Wet Signatures, Ron, and Notary Public Mistakes

Welcome to our latest episode where we explore the evolving world of notarization. Eddie Montes Travis and Marylyn Lee Trotter discuss the crucial differences between traditional and digital methods while identifying traps that can ruin a professional reputation. • Subject: Wet Signatures. The physical act of signing with ink remains the standard for many legal documents and requires specific physical presence. • Subject: Remote Online Notarization. Known as RON, this technology allows for secure virtual signings but comes with strict software and identity verification rules. • Subject: Frequent Mistakes. Even experienced professionals can fail by forgetting a venue, using the wrong date, or neglecting to check the expiration of an ID. • Subject: Maintaining Quality. Balancing the speed of digital tools with the accuracy of traditional paper methods is essential for any successful business. Whether you are a veteran or just starting your journey, understanding these technical nuances will help you stay compliant and professional. Make sure to subscribe and like the podcast to keep up with all our latest tips and tricks.

Show Notes:
• Comparison between physical ink signatures and digital RON platforms.
• A checklist of common errors that can invalidate a notarized document.
• Best practices for maintaining a secure and legal notary journal.

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Your Monday Notary Reading:
Notary Operational Excellence: Mastering Certificates, Journals, Ink, and Copy Certification on Amazon

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Notary Fraud Shield: Real-World Tactics, Red Flags, and Refusal Strategies on Amazon

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The Mobile Notary Blueprint: Launching and Managing Your On-Demand Business on Amazon

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Notary Niche Navigator: Your Guide to Loan Signings, Apostilles, I-9s, and More on Amazon

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Notary Law & Liability: Understanding State Regulations, Insurance, and Avoiding UPL

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The Future Notary: Mastering RON, eNotary, and Complex Scenarios on Amazon

Quick & Easy Solutions How to Increase Mobile Notary Business for More Success & Profit: with 37 Professional Tips on Amazon

Executive Producer Derrick Spruill
Writers Marylyn Lee Trotter and Eddie Montes Travis
Graphics & Illustrations by Eddie Montes Travis
Music by Thomas Bynum
This Show is Produced by Magnificent Workz
Business Solutions

Transcript

SPEAKER_02 0:00

Welcome to Notary Knowledge. Eddie here, and today we have a flashback episode. We're opening up the notary knowledge vault and bringing back a conversation from the past. Whether you're a brand new listener catching this for the first time or a veteran notary looking to brush up on the basics, this episode is loaded with actionable insights you can use today. Let's fire up the time machine and dive in. Remember, good enough is not a thing.

SPEAKER_00 0:26

Enjoy the show. To obtain more notary knowledge, explore the full collection of books by Derek Spruel and find the perfect book for your notary business. Visit any online bookstore Amazon.com, Barnes and Noble Bookstore, Bookofmillion.com, Bookshop.org, Mobile Notary by DerekSproul.com, or download from Kindle to obtain your essential notary book to help with all your notarization starting today.

SPEAKER_04 1:03

It's great to be back.

SPEAKER_02 1:04

You know, the energy from this community lately has just been, well, it's been off the charts. We are seeing so many of you engaging, asking these incredible questions, and really treating this profession with the seriousness it deserves.

SPEAKER_04 1:18

And that engagement is, frankly, vital. We're in a business where isolation can be really dangerous.

SPEAKER_05 1:25

That's a good way to put it.

SPEAKER_04 1:26

It is. If you aren't connecting with other professionals, if you aren't staying up to date on these changes, you are, I mean, you're just falling behind.

SPEAKER_02 1:34

Exactly. And speaking of staying connected, could you do me a huge favor right now? If you're getting value out of these conversations, if what we're talking about helps you sleep a little better at night because you know you're doing the job right, please just take a second to hit that like button. Share this with your notary network. Yeah. You know, shooting in a text to a friend, and of course, subscribe. It really, really helps us grow this community of professionals.

SPEAKER_04 1:58

It absolutely does. And it helps us get this information to the people who need it before they make a mistake, not after.

SPEAKER_02 2:05

Yes. Before. So for those of you tuning in for the first time, let me kind of set the stage for you.

SPEAKER_01 2:10

Okay.

SPEAKER_02 2:11

Here's the dynamic. I'm the curious learner. I'm the one who reads the handbook. And then I say, okay, but what does that actually look like in real life? Right. I'm here to ask the questions that you might be shouting at your radio or your phone right now. And across from me we have our seasoned expert.

SPEAKER_04 2:30

Hello, everyone. My job, I guess, is to help navigate the gray areas.

SPEAKER_02 2:34

And there are so many gray areas.

SPEAKER_03 2:35

More and more every day.

SPEAKER_02 2:37

You know, we were chatting just before we started recording about how much the landscape has shifted. And based on our previous learnings and some of the conversations we've had on this show, it just feels like the ground is constantly moving under our feet.

SPEAKER_05 2:50

It is.

SPEAKER_02 2:50

It's just not about a rubber stamp and a ten cent ballpoint pen at a kitchen table anymore, is it?

SPEAKER_04 2:55

Aaron Ross Powell No, it's really not. And that can be a scary realization for some people, especially those who've been doing this for twenty or thirty years. Aaron Powell I can imagine. We have moved from an era of, you know, purely physical artifacts, paper, wax seals, ink into this new era of digital certificates, biometric analysis, cloud storage. It's a massive transition.

SPEAKER_02 3:20

Aaron Powell It feels like we have one foot in each world right now.

SPEAKER_04 3:22

Aaron Powell We do. But, and I want to stress this right at the very top because it really anchors everything we're going to talk about today.

SPEAKER_05 3:28

Okay.

SPEAKER_04 3:29

While the tools change, and it doesn't matter if you're using a feather quill or a cryptographic hash, the core pillars of what we do, they remain exactly the same.

SPEAKER_02 3:39

Aaron Powell So the foundation is the same.

SPEAKER_04 3:41

The foundation is identical. We are still talking about integrity, we're still talking about impartiality, and of course, we are still talking about verification. If you lose those three things, it doesn't matter how fancy your webcam is, you're not doing the job.

SPEAKER_02 3:54

I love that perspective. The tech is just the vehicle, but the integrity is the driver. Exactly. So here's our mission for today. We are going to explore that entire spectrum of signing. We'll start with the foundation, the traditional wet signature. We're going to really break down why it still exists, the physics behind it, all of that.

SPEAKER_04 4:13

And then we have to dive into the digital revolution. We'll look at remote online notarization or R on and how that actually works under the hood.

SPEAKER_02 4:22

Aaron Powell And we also have to talk about the people in the room, too. We're going to dissect the difference between a witness and a notary.

SPEAKER_04 4:27

Aaron Powell, which is a source of constant confusion.

SPEAKER_02 4:30

Oh, constant. And at least so many problems. And we're also going to touch on operational excellence. You know, protecting your journal, your seal, dealing with those pushy employers who think they own your commission.

SPEAKER_03 4:41

Oh, yeah, that's a big one.

SPEAKER_02 4:43

It is. Plus, you have to stick around until the very end because we have our good question, what would you do segment, where we are tackling some really, really sticky situations sent in by you, the listeners.

SPEAKER_04 4:55

I'm looking forward to that part. The hypotheticals are where we really get to test our knowledge.

SPEAKER_02 5:00

They really are. So let's just jump right in. Segment one, the foundation. We hear the term wet signature all the time in this industry. It's thrown around in emails and lender instruction. But let's get forensic for a second. Is it just about the ink? What is the actual definition we should be working with here?

SPEAKER_04 5:16

It's funny, isn't it? We use that term so casually now. But technically, a wet signature, or you might hear wet ink signature, refers to a name or a mark that is physically written on a tangible document.

SPEAKER_02 5:31

Tangible, so paper.

SPEAKER_04 5:32

Haber, exactly. Where the ink needs time to dry, that's where the word wet comes from. It implies a physical chemical interaction between the liquid ink and the fibers of the paper.

SPEAKER_02 5:43

Aaron Powell You know, it seems almost silly that we have to specify wet now. I mean, 10, 15 years ago, if you said I need a wet signature, people would look at you like you had two heads. It was just a signature.

SPEAKER_04 5:53

Right. It's a great example of what linguists call a retronym.

SPEAKER_02 5:56

A retronym.

SPEAKER_04 5:56

Yeah. It's a term we create for an old thing after a new thing makes the original name ambiguous. Like we say acoustic guitar now because electric guitars exist. Before the 1930s, it was just a guitar.

SPEAKER_01 6:08

I see.

SPEAKER_04 6:09

Or landline phone because cell phones were invented. Before digital signatures and DocuSign, signing your name was just signing your name. Now we have to distinguish the physical act from the digital one because their legal weight and forensic properties are completely different.

SPEAKER_02 6:23

Okay, so let's play devil's advocate here. We are living in an age where I can buy a car on my phone, I can trade stocks with a single swipe. Why on earth does the wet signature still matter? Why hasn't it gone the way of the dodo or the fax machine?

SPEAKER_04 6:38

Aaron Powell It's a completely valid question. And honestly, for a lot of low-level transactions, it is going away. Sure. But for high-stakes transactions, the wet signature is often still the absolute gold standard. And we're talking about things like wills, trusts, adoptions, divorce proceedings, and most real estate recordings.

SPEAKER_02 6:55

Aaron Powell So why specifically those documents? Is it just that the law is being slow to catch up to technology? Or is there something more to it?

SPEAKER_04 7:03

Aaron Powell That's certainly part of it. Legislation always moves slower than innovation. But there's a profound fraud prevention aspect to it that we can't ignore.

SPEAKER_05 7:12

Okay.

SPEAKER_04 7:12

Think about a will. That document might sit in a fireproof safe for 40 or 50 years before it's ever needed.

SPEAKER_02 7:20

Right.

SPEAKER_04 7:21

It might be contested in court by family members who haven't even been born yet.

SPEAKER_02 7:24

That's a wild thought.

SPEAKER_04 7:26

It is. But when you have an original physical document with a wet ink signature, forensic experts can do some amazing things. They can analyze the pressure of the pen on the paper, the indentation depth on the page. Wow. They can analyze the chemical composition of the ink itself to help date it. They can see if the hand that wrote it was shaking or if it paused in unnatural places. You just can't get that same level of rich forensic data from a bunch of pixels on a PDF.

SPEAKER_02 7:53

That makes so much sense. I never thought about it like that. It's really about the forensic trail it leaves behind.

SPEAKER_04 7:58

Exactly. And then there's the psychological factor, which I think is just as important. There is a perceived higher level of legal formality and trust when a person has to physically sit down, pick up a pen, and make their mark on a piece of paper.

SPEAKER_02 8:12

It feels more real, doesn't it? There's a certain gravity to it.

SPEAKER_04 8:16

It does. It's a ritual. Clicking I agree on a terms of service update for some app feels trivial. You do it while you're watching TV.

SPEAKER_02 8:24

Right, without even reading it.

SPEAKER_04 8:25

Of course not.

SPEAKER_02 8:26

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 8:26

But sitting at a table with a notary watching you and physically pressing ink into paper that signals to your brain, pay attention, this is serious. I'm committing to this. And that psychological hurdle, it creates a barrier to fraud and it creates a barrier to frivolous agreements.

SPEAKER_02 8:42

I can tell you when I signed my first mortgage, my hand was practically cramping by the end of it from all the initials and signatures. I bet. But I definitely felt the weight of that loan. I wasn't just clicking buttons, I was physically laboring to promise to pay all that money back.

SPEAKER_04 8:56

And that cramping hand is part of the ceremony of commitment. It binds you to the act in a way that a click just can't.

SPEAKER_02 9:03

So for all the notaries listening who are handling these wet ink signings every single day, let's talk about workflow. It seems simple on the surface, you know, sign here, stamp here, but we know the devil's in the details. Always. What are the absolute best practices to ensure that WED signature is valid, professional, and won't get rejected?

SPEAKER_04 9:22

Aaron Powell Okay, first and foremost, and this sounds so obvious, but you have to sign the final version of the document.

SPEAKER_02 9:29

You would think that goes without saying.

SPEAKER_04 9:30

You would think. But you would be shocked at how many people try to get signatures on a draft because they're in a hurry. They'll say, oh, we'll just fix the typos later.

SPEAKER_02 9:38

Oh, that sounds like a disaster waiting to happen.

SPEAKER_04 9:40

It is a complete disaster because once that wet signature is on the page, the content above it is, for all intents and purposes, locked. You can't change it. If you change it, the signature is no longer valid for that new content. So, rule number one: only sign the final approved complete document.

SPEAKER_02 9:58

Okay. Final version only. Got it. What's rule number two?

SPEAKER_04 10:01

Use the right tool for the job. And the standard professional practice is to use either blue or black ink.

SPEAKER_02 10:07

Now, this is a debate I see online constantly. People get really passionate about this. They do. Is there a preference? Some lenders insist on black, some say it has to be blue. What's the actual logic here?

SPEAKER_04 10:19

Well, historically, black was the standard because it photocopied the best on the old machines. But in the modern era, with high quality scanners, blue has actually become the preferred standard for many legal professionals and notaries.

SPEAKER_02 10:32

Okay, so why the shift to blue ink?

SPEAKER_04 10:35

Because photocopiers and scanners have gotten too good. If I sign a document in a good dark black ink and then I make a high quality color photocopy of it, it can be incredibly difficult to tell which one is the original and which one is the copy.

SPEAKER_02 10:50

They look identical.

SPEAKER_04 10:51

Very close to it. But if I sign in blue ink, even a darker blue, it's usually much easier to visually distinguish the original wet ink from the black toner of a copy. It provides an immediate visual cue that says, this is the master document.

SPEAKER_02 11:05

That is such a practical, brilliant tip. Blue for original. So you don't have that moment of panic trying to figure out which pile is the real one.

SPEAKER_04 11:12

Precisely. And while we're on the topic of signing, don't forget initialization.

SPEAKER_02 11:17

Right. The little initials at the bottom of the page.

SPEAKER_04 11:20

Yes. Some documents, especially long contracts or real estate forms, require initials on the bottom of every single page.

SPEAKER_02 11:27

What's the real purpose of that? Is it just busy work to make my hand cramp?

SPEAKER_04 11:31

No, it's actually a really important form of protection. It proves that no pages were swapped out after the fact.

SPEAKER_01 11:38

Ah, I see.

SPEAKER_04 11:39

Think about it. If you have a 50-page contract and you only sign page 50, a dishonest person could theoretically rewrite page 25 to say something completely different and just slip it in.

SPEAKER_05 11:48

Right.

SPEAKER_04 11:49

But if your initials are on the bottom of page 25, that substitution becomes much, much harder to pull off. It locks every page together.

SPEAKER_02 11:57

That makes total sense. Now let's talk about the vulnerability of paper itself. I mean, if we're dealing with physical atoms, we're dealing with physical risks. Fire, floods, coffee spills, the dog eating it.

SPEAKER_04 12:08

This is critical. If you are the custodian of these original wet ink documents, or if you're advising a client on how to store them, organization and protection are absolutely key.

SPEAKER_02 12:18

So fireproof safes.

SPEAKER_04 12:20

Fireproof safes are a great start for irreplaceable documents like wills and deeds. But even a safe isn't 100% guaranteed.

SPEAKER_05 12:27

True.

SPEAKER_04 12:27

And that brings us to what I think is the most important piece of modern advice for handling wet signatures. Make a digital backup immediately.

SPEAKER_02 12:36

So scan it right away, as soon as the signing is done.

SPEAKER_04 12:39

The second the ink is dry, scan it or take a high-resolution photo with your phone. If the original document is lost, let's say the courier loses the package or your office has a fire, having a clear digital copy can be an absolute lifesaver.

SPEAKER_02 12:54

Aaron Powell But does the scan count as the original document legally?

SPEAKER_04 12:57

Not usually, no. The best evidence rule in law prefers the original. But what the scan does is prove the intent of the parties and the content of the agreement as it existed at that point in time.

SPEAKER_02 13:07

So it's evidence.

SPEAKER_04 13:08

It's powerful evidence. If a will is lost, a court might accept a copy into probate if there's strong evidence it was validly executed. Without that copy, you're starting from scratch.

SPEAKER_02 13:19

And what if the signer has passed away or you know developed dementia since the signing?

SPEAKER_04 13:23

Aaron Powell That's the nightmare scenario. You can't just resign it. The opportunity is gone forever.

unknown 13:28

Wow.

SPEAKER_02 13:29

That's devastating. Losing the capacity to sign and then having the original document lost.

SPEAKER_04 13:34

It happens more often than you think. So stan it. It is the cheapest, easiest insurance you can get.

SPEAKER_02 13:40

Okay, so West signatures are still very much alive and well. They have a deep forensic purpose, and we need to treat them with a lot of respect. But we can't ignore the shift. We are not just sitting at kitchen tables anymore. We're moving to webcams.

SPEAKER_04 13:54

We are. And this is where the terminology gets really important again because people tend to lump everything digital into one big bucket, and that's a dangerous oversimplification for a notary.

SPEAKER_02 14:03

Aaron Powell You mean they just say e-signing?

SPEAKER_04 14:06

Right. Oh, it's all just e-signing. Well, no. There are legally distinct categories, and you have to know which one you're performing.

SPEAKER_02 14:12

Okay, let's break them down. What are the three main buckets we should know about?

SPEAKER_04 14:16

Okay, bucket number one is traditional notarization. That's everything we just talked about. In person meeting, paper documents, wet ink on paper, you and I are in the same room breathing the same air.

SPEAKER_02 14:28

Got it. The classic model.

SPEAKER_04 14:30

Bucket number two is hybrid notarization. Now, this is where a lot of confusion starts.

SPEAKER_02 14:35

Okay.

SPEAKER_04 14:36

In a hybrid signing, the signer and the notary still meet in person. So we are physically in the same room, but we are signing digital documents on a tablet or a laptop.

SPEAKER_02 14:45

So I'm sitting across the table from you, but instead of handing me a pen, you're handing me an iPad and a stylus.

SPEAKER_04 14:50

Exactly. The meeting is physical. The personal appearance requirement is met by being in the same room, but the signature and the document itself are electronic. This is huge in the real estate world right now because it saves reams of paper, but it still gives the lender the comfort of knowing a notary was physically present to check the ID.

SPEAKER_02 15:10

Okay, so hybrid is face-to-face, but with digital link.

SPEAKER_04 15:13

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 15:14

Got it. And the third one.

SPEAKER_04 15:15

The third one is the big leap. That's remote online notarization, or Ron. This is fully remote. The notary's in their office, the signers in their home.

SPEAKER_02 15:25

They could be anywhere.

SPEAKER_04 15:26

Anywhere. A different state, a different country. As long as the notary state law allows for it, they connect via a secure audio video platform. The documents are digital and the signatures are digital.

SPEAKER_02 15:38

Aaron Powell You know, Ron still feels like the Wild West to some people. I mean, for a profession that was built on this sacred concept of personal appearance, allowing someone to appear on a screen feels like we're breaking a cardinal rule.

SPEAKER_04 15:52

Aaron Powell It is a massive paradigm shift. But I would argue that in some ways the security standards for a proper art session are actually higher than for some traditional notarizations.

SPEAKER_02 16:01

Higher. How so?

SPEAKER_04 16:02

Because it's not just hopping on a Zoom call and waving your driver's license at the camera.

SPEAKER_02 16:06

Right. Because I could hold up a really good fake ID on a webcam and you might not be able to tell the difference if the lighting is bad or the connection is glitchy.

SPEAKER_04 16:14

You're exactly right. And that's why Ron requires specific state-approved technology platforms. You can't use FaceTime, you can't use Skype. You have to use a dedicated platform that handles robust identity verification or IDV.

SPEAKER_02 16:28

So how does that work? If I can't hold the ID in my hand and feel the lamination or check the little hologram, how do I know it's real?

SPEAKER_04 16:35

It uses a two or three part process. The first part is called credential analysis.

SPEAKER_02 16:38

Credential analysis, okay.

SPEAKER_04 16:40

The signer uses their smartphone to take a high-resolution photo of the front and back of their ID and uploads it to the secure platform. The software doesn't just look at it like a human would, it performs a forensic scan.

SPEAKER_02 16:51

What exactly is it scanning for?

SPEAKER_04 16:53

All sorts of things. It's checking the font consistency. It's measuring the exact spacing of the characters against a database of known valid templates for that specific state's ID. It's analyzing the light refraction from the photo to verify the holograms are real and not just print it on. It can even detect pixel tampering to see if a photo has been digitally pasted over an existing ID.

SPEAKER_02 17:14

Wow. So it's actually analyzing the pixels of the image.

SPEAKER_04 17:17

It is. And let's be honest, that software is often better at spotting a sophisticated fake than a human notary who's sitting in a dimly lit Starbucks trying to squint at a card.

SPEAKER_02 17:27

That is a really fair point. Our eyes can be fooled. The software is just looking at raw data.

SPEAKER_04 17:33

And that's just the first layer of security. The second layer is KBA, or knowledge-based authentication.

SPEAKER_02 17:39

Oh, I know this one.

SPEAKER_04 17:40

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 17:40

This is the creepy quiz.

SPEAKER_04 17:42

It is a little creepy, but it is incredibly effective. The system pulls data from various public and private records, credit reports, property records, marketing databases, and it generates a timed quiz for the signer.

SPEAKER_02 17:55

Like what color was the Toyota camera you registered back in 2004?

SPEAKER_04 17:58

Exactly like that. Or which of the following street names have you previously lived on? What is your monthly mortgage payment within a range of $100?

SPEAKER_02 18:07

And you have to answer these in what, like two minutes?

SPEAKER_04 18:10

Usually a very strict time limit, yes. And you have to get a certain percentage right, often 80% or higher. The theory is that if a fraudster steals your wallet, they have your ID. They might even look a bit like you. But they probably don't know who your mortgage lender was in 2012 or the name of the street you lived on in college.

SPEAKER_02 18:27

That's true. I barely remember who my lender was in 2012.

SPEAKER_04 18:31

And that's the security of it. It verifies knowledge that only the true individual should possess. It adds a massive layer of friction for anyone trying to commit identity fraud.

SPEAKER_02 18:41

And I've heard about biometrics starting to come into play too.

SPEAKER_04 18:44

Yes. The technology is evolving so fast. Some high security platforms are using liveness checks now. The camera will track your eye movement, or it will ask you to turn your head slowly from side to side to prove you're a real three-dimensional person and not just a static photo or a deep fake video mask.

SPEAKER_02 19:02

It's getting very sci-fi very quickly.

SPEAKER_04 19:03

It really is.

SPEAKER_02 19:04

Now, one of the things fascinates me most about Ron is the audit trail. In my paper journal, I write down what happened. You know, the signer appeared and signed a deed at 2DRPM. But with Ron, the system does all that for me, right?

SPEAKER_04 19:16

It does, and it's much, much more detailed and secure. We call it the tamper evidence seal. When a document is notarized electronically on one of these platforms, the system applies a digital seal. Now this isn't just a picture of a stamp, it uses something called cryptographic hashes.

SPEAKER_02 19:33

Okay, you're gonna have to break that down for us non-techies. What on earth is a cryptographic hash?

SPEAKER_04 19:38

Think of it like a unique digital fingerprint for the document. The software takes the entire document, every single letter, every space, every pixel, and runs it through a complex mathematical formula to create a unique string of letters and numbers. That string is the fingerprint of that document at that exact second in time.

SPEAKER_02 19:57

Okay, I think I follow.

SPEAKER_04 19:58

So if I verify the document, seal it, and create that fingerprint, and then five minutes later someone goes into the PDF and tries to change a $10,000 loan amount to $100,000.

SPEAKER_02 20:07

Document has changed.

SPEAKER_04 20:08

The document has changed, so the math changes. The fingerprint no longer matches the original one that's embedded in the seal.

SPEAKER_02 20:14

And what happens when the next person opens that file?

SPEAKER_04 20:17

The seal breaks. Visually, you'll probably see a big red X or warning bar at the top of your PDF viewer that says something like certification invalid or this document has been altered since it was signed.

SPEAKER_02 20:29

That is incredibly powerful. You can't do that with paper. I mean, if someone is really skilled with a pen and some chemicals, they could alter a paper document, and I might never even know it happened.

SPEAKER_04 20:39

Exactly. With a digital document, the math doesn't lie. It provides a level of post-signing integrity that paper simply cannot match.

SPEAKER_02 20:47

So speaking of digital assets, we have to touch on this because we get emails about it all the time. Crypto, Bitcoin, NFTs. I've seen people asking, can a notary notarize my Bitcoin transaction?

SPEAKER_04 20:59

Aaron Powell We have to be very, very clear here. There is a lot of confusion and frankly a lot of opportunity for notaries to get into trouble.

SPEAKER_02 21:06

Okay.

SPEAKER_04 21:06

A notary is not verifying the blockchain transaction.

SPEAKER_02 21:08

Aaron Powell So I'm not putting my stamp on the blockchain itself.

SPEAKER_04 21:11

No. You are not verifying that the Bitcoin actually exists. You aren't verifying the value of the NFT. You are strictly, strictly operating in your lane as an identity verifier.

SPEAKER_02 21:22

Aaron Powell So what does a crypto notarization actually look like in practice then?

SPEAKER_04 21:27

Usually it's an affidavit or some other sworn statement. Let's say you lost the private key to your digital wallet. Or maybe you're transferring ownership of that wallet to a trust.

SPEAKER_05 21:36

Okay.

SPEAKER_04 21:37

You would draft a document that says, I, the signer, am the rightful owner of this wallet address, and I am transferring control of it to my living trust.

SPEAKER_01 21:45

I see.

SPEAKER_04 21:46

As the notary, I am notarizing your signature on that piece of paper or that PDF. I am verifying that you are who you say you are and that you sign that statement willingly. I am not going and checking the wallet to see if the money is there. I'm not verifying. Validating the crypto, I am notarizing the signature on the document regarding the asset.

SPEAKER_02 22:05

That is such a vital distinction. You are verifying the person, not the coin.

SPEAKER_04 22:10

Precisely. The notary's role remains constant. Verify identity, confirm willingness, and complete the certificate. The subject matter of the document, whether it's a house, a car, or a folder of digital JPEGs, doesn't change the notary's fundamental duty.

SPEAKER_02 22:25

This is all so fascinating. The landscape is just huge. We're going to take a quick pause right here, but when we come back, we are going to clear up one of the biggest sources of confusion in the entire industry. The difference between a witness and a notary. It sounds simple, but it trips people up constantly. You do not want to miss it. Commercial break one. Hey listeners, we are talking a lot today about knowledge, expertise, and staying out of trouble. The world of notarization is getting more complex, not simpler.

SPEAKER_03 22:55

That's for sure.

SPEAKER_02 22:56

And if you are serious about this profession, you need resources that you can trust. You can't just rely on a quick search or random advice from a social media group for your legal answers.

SPEAKER_04 23:05

That is so true. I see so much dangerously bad advice circulating online. You need vetted expert material.

SPEAKER_02 23:13

And that is why I want to point you toward the notary knowledge book series by Derek Sproul.

SPEAKER_04 23:17

I've had a chance to review these materials, and what's great about them is that they aren't just dry theory. They don't just quote a statute and then leave you hanging. They're practical. Yeah. They cover the exact kind of real-world scenarios we are discussing today. How to handle a difficult signing, how to run a compliant business, and most importantly, how to protect yourself from liability when things inevitably go sideways.

SPEAKER_02 23:41

Exactly. Whether you're a brand new notary just getting your stamp and wondering, okay, what now? Or you're a veteran looking to brush up on the latest best practices for Ron, these books are essential. You can find them and more information at Dereksbruel.com. Go grab a copy, deepen your expertise, and run a better, safer business. And commercial break.

SPEAKER_04 24:03

And we are back on notary knowledge. We are navigating the modern notary landscape. Before the break, we talked about wet ink and digital tech. Now I want to talk about people, specifically the roles that different people play in the signing room.

SPEAKER_02 24:15

This is a big one. This creates so much friction and confusion during appointments.

SPEAKER_04 24:19

It really does. Clients, and let's be honest, even some new notaries, often confuse a witness with a notary. They use the words interchangeably.

SPEAKER_02 24:26

All the time. I've had people call me and say, I need someone to witness this for me. And what they mean is they need it notarized, or they'll say, I need a notary, and when I get there, they actually just need a witness. So let's clear the confusion once and for all. What is the fundamental difference?

SPEAKER_04 24:40

It's a crucial distinction to make. Let's start with the witness. A witness is, at its core, an individual who observes the act of signing. Their primary job is to provide another set of eyes.

SPEAKER_05 24:53

Okay.

SPEAKER_04 24:53

They are there to confirm that this specific person signed the document and that they appear to do it voluntarily. Generally speaking, a witness does not have any public authority. They are just an observer with a very specific purpose.

SPEAKER_02 25:08

Okay, so they're a spectator with a legal purpose.

SPEAKER_04 25:10

That's a great way to put it. Now the notary public is a totally different role. A notary is a public officer who has been commissioned by the state. We verify identity, usually through rigorous ID checks, not just by knowing the person. We assess their capacity. Is this person sober and alert? We confirm their willingness. And critically, we apply an official seal and our own signature, which carries legal weight and allows that document to be accepted into public records.

SPEAKER_02 25:38

So a witness watches, but a notary verifies and seals with the state's authority.

SPEAKER_04 25:44

That's a good shorthand. A witness can go to court and testify, I saw him sign it. A notary certifies with the authority of the state behind them, this person appeared before me, I positively identified them, and they executed this document.

SPEAKER_02 25:57

And to make it even more complex, there are different types of witnesses, aren't there?

SPEAKER_04 26:01

Yes. For most documents, what you need is a neutral witness. This is an independent third party who has no financial or personal interest in the transaction whatsoever.

SPEAKER_02 26:10

So not someone who benefits from the will being signed.

SPEAKER_04 26:13

Exactly. This could be a neighbor, a colleague from work, or sometimes a stranger you pull in from the hallway at the lawyer's office.

SPEAKER_02 26:20

The classic hallway witness.

SPEAKER_04 26:21

Precisely. Excuse me, sir. Would you mind watching this lady sign a will for the next five minutes? Their value lies in their absolute neutrality. They don't care who gets the house, they just saw the pen hit the paper.

SPEAKER_02 26:33

And what's the other type?

SPEAKER_04 26:35

Then you have what you might call a professional witness. This might be a lawyer who is present, or perhaps a doctor if the signing involves questions about the signer's medical capacity. Okay. And here is where it can get tricky. In some jurisdictions, a notary is permitted to act as a witness on a document that they are not notarizing.

SPEAKER_02 26:54

So I can just be the watcher and someone else is the notary.

SPEAKER_04 26:57

Yes. And in some places, for certain documents, a notary can even sign as a witness and then notarize the document, essentially wearing two hats. But in other states, that dual role is strictly forbidding. You absolutely have to know your local rules on that.

SPEAKER_02 27:11

Aaron Powell That brings up what you call the family member trap. I see this question constantly.

SPEAKER_04 27:21

Just don't.

SPEAKER_02 27:22

Why not? I mean, if they're just watching me sign and they're standing right there in the living room, why is that such a problem?

SPEAKER_04 27:28

Aaron Powell Because the entire point of having a witness is to provide credible, unbiased testimony if that document is ever challenged in court down the road.

SPEAKER_05 27:37

Right.

SPEAKER_04 27:38

Family members almost always have what the law calls a personal interest or an inherent bias.

SPEAKER_02 27:44

Ah, I see where this is going.

SPEAKER_04 27:46

Imagine this scenario. You sign a will, leaving your entire estate to your brother. Your brother acts as one of the witnesses. Later, your estranged cousin contests the will, claiming you were pressured into it. The court looks at the witness. Who is it? It's the guy who's about to inherit all the money.

SPEAKER_02 28:04

His testimony is completely worthless.

SPEAKER_04 28:06

It's seen as self-serving and biased. Of course he said she signed it willingly. He's getting the house. It compromises the integrity and the validity of the document. The best practice is always, always to use a neutral party, someone who gains absolutely nothing from the document being signed.

SPEAKER_02 28:21

So when is a witness actually required by law? Because I've notarized plenty of documents where it was just me and the signer in the room.

SPEAKER_04 28:30

Right. And most everyday documents, like simple affidavits or minor contracts, don't require a separate witness. But certain high stakes documents almost always do.

SPEAKER_02 28:40

Like wills.

SPEAKER_04 28:41

Wills are the big one. Almost every jurisdiction requires two disinterested witnesses for a will to be valid, often in addition to a notarization.

SPEAKER_02 28:50

Aaron Powell And why wills specifically? What's the logic there?

SPEAKER_04 28:53

Aaron Ross Powell Because the person who signed it will be dead when the document is actually used. They can't speak for themselves. They can't go to court and say, yes, that was my intention. So you need extra voices, the witnesses, to speak for them and their actions.

SPEAKER_02 29:07

Aaron Powell That's a chilling but very practical point.

SPEAKER_04 29:09

Aaron Powell Deeds in certain states also require witnesses to be recorded. Powers of attorney often require them, especially healthcare directives. The idea is to have extra pairs of eyes to prevent fraud and just as importantly to prevent duress or coercion.

SPEAKER_05 29:24

Right.

SPEAKER_04 29:24

A witness can later say, Yes, I saw her sign that, and no, nobody was holding a gun to her head, and no, she didn't seem confused or drugged. It's that extra layer of protection for the vulnerable.

SPEAKER_02 29:34

That makes perfect sense. Okay. Let's move from the people in the room to the tools on the table. We talked about the tech, but let's talk about operational excellence with our physical tools. The journal and the seal.

SPEAKER_04 29:46

These are your most important assets. They are the tools of your trade. Without them, you're just a person with a pen who watched someone sign something.

SPEAKER_02 29:53

Aaron Powell Let's start with the seal.

SPEAKER_04 29:55

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 29:55

It seems obvious, but who ultimately is responsible for that little piece of plastic or metal?

SPEAKER_04 30:01

You are the notary. Period. Not your boss, not your spouse, not your assistant. It is the notary's absolute and sole responsibility to secure that seal. It must be kept under your direct control at all times.

SPEAKER_02 30:16

I have heard absolute horror stories of bosses saying, hey, just leave your stamp on your desk so I can stamp these things while you're at lunch.

SPEAKER_04 30:23

That is a felony waiting to happen. Never, ever, under any circumstances do that. The seal represents your personal signature and your commission from the state. If someone else uses it, you are legally responsible for whatever fraudulent act they commit with it.

SPEAKER_02 30:37

And what if it goes missing? You look in your bag and it's just gone.

SPEAKER_04 30:40

Don't panic, but act immediately. If your seal is lost or stolen, you need to report it to your commissioning authority, usually the Secretary of State, immediately.

SPEAKER_02 30:50

Is there a specific timeline, like 24 hours?

SPEAKER_04 30:53

The rules vary, but the best practice is to do it the moment you know it's gone. You also generally need to file a police report if you believe it was stolen.

SPEAKER_02 31:01

Why the urgency? Why do I need to call the police over a $20 Weber stamp?

SPEAKER_04 31:05

Because in the hands of a fraudster, a stolen notary seal is a key to the kingdom. Someone could use it to transfer property titles, sign fake car loans, issue fraudulent powers of attorney. The damage can be immense. Wow. And if that seal is eventually traced back to you and you didn't report it missing in a timely manner, you could be found liable for the damages. You have to establish a clear timeline. My seal was stolen on Tuesday. Any document you see stamp after Tuesday was not me.

SPEAKER_02 31:34

That is terrifying, but so important to know. Now, this next point is one I really want to hammer home because I hear this story constantly. It's the employer myth.

SPEAKER_04 31:42

I know exactly where you are going with this. This is the classic and very stressful workplace conflict.

SPEAKER_02 31:49

It is. The notary says, My boss paid for my commission application, my boss bought my stamp, my boss bought my journal, I'm quitting my job today, and he says I have to leave my seal and journal behind because he says the company owns them.

SPEAKER_04 32:03

Hard no, absolutely, unequivocally not.

SPEAKER_02 32:05

Say it louder for the people in the back.

SPEAKER_04 32:07

The notary commission belongs to the individual, not the company. You are a public officer commissioned by the state. You are not a company officer in that capacity. The seal is yours. The journal, and this is vital, is a public record that is maintained by you, the notary.

SPEAKER_02 32:24

So even if the employer has the receipt from the office supply store proving they paid for the supplies, it does not matter.

SPEAKER_04 32:30

Think of it like a police officer's badge. The city or department pays for it, but it's a tool of that individual's public office. There are prevailing legal opinions across the industry and explicit laws in many places that state an employer cannot retain these items.

SPEAKER_02 32:44

Okay, so let's role play this for a second. I'm the notary. I'm in my exit interview. My boss says, you have to hand over the journal. It has confidential client information in it. You can't take that with you. What do I do? What do I say?

SPEAKER_04 32:57

First, you stand your ground, but you do it respectfully. You can explain, I understand your concern about confidentiality, but by law, this journal is my personal responsibility to maintain as a public officer.

SPEAKER_05 33:09

Okay.

SPEAKER_04 33:09

You can add, I am required by the state to keep this record for a period of ten years or whatever the local rule is. If I leave it behind, I am failing my duty as a public officer and could face penalties.

SPEAKER_02 33:22

And what if they push back hard on that confidential info argument?

SPEAKER_04 33:25

Aaron Powell That is a valid concern for them. They don't want you walking out the door with their client list.

SPEAKER_02 33:29

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 33:30

So the reasonable compromise is this you can offer to make copies of the journal pages that are relevant to their specific business transactions before you leave.

unknown 33:39

Oh.

SPEAKER_04 33:40

You give them the copies so they have a record for their files. You keep the original book. The book stays with you, period.

SPEAKER_02 33:46

That is such empowering and practical advice. I really hope everyone listening takes that to heart. You are the officer, not just the employee. Trevor Burrus, Jr.

SPEAKER_04 33:55

Correct. Do not let anyone bully you into breaking the law for them.

SPEAKER_02 33:59

Aaron Powell Let's talk about another operational question that comes up all the time. Copy certifications. I have people come into my office with their passports, their birth certificates, their diplomas, and they say, Can you notarize a copy of this?

SPEAKER_04 34:12

Aaron Powell This is a minefield if you don't know the public versus private document rule.

SPEAKER_02 34:16

Aaron Powell Okay, break it down for us.

SPEAKER_04 34:18

Aaron Powell A public document is something that is already created and held by a government agency, a birth certificate, a death certificate, a marriage license, a court judgment. These are often called vital records. As a notary, you generally cannot certify copies of these documents.

SPEAKER_02 34:34

Why not? I mean, if they have the original right here in their hand and I make the copy myself on my machine.

SPEAKER_04 34:39

Because the true original resides with the government agency. The piece of paper in their hand is just a certified copy that was issued by the state. If someone needs another certified copy, they have to go back to the source, the Bureau of Vital Statistics, or the court clerk.

SPEAKER_05 34:53

I see.

SPEAKER_04 34:53

They are the ones who issue the copy with their special raise seal. If I just photocopy your birth certificate and put my notary stamp on it, I'm attempting to bypass the official agency that owns and controls that record. It's invalid, and in many places it's illegal.

SPEAKER_02 35:09

Okay, so that's a hard no on birth certificates and marriage licenses. What about private documents?

SPEAKER_04 35:14

Aaron Powell Private documents are things that are not held by a government agency. A diploma from a university, a medical record from a doctor's office, a personal contract between two people, a letter written by your grandmother.

SPEAKER_05 35:26

Got it.

SPEAKER_04 35:27

These generally can be copy certified by a notary, assuming your jurisdiction allows notaries to perform that act, you, the notary, would compare the original document to the copy and certify that it's a true, exact, and complete copy of the original you saw.

SPEAKER_02 35:41

Okay, so diploma, driver's license.

SPEAKER_04 35:44

A driver's license is a tricky one. It is a government-issued ID. Some places allow it, many do not. That's when you really have to check your specific state handbook for. But the general rule of thumb is vital records are a definite no-go.

SPEAKER_02 36:00

Before we hit our next break, I want to briefly touch on misconduct. We assume everyone listening wants to do the right thing, but we know mistakes can happen.

SPEAKER_04 36:08

They do. And the law distinguishes between intentional misconduct and unintentional misconduct.

SPEAKER_02 36:15

Intentional seems pretty obvious. That's the bad guys, right?

SPEAKER_04 36:18

Right. That's deliberate disobedience of the law. I know I'm supposed to see a valid ID, but this is my buddy, so I'm gonna skip it. Or I know I shouldn't backdate this document, but the client offered me 50 extra dollars. That's fraud. That's intentional.

SPEAKER_02 36:32

And unintentional misconduct.

SPEAKER_04 36:34

This is simple negligence. This is the well-meaning notary who just messes up. I completely forgot to administer the oath for that girat. I let my seal smudge and I didn't fix it. I didn't notice that the document was incomplete when I notarized it.

SPEAKER_02 36:47

And the scary part is both can lead to serious liability, right?

SPEAKER_04 36:51

Absolutely. You can be sued for negligence just as easily as you can for fraud if your mistake causes someone financial damage. If your smudged seal causes a real estate deal to be rejected, and the borrower loses their interest rate lock as a result, guess who they're going to come after for the difference?

SPEAKER_02 37:06

The notary.

SPEAKER_04 37:07

The notary. That's why operational excellence, slowing down, following every single step, keeping a detailed journal, that is your best defense against both types of claims.

SPEAKER_02 37:16

Slow down to speed up. I love that. Okay, we are going to take one more quick break. When we come back, it is time to open the mailbag. We have questions from Nora, Victor, Samantha, Carlos, and a very conflicted family notary. You are listening to Notary Knowledge, Commercial Break Two.

SPEAKER_04 37:35

Welcome back. We've covered Wet Inc., we've covered robots, mean RN, and we've covered the operational side of things. And now I just want to reiterate the value of having a great resource like Derek Sproul's books. We are about to answer some really tough situational questions. And honestly, having a reference guide like Derek's on your shelf is the best way to handle these scenarios when they happen in real time. It really is. You do not want to be Googling the answer on your phone while the client is staring at you, waiting. You want a trusted resource at your fingertips.

SPEAKER_02 38:05

If you want to master the situations we are about to discuss today, go to Dereksbruel.com and grab a copy.

SPEAKER_04 38:11

Knowledge is power, but only if you have access to it at the moment you need it.

SPEAKER_02 38:16

Exactly. Yeah. So let's get into our final segment. Good question. What would you do? We have listener emails asking for advice on some very sticky situations. And a reminder if you have a question, please email it to Derek at dereksbruel.com. We will try to answer as many as we can at the end of our shows.

SPEAKER_03 38:33

I'm ready. What's the first one?

SPEAKER_02 38:35

Okay, this one comes to us from newbie Nora. She writes, Can you guys explain the difference between an acknowledgement and a draught like I'm five years old? I keep getting mixed up.

SPEAKER_04 38:44

I love this question. Because everyone, and I truly mean everyone, gets mixed up at the beginning. Okay, Nora, here is the explain it like I'm five version.

SPEAKER_01 38:53

Let's hear it.

SPEAKER_04 38:54

An acknowledgement is all about identity. Think of it as a handshake. The signer looks at you and says, Oh, yes, that's my signature. I signed this.

SPEAKER_02 39:01

Okay. You are simply verifying that they are who they say they are and that they signed it willingly. Now here's the key point for an acknowledgement. They can sign the document before they meet you. They could have signed it at breakfast this morning. As long as they stand in front of you later and say, Yep, that's my signature, you can notarize it.

SPEAKER_04 39:19

Okay. So acknowledgement equals that's me, and I did it.

SPEAKER_02 39:23

Perfect. Now, a girat, which is also sometimes called a verification on oath or affirmation, is all about truth. Think of it like a witness taking the stand in a courtroom. Right. The signer looks at you and says, I swear that everything written in this paper is true. For a girat, you, the notary, must administer a verbal oath or affirmation. And this is critical. They must sign the document in your physical presence.

SPEAKER_04 39:50

They can't sign it at breakfast?

SPEAKER_02 39:52

Absolutely not. If they already signed it at breakfast, you have to have them sign it again right there in front of you. Because you are witnessing the act of them swearing to the truth of the document's contents.

SPEAKER_03 40:01

So girat equals I swear it's true and watch me sign it right now. Exactly. Acknowledgement. Is this your signature? Yes, girat. Do you swear the contents are true? Yes. And then they sign.

SPEAKER_02 40:13

That is a great mnemonic. Acknowledgement is identity, girat is truth. I really hope that helps you out, Nora.

SPEAKER_04 40:20

And remember, Nora, just check the wording on the notarial certificate. If it says acknowledged before me, it's an acknowledgement. If it says subscribed and sworn to before me, it's a girat.

SPEAKER_02 40:30

Perfect. Okay, next up, we have Victor in Virginia. He asks. If you could pick one notary law from your state, or any state really, that every other state in the country should adopt, what would it be and why?

SPEAKER_04 40:44

Oh, that's a fantastic question. If I had a magic wand that could make one law universal, I would go back to what we were just talking about. I would standardize the law that explicitly states an employer cannot keep a notary's journal or seal when they leave their job.

SPEAKER_02 40:57

Bringing you back to the employer myth.

SPEAKER_04 40:59

Yes. Some states have this written right into their statutes, which is great. It protects the notary's independence as a public officer. It ensures that the public record, which is what the journal is, travels with the public officer, not with the company they happen to work for. Right. When an employer keeps a journal, they're essentially holding public records hostage. Every single state should make it explicitly illegal for an employer to confiscate those tools. It would solve so many headaches and stressful exit interviews for notaries.

SPEAKER_02 41:26

I agree 100%. Free the journals. Okay, our next question is from Samantha in Seattle. She asks, When a document doesn't have a notarial certificate attached, who is actually supposed to choose which one to use? Me, the notary, or the signer?

SPEAKER_04 41:43

This is a classic trap. A test of a notary's understanding of their role. The answer is unequivocally, the signer.

SPEAKER_02 41:50

But wait a minute, Samantha was probably thinking, but the signer doesn't know. They're looking at me like I'm the expert. I'm the one with the stamp and the commission.

SPEAKER_04 41:58

I know. And it is an incredibly uncomfortable position to be in. But here is the heart line you cannot cross. If you choose the certificate, if you look at the document and say, Oh, this looks like an affidavit, so I'll attach a giraffe. You are practicing law without a license.

SPEAKER_02 42:13

How is that practicing law?

SPEAKER_04 42:15

Because you are making a legal determination about the document. You are deciding what legal effect that notarization needs to have. That is the unauthorized practice of law or UPL, and it can get you into a world of trouble.

SPEAKER_02 42:28

So what do you do? The signer is just staring at you blankly, waiting for you to tell them what to do.

SPEAKER_04 42:33

You explain the difference, just like we did for Nora. You say, I cannot choose for you, but I can explain your options. An acknowledgement will prove that you are the one who signed this document. A durat will have you swear that the contents of the document are true.

SPEAKER_02 42:46

And usually that's enough for them to know.

SPEAKER_04 42:48

Usually yes. But if they still don't know, you must tell them to contact the person who drafted the document or the agency that is receiving it. They need to ask, do you need me to swear to the contents of this? Or just acknowledge my signature? It is always better to delay the signing than it is to practice law without a license.

SPEAKER_02 43:06

Great advice. Always protect your commission first. Next up we have Carlos in Miami. He says, panic moment. My seal smudged on the paper. What is the proper protocol? Do I cross it out and stamp again, or do I have to have them redo the whole page?

SPEAKER_04 43:21

Okay, first thing, Carlos, don't panic. It happens to the best of us.

SPEAKER_02 43:25

Uh-huh.

SPEAKER_04 43:25

Ink pads get dry, paper can be glossy, it happens.

SPEAKER_02 43:28

So do we cross it out? That feels like the intuitive thing to do?

SPEAKER_04 43:31

No, do not just scribble over the bad impression or cross it out and then slap a new one on top of it. Why not? Because it looks incredibly unprofessional, and more importantly, it can look like tampering. A receiving agency like a county clerk's office might reject the document because it looks like someone tried to alter or cover up the original seal.

SPEAKER_02 43:50

So, what is the correct fix?

SPEAKER_04 43:51

The best protocol is if there is enough blank space nearby on the same page, you simply perform a second clear impression of the seal. You don't need To cross out the bad one, just make sure there's a good legible one right next to it.

SPEAKER_02 44:03

And what if there isn't enough space? Like the certificate's at the very bottom of the page.

SPEAKER_04 44:07

Aaron Powell If the page is too crowded with text, your best bet is to use a separate loose certificate. You take a blank certificate form, you fill it out completely, you stamp it clearly, and you securely attach it to the original document, usually with a staple. Then on the original document near the smudge seal, you just write a note like see attached certificate. Never ever leave a messy or illegible stamp as the only one. If you can't read your name, your commission number, or the expiration date, it's not a valid notarization.

SPEAKER_02 44:37

See attached certificate. Simple, clean, and professional. Love it.

SPEAKER_04 44:42

Okay, here is our last question. This one is from the family notary. No name given, keeping it mysterious. I like it.

SPEAKER_02 44:49

They ask. I getting mixed signals on this. Can I notarize for a family member if I have absolutely zero financial interest in the transaction? Why or why not?

SPEAKER_04 45:00

We touched on this with witnesses, but let's apply it directly to the notary. The answer is while the specific laws vary slightly from state to state, the universal best advice, the professional advice, is no.

SPEAKER_02 45:13

Even if there's no money changing hands. For example, what if I'm just notarizing a simple permission slip for my nephew to go on a school field trip?

SPEAKER_04 45:21

Even then it's a bad idea. Here's the concept you need to understand. Beneficial interest goes beyond just direct financial gain. It also includes emotional interest and the appearance of family bias.

SPEAKER_02 45:31

And in the legal world, the appearance of something is often just as important as the reality of it.

SPEAKER_04 45:36

Exactly. If you notarize a document for your spouse, your parent, or your sibling, you are creating an appearance of bias. If that document is ever challenged in court, the opposing lawyer will point at the notary's last name on the certificate and say, Of course they verified it. That's their mother.

SPEAKER_02 45:51

It weakens the document's credibility.

SPEAKER_04 45:53

It completely undermines it. Some states have laws that strictly forbid notarizing for a spouse or domestic partner, and doing so renders the notarial act voidable.

SPEAKER_02 46:02

Voidable is a scary word. It's a word I definitely don't want associated with any of my work.

SPEAKER_04 46:07

It means it can be challenged and thrown out by a judge. Why would you ever risk that? Just find another notary down the street. It's a small fee to pay for complete peace of mind and a rock solid, unimpeachable document. Keep your business and your family separate.

SPEAKER_02 46:22

That is the golden rule right there. Keep it clean.

SPEAKER_04 46:24

Absolutely.

SPEAKER_02 46:25

Well, looking at the clock, we have covered a ton of ground today, from the chemistry of wet ink to the biometric scans of ARN, all the way to the ethical dilemmas of notarizing for your brother.

SPEAKER_04 46:35

We really did run the gamut. And I think the big takeaway for me listening to all this is that whether you're using a feather quill from the 1800s or a blockchain-enabled platform in 2030, the job is the same.

SPEAKER_05 46:46

How so?

SPEAKER_04 46:47

You are the gatekeeper of integrity. You are the trusted neutral third party. If you keep that mindset front and center, then the tools you use are just tools.

SPEAKER_02 46:56

I love that. Integrity is the constant. Thank you so much for sharing all of that wisdom with us today.

SPEAKER_04 47:02

It's always a pleasure.

SPEAKER_02 47:03

And thank you to all of our listeners for tuning in. Remember, if you want to go deeper on any of these topics, check out Derek Spruell's books. And please, send your questions for the next mailbag to Derek at Derricksproul.com.

SPEAKER_04 47:17

We love reading them, so please keep them coming.

SPEAKER_02 47:20

Until next time, keep learning, stay compliant, and don't forget to like, share, and subscribe. Bye for now.

SPEAKER_04 47:25

Goodbye, everyone.

SPEAKER_00 47:28

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