligently designed to prevent trial and error guessing. On the retake, the algorithm is legally required to replace at least two of the five questions with entirely new, completely different questions.

SPEAKER_00 28:12

So you can't just memorize the answers you got wrong.

SPEAKER_01 28:15

Exactly. If you fail the second retake, you are hard-locked out of the system, and the official must refuse to perform the remote transaction entirely.

SPEAKER_00 28:23

It's a phenomenal digital fortress. It really is. Commercial break placeholder.

SPEAKER_01 28:27

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 28:27

But listening to this entire sequence, a massive glaring issue comes to mind.

SPEAKER_01 28:32

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 28:32

We are talking about algorithms, forensic scanning, high-resolution images of government IDs. We are talking about deep dive quizzes into a person's private credit and financial history. We are talking about recording a live, high-definition video of a person's face and voice inside their private home.

SPEAKER_01 28:51

You're seeing the collision course.

SPEAKER_00 28:53

I am. We are collecting an absolute mountain of incredibly sensitive, deeply intimate biometric and financial data just to prove a person's identity for a signature. Which brings us to a massive legal and ethical quagmire. We have to examine the privacy paradox, specifically, how state laws manage journals versus recordings.

SPEAKER_01 29:12

This is a huge topic. Collecting all of this intimate data creates a massive privacy liability for the professional hosting the session. Remember, traditional journals are often considered public records. In many jurisdictions, any member of the public can walk in and request to inspect your logbook. Because of this historical public access, states have had to enact aggressive, highly specific privacy laws dictating exactly what you can and cannot write down in your modern electronic journals.

SPEAKER_00 29:41

It's completely different from the old days where a professional might just jot down everything they saw to be thorough.

SPEAKER_01 29:47

Completely different.

SPEAKER_00 29:48

Let's list some of these absolute statutory prohibitions. If you are operating in Texas, Illinois, or Montana, you are explicitly legally banned from recording government-assigned identification numbers.

SPEAKER_01 30:01

Which means no social security numbers.

SPEAKER_00 30:04

Right. You cannot write down a signer's social security number. You cannot write down their driver's license number or their passport number. It is forbidden.

SPEAKER_01 30:11

Montana's guidelines explicitly prohibit recording birth dates as well. Illinois takes it even further in their administrative code. You cannot record a first name and last name linked to financial account information if that data is unencrypted. The overarching goal of all these bans is to prevent catastrophic identity theft. If an electronic journal is hacked, lost, stolen, or legally subpoenaed by the public, it shouldn't serve as a fully indexed treasure map for identity thieves.

SPEAKER_00 30:39

That makes sense. Some states have recognized the danger and gone a step further to protect the concept of the journal itself. Arizona is a prime example of this.

SPEAKER_01 30:48

Arizona is fascinating in its approach. Arizona actually authorizes its officials to keep a completely separate, highly confidential journal specifically for acts that are not considered public records. Like what? If a transaction involves sensitive attorney client privilege or confidential federal data, the entry goes into this secure non-public journal, which is considered the strict property of the employer and kept entirely confidential from public records requests.

SPEAKER_00 31:14

And Iowa has enacted laws explicitly prohibiting the professional from selling, offering for sale, or transferring the personally identifiable information collected during a transaction. You cannot legally monetize your journal data or sell it to data brokers.

SPEAKER_01 31:28

It all sounds very secure, very well regulated, and very protective of the consumer. But here is where the legal framework entirely spectacularly contradicts itself.

SPEAKER_00 31:38

Oh boy.

SPEAKER_01 31:39

This is the massive legal conflict we call the biometrics paradox.

SPEAKER_00 31:43

Okay, I'm gonna push back hard on the protective laws we just discussed because the logic falls apart when you look at the whole picture. In states like Texas and Illinois, the administrative codes explicitly prohibit recording biometric identifiers in the journal.

SPEAKER_01 31:58

Right.

SPEAKER_00 31:59

The laws specifically clearly list fingerprints, retina images, facial geometry, and voice prints. You cannot record them. Full stop.

SPEAKER_01 32:07

That is exactly what the privacy statutes say.

SPEAKER_00 32:09

But wait. In order to perform a remote online notarization in those exact same states, the fraud prevention laws mandate that you must create and retain an audiovisual recording of the entire remote session. And you have to keep that video file safely stored on a server for five to ten years.

SPEAKER_01 32:26

Yes, the retention laws are very strict about keeping that video.

SPEAKER_00 32:30

But if I am recording a high-definition video of your face and a high fidelity audio recording of your voice, I am inherently capturing your facial geometry and your voice print. An audiovisual recording is, by definition, a biometric capture.

SPEAKER_01 32:46

It absolutely is.

SPEAKER_00 32:47

So how can the laws strictly forbid capturing biometrics to protect privacy, but simultaneously mandate recording of video to prevent fraud? It makes no sense.

SPEAKER_01 32:56

It's a stunning legal contradiction. It happens because technology moves exponentially faster than legislative committees can draft bills. Classic. The lawmakers drafting the journal privacy rules are fiercely trying to stop identity theft and protect civil liberties. The lawmakers drafting the ARN fraud prevention rules are fiercely trying to create an unassailable digital paper trail to protect the real estate and banking sectors. Right. They pass both requirements independently without fully realizing they were commanding the professional to do two mutually exclusive things at the exact same time.

SPEAKER_00 33:30

So how do states handle this paradox once they realize they've legislated themselves into a corner?

SPEAKER_01 33:35

They handle it in very different ways, which really highlights the chaos of state-by-state regulation in the digital age. Indiana recognized this exact paradox and had to write a patch.

SPEAKER_00 33:46

What did Indiana do?

SPEAKER_01 33:47

Their administrative code, specifically 75 IAC 76-1, lists the total prohibition against entering biometric identifiers in the electronic journal. But then, right below it in the next subsection, they wrote an explicit, blatant exemption. Yeah, they say it literally says this section does not apply to the audio-visual recording required by a remote notary public performing a remote notarial act.

SPEAKER_00 34:13

So Indiana just openly admits the contradiction and writes a legal loophole so the professional doesn't get sued for doing their job.

SPEAKER_01 34:20

That's essentially it. Indiana patched the bug in the legal code, but contrast that pragmatic approach with Wisconsin.

SPEAKER_00 34:26

What did Wisconsin do?

SPEAKER_01 34:28

The Wisconsin Department of Financial Institutions and the Remote Notary Council looked at biometric identity proofing, looked at the privacy implications, and completely rejected the technology.

SPEAKER_00 34:38

Wait, completely.

SPEAKER_01 34:39

Yes. Their guidelines explicitly exclude biometric identity proofing from their approved methods, citing a severe lack of maturity in the technology, a lack of universal security standards, and insufficient administrative safeguards to protect consumer privacy.

SPEAKER_00 34:54

Wisconsin essentially looked at the tech and said, this is too radioactive, we aren't touching it until the privacy laws catch up.

SPEAKER_01 35:00

Precisely. Ah yes. Deepfakes.

SPEAKER_00 35:22

AI-generated video and audio that can mimic a real living person in real time over a webcam.

SPEAKER_01 35:28

Deepfakes are the absolute nightmare scenario for digital transactions and the legal system as a whole. A sophisticated neural network can map a person's facial geometry from public social media photos and overlay it onto a fraudster sitting in a basement mimicking their voice in real time on a secure video feed.

SPEAKER_00 35:45

It's terrifying. But this terrifying reality is exactly why the rigid multifactor process we discussed earlier is so vital. A deepfake might easily fool the human eyes looking at the video feed. But a deepfake cannot magically alter the encrypted barcode data on the back of a stolen driver's license during the credential analysis phase.

SPEAKER_03 36:03

Exactly.

SPEAKER_00 36:04

And a deepfake algorithm cannot magically answer dynamic KBA questions about a 15-year-old auto loan in under two minutes. The combination of the AV recording acting as a psychological deterrent, plus the deep data multi-factor ID steps, serves as the ultimate layered defense against AI-generated fraud.

SPEAKER_01 36:24

It is a defense in depth. No single layer, not the video, not the ID scan, not the quiz is perfect on its own, but bound together, they create a formidable digital fortress.

SPEAKER_00 36:34

Commercial brick placeholder.

SPEAKER_01 36:48

This is where the rubber meets the road. We are looking at real-world scenarios pulled directly from the National Notary Association forms and guidelines.

SPEAKER_00 36:56

Real people, real problems.

SPEAKER_01 36:57

Exactly. These are actual difficult situations people have faced, highlighting how incredibly easy it is to accidentally cross a legal or ethical line when you're under pressure.

SPEAKER_00 37:08

Let's start with scenario one. This comes from Sherry in Ohio. It's a classic high-pressure case of employer overreach. Sherry writes that her employer is demanding that she make photocopies of all the identification cards and the actual private documents she notarizes for clients at the office and file them away in the company cabinets. What should Sherry do?

SPEAKER_01 37:29

The National Notary Association gives a categorical absolute no to this demand. Making or demanding photocopies of a signer's private legal documents or their government ID cards is a severe, unacceptable intrusion of privacy.

SPEAKER_00 37:43

I can see the employer's corporate logic, though.

SPEAKER_01 37:44

Oh, sure.

SPEAKER_00 37:45

The employer probably thinks, we want to be thorough. If this company ever gets sued over a transaction, we want hard proof in our files that our employee checked the ID and saw the document. It's purely defensive risk management.

SPEAKER_01 37:57

The intention might be defensive corporate risk management, but the action is illegal and highly unethical. Right. The professional is a public officer commissioned independently by the state. They are not a private risk management tool for their boss's company. The official should only keep the specific, limited details required by state law for their journal entry, nothing more.

SPEAKER_00 38:19

So no filing cabinets full of IDs.

SPEAKER_01 38:21

Definitely not. Keeping a company file cabinet full of photocopied driver's licenses and private legal contracts creates a massive, unregulated repository of personally identifiable information. It's a catastrophic data breach just waiting to happen.

SPEAKER_00 38:35

So what does Sherry say?

SPEAKER_01 38:36

Sherry must refuse her employer's demand, stand her ground, and explain that her state commission legally requires her to protect the signer's privacy above company policy.

SPEAKER_00 38:46

Excellent advice and a tough conversation for Sherry to have. Let's move to scenario two. This is from Andrew in Illinois, and we'll call this the Safone Attorney.

SPEAKER_01 38:55

Okay, let's hear it.

SPEAKER_00 38:56

Andrew was signing some legal documents, and the attorney handling the transaction, who also happened to hold a commission, took out his personal cell phone and took high-resolution photographs of Andrew's Illinois State ID card. Oh no. When Andrew rightly objected, the attorney confidently claimed it was necessary to comply with Illinois law. Break this incredible overstep down for us.

SPEAKER_01 39:20

This attorney is completely dangerously wrong on the law. First of all, we just discussed the Illinois Administrative Code in depth, specifically section 176.910. That code explicitly, undeniably, forbids recording identification numbers, like a driver's license number or biometric data in a journal.

SPEAKER_00 39:39

And a high-resolution photo taken on a modern smartphone captures both the ID number printed on the plastic and the biometric facial geometry of the signer's photograph.

SPEAKER_01 39:47

Exactly. By photographing the ID, the attorney is capturing the exact sensitive data the state of Illinois has legally banned him from recording. But it gets exponentially worse when you view it from a modern cybersecurity perspective. This incredibly sensitive data is now living unencrypted on a third party's personal cell phone.

SPEAKER_00 40:05

Which is probably backing up to the cloud.

SPEAKER_01 40:07

It is highly likely being automatically synced and backed up to a commercial cloud server like iCloud or Google Photos, over which the signer, Andrew, has zero control or visibility. The attorney has created a massive privacy violation and a severe security vulnerability under the false, arrogant guise of legal compliance.

SPEAKER_00 40:28

It's terrifying how easily someone in a position of power, like an attorney in a suit, can compel you to hand over your digital life with a confident but completely incorrect legal justification.

SPEAKER_01 40:38

Which is exactly why you, as an everyday consumer and as a professional, must actually know the rules yourself. You cannot rely on someone else's assumed authority.

SPEAKER_00 40:47

Let's hit our final scenario, scenario three. This comes from Keith, and it's about the withheld document. Keith just needed a simple, straightforward signature witnessed on a one-page form to claim some routine credits from a local co-op.

SPEAKER_01 40:59

Simple enough.

SPEAKER_00 41:00

He took it to an official he sees in his neighborhood once a week. The official refused to authenticate it on the spot. Instead, she demanded that Keith leave the private document with her for an entire week so she could quote read it over before she would witness his signature. Keith declined, took his paperwork, and went to a bank instead.

SPEAKER_01 41:20

Keith absolutely made the right call by walking away from that situation immediately.

SPEAKER_00 41:24

I want to push back on this a little though, just to explore the mindset. Sure. Isn't a public official supposed to know what they are putting their state seal on? If I am putting my official legally binding stamp on something, shouldn't I read the contract thoroughly to make sure it isn't illegal, fraudulent, or predatory? Absolutely not.

SPEAKER_01 41:44

That is a fundamental, dangerous misunderstanding of the role. You are an impartial witness to the identity and the volition of the signer. You are not a licensed lawyer, you are not a judge, and you are not a contract auditor.

SPEAKER_00 41:56

So I am solely authenticating the person, not endorsing the contents of the paper they are holding.

SPEAKER_01 42:01

Precisely. You only scan the document for two very specific, limited reasons. First, to ensure there are no glaring blank spaces that could be fraudulently filled in by a bad actor later. Right. Second, to identify the general type of document, like a warranty deed, a living will, or a power of attorney, so you can accurately log the transaction type in your journal.

SPEAKER_00 42:23

Okay, so just scanning for the title and blanks?

SPEAKER_01 42:26

Yes. Reading the deeply private details of a contract, analyzing the terms, or demanding to hold on to a private legal document for a week to read it over is a massive, unjustifiable privacy violation. It is completely outside the scope of the legal authority granted by the state.

SPEAKER_00 42:41

Aaron Powell It's almost an arrogant overstepping of boundaries, assuming you need to vet someone's private life. You are a witness to an act, not a gatekeeper to the contract's terms. Keith was 100% right to take his business elsewhere, to a professional who actually understood the limits of their role.

SPEAKER_01 42:58

These scenarios really highlight a profound truth. Whether you are using a wooden rubber stamp and an ink pad, or you are using a cryptographic digital certificate and a multi-factor algorithm, the core ethical duties of the profession remain exactly the same.

SPEAKER_00 43:14

Which are?

SPEAKER_01 43:15

You protect the integrity of the signature to prevent fraud, and you fiercely protect the privacy of the signer.

SPEAKER_00 43:21

It's an incredibly delicate balance to maintain. As we wrap up this extensive exploration of the digital landscape, I want to leave you with a final provocative thought to mull over.

SPEAKER_01 43:31

Let's hear it.

SPEAKER_00 43:32

We talked extensively about the digital fortress that Auron platforms use to stop deepfakes and imposters. We talked about credential analysis algorithms scrutinizing microprinting and dynamic knowledge based authentication tests with tight, stressful two minute timers.

SPEAKER_01 43:47

Right.

SPEAKER_00 43:47

As AI and deepfake technology become more advanced and accessible to criminals, these platforms are inevitably going to rely heavier and heavier on algorithmic ID checks and complex KBA quizzes to maintain security.

SPEAKER_01 44:00

That's the trend.

SPEAKER_00 44:01

But what happens when the digital defenses become so rigid, so technologically complex, and so mentally demanding that honest everyday signers can no longer pass the test to prove they are themselves?

SPEAKER_01 44:12

That's a real fear.

SPEAKER_00 44:13

What happens when a 70-year-old grandmother can't remember the exact monthly balance of a car loan she paid off 12 years ago in a different state? The two-minute timer runs out, and she gets permanently locked out of signing her own end-of-life healthcare directive. Wow. In our desperate rush to build an unhackable, mathematically perfect system to keep the criminals out, we have to ask ourselves are we building a system that accidentally, systematically locks the honest, vulnerable citizen out of their own legal identity?

SPEAKER_01 44:44

It's a profound, unsettling question about the fundamental tension between accessibility and security, and there is no easy technological answer to it yet.

SPEAKER_00 44:53

No, there isn't. If you have questions about everything we've covered today, or if you've run into your own bizarre, high-pressure scenarios in the field, we want to hear from you. Email your questions to Derek at DerekSprohl.com. We will try to answer as soon as possible at the end of our shows.

SPEAKER_01 45:10

Yes, send those in.

SPEAKER_00 45:12

And if you want to master both the physical and the complex digital realms of this profession, I highly encourage you to enhance your foundational skills by purchasing the Notary Knowledge Books by Derek Sproul and visiting the Notary Knowledge website.

SPEAKER_01 45:26

It's an incredible resource for anyone looking to build a rock solid understanding of these laws.

SPEAKER_00 45:32

And please take a moment to rate the show, subscribe, and share this exploration with others. It really helps us bring this vital information to more people.

SPEAKER_01 45:40

The landscape is changing fast, and staying educated is the only way to keep up.

SPEAKER_00 45:44

I want to give a massive thank you to our team, executive producer Derek Sprohl, lead writer Marilyn Lee Trotter, graphics by Eddie Montez Travis, music by Thomas Bynum. This show is produced by MagnificentWorks Business Solutions.

SPEAKER_01 45:57

Thanks, everyone.

SPEAKER_00 45:58

Remember, whether you are dealing with traditional paper and ink or secure webcams and cryptography, the responsibility remains exactly the same. Don't just be listeners of the knowledge, be doers of the knowledge. This is notary knowledge. Until next time.

SPEAKER_03 46:26

This essential guide provides the step-by-step process to becoming commissioned in your state. Don't stumble into the role. Walk into it with confidence. Grab your copy of the Notary Public Foundation by Derek Spruill on Amazon today.