Foundational Fridays: Disqualifying Interest & When to Walk Away

Discovering the line between helpful service and a conflict of interest is vital for every signing agent. Join Eddie Montes Travis and Marylyn Lee Trotter as they break down the critical rules regarding disqualifying interest and why protecting your commission means knowing exactly when to step back from a table.

• • Financial Gain: Understanding that having a direct financial or beneficial interest in a document prevents you from acting as an impartial witness.
• • Family Connections: Recognizing the legal and ethical boundaries when asked to notarize for relatives and why many states strictly prohibit this practice to avoid bias.
• • Identifying Red Flags: Learning the specific warning signs that suggest a transaction might be unethical or legally questionable, requiring you to refuse service.
• • The Power of Refusal: Exploring the proper way to decline a signing and walk away while maintaining professional integrity and following state guidelines.

Protecting your career starts with knowing your limits and staying objective in every transaction. Mastering these foundational concepts ensures you remain a trusted official in your community. Please subscribe and like the podcast to stay updated on all our latest tips and training!

Show Notes:
• Definition of a disqualifying interest in notary law.
• The importance of remaining an impartial witness.
• How to handle requests from family members and close associates.
• Best practices for declining a notarization legally and professionally.

Buy Becoming a Notary on Amazon

Notary Knowledge Reference Guide and Notary Bible on Amazon

Your Sunday Notary Reading:
Notary Public Foundation: Essential Guide to Core Duties, Ethics, and Commissioning on Amazon

Your Monday Notary Reading:
Notary Operational Excellence: Mastering Certificates, Journals, Ink, and Copy Certification on Amazon

Your Tuesday Notary Reading:
Notary Fraud Shield: Real-World Tactics, Red Flags, and Refusal Strategies on Amazon

Your Wednesday Notary Reading:
The Mobile Notary Blueprint: Launching and Managing Your On-Demand Business on Amazon

Your Thursday Notary Reading:
Notary Niche Navigator: Your Guide to Loan Signings, Apostilles, I-9s, and More on Amazon

Your Friday Notary Reading:
Notary Law & Liability: Understanding State Regulations, Insurance, and Avoiding UPL

Your Saturday Notary Reading:
The Future Notary: Mastering RON, eNotary, and Complex Scenarios on Amazon

Quick & Easy Solutions: How to Increase Mobile Notary Business for More Success & Profit: with 37 Professional Tips on Amazon

Executive Producer Derrick Spruill
Writers Marylyn Lee Trotter and Eddie Montes Travis
Graphics & Illustrations by Eddie Montes Travis
Music by Thomas Bynum
This Show is Produced by Magnificent Workz
Business Solutions

Transcript

SPEAKER_00 0:01

Are you looking for an edge, flexible income, and immediate professional respect? Discover the hidden opportunity of becoming a public official with the book, Becoming a Notary by Derek Spool. This beginner's guide provides the universal roadmap to launch your new career. You will learn the core mission of deterring fraud, the essential tools of the trade, and exactly how to protect yourself while building a respective business. Get your copy of Becoming a Notary on Amazon and step into a rewarding profession.

SPEAKER_02 0:38

Imagine, uh, just doing your job flawlessly. I mean, you check the identification, you ask all the right questions, you carefully press your rubber stamp onto a piece of paper, and you sign your name. It takes, what, maybe four minutes?

SPEAKER_03 0:50

Yeah, if that.

SPEAKER_02 0:51

Right? And you go home, you eat dinner, you sleep soundly, and then uh six months later, you are sitting in a sterile civil court deposition room watching your hundred thousand dollar insurance policy just completely evaporate.

SPEAKER_03 1:05

Oh, it's a nightmare.

SPEAKER_02 1:06

It really is. Yeah. You were suddenly looking at paying tens of thousands of dollars out of your own pocket to attorneys, all because of a transaction you barely even remember. So welcome to notary knowledge. For those of you listening, you probably think of this as a mundane, you know, trivial administrative chore.

SPEAKER_03 1:23

Most people do.

SPEAKER_02 1:24

Right. But today, we're looking at the massive hidden liability of the notary public.

SPEAKER_03 1:28

It really is the ultimate hidden front line. I mean, when you walk into a shipping store or a bank branch and hand over a few dollars for a stamp, it feels entirely inconsequential. But uh, beneath that rubber seal is this high-stakes, uncompromising legal landscape. It forms the absolute bedrock of our civil and commercial trust.

SPEAKER_02 1:47

And that is exactly our mission for this show. We're going to completely demystify this invisible architecture for you. Because whether you are a novice real estate investor closing your first deal or a paralegal, or just someone trying to get a car title transferred, you really need to understand the immense liability attached to this role. Absolutely. So we are pulling from a massive stack of sources today. We've come through state statutes spanning from New York to California, Texas, Florida, Massachusetts, and we also going through actual errors and omissions or EO court case files. These are the real-world lawsuits where things went horribly, devastatingly wrong.

SPEAKER_03 2:24

And uh to tie all of this statutory and case law together, we are leaning heavily on several expert frameworks. Most notably, Derek Spruell's authoritative text, The Notary Public Foundation. If you don't have it, it does a brilliant job of recontextualizing the notary, not as a clerk, but as an impartial guardian of truth.

SPEAKER_02 2:42

It's a must read, and I promise you, by the time we finish this analysis, you will never look at a property deed, a last will and testament, or even your own signature the same way again.

SPEAKER_03 2:51

Never.

SPEAKER_02 2:52

So let's start with the basic mechanics. Before we can analyze the catastrophic lawsuits, we have to establish what is actually happening when ink meets paper. Because as the sources emphasize repeatedly, it is not just stamping a document.

SPEAKER_03 3:05

Far from it. The notary is performing a highly specific, legally binding notarial act. And if you look at the foundation of almost all commercial and personal transactions in the U.S., they rely on two primary acts, the acknowledgement and the giraffe. And uh the legal system separates these two acts for very distinct, profound reasons.

SPEAKER_02 3:24

Let's take the acknowledgement first. Just from reading Sprule's framework and the state codes, the acknowledgement essentially serves as a mechanism to verify free will.

SPEAKER_03 3:35

That is the perfect way to frame it. I mean, the acknowledgement is the state's way of ensuring that a citizen is executing a document voluntarily without duress, coercion, or undue influence. Right. The notary is acting as the state's impartial witness to confirm two things. First, that the person standing in front of them is definitively who they claim to be, and second, that they genuinely intend to be bound by whatever contract they are signing.

SPEAKER_02 4:01

But here is the procedural quirk that I think is just utterly fascinating and it trips up even seasoned professionals all the time. For an acknowledgement, the physical signing of the document can actually happen in the past.

SPEAKER_03 4:13

Yes. The timeline of the signature is a crucial distinction here. If you are listening to this and you are selling a property, you could have signed that massive stack of deeds at your kitchen table, you know, last Tuesday.

SPEAKER_02 4:24

The ink is completely dry.

SPEAKER_03 4:25

Exactly. You do not need to sign it again. But today, you must physically appear before the notary, present your valid, unexpired ID, and verbally acknowledge to that official that the signature from last Tuesday is indeed yours and that you made it willingly.

SPEAKER_02 4:41

So the notary isn't verifying the act of signing, they are verifying the present-day reality of a past action.

SPEAKER_03 4:48

Precisely. You are confirming the reality of that past action in the present moment. This is the standard for documents that transfer massive amounts of wealth or authority, like real estate deeds or a durable power of attorney. The court system needs absolute assurance that nobody was standing over you in the shadows with a metaphorical club, you know, forcing you to sign away your assets.

SPEAKER_02 5:09

Wow. Okay, so if the acknowledgement is about protecting your free will, the girat seems to be about binding you to reality. The stakes elevate dramatically here.

SPEAKER_03 5:18

Oh, they do. The girat is the absolute truth act, and this is where the liability for the signer transforms. Unlike the acknowledgement, the timeline for a girat is rigid. You cannot bring in a pre-signed document. It is uh legally impossible to perform a girat on a signature that happened yesterday.

SPEAKER_02 5:36

Wait, so if I bring in an affidavit that I signed in my car before walking into the office, the notary has to essentially reset the clock.

SPEAKER_03 5:44

They have to force you to sign it again, right then and there. The statutory requirement for a girl is direct physical observation of the act of signing. The notary has to watch the pen move across the paper, but you know, the signature is only the first half of the equation.

SPEAKER_02 5:59

Right. Then comes the verbal binding.

SPEAKER_03 6:01

The oath. Once the ink is on the paper, the notary must administer a formal verbal oath or affirmation. They will literally ask you to raise your right hand and they will ask something like, Do you swear or affirm under penalty of perjury that the contents of this document are true and correct to the best of your knowledge?

SPEAKER_02 6:17

Let's pause on that exact phrase. Under penalty of perjury. Because that fundamentally changes what the document is. If I understand this correctly, you aren't just signing a piece of paper anymore, you are actively testifying.

SPEAKER_03 6:31

You are. When you look the notary in the eye and say, I do, you have just placed your own liberty on the line. Wow. If it's later discovered that the document contains a fabrication, say you lied about your assets on a financial affidavit, you haven't just breached a contract, you've committed a criminal offense, you can be prosecuted for perjury, and the notary stamp is the official state mechanism that locked you into that liability.

SPEAKER_02 6:54

So to put this into an analogy to help clarify the mechanics for everyone listening, an acknowledgement is essentially the legal system's coercion detector. It's making sure nobody is holding a gun to your head. But a girl is a lie detector. It is making you legally, criminally liable if the statements you are making are fabricated.

SPEAKER_03 7:12

Coercion detector versus lie detector is an excellent conceptual model. It separates free will from absolute truth. But notice the one non-negotiable factor that inextricably links both of these acts together. It is what Spruel and the other legal frameworks refer to as the golden rule of notarization.

SPEAKER_02 7:32

The physical presence mandate.

SPEAKER_03 7:33

A physical presence mandate. In a traditional paper notarization, this cannot be bypassed, negotiated, or waived. It cannot be done over a phone call. It cannot be done over a FaceTime chat or a Skype session.

SPEAKER_02 7:45

Right. None of that.

SPEAKER_03 7:46

It doesn't matter if the notary is your oldest friend, if they've known you for 30 years, and if they could recognize your voice in a hurricane, if you are not breathing the same air in the exact same physical space at the exact time the notarial act occurs, the execution is fatally flawed.

SPEAKER_02 8:02

And we are gonna dive into the ENO court cases later to see exactly how violating that physical presence rule just destroys people's lives and finances. But before we get to those disasters, let's examine the anatomy of the certificate itself, because the sources make it clear that a notary doesn't just slap a seal on a page and call it a day.

SPEAKER_03 8:20

No, not at all.

SPEAKER_02 8:21

The certificate, that block of text usually found at the very bottom of the document, is a highly regulated piece of testimony.

SPEAKER_03 8:27

That certificate is the notary's sworn statement to the world about what just happened in that room. It is a vital legal record. And a flawless certificate must contain what the industry calls the four W's. Where, who, when, and what.

SPEAKER_02 8:43

Let's skip the dictionary definitions here. Because if you deal with contracts regularly, you know what a venue block looks like. The where. State of X, County of Y. But the trap here isn't knowing what the venue is, it's the jurisdictional nightmare it represents, right?

SPEAKER_03 8:57

That is the exact friction point. The venue dictates the geographical location where the physical meeting actually occurred, not where the contract was drafted, not where the property is located, but where the notary and the signer were physically standing. This establishes jurisdictional authority. A notary is commissioned by a specific state. If a New York notary travels to Florida for a winter vacation and decides to do a quick favor for a friend down there by notarizing a document, they have operated completely outside their legal jurisdiction. The act is void. The venue block exists to explicitly expose or confirm that authority.

SPEAKER_02 9:34

And as we move into remote online notarization, or on, that definition of where gets incredibly complex. But we will touch on that technological headache later. Let's look at the second, W, the Who. This is the exact name of the signer. And just reading the sources, it is staggering how often this specific element ruins multimillion dollar transactions.

SPEAKER_03 9:54

It happens constantly, mostly due to shear administrative fatigue. A notary is busy, the signer is rushing them, so the notary stamps the page, signs their own name, and completely neglects to write the signer's name in the blank space that reads, Personally appeared before me, blank.

SPEAKER_02 10:08

Which essentially creates a blank check on a legal document.

SPEAKER_03 10:11

Exactly. If the who is missing, the certificate testifies to absolutely nothing. It is a sworn statement that someone appeared, but who? A county recorder's office auditing a property deed will reject that document outright. It's fatally flawed on its face.

SPEAKER_02 10:27

Then we have the when, the exact date. And this is where timelines become weaponized in litigation.

SPEAKER_03 10:33

Oh, absolutely. The when must be the exact present date of the Notarial Act. And you know, the temptation to manipulate this is immense. A real estate agent might beg a notary to backdate a certificate by one day so a locked-in interest rate doesn't expire.

SPEAKER_02 10:47

Yeah, you hear about that all the time.

SPEAKER_03 10:48

Or a lawyer might ask a notary to post-date a document. But the legal timeline of complex events relies entirely on the absolute truth of that date. Falsifying the when isn't just an error, it is often prosecuted as fraud. And finally, the Which loops us back to our first discussion. The what is a specific type of notarial act. The wording of the certificate must explicitly state the procedure. Did the person swear a binding oath of perjury, a girat, or did they simply acknowledge their signature? You cannot mix the wording and you cannot leave it ambiguous.

SPEAKER_02 11:22

The incredible thing here, diving deep into these state statutes, is just how uncompromising the system is. I mean, missing one element, leaving the venue blank, slightly smudging the ink on the rubber seal so the expiration date is illegible, it can cause a document worth $10 million to be thrown out of court. The rigidity feels almost archaic.

SPEAKER_03 11:41

It feels archaic because it is one of the oldest legal mechanisms we still use. But it has to be rigid. The stakes demand it. Because, as Spruell so eloquently outlines in his framework, the notary is performing a kind of legal alchemy. Alchemy. Yeah. They're taking a private instrument, which is essentially just a piece of paper with ink on it, and they are converting it into a public document.

SPEAKER_02 12:01

And we're going to get into exactly what that legal alchemy means in just a moment. But first, we're going to take a quick commercial break. And speaking of keeping all these rigid rules and records straight, if you are looking to streamline your journal process, you need to check out the OneLedger Notary e journal on the Apple App Store.

SPEAKER_03 12:19

It is a fantastic tool.

SPEAKER_02 12:20

It really is. It was crafted by the magnificent works team, and it just takes so much of the administrative stress out of the job. And for our listeners, if you use the code NOTARINO50, that's notaryNO50, you get 50% off the first year annual plan.

SPEAKER_03 12:36

And while you're upgrading your tools, be sure to encourage yourselves and your colleagues to buy the Notary Knowledge books by Derek Sproul and visit Notary Knowledge website. The resources there are just invaluable for both novices and veterans.

SPEAKER_02 12:49

All right, welcome back. So before the break, we were talking about this idea of legal alchemy, converting a private instrument into a public document. What does that actually mean, practically speaking?

SPEAKER_03 12:59

It means that by affixing that state sanctioned stamp, the notary is granting that piece of paper a legal presumption of authenticity. In the courtroom, it becomes prima facie evidence.

SPEAKER_02 13:10

Meaning on its face.

SPEAKER_03 13:12

Yes. On its face, without further investigation, the judicial system accepts that the signature is genuine. A judge doesn't have to halt a trial to subpoena a handwriting expert to prove the document wasn't forged. It streamlines the entire machinery of civil law.

SPEAKER_02 13:27

But and this is a massive structural but that entire streamlined system of trust hinges completely on one single fragile assumption, which actually brings us to a topic we discuss all the time on Foundational Fridays disqualifying interest and when to walk away.

SPEAKER_03 13:43

Yes, the impartiality imperative, the assumption that the human being wielding that stamp is totally unequivocally unbiased. If the notary has any skin in the game, the entire foundation collapses.

SPEAKER_02 13:53

So let's break down the ethical boundaries here, specifically financial interest versus beneficial interest, because this is where notaries start walking into absolute minefields.

SPEAKER_03 14:00

A direct financial interest is the most obvious red line. The notary stands to gain or lose actual capital as a direct result of the transaction. For example, you cannot notarize a property bead where you are listed as the buyer or the seller of the house.

SPEAKER_02 14:16

Right. You can't officially verify your own transfer of wealth, that's obvious. But what about the downstream financial interests?

SPEAKER_03 14:23

That is where professionals get themselves into deep trouble. Imagine a scenario where a real estate broker also happens to hold a notary commission. If the deal closes today, the broker makes a forty-five thousand dollar commission check. The mobile notary they hired is stuck in traffic. So the broker just pulls out their own notary stamp to notarize the buyer's signature.

SPEAKER_02 14:43

Just trying to push the deal across the finish line.

SPEAKER_03 14:45

Exactly. But doing that is illegal in almost every jurisdiction. That broker has a forty-five thousand dollar financial incentive for that document to be valid. Their impartiality is completely destroyed by the financial weight of the outcome.

SPEAKER_02 14:59

That makes perfect logical sense. But then we have beneficial interest, which I find a bit more insidious because it doesn't always involve a direct payout of cash.

SPEAKER_03 15:06

Right. A beneficial interest involves gaining a non-monetary, structural, or future advantage. This triggers any time the notary is named in the document in some authoritative capacity. Like you cannot notarize a last will and testament if you are named as the executor. You're receiving a transfer of authority which instantly disqualifies you.

SPEAKER_02 15:26

Which leads us directly into what I think is the most complicated area of impartiality: the family trap. When you read through the different state statutes regarding notarizing for relatives, it is a wild, contradictory patchwork.

SPEAKER_03 15:40

It is incredibly fragmented. And the reason is that family relationships inherently imply a shared beneficial interest.

SPEAKER_02 15:46

Let's look at the strict states first. Florida and Massachusetts take a very hard line. Florida explicitly bans you from notarizing for your parents, children, or spouse. Massachusetts bans you from notarizing for step relatives, half-siblings, and domestic partners.

SPEAKER_03 16:01

In those jurisdictions, the state has decided the risk of hidden financial benefit is simply too high. It's a blightline rule. Cross it, and your commission is revoked.

SPEAKER_02 16:09

Then you have the middle ground states: North Dakota, Oregon, Virginia, West Virginia. They prohibit notarizing for a spouse, but leave the door cracked for other relatives, though they heavily recommend against it.

SPEAKER_03 16:21

Because spouses share finances in a commingled way.

SPEAKER_02 16:24

But here's where it gets genuinely dangerous. States like Texas, Illinois, and California do not actually have a hard statutory ban on notarizing for most family members. I could read the Texas Notary Code, and I won't find a law that explicitly says you cannot notarize a document for your sister.

SPEAKER_03 16:42

That's correct. However, California is a prime example of why this is a massive trap, because it's a community property state. The web of who benefits from whose assets is incredibly tangled.

SPEAKER_02 16:53

Let's pose a hypothetical here. Imagine you live in Texas. It's a Tuesday night. Your brother comes over and needs a simple permission slip notarized so his kid can go on a school trip. No money is changing hands. The law doesn't explicitly ban it. So why shouldn't you just pull out your stamp, do your brother a solid, and get it done?

SPEAKER_03 17:09

To understand why you shouldn't, you have to look at what happens if that document is ever challenged in court. We have to go back to prima facian evidence.

SPEAKER_02 17:18

The judicial presumption that the document is valid on its face.

SPEAKER_03 17:21

Exactly. But if you notarize that travel permission slip for your brother, and it ends up in a brutal contested custody battle between your brother and his ex-wife.

SPEAKER_02 17:31

Oh, the ex-wife's lawyer is gonna have a field day.

SPEAKER_03 17:33

They will stand up in court and say, Your Honor, the impartial state witness who verified this document is the father's own sibling. Any judge will look at that and conclude you are inherently biased. And the very second the judge makes that determination, the prima facie status evaporates. The burden of proof aggressively shifts.

SPEAKER_02 17:53

So what does that mean practically?

SPEAKER_03 17:54

It means you and your brother now have to spend thousands of dollars in attorney fees just to prove that the signature wasn't forged. By trying to save him a 30-minute errand, you have invited a massive legal nightmare into your lives. Treat your stamp as if it is biologically locked out of your family tree.

SPEAKER_02 18:11

That is such a vital warning. So you've established your ethical boundaries, you've turned away your brother, you are sitting at your desk, ready to execute your duty. And then a stressed customer walks in, hands you a blank document, and begs for your help. Enter the danger zone, the unauthorized practice of law or UPL.

SPEAKER_03 18:31

This is perhaps the most common way that deeply well-meaning notaries get into serious legal jeopardy.

SPEAKER_02 18:37

Let's paint the picture. A customer comes in dealing with a medical emergency. They hand you a durable power of attorney. But at the bottom, there is no notarial certificate, just a blank line.

SPEAKER_03 18:49

The classic blank document dilemma.

SPEAKER_02 18:51

The customer says, I don't know what kind of notarization I need. You're the expert. What do you think? Now, you probably know that powers of attorney usually utilize an acknowledgement. Why can't you just say, Oh, you need an acknowledgement, print one out, and send them on their way?

SPEAKER_03 19:04

Because the very second you make that decision for them, you have committed the unauthorized practice of law. You've committed a crime.

SPEAKER_02 19:10

Just by choosing a piece of paper, that seems incredibly harsh.

SPEAKER_03 19:14

Choosing the certificate fundamentally alters the legal reality of the document. If you attach a jura, you are actively making the legal decision to place that citizen under a sworn oath subject to perjury. If you attach an acknowledgement, you decide they do not need to be under oath. Unless you hold an active license to practice law in that specific state, you have absolutely zero authority to make that determination.

SPEAKER_02 19:38

In Sproul's text, there is an analogy that perfectly encapsulates this. It compares being a notary to being trained in CPR.

SPEAKER_03 19:46

It is a phenomenal comparison.

SPEAKER_02 19:48

As a notary, you are the CPR lifeguard of the legal system. You are trained for a specific administrative procedure.

SPEAKER_03 19:54

Right.

SPEAKER_02 19:54

But giving legal advice, like telling a citizen which certificate to use, is like a lifeguard deciding to perform open heart surgery on the beach. The patient dies and you go to jail.

SPEAKER_03 20:04

That is the harsh reality. Notaries are strictly ministerial officials. And this strict prohibition goes much further than just choosing the certificate. It extends to explaining the contents of a document. Imagine a customer finalizing a divorce. They're about to sign a quick claim deed. They ask, if I sign this, does my ex still have a claim to the equity? You might know the answer with 100% certainty, but you cannot say a word. You have to say, I am not an attorney, and I cannot explain the legal consequences of this document to you.

SPEAKER_02 20:35

It feels like terrible customer service, but it's the only way to protect yourself, and the penalties are severe. In New York, giving legal advice can lead to criminal prosecution, heavy fines, and actual imprisonment.

SPEAKER_03 20:48

Imprisonment, yes, because bad legal advice can completely destroy a citizen's life.

SPEAKER_02 20:53

We are going to dive into the actual catastrophes next. But really quick, if you want more insights like this in a visual format, make sure to check out our video podcast, No Notary with Eddie Montez Travis and Marilyn's 90 seconds of notary. They are packed with quick, actionable advice for your daily practice.

SPEAKER_03 21:09

Okay, let's look at the actual errors and omissions, the ENO court cases from our sources. What happens when notaries ignore these rules?

SPEAKER_02 21:16

These cases are sobering. They show exactly how fast a routine Tuesday morning can turn into a multi-year financial nightmare. Let's start with careless mistakes. Case number one, the expired seal.

SPEAKER_03 21:28

A corporate employee accidentally grabbed a notary seal out of their desk that had expired a week prior. Because the seal was expired, the notarial act was legally invalid. The corporate document was rejected, and it ultimately cost the company $700 in administrative and delay fees.

SPEAKER_02 21:44

$700 for grabbing the wrong stamp. Case number two, the wrong certificate.

SPEAKER_03 21:49

A notary utilized an incorrect notarial certificate on a deed of trust. Because of that specific error, the county recorder's office rejected the deed. The property transfer stalled, triggering a loss. Suit. The notary had to be deposed, and while they were eventually dismissed, their EO insurance took a massive hit. The attorney fees alone amounted to $20,000.

SPEAKER_02 22:09

And their EO policy was only for $25,000. They nearly exhausted their entire safety net over one careless clerical mistake. Let's look at case number three: sloppy remote online notarization, or R on.

SPEAKER_03 22:22

A notary was performing a remote notarization over video. They failed to properly examine the signer's ID documents through the camera, and they allowed another person to be present in the room off camera, actively helping them answer the knowledge-based security questions.

SPEAKER_02 22:36

The KBA questions. If someone else is feeding them the answers, the entire security protocol is compromised.

SPEAKER_03 22:41

Exactly. The transaction was fraudulent. The notary was found liable for facilitating the fraud through negligence and incurred $75,000 in settlement and legal fees.

SPEAKER_02 22:51

$75,000. Out of a standard $100,000 policy. That is life-altering. Moving to outright fraudster schemes. Case number four. The car window rush.

SPEAKER_03 23:03

A notary was approached by a frantic signer who didn't even get out of their car. They pressured the notary to process the documents quickly through the rolled-down window. The notary caved to the pressure and missed a glaring detail. The name on the driver's license did not match the name on the deed.

SPEAKER_02 23:18

An imposter stealing a property.

SPEAKER_03 23:20

Yes. The true owner sued, and the notary was hit with a $55,000 settlement payout plus $18,000 in attorney fees.

SPEAKER_02 23:27

$73,000 gone because they didn't want to inconvenience someone. Case number five, the incomplete acknowledgement.

SPEAKER_03 23:35

A notary left a partially completed acknowledgement certificate stamped with their seal sitting on a table during a chaotic signing. The fraudster took it, copied the seal, and fraudulently transferred a property. The claim settled for $20,000. Guard your seal with your life.

SPEAKER_02 23:50

Do not leave blank forms lying around. Ever. Okay, rule bending. Case number six, the COVID Skype favor.

SPEAKER_03 23:58

During the pandemic, a notary wanted to do a personal favor for a friend in another state, so they performed the notarization over a Skype video call, utterly violating the physical presence rule. A bitter lawsuit followed over the estate, and the notary lost thousands of dollars in legal fees defending their illegal Skype favor.

SPEAKER_02 24:15

The rule is absolute. Do not bend the rules for anyone. Case number seven, knowingly accepting a fake ID.

SPEAKER_03 24:20

A notary admitted they suspected a signer's ID was forged, but proceeded anyway, likely due to pressure from a real estate agent to close a multimillion dollar deal. The fraudulent transfer cost the true owner $700,000. The notary's $100,000 EO policy was completely exhausted instantly, leaving them facing financial ruin.

SPEAKER_02 24:41

That is terrifying. But what if you do everything perfectly? Can you still get sued? Case number eight, the holographic will.

SPEAKER_03 24:48

A mobile notary flawlessly notarized a handwritten will for an elderly signer, but months later, the family erupted into a vicious probate dispute. Because the notary was the official witness, they were immediately subpoenaed. The notary had to spend $7,000 in legal fees just to get themselves extracted from the crossfire.

SPEAKER_02 25:06

They're doing their job perfectly. The stamp is a target on your back.

SPEAKER_03 25:10

Which brings us to our final section, the human element. It's time for our segment. Good question. What would you do? We have some specific scenarios from listeners dealing with these exact human edge cases.

SPEAKER_02 25:20

I love this segment. Let's get into it. First up, we have Derek from Nevada. Derek says, I was called to notarize a power of attorney for a man who had just gotten out of surgery. He was heavily medicated on pain meds. He had his ID, but he was slurring his words and kept falling asleep. What would you do?

SPEAKER_03 25:38

Derek, you have to walk away. This goes directly to assessing capacity. You are the last line of defense for that vulnerable patient. If the patient is heavily medicated and completely disoriented, they lack the cognitive capacity to understand what they are signing. You cannot, under any circumstances, proceed.

SPEAKER_02 25:55

Right. You pack up your stamp and you leave.

SPEAKER_03 25:57

Exactly.

SPEAKER_02 25:58

Okay, next we have Sophie from New York. A client brought in a handwritten letter they wanted notarized to send to a landlord. There was no certificate on it. They told me just to make it official, what would you do?

SPEAKER_03 26:09

Sophie, as we discussed with UPL, especially in New York, you cannot choose the certificate. You tell the client, I cannot decide what type of notarization this letter requires. You must choose between an acknowledgement or a juror, or you need to consult an attorney. Do not just attach a form to be helpful. It is practicing law without a license.

SPEAKER_02 26:28

And New York does not mess around with that. Next is Tyler from Georgia. A guy came into my shipping store and presented a homemade ID card. He claimed he was a sovereign citizen and didn't recognize state IDs, but the homemade card had his photo and name. He demanded I notarize his document. What would you do?

SPEAKER_03 26:46

Tyler, you refuse service. A notary must confidently walk away if the identification presented is insufficient. A homemade card is not a state-issued or federally issued unexpired ID. And remember, while you cannot refuse service for discriminatory reasons, refusing an invalid ID is a statutory requirement, not discrimination.

SPEAKER_02 27:07

Good answer. Nina from Virginia asks, a woman brought in a contract that she had already signed at home. She just needed a girlt. She said she could just swear the oath right there. What would you do?

SPEAKER_03 27:16

Nina, this is the coercion versus lie detector distinction. For girat, the physical signing cannot happen in the past. It is legally impossible. You have to tell her I need to watch you sign this document in my presence. She must re-sign it right in front of you before you administer the oath.

SPEAKER_02 27:31

Perfect. Last one, Leo from Indiana. I do mobile notary work at the county jail. An inmate needed a document notarized, but obviously they didn't have the driver's license on them. They only had their jail-issued wristband and ID badge. What would you do?

SPEAKER_03 27:44

Leo, this is a great edge case. Most states, including Indiana, have specific provisions for relying on a current state-issued inmate identification card issued by the Department of Corrections, or relying on credible identifying witnesses. You follow the specific statutory alternative for inmate ID in your state, log it meticulously in your journal, and proceed.

SPEAKER_02 28:06

Wow. We have covered an immense amount of ground today. We've traced the rigid anatomy of the certificate, the absolute necessity of physical presence, the dangers of financial and familial interest, UPL, devastating EO cases, and the deep complexities of human capacity.

SPEAKER_03 28:21

It is a dense high-stakes ecosystem. And without the notary, the courts would literally grind to a halt. Every contract, every deed would have to be proven from scratch. The notary stamp is the grease that allows commerce and civil law to function with trust and speed.

SPEAKER_02 28:35

So to you, the listener, the next time you are sitting across a desk from a notary, you will finally understand exactly why they are behaving the way they do, why they are scrutinizing your ID, making you swear an oath, and asking if you are acting of your own free will.

SPEAKER_03 28:49

They are protecting you and protecting the legal integrity of your document.

SPEAKER_02 28:53

It is a heavy responsibility. But as we wrap up, I want to leave you with a provocative thought. We've talked extensively about the physical presence mandate, the human-to-human interaction, the wet ink signature. But look at the world we are accelerating into right now.

SPEAKER_03 29:07

In digital era.

SPEAKER_02 29:09

Right. We are entering an era of synthetic identity fraud. AI-generated voices can mimic your loved ones perfectly over a phone call. We are seeing deep fake videos that are indistinguishable from reality in real-time video chats. As our digital world becomes increasingly untrustworthy, will this ancient, rigid tradition of the impartial human witness and the wedding signature eventually become obsolete? Or, ironically, will sitting in a physical room, breathing the same air with another human being, become the only thing we can truly trust to prove something actually happened.

SPEAKER_03 29:42

A fascinating and terrifying question for the future of law.

SPEAKER_02 29:45

It really is. Remember, if you have questions you want answered on the show, email your questions to Derek at Dereksbruel.com. We will try to answer as soon as possible at the end of our shows.

SPEAKER_03 29:55

Let's run the credits. Exec producer Derek Spruel, lead writer Marilyn Lee Trotter, Graphics Eddie Montez Travis, Music Thomas Bynum, produced by Magnificent Works Business Solutions.

SPEAKER_02 30:06

Don't just be listeners of the knowledge, be doers of the knowledge. This is notary knowledge. Until next time.

SPEAKER_01 30:13

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